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Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #100
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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 15 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 100

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Navy Corpsmen
         2. Bleedin' Rocks
         3. Beating up on TNE (or MT, or CT)
         4. Threat of kinetic energy
         5. Re: Orbital bombardment
         6. Re: Simple vs. Complex Skills: A possible solution?
         7. Re: Skill Specialization
         8. Re: Rock dropping again...no no no no no!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 96 00:15:36 -0600
Subject: Navy Corpsmen

On 06/14/96 at 09:34 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>> Neither my player nor I have actual military experience, so I'd welc
>> comments from the veterans on the list.  What do senior NCOs with a 
>> medical skill do in the late 20th century?

>In the Navy, they get assigned as "independent duty corpsman" to
>smaller ships. They are the closest thing to a doctor those ships
>have. And they wind up doing a *lot* of doctor type stuff. They just
>don't get paid as much. 

And perform a lot of the treatments at Navy Hospitals too.

I asked my Marine brother-in-law about it tonight.  Yes, senior
corpsmen are assigned to smaller ships, and they also are assigned to
larger Marine units in the field.  

My sister said she and the kids were treated by corpsmen at the the
base hospital at their last duty station (overseas), and *mostly* by
corpsmen back here.  They both said they'd rather have a corpsman
treating them than most doctors, because they take more time, listen
to what you have to say, and seem more careful.

My understanding is a senior corpsman can prescribe
drugs/medicines, perform minor surgery, and do just about anything
else a GP could do, BUT do it under the "supervision" of a regular
doctor.  From what they told me, it sounds like supervision is taken
*very* loosely.

>Anybody with that sort of experience could probably get an MD degree
>with just a bit more "theory" type work, and spending enough time
>sitting in classrooms to keep the AMA happy.

Last time I went to my doctor, I was actually treated by a
Nurse/Practitioner, a former corpsman.  He *did* spend more time with
me, and I liked his not-so-superior attitude.  After he talked to me,
he told me what tests he wanted to run, left the room to "talk to the
doctor", came back and walked me through the tests at the clinic (a
doctor wouldn't have stayed with me), he and the doctor "consulted" on
the test results, and he came back with a prescribed treatment.  Did
the treatment come from the doctor?  Well, the MD signed off on it,
but the N/P *really* did the prescribing..how do I know?  After he
came back with the prescription, he talked to me a little me and
*changed* the prescription.

So let's relate this to Traveller! <g>  

We have a *very* structured medical system in the USA biased toward
involving an MD in virtually every procedure.  Other countries have
other systems.  The UK system isn't like the US system.  The Japanese
do it differently, so do the Russians.

...and we are talking about societies 5000 years in our future. Does a
Sylean Medical Association even exist?  

I don't think we can model the medical practices of the Imperium on
the US medical system.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Michael Bailey <mickb@thehub.com.au>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:38:49 -0900
Subject: Bleedin' Rocks

OK, if we're debating rocks again, I'll add my A$0.02:

This is all speculation, so feel free to slap it down.

If you are going to accelerate a rock/ship/nerf ball/whatever to
relativistic velocities and use it to trash the local real estate, you need
a lengthy period of _sustained_ acceleration.

Why not assume that the thruster plates are unable to run continuously for
this required lengh of time - they overheat or something (mumble, mumble).
Long enough for in-system maneuvering, but after too long you're going to
trash your plates.

Comments?

Mick
Michael Bailey 

'quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand.  Ignorance and
prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.'
                             Rush, 'The Witchhunt'


------------------------------

From: David Gillon <100605.3625@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: 15 Jun 96 06:23:43 EDT
Subject: Beating up on TNE (or MT, or CT)

>> Next Error << (and variations)

This is getting repetitive. How would the TNE haters amongst us like it if those
of us who thought The New Era brought a lot of good things to Traveller started
referring to CT as Children's Traveller? (Kiddies Trav for short) The New Era
may have had a background some people disagreed with, but in general it featured
the most sophisticated writing Traveller has seen, and the loss of that is
something to be regretted, not crowed about.

Might I suggest that everyone out there accept that all three iterations of the
game had good features, even if they may have disagreed with some of them. Stop
damning a system simply because you didn't personally like some aspect of it and
accept that others may see value in it - there's a whole universe out there,
there should be room for all of us, and room to give respect to something that
people put a lot of work into, such as by calling it by its correct name instead
of something insulting that might have been semi-funny the first time it was
heard, but has rapidly grown stale and annoying.

                                David


------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:38:26 +0200
Subject: Threat of kinetic energy

One thought on a piece of discussion grabed from the kinetic energy is the
deadlyest weapon thread.

>Exactly. These high Isp drives have a low cross-section, but this
>merely concentrates the same amount of energy in a smaller area and
>for a much greater distance. Thus, *any* ship can wreak havoc on a
>city from orbit. Or destroy a space station. You're right that it's
>not actually a "planet-killer", but it just doesn't fit in with the
>"feel" of Traveller, IMHO.

Some other persons said something about modern ammunition with let the armor
melt and ignate fire. Wouldn't a space station have some defense weapons to
be able to destroy a kamikaze ship? Something like let the ship burn itself
away, using its own kinetik energy against it somehow? 

Wouldn't a normal, non-streamlined ship burn away in the atmosphere, anyway?
Woudn't it break apart because of the hull stress? Or wouldn't it possible
to destory it by let it expode and hoping that the fragments are small
enough to only produce some impressing glowing at the sky?

Some explatations should exists to keep the Traveller "feel", IMHO.

bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:38:21 +0200
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment

Hi!

Because the immense number of digits, I'll keep it short.

When invading a world, I can't believe that a sane soldier would agree in
using a one-way-ticket in a flying casket. An armored grav transport may be
a larget target but it's psychologically better and offers the opportunity
to retreat back to orbit.

Destroying the world by orbital bombardment isn't an option in my oppionion
because killing millions of civilians gives a very bad press and probably
even the invading fleet's commanders wouldn't give that order.

The defending army can't destroyed easily if their troops and command
centers are highly mobil. The invader also cannot destroy all supply-camps
or construction plants because he needs to support, too. It's the defender,
who has the larger resources and so has the better chances.

Derek Stanly wrote: 
>True.  Wasn't thinking in that direction.  I was actually pointing out that
>with modern parachuting equipment it's possible to get everyone as close
>together or as far appart as you want.  And with troopers in powered battle
>dress with tac-com and such I really don't think the guy's on the ground,
>unless they know exactly where you're landing are going to be able to put up
>much of a fight.  One man in battle dress can easily wade through a half
>dozen grunts providing none of them have panzerfausts.  Ain't battle dress
>wonderful?

But woudn't modern targetting equipment allow to automatically target each
intruder and burn him away? Something like an anti-parachuter gun? If they
use ordinary parachutes, it's enough to destroy their robes. Otherwise, it
might be possible to distorb their anti-grav units and let them drop like
stone to ground. Finally, the guy's on ground will probably have to same
battle dresses and the same weapons.

With my first question, which started this thread, I meant the capture of
the world, so Craig Berry list of actions would be true and the option to
blast away the surface of the planet isn't.

>1. Gain space superiority.
>2. Suppress ground defenses using ortillery.
>3. Land jump troops to clear a landing zone.
>4. Land grav combat vehicles to defend and expand perimeter.
>5. Land support units (repair, medical, commo, and so forth) to
>   enable offensive actions out of perimeter.

Let's assume 1. isn't possible. You can break space defense and get your
transports to the landing zone but reinforcement from other worlds might
normally prevent space superiority. However, they can't use ortillery either.

So 2. isn't an option for both sides.

My next question is, why not exchange 3. and 4. For me, it seems more
natural to more persevering heavy grav tanks than vulnerable infantry. To
capture ground installations, you'll need foot troops, of course, but to
establish a bridgehead you would need heavier combat equipment.

On the topic, that mass destorying weapons have bad PR, Norm Fenlason, said

>>have a way of getting out and once they do it becomes more and more
>>difficult for the military to do it's job effectively.
>
>Assuming a government responsive to its population.

Well, if not, they have perhaps fight a second war at home, supressing their
own people, too. It might work a couple of years, but rebellion would
probably occur.

bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:38:25 +0200
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Complex Skills: A possible solution?

>The idea is similar to Shadowrun (no! no! keep reading!  It's not that
>bad!) where they have a fairly small list of basic skills and then allow
>you to pick a specialization if you wish.  You can stay a generalist and
>get level-2 skill in all firearms, or you can specialize so that you get
>level-3 in pistol but level-1 in all other weapons.  

Sound good. Star Wars has a similar system, where you get additional dices
when specializing. Perhaps this is the only way to deal with the complexity
of a modern world in a game?

>Basically, if you get skill of a particular level, you can stay a 
>generalist and get that level of expertise in all aspects of the field, 
>or you can specialize, getting (level * 1.5) in your specialty and (level 
>*.5) in all other areas.  Specific values are open to modification, of 
>course, but I'd like to know what people think of the idea in general.

The factor or bonus would depend on the task system rules, I assume. Btw,
does anybody know what this system might look like?

bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:49:28 +0200
Subject: Re: Skill Specialization

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>> Probably the main reason for the success of fantasy roleplaying games set in
>> pseudo Middle Ages against science fiction system is their simplicity.
>
>Noty all are (or were) simple. And the ones that tried to be realistic
>didn't do well. <sigh>. Still games like Chivalry & Sorcery gave us
>nice reference works for when we *did* want to be realistic.

But was C&S a success? I doubt. Harnmaster has a very good world
description, but awful complex rules and also failed to become really
successful. On Germany the most successful RPG ("Das Schwarze Auge") has
also the easiest rules (about the complexity of D&D).

And a comment on the original subject. I think, it's easier to add more
skill then to drop existing skills. One good objection by someone was that
the character generation system has to allow the addition of more skills.

bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

From: Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 23:52:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Rock dropping again...no no no no no!

On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> 
> It's worth noting that giant-rock-dropping is only attractive because 
> thruster plates provide delta-V free of the rigours of conservation of energy;
> if you use reaction drives, giant rocks require so much energy to get into
> place that they aren't actually all *that* attractive compared to nuclear
> weapons. (The extreme case, of course, being the lifeboat-at-0.1c problem.)
> 
> Bruce Macintosh
> bmac@igpp.llnl.gov
> 

Giant rocks yes but a 100 tonne mass rock moving at 0.1c  would be nearly 
as dangerous even though it would completely vaporize before it hit the 
surface.

It's pointless to try to bend Traveller physics around the problem when 
it would be much easier to deal with it as one would in the real 
universe where it is a real problem. The mindset of the traveller 
society would be that only a psycopath would drop a rock on a 
planet. Anyone caught doing that would be treated like a psycopath.

BTW: This is the logical extension of the "smart crowbar" idea that 
bouncing around here too.

Chris
- --
      __o          "All I was doing was trying to get home from work."
    _`\<,_           -Rosa Parks
___(*)/_(*)___________________________________________________________
Christopher Sean Hilton                           <chris@vindaloo.com>
                           For pgp key finger: <chilton@shoga.wwa.com>

Microsoft: "I'll tell you where you want to go today!"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #100
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Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #101
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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 15 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 101

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Rock dropping again...no no no no no!
         2. RE: Gun Racks
         3. RE: Off Topic?  Sorry.
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #100
         5. To Bob Brown
         6. Gloating
         7. Re: background is the game 
         8. Thruster-Plate Speed Limits.
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #100
        10. Re: background is the game 
        11. Re: background is the game 
        12. Stuff on CD
        13. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
        14. Re: [T96#91] Various

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 10:11:42 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Rock dropping again...no no no no no!

> > It's worth noting that giant-rock-dropping is only attractive because 
>>thruster plates provide delta-V free of the rigours of conservation of energy;
> > if you use reaction drives, giant rocks require so much energy to get into
> > place that they aren't actually all *that* attractive compared to nuclear
> > weapons. (The extreme case, of course, being the lifeboat-at-0.1c problem.)
> > 
> Giant rocks yes but a 100 tonne mass rock moving at 0.1c  would be nearly 
> as dangerous even though it would completely vaporize before it hit the 
> surface.
> 
> It's pointless to try to bend Traveller physics around the problem when 
> it would be much easier to deal with it as one would in the real 
> universe where it is a real problem. The mindset of the traveller 
> society would be that only a psycopath would drop a rock on a 
> planet. Anyone caught doing that would be treated like a psycopath.
> 
> BTW: This is the logical extension of the "smart crowbar" idea that 
> bouncing around here too.

I think that the Imperial Rules of War need to be slightly rewritten.
Instead of a prohibition on the use of nukes, it should prohibit the use
of indiscriminate weapons of mass destruction.  This would include
rocks, and bio weapons.  Yield would be the isssue, though in the case
of rocks.  Crowbars taking out military units is fine, asteroids taking
out cities is wrong.

A nut could decide to do it---and maybe it happens.  A decent hook,
actually. in fact it was used in an old adventure in JTAS, wasn't it?

I am in favor of a delta v limit on t-plates to prevent a terrorist
weapon (city killer) from becoming a planet buster.  I lean towards just
reminding players/refs that the ship moving at very high relative
velocities to the junk in solar orbit is at reasonable risk of great
harm.  Enogh so that a planet killer will end up absorbing a huge amount
of energy from small impacts along the way.  Enough that it has a much
reduced chance of ever reaching its target (why intercept witj a missile
when an interplanetary dust grain will kill the thing just as dead?).

- -Merrick
> 
> Chris
> --
>       __o          "All I was doing was trying to get home from work."
>     _`\<,_           -Rosa Parks
> ___(*)/_(*)___________________________________________________________
> Christopher Sean Hilton                           <chris@vindaloo.com>
>                            For pgp key finger: <chilton@shoga.wwa.com>
> 
> Microsoft: "I'll tell you where you want to go today!"
> 


------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 11:35:29 -0500
Subject: RE: Gun Racks

> >>I'm from Vancouver so far be it for me to argue with someone from a s
> >>one third of all pickup trucks have gun racks  8-)
> 
> >You must have Texas confused with New York.  
> >The ratio here is more like 8 out of 10 :-).
> 
Actually, Maybe this person is thinking about California; Only about 1/3
of the pickups there had gun racks. Being from Tennessee, where
motorcycles have gun racks, this seems kind of silly.
What was this silly Canadians original problem, anyway? I seem to have
missed it.

------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 11:41:34 -0500
Subject: RE: Off Topic?  Sorry.

- ----------
> From: Armand Suarez
> To: 'Traveller Mailing List'
> Subject: Off Topic?  Sorry.
> Date: Friday, June 14, 1996 1:10 PM
> 
> >>2) In the marines, *everyone* carries a rifle, and knows how to use
it.
> 
> That's true in the Army too.
> 
> Armand
> 
> 
he. he he. hah hah HAH!. that is just too funny. I live right next to Fort
Campbell, KY.
even the 101st airborne has non-combat ratings. The Corps has NO no combat
ratings, all Primary MOS's are combat riflemen, with some marines on "Temp
assignment" to non-combat billets.
Being ex-navy, you can trust me on this.

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:07:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #100

>From: David Gillon <100605.3625@COMPUSERVE.COM>
>Date: 15 Jun 96 06:23:43 EDT
>Subject: Beating up on TNE (or MT, or CT)
>
>>> Next Error << (and variations)
>
>This is getting repetitive. How would the TNE haters amongst us like it if
those
>of us who thought The New Era brought a lot of good things to Traveller started
>referring to CT as Children's Traveller? (Kiddies Trav for short) The New Era
>may have had a background some people disagreed with, but in general it
featured
>the most sophisticated writing Traveller has seen, and the loss of that is
>something to be regretted, not crowed about.
>
>Might I suggest that everyone out there accept that all three iterations of the
>game had good features, even if they may have disagreed with some of them. Stop
>damning a system simply because you didn't personally like some aspect of
it and
>accept that others may see value in it - there's a whole universe out there,
>there should be room for all of us, and room to give respect to something that
>people put a lot of work into, such as by calling it by its correct name
instead
>of something insulting that might have been semi-funny the first time it was
>heard, but has rapidly grown stale and annoying.
>
>                                David
>
>

Here!  Here!

This is a good idea.  Course, David, I wouldn't expect too much, I've been
harping on this for months.  Hopefully MMT will be a good enough bridge to
unite all of us under a common denomonator and not be a "Mickey Mouse
Traveller."   No offence to the guys at IG or FFE and definitely none to MM.
I think they are trying their best to reconcile everyone without alienating
anyone.  Unfortunately, you will always have some people who don't care what
you do, if its not their ideas in print they wont accept it!

Thanks for the vocal agreement!


Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
      Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
      Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 17:32:58 -0800
Subject: To Bob Brown

>>Chris grow up son, the loss of anyone from this newsgroup should be
greated with saddness, because we as a group has failed to
accommodate all the aspects of this game we love.<<

Bob, I've got a saying for you:

"You can please some of the people some of the time, and some of the 
people all of the time, but you can't please ALL of the people ALL of 
the time."

I've debated various issues with Phil over the last several months, and 
rarely have I electronically discussed anything with someone who has 
less ability to LISTEN to anyone else's opinion objectively.

I don't lament his loss to this list, nor do I think the goal of the 
list or the game for that matter, should be to accommodate every single 
player. I've played the game since 1980, from CT through TNE. When I 
heard the new game was going to use CT as its basis, I wasn't terribly 
pleased, but I didn't bellyache about it either. I will continue to 
follow Traveller avidly.

Now that Phil feels the shoe's on the other foot, he's flipping the 
board, collecting his toys and going home. Well, good riddance!

>>We can do without your petty gloating, how old are you?<<

If you really must know, I was born in -2551 Imperial dating. And as far 
as "doing without" my petty gloating, I was far from alone in doing so, 
Bob, old boy. 

>>I really hope T4 will be a good product, though I fear it'll be
something less.<<

If your expectations are too high, you will undoubtedly be disappointed. 
Just realize that the makers of the game are doing their damnedest to 
make a quality marketable product. And make the best of it.

- --Chris



------------------------------

From: Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 17:36:11 -0800
Subject: Gloating

Paul Walker wrote:

>> I even
seem to recall that when T4 was announced as "a return to CT in light of
twenty years of RP experience" Phil was the first to gloat.  If you 
don't
remember, I'll try to dig up the message in my files for you.<<

I seem to remember that "Ha ha" may have been one of his statements.

Please _do_ look it up and quote it on the list. It'll be all the more 
pleasurable to read now that Phil is eating crow.

- --Chris



------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:23:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: background is the game 

Without the Imperium, Traveller is just a set of rules.  Rules are easy to 
write.  Anyone can write rules.  I've written enough games to have found 
that the rules are the easy part.  

The only thing that makes Traveller worth buying is the Imperium
background, just as the only thing that makes GURPS worth buying is the
plethora of wonderful worldbooks which are fully compatible with the 
GRUPS rules.  There are a hell of a lot of games out there now, we don't 
need more sets of rules.  I'll be buying T4 for the gadgets and aliens 
(which are both important parts of the background) and the history.
When CT came out there were no SF games, so *just* rules would sell.  
This has not been true for a *long* time.  T4 will need to give folks a 
reason to play it and not GRUPS Space.  Rules alone won't do it (even 
tough I don't much like GURPS rules).

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com




------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 15:57:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Thruster-Plate Speed Limits.

Hi all.  

Regarding the problem of the "planet killing launch", I have an
idea.  Marc Miller has stated (in his "Foundations of Traveller" post)
that Thruster plates are gravitically based and that they work by pushing
off worlds and suns.  Could we not therefore say that the effectiveness of
T-plates drops with distance from these bodies?  This would put some sort 
of limiting factor on speeds, would it not?  For instance, you could not 
"accelerate in from pluto" because you would lose thrust as you moved 
away from the planet.  You'd drift until you came across another body to 
push against.  

This might also solve the problem of conservation of energy.  Simply say 
that by some mumbo-jumbo the the ship robs momentum from the world it is 
pushing against.

I haven't thought through the specifics of this, so feel free to bash away.  
I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I don't remember the 
conclusions reached.

Happy Travelling,
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 13:46:49 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #100

On 15 Jun 96 at 12:07, Paul Walker spewed:

> anyone.  Unfortunately, you will always have some people who don't care what
> you do, if its not their ideas in print they wont accept it!
> 

Gotta second this.

Funny thing is, I remember reading in 1 of Joe Heck's postings of the 
AOL conferences that Marc was taking the tack that since he wasn't 
going to be able to do what everybody wanted, he was going to do what 
he wanted and hope that enough people liked it...

I think he had the right tack.  Not everybody is going to like 
everything about T4, but frankly it sounds like its going to be 
taking some of the best parts from each:  Task resolution similar to 
MT, Ship design based on FF&S (& simplified iterations of it), and 
character generation based on CT, with good ideas stolen from MT & 
TNE.  Looks like it'll be a blend of some ideas from all 3 previous 
systems, and some new stuff as well...

Personally, I think the 2 best ideas he had was not rewriting any of 
the canon (including virus), and by stating that JTAS will support 
all eras.  This essentially means that he'll be supporting all 3 
previous incarnations of the game, while developing an independent 
4th.  This "should" have the effect of alienating as few people as 
possible.  But, there are some people who are going to take the "One 
True Faith" approach to whatever era is their favorite.  So be it.  
As long as they are willing to realize that others might have 
different ideas and different opinions...  This is where Phil fell 
down.  On the other hand, Chris, you could probably tone down the 
rhetoric a little bit as well...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 13:46:50 -0800
Subject: Re: background is the game 

On 15 Jun 96 at 12:23, John R. Snead spewed:

> Without the Imperium, Traveller is just a set of rules.  Rules are easy to 
> write.  Anyone can write rules.  I've written enough games to have found 
> that the rules are the easy part.  
> 

I couldn't have said it better.

> The only thing that makes Traveller worth buying is the Imperium
> background, just as the only thing that makes GURPS worth buying is the
> plethora of wonderful worldbooks which are fully compatible with the 
> GRUPS rules.  There are a hell of a lot of games out there now, we don't 

I am of the opinion, even if I don't like parts of the history, the 
amount of development put into the history of the Imperium, which 
almost rivals that of Star Trek, and dwarfs Star Wars, that without 
the Imperium backdrop (in whatever form, Virus, Rebellion, 
Pre-Rebellion), Traveller would have died a long time ago.  

Plus there is a good side/dark side to the Imperium, which makes it feel a 
lot more real to me than either one.  In Star Trek, the heroes are 
always white knights, the villains are always humans in funny suits.  
Hell, I've seen campaigns in Traveller where the PC's were being 
almost as scummy as the people they were trying to doublecross, 
defeat, or stop.  The nice moral dilemmas presented in the game at 
times (lots of times, in my adventures), just make the future seem 
more real.

> When CT came out there were no SF games, so *just* rules would sell.  
> This has not been true for a *long* time.  T4 will need to give folks a 
> reason to play it and not GRUPS Space.  Rules alone won't do it (even 
> tough I don't much like GURPS rules).

My point as well.  Just put the background in the back of the book, 
not in the middle of the character generation system, as was done in 
TNE.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 16:22:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: background is the game 

On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> I am of the opinion, even if I don't like parts of the history, the 
> amount of development put into the history of the Imperium, which 
> almost rivals that of Star Trek, and dwarfs Star Wars, that without 
> the Imperium backdrop (in whatever form, Virus, Rebellion, 
> Pre-Rebellion), Traveller would have died a long time ago.  

Definitely.  Even a casual glance at the current RPG market will show the 
attraction of the setting VS the rules.  

> Plus there is a good side/dark side to the Imperium, which makes it feel a 
> lot more real to me than either one.  In Star Trek, the heroes are 
> always white knights, the villains are always humans in funny suits.  

And strangely, no matter where they go in the universe (even to a 
quadrant never visited by humans), everyone they encounter speaks 
English.  What an amazing coincidence. :)

> Hell, I've seen campaigns in Traveller where the PC's were being 
> almost as scummy as the people they were trying to doublecross, 
> defeat, or stop.  The nice moral dilemmas presented in the game at 
> times (lots of times, in my adventures), just make the future seem 
> more real.

Right.  The Imperium isn't some benevolent entity run for the benefit of 
all intelligent races.  They have rivals that aren't portrayed as evil, 
as the Klingon's originally were (and now, the Cardassians and Kazon).  

And, of course, as you point out the characters aren't expected to be on 
some moralistic mission to bring sweetness and light to the universe.  
The characters are expected to have their own goals and ethics, developed 
by each individual player.  

That's about as realistic as you can get.

> My point as well.  Just put the background in the back of the book, 
> not in the middle of the character generation system, as was done in 
> TNE.

Yup.  As I've said before, the format taken in The Traveller Book works 
well.  The rules are up front, the setting and a few adventures are in 
the back.  ('course, in T4 I'd expect to see a little more of the setting 
than was in The Traveller Book.)

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: 15 Jun 96 17:29:07 EDT
Subject: Stuff on CD

>> I personally love the idea of a searchable CDROM with all the game stuff on
it.  However, it strikes me that most of us don't have our computers right where
we're playing.  Though in most instinces they are convenient, but some of us,
like me go to a friends place and he, the heathen, doesn't even own a computer.
<<

This is the situation with me as well. However, I try to create as much of my
adventure as possible _before_ the game; NPCs, ships, vehicles, maps and so on.
This I do on a PC - mainly because being a Computer Guy, I can't write worth
shnit any more. To do this, I have a wide spectrum of utilites and proggies. The
addition of a CD with the core Traveller rules would be a great idea for me.

HWF


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 16:21:46 -0600
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

At 08:38 pm 6/14/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>On Fri, 14 Jun 1996, David J. Golden wrote:
>
>> >   Three words: Deep Meson Sites. Undestroyable from orbit, though you can
>> >blind their sensors *if* you can find them. (Personally, I favour neutrino
>> >detectors as a primary targetting sensor - no emissions to lock onto, and
>> >are great for targetting fusion-powered starships)
>> 
>>         And just as handy for targetting fusion-powered Deep Meson Sites...
>> even if you separate them, your DMS is worthless once I nail the power
source...
>
>   Ahhh, but on planets we have the luxury of geothermal power sources...

        Then no need for even a "handwaving" neutrino sensor ... should show
up reasonable well to a sensitive thermal scan.

        And your DMS will probably show up as a masscon anyway ... something
we had the technology to detect on early lunar flybys. We've got the Earth's
gravitational field fairly well mapped as well -- absolutely critical when
you're targetting ICBMs.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 96 19:00:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#91] Various

T::>>about 60.  The idea is to attract new players.  You do that by
 ::>>building an elegant, easy to learn, easy to use system, along with a
 ::>>well developed background.

T::>The well developed background should be left to the GM to create.
 ::>Classic Travellers greatest strength was that no explainations
 ::>were given.  All the rules were mere frameworks upon which the
 ::>GM could build consistant roleplaying situations.

 But not everyone that plays RPGs feels they have the kind of
 imagination necessary to do this.  A background "canon" relieves
 them of the need to do this.  It also does not prohibit the GM who
 _can_ do this from doing so.  The first Traveller GM I ever had
 was like this.  He never ran anything but the published
 adventures.  Since I had not started purchasing Traveller at that
 point, nothing was "spoiled" for me; I still remember how much I
 enjoyed leading a party that "solved" the Annic Nova.

 Some GMs that _can_ manage their own adventures still like _their_
 work to conform to "the real universe" as the publisher envisions
 it.  I'm like this, because at times, my players and I have taken
 turns GMing, and I also had an agreement with some other local GMs
 to allow character/materil "exchange" - in order to ensure that
 nobody screwed up anyone else's campaigns, we agreed to use the
 GDW background, and to discuss before running anything that
 represented a potentially serious departure from the "canon".

T::>>   TNE had it's major flaws (like Virus & only reaction drives).  It did have
 ::>>some strong points though.  The character creation system was much stronger
 ::>>than CT.  The task resolution system didn't drive GM's to pack asprin like

T::>In what way was Next Errors character creation system stronger than Classic
 ::>Travellers system?  Or do you mean that the system gave charators more skills?

 T:TNE did seem to have a higher level of skill generation than T
 or MT.  But what I felt was the best part of T:TNE's character
 generation was the concept of "contacts".  For some reason, it
 never occurred to me to implement this in T or MT.  After some
 recent discussion here, I see how I _could_ implement it in T, and
 therefore, I assume, in IG/MMT.

T::>>type design rules included in the main book.  The rules even include
 ::>>reactionless drives!

T::>Actually, my point is that the rules shouldn't give me reactionless drives!
 ::>I feel that explaining the technology should be left up to the GM as
 ::>part of their own campaign background!  If reactionless drives are
 ::>part of IGs published background I have no problem with that.  Look at
 ::>what happened when GDW made a guess on computer technology in book 2.
 ::>The rules should explain how the MDrive is used, not what the MDrive is!

 To an extent, I agree - but to an extent, I also disagree.
 Certain kinds of technology are going to have potentially
 significant effects on the background, and certain kinds of
 changes to the background have a major effect on the entire feel
 of the game.  For example, if Jump engines can transmit energy
 into and out of Jump space, then FTL communications become
 possible, and this potentially changes one of the core assumptions
 of Traveller, which is that a ship is the fastest way to get info
 from point a to point b.  This kind of universe is going to have a
 completely different "feel" from the canonical universe.  Thus, I
 the publisher must, in the process of explaining the design of the
 system, must provide the rationale for the assumptions that I have
 made.  You're free to change those assumptions - but you need to
 know what you're changing, first.

 The computer rules of T _were_ an abortion.  I (and the GMs I
 exchanged with) chucked those out immediately, and wrote a set of
 rules that we felt were more realistic.  We had no compunctions
 about doing this (our discussions were only to ensure we all
 agreed on _what_ rules to use), because no rationale was given,
 and we felt that our changes did _not_ significantly alter the
 "feel" of the canonical universe.

T::>>  Because there are enough gearheads out there to make it worthwhile
 ::>>to IG ($ wise) to do so.  There is also all the designs that will pop

T::>If that were true than GDW would still be publishing Next Error source
 ::>books with page after page of nothing but pictures of grav tanks.

T::>>   There was a poll taken, and the results showed that most folks who
 ::>>used all three design systems perfered FF&S.  It also showed that there
 ::>>was a need for a 'Q&D', plug & play design system (like Book 2).

T::>That poll again!  62 people do not consitute 'most folks'.  Any survey that
 ::>asks people to respond is neither accurate or meaningfull.  Especially
 ::>if the sample group is small (such as internet users who like to read
 ::>Traveller mailing list).

 30 responses to a survey constitute a "statistically significant"
 sample.  The primary flaw in that survey was that it was
 self-selecting, not that it had a small sample size.
 Self-selecting surveys tend to select the "extremists" in any
 population; if the survey questions are biased, you'll tend to get
 more responses from those who disagree with the bias.

 I never responded to that survey, as I recall.  My view pretty
 much matches what the survey showed - Having an FFS-type system is
 required, for when a gearhead like me needs/wants to sit down and
 figure out how big to make the glove compartment, and how much
 power the courtesy light inside it requires; but one of the first
 things I did with FFS was to build half a list of standard
 components to just plug together when I needed the general info on
 a ship, and the designs that came from that which I felt were
 generally good enough to be a "standard" went into a folder for
 preselection as needed.  Having all three kinds of systems, _and_
 _making_them_compatible_, gives you the ability to satisfy
 _everyone_ - not just the gearheads who like to calculate the
 power consumption of LEDs on the consoles, not just the "gimme a
 ship and don't bother me" shootemup GMs, and not just the "hey, I
 need a non-standard ship like this - but I don't really care about
 whether the lights are low-power blues or high-power yellows".

 If you don't agree with the FFS philosophy, don't use it

T::>>> I repeat, the more T4 adopts from & therefore comes to resemble TNE the
 ::>>> more people will identify it with TNE. And that'll be a big negative,
 ::>>> for sure.

T::>>  If T4 is just a reissue of CT, why bother?  It has been 20 years, and
 ::>>the RPG industry has learned some lessons (like it doesn't pay to argue
 ::>>with T$R lawyers :-<).  There are some good features from TNE & MT that
 ::>>IG should look to including in T4, as well as things that should be left
 ::>>by the wayside.

T::>Good features?  MT was nothing more than an error ridden reprint of material
 ::>for CT that had appeared in JTAS and elsewhere.  With the expection of
 ::>blending background with basic rules MT offered nothing new to the game.

 True.  But for me, that was actually a good thing; most of JTAS
 was out of print by that time, so I had no way of getting that
 materil.  I also liked the addition of the task system.

T::>Next Error was a complete rewrite of the rules and a further mixing of
 ::>background and framework.  And while the T$R lawsuit hurt GDW they lost
 ::>because only a 'few gear heads' had any interest in their games.

 The T$R lawsuit hurt GDW - but I think that GDW's ultimately fatal
 mistake happened well before that lawsuit - when they stopped
 concentrating on their premier line and tried branching out into
 other genres and other systems.  T:2300 (later called 2300AD)
 offered nothing over Traveller, and had no connection with
 Traveller, except the (original) name.  Dark Conspiracy had
 nothing going for it - by that time, gothic horror gaming was
 already pass.  Cadillacs and Dinosaurs was an idea whose time had
 not yet come - and hopefully never will!  Dangerous Dimensions
 (Dangerous Journeys) was an attempt to take market share from
 Dungeons and Dragons - and by that time, T$R had such a commanding
 position in that market (and such a commanding number of bucks to
 protect that position) that anyone could have seen that any
 attempt would have been foredoomed.  To then ask E. Gary Gygax, of
 all people, to be the driving force behind it was effectively
 waving a red flag in front of a bull, and saying "sure, go ahead,
 sue us."  Not that EGG necessarily did a bad job (never looked at
 it; don't know) - but almost anything in the pre-technological
 high fantasy field was risky, simply because of T$R's notoriety
 in the field - any new entrant would virtually have _had_ to look
 derivative.

 GDW was a small company, always - what was the cost to Traveller
 development of all of these other projects, not to mention the
 ill-fated lawsuit? Certainly, it was pretty high, as I saw more
 stuff from DGP than from GDW - and it was of higher quality, since
 DGP wasn't dividing their efforts. When people started losing
 faith in Traveller, because of an apparent lack of both interest
 and support from GDW, _that's_ when it became apparent that GDW
 was in trouble - and in spite of their protestations otherwise,
 they stayed in trouble right to the end.

 Just out of curiosity - can you think of any RPG company that
 "made it" - independently - in more than one genre (Don't count
 Steve Jackson Games; they've licensed quite a lot of their
 setting materil from other publishers)? Or that had more than one
 top-selling game?

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  SYSTEM ERROR:  press F13 to continue...


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 16 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 102

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: COnversion Please
         2. Re: [T96#91] Various
         3. The Art of Not Being Seen
         4. Planertary Invasions
         5. More good reading
         6. psychiatry
         7. Re: Gun Racks
         8. Re: Bleedin' Rocks
         9. "alignment" in Traveller
        10. RE: Off Topic? Sorry.
        11. Re: background is the game 
        12. Re:  QSDS Corsair
        13. Stuff on CD
        14. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 18:55:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: COnversion Please

On Sat, 15 Jun 1996, Tom Miller wrote:

> Is it possible for someone to convert the FFSLITE system found on Dave
> Golden's page from Word 6 to Microsoft Works for Windows 3.  I've tried just
> loading it up but it won't convert it on it's own.

I can't load it into WordPerfect for Windows 6.0 either.  Heck, even a 
straight ASCII conversion would be nice.  

Similarly, the spreadsheets can't be loaded into my copy of Quattro Pro 
for Windows.  It can load Excel for DOS files, but not Excel for Windows 
files. :(  Again, even an ASCII delimited file would be nice, and it's a 
conversion that should be available in any spreadsheet program.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 19:13:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: [T96#91] Various

On Sat, 15 Jun 1996, JEFF ZEITLIN wrote:

>  If you don't agree with the FFS philosophy, don't use it

Right.  As one of the fans of QSDS and Book 2, I have to say it's time to=
=20
end this particular argument.  Each segment now has a design system=20
targeted to it - QSDS, FF&S Light, and FF&S ReWrite - and all are=20
compatible.  There's nothing left to argue about.  I'd say FFE, IG, David=
=20
Golden, and Guy "wildstar" Garnett came up with the perfect solution.


>  The T$R lawsuit hurt GDW - but I think that GDW's ultimately fatal
>  mistake happened well before that lawsuit - when they stopped
>  concentrating on their premier line and tried branching out into
>  other genres and other systems.  T:2300 (later called 2300AD)

Hmmm.  An interesting idea.  I don't know how much I resembled the=20
average gamer of the time, but for a while I was purchasing everything=20
GDW came out.  I did that because I thought so highly of Traveller.  But=20
after buying so many products that turned out to be not to my liking=20
(and, really, easily replicated using Traveller rather than learning (and=
=20
supporting!) a bunch of different systems), I stopped buying GDW products=
=20
other than Traveller items.  After GDW's support of MegaTraveller slacked=
=20
off, I stopped buying all GDW products.  Maybe a lot of others did that,=20
too.=20

>  Just out of curiosity - can you think of any RPG company that
>  "made it" - independently - in more than one genre (Don't count
>  Steve Jackson Games; they've licensed quite a lot of their
>  setting materi=E9l from other publishers)? Or that had more than one
>  top-selling game?

Hmmm.  Depends on what you mean by "made it," Jeff.  Off the top of my=20
head, FASA did OK with both Star Trek and Shadowrun - at least in my=20
hometown! :)  I don't have sales figures or anything.  And, this=20
evaluation depends on whether you consider Star Trek and Shadowrun to be=20
different genres (Science Fiction and Cyberpunk) or not (both are SF).

Perhaps a good counter-example would be Hero Games.  Back in the early=20
80's, they had several genre products out.  Champions was the only truly=20
successful one.  Later, when they brought it all together under a unified=
=20
Hero System rules set, the other settings (Fantasy Hero, Western Hero,=20
Cyber Hero, etc.) still did very poorly when compared to sales of the=20
Champions products.

As for more than one top-selling game - no, I can't think of ANY=20
companies that did that, concurrently or otherwise.  But then, I'm not an=
=20
RPG industry expert - mebbe someone else can think of an example.


- -Joe
___________________________________________________________________________=
___
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 17:41:33 -0700
Subject: The Art of Not Being Seen

At 06:24 PM 6/14/96 -0400, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> writes:
>
>> The bad guys have had days at least to know this is coming.  More than
>> enough time to hide from orbital recon.  I was part of an experiment in 1985
>> where we hid a Mechanized Brigade in the middle of the desert for a full
>> day.  The satellites could not see us.  :) 
>
>Can you tell us any of the details? Or are they all classified?

Well, from a PFC's point of view, it seemed to involve way to much shovel
work while in MOPP4 gear (full chemical warfare gear).  What was new was the
cammo nets that we erect over the vehicles.  Those had tech-reps hovering
around them like nervous hens.  I heard rumors of other odd goings-on, but
for me it was hiding in the bottom of a well camoflagued hole.  (Which I
shared with a scorpion for a brief time, but that's another story...)

We found out that the experiment had worked back when we got back to Ft.
Benning, and were given a four day weekend for our good work.


# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 18:22:53 -0700
Subject: Planertary Invasions

At 08:00 AM 6/15/96 -0400, Stefan Aust wrote:

>When invading a world, I can't believe that a sane soldier would agree in
>using a one-way-ticket in a flying casket. An armored grav transport may be
>a larget target but it's psychologically better and offers the opportunity
>to retreat back to orbit.

Let me put it this way:  For nearly 50 years, the US Army has kept an
infantry division in Korea.  The terrain is murderous, the weather goes from
sub-zero blizzards, to 100 degree summers.  A large segment of the South
Koreans don't want us there.  And in the case of war with the North, the 2nd
Infantry Division will be attacked by at *least* 6 NK Division.. two of them
armored.

People volunteer to go there.  I volunteered to go there.

Soldiers do the hard jobs for a variety of reasons.. whether out of desire
to "be all that they can be", a thirst for adventure, or a true sense of duty.

As for transports being better psychologically...  you've never been
buttoned up in an M-113 APC, unable to see, hear, or run away.  You are a
sitting target for any Hind helicopter or RPG gunner.  That is nerve racking
to say the least.  Any infantryman worth his salt wants to be in his natural
enviroment: face down in the dirt behind a tree.

>Destroying the world by orbital bombardment isn't an option in my oppionion
>because killing millions of civilians gives a very bad press and probably
>even the invading fleet's commanders wouldn't give that order.

Dead men tell no tales.  But to use a planet's resources, you need the
infrastructure.  That's why the German Reich were so happy to set up Vichy
France.

>The defending army can't destroyed easily if their troops and command
>centers are highly mobil. The invader also cannot destroy all supply-camps
>or construction plants because he needs to support, too. It's the defender,
>who has the larger resources and so has the better chances.

Hit the transportation grid.  Something train-like will survive well into
the Imperium.  Don't believe me?  Try designing a grav vehicle capable of
carrying 900,000 tons of frieght at 75mph.

>But woudn't modern targetting equipment allow to automatically target each
>intruder and burn him away? Something like an anti-parachuter gun? If they
>use ordinary parachutes, it's enough to destroy their robes. Otherwise, it
>might be possible to distorb their anti-grav units and let them drop like
>stone to ground. Finally, the guy's on ground will probably have to same
>battle dresses and the same weapons.

Dead batteries, system destroyed by explosion, contractor skimped.  As for
battledress, that is very a expensive item; better to spend the money on
Light Anti-Armor Weapons (issued by the US as rounds of ammo rather than
weapons.)

>With my first question, which started this thread, I meant the capture of
>the world, so Craig Berry list of actions would be true and the option to
>blast away the surface of the planet isn't.
>
>>1. Gain space superiority.
>>2. Suppress ground defenses using ortillery.
>>3. Land jump troops to clear a landing zone.
>>4. Land grav combat vehicles to defend and expand perimeter.
>>5. Land support units (repair, medical, commo, and so forth) to
>>   enable offensive actions out of perimeter.
>
>Let's assume 1. isn't possible. You can break space defense and get your
>transports to the landing zone but reinforcement from other worlds might
>normally prevent space superiority. However, they can't use ortillery either.
>
>So 2. isn't an option for both sides.
>
>My next question is, why not exchange 3. and 4. For me, it seems more
>natural to more persevering heavy grav tanks than vulnerable infantry. To
>capture ground installations, you'll need foot troops, of course, but to
>establish a bridgehead you would need heavier combat equipment.

The Guide to Killing Tankers:  Strip them of their infantry.  Tankers are
vulnerable to infantry, and not really able to respond..  They are trapped
inside, for fear that the first time they stick their head outside a hatch,
7.62mm of vengence will meet your skull at 2600fps.

Think back to every invasion in WWII.. Armor led *one*, at Dieppe (sp?),
where the Canadians got their heads handed to them.  D-Day was spearheaded
by 4 Airborne Divisions.  Strangely enough, you have to make it safe for the
tanks, and their immense logisical tail.


# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 18:31:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: More good reading

>From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>

I agree with David's suggestions, and would add the Dominic Flandry series
by Poul Anderson.  _Ensign Flandry_, _Flandry of Terra_, _Agent of the
Terran Empire_, and _Flandry, Defender of Terra_ (and some other books
involving his successor) which seem to be re-released every few years,
compile nearly all of the Flandry stories in chronological order (i.e., in
terms of Flandry's life; the order of publication or writing is, I think,
completely different).  I've always thought that Traveller's creators were
much inspired by these stories, which have exotic atmospheres; unusual local
governments; varying tech levels; and an empire and nobles.


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 18:31:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: psychiatry

I started with the premise that Traveller is a flexible game, in which the
referee can make up a skill if it's needed for his or her particular
campaign.  For this reason, the official skill list should not be overlong.
Specifically, medical skill should not be subdivided into many sub-skills,
like first aid and psychiatry (and dentistry, podiatry, ophthalmology,
etc.).  Nevertheless, a case can be made for having each of these skills in
a particular campaign (e.g., one revolving around the INS St. Elsewhere, a
Imperial Navy hospital ship travelling through the Spinward Marches after
the Fifth Frontier War).  

The following are my last comments on psychiatry as a potential skill.  I'm
not suggesting that it be an "official" skill.

>From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>

>>If psychiatry were a separate skill, it would be used in, for example, the
>>following ways:
>>- -to diagnose another character 

>These are all easily covered by existing medical skill.

They don't have to be (and notice the locution here; Traveller is nothing if
not flexible).  Often a family practitioner (med-3) will examine a patient
and conclude: "He has a mental problem, and needs to see a psychiatric
specialist.  I can't help him."  
One approach in game terms is the following:  The family practitioner
applied his med-3 (and probably edu/5) to the task "diagnose illness," which
is always an uncertain task. The psychiatrist (med-3, psych-2, maybe,
following my model that a psychiatrist is trained as an M.D., then gets
specialized training) would also apply his psych skill, possibly to reduce
difficulty level rather than as a DM.

>>- -in place of interrogation skill
>
>Why not just use interrogation?

The party may not have a member with interrogation.  In Traveller, there is
usually more than one way to skin the cat.  If you don't have cat-skinning,
try jack-of-all-trades. A case could be made for applying med skill to
removing the cat's skin.
>
>>- -in administering psychoactive substances for various purposes
>
>You mean give out drugs?  That's something anyone can do with or 
>without medical skill.  Not all planets will have an FDA.

I'm not talking about needing a license to give out drugs; that's a matter
of local law.  I mean the ability to give the right drug, in the right
dosage, at the right time, with the knowledge of what other drug might be an
adequate substitute, and of what deleterious effects might occur.  Medical
skill can be applied to the task roll, but psych or pharmacology might bring
the difficulty level down.  

>>- -to foment or dispell conflict among others
>
>You mean rather than come up with a true solution the player will just role
vers their >phychiatic skill.

You may not have been following the recent discussion about the use of
social skills.  I subscribe to the idea that in general any significant
event should be role-played.  Sometimes the player (as opposed to the
character) doesn't have the skill to carry it out.  For example, I know
someone who couldn't sell water in the desert.  If she were playing a
character with, let's say, trader-2 and broker-1, I'd let her roll the dice
to, in effect, enhance her character's sales pitch.

>>Psychiatry-3 should also provide an increase in Social Standing, because the
>>character has to spend that money somehow.
>
>What?  So are you including Psychiatry simply to allow a player the chance
to advance >in social standing?  Besides, spending money to increase social
standing was a rule >tossed into MegaTraveller because most people (Frank
C.) weren't creative enough to >find real uses for Social Standing.

Lighten up.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 01:32:32 GMT
Subject: Re: Gun Racks

=> What was this silly Canadians original problem, anyway? I seem to have
=> missed it.

This "silly Canadian" didn't have a "problem".  It was part of a closing remark
made by myself during a discussion about general firearms with another member of
this list.  It was meant to show that just because we (Canadians) don't have the
Constitutional Right to Bear Arms, we can still have a vested interest in them
(and we can acquire them through the proper channels).  Others on the list seem
to have taken little offense to my remark and a few of them even built upon it
(including yourself).  I, however, *have* taken offense to your closing remark.
Would you care to explain yourself?


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 18:37:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Bleedin' Rocks

                                                                           
Quoting Michael Bailey <mickb@thehub.com.au>                                 
                                                                           
> This is all speculation, so feel free to slap it down. 

*SLAP*...thud. :)

> If you are going to accelerate a rock/ship/nerf ball/whatever to
> relativistic velocities and use it to trash the local real estate, you
> need a lengthy period of _sustained_ acceleration. 
                                                                           
> Why not assume that the thruster plates are unable to run continuously for
> this required lengh of time - they overheat or something (mumble, mumble). 
> Long enough for in-system maneuvering, but after too long you're going to
> trash your plates. 

There are actually two debates going on sort of interwoven with one 
another, and it's time we pulled them apart.  One concerns the 
"planet-killer lifeboat" problem, and is unique to thruster plates.  
This is the one you seem to be addressing -- without somehow limiting 
total acceleration, any random spacecraft can back up to a long distance, 
start accelerating toward the planet at 1+ g, and hit at an appreciable 
fraction of c, causing massive planetwide havoc.  The fact that (in 
canonical Trav history) this has never been recorded to happen is 
well-nigh inexplicable, unless factors are at work which have not been 
described.

Your solution to the problem, though, is not sufficient; all it means is 
that I have to back my lifeboat farther out into the Oort cloud before 
starting the suicide run.  "Accelerate, cool, accelerate, cool, repeat" 
builds up velocity more slowly than continuous acceleration, but heck, I 
can wait. :)  The only simple way to solve the killer lifeboat problem is 
with severe (a.k.a. "realistic") fuel limitations, a la HEPlaR.  Alas, 
severe fuel limitation also makes the game less fun (most players don't 
consider watching the gas gauge to be the height of role-playing 
enjoyment), and (perhaps more important) it's going non-canonical again 
in MMT.

The other current thread of debate involves more traditional "rock
dropping," not at relativistic velocities but at around (the order of)
planetary escape velocities -- 10s of km/s.  It takes a *big* rock to
trash a planet at 20 km/s, but much smaller rocks (or crowbars, or
telephone poles) can do nasty things to smaller targets, as has been
discussed.  This tactic works regardless of the drive you assume, though
thrusters do make *gathering* rocks much easier, and probably make it
possible to deliver rocks more quickly once you decide to do so. 

The frightening things about the rock-dropping trick are how easy it is to 
do, and how how hard it is to counter.  See Heinlein's "The Moon is a 
Harsh Mistress" for a lesson in the military advantages of holding the 
(very) high ground.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 18:43:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "alignment" in Traveller

>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>

>Plus there is a good side/dark side to the Imperium, which makes it feel a 
 
>Hell, I've seen campaigns in Traveller where the PC's were being 
>almost as scummy as the people they were trying to doublecross, 

You've "_seen_ campaigns [with PCs] _almost_ as scummy" -- Stu, you've been
playing with the wrong crowd.  

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: Albert Lowe <sirdirk@xnet.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 21:40:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: Off Topic? Sorry.

On Sat, 15 Jun 1996, The Druid wrote:

> > >>2) In the marines, *everyone* carries a rifle, and knows how to use
> it.
> > 
> > That's true in the Army too.
> he. he he. hah hah HAH!. that is just too funny. I live right next to Fort
> Campbell, KY.
> even the 101st airborne has non-combat ratings. The Corps has NO no combat
> ratings, all Primary MOS's are combat riflemen, with some marines on "Temp
> assignment" to non-combat billets.
> Being ex-navy, you can trust me on this.

While it IS true that there are non-combat billets in the Army, and none 
in the Marine Corps, the Army STILL teaches ALL soldiers how to handle an 
Assault rifle.  It's part of Basic training.  At least it was when I was 
in.  (1974-1978)

+-----------------------------------------+
:Al Lowe              sirdirk@xnet.com    :
:HOMEPAGE at http://www.xnet.com/~sirdirk :
: "I'd rather win nothing, than WIN95"    :
+-----------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Albert Lowe <sirdirk@xnet.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 21:55:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: background is the game 

On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> On 15 Jun 96 at 12:23, John R. Snead spewed:
> 
> > Without the Imperium, Traveller is just a set of rules.  Rules are easy to 
> > write.  Anyone can write rules.  I've written enough games to have found 
> > that the rules are the easy part.  
> > 
> 
> I couldn't have said it better.

Actually, I bought CT when it first came out (oops, my age is showing.)  
And there was no universe then.  I came up with quite a good universe 
all on my own.  And with no experience started running Traveller with a 
group of 4 people that grew to 15 in about 3 weeks.  That game ran for 
two years.  (I moved).  But then the Imperium came out.  After I got out 
of the Army and move to Chicagoland, I started a game that lasted for 3 
years, with the number of players ranging from 5 to 20, averaging 12.
These were generally all day events.  

But basically, I didn't really need the Imperium background.  It was nice 
but generally, I found it to be more of a nuisance, mostly because 
EVERYONE bought the damn stuff, and I had players who knew more about 
certain parts of the Imperium then I did, or for that matter, they knew 
more than their PC's should have known.  It's hard to control that kind 
of stuff.

+-----------------------------------------+
:Al Lowe              sirdirk@xnet.com    :
:HOMEPAGE at http://www.xnet.com/~sirdirk :
: "I'd rather win nothing, than WIN95"    :
+-----------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 96 23:38:46 -0400
Subject: Re:  QSDS Corsair

Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> wrote:
> I have created a Corsair ship using the QSDS system.  I tried to stay as 
> close as possible to the ship detailed in Supplement 4, Citizens of the 
> Imperium.  

Since I intended one of the 400-ton hulls for this purpose, I'm glad you
were able to make it work out well.  :-)

A couple of comments about your design:

> Tons:  400		Volume: 358.5		Cost: 180.32 (135.2)
                                ^^^^^
Confusing terminology time: In the QSD System, I consistently used
Displacement Tons as my unit of volume.  I hate converting from cubic meters
(or "kiloliters" for those of you brought up on MT) to displacement tons and
back again.  For the QSD System, the larger units made more sense, so I used
them exclusively.  UNfortunately, the USD is supposed to give the ship's
volume in _both_ systems.  "Tons" in the USD refers to volume in displacement
tons (just like in the QSD System), but "Volume" in the USD refers to volume
in cubic meters (an alien concept to the QSD system).

SO, for QSD System users, the USD Volume is USD Tons times fourteen.
In your case, this is 5600.

> 00 Fire Control Rating		03 G Rating / Heplar
  ^^
I can tell that one of the captain's first targets will be to score a set of
military-specification laser batteries.  The master fire directors included
with those will increase the ship's fire-control rating, giving it a +3 to
hit, and enabling the ship to engage 3 targets at once (both of which are
important to a pirate).

> 03 Battery - 2-0-0-0		.697350069 Power Plant Rating
                                ^^^^^^^^^^
Power plant rating is 2 times MW divided by displacement; rounded to the
nearest whole number.  In the case of your corsair, this works out to 3.

> 1)  There is no place on the USD chart to enter data on the Avionics (in 
> my case, TL 11 Military) or communications (again, in my case, Improved 
> TL-11).  Is this to be provided in the paragraph description, then?

Yes.

Neither one makes a difference in the combat of the ship, so neither one
appears in the USD display.  The avionics type can be inferred from the
Control section of the USD: "fib" indicates military avionics, and the TL 
should be the TL of the ship.  If the avionics differ for some reason
from the normal assumption (and the corsair's don't), then it should be
noted in the description.

The communications don't appear in the USD at all; you should note them in
the description somewhere.

> 2)  The tables in the QSDS system should follow a standard format.  

You're right, they should.  I didn't even _think_ of this 'till someone
noticed it.  For what it's worth, they're in whatever order they came out
of my spreadsheet in (which usually indicates the order that the columns
appeared in FF&S).

I doubt that there's anything I can do about the copy that was typeset this
week (except hope that this change occurred to Don as well as you), but I'll
update the copies I maintain ASAP.  That way it can be corrected on the Web
site, and maybe for the second printing of MMT.

> I found it bothersome to have to keep 
> hunting for where the volume, price, crew, etc. were located on each table.

Yes, sorry.

> Other than those two quibbles, it is an excellent system!  Thanks, Guy!

You're welcome!  Can I post the (corrected) corsair on my Web site?

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: 16 Jun 96 00:10:49 EDT
Subject: Stuff on CD

>> I personally love the idea of a searchable CDROM with all the game stuff on
it.  However, it strikes me that most of us don't have our computers right where
we're playing.  Though in most instinces they are convenient, but some of us,
like me go to a friends place and he, the heathen, doesn't even own a computer.
<<

This is the situation with me as well. However, I try to create as much of my
adventure as possible _before_ the game; NPCs, ships, vehicles, maps and so on.
This I do on a PC - mainly because being a Computer Guy, I can't write worth
shnit any more. To do this, I have a wide spectrum of utilites and proggies. The
addition of a CD with the core Traveller rules would be a great idea for me.

HWF


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 00:15:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

On Sat, 15 Jun 1996, David J. Golden wrote:
> At 08:38 pm 6/14/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >On Fri, 14 Jun 1996, David J. Golden wrote:
> >
> >>         And just as handy for targetting fusion-powered Deep Meson Sites...
> >> even if you separate them, your DMS is worthless once I nail the power
> source...
> >
> >   Ahhh, but on planets we have the luxury of geothermal power sources...
> 
>         Then no need for even a "handwaving" neutrino sensor ... should show
> up reasonable well to a sensitive thermal scan.

   ...along with about 300,000 other thermal features. A fusion power
plant has a big neon sign attached to it in the form of neutrinos. No
natural phenomena other than fusion produces neutrinos. There are however
thousands of reasons for thermal variations. It would take a determined
team operating over an extended period to separate the chaff from the
wheat and come up with a list of "suspicious" targets. Even then, they'll
probably have their plate full with other therats to deal with, and if
their fleet is small enough it might even be seriously threatened by
attacks from DMSes before they can pin them down.

   Anyways, you can't really say that geothermal power would show up like
a neutrinos would. geothermal uses _existing_ sources of thermal energy,
it doesn't *produce* heat. You will still have to have a coolant loop, but
given enough forethought and planning this could easily be masked. You
couldn't *count* on your thermal variations being the source of the power.
Not only that, but multiple backups could and probably would be wired in.
For example use the planetary power grid (from cities, etc) to supply
power, or have huge banks of HPGs. Furthermore decoys could and probably
would be setup to confuse the enemy.

>         And your DMS will probably show up as a masscon anyway ... something
> we had the technology to detect on early lunar flybys. We've got the Earth's

  Again, along with thousands of other natural features/decoys.

  Im am firmly convinced the only way to seriously deal with DMSes is with
ground teams. Either you have advanced scouts/spies ferreting this
information out, or you drop small commando teams to find and penetrate
these facilities.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #102
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 16 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 103

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: QSDS Corsair
         2. Social Standing: False Attribution
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #101
         4. ID4
         5. Psycopathic crowbars?
         6. Corrected QSDS Corsair
         7. No longer off topic!
         8. Re: To Chris
         9. Re: Planetary Invasions
        10. RE: Gun Racks
        11. RE: Off Topic? Sorry.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 23:20:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: QSDS Corsair

On Sat, 15 Jun 1996, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> Since I intended one of the 400-ton hulls for this purpose, I'm glad you
> were able to make it work out well.  :-)

Ah, nice! :)

> A couple of comments about your design:

Thank goodness! I'd meant to request comments in my post, but I left that 
part out. :)  Since it was my first run-through using QSDS, and since I 
have no experience with FF&S, I figured there'd have to be some errors!

> > Tons:  400		Volume: 358.5		Cost: 180.32 (135.2)
>                                 ^^^^^
> Confusing terminology time: In the QSD System, I consistently used
> Displacement Tons as my unit of volume.  I hate converting from cubic meters
> (or "kiloliters" for those of you brought up on MT) to displacement tons and
> back again.  For the QSD System, the larger units made more sense, so I used
> them exclusively.  UNfortunately, the USD is supposed to give the ship's
> volume in _both_ systems.  "Tons" in the USD refers to volume in displacement
> tons (just like in the QSD System), but "Volume" in the USD refers to volume
> in cubic meters (an alien concept to the QSD system).

Ahhhh....now I get it. :)

I realize it's too late for the version to appear in MMT, but 'twould 
have been nice to have a column giving that value (yeah, it's a simple 
calculation, which is even explained in the QSDS text, but still....).


> > 00 Fire Control Rating		03 G Rating / Heplar
>   ^^
> I can tell that one of the captain's first targets will be to score a set of
> military-specification laser batteries.  The master fire directors included
> with those will increase the ship's fire-control rating, giving it a +3 to
> hit, and enabling the ship to engage 3 targets at once (both of which are
> important to a pirate).

Sounds reasonable.  Again, being unfamiliar with FF&S, and having limited 
descriptions in QSDS (no quibble there - that sort of detail should be in 
the combat section, which I didn't download) I didn't have much guidance 
on what sort of weapon system to put in.  So I just stuck to what the 
Supplement 4 description gave in Book 2 terms.  I'd definitely add the 
military-specificaton laser batteries if I were designing the Corsair again.

> 
> > 03 Battery - 2-0-0-0		.697350069 Power Plant Rating
>                                 ^^^^^^^^^^
> Power plant rating is 2 times MW divided by displacement; rounded to the
> nearest whole number.  In the case of your corsair, this works out to 3.

Yup.  As I said in my email to you, I read that sentence in QSDS several 
times after I got the fractional answer, and always came up reading it as 
/divide by 2/.  Sheesh!  :)


> > 1)  There is no place on the USD chart to enter data on the Avionics (in 
> > my case, TL 11 Military) or communications (again, in my case, Improved 
> > TL-11).  Is this to be provided in the paragraph description, then?
> 
> Yes.

Ah, okay.

> I doubt that there's anything I can do about the copy that was typeset this
> week (except hope that this change occurred to Don as well as you), but I'll
> update the copies I maintain ASAP.  That way it can be corrected on the Web
> site, and maybe for the second printing of MMT.

Cool.  I'll download it again then.  Now that you've corrected my errors 
and given me some more insight, I can more confidently do some more ship 
designs!  

> > Other than those two quibbles, it is an excellent system!  Thanks, Guy!
> 
> You're welcome!  Can I post the (corrected) corsair on my Web site?

Yes, please, that would be great.  If you could add the military-type 
batteries that'd be excellent as well.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 15 Jun 1996 23:32:42 GMT
Subject: Social Standing: False Attribution

Quoting Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>:

>Besides, spending money
>to increase social standing was a rule tossed into MegaTraveller
>because most people (Frank C.) weren't creative enough to find
>real uses for Social Standing.

Actually, this rule came from the folks at Digest Group Publications. 
Specifically, Gary L. Thomas' article "Characters With Class" (Travellers
Digest #7, page 47).  He specifically separated nobilty (social standing from
feudal rank) from non-nobility (social standing from socio-economic class). 
The 'spending is proportional to social standing' rule is based on
contemporary American society (see Warren et al, _Social Class in America_).


------------------------------

From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 96 16:30 NZST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #101

Hugh Foster wrote :
>This is the situation with me as well. However, I try to create as much of my
>adventure as possible _before_ the game; NPCs, ships, vehicles, maps and so on.
>This I do on a PC - mainly because being a Computer Guy, I can't write worth
>shnit any more. To do this, I have a wide spectrum of utilites and proggies. 
>The addition of a CD with the core Traveller rules would be a great idea for 
>me.

I concur. For fast reference when planning a game, a CD-ROM would be great. 
Reference materials should only be necessary _during_ a game to handle the few 
situations you haven't planned in advance.

Simon.

------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 13:00:53 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: ID4

David Reed wrote:

>
>Pop Quiz:  Anybody else out there in the US market seen the previews for the
>new flick "ID4"?  'Independence Day 4'?  The previews don't really show much
>of ortillery, but the White House gets blasted, which is cool...  2 July
the aliens
>show up, 3 July they blow up every target of opportunity, 4 July the directors
>think that we'll be fighting back...  
>
>Anybody disagree?  I know that Mr. Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net> does:

        Of course I do.  As Chief of Propaganda for the Alien Expeditionary
Force, I order you to surrender!  Resistance is useless and will be met with
us dropping SPAM from orbit onto your population centers!

        Seriously, though, The previews look all too Hollywood for this
puppy... Swarms of little flying saucer-type thingies flying around firing
ray guns.  Been there, done that, caught the disease...

        However, I will go see it if it ever opens out here...
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 13:00:56 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Psycopathic crowbars?

Cristopher Sean Hilton wrote:

>
>It's pointless to try to bend Traveller physics around the problem when 
>it would be much easier to deal with it as one would in the real 
>universe where it is a real problem. The mindset of the traveller 
>society would be that only a psycopath would drop a rock on a 
>planet. Anyone caught doing that would be treated like a psycopath.
>
>BTW: This is the logical extension of the "smart crowbar" idea that 
>bouncing around here too.

        What... so it's ok to roast someone with a plasma rifle, fry a ship
with a meson gun, shoot people with any number of slug weapons, etc, etc
,etc, but a simple kinetic-kill smart munition is somehow the weapon only of
madmen?
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 00:10:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Corrected QSDS Corsair

Here is the corrected QSDS Corsair.  I added the standard military laser 
batteries, but this bumped the cost up quite a bit, of course.  I also 
added a short description, mostly cribbed from Supplement 4.  (Although I 
did change the mention of retractable fins, modules that "appear and 
disappear," etc. as I wasn't sure how well that would mesh with a 
detailed design system like FF&S.) 
 
Hope you find this useful. :)

===============

Tons:  400		Volume: 5600		Cost: 282.32 (211.74)
Crew:  21		Passengers (H/M): 0	Passengers (L): 20
Cargo: 114		Controls: Fib/Bridge	Tech Level: 11

08 Size Rating			02 Jump Rating
03 Fire Control Rating		03 G Rating / Heplar
03 Battery - 2-0-0-0		03 Power Plant Rating
00 Battery			118.4 Fuel Rating
00 Battery			00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery			00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery			00 Damper Rating
00 Battery			A10 P4 J4 Sensors
00 Battery			
00 Battery			40 Armor	16 Structure

Crew Detail: 6 Engineers, 7 Electronics, Pilot, Astrogator, 3 Gunners,
	     3 Command.

	The Corsair, and armed raiding ship, is mostly used by Pirate 
characters.  Notable features on the corsair are large cargo doors and 
variable identification features.  The large clamshell doors can open to 
reveal the entire cargo bay.  The ship has several centrally controlled 
identification features which can be used to disguise the ship: radio 
emissions alter frequency and content, and the ship's transponders can be 
altered to identify the vessel as having any of a variety of missions and 
identities.
	The Corsair is not normally available on the open market, as the 
ship is a non-commercial type.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)






------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 15:59:09 +0900
Subject: No longer off topic!

>>>2) In the marines, *everyone* carries a rifle, and knows how to use it.
>> That's true in the Army too.
>> Armand
>he. he he. hah hah HAH!. that is just too funny. I live right next to 
Fort
>Campbell, KY.
>even the 101st airborne has non-combat ratings. The Corps has NO no 
combat
>ratings, all Primary MOS's are combat riflemen, with some marines on 
"Temp
>assignment" to non-combat billets.
>Being ex-navy, you can trust me on this.

he. he he. hah hah HAH!  After I pressed the send button, I realized what a 
dumb thing I'd said.  I used to work in a MEDDAC clinic, but that was 7 
years ago, and I'd have to try hard to remember (not that I'd want to). 
 That'll teach me to stay away from the military topics on the list.  Now, 
could somebody pass me that kinetic crowbar-thing?  I've got to get this 
foot out my mouth.

Psionics:
Can anybody tell me where the durations for successful psionic tasks is 
located in TNE?  If a psionic character succeeds at clairvoyance, for 
example, how long does it last?  I looked for a long time and couldn't find 
any mention of it.

Hardcovers:
I like the idea of hardcovers for Traveller, especially since the IG website 
explains them to be very durable.  If IG is offering the first rulebook as a 
hardcover for $5 extra, do you think they could be pursuaded to offer the 
rest of the books in hardcover editions for $5 more each (in addition to the 
softcover ones they list now)?

Armand
leg (I still think "Airborne!" when somebody breaks a dish, though.)



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 02:26:01 -0500
Subject: Re: To Chris

Well, I couldn't find the post I was looking for.  (Must've been posted to
XBoat.  Had a HD Crash and lost some info!)  But here is a glorious look at
the past...

>From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
>Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 01:23:55 -0700
>Subject: Re: New or Old Starship Designs
>
>From:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM" 29-MAY-1996 18:53:53.28
>To:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"
>CC:	IN%"dperrin@mag7.com"
>Subj:	RE: New or Old Starship Designs
>
>Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 19:40:38 -0600
>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
>Subject: Re: New or Old Starship Designs
>
>At 05:52 pm 5/29/96 -0600, dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin) wrote:
>>Fellow Traveller starship fans;
>>
>>I am creating the first of the expansions for the new Marc Miller's
>>Traveller series, appropriately named Starships. I am interested in any aid
>>that you can give me. I am using the starship building rules from the
>>original Classic Traveller book for small ships, and the High Guard system
>>for larger ships. There have been some minor modifications, but the only
>
>        This really depressed me ... is anybody at Imperium Games actually
>listening to what people say they want? Quoting from the Whither Traveller
>Survey results:
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>This is the best news I've heard in quite some time. Traveller, just like
>wargames, went down-hill as complexity increased, no matter what this sur-
>vey says.
>=======================
>
>I'm going to continue to follow this list, and support Traveller via my Web
>Page, but right now I'm not even going to think about wasting my money on a
>retrograde rule set. If I wanted to play CT or HG, I could already. But I
>don't and I haven't for years.
>
>Just my opinion. Considered comments to the list or to me, flames to
>gatekeeper@hell.org.
>- --________________________________________________________________
>   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
>   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Well I never wanted TNE, which means that I didn't waste my money there,
>& I am very happy to see the return of what worked the best for Trav.
>
>Now, I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I've already put in advance
>orders for everything that IG has on their WWW order form.
>
>If MM approves it then that's all I need to know.
>
>just my opinion too,
>
>Phil 
>
>ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu

Seems Phil was pretty gung ho to me.

>From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 00:10:12 -0700
>Subject: Signing off
>
>I can see the handwriting on the wall.
>
>The faction whose priority is to resurrect TNE has won.
>
>They've managed to convince IG to slap a thin veneer of CT
>over TNE & market it as T4.
>
>I was hoping that IG would have learned from GDW's mistakes
>but that doesn't seem to be the case.
>
>I have no interest in investing my time or money in supporting
>TNEv2 so I'll be cancelling my advance orders for T4 products.
>
>I'll also be cancelling my subscription to this list since MM
>was the last hope for restoring Traveller & that hope has now
>disappeared.
>
>I had hoped that I could spread the word around here that T4
>would bring back the magic that once was Traveller but now I'll
>have to say, "It's just a repackaged TNE".
>
>Phil
>
>ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu
>
>
>

Gee, I wonder what happened!!  I guess someone else was going to get their
was and Phil (even though he was going to get what he wanted) had to pitch
his little temper tantrum.

Two comments:

        1.  I'm from the deep south and down here we still spank our kids
when they act like this.

        2.  Whoever it was that jumped on Chris had better examine Phil's
attitude.  Why was it necessary for Phil to post that message?

Finally, in order to clear Chris' name of any marks, read the following

>Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:18:14 -0800
>From: Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: Can't we all just get along?
>Message-ID: <316F3916.206E@concentric.net>
>
>>>We must co-operate. It's not the same any more. We're not slagging a new
edition
>of the game we all (more or less) love. We're toying with the extirpiration of
>that game in toto.<<
>
>All too true.  If we don't support the new Traveller, folks, there ain't
gonna _be_ a 
>Traveller anymore.  Let's stick together and give it a fair shake, or T4
will be the game's 
>swan song.
>
>--Chris
>


<<<Quotes taken from TML Digest #57, #88, and #657 respectively>>>


Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
      Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
      Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 00:26:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasions

Doug Berry wrote:
> The Guide to Killing Tankers:  Strip them of their infantry.  Tankers are
> vulnerable to infantry, and not really able to respond..  They are trapped
> inside, for fear that the first time they stick their head outside a
> hatch, 7.62mm of vengence will meet your skull at 2600fps. 

Perfectly true at TL 8, and for a couple of TLs after.  When grav 
vehicles appear, though, the whole armor question gets really weird.

Right now, the reason that tanks are vulnerable to infantry is that tanks 
*share the ground* with infantry.  To get from point A to point B, a tank 
has to traverse lots of nasty terrain in between -- and one of Doug's 
stalwart infantrymen, LAW in hand, could be lurking behind every tree.  
That's why infantry was enjoying something of a renaissance in military 
planning during the late 80s -- when one infantryman with a cheap LAW can 
take out a very expensive tank with several crewmen, the balance tends to 
shift around.  Note, by the way, that infantry become especially useful 
on defense -- the attacker is constrained to moving quickly, so has to do 
risky things like packing infantry into easy-to-shoot APCs to get them to 
the battle.  Note also that Desert Storm was a massive tank battle 
because (a) we were on the offensive, (b) we had total air superiority to 
punch through pockets of resistance, and (c) the Iraqi army had some 
serious training and equipment problems in most of its units.

Grav vehicles, though, act more like very fast, very high, very 
well-armored attack helicopters.  In the current battlefield, 'copters 
have one primary misstion -- tank killing -- and one primary enemy -- 
grunts with Stingers.  When everybody is using grav, though, there are no 
(ground) tanks to shoot at, so the action moves higher and faster, with 
the grav tanks "dogfighting" more like aircraft, perhaps using terrain 
now and then to hide for a moment or two.  It's not a scenario where 
infantry is going to get much of a chance to shoot at tanks...until and 
unless the tanks come after *them*.

So, I see a three-phase battle taking place in a planetary invasion, 
partly simultaneous, and with blurry boundaries:

(a) The space phase: Defending ships, SDBs, and DMSs against attacking
    ships.
(b) The air phase: Grav vehicles duking it out until one side runs out.
(c) The ground phase: Grunts face-down behind trees...er, taking and
    holding installations, hunting DMSs, doing FO work, and all those
    cool infantry things Doug has covered so well.

Operation Market-Garden-Hedgehog, anyone? :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 03:29:20 -0500
Subject: RE: Gun Racks

> => What was this silly Canadians original problem, anyway? I seem to
have
> => missed it.
> 
> This "silly Canadian" didn't have a "problem".  It was part of a closing
remark
> made by myself during a discussion about general firearms with another
member of
> this list.  It was meant to show that just because we (Canadians) don't
have the
> Constitutional Right to Bear Arms, we can still have a vested interest
in them
> (and we can acquire them through the proper channels).  Others on the
list seem
> to have taken little offense to my remark and a few of them even built
upon it
> (including yourself).  I, however, *have* taken offense to your closing
remark.
> Would you care to explain yourself?
> 
> 
I am totally, extremely and profusely sorry.
My comment was a knee-jerk reaction that happens whenever I see someone
make a disparaging remark about private gun ownership.
Whether or not your comment falls into this category, it was wrong of me
to have the statement "silly Canadian" in a comment in this area, as I
have only the highest regard for Canadians in general, and all things
Canadian, except possibly in the area concerning private gun ownership.

------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 03:32:30 -0500
Subject: RE: Off Topic? Sorry.

> > even the 101st airborne has non-combat ratings. The Corps has NO no
combat
> > ratings, all Primary MOS's are combat riflemen, with some marines on
"Temp
> > assignment" to non-combat billets.
> > Being ex-navy, you can trust me on this.
> 
> While it IS true that there are non-combat billets in the Army, and none

> in the Marine Corps, the Army STILL teaches ALL soldiers how to handle
an 
> Assault rifle.  It's part of Basic training.  At least it was when I was

> in.  (1974-1978)
This is true, but the marines require re-certification yearly, and the
entire philosophy of the corps reflects the "everyone is a infantryman"
concept.



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #103
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 16 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 104

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #101
         2. Re: Psycopathic crowbars?
         3. [none]
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #103
         5. Re: Stuff on CD
         6. Re: psychiatry
         7. Re: "alignment" in Traveller
         8. QSDS Ships (x2)
         9. QSDS Ships Oops
        10. Re: psychiatry
        11. Re: Planetary Invasions
        12. Re: Planetary Invasions
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #100
        14. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
        15. RE: Off Topic? Sorry.
        16. Where can I find...
        17. More Rocks & Thrusters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: matth <matth@ritz.mordor.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:41:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #101

> 
> From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:23:34 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject: Re: background is the game 
> 
> Without the Imperium, Traveller is just a set of rules.  Rules are easy to 
> write.  Anyone can write rules.  I've written enough games to have found 
> that the rules are the easy part.  
> 
> The only thing that makes Traveller worth buying is the Imperium
> background, just as the only thing that makes GURPS worth buying is the
> plethora of wonderful worldbooks which are fully compatible with the 
> GRUPS rules.  There are a hell of a lot of games out there now, we don't 
> need more sets of rules.  I'll be buying T4 for the gadgets and aliens 
> (which are both important parts of the background) and the history.
> When CT came out there were no SF games, so *just* rules would sell.  
> This has not been true for a *long* time.  T4 will need to give folks a 
> reason to play it and not GRUPS Space.  Rules alone won't do it (even 
> tough I don't much like GURPS rules).
> 
> - -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

> ------------------------------
> 
> From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 13:46:50 -0800
> Subject: Re: background is the game 
> 
> My point as well.  Just put the background in the back of the book, 
> not in the middle of the character generation system, as was done in 
> TNE.
> 
> Stu
> "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
> - -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 16:22:50 -0500 (CDT)
> Subject: Re: background is the game 
> 
> well.  The rules are up front, the setting and a few adventures are in 
> the back.  ('course, in T4 I'd expect to see a little more of the setting 
> than was in The Traveller Book.)
> 
> - -Joe
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
> ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
> Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)

That sounds great to me. Then I don't have to spend time taking the 
Imperium out of the rules, and I can read about or use as much of it as
I like. 

Matthew

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:43:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Psycopathic crowbars?

On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> 
> Cristopher Sean Hilton wrote:
> 
> >It's pointless to try to bend Traveller physics around the problem when 
> >it would be much easier to deal with it as one would in the real 
> >universe where it is a real problem. The mindset of the traveller 
> >society would be that only a psycopath would drop a rock on a 
> >planet. Anyone caught doing that would be treated like a psycopath.

>         What... so it's ok to roast someone with a plasma rifle, fry a ship
> with a meson gun, shoot people with any number of slug weapons, etc, etc
> ,etc, but a simple kinetic-kill smart munition is somehow the weapon only of
> madmen?

   Yep, for the same reason that nukes are verboten and are only used by
madmen. Slug and energy weapons are precision instruments, they attack one
target at a time. KKW are weapons of mass destructon, when they are used
indiscriminately.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: richard.talbot@almac.co.uk (RICHARD TALBOT)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 96 15:46:00 +0100
Subject: [none]

SUBSCRIBE TRAVELLER-DIGEST
SUBSCRIBE XBOAT-DIGEST
 

Richard

 * 1st 2.00 * "You've got backup systems.  Let's see if they work!"

------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:26:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #103

>Hardcovers:
>I like the idea of hardcovers for Traveller, especially since the IG website 
>explains them to be very durable.  If IG is offering the first rulebook as a 
>hardcover for $5 extra, do you think they could be pursuaded to offer the 
>rest of the books in hardcover editions for $5 more each (in addition to the 
>softcover ones they list now)?

Hurray!  I hope IG takes a look at this post.  I too would really like the
T4 books to also be available in hardcover, as my softcover versions of
anything tend to fall apart :)

Peter
*************************************************************************
*               Oh the joys of sharing an account......                 *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: RPGs, PBeMs, TFed, AHR, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/  *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:45:22 -0800
Subject: Re: Stuff on CD

On 15 Jun 96 at 17:29, Hugh Foster spewed:

> This is the situation with me as well. However, I try to create as much of my
> adventure as possible _before_ the game; NPCs, ships, vehicles, maps and so on.
> This I do on a PC - mainly because being a Computer Guy, I can't write worth
> shnit any more. To do this, I have a wide spectrum of utilites and proggies. The
> addition of a CD with the core Traveller rules would be a great idea for me.

This sounds very familiar.  Just about all my design work is done on 
a PC.  I then print the stuff for use during a game session.  
Although I now use Jim V's subsector program to display subsector 
maps as well.  Kind of convenient that way.

Stu


> 
> HWF
> 
> 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:45:22 -0800
Subject: Re: psychiatry

On 15 Jun 96 at 18:31, Glenn M. Goffin spewed:

> campaign.  For this reason, the official skill list should not be overlong.
> Specifically, medical skill should not be subdivided into many sub-skills,
> like first aid and psychiatry (and dentistry, podiatry, ophthalmology,
> etc.).  Nevertheless, a case can be made for having each of these skills in
> a particular campaign (e.g., one revolving around the INS St. Elsewhere, a
> Imperial Navy hospital ship travelling through the Spinward Marches after
> the Fifth Frontier War).  
> 
> The following are my last comments on psychiatry as a potential skill.  I'm
> not suggesting that it be an "official" skill.

I gets the feeling that with the recent breakthroughs in biochem and 
genetics that a large number of psychological problems could be 
related to chemical imbalances and/or genetic factors.  I suspect 
that by the 57th century, psychiatry, at least as we know it today, 
is going to regarded as a stone axe approach to the problem...

At this time, about all an MD is going to be able to do is realize 
there's a problem.  Realize though, that psychiatrists (not 
psychologists) can prescribe medications, and do many (not all) the 
functions that we normally associate with an MD.  You could also 
address the problem by making a psychologist or psychiatrist a 
specialty within the doctor profession...

 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:45:22 -0800
Subject: Re: "alignment" in Traveller

On 15 Jun 96 at 18:43, Glenn M. Goffin spewed:

> You've "_seen_ campaigns [with PCs] _almost_ as scummy" -- Stu, you've been
> playing with the wrong crowd.  

OK, a bit of an exaggeration.  My point is that the characters aren't 
quite as melodramatic as I've seen in other games.  At least the ones 
in my games...

But, you might be right.  Maybe I've been running games with the 
wrong crowd... :-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: scharlto@RTD.COM (Steve Charlton)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:47:41 -0700
Subject: QSDS Ships (x2)

I have created a a Free Trader and a Far Trader using QSDS.  The details are 
below, with the CT information shown in parentheses where appropriate.

Here it is (Format visciously stolen from Joseph Walsh):

Free Trader
Tons:  200		Volume: 190.6		Cost: 51.029 (37.08)
Crew:  7 (4)		Passengers (H/M): 6 (6)	Passengers (L): 10 (20)
Cargo: 73.8		Controls: Bridge	Tech Level: 11

08 Size Rating			01 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating		01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery  		        .6 Power Plant Rating (6x 20 MW)
00 Battery			20.6 Fuel Rating
00 Battery			00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery			00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery			00 Damper Rating
00 Battery			A0 P2 J0 Sensors TL10 Improved
00 Battery			
00 Battery			0 Armor	6 Structure

Crew Detail: 4 Engineers, 1 Astrogator, 1 Command/Pilot, 1 Medic/Steward.
             (1 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Medic, 1 Steward)


Far Trader
Tons:  200		Volume: 190.6		Cost: 51.229 
Crew:  7		Passengers (H/M): 6	Passengers (L): 10
Cargo: 53.8		Controls: Bridge	Tech Level: 11

08 Size Rating			02 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating		01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery  		        .6 Power Plant Rating (6x 20 MW)
00 Battery			40.6 Fuel Rating
00 Battery			00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery			00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery			00 Damper Rating
00 Battery			A0 P2 J0 Sensors TL10 Improved
00 Battery			
00 Battery			0 Armor	6 Structure

Crew Detail: 4 Engineers, 1 Astrogator, 1 Command/Pilot, 1 Medic/Steward.
             (1 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Medic, 1 Steward)


===================
Issues:
1.  The Avionics and Communications thing mentioned earlier.
2.  The inconsistent ordering of columns in the tables.
3.  The Crew issue.  Using the "standard" QSDS caclulcations, I had a crew 
of 12 before I began rounding down and assigning two jobs to other people. 
(5 Engineers, 2 Maneuver, 2 Electronics, 1 Medic, 1 Steward, 2 Command).  
The guidelines for combining crew positions and reducing crew size for 
smaller vessels is too sketchy.
4.  Miscellaneous Equipment.  The Shops and Labs section needs more info: 
are Engineering Shops, Vehicle Shops and Sickbays mandatory when you have 
enough engineers, small craft or medics?  How does the mass/volume of small 
craft effect a ship when in External grapples?  Does this add to the volume 
of the ship when calculating Jump and Maneuver Drive volume?
5.  The Universal Ship Description.  This needs to be clarified.  It could 
use an example.
The Controls section probably is where the Avionics/Commo info would be, but 
that is unclear.
6.  The Jump-2 drive in the Far Trader only added 200,000 Cr to the cost and 
no extra crew.  This seemed a bit odd to me (though not all that bad).

Overall, it took me about 45 minutes to do a design on pen and paper.  I 
then spent about 15 minutes creating a simple spreadsheet, and now it takes 
about 10 minutes per ship.  I have about 5 other designs, which I'll post 
this evening or tomorrow.

Steve Charlton
Steven T. Charlton
I don't recall installing this 
"General Protection Fault" Screen Saver
scharlto@avalon.com (work)  scharlto@rtd.com (home)


------------------------------

From: scharlto@RTD.COM (Steve Charlton)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:53:32 -0700
Subject: QSDS Ships Oops

I really should finish reading my mail before I post these things.  I see 
Derek has answered some of my questions by responding to Joe.  I'll have 
corrections posted this evening or tomorrow morning, along with the other ships.

(Shaking his head in embarrassed shame)
Steven T. Charlton
I don't recall installing this 
"General Protection Fault" Screen Saver
scharlto@avalon.com (work)  scharlto@rtd.com (home)


------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 11:58:46 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: psychiatry

Regarding the over-subdivision of skills:

We had a player who was a doc (the charactor, not the player) and he had
his med skill, but marked off that he was an internal medicine doc---he
hated surgery, and couldn't do more than sutures without getting in over
his head.

I'd suggest that on skills where somebody in the groups knows about the
actual subject that you just use such detail as a roleplaying aid, not a
skill modifer.  Everything needn't be iluminated in the basic rules.
Some MD who plays might write a JTAS article on how to role-play docters
better, for example.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 14:14:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasions

Craig Berry said:

>Grav vehicles, though, act more like very fast, very high, very
>well-armored attack helicopters.  In the current battlefield, 'copters
>have one primary misstion -- tank killing -- and one primary enemy --
>grunts with Stingers.  When everybody is using grav, though, there are no
>(ground) tanks to shoot at, so the action moves higher and faster, with
>the grav tanks "dogfighting" more like aircraft, perhaps using terrain
>now and then to hide for a moment or two.  It's not a scenario where
>infantry is going to get much of a chance to shoot at tanks...until and
>unless the tanks come after *them*.

	Yes and no.  In Striker II, anything that leaves NOE immediately 
becomes a target for everything on the battlefield, including other 
tanks.  Given the remarkable ballistic computers available to grav tanks, 
they can hit one another at several kms, almost no matter how fast their 
target is moving.  In my limited experience, I found that the only way to 
stay alive was keep my tanks moving behind the terrain, so that I could 
control my exposure to hostile fire.  This kept grav tanks operating an 
awful lot like regular tanks.
	Admittedly, Striker II is really about pitched battles.  In a war
of maneuver that covers the planet's surface, maybe moving at truly high
speeds and above the terrain offers some advantages.  But I'm still not
convinced.  First of all, grav tanks are not all that fast.  The Trepida
has a top speed of 713kph and its weapons can only attack another tank out
to about 5kms.  If I were in the kind of "air superiority" battle you
describe, I'd want something other than a flying tank.  I'd want something
more like aircraft.  A "gravspeeder" that can go hypersonic speeds and
carries missiles capable of engaging well armored targets at 100kms is
certainly possible with Trav tech and would be much better equipped to 
handle the sort of battle you describe.  Secondly, I'm not sure how 
pivotal the air battle will be since the orbital battle has already been 
won.  All those fire support craft in orbit should have a pretty good 
crack at shooting down anything flying.  Even the threat of those big 
guns over a flyers head will make him change the way he operates quite a bit.
	I never owned COAAC, so maybe I'm missing something, but I'd 
expect that a planetary invasion would be characterized by a battle to 
seize the orbital high ground, followed by the landing of ground troops 
who would be in a very big hurry to get out of the open and "get their 
face in the dirt" where all that hi-tech fire control equipment out there 
in the Trav universe can't pick them off.

>So, I see a three-phase battle taking place in a planetary invasion,
>partly simultaneous, and with blurry boundaries:
>
>(a) The space phase: Defending ships, SDBs, and DMSs against attacking
>   ships.
>(b) The air phase: Grav vehicles duking it out until one side runs out.
>(c) The ground phase: Grunts face-down behind trees...er, taking and
>    holding installations, hunting DMSs, doing FO work, and all those
>cool infantry things Doug has covered so well.

	I only disagree with you about the nature of phase b.

- --Muir

------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:23:50 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasions

> convinced.  First of all, grav tanks are not all that fast.  The Trepida
> has a top speed of 713kph and its weapons can only attack another tank out
> to about 5kms.  If I were in the kind of "air superiority" battle you
> describe, I'd want something other than a flying tank.  I'd want something
> more like aircraft.  A "gravspeeder" that can go hypersonic speeds and
> carries missiles capable of engaging well armored targets at 100kms is

As a reality check here, an F-16 has an optimal combat speed for
dogfighting of about 450 knots (~820kph). This doesn't change your
point, but it does show what a flying tank is like... an F-16 :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:37:40 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #100

 
> Personally, I think the 2 best ideas he had was not rewriting any of 
> the canon (including virus), and by stating that JTAS will support 
> all eras.  This essentially means that he'll be supporting all 3 
> previous incarnations of the game, while developing an independent 
> 4th.  This "should" have the effect of alienating as few people as 

Heheh.  The "news" section of JTAS might be divided into time periods
for the different eras of play---then players could read the past eras
as "500 Years Ago Today"  :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:44:18 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

 
> >> >   Three words: Deep Meson Sites. Undestroyable from orbit, though you can
> >> >blind their sensors *if* you can find them. (Personally, I favour neutrino
> >> >detectors as a primary targetting sensor - no emissions to lock onto, and
> >> >are great for targetting fusion-powered starships)
> 
>         And your DMS will probably show up as a masscon anyway ... something
> we had the technology to detect on early lunar flybys. We've got the Earth's
> gravitational field fairly well mapped as well -- absolutely critical when
> you're targetting ICBMs.
 
Taking the functionality of MGs for granted, (as well as the lack of
decent directional neutrino detectors good enough to get a FC Lock) I'd
add the following.

Mesons will decay along the beam path.  Ships in orbit will see a long
thin gamma source coming up from the surface.  In other words, they'll
see the beam.  If they see it fire a few times, they'll triangulate the
position.

They still have to survive to get close enough to shoot, though.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Albert Lowe <sirdirk@xnet.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 15:49:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: Off Topic? Sorry.

On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, The Druid wrote:

> an 
> > Assault rifle.  It's part of Basic training.  At least it was when I was
> 
> > in.  (1974-1978)
> This is true, but the marines require re-certification yearly, and the
> entire philosophy of the corps reflects the "everyone is a infantryman"
> concept.

Not me, I was a tanker.  Besides, the Marine Corps is quite a bit smaller 
than the Army, and as part of the Navy department, they draw their 
support personnel primarily from the Navy.


+-----------------------------------------+
:Al Lowe              sirdirk@xnet.com    :
:HOMEPAGE at http://www.xnet.com/~sirdirk :
: "I'd rather win nothing, than WIN95"    :
+-----------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Albert Lowe <sirdirk@xnet.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 16:00:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Where can I find...

Ok, where can I find Traveller programs for the IBM compatible system?

I've been on the list for about a week now, I know you've all seen my posts.
But I've been so inundated with mail eversince I subscribed to this and 
Xboat, it's totally amazing.  I see about 50+posts a day between these 
two groups.  And there will be days go by before I see anything from the 
Space:1889 list.  

Anyway, what web-pages should I look to for Traveller share/freeware?
Or ftp servers for that matter.

Thanks.

+-----------------------------------------+
:Al Lowe              sirdirk@xnet.com    :
:HOMEPAGE at http://www.xnet.com/~sirdirk :
: "I'd rather win nothing, than WIN95"    :
+-----------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 17:18:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: More Rocks & Thrusters

 
I must say I'm disappointed with a lot of the discussion here. We have
some people getting worried about rocks hitting planets at fractional cee
velocities and trying to impose artificial limitations on Thrusters
because of this.

SOAP BOX

One person says:

>I am in favor of a delta v limit on t-plates to prevent a terrorist
>weapon (city killer) from becoming a planet buster.  I lean towards just

   Traveller is a science fiction game. Science fiction is about ideas,
   possibilities, the problems that come with them, and how we deal with
   these problems. Simply saying "this is unacceptable" and trying to change
   things so that an unpalatable idea is no longer possible is cheating,
   and should not be allowed. What we need to do is think about the problem
   and how it would be dealt with.

TRAFFIC COPS

Another comment:

>start accelerating toward the planet at 1+ g, and hit at an appreciable
>fraction of c, causing massive planetwide havoc.  The fact that (in
>canonical Trav history) this has never been recorded to happen is
>well-nigh inexplicable, unless factors are at work which have not been
>described.

    This is an excellent point, and one that needs to be explored. I've
    already mentioned this earlier, but this is important enough to bear
    repeating, and I have some further comments anyways.

    What I have in mind is a massive traffic control system similar to
    the one you'd see at most airports. The high port would have traffic
    control sensors (the same ones that would be used for warfare and
    early warning) that keep track of insystem traffic, these would
    likely be augmented by picket sensors and stations in the outer
    system. Second, we have patrol craft. A large number of these are
    probably SDB's, whos primary function is system defence but would be
    called in for intercepts as a routine job, with some dedicated patrol
    craft doing customs and enforcement work.

    The first job of this network is to make sure that incoming spacecraft
    stay within the traffic lanes assigned to them. Spacecraft ignoring the
    proper procedures will be boarded, probably by the dedicated patrol
    craft but if the bogey declares itself hostile by evading it's likely
    the SDB's would be called in to aid in the intercept. Under NO
    circumstances will a spacecraft be allowed to plot a course that
    intersects with the atmosphere of any inhabited planet in the system.
    Such actions will be dealt with severely, any PC's trying to do this
    will likely be arrested and their ship confiscated (assuming they
    aren't simply blown away by the SDBs) if they don't escape the long
    arm of the law. The only way any spacecraft could enter the atmosphere
    is with a "harbour pilot" on board, an offcial from the high port that
    will pilot for the spacecraft. The intent is to insure that no
    uncontrolled traffic enters the atmosphere as a hazard to the
    population of the planet.

    The second job of this force is to patrol areas (such as the ateroid
    belt) that are easy sources of Dinosaur Killers and prevent unauthorized
    personnel (spacecraft) from entering the asteroid belt and simply
    grabbing one and pushing it to the planet. Asteroid prospectors would
    require licenses, and special permits would be required to actually
    *move* an asteroid.

    Note that this could lead to some interesting adventure hooks, and now
    you have some reasons for all the patrol craft your players meet and a
    rationale for their behaviour. Safety inspections suddenly take on a whole
    new light and the reasons for port fees are a lot clearer.

    Somebody should expand this into a "port authority" type supplement to
    the game...

THE PHYSICS OF DINOSAUR KILLERS

    Lets stop for a moment and look at the events involved in an (opposed)
    attack on a planet with DKs. Let's further assume all ships have
    THRUSTERS. (which is the concern of many arguments)

    Let's say that the asteroid belt (closest approach) is 4AU away from
    the orbit of the planet, that's about 372 million miles (598 milion Km
    for the metrically challenged) Let's also assume that the Terrorist
    chooses a 10,000mt asteroid (small as asteroids go) and the Terrorist
    flies a 200 ton Free Trader with a 1G drive. Using TNE rules, the Free
    trader has a loaded mass of 1900mt, so the acceleration of the Free
    Trader would be 1900/(10,000+1900) = 0.16G. Using S = AT^2/2, the max
    V of the rock would be:

    sqrt(2*598,000,000,000m/1.6m-sec) = ~864,870sec (10 days, 15 minutes)
    864,870 * 1.6 = 1383792 m/sec (0.4% c)

    First off the "Traffic Cops" have LOTS of time to react - 10 days to be
    exact. Second, it's LOTS harder to aim a rock at a planet than deflect it.

    Let's assume that after a couple of days a Patrol Cruiser (4G, 4000mt)
    intercepts, and "convinces" the Terrorist to surrender. After boarding,
    arresting/imprisoning the crew, and sending a prize crew back to base
    with the Trader, the Cruiser then proceeds to deflect the asteroid.

    After two days, the asteroid is moving:
    172800 sec * 1.6 m/sec = 276480 m/sec.
    ...and has travelled:
    1.6 * 172800^2 / 2 =  23,887,872,000m = ~23,888,000 km

    How long it would take the Cruiser to *stop* the asteroid:
    276480 m-sec/(4G * 4000mt / 14,000) = 276480/(1.14G) = 276480/11.4 =
    24252 sec (6 3/4 hrs)

    How long would it take to *deflect* the asteroid:
    Distance to planet: 598,000,000 - 23,888,000 km = 574,112,000 km
    Diameter of Earth-sized planet: 12,800km
    arc = arcsin(diameter/distance) = .008 deg.
    Time 'til impact:
    574,112,000,000m / 276480 m-sec = ~2076355 sec (24 days)

    (The arc is the diameter of the planet in degrees of arc)
    In simple terms: all the Patrol craft has to do is push the
    asteroid *sideways* far enough to miss the planet. ie, change
    course by .008 degrees. This means a sideways vector of 6 m/sec
    is all that is necessary to miss the planet (over 24 days).

    This is as simple as a few seconds on the thrusters - *much*
    easier than *stopping* the asteroid. (The longer you wait, however,
    the harder it gets)

    Note that it is much, much, MUCH more difficult to hit a planet with
    a DK than it is to stop it. Even withOUT thrusters, the Cruiser
    could easily deflect the asteroid, while it's virtually mandatory
    for the Free Trader to have Thrusters if the Trader wants to have
    _any_ chance of succeeding!

    Thrusters aren't the magical weapon many people have been claiming,
    plainly DK's are easily dealt with by a properly prepared system.

    UNopposed assaults are another story for another day, though! <g>


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #104
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 16 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 105

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #102
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #103
         3. Re: JTAS era support
         4. Slap...thud!!
         5. Another try at the Corsair
         6. Re: Another try at the Corsair
         7. Thrusters
         8. Re: More rocks and thrusters
         9. Meson beams
        10. Knee Jerk remarks
        11. Re: Another try at the Corsair
        12. Secure Trader
        13. To the Druid on CDn gun ownership
        14. TNE "Black Curtain"?
        15. TNE, Terran Condition Post-Virus
        16. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #104

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jmg141@psu.edu (John M. Gardner)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 18:27:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #102

Douglas Berry wrote:

>As for transports being better psychologically...  you've never been
>buttoned up in an M-113 APC, unable to see, hear, or run away.  You are a
>sitting target for any Hind helicopter or RPG gunner.  That is nerve racking
>to say the least.  Any infantryman worth his salt wants to be in his natural
>enviroment: face down in the dirt behind a tree.

Spoken like a true grunt!  Personaly, I prefer to be behind the cadilacs
(controls) of a 105 or 120mm and lots of armor.  But, that's the way we
tankers are ya know.  We don't like hinds either, but the RPGs aren't much
more than track busters (most of the time).  

>The Guide to Killing Tankers:  Strip them of their infantry.  Tankers are
>vulnerable to infantry, and not really able to respond..  They are trapped
>inside, for fear that the first time they stick their head outside a hatch,
>7.62mm of vengence will meet your skull at 2600fps.

Somewhat correct.  Without grunts, we tankers can't hold ground very well.
A tank in the defense is little more than a mobile pill box.  (something
tankers don't like to do very much).  In such a posture, an M-1 (my MOS) has
2 to 3 machineguns that can be brought to bear on the attackers (One Cal
.50, one coax 7.62, and one pintel mount 7.62).  Modern tanks were meant to
be used on the offense.  I know from first hand experience that the M-72A2
is worthless against the M-1 from almost any angle (except tracks), and the
AT-4 isn't much better.  BUT, if you kill the tracks you kill the tank.  

In the offense, however, the story is quite different.  The M-1 outruns
darned near anything on the battlefield.  In Saudi, we had trouble because
we kept outrunning the artillery.  The Bradleys were typically left so far
behind it wasn't even funny.  When you move like this, infantry support
isn't much help.  Consequently, we train tank crews not to depend on the
infantry for just these reasons.  

I have to admit though, when we did defend it was VERY comforting to see the
grunts around doing what grunts do so verrry well.  

BTW, I would recomend placing your dragon or TOW shot in the turret ring . .
.   they are very hard to armor without having non mobile turrets.

>Think back to every invasion in WWII.. Armor led *one*, at Dieppe (sp?),
>where the Canadians got their heads handed to them.  D-Day was spearheaded
>by 4 Airborne Divisions.  Strangely enough, you have to make it safe for the
>tanks, and their immense logisical tail.

This is not as true as it used to be.  True enough that tanks use ALOT of
fuel (the M-1 uses 9.3 gallons of fuel just to start the engine) but the
range is much greater than it used to be.  Typical SOP in my unit was to
charge with the tanks, set up a temporary "logger", wait for the infantry to
set up, and then move back to resupply if possible.  Of course, we were a
little unconventional.  AND we were primarily fighting against armor units.
But in the strategic sense, you are correct.  Tanks can not operate for long
without some infantry support.  I imagine that when dealing with heavy mech
the same is somewhat true from the infantry side as well.

I guess it all boils down to the proper use of equipment.

- ---John

*     "a chicken is just an egg's way of making new eggs."
                          --- unknown

*      "any society which is willing to surrender essential liberties to
gain security shall likely have neither"
                        --- Benjamin Franklin


------------------------------

From: jmg141@psu.edu (John M. Gardner)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 18:45:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #103

>This is true, but the marines require re-certification yearly, and the
>entire philosophy of the corps reflects the "everyone is a infantryman"
>concept.

Also true of MOST MOSs in the army.  'Corse alot of retraining goes on
around qualification time.  


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 18:11:37 -0500
Subject: Re: JTAS era support

>> Personally, I think the 2 best ideas he had was not rewriting any of 
>> the canon (including virus), and by stating that JTAS will support 
>> all eras.  This essentially means that he'll be supporting all 3 
>> previous incarnations of the game, while developing an independent 
>> 4th.  This "should" have the effect of alienating as few people as 
>
>Heheh.  The "news" section of JTAS might be divided into time periods
>for the different eras of play---then players could read the past eras
>as "500 Years Ago Today"  :-)
>

Yeah, and the stuff in "future" eras could be "Madam Zina's Astrology" section.


Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
      Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
      Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: Michael Bailey <mickb@thehub.com.au>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 09:36:29 -0900
Subject: Slap...thud!!

Yeah, I realised my reasoning was flawed about 30 seconds after I sent the mail.

I plead ignorance and distraction - my football team isn't doing at all well.


Mick

Michael Bailey 

'quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand.  Ignorance and
prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.'
                             Rush, 'The Witchhunt'


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 18:49:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Another try at the Corsair

Hi,

I'm terribly sorry to have to re-re-post this.  I created a ship design 
spreadsheet, and found that when I made the change to military lasers I 
had not performed the calculations correctly.  So, the cargo and cost 
values have changed.  Again, I'm very sorry for posting this three times.

(My excuse: I'm on the last couple of days of my Honeymoon; designing 
ships and doing calculations probably isn't a very good idea, considering 
the ... er...distractions I'm facing. :)

========

Here is the corrected QSDS Corsair.  I added the standard military laser 
batteries, but this bumped the cost up quite a bit, of course.  I also 
added a short description, mostly cribbed from Supplement 4.  (Although I 
did change the mention of retractable fins, modules that "appear and 
disappear," etc. as I wasn't sure how well that would mesh with a 
detailed design system like FF&S.) 

Under "Cost" I have given the full price, with the discounted price (for 
using off-the-shelf components) in perenthesis. 

===============
Corsair


Tons:  400		Volume: 5600		Cost: 372.62 (279.47)
Crew:  21		Passengers (H/M): 0	Passengers (L): 20
Cargo: 93.4		Controls: Fib/Bridge	Tech Level: 11

08 Size Rating			02 Jump Rating
03 Fire Control Rating		03 G Rating / Heplar
03 Battery - 2-0-0-0		03 Power Plant Rating
00 Battery			118.4 Fuel Rating
00 Battery			00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery			00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery			00 Damper Rating
00 Battery			A10 P4 J4 Sensors/Improved TL 11
00 Battery			
00 Battery			40 Armor	16 Structure

Crew Detail: 6 Engineers, 7 Electronics, Pilot, Astrogator, 3 Gunners,
	     3 Command.

	The Corsair, and armed raiding ship, is mostly used by Pirate 
characters.  Notable features on the corsair are large cargo doors and 
variable identification features.  The large clamshell doors can open to 
reveal the entire cargo bay.  The ship has several centrally controlled 
identification features which can be used to disguise the ship: radio 
emissions alter frequency and content, and the ship's transponders can be 
altered to identify the vessel as having any of a variety of missions and 
identities.
	The Corsair is not normally available on the open market, as the 
ship is a non-commercial type.  
	The crew, as with any craft, may be smaller in actual use.  The 
Captain may choose to have some individuals performing more than one 
function.  For instance, the Command positions may be filled by a senior 
Engineer, a senior Electronics specialist, with the Captain also being 
the Pilot or Astrogator.  The actual number of Engineers and Electronics 
specialists (including those also filling a Command position) may not be 
decreased without increasing the likelihood of equipment failure. 


- -Joe (Hopefully posting this for the last time!)
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)








------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 16:58:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Another try at the Corsair

On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

> (My excuse: I'm on the last couple of days of my Honeymoon; designing
> ships and doing calculations probably isn't a very good idea, considering
> the ... er...distractions I'm facing. :)
 Wait, let me understand this... Your on a honeymoon and your doing role
playing game stuff!?!?!?

 My god man.......
<grin>


bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 20:38:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Thrusters

This is a sequel to my "rocks" post, and addresses some more stuff
on thrusters. My other post was getting rather large, so I thought
I'd break it up.

THRUSTERS AND CONSERVATION OF MOMENTUM

> Thruster plates are the problem, but *only* as long as they are allowed
> to violate conservation of energy. If you fix that, then they aren't a
> problem. Of course,, this will piss off the folks who like them since
> it turns out that a "reactionless" drive that obeys conservation of
> energy is *less* efficient than your typical reaction drive.

>See the problem? Hell, I bet the power plant fuel required to get to 30
>km/s is bigger than the maneuver fuel required to get to 30 km/s with a
>reaction drive!

I've been thinking about this since Leonard brought this up, and I'm
sorry - I just don't buy it. THRUSTERS DON'T VIOLATE CONSERVATION OF
MOMENTUM.

Let's think about this for a moment.

ENFORCING THE LAWS

>Another problem is that you have to measure your velocity (and thus
>momentum and KE) *relative* to some outside object. And the figures
>relative to an object with a different vector will be different.

Yes. So what makes you think that this measurement is any more valid
for thrusters than for any reaction drive? Relativity rules are *always*
applicable, you don't pick and choose. Therefor, if some momentum
calculation isn't valid for reaction drives, then it isn't valid for
reactionLESS drives.

>So any "reactionless" drive is going to have to be figuring the energy
>consumption relative to *some* body. And that means that for all
>practical purposes you are "pushing" (or pulling!) on that object.

A dubious assumption at best. Inertial frame of reference can change at
any time (and does - every time you jump). Any attempt to force
reactionless drives to conform to an impossible standard that isn't
required of any of the reaction drives is ludicrous and makes no sense.

>The reason a reaction drive is so much more efficient is that it is
>pushing on it's *exhaust*, and therefore you measure the KE change
>relative to *that*.

So what happens when that reaction drive spacecraft hits a planet
and liberates all it's "stored" KE? Where'd all the "free" KE come
from? (Remember, you've been measuring relative to the drive exhaust,
not the planet!) You are going to see some kind of paradox everytime
you try and enforce this dubious conservation rule. SO DON'T TRY.

WHERE'S MY TEXTBOOK ON REACTIONLESS DRIVES?

Face it, according to current laws of physics, reactionless drives are
impossible. So therefor, if we do happen to discover a way to make a
reactionless drive we'll probably have to invent a new branch of physics
to describe it's behaviour. Complaining about how reactionless drives
"couldn't possibly work" and "violate conservation" is useless because it's
already been stipulated THEY EXIST AND WORK! So what do we do? We invent a
series of internally consistent rules that describe the drives operation
and go from there.

The first logical rule is to state that, except for exhaust and fuel use,
thrusters work exactly like reaction drives. The next is that they cost a
little more to buy. The third is that they are costly to power up.

Sound a lot like existing thrusters? You bet.

A key way to understanding this is to think of reactionLESS drives as
truely reactionless - they don't push on ANYTHING except themselves. Maybe
they create "virtual particles" as reaction mass, maybe they hook into a
subspace phenomenon much like a sail does. No matter what is decided, as
long as it's consistent you can't argue with it because you are talking
about FICTION - and the primary idea is to stipulate one impossible thing
every adventure and have fun!


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 




------------------------------

From: David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 16 Jun 96 20:48:49 EDT
Subject: Re: More rocks and thrusters

Larry Hadley wrote:

>> Lets stop for a moment and look at the events involved in an (opposed)
attack on a planet with DKs. <<

This assumes an unopposed defence, which is only one of the scenarios being
discussed. In an opposed defence, the home player needs to punch a way through
the attackers to the rock in the first place, then keep them off his back while
he works at redirecting it, and will probably have already lost a significant
part of his out-system sensor-net and therefore reaction time. In the pure
terrorist attack case, the most difficult attack to defend against might be a
rock (or snowball) accelerated from the Oort or even beyond. The envelope over
which the rock may be detected and intercepted will be wider, but the average
speed of the rock will be much higher, making the task of intercepting and
matching vectors to redirect the rock all the more difficult. Course corrections
for targetting become more difficult the higher your speed (you need bigger
inputs to counter the reduced flight time), but conversely your initial
targetting solution becomes more accurate as there is less time for the chaotic
effects of an n-body problem to make your accuracy wander.

For a really nasty attack, jump your own rock into deep space and start
accelerating it from a light-year out. With a big enough engine you'll be
travelling at a high enough a fraction of C by the time you enter the opposing
planet's space defense environment that their reaction times will be very
seriously reduced.

And of course, in the Black War case, many of the planets hit didn't have the
resources left to counter conventional raids, never mind C-fractional strikes.

                                    David


------------------------------

From: David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 16 Jun 96 20:48:46 EDT
Subject: Meson beams

Merrick wrote:
>> Mesons will decay along the beam path.  Ships in orbit will see a long
thin gamma source coming up from the surface.  In other words, they'll
see the beam.  If they see it fire a few times, they'll triangulate the
position. <<

In practise yes, but my reading of _Traveller_ meson beams has always been that
they don't have a spread of velocities and decay points, they all decay at the
same point in space. Unrealistic, perhaps, but it does stop you backtracking
them (and if they were decaying along their length, you could track the
atmospheric effects with EM sensors from infra-red up).

                                    David


------------------------------

From: David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 16 Jun 96 20:48:43 EDT
Subject: Knee Jerk remarks

The Druid wrote:
>> My comment was a knee-jerk reaction that happens whenever I see someone make
a disparaging remark about private gun ownership. <<

Do remember that some of us get the same urge every time someone makes one in
support of private gun ownership. This is a multi-national list with differing
cultural mores, let's keep non-Traveller political reactions off it, please?

                                David


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:59:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Another try at the Corsair

On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Bri wrote:

> On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> > (My excuse: I'm on the last couple of days of my Honeymoon; designing
> > ships and doing calculations probably isn't a very good idea, considering
> > the ... er...distractions I'm facing. :)
>
>  Wait, let me understand this... Your on a honeymoon and your doing role
> playing game stuff!?!?!?
> 
>  My god man.......
> <grin>

It gets worse...my bride is an RPG and videogame nut, so there has been 
more time spend on these things by both of us during our honeymoon than 
would probably be considered healthy by any rational person.  Than God I 
didn't marry anyone rational. :-)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 20:27:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Secure Trader

Hi,

Since Carole, my new wife, is busy with the new videogame I bought her as 
a bridal present, I decided to try my hand at another ship design before 
getting back to more important matters [G].  I tried to be very careful, 
and I double-checked my work, so I hope this one won't require re-posting.

First, I'll give the stats on the ship, then a ship description, and 
finally a little discussion of the QSDS system and some other design notes.

=====
Secure Trader

Tons:  200		Volume: 2800		Cost: 117.5 (88.125)
Crew:  10		Passengers (H/M): 7/0	Passengers (L): 0
Cargo: 43.9		Controls: Std   	Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating			02 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating		02 G Rating / Heplar
02 Battery - 3-2-0-0		02 Power Plant Rating
00 Battery			41.1 Fuel Rating
00 Battery			00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery			00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery			00 Damper Rating
00 Battery			A2 P3 J0 Sensors/Improved TL 12
00 Battery			
00 Battery			40 Armor	12 Structure

Crew Detail (Standard): Engineering-2, Electonics-1, Pilot-1, Astrogator-1,
			Gunner-2, Commander-1, Medic-1, Steward-1

Crew Detail (Minimum) : Engineering-2, Electronics-1, Gunner-2,
			Pilot/Astrogator/Commander-1, Medic-1, Steward-1

(Note: The Medic and Steward may be foregone if no passengers are carried.)

==========================

The Secure Trader is designed for use in transporting goods and 
individuals to and from hostile areas, as well as transporting goods and 
individuals that have a high probability of attracting hostile 
attention.  Since a much higher price can be commanded for such 
transportation, this Trader is capable of making a profit for its owner 
in spite of the higher price in comparison with the more commonly used 
Far Trader.

The main causes of the high price of this ship are the weaponry and the 
hull, both of which exceed the standards for trading vessels.  However, 
they also allow the Secure Trader to survive in situations that would 
destroy the standard Far Trader.

While the small staterooms have been designed with the crew's use in mind 
(excepting the Captain), Travellers experienced with this sort of ship 
have found it sometimes necessary to have the crew double-up in large 
staterooms because a passenger's social sensibilities require that his or 
her retenue use smaller accomodations than are used by his- or herself.  
With eight large staterooms and nine small staterooms available, it is 
possible to come up with many variants of crew and passenger arrangements 
able to please even the most discriminating passenger.  In addition, if 
no high passengers are available at a given port, the Captain can always 
sell middle passage and allow the crew to use the high passage staterooms 
(doubling up or not, as the situation warrants).

Not every Traveller will desire a Secure Trader, but for those who have a 
true sense of adventure, it can bring rewards rarely seen by the timid 
captains of standard trading vessels.

============================
Design Notes:

This is the type of ship my former players (back in CA) would have loved 
to use.  I figure there must be others out there who would like such a 
ship, so I designed it.  Hopefully, you'll find it useful.

QSDS Notes:

I found a couple of typos in the QSDS.  The Standard Military Laser 
Batteries chart has a colum for Price, which should be labeld Cost to 
keep it the same as the other charts.  The same goes for the Standard 
Civilian Laser Batteris chart.  
The Standard Sensor Systems chart has a typo under the Improved TL 12 
sensor system's USD.  The other entries in the column go Ax Px Jx, but 
this entry is ordered Ax Jx Px.  Given the values involved, I assumed the 
J and P had been transposed, but the values had not.  But, I really can't 
be sure.


Anyway, I hope a use for my design is found.  If someone comes up with an 
improvement, please let me know.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)









------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:29:21 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: To the Druid on CDn gun ownership

        ...yes I realize this is off topic.  I promise not to do it again :).

The Druid  wrote:

 
> 
>I am totally, extremely and profusely sorry.
>My comment was a knee-jerk reaction that happens whenever I see someone
>make a disparaging remark about private gun ownership.
>Whether or not your comment falls into this category, it was wrong of me
>to have the statement "silly Canadian" in a comment in this area, as I
>have only the highest regard for Canadians in general, and all things
>Canadian, except possibly in the area concerning private gun ownership.
>

        Negative perspiration, dude...  I just want to point out that this
whole idea that private gun ownership in Canada is impossible or less
well-protected a liberty than in the US is false.  Like you, I have the
(constitutionally-protected, albeit in a different way) right to own
firearms.  In fact, for a while there, many assault-type weapons illegal in
the US were legally available up here.  Any government attempt to completely
ban private gun ownership, or to punitively regulate it, would certainly in
the first case and most probably in the second case get shot down by the
courts on Charter of Rights and Freedoms grounds.

        Thing is is that we just don't have the same attitudes towards guns
as you guys do.  I support the right of my fellow Canadians to own firearms
(not that I'd ever want one myself) on general liberatrian grounds, and
support further regulation of this right to put gun ownership on the same
level of control (for public safety reasons) as car ownership.

        Air cleared?
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:28:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: TNE "Black Curtain"?

I just bought myself a used copy of TNE (to see what all the arguements have
ever been about) and I wanted to ask a question.  On the "New Era" map, it
shows something called the "Black Curtain" which encompasses the Core sector
as well as others.  What exactly is this?  I couldn't find an explanation in
the rulebook.

Peter


------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:30:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: TNE, Terran Condition Post-Virus

I was wondering if anyone had any ideas, or if a supplement was ever
released dealing with what the condition on Earth are like post-virus (ie.
New Era).  The background hints thatv Terra may be better off than other
places because historical texts survive and they can rebuild computers from
Vacuum tubes.  However, I wonder what actually happened?  Same with Vilani,
and other places which went through the real 'discovery' of computers.

Peter


------------------------------

From: matth <matth@ritz.mordor.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:56:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #104

> 
> 
> Traveller-digest            Sunday, 16 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 104
> 
> The following topics are covered in this digest:
> 
>          1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #101
>          2. Re: Psycopathic crowbars?
>          3. [none]
>          4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #103
>          5. Re: Stuff on CD
>          6. Re: psychiatry
>          7. Re: "alignment" in Traveller
>          8. QSDS Ships (x2)
>          9. QSDS Ships Oops
>         10. Re: psychiatry
>         11. Re: Planetary Invasions
>         12. Re: Planetary Invasions
>         13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #100
>         14. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
>         15. RE: Off Topic? Sorry.
>         16. Where can I find...
>         17. More Rocks & Thrusters
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> From: matth <matth@ritz.mordor.com>
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:41:05 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #101
> 
> > 
> > From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
> > Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:23:34 -0700 (PDT)
> > Subject: Re: background is the game 
> > 
> > Without the Imperium, Traveller is just a set of rules.  Rules are easy to 
> > write.  Anyone can write rules.  I've written enough games to have found 
> > that the rules are the easy part.  
> > 
> > The only thing that makes Traveller worth buying is the Imperium
> > background, just as the only thing that makes GURPS worth buying is the
> > plethora of wonderful worldbooks which are fully compatible with the 
> > GRUPS rules.  There are a hell of a lot of games out there now, we don't 
> > need more sets of rules.  I'll be buying T4 for the gadgets and aliens 
> > (which are both important parts of the background) and the history.
> > When CT came out there were no SF games, so *just* rules would sell.  
> > This has not been true for a *long* time.  T4 will need to give folks a 
> > reason to play it and not GRUPS Space.  Rules alone won't do it (even 
> > tough I don't much like GURPS rules).
> > 
> > - -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
> 
> > ------------------------------
> > 
> > From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 13:46:50 -0800
> > Subject: Re: background is the game 
> > 
> > My point as well.  Just put the background in the back of the book, 
> > not in the middle of the character generation system, as was done in 
> > TNE.
> > 
> > Stu
> > "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
> > - -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> > Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 16:22:50 -0500 (CDT)
> > Subject: Re: background is the game 
> > 
> > well.  The rules are up front, the setting and a few adventures are in 
> > the back.  ('course, in T4 I'd expect to see a little more of the setting 
> > than was in The Traveller Book.)
> > 
> > - -Joe
> > ______________________________________________________________________________
> > Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
> > ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
> > Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
> 
> That sounds great to me. Then I don't have to spend time taking the 
> Imperium out of the rules, and I can read about or use as much of it as
> I like. 
> 
> Matthew
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:43:25 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: Psycopathic crowbars?
> 
> On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> > 
> > Cristopher Sean Hilton wrote:
> > 
> > >It's pointless to try to bend Traveller physics around the problem when 
> > >it would be much easier to deal with it as one would in the real 
> > >universe where it is a real problem. The mindset of the traveller 
> > >society would be that only a psycopath would drop a rock on a 
> > >planet. Anyone caught doing that would be treated like a psycopath.
> 
> >         What... so it's ok to roast someone with a plasma rifle, fry a ship
> > with a meson gun, shoot people with any number of slug weapons, etc, etc
> > ,etc, but a simple kinetic-kill smart munition is somehow the weapon only of
> > madmen?
> 
>    Yep, for the same reason that nukes are verboten and are only used by
> madmen. Slug and energy weapons are precision instruments, they attack one
> target at a time. KKW are weapons of mass destructon, when they are used
> indiscriminately.
> 
> - -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
>    Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
>    http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html
> 
> Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
> in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
> violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: richard.talbot@almac.co.uk (RICHARD TALBOT)
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 96 15:46:00 +0100
> Subject: [none]
> 
> SUBSCRIBE TRAVELLER-DIGEST
> SUBSCRIBE XBOAT-DIGEST
>  
> 
> Richard
> 
>  * 1st 2.00 * "You've got backup systems.  Let's see if they work!"
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:26:05 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #103
> 
> >Hardcovers:
> >I like the idea of hardcovers for Traveller, especially since the IG website 
> >explains them to be very durable.  If IG is offering the first rulebook as a 
> >hardcover for $5 extra, do you think they could be pursuaded to offer the 
> >rest of the books in hardcover editions for $5 more each (in addition to the 
> >softcover ones they list now)?
> 
> Hurray!  I hope IG takes a look at this post.  I too would really like the
> T4 books to also be available in hardcover, as my softcover versions of
> anything tend to fall apart :)
> 
> Peter
> *************************************************************************
> *               Oh the joys of sharing an account......                 *
> *-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
> *Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
> *Peter: RPGs, PBeMs, TFed, AHR, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/  *
> *-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
> *          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
> *************************************************************************
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:45:22 -0800
> Subject: Re: Stuff on CD
> 
> On 15 Jun 96 at 17:29, Hugh Foster spewed:
> 
> > This is the situation with me as well. However, I try to create as much of my
> > adventure as possible _before_ the game; NPCs, ships, vehicles, maps and so on.
> > This I do on a PC - mainly because being a Computer Guy, I can't write worth
> > shnit any more. To do this, I have a wide spectrum of utilites and proggies. The
> > addition of a CD with the core Traveller rules would be a great idea for me.
> 
> This sounds very familiar.  Just about all my design work is done on 
> a PC.  I then print the stuff for use during a game session.  
> Although I now use Jim V's subsector program to display subsector 
> maps as well.  Kind of convenient that way.
> 
> Stu
> 
> 
> > 
> > HWF
> > 
> > 
> "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
> - -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
> Bob's Pet Shop.
> Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:45:22 -0800
> Subject: Re: psychiatry
> 
> On 15 Jun 96 at 18:31, Glenn M. Goffin spewed:
> 
> > campaign.  For this reason, the official skill list should not be overlong.
> > Specifically, medical skill should not be subdivided into many sub-skills,
> > like first aid and psychiatry (and dentistry, podiatry, ophthalmology,
> > etc.).  Nevertheless, a case can be made for having each of these skills in
> > a particular campaign (e.g., one revolving around the INS St. Elsewhere, a
> > Imperial Navy hospital ship travelling through the Spinward Marches after
> > the Fifth Frontier War).  
> > 
> > The following are my last comments on psychiatry as a potential skill.  I'm
> > not suggesting that it be an "official" skill.
> 
> I gets the feeling that with the recent breakthroughs in biochem and 
> genetics that a large number of psychological problems could be 
> related to chemical imbalances and/or genetic factors.  I suspect 
> that by the 57th century, psychiatry, at least as we know it today, 
> is going to regarded as a stone axe approach to the problem...
> 
> At this time, about all an MD is going to be able to do is realize 
> there's a problem.  Realize though, that psychiatrists (not 
> psychologists) can prescribe medications, and do many (not all) the 
> functions that we normally associate with an MD.  You could also 
> address the problem by making a psychologist or psychiatrist a 
> specialty within the doctor profession...
> 
>  
> "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
> - -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
> Bob's Pet Shop.
> Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:45:22 -0800
> Subject: Re: "alignment" in Traveller
> 
> On 15 Jun 96 at 18:43, Glenn M. Goffin spewed:
> 
> > You've "_seen_ campaigns [with PCs] _almost_ as scummy" -- Stu, you've been
> > playing with the wrong crowd.  
> 
> OK, a bit of an exaggeration.  My point is that the characters aren't 
> quite as melodramatic as I've seen in other games.  At least the ones 
> in my games...
> 
> But, you might be right.  Maybe I've been running games with the 
> wrong crowd... :-)
> 
> Stu
>  
> "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
> - -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
> Bob's Pet Shop.
> Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: scharlto@RTD.COM (Steve Charlton)
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:47:41 -0700
> Subject: QSDS Ships (x2)
> 
> I have created a a Free Trader and a Far Trader using QSDS.  The details are 
> below, with the CT information shown in parentheses where appropriate.
> 
> Here it is (Format visciously stolen from Joseph Walsh):
> 
> Free Trader
> Tons:  200		Volume: 190.6		Cost: 51.029 (37.08)
> Crew:  7 (4)		Passengers (H/M): 6 (6)	Passengers (L): 10 (20)
> Cargo: 73.8		Controls: Bridge	Tech Level: 11
> 
> 08 Size Rating			01 Jump Rating
> 00 Fire Control Rating		01 G Rating / Thruster
> 00 Battery  		        .6 Power Plant Rating (6x 20 MW)
> 00 Battery			20.6 Fuel Rating
> 00 Battery			00 Meson Screen Rating
> 00 Battery			00 Sand Caster Rating
> 00 Battery			00 Damper Rating
> 00 Battery			A0 P2 J0 Sensors TL10 Improved
> 00 Battery			
> 00 Battery			0 Armor	6 Structure
> 
> Crew Detail: 4 Engineers, 1 Astrogator, 1 Command/Pilot, 1 Medic/Steward.
>              (1 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Medic, 1 Steward)
> 
> 
> Far Trader
> Tons:  200		Volume: 190.6		Cost: 51.229 
> Crew:  7		Passengers (H/M): 6	Passengers (L): 10
> Cargo: 53.8		Controls: Bridge	Tech Level: 11
> 
> 08 Size Rating			02 Jump Rating
> 00 Fire Control Rating		01 G Rating / Thruster
> 00 Battery  		        .6 Power Plant Rating (6x 20 MW)
> 00 Battery			40.6 Fuel Rating
> 00 Battery			00 Meson Screen Rating
> 00 Battery			00 Sand Caster Rating
> 00 Battery			00 Damper Rating
> 00 Battery			A0 P2 J0 Sensors TL10 Improved
> 00 Battery			
> 00 Battery			0 Armor	6 Structure
> 
> Crew Detail: 4 Engineers, 1 Astrogator, 1 Command/Pilot, 1 Medic/Steward.
>              (1 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Medic, 1 Steward)
> 
> 
> ===================
> Issues:
> 1.  The Avionics and Communications thing mentioned earlier.
> 2.  The inconsistent ordering of columns in the tables.
> 3.  The Crew issue.  Using the "standard" QSDS caclulcations, I had a crew 
> of 12 before I began rounding down and assigning two jobs to other people. 
> (5 Engineers, 2 Maneuver, 2 Electronics, 1 Medic, 1 Steward, 2 Command).  
> The guidelines for combining crew positions and reducing crew size for 
> smaller vessels is too sketchy.
> 4.  Miscellaneous Equipment.  The Shops and Labs section needs more info: 
> are Engineering Shops, Vehicle Shops and Sickbays mandatory when you have 
> enough engineers, small craft or medics?  How does the mass/volume of small 
> craft effect a ship when in External grapples?  Does this add to the volume 
> of the ship when calculating Jump and Maneuver Drive volume?
> 5.  The Universal Ship Description.  This needs to be clarified.  It could 
> use an example.
> The Controls section probably is where the Avionics/Commo info would be, but 
> that is unclear.
> 6.  The Jump-2 drive in the Far Trader only added 200,000 Cr to the cost and 
> no extra crew.  This seemed a bit odd to me (though not all that bad).
> 
> Overall, it took me about 45 minutes to do a design on pen and paper.  I 
> then spent about 15 minutes creating a simple spreadsheet, and now it takes 
> about 10 minutes per ship.  I have about 5 other designs, which I'll post 
> this evening or tomorrow.
> 
> Steve Charlton
> Steven T. Charlton
> I don't recall installing this 
> "General Protection Fault" Screen Saver
> scharlto@avalon.com (work)  scharlto@rtd.com (home)
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: scharlto@RTD.COM (Steve Charlton)
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:53:32 -0700
> Subject: QSDS Ships Oops
> 
> I really should finish reading my mail before I post these things.  I see 
> Derek has answered some of my questions by responding to Joe.  I'll have 
> corrections posted this evening or tomorrow morning, along with the other ships.
> 
> (Shaking his head in embarrassed shame)
> Steven T. Charlton
> I don't recall installing this 
> "General Protection Fault" Screen Saver
> scharlto@avalon.com (work)  scharlto@rtd.com (home)
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 11:58:46 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: psychiatry
> 
> Regarding the over-subdivision of skills:
> 
> We had a player who was a doc (the charactor, not the player) and he had
> his med skill, but marked off that he was an internal medicine doc---he
> hated surgery, and couldn't do more than sutures without getting in over
> his head.
> 
> I'd suggest that on skills where somebody in the groups knows about the
> actual subject that you just use such detail as a roleplaying aid, not a
> skill modifer.  Everything needn't be iluminated in the basic rules.
> Some MD who plays might write a JTAS article on how to role-play docters
> better, for example.
> 
> - -Merrick
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 14:14:52 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: Planetary Invasions
> 
> Craig Berry said:
> 
> >Grav vehicles, though, act more like very fast, very high, very
> >well-armored attack helicopters.  In the current battlefield, 'copters
> >have one primary misstion -- tank killing -- and one primary enemy --
> >grunts with Stingers.  When everybody is using grav, though, there are no
> >(ground) tanks to shoot at, so the action moves higher and faster, with
> >the grav tanks "dogfighting" more like aircraft, perhaps using terrain
> >now and then to hide for a moment or two.  It's not a scenario where
> >infantry is going to get much of a chance to shoot at tanks...until and
> >unless the tanks come after *them*.
> 
> 	Yes and no.  In Striker II, anything that leaves NOE immediately 
> becomes a target for everything on the battlefield, including other 
> tanks.  Given the remarkable ballistic computers available to grav tanks, 
> they can hit one another at several kms, almost no matter how fast their 
> target is moving.  In my limited experience, I found that the only way to 
> stay alive was keep my tanks moving behind the terrain, so that I could 
> control my exposure to hostile fire.  This kept grav tanks operating an 
> awful lot like regular tanks.
> 	Admittedly, Striker II is really about pitched battles.  In a war
> of maneuver that covers the planet's surface, maybe moving at truly high
> speeds and above the terrain offers some advantages.  But I'm still not
> convinced.  First of all, grav tanks are not all that fast.  The Trepida
> has a top speed of 713kph and its weapons can only attack another tank out
> to about 5kms.  If I were in the kind of "air superiority" battle you
> describe, I'd want something other than a flying tank.  I'd want something
> more like aircraft.  A "gravspeeder" that can go hypersonic speeds and
> carries missiles capable of engaging well armored targets at 100kms is
> certainly possible with Trav tech and would be much better equipped to 
> handle the sort of battle you describe.  Secondly, I'm not sure how 
> pivotal the air battle will be since the orbital battle has already been 
> won.  All those fire support craft in orbit should have a pretty good 
> crack at shooting down anything flying.  Even the threat of those big 
> guns over a flyers head will make him change the way he operates quite a bit.
> 	I never owned COAAC, so maybe I'm missing something, but I'd 
> expect that a planetary invasion would be characterized by a battle to 
> seize the orbital high ground, followed by the landing of ground troops 
> who would be in a very big hurry to get out of the open and "get their 
> face in the dirt" where all that hi-tech fire control equipment out there 
> in the Trav universe can't pick them off.
> 
> >So, I see a three-phase battle taking place in a planetary invasion,
> >partly simultaneous, and with blurry boundaries:
> >
> >(a) The space phase: Defending ships, SDBs, and DMSs against attacking
> >   ships.
> >(b) The air phase: Grav vehicles duking it out until one side runs out.
> >(c) The ground phase: Grunts face-down behind trees...er, taking and
> >    holding installations, hunting DMSs, doing FO work, and all those
> >cool infantry things Doug has covered so well.
> 
> 	I only disagree with you about the nature of phase b.
> 
> - --Muir
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:23:50 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: Planetary Invasions
> 
> > convinced.  First of all, grav tanks are not all that fast.  The Trepida
> > has a top speed of 713kph and its weapons can only attack another tank out
> > to about 5kms.  If I were in the kind of "air superiority" battle you
> > describe, I'd want something other than a flying tank.  I'd want something
> > more like aircraft.  A "gravspeeder" that can go hypersonic speeds and
> > carries missiles capable of engaging well armored targets at 100kms is
> 
> As a reality check here, an F-16 has an optimal combat speed for
> dogfighting of about 450 knots (~820kph). This doesn't change your
> point, but it does show what a flying tank is like... an F-16 :-)
> 
> - -Merrick
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:37:40 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #100
> 
>  
> > Personally, I think the 2 best ideas he had was not rewriting any of 
> > the canon (including virus), and by stating that JTAS will support 
> > all eras.  This essentially means that he'll be supporting all 3 
> > previous incarnations of the game, while developing an independent 
> > 4th.  This "should" have the effect of alienating as few people as 
> 
> Heheh.  The "news" section of JTAS might be divided into time periods
> for the different eras of play---then players could read the past eras
> as "500 Years Ago Today"  :-)
> 
> - -Merrick
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:44:18 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
> 
>  
> > >> >   Three words: Deep Meson Sites. Undestroyable from orbit, though you can
> > >> >blind their sensors *if* you can find them. (Personally, I favour neutrino
> > >> >detectors as a primary targetting sensor - no emissions to lock onto, and
> > >> >are great for targetting fusion-powered starships)
> > 
> >         And your DMS will probably show up as a masscon anyway ... something
> > we had the technology to detect on early lunar flybys. We've got the Earth's
> > gravitational field fairly well mapped as well -- absolutely critical when
> > you're targetting ICBMs.
>  
> Taking the functionality of MGs for granted, (as well as the lack of
> decent directional neutrino detectors good enough to get a FC Lock) I'd
> add the following.
> 
> Mesons will decay along the beam path.  Ships in orbit will see a long
> thin gamma source coming up from the surface.  In other words, they'll
> see the beam.  If they see it fire a few times, they'll triangulate the
> position.
> 
> They still have to survive to get close enough to shoot, though.
> 
> - -Merrick
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: Albert Lowe <sirdirk@xnet.com>
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 15:49:13 -0500 (CDT)
> Subject: RE: Off Topic? Sorry.
> 
> On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, The Druid wrote:
> 
> > an 
> > > Assault rifle.  It's part of Basic training.  At least it was when I was
> > 
> > > in.  (1974-1978)
> > This is true, but the marines require re-certification yearly, and the
> > entire philosophy of the corps reflects the "everyone is a infantryman"
> > concept.
> 
> Not me, I was a tanker.  Besides, the Marine Corps is quite a bit smaller 
> than the Army, and as part of the Navy department, they draw their 
> support personnel primarily from the Navy.
> 
> 
> +-----------------------------------------+
> :Al Lowe              sirdirk@xnet.com    :
> :HOMEPAGE at http://www.xnet.com/~sirdirk :
> : "I'd rather win nothing, than WIN95"    :
> +-----------------------------------------+
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: Albert Lowe <sirdirk@xnet.com>
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 16:00:34 -0500 (CDT)
> Subject: Where can I find...
> 
> Ok, where can I find Traveller programs for the IBM compatible system?
> 
> I've been on the list for about a week now, I know you've all seen my posts.
> But I've been so inundated with mail eversince I subscribed to this and 
> Xboat, it's totally amazing.  I see about 50+posts a day between these 
> two groups.  And there will be days go by before I see anything from the 
> Space:1889 list.  
> 
> Anyway, what web-pages should I look to for Traveller share/freeware?
> Or ftp servers for that matter.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> +-----------------------------------------+
> :Al Lowe              sirdirk@xnet.com    :
> :HOMEPAGE at http://www.xnet.com/~sirdirk :
> : "I'd rather win nothing, than WIN95"    :
> +-----------------------------------------+
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 17:18:11 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: More Rocks & Thrusters
> 
>  
> I must say I'm disappointed with a lot of the discussion here. We have
> some people getting worried about rocks hitting planets at fractional cee
> velocities and trying to impose artificial limitations on Thrusters
> because of this.
> 
> SOAP BOX
> 
> One person says:
> 
> >I am in favor of a delta v limit on t-plates to prevent a terrorist
> >weapon (city killer) from becoming a planet buster.  I lean towards just
> 
>    Traveller is a science fiction game. Science fiction is about ideas,
>    possibilities, the problems that come with them, and how we deal with
>    these problems. Simply saying "this is unacceptable" and trying to change
>    things so that an unpalatable idea is no longer possible is cheating,
>    and should not be allowed. What we need to do is think about the problem
>    and how it would be dealt with.
> 
> TRAFFIC COPS
> 
> Another comment:
> 
> >start accelerating toward the planet at 1+ g, and hit at an appreciable
> >fraction of c, causing massive planetwide havoc.  The fact that (in
> >canonical Trav history) this has never been recorded to happen is
> >well-nigh inexplicable, unless factors are at work which have not been
> >described.
> 
>     This is an excellent point, and one that needs to be explored. I've
>     already mentioned this earlier, but this is important enough to bear
>     repeating, and I have some further comments anyways.
> 
>     What I have in mind is a massive traffic control system similar to
>     the one you'd see at most airports. The high port would have traffic
>     control sensors (the same ones that would be used for warfare and
>     early warning) that keep track of insystem traffic, these would
>     likely be augmented by picket sensors and stations in the outer
>     system. Second, we have patrol craft. A large number of these are
>     probably SDB's, whos primary function is system defence but would be
>     called in for intercepts as a routine job, with some dedicated patrol
>     craft doing customs and enforcement work.
> 
>     The first job of this network is to make sure that incoming spacecraft
>     stay within the traffic lanes assigned to them. Spacecraft ignoring the
>     proper procedures will be boarded, probably by the dedicated patrol
>     craft but if the bogey declares itself hostile by evading it's likely
>     the SDB's would be called in to aid in the intercept. Under NO
>     circumstances will a spacecraft be allowed to plot a course that
>     intersects with the atmosphere of any inhabited planet in the system.
>     Such actions will be dealt with severely, any PC's trying to do this
>     will likely be arrested and their ship confiscated (assuming they
>     aren't simply blown away by the SDBs) if they don't escape the long
>     arm of the law. The only way any spacecraft could enter the atmosphere
>     is with a "harbour pilot" on board, an offcial from the high port that
>     will pilot for the spacecraft. The intent is to insure that no
>     uncontrolled traffic enters the atmosphere as a hazard to the
>     population of the planet.
> 
>     The second job of this force is to patrol areas (such as the ateroid
>     belt) that are easy sources of Dinosaur Killers and prevent unauthorized
>     personnel (spacecraft) from entering the asteroid belt and simply
>     grabbing one and pushing it to the planet. Asteroid prospectors would
>     require licenses, and special permits would be required to actually
>     *move* an asteroid.
> 
>     Note that this could lead to some interesting adventure hooks, and now
>     you have some reasons for all the patrol craft your players meet and a
>     rationale for their behaviour. Safety inspections suddenly take on a whole
>     new light and the reasons for port fees are a lot clearer.
> 
>     Somebody should expand this into a "port authority" type supplement to
>     the game...
> 
> THE PHYSICS OF DINOSAUR KILLERS
> 
>     Lets stop for a moment and look at the events involved in an (opposed)
>     attack on a planet with DKs. Let's further assume all ships have
>     THRUSTERS. (which is the concern of many arguments)
> 
>     Let's say that the asteroid belt (closest approach) is 4AU away from
>     the orbit of the planet, that's about 372 million miles (598 milion Km
>     for the metrically challenged) Let's also assume that the Terrorist
>     chooses a 10,000mt asteroid (small as asteroids go) and the Terrorist
>     flies a 200 ton Free Trader with a 1G drive. Using TNE rules, the Free
>     trader has a loaded mass of 1900mt, so the acceleration of the Free
>     Trader would be 1900/(10,000+1900) = 0.16G. Using S = AT^2/2, the max
>     V of the rock would be:
> 
>     sqrt(2*598,000,000,000m/1.6m-sec) = ~864,870sec (10 days, 15 minutes)
>     864,870 * 1.6 = 1383792 m/sec (0.4% c)
> 
>     First off the "Traffic Cops" have LOTS of time to react - 10 days to be
>     exact. Second, it's LOTS harder to aim a rock at a planet than deflect it.
> 
>     Let's assume that after a couple of days a Patrol Cruiser (4G, 4000mt)
>     intercepts, and "convinces" the Terrorist to surrender. After boarding,
>     arresting/imprisoning the crew, and sending a prize crew back to base
>     with the Trader, the Cruiser then proceeds to deflect the asteroid.
> 
>     After two days, the asteroid is moving:
>     172800 sec * 1.6 m/sec = 276480 m/sec.
>     ...and has travelled:
>     1.6 * 172800^2 / 2 =  23,887,872,000m = ~23,888,000 km
> 
>     How long it would take the Cruiser to *stop* the asteroid:
>     276480 m-sec/(4G * 4000mt / 14,000) = 276480/(1.14G) = 276480/11.4 =
>     24252 sec (6 3/4 hrs)
> 
>     How long would it take to *deflect* the asteroid:
>     Distance to planet: 598,000,000 - 23,888,000 km = 574,112,000 km
>     Diameter of Earth-sized planet: 12,800km
>     arc = arcsin(diameter/distance) = .008 deg.
>     Time 'til impact:
>     574,112,000,000m / 276480 m-sec = ~2076355 sec (24 days)
> 
>     (The arc is the diameter of the planet in degrees of arc)
>     In simple terms: all the Patrol craft has to do is push the
>     asteroid *sideways* far enough to miss the planet. ie, change
>     course by .008 degrees. This means a sideways vector of 6 m/sec
>     is all that is necessary to miss the planet (over 24 days).
> 
>     This is as simple as a few seconds on the thrusters - *much*
>     easier than *stopping* the asteroid. (The longer you wait, however,
>     the harder it gets)
> 
>     Note that it is much, much, MUCH more difficult to hit a planet with
>     a DK than it is to stop it. Even withOUT thrusters, the Cruiser
>     could easily deflect the asteroid, while it's virtually mandatory
>     for the Free Trader to have Thrusters if the Trader wants to have
>     _any_ chance of succeeding!
> 
>     Thrusters aren't the magical weapon many people have been claiming,
>     plainly DK's are easily dealt with by a properly prepared system.
> 
>     UNopposed assaults are another story for another day, though! <g>
> 
> 
> - -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
>    Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
>    http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html
> 
> Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
> in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
> violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
>  
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of Traveller-digest V1996 #104
> **********************************
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To: traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #106
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Errors-To: owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
Precedence: bulk
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 17 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 106

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Symbols and Organization
         2. Re: Meson beams
         3. Smart Crowbars...
         4. Re: Meson beams
         5. HIWG Australia home page
         6. Re: Imperial Way
         7. you can two of these three
         8. Re: you can two of these three
         9. Re: COnversion Please

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:52:20 -0400
Subject: Symbols and Organization

If you look at most SF pictures, they are indistinguishable as to the Milieu
(or game system) they come from. As a matter of fact, Traveller is built to
use those pictures. Illos of people, guns, vehicles, aliens, can all be
incorporated into the game because Traveller covers so many options.

But I also want to work toward a particular flavor for Traveller, and one way
to do that is for the artists to create art specifically for Traveller.They
do that by incorporating the symbols of Traveller into the art... Rebellion
Sourcebook did it quite well, with the illustrations incorporating the
symbols of the factions of the rebellion as an integral part of the scene.

So I am interested in suggestions for

"Nationalities" such as The Sylean Federation, The Third Imperium, etc. but
also the names of smaller governments like the Interstellar Confederacy.

Government Offices like the Ministry of Trade and Commerce, the Office of
Calendar Compliance, the Third Undersecretary for Interstellar Affairs.

Educational and Scientific Operations like the University of Sylea, the
University of Regina, the Sylean Medical Association, the Interstellar
Archeology Congress.

Corporate entities like Naasirka, Zhunastu, etc.

And associated with them, the standard symbol that they use (on letterhead,
on ball caps, on vacc suit chests).

Any suggestions? Any milieu. Any organization.

Remember, symbols are of necessity simplified (the artist will render it
often as just a suggestion). I use a Circle in a Square for University of
Sylea because it implies vaguely a mathematical persuasion. Often a symbol is
just described by a few words (the Sylean Lattice, the Vilani Eclipse); just
enough to get a feel.

Thanks

Marc



------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:58:46 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Meson beams

 
> >> Mesons will decay along the beam path.  Ships in orbit will see a long
> thin gamma source coming up from the surface.  In other words, they'll
> see the beam.  If they see it fire a few times, they'll triangulate the
> position. <<
> 
>In practise yes, but my reading of _Traveller_ meson beams has always been that
> they don't have a spread of velocities and decay points, they all decay at the
> same point in space. Unrealistic, perhaps, but it does stop you backtracking
> them (and if they were decaying along their length, you could track the
> atmospheric effects with EM sensors from infra-red up).

They can't all decay at the same point, it's just a probability (or,
rather they won't, they could but it's highly unlikely :-).

I never recall reading that they all decay at the exact same point in
space, though.  Close enough to put most/a lot of them inside the
target, but I don't remember the canon explicitly saying that mesons
don't act at all the way we'd expect them to.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:06:09 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Smart Crowbars...

        Larry Hadley wrote:

>
>>         What... so it's ok to roast someone with a plasma rifle, fry a ship
>> with a meson gun, shoot people with any number of slug weapons, etc, etc
>> ,etc, but a simple kinetic-kill smart munition is somehow the weapon only of
>> madmen?
>
>   Yep, for the same reason that nukes are verboten and are only used by
>madmen. Slug and energy weapons are precision instruments, they attack one
>target at a time. KKW are weapons of mass destructon, when they are used
>indiscriminately.

        Ok... seems we do agree.  The smart crowbars and phone poles we're
talking about here are by definition precision instruments (the only diff
between these and conventional munitions is that they use KE instead of HE
for the kill), whereas its the larger rocks used to bust cities, precipitate
greenhouse effects or nuclear winters, or completely smash the planet that
are used only by the nutbars.  Although if the example of the late 20th-C on
Earth is any example, I'd imagine that most governments are secretly
preparing to go completely bonkers at the drop of a hat :).

        So basically, Christopher was saying that weapons of mass
destruction, whatever their nature, would be verboten.  I'm cool with that...
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:22:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Meson beams

On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> They can't all decay at the same point, it's just a probability (or,
> rather they won't, they could but it's highly unlikely :-).
 I think it would make sense for it to be a impossible difficulty task to
be able to get a 'difficult' roll to lock on(I.E. success means 'Hey,
they'res a meson trail there)

 Or(which I kinda like) you could just make high tech level planets nearly
impossible to take over without alot more subelty...

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: grants@dove.net.au (Grant Sinclair)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 16:08:08 +0930
Subject: HIWG Australia home page

The HIWG Australia Yiklerzdanzh Project home page is now at
       http://dove.mtx.net.au/~grants/hiwg.html

The URL should be stable for at least a year, so feel free to set up
links to the site (and please do!).  The site is under construction, of
course, the same as every other site.

Any and all comments welcome.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Grant Sinclair                  The mean time to need something after
                                discarding it is 2 weeks. This can be
grants@dove.net.au              reduced to 1 week by hanging on to
http://dove.mtx.net.au/~grants  it for a long time first.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 01:52:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Imperial Way

I have added this to my web page.  Whoever worte it originally, please let
me know so I can give you credit!!! Thanks

>
>THE LEAGUE OF THE IMPERIAL WAY
>	As can often be the case, the name of this party is rather
>innocuous.  Their literature indicates a distanced reverence for
>life before the Collapse and nostalgia for "the good old days"; they
>occasionally host recreations of Imperial banquets and so forth.
>	As one gets past the introductory literature, however, it
>becomes clear that, to the League, the most important aspect of 
>Imperial life was the human supremacy within the old Imperium.  This
>view of history is a rather distorted one; it is more true, in fact, 
>to say that humans had their "supremacy" in what is now Coalition
>Space during the Dark Years between the fall of the Imperium and the 
>birth of the Dawn League.
>	The League has its roots in a pair of Dawn League-era political
>groups, the Fires of Dawn (founded on Fija) and Oriflamme's Humaniti 
>Alliance.  Both were responsible, in the Dawn League years, for 
>bills denying full citizenship rights to Schalli, Chirpers and 
>Droyne, Ithklur, and Hivers.  Such blatant racism was generally
>voted down in planetary legislatures; those defeats served only to
>further fire the zealots in the two groups.  As intersystem trade
>and communication increased, both the Fires and the Alliance saw
>each other as distant allies; they began cosponsoring events on other
>worlds in the League and working closely on other projects.
>	The most dangerous and ambitious of these projects was an 
>attempt to release an engineered viral weapon upon the native Schalli
>residents of Aubaine in early N.E. 1; the trio responsible 
>represented the top-level leadership of both groups, and was arrested
>and convicted on charges of attempted terroristic attack in short
>order.
>	A Luhtahlan woman named Sanlii Buckner has come to the fore
>of the pro-human movement (as it is euphemistically called) since that
>time.  Where the Fires and the Alliance were openly inflammatory,
>Buckner's League of the Imperial Way is controlled, some might say
>stealthy.
>	A fairly slick marketing campaign is in place on several of
>the high-population worlds of the Coalition, inviting new members
>to come and experience the "regalia and pageantry of the old Imperium";
>the commercials and advertisements show only humans.  Recruitment
>is low-key at first, as well; the League is seen by most non-members
>as a social club.
>	Legislation put into place by the few RC Assembly members
>under the sway of the League is more subtle than the laws its 
>predecessors tried to get into place. For instance, regulation of
>high-security RC installations may soon be locked to the voiceprints 
>and palmprints of those allowed to enter, which will cause no end
>of hassle for Schalli and Hivers;  some Centrist Leaguers have 
>suggested encouraging the RCN's support staff to come up with a
>unified meal plan for Navy bases and ships, which could easily be
>skewed toward human dietary necessity; and so on.
>	The modern League, then, is not generally seen as a xenophobic
>or terrorist group, but rather as a social club.  Prejudice by
>League members and of League actions is not overt but subtle; Buckner's
>hope is to give nonhumans in the RC area a thousand little annoyances
>rather than one spectacular firebombing.
>	Lastly, it should be noted that the Fires of Dawn does still
>exist, though the Humaniti Alliance has crumbled.  The more radical
>members of the Fires lost interest in Buckner's large-scale strategy
>pretty early on, and are still playing at terrorism.  Rumors abound
>that the Fires gets much of its funding from the League, but it is
>unlikely that this can be proved.  Other rumors imply that numerous
>small, anti-alien groups have received donations and guidance from
>the League, but again, if such a thing is true, tracing it would
>be difficult; Buckner knows when to hide her tracks.
>
>


Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
      Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
      Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 01:06:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: you can two of these three

>From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>

>On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:
>
>> (My excuse: I'm on the last couple of days of my Honeymoon; designing ships 

> Wait, let me understand this... Your on a honeymoon and your doing role
>playing game stuff!?!?!?

Les Howie of this list once observed that you can two of the following three
things:  a successful career; a good marriage or similar relationship;
enough role-playing.

My own experience has borne him out, and we seem to be seeing more evidence.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 01:44:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: you can two of these three

On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> Les Howie of this list once observed that you can two of the following three
> things:  a successful career; a good marriage or similar relationship;
> enough role-playing.
 Haha, true true. For him it seems to be working out as he can combine
that successful marriage with role playing.
 best of both worlds, I guess..


bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 01:48:27 PST
Subject: Re: COnversion Please

Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> writes:

> Similarly, the spreadsheets can't be loaded into my copy of Quattro Pro 
> for Windows.  It can load Excel for DOS files, but not Excel for Windows 
> files. :(  Again, even an ASCII delimited file would be nice, and it's a 
> conversion that should be available in any spreadsheet program.

If possible, I'd like him to export the spreadsheets in SYLK (symbolic
link format). I *know* that Quattro can import that, and that Excel can
too. I'm just not sure if Excel can *export* it. If it can, it'd be a
help to me, because then I could easily load it into Multiplan.
Otherwise I have to do multi-step conversions by way of Lotus *.WKS
files. And both that and "ascii" files would lose any macros and range
names.



Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #106
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From: owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
To: traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #107
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 17 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 107

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Deck Plans - where to upload
         2. Ship SPreadsheet
         3. RE: Thrusters
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #91
         5. Re: Off Topic?  Sorry.
         6. Re: you can two of these three
         7. Re: Any point?
         8. Re: Dropping rocks for fun & profit
         9. Re: you can two of these three
        10. QSDS? Huh?
        11. Re: you can two of these three
        12. Re: QSDS? Huh?
        13. <no subject>
        14. <no subject>
        15. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
        16. Re: QSDS? Huh?
        17. Re: QSDS? Huh?
        18. Unsubscribe Traveller Digest...
        19. Re: THrowing rocks at Normandy
        20. Re: QSDS? Huh?
        21. QSDS: The answers flowed...
        22. Re: Two of the Three

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 17 Jun 1996 08:05:15 GMT
Subject: Deck Plans - where to upload

I've dug up some deck plans I did a while back.  25mm scale, colour, 3d.  If
someone could send me an ftp site and instructions for uploading them I could
make them available to a wider audience (hint, hint)...

------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:19:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Ship SPreadsheet

Hi,

I'm unfortunately not very adept at making spreadsheets, so I was hoping
someone with a spreadsheet completed for FF&S Light could send me it (send
to scouse@inforamp.net).  I'd really appreciate this, thanks.

Peter


------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:29:27 -0400
Subject: RE: Thrusters

Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> wrote:
> Complaining about how reactionless drives "couldn't possibly work" and
> "violate conservation" is useless because it's already been stipulated
> THEY EXIST AND WORK!

Exactly!

It's also been stipulated (by virtue of history and Traveller "feel")
that non-military spacecraft can operate relatively freely, even in a
populated star system. Therefore, they do not pose a terrible threat
to society. I'm perfectly content to leave it at that:

How do M-drives work? Just fine, thank you very much.

Others (particularly "gearheads") will be tempted to try to explain
their mechanics. The problem with this approach is that you cannot
design them without considering the effect on the Traveller universe.
I've seen it happen--players decide to exploit the description of how
a particular piece of technology works and end up with a superweapon,
which can ruin the whole campaign.

My "zeta field" suggestion was one attempt to reconcile the Thruster
plates *I am familiar with* with the Traveller universe. There are
certainly other ways to do it.

For example, it has been stated that they will be gravitically-based.
Fine--they operate in a different "mode", where the energy-limiting
factor is not the conversion to gravitic potential energy but rather
to kinetic energy. They essentially transfer applied energy directly
and efficiently into thrust. Define a practical upper speed limit on
the capabilities of the technology and you're in business. Note that
these are *not* the same thrusters as described in CT, which violate
conservation of energy unless a "mass nullifier" device is used (the
energy requirements must be adjusted at least, meaning there is no
more month-long "free" maneuvering).

I'm going to make a few statements about thruster plates. You don't
have to buy any of them, but these are necessary for consistency in
*my concept* of the Traveller universe:

o There must be a reason to use them instead of fusion rockets
o They must not produce planet-killers (e.g., >0.1c dropped rocks)
o They must not produce more energy than is applied to them (if they
  seem to, there is a logical explanation that prevents it from
  being used for some purpose other than maneuvering)

As long as there is room in the rules to let these be explained
by those that wish to do so, pretty much any description of the
M-drive is acceptible.

I'll say it again: I don't care how (or whether) you explain the
mechanics behind M-drives. Just don't make the mistake of boxing
yourself in a corner trying to justify a particular explanation.
Think it through, or leave it out. Otherwise you end up with
statements like "of course every planet is just covered with deep
meson guns" (which doesn't work anyway--planets without that
technology are not being bombarded either).

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:06:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #91

At 11:50 AM 6/14/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Are you suggesting that the black plague may have been carried from NA
>to Europe by the vikings?  Very interesting theory.  I understand that 
>a small body of paleontogists believe the dinasours died out when
>germs spread accross the land bridge between Europe and NA.

Actually I was suggesting the opposite the Vikings, who had built up a level
of tollerence to the disease, as much as you can to something that horrible,
carried the disease from Europe to North America.

>I've read somewhere someone suggested that the Valani lost their 
>empire to the solomani not because of military power but because
>they had no defense against the comman cold, carried to the stars
>by the humans of earth.

Quite probably there is a certian amount of truth in this supposition.  The
Solomani were masters of genetic manipulation.  It is not unlikely that they
had altered themselves in such a was that their bodies were capable of
fighting off any disease thus making them potential carriers.

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:11:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Off Topic?  Sorry.

At 03:10 AM 6/15/96 +0900, you wrote:
>>>2) In the marines, *everyone* carries a rifle, and knows how to use it.
>
>That's true in the Army too.
>
It'd be pretty funny if the officers only knew how to fight with popsicle
sticks. 8)

DS


------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 16:14:25 +0200
Subject: Re: you can two of these three

     > On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
     > 
     > > Les Howie of this list once observed that you can two of the 
     > > following three things:  a successful career; a good marriage or 
     > > similar relationship;  enough role-playing.
     > Haha, true true. For him it seems to be working out as he can 
     > combine that successful marriage with role playing.
     > best of both worlds, I guess..
     > 
     > 
     > bri <bri@teleport.com>
     
     The best man at my wedding (who is also a RPer) managed to get a few 
     laughs in his speech when he said how lucky I was to have a wife who 
     would indulge in my fantasy role playing sessions ;-).
     
     Cheers,
     Liam
     
     --
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

From: Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 06:48:21 -0800
Subject: Re: Any point?

Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus wrote:
> 
> >Please _do_ look it up and quote it on the list. It'll be all the more
> >pleasurable to read now that Phil is eating crow.
> Did this message serve any point? C'mon, cut the crap and get
> on with the list.
> Jo

Keep your messages public, Jo. You're not doing me any favors.

I was in a continued discussion with several folks about the difficulty 
we had with a former TMLer. I think it's pretty much worn itself out, as 
do you, apparently, but if you don't enjoy reading on a subject, skip 
it! That's what most of us do.

- --Chris

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:26:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Dropping rocks for fun & profit

At 09:22 AM 6/14/96 PST, you wrote:
>derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:
>
>> Ya cool.  But cool in the way people rubber neck at an accident scene cool.
>> Personally I think that we should really drop this concept.  The idea of
>> dropping a boulder on a planetoid at 10,000 KPS is pretty morally repugnant
>> and it goes against everything that the Traveller universe CT MT TNE and T4
>> beleive in.  THough I wouldn't put it past Lucan.
>
>Hate to tell you this, but what he described was a *large* (10 meter)
>boulder at a measly 30 km/sec or so.
>
>Dropping "rocks" at 10 to 30 km/s is going to happen. It's mostly
>*much* smaller "rocks" and called "ortillery". At 30 km/s a *baseball*
>will take out a tank. 
>
>Personally, I think he overdid it. Unless that comm center was buried a
>hundred meters undrgound.
>
>On the other hand, have you ever seen pictures of what even "ordinary"
>bombs do?

Okay so perhaps I'm over doing the whole thing.  The point that I was trying
to make is who decides how big a rock is to big and how fast it to fast.
Dropping crowbars and telephone poles is fine with me.  Going out the the
asteroid field and accellerating a rock as a planet is inherently dangerous.
Who's to say it'll even survive re-entry in one piece and if it doesn't how
much countryside have you just vaporized because you chose that rock instead
of this rock?  Preformed kenetic weapons are fine, dropping an asteroid on a
planet is wrong.  
I've seen the damage a fairly small bomb can do and I've seen what a fairly
large bomb can do.

DS


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:29:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: you can two of these three

On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> > Wait, let me understand this... Your on a honeymoon and your doing role
> >playing game stuff!?!?!?
> 
> Les Howie of this list once observed that you can two of the following three
> things:  a successful career; a good marriage or similar relationship;
> enough role-playing.
> 
> My own experience has borne him out, and we seem to be seeing more evidence.

Too true.  I guess it all comes down to (at least in my case) the fact 
that I won't sacrifice a good relationship for a high-paying career.  
And, of course, one of the main ingredients of a good relationship is 
shared interests - including Traveller! :-)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 17 Jun 96 10:38:42 EDT
Subject: QSDS? Huh?

I must've missed something...Wot the heck is QSDS? Is this a acronym for some
CT thing that I simply don't recognize or is this something new?

thanks in advance, y'all...

- -j

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:54:23 -0800
Subject: Re: you can two of these three

On 17 Jun 96 at 9:29, Joe Walsh spewed:

> Too true.  I guess it all comes down to (at least in my case) the fact 
> that I won't sacrifice a good relationship for a high-paying career.  
> And, of course, one of the main ingredients of a good relationship is 
> shared interests - including Traveller! :-)
> 

I was quite fortunate.  I married somebody whose more of a sci-fi or 
fantasy reader than I am (which is impressive in itself), a 
role-player, and almost as interested in Traveller as myself.  We've 
been together 10 years now...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:59:16 -0800
Subject: Re: QSDS? Huh?

On 17 Jun 96 at 10:38, Jeffery M. Miller spewed:

> I must've missed something...Wot the heck is QSDS? Is this a acronym for some
> CT thing that I simply don't recognize or is this something new?
> 

Wildstar can explain it better than I can.  In case you hadn't heard, 
FF&S is THE complex design system for T4.  Originally, Dave Golden 
solicitied Don Perrin to create a simpler HG level system for ship 
design, based on some draft ideas he'd posted on his web page a few 
months ago.  Dave created FF&S light, a scaled down off them rack 
system that could be used for quicker ship design that FF&S Light.  
There are a lot of people who like FF&S light, but some thought it 
still too complex.

Then Wildstar came to the rescue, and decided to create an even more 
scaled down design system QSDS, which is probably more equivalent to 
a Book 2 Starships difficulty level.  Apparently there are quite a 
few QSDS devotees, as the designs Joe is cranking out can attest.

Stu
  
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Tim Fyffe <TimFyffe@netbiz.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:01:33 -0500
Subject: <no subject>

unsubscribe traveller timfyffe@netbiz.net

------------------------------

From: Tim Fyffe <TimFyffe@netbiz.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:02:57 -0500
Subject: <no subject>

subscribe traveller-digest timfyffe@netbiz.net

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:14:02 -0700
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

At 03:33 PM 6/14/96 -0600, you wrote:
>At 10:07 am 6/14/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>   Three words: Deep Meson Sites. Undestroyable from orbit, though you can
>>blind their sensors *if* you can find them. (Personally, I favour neutrino
>>detectors as a primary targetting sensor - no emissions to lock onto, and
>>are great for targetting fusion-powered starships)
>
>        And just as handy for targetting fusion-powered Deep Meson Sites...
>even if you separate them, your DMS is worthless once I nail the power
source...

Hmmmmmm....  This is a problem.  Potentially the DMS could be powered by
Geo-Thermal power with excess power stored in batteries and HPG's.  This
would make the site virtually undetectable from orbit.  Particularly if
properly masked.

DS


------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:14:14 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: QSDS? Huh?

 
>> I must've missed something...Wot the heck is QSDS? Is this a acronym for some
> > CT thing that I simply don't recognize or is this something new?

QSDS is the "Quick Ship Design System."  It is basically a group of
plug-in sub-systems, and standard hulls to put them in that produces
ships quickly with no math save addition of the components.

It is very much like Book2 ship design except that since the sub-systems
and hulls were built using FFS, it is completely compatible with the
FFSLight system, as well as with (slightly fixed) FFS.

The idea is to have a very easy system, a slighly more detailed system,
and a nuts and bolts system that all produce compatible results.

- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:15:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: QSDS? Huh?

On 17 Jun 1996, Jeffery M. Miller wrote:

> I must've missed something...Wot the heck is QSDS? Is this a acronym for some
> CT thing that I simply don't recognize or is this something new?
> 
> thanks in advance, y'all...

Jeffrey,

QSDS is the Quick Ship Design System, which was created by Guy Garnett 
(AKA Wildstar@qrc.com) in response to a ...er...mild disagreement that 
occurred recently between those who want a system like Fire Fusion & 
Steel (very very detailed) for designing ships, those who want something 
like High Guard (somewhat detailed), and those who want something like 
Book 2 (very simple) to be used with T4/MMT.  It turns out that Imperium 
Games will re-release FF&S, better edited and with a new name, for T4 
at some point, but will be including something called FF&S Light 
(designed by David J. Golden) in their Starships supplement (this is the 
high-guard type system, fully compatible with FF&S), and Quick Ship 
Design System (the Book 2 style system) will be in the basic rules book for 
Marc Miller's Traveller.  

This way, thanks to David Golden and Guy Garnett's game design abilities 
and dedication to the game, as well as IG's open policy for customer 
suggestions, everyone should have a system that is right for them...and 
all systems are compatible with eachother.

QSDS is available online at http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/  (there's more 
to the direct URL, but that will get you to Guy's home page, and you can 
get to QSDS from there).  FF&S Light is on David Golden's web page, but I 
don't recall the link right now. :(


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:23:35 -0800
Subject: Unsubscribe Traveller Digest...

Rob, 

Sorry to post this to the list, but I forgot your address.  Majordomo 
is not responding to my command on this, so could you please 
unsubscribe me from traveller-digest (please leave me subscribed to 
traveller mail though).

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:26:12 -0700
Subject: Re: THrowing rocks at Normandy

At 08:39 AM 6/15/96 +0800, you wrote:
>        
>        Derek Stanley wrote:
>>>
>>>        Rocks, on the other hand are free.
>>
>>Ya but if all they did was throw rocks at Normandy the second world war
>>would still be going on.  8)  
>
>        Wrong.  Normandy would be buried under a layer approximately 1.4 km
>deep of rocks and rough gravel :).

Ah it's a crappy beach anyway's no one would notice.  8)

>>Someone's got the make the sacrifice, and
>>you'll never completely supress the planets air defence.  I mean unless you
>>kill every living creature and you're still hoping they don't have a meson
gun.
>>
>>DS
>
>        Well, as I've said, I'll concede that _complete_ suppression may be
>impossible.  I still think that _trying_ to do so before dropping in the PBI
>is going to be the route a prudent commander takes.

Oh ya, you've got to nail everything obvious from orbit, unless it a
balkanized world then you just flatten the target zone.  Sending men in
again's a fully functional defencive system is suicide.

DS


------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 17 Jun 96 11:34:15 EDT
Subject: Re: QSDS? Huh?

Spewed? I resemble that comment!

And all of these apparently Beta options are available where? or is this an IG
inner-sanctum thang?
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 17 Jun 96 11:45:38 EDT
Subject: QSDS: The answers flowed...

Thanks much for the info! sorry I missed the links first go 'round!

- -j
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:45:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Two of the Three

On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> Les Howie of this list once observed that you can two of the following three
> things:  a successful career; a good marriage or similar relationship;
> enough role-playing.

You can actually get all three -- if your spouse or significant other is 
also a gamer.  Though I guess it depends on how you define "enough 
role-playing."  ;-)

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #107
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 17 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 108

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: Gun Racks
         2. Re: COnversion Please
         3. Re: Psycopathic crowbars?
         4. Re: Planetary Invasions
         5. Re: Stuff on CD
         6. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
         7. Re: TNE "Black Curtain"?
         8. Re: two of three
         9. BARD Pages
        10. Re: Symbols
        11. Oh, God, not rox again!
        12. Re: QSDS
        13. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
        14. KKM's DK's, and Troop landings
        15. QSDS Ships Galore
        16. Re: QSDS
        17. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
        18. Thrusters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:57:28 -0700
Subject: RE: Gun Racks

At 11:35 AM 6/15/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Actually, Maybe this person is thinking about California; Only about 1/3
>of the pickups there had gun racks. Being from Tennessee, where
>motorcycles have gun racks, this seems kind of silly.
>What was this silly Canadians original problem, anyway? I seem to have
>missed it.

What you talking about silly Canadian's for?  Canuckle Heads okay, but silly
Canadains, I take exception...  8)

DS

Speaking as a proud Canuckle Head from Vancouver too.  

PS if you go to the interior here Gun Racks are also standard equipment from
the dealership.  So you want to buy a BMW's eh?  Is that with a three or
four rifle rack in the back window?  It's just harder to get a liscence for
the guns so most gun racks carry fishing equipment.  8)


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:06:39 -0700
Subject: Re: COnversion Please

At 06:55 PM 6/15/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On Sat, 15 Jun 1996, Tom Miller wrote:
>
>> Is it possible for someone to convert the FFSLITE system found on Dave
>> Golden's page from Word 6 to Microsoft Works for Windows 3.  I've tried just
>> loading it up but it won't convert it on it's own.
>
>I can't load it into WordPerfect for Windows 6.0 either.  Heck, even a 
>straight ASCII conversion would be nice.  
>
>Similarly, the spreadsheets can't be loaded into my copy of Quattro Pro 
>for Windows.  It can load Excel for DOS files, but not Excel for Windows 
>files. :(  Again, even an ASCII delimited file would be nice, and it's a 
>conversion that should be available in any spreadsheet program.

I can load it the problem is I run into all kinds of invalid font errors and
the system locks up blah blah blah yakity schmakity.  Its not a pretty sight.

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:21:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Psycopathic crowbars?

At 01:00 PM 6/16/96 +0800, you wrote:
>
>Cristopher Sean Hilton wrote:
>
>>
>>It's pointless to try to bend Traveller physics around the problem when 
>>it would be much easier to deal with it as one would in the real 
>>universe where it is a real problem. The mindset of the traveller 
>>society would be that only a psycopath would drop a rock on a 
>>planet. Anyone caught doing that would be treated like a psycopath.
>>
>>BTW: This is the logical extension of the "smart crowbar" idea that 
>>bouncing around here too.
>
>        What... so it's ok to roast someone with a plasma rifle, fry a ship
>with a meson gun, shoot people with any number of slug weapons, etc, etc
>,etc, but a simple kinetic-kill smart munition is somehow the weapon only of
>madmen?

Actually I don't think he's refering to something as small and as limiting
in it's damage scope as any of the things you've mentioned here.  He's
talking about dropping a rock and by rock I'm assuming he means something
the size of a small mountian on a planet.  

I think that this is where the greatest mis understanding in this whole
thread of coversation is occuring some people are saying rock and reffereing
to an optically guided kinetic-kill munition the size of a phone pole or
smaller.  Where as others are using the word rock to refer to a mountian
sized lump of stone grabbed out of the asteroid belt and dropped on a city.

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:25:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasions

At 12:26 AM 6/16/96 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Doug Berry wrote:
>> The Guide to Killing Tankers:  Strip them of their infantry.  Tankers are
>> vulnerable to infantry, and not really able to respond..  They are trapped
>> inside, for fear that the first time they stick their head outside a
>> hatch, 7.62mm of vengence will meet your skull at 2600fps. 
>
>Perfectly true at TL 8, and for a couple of TLs after.  When grav 
>vehicles appear, though, the whole armor question gets really weird.

Absolutly true.  Once you've got Grav technology everything you though you
knew about conduting war goes out the door.  Suddenly the playing field has
a third dimension.  It would be like Thousands of "Super Apachies" that
didn't have to pay attention of the laws of gravity swarming across a planet.

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:29:17 -0700
Subject: Re: Stuff on CD

At 10:45 AM 6/17/96 -0800, you wrote:
>On 15 Jun 96 at 17:29, Hugh Foster spewed:
>
>> This is the situation with me as well. However, I try to create as much of my
>> adventure as possible _before_ the game; NPCs, ships, vehicles, maps and
so on.
>> This I do on a PC - mainly because being a Computer Guy, I can't write worth
>> shnit any more. To do this, I have a wide spectrum of utilites and
proggies. The
>> addition of a CD with the core Traveller rules would be a great idea for me.
>
>This sounds very familiar.  Just about all my design work is done on 
>a PC.  I then print the stuff for use during a game session.  
>Although I now use Jim V's subsector program to display subsector 
>maps as well.  Kind of convenient that way.
>
Where did this SubSec. program come from.  I do everything on Computer too
and I'd love a subsector map maker.  I do it all by hand now.

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:34:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

At 12:44 PM 6/16/96 -0600, you wrote:

>Taking the functionality of MGs for granted, (as well as the lack of
>decent directional neutrino detectors good enough to get a FC Lock) I'd
>add the following.
>
>Mesons will decay along the beam path.  Ships in orbit will see a long
>thin gamma source coming up from the surface.  In other words, they'll
>see the beam.  If they see it fire a few times, they'll triangulate the
>position.
>
>They still have to survive to get close enough to shoot, though.

Do not the Meson's just magically "appear" inside the ship with no trail to
follow back?  Thats how I understood they worked.  If this is untrue then
what the hell is the advantage of building meson guns in the first place.
It'd be cheaper and quicker to plant thousands of silo's in the ground and
launch PDM's at anything in orbit.

If the meson's appear inside the ship they should, in theory, be completely
untracable back to their source.  

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:51:01 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE "Black Curtain"?

At 09:28 PM 6/16/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I just bought myself a used copy of TNE (to see what all the arguements have
>ever been about) and I wanted to ask a question.  On the "New Era" map, it
>shows something called the "Black Curtain" which encompasses the Core sector
>as well as others.  What exactly is this?  I couldn't find an explanation in
>the rulebook.
>
The Black Curtian is something of an Event Horizon.  Anything that goes
beyond that line never comes back.  This area is also centered upon the main
strong hold of the Lucan faction during the rebellion, Lucan's scientists
created Virus.  No one really knows what's going on in there but you can bet
whatever it is it's pretty wierd.  THere are a number of clues in the
various supplements, no one in the Regency or the RC knows about the Black
Curtian.  One of the RC survey ships, Lady Elise I beleive correct me if I'm
wrong, gets picked up on the outskirts of the Covenant of Suffern, a small
pocket empire which survives the collapse.  The ship has been infected with
a "Carrier Pigeon" virus strain which is attempting to take the ship to the
core.  Suffern studies the ship for a while before releasing it and
following it.  No one knows what happens next.

In Vampire Fleets there is word that "Puppettier Strain" virus' are flowing
out of the Core and attempting to Re-infect already infected computers.
What this leads me to suspect is that the "Puppet's" are a new strain of
virus created in the core dedicated to replacing the old strain.  It is
possible that the Puppets are in control of a large number of worlds and
factories still producing high tech gear in the core, infecting it and
shipping it off into the wilds.  This is a bad thing and it is all just
specualtion.  No one really knows for sure.

DS


------------------------------

From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:12:22 -0500
Subject: Re: two of three

>>On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:
>>
>>> (My excuse: I'm on the last couple of days of my Honeymoon; designing ships 
>
>> Wait, let me understand this... Your on a honeymoon and your doing role
>>playing game stuff!?!?!?
>
>Les Howie of this list once observed that you can two of the following three
>things:  a successful career; a good marriage or similar relationship;
>enough role-playing.
>
>My own experience has borne him out, and we seem to be seeing more evidence.
>

Same here.  I really don't miss the successful career, though. ;)  Too bad
IG can't hire me, then I could have all three!!!


Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
    - Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
    - Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:12:37 -0500
Subject: BARD Pages

ATTENTION - ATTENTION - ATTENTION - ATTENTION

The BARD Pages are up and working.  Please visit them and tell all your
friends.  For those of you that Don't remember (Look, I know its taken me
six months to do what I said I'd do in two, but JUST GET OVER IT!!! :), BARD
is the Bureau of Aggregate Reference Data.  It is a collection of library
information for the RC.  (Hey, I don't care what you think about the RC and
Virus, if you like them use them if you don't, don't!! :)

Anyway, If you have a Traveller site, or if you have something you'd like to
add to the BARD pages, please Email me and let me know, I'd love to hear
from you.  Even if you don't have a Trav page or a submission, Just Email me
and let me know what you think of the BARD pages!! (ranting flames excluded)
I'm in the process of adding color, so please try to take that into
consideration while you look at the bland black and grey.

The address to my home page is:

        http://www.datasync.com/~tiger/

Click on the IG sunburst to get to my trav page!

Any questions?


Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
    - Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
    - Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:12:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Symbols

>So I am interested in suggestions for
>
>"Nationalities" such as The Sylean Federation, The Third Imperium, etc. but
>also the names of smaller governments like the Interstellar Confederacy.

The Third Imperium started as a fuedal state, and I always envisioned the
original sunburst being part (or all) of the crest on Cleon's coat of Arms.
I see the original Imperial symbol as the entire crest (or maybe just the
shield) and evolving in time into just the now-famous Imperial sumburst.

How about this, as a suggestion?  The original Imperial symbol:

        A shield.  The top 1/4 divided into three sections, white, red,
white.  The first section shows a red sun(the Imperial Sunburst), the second
a white moon, and the third a red star(six pointed).  The bottom 3/4 is gold
and has no image or symbol at all.  Over time this symbol evolved into just
the three sectioned bar, and eventually just the sunburst.  (The colors
could either evolve, or stay the same.)  (And to think, I used to know how
to write this the way a herald would).

>
>Corporate entities like Naasirka, Zhunastu, etc.

Two of the corporations created for the RC era are on my web page
(http://www.datasync.com/~tiger/trav.htm).  Lewis Roberts did one and I did
the other.  

Transstar - This was Lewis' creation.  I thought I had a copy of the blurb
he did about the companies symbol, but I can't find it.  Lewis, you got a
copy handy?

Dushgin & Delgado - This one was mine.  The symbol:
        On a stary backdrop, a pale moon (light from above and behind
viewer) with blue letters D&D in "3-D" extending from a point at the top of
the moon to the center of the moon.


Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
    - Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
    - Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 17 Jun 96 13:11:32 EDT
Subject: Oh, God, not rox again!

I really thought the rockchucker debate had been thoroughly thrashed to
exhaustion last time. Let's try my approach and see if it nails this one.

I don't allow planetbuster weapons in my game.

See how easy it is? Wow! None of this learned squabbling about whether this
defence can stop rox flying at .8c or whathaveyou. Planetbuster would upset the
flavour of my game and campaign, so if anyone asks, it doesn't work. Then we get
on with roleplaying.

Couple more 2 penn'rth. Orbital assaults and knocking out deep meson sites; I
would expect a DMS emplacement to have a bigger power source than anything
mounted on a ship - and therefore greater range. Therefore, before your invaders
could take potshots at the neutrino traces, DMS could pick them off.

And finally, please could people calm down, stop flaming and remember this is
supposed to be a pleasurable hobby. Thankyew.

HWF


------------------------------

From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:28:46 -0500
Subject: Re: QSDS

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:15:41 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Re: QSDS? Huh?
>
>QSDS is the Quick Ship Design System, which was created by Guy Garnett 
>(AKA Wildstar@qrc.com) in response to a ...er...mild disagreement that 

mild disagreement?!?!

Not within the Traveller inner circle!

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

Help, I can't breathe!!!  :)


Paul  {tiger}              http://www.datasync.com/~tiger/

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
    - Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
    - Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:40:57 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

> >Mesons will decay along the beam path.  Ships in orbit will see a long
> >thin gamma source coming up from the surface.  In other words, they'll
> >see the beam.  If they see it fire a few times, they'll triangulate the
> >position.
> 
> Do not the Meson's just magically "appear" inside the ship with no trail to
> follow back?  Thats how I understood they worked.  If this is untrue then
> what the hell is the advantage of building meson guns in the first place.

No.  They are accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of
light and travel towards the target like any other particle beam.

In extremely simplified terms:

The idea in traveller is that knowing the halflife of pions (something
like 1E-15 seconds---don't have a ref handy) you accelerate them so
that due to relativity effects they decay in the same time to
themselves, but to outside (non-relativistic) observers (the shooter and
the target) the decay takes long enough for them to reach the target.

In traveller (not real life) these mesons are extremely non-interactive,
so they pass right through armor or even planets, only decaying around
their half-lives.

Some will decay before the target, som past it regardless.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:57:53 -0800
Subject: KKM's DK's, and Troop landings

there is a simple distinction between objectives for those using DK's
(Dinosaur killers) annd nukes versus KKM's (Kinetic Kill Missiles) and
Troop Landings:

Mass destruction versus precision destruction.

if you want to take over/control/economically benefit from a battle, the
cheap, kill 'em all attitude is a failure. You'll spend more re-building,
re-propagandizing survivors and your own people than the cost of a landing
and precision bombing, even tho the latter has a higher initial cost.

If you want to simply eliminate the opposition, DK's and nukes are the way
to go. But you still must convince at least those doing the attack that it
is the right thing to do, and then survive the inevitable political
backlash when word leaks out. (And, yes, no matter how black the op, word
WILL eventually leak out).

IMHO:

Drop troops are for securing an LZ for less mobile troops, despite R
Heinlein's Mobile Infantry. Traveller Drop troops are not RH's MI, despite
the obvious insiration therefrom. MI were in existance to fight the bugs.
Traveller has few bugs (Noted ones include the Chamax), but lotsa DT's.
DT's are a cross between paratroopers, spetznaz, and Ogre/GEV (by SJG)
infantry: light, fast, practically invulnerable to non-power-armored trops,
and victims of tanks in direct fights. they are as mobile as infantry, with
the ability to survive hostile environments, but a tank can kill them with
frightening efficiency (See MT, striker or striker II). they hit dirt
between 5 and 15 minutes from orbit drop, and saturate a small area, and
hold until reinforced by landing ships, some 10 to 30 minutes later. then
they reinforce the tanks. They often are grav-capable, so they can keep up
with  non-grav tanks well enough, and a combined landing force of DT's and
grav tanks is quite potent, as well as capable of a wide range of action.

their expense makes them the beach head takers, and the other (army) troops
follow them in.

First and foremost a marine, first and foremost a DROPTROOP!

References: MT, Striker, Striker II, Invasion Earth, Imperium, Spinward
Marches campiagn, several JTAS, several Traveller Digests, TNE, FF&S.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 17 Jun 96 10:24:55 MS
Subject: QSDS Ships Galore

So I spend a few hours last night and do up all of the standard ship designs 
from the Traveller Book into QSDS stats.  I decide to mail them out this 
morning, as I was getting sleepy.  And then, of course, I walk off and leave 
them at home.  Gaaaa....

I'll have them in the mail tonight.  Still got big crews, but otherwise OK.  
And some of the ships were a lot cheaper using QSDS than they were in the 
Travller Book.  Maybe Sylea was able to expand so well because of its cheap 
cost of living?

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:01:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: QSDS

On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> >QSDS is the Quick Ship Design System, which was created by Guy Garnett 
> >(AKA Wildstar@qrc.com) in response to a ...er...mild disagreement that 
> 
> mild disagreement?!?!
> 
> Not within the Traveller inner circle!
> 
> Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!
> 
> Help, I can't breathe!!!  :)

Here I am, trying to portray us as a rational, unified group of Traveller 
enthusiasts, and you go and mess it up.  Watch it, you'll give us a bad 
reputation. :P  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:03:53 -0700
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

At 11:40 AM 6/17/96 -0600, you wrote:
>
>> >Mesons will decay along the beam path.  Ships in orbit will see a long
>> >thin gamma source coming up from the surface.  In other words, they'll
>> >see the beam.  If they see it fire a few times, they'll triangulate the
>> >position.
>> 
>> Do not the Meson's just magically "appear" inside the ship with no trail to
>> follow back?  Thats how I understood they worked.  If this is untrue then
>> what the hell is the advantage of building meson guns in the first place.
>
>No.  They are accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of
>light and travel towards the target like any other particle beam.
>
>In extremely simplified terms:
>
>The idea in traveller is that knowing the halflife of pions (something
>like 1E-15 seconds---don't have a ref handy) you accelerate them so
>that due to relativity effects they decay in the same time to
>themselves, but to outside (non-relativistic) observers (the shooter and
>the target) the decay takes long enough for them to reach the target.
>
>In traveller (not real life) these mesons are extremely non-interactive,
>so they pass right through armor or even planets, only decaying around
>their half-lives.
>
>Some will decay before the target, som past it regardless.

So technically speaking you'd have to be looking at the target when the
meson burst hit inorder to tell which direction the shot came from.  I
understood the accelerated partical stuff and I always figured there should
be a way to track them back.  When the particals appear they should "smear"
(good technical term) in one direction, thus if you are observing these
particals as they materialize you should be able to get an angle on the
shot.  Of course the idea of actually looking at the right spot at the right
time is so astronomically small as to be next to impossible.  Given the
damage a planetary meson gun can do you'd loose a wack of large ships before
you figured out where it was.  And the first shot would likely go after the
command ship.  Or the largest ship available.

DS


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:22:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Thrusters

"Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com> said:

>It's also been stipulated (by virtue of history and Traveller "feel")
>that non-military spacecraft can operate relatively freely, even in a

   This doesn't conflict with my traffic control system, nor does
   my TCS defy Traveller canon. Some sort of Port Authority and patrol
   network is implied throughout Traveller canon.

   I also implied (a change from my very first post on the subject) that
   *any* flight plan could be acceptable, as long as it doesn't intersect
   with the atmosphere and you don't try to move asteroids without a
   (nominal) license. I don't postulate draconian authorities, just a bit
   of paperwork (and another use for Admin :) for players that have
   LEGITIMATE reasons to move an asteroid.

>populated star system. Therefore, they do not pose a terrible threat

   Impossible. Anything that's capable of reaching escape welocity
   is a threat. That means *all* space craft violate your assumptions.
   Thrusters aren't a violation -- your assumptions are.

   No matter what you do to Thrusters to hamstring them they will always
   be able to cause SERIOUS damage to planets, and nothing you can do can
   change that. Ditto for HEPlaR.

   Heck a 1mt rock hitting at 50km/sec is going to hit like a NUKE no
   matter that it's being pushed by a HEPlaR thruster or a reactionless
   thruster.

>I'm going to make a few statements about thruster plates. You don't
>have to buy any of them, but these are necessary for consistency in
>*my concept* of the Traveller universe:

>o There must be a reason to use them instead of fusion rockets

   There already is one - no need for reaction mass.

>o They must not produce planet-killers (e.g., >0.1c dropped rocks)

   <sigh> No matter *what* you do this will ALWAYS be possible.

   Ignoring it won't make it go away. Ignoring it also goes against the
   grain of s/f in general.

>o They must not produce more energy than is applied to them (if they
>  seem to, there is a logical explanation that prevents it from
>  being used for some purpose other than maneuvering)

   *IF* you mean that there must be a reasonable power consumption, ok
   I agree with you. If you mean "the thruster must not violate
   conservation of energy as KE compared to a planet" then I totally
   disagree. Making thrusters conform to this restriction while not
   making the same restriction on reaction drives is ludicrous and
   makes no sense.

>Think it through, or leave it out. Otherwise you end up with
>statements like "of course every planet is just covered with deep
>meson guns" (which doesn't work anyway--planets without that
>technology are not being bombarded either).

   100% agree on thinking things through.

   There is one simple problem with that last, you assume that a
   vulnerable planet will *always* fight. Why can't they surrender?

   This is implied, as I mentioned in another post, in many places
   in Traveller canon.


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #108
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 17 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 109

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Meson beams 
         2. More rocks and thrusters
         3. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
         4. Re: Oh, God, not rox again!
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #101
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #102
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #103
         8. Problems
         9. Re: QSDS
        10. Re: Problems
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #102
        12. Traveller for Sale
        13. Missing Guys...
        14. Re: Problems
        15. Psycopathic crowbars?
        16. QSDS Ships Galore

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:26:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Meson beams 

merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt) said:

>> In practise yes, but my reading of _Traveller_ meson beams has always been that
>> they don't have a spread of velocities and decay points, they all decay at the
>> same point in space. Unrealistic, perhaps, but it does stop you backtracking
>> them (and if they were decaying along their length, you could track the
>> atmospheric effects with EM sensors from infra-red up).

>They can't all decay at the same point, it's just a probability (or,
>rather they won't, they could but it's highly unlikely :-).

>I never recall reading that they all decay at the exact same point in
>space, though.  Close enough to put most/a lot of them inside the
>target, but I don't remember the canon explicitly saying that mesons
>don't act at all the way we'd expect them to.

   My tack on this is that MGs have a very "tight" targetting solution,
   but _do_ have some spillover. This could be used to triangulate a DMS,
   but only over an extended period of time. (It'd be hard to get an *exact*
   bearing on a random-probability-smeared meson trail)


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 




------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:21:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: More rocks and thrusters

>>Larry Hadley wrote:

>> Lets stop for a moment and look at the events involved in an (opposed)
attack on a planet with DKs. <<

>This assumes an unopposed defence, which is only one of the scenarios being
>discussed. In an opposed defence, the home player needs to punch a way through
>the attackers to the rock in the first place, then keep them off his back while
>he works at redirecting it,

  Why? Even at fractional cee velocites it is going to take *days* to arrive,
  the defenders have plenty of time to fight the attackers, and deflect it at
  leisure once the battle is over. If the defenders lose, they are then at the
  mercy of the attackers.

  This is TRIVIAL to prove.

>and will probably have already lost a significant
>part of his out-system sensor-net and therefore reaction time. In the pure

  Again, why? PEMS sensor nets (the only reasonable solution, no AEMS net is
  going to have the necessary range) are undetectable at any reasonable range,
  given the size of a solar system - they give off no emissions. Therefor,
  without advance info (probably classified) about the location of the
  "traffic" sensors, the attackers would have no idea where they are. (Certainly
  some educated guesses, but assuming a military attack they would have too little
  time to do an aggressive search)

>terrorist attack case, the most difficult attack to defend against might be a
>rock (or snowball) accelerated from the Oort or even beyond. The envelope over
>which the rock may be detected and intercepted will be wider, but the average
>speed of the rock will be much higher, making the task of intercepting and
>matching vectors to redirect the rock all the more difficult. Course corrections
>for targetting become more difficult the higher your speed (you need bigger
>inputs to counter the reduced flight time), but conversely your initial
>targetting solution becomes more accurate as there is less time for the chaotic
>effects of an n-body problem to make your accuracy wander.

   <sigh> It's trivial to prove that it's very easy to deflect such an attack,
   given the existence of thrusters (which is the main point of contention here)

   Thrusters make such an attack more dangerous, but also make it easier
   to deal with because the defenders can burn in at max thrust over a
   sustained period without having to worry about fuel consumption. Also,
   don't forget the attackers are hobbled by this B.M.F. asteroid, and given
   any reasonable civilian craft are going to have accelerations in the sub-G
   range. It's also likely that the terrorists will only have one or two craft
   to send on such an attack, and will be no problem for a couple (or even one)
   SDB's to dispatch.

   I'm of the opinion that such an attack is much more likely to be made with
   a HEPlaR assumption than a Thruster assumption, because the attacker *knows*
   the defender can't possibly stop it with restricted fuel use.

>For a really nasty attack, jump your own rock into deep space and start
>accelerating it from a light-year out. With a big enough engine you'll be
>travelling at a high enough a fraction of C by the time you enter the opposing
>planet's space defense environment that their reaction times will be very
>seriously reduced.

   This is a pure military solution, unless what you *really* want is a Dinosaur
   Killer (destroy the ecology instead of the planet) you just aren't going to
   have a big enough jump field to carry a big enough asteroid fast enough with a
   civilian craft.

   As such, the tactic is valid and *must* stand.

   I refer you to _Trillion Credit Squadron_, page 38 "For simplicity, to
   avoid the necessity of worrying about armies, PLANETARY BOMBARDMENT[*],
   and other factors outside the scope of a purely naval campaign, the
   following abstract rule for surrender is provided"

   This is Traveller canon (written by MM), and implies that planetary
   bombardment, ie dropping rocks is a normal course of events in a military
   campaign. Throughout TCS, there are hints that a planet confronted by
   such a situation, without Naval support *will* surrender to avoid such
   a fate. This further implies this *has* happened before somewhere in the
   5000 year history of the human race. (And probably was treated with the
   horror it deserved...)

>And of course, in the Black War case, many of the planets hit didn't have the
>resources left to counter conventional raids, never mind C-fractional strikes.

   Can you say "surrender"? Sure you can!

[*] Emphasis mine.


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
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violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:38:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:
> At 12:44 PM 6/16/96 -0600, you wrote:
> 
> Do not the Meson's just magically "appear" inside the ship with no trail to
> follow back?  Thats how I understood they worked.  If this is untrue then
> what the hell is the advantage of building meson guns in the first place.
> It'd be cheaper and quicker to plant thousands of silo's in the ground and
> launch PDM's at anything in orbit.
> 
> If the meson's appear inside the ship they should, in theory, be completely
> untracable back to their source.  

   I think the original intention of the inventor of DMSes (somebody
involved with the original Striker rules) had the intention of using the
meson gun as an untraceable source fo firepower, however Merrick is quite
right in that the laws of probablity allow some slew in the tragetting of
mesons.

  (A quick digression: MGs use lightspeed time-dilation to increase the
HALF-LIFE of the meson to a point where it will survive long enough
arrive on target. The term "half-life" is significant - this is a measure
of probability, and is not 100% accurate, therefor there will be some
deviation in the *expected* decay rate, and some mesons will decay outside
the target area. Since the meson gun fires along a path this translates
into an elongated diamond decay area that points back to the MG. I'm of
the opinion this is too vague to use to ACCURATELY shoot at the MG, but
could be used to send down commandoes to the general area to locate
and deal with it.) 

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:48:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Oh, God, not rox again!

On 17 Jun 1996, Hugh Foster wrote:
> 
> I don't allow planetbuster weapons in my game.
> 
> See how easy it is? Wow! None of this learned squabbling about whether this
> defence can stop rox flying at .8c or whathaveyou. Planetbuster would upset the
> flavour of my game and campaign, so if anyone asks, it doesn't work. Then we get
> on with roleplaying.

   I'm sorry, that's not enough. No matter what you do, PBs should
*logically* be possible. Given the fact that spacecraft can reach escape
velocity - and there's no way to get around that, then PB's *are*
possible.

   If you were my ref, and you insisted on making things you don't like
illegal in such an *arbitrary* fashion, you'd be short one more player.

   I treat my players with respect, and give their desires at least as
much concern as I give my own.

   RPGs are about _fun_, and if the players want to play scenarios where
the threat of PB's is central to the plot, then so be it. I don't let my
players control the game but I do let them have fun.

   Any referee that forgets this is going to be playing solo. (and I've
met more than one)

> And finally, please could people calm down, stop flaming and remember this is
> supposed to be a pleasurable hobby. Thankyew.

   Eh? I'm not flaming anyone, nor am I aware of anyone else flaming me. I
thought we were being at least somewhat rational about this. :)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:21:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #101

>> >>I'm from Vancouver so far be it for me to argue with someone from a s
>> >>one third of all pickup trucks have gun racks  8-)
>> 
>> >You must have Texas confused with New York.  
>> >The ratio here is more like 8 out of 10 :-).
>> 
>Actually, Maybe this person is thinking about California; Only about 1/3
>of the pickups there had gun racks. Being from Tennessee, where
>motorcycles have gun racks, this seems kind of silly.
>What was this silly Canadians original problem, anyway? I seem to have
>missed it.

Because I'm from Texas he was trying to make a joke based on the fallacy
that more guns equals more violence.  Notice the '8-)' in his post.

I've always wanted to know why Traveller Law Level was based on the type 
of weapons the government let you carry.  Perhaps like tech level,
law level shouldn't be considered so 'cut and dry'.  I can easily
imagine a world with a law level of 4 that prohibits all weapons.
Also I can see a world with a law level of 9 that requires all citizens
to openly carry laser weapons.

- -Daniel




>Without the Imperium, Traveller is just a set of rules.  Rules are easy to 
>write.  Anyone can write rules.  I've written enough games to have found 
>that the rules are the easy part.  
>
>The only thing that makes Traveller worth buying is the Imperium
>background, just as the only thing that makes GURPS worth buying is the
>plethora of wonderful worldbooks which are fully compatible with the 

I can accept your opinon, but I don't aggree with it.  Traveller was
the rule system, not the Imperium.  Other Sci-Fi games used complex,
hard to use rules and then tried to gloss over it with detailed 
and creative backgrounds.  Much as I ingore the Imperium I admit 
it is a well thought out background.  But Traveller gained market 
share not because it was the first, but because it had the best
proffessional appearance and the best set of rules.

- -Daniel



>Plus there is a good side/dark side to the Imperium, which makes it feel a 
>lot more real to me than either one.  In Star Trek, the heroes are 
>always white knights, the villains are always humans in funny suits.  
>Hell, I've seen campaigns in Traveller where the PC's were being 
>almost as scummy as the people they were trying to doublecross, 
>defeat, or stop.  The nice moral dilemmas presented in the game at 
>times (lots of times, in my adventures), just make the future seem 
>more real.

This is very generic.  'Official' background didn't produce the idea
of good side/dark side.  

>> This has not been true for a *long* time.  T4 will need to give folks a 
>> reason to play it and not GRUPS Space.  Rules alone won't do it (even 
>> tough I don't much like GURPS rules).

The 'reason' to play MMT should be because the rules will make it easy for 
the players to ask 'what if..', not because they define what color Stephens
throne is today.  No one played D&D because GreyHawk was so detailed.  
They played it because they had interesting ideas that they wanted to
build a game around.

>My point as well.  Just put the background in the back of the book, 
>not in the middle of the character generation system, as was done in 
>TNE.

Why not produce two books then?  One with rules, the other with background.
That way I won't have to carry around 1,000 pages of Imperium history I don't
want or need.

*******************************************

>Definitely.  Even a casual glance at the current RPG market will show the 
>attraction of the setting VS the rules.  

I'm not so certain I aggree.  Sales of RPGs has been falling over the last
number of years.  Could it be because of the settings?  (Just how many dark
games do we need anyway?)

********************************************

>Yup.  As I've said before, the format taken in The Traveller Book works 
>well.  The rules are up front, the setting and a few adventures are in 
>the back.  ('course, in T4 I'd expect to see a little more of the setting 
>than was in The Traveller Book.)

I won't.  I'ld rather see the space used for more detail on generating 
animal encounter charts.  I'ld rather see more space used to detail
star system generation tables.  More space used to explain skills and combat.
Save background for where it belongs, published adventures and supplements.

********************************************

> ::>were given.  All the rules were mere frameworks upon which the
> ::>GM could build consistant roleplaying situations.
>
> But not everyone that plays RPGs feels they have the kind of
> imagination necessary to do this.  A background "canon" relieves

> from point a to point b.  This kind of universe is going to have a
> completely different "feel" from the canonical universe.  Thus, I

This will always be the case when 'official' background is ignored.

> other genres and other systems.  T:2300 (later called 2300AD)
> offered nothing over Traveller, and had no connection with
> Traveller, except the (original) name.  Dark Conspiracy had

T:2300 might have had more success if it was just new background
rather than new rules.  But that's just my opinon.

> sue us."  Not that EGG necessarily did a bad job (never looked at
> it; don't know) - but almost anything in the pre-technological

I did (saw Gangerous Journeys).  Complete waste of good paper.


- -Daniel


------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:21:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #102

>This "silly Canadian" didn't have a "problem".  It was part of a closing remark
>made by myself during a discussion about general firearms with another
member of
>this list.  It was meant to show that just because we (Canadians) don't
have the
>Constitutional Right to Bear Arms, we can still have a vested interest in them
>(and we can acquire them through the proper channels).  Others on the list seem
>to have taken little offense to my remark and a few of them even built upon it
>(including yourself).  I, however, *have* taken offense to your closing remark.
>Would you care to explain yourself?

Just as a point of interest.  Our constitution does not 'grant' us
the right to keep and bear arms. It only protects that right (and others)
which we would have even in the absence of the constitution. 



------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:21:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #103

>>It's pointless to try to bend Traveller physics around the problem when 
>>it would be much easier to deal with it as one would in the real 
>>universe where it is a real problem. The mindset of the traveller 
>>society would be that only a psycopath would drop a rock on a 
>>planet. Anyone caught doing that would be treated like a psycopath.

Like mad cow disease I've tried to stay away from this "rocks from
space" thread.  But when posters start talking about the 'mindset'
of the traveller society I can't help but jump in.

By mindset do you mean 'human' mindset?  Don't forget there
are other minds out there.  Some minds might consider it the
greatest of social accomplishments to drop a rock on some
highly populated world.   I think there was a race (the Brinn??)
who went to great lengths to wipe out every single human on
any planet they find. 

- -Daniel


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 15:25:59 -0700
Subject: Problems

I have to as you people.  I've just finished upgrading from a 486x33 to a
Pentium 100 and I'm having killer problems keeping windows up and running.
Is windows 3.1 incapable of handling the speed of the computer or is there
something really obvious that I'm missing out on.  Everytime I get going on
Netscape it crashes 3-6 times.  I get all kinds of Unknown TTF errors and
the list goes on.  The stupid thing is dos works just fine.

DS


------------------------------

From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:56:20 -0500
Subject: Re: QSDS

On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

>On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
>
>> >QSDS is the Quick Ship Design System, which was created by Guy Garnett 
>> >(AKA Wildstar@qrc.com) in response to a ...er...mild disagreement that 
>> 
>> mild disagreement?!?!
>> 
>> Not within the Traveller inner circle!
>> 
>> Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!
>> 
>> Help, I can't breathe!!!  :)
>
>Here I am, trying to portray us as a rational, unified group of Traveller 
>enthusiasts, and you go and mess it up.  Watch it, you'll give us a bad 
>reputation. :P  

Sorry, (*gasp*) but I (*pant*) couldn't help myself (*chuckle*).

Talk about your knee jerk reaction!!


Paul  {tiger}              http://www.datasync.com/~tiger/

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
    - Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
    - Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: farrarb@vnet.net
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:17:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Problems

Hiya derek,

let me see if i can help:)

First question: do you have the same amount of memory (i.e. is everything 
else the same)  In windows, especially, the amount ofmemory you have is 
almost *more* important than processor speed...

second question: what exactly is the error you're getting...I might be 
able to help:)

bill



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 16:21:54 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #102

At 05:21 PM 6/17/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Just as a point of interest.  Our constitution does not 'grant' us
>the right to keep and bear arms. It only protects that right (and others)
>which we would have even in the absence of the constitution. 

This is way the hell off topic but I believe, and I will get flamed on this
one I'm sure, the line grants you "the right to bear arms in an organized
militia." or something to that effect.  One of my friends was born in
Arkansas, and he says that's how the line goes.  Being a Canadain, I really
didn't care much but I filed it away with all the other reams of usless
information I've got stored in my head.

There's a little gnome up there that runs around flashing inforation in
front of my eyes at the most inopportune times.  8)

DS


------------------------------

From: "Stephen M. Daly" <daly@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 17:31:04 -0700
Subject: Traveller for Sale

Hi list,

Wanted to let people know that I have some Classic Traveller and 
MegaTraveller materials for sale. 
The list is posted at

http://enterprise.shv.hb.se/~goeran/traveller/lounge

Stephen

------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:36:06 -0400
Subject: Missing Guys...

Greetings All:

I'm missing contact with a few folks involved in my Traveller Sale/Auction.
If anybody has heard from:

[jimv@e2.empirenet.com (Jim Vassilakos)]
TOM@dutg0.martech.fsu.edu (Tom Trelenberg)
TOM@surf0.martech.fsu.edu (Tom Trelenberg)

Please let them know that I'm trying to make sure they get their shot!

Thanks.

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)



------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@worldweb.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:45:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Problems

Win 3.x should run fine on your Pentium.  There are a BUNCH of other things
that might make it ill, though.  Check w/somebody who's hardware/Windows
literate FTF to see whether your BIOS, caching, memory use, etc., are all
happy.  It may well be something silly/simple but likely isn't at all
obvious.  Doing it by email/mailing list may only make you miserabler... - Bill

At 03:25 PM 6/17/96 -0700, you wrote:
>I have to as you people.  I've just finished upgrading from a 486x33 to a
>Pentium 100 and I'm having killer problems keeping windows up and running.
>Is windows 3.1 incapable of handling the speed of the computer or is there
>something really obvious that I'm missing out on.  Everytime I get going on
>Netscape it crashes 3-6 times.  I get all kinds of Unknown TTF errors and
>the list goes on.  The stupid thing is dos works just fine.
>
>DS
>
>


------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 22:45:21 -0400
Subject: Psycopathic crowbars?

Just look at the current situation.  It's ok in war to shoot the enemy
with steel cored rounds, shread them with fragmentation & flechettes,
roast 'em with naplam, or even pound them flatter than pancakes with FAE
bombs.  
  Blinding them with a laser however, that's *right out*!

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
               http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: scharlto@RTD.COM (Steve Charlton)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:56:09 -0700 (MST)
Subject: QSDS Ships Galore

Here is a pile o' QSDS-designed ships.  Actually, this is part one; I have=
=20
yet more I shall post tomorrow.  Sorry about the length, for those of you=20
who pay by the byte.

The ships in this post are the Scout, the Free Trader (corrected), the Far=
=20
Trader (corrected), the Subsized Merchant, the Subsidized Liner (had to make=
=20
my own hull) and the ever-popular Mercenrary Cruiser (or as my PCs call it,=
=20
the GolfBall).

Tomorrow I will post the Patrol Cruiser, the Lab Ship, the Yacht and the=20
Safari Ship.  Accolades/criticisms and all other feedback are welcome.


Scout
Tons:  100		Volume: 1400		Cost: 49.463 (29.43)
Crew:  1 (1)		Passengers (H/M): 0	Passengers (L): 0
Cargo: 18.9 (3)		Controls: Bridge/Fib	Tech Level: 11

08 Size Rating			02 Jump Rating=7F
00 Fire Control Rating		02 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery  		            02 Power Plant Rating (1x 100 MW)
00 Battery			20.5 Fuel Rating
00 Battery			00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery			00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery			00 Damper Rating
00 Battery			A0 P2 J0 Sensors TL10 Improved
00 Battery		=09
00 Battery			10 Armor	6 Structure

Crew Detail: 1 Pilot/Engineer
                (1 Pilot/Engineer)
Notes:  Before adjustments, this thing had a crew of 8.  The power plant=20
allows the addition of a
fairly wimpy civilian laser or a missile; there is enough extra cargo to add=
=20
an extra power plant
for a better laser.  The ship uses TL11 Improved Commo, and has a 10-ton=20
capacity Fuel
purifier.  There is an Air Raft as well.


Free Trader
Tons:  200		Volume: 190.6		Cost: 51.029 (37.08)
Crew:  7 (4)		Passengers (H/M): 6 (6)	Passengers (L): 10 (20)
Cargo: 73.8 (82)	Controls: Bridge	Tech Level: 11

08 Size Rating			01 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating		01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery  		           .6 Power Plant Rating (6x 20 MW)
00 Battery			20.6 Fuel Rating
00 Battery			00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery			00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery			00 Damper Rating
00 Battery			A0 P2 J0 Sensors TL10 Improved
00 Battery		=09
00 Battery			0 Armor	6 Structure

Crew Detail: 4 Engineers, 1 Astrogator, 1 Command/Pilot, 1 Medic/Steward.
             (1 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Medic, 1 Steward)
Notes:  The Free Trader has TL11 Improved Commo, and a TL11 10-ton capcaity=
=20
fuel purifier.
The hull is a Streamlined Box (4S)


Far Trader
Tons:  200		Volume: 190.6		Cost: 51.229
Crew:  7		Passengers (H/M): 6	Passengers (L): 10
Cargo: 53.8 (65)	Controls: Bridge	Tech Level: 11

08 Size Rating			02 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating		01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery  		        .6 Power Plant Rating (6x 20 MW)
00 Battery			40.6 Fuel Rating
00 Battery			00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery			00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery			00 Damper Rating
00 Battery			A0 P2 J0 Sensors TL10 Improved
00 Battery		=09
00 Battery			0 Armor	6 Structure

Crew Detail: 4 Engineers, 1 Astrogator, 1 Command/Pilot, 1 Medic/Steward.
             (1 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Medic, 1 Steward)
Notes:  The Far Trader has TL11 Improved Commo, and a TL11 10-ton capcaity=
=20
fuel purifier.
The hull is a Streamlined Box (4S)


Subsidized Merchant
Tons:  400		Volume: 5600		Cost: 78.656 (101.03)
Crew:  12 (5)		Passengers (H/M): 13	Passengers (L): 9
Cargo: 271 (200)	Controls: Bridge	Tech Level: 11

08 Size Rating			01 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating		01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery  		           .5 Power Plant Rating (1x 200 MW)
00 Battery			41.1 Fuel Rating
00 Battery			00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery			00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery			00 Damper Rating
00 Battery			A0 P2 J0 Sensors TL10 Improved
00 Battery		=09
00 Battery			20 Armor	16 Structure

Crew Detail: 7 Engineers, 1 Electronics, 1 Astrogator, 1 Command, 1 Medic,=
=20
1Steward.
             (1 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Navigator, 1 Medic, 1 Steward)
Notes:  The Subsidized Merchant has TL11 Improved Commo, and a TL11 10-ton=
=20
capcaity fuel
purifier.  The hull is a Streamlined Slab (8S).  The shiip has a 20-ton=20
Ship's Boat in a
Streamlined Grapple


Subsidized Liner
Tons:  600		Volume: 8400		Cost: 82.097 (236.97)
Crew:  14 (9)		Passengers (H/M): 21	Passengers (L): 20
Cargo: 105 (129)	Controls: Bridge	Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating			03 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating		01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery  		           .33 Power Plant Rating (1x 200 MW)
00 Battery			181.1 Fuel Rating
00 Battery			00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery			00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery			00 Damper Rating
00 Battery			A2 P3 J0 Sensors TL12 Improved
00 Battery		=09
00 Battery			0 Armor	9 Structure

Crew Detail: 7 Engineers, 1 Electronics, 1 Astrogator, 2 Command, 1 Medic, 2=
=20
Steward.
             (3 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Navigator, 1 Medic, 3 Steward)
Notes:  The Subsidized Liner has TL12 Improved Commo, and a TL12 10-ton=20
capcaity fuel
purifier.  The hull is an Unstreamlined Close Structure (7U).  The ship=20
carries a 20-ton Ship's
Boat in a Spacious Hangar (also used as a large meeting room and sports=20
facility)


Mercenary Cruiser
Tons:  800		Volume: 11200		Cost: 424.874 (445.95)
Crew:  59 (8)		Passengers (H/M): 40	Passengers (L): 2
Cargo: 19 (80)		Controls: Bridge/Fib	Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating			03 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating		03 G Rating / Thruster
01 Battery Mil Lsr 3-3-2-0           1.8 Power Plant Rating (1x 750 MW)
02 Battery Mil Lsr 3-3-2-0	244 Fuel Rating
03 Battery Missile Barbette (5)	00 Meson Screen Rating
04 Battery Missile Barbette (5)	02 (30) Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery			01 Damper Rating
00 Battery			A10 P4 J10 Sensors TL12 Small Military
00 Battery		=09
00 Battery			60 Armor	14 Structure

Crew Detail: 27 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 1 Astrogator, 1 Pilot, 4 Gunnery,=
=20
3 Screens,
	4 Small Craft Crew, 14 Command, 2 Medic, 1 Steward, 40 troops.
             (4 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Navigator, 1 Command, 1 Medic)
Notes:  The Mercenary Cruiser has TL12 AdvancedCommo, and a TL12 10-ton=20
capcaity fuel
purifier.  The hull is an Unstreamlined Sphere (5U).  The ship carries two=
=20
50-ton Modular Cutters
and 2 extra modules in grapples on the landing legs, as well as 2 ATVs and 2=
=20
Air Rafts.  There
are 2 Low Berths for medical emergencies.


Steven T. Charlton
I don't recall installing this=20
"General Protection Fault" Screen Saver
scharlto@avalon.com (work)  scharlto@rtd.com (home)


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #109
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 18 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 110

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Meson beams
         2. Meson guns
         3. RE: Thrusters
         4. Re: Meson beams
         5. Varia... and an offer.
         6. [none]
         7. QSDS: Ajax Frigate design
         8. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
         9. RE: Thrusters
        10. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
        11. Re: Horses on Independence Day 4  [was Re: Orbital kablooie, etc.]
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #91
        13. Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 22:06:44 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Meson beams

 
>    My tack on this is that MGs have a very "tight" targetting solution,
>    but _do_ have some spillover. This could be used to triangulate a DMS,
>    but only over an extended period of time. (It'd be hard to get an *exact*
>    bearing on a random-probability-smeared meson trail)

Well, I didn't say it would be easy to detect it, just that it could be.
I don't see it as being all that hard, though.  When you consider that
DMSs are gonna be the very biggest MGs, using the most energy, it gets
even easier.

- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 18:49:47 -0600
Subject: Meson guns

On 06/17/96 at 09:34 AM,  derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> said:

>Do not the Meson's just magically "appear" inside the ship with no
>trail to follow back?  Thats how I understood they worked.  

My understanding is that they are accelerated to such a
relativistic velocity that they have a chance to go a long way before
decaying...right?  The problem, of course, is that meson decay rate is
based on half-life. So by the time then get on target, have half of
them already decayed?  Even if not half *some* percentage would have
already decayed.

If you extend this idea then what you've got a situation not quite
like the books seem to indicate.  Shouldn't a graph of energy
depositied (when mesons decay) look like a normal curve? Delaying
their decay via velocity should push the whole curve to the
right...but shouldn't it also spread it out lowering the peak?

Different idea.  Whatever is keeping the mesons from decaying *isn't*
their velocity but some force travelling along with the meson pulse. 
At some range this force disipates and the mesons all decay normally. 
This gives us the situation where virtually all the mesons decay at
once.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 18:15:16 -0600
Subject: RE: Thrusters

On 06/17/96 at 09:29 AM,  "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
said:

>How do M-drives work? Just fine, thank you very much.

>Others (particularly "gearheads") will be tempted to try to explain
>their mechanics. 

I'm not a gearhead, but I play with people that won't take "They just
do" for an answer, so I'm always looking for a plasible sounding
explaination for the way things work.

>The problem with this approach is that you cannot design them
>without considering the effect on the Traveller universe.

That's true.  I've suggested several approaches to explaining MDrive
tech here myself, as have others, each of our ideas have effects on
the way the game plays.

>My "zeta field" suggestion was one attempt to reconcile the Thruster
>plates *I am familiar with* with the Traveller universe. There are
>certainly other ways to do it.

Absolutely, and that's my point in talking about *ways* that MDrives
could work.  I'm not interested in some canon
explanation telling me the one and only way, I'd rather have several
choices.  That way folks can pick a method that fits *their* idea of
Traveller.

>For example, it has been stated that they will be gravitically-based.
>Fine--they operate in a different "mode", where the energy-limiting
>factor is not the conversion to gravitic potential energy but rather
>to kinetic energy. They essentially transfer applied energy directly
>and efficiently into thrust. Define a practical upper speed limit on
>the capabilities of the technology and you're in business. 

You'll have to expand on this idea some before I understand it...

>I'm going to make a few statements about thruster plates. You don't
>have to buy any of them, but these are necessary for consistency in
>*my concept* of the Traveller universe:

>o There must be a reason to use them instead of fusion rockets 

>o They must not produce planet-killers (e.g., >0.1c dropped rocks) 

>o They must not produce more energy than is applied to them (if they
>  seem to, there is a logical explanation that prevents it from
>  being used for some purpose other than maneuvering)

Personally, I'd like to add an upper limit on velocity (or
psuedo-velocity), because that fits *my concept* of the Traveller
universe.  <g> But that's just *my* concept, not everybody elses, I
*don't* want to impose any restrictions on the discussion.

The way people play Traveller ranges from close to reality to pure
space opera.  Expressing ideas here for either approach, or anything
in between are appropriate.  However, we might want to say how tight
or loose we are playiing with reality when we post our ideas. <g>

>I'll say it again: I don't care how (or whether) you explain the
>mechanics behind M-drives. Just don't make the mistake of boxing
>yourself in a corner trying to justify a particular explanation.
>Think it through, or leave it out. 

Which is why I bring up ideas up here, so I can have some help
shooting them full of holes. 

When I propose various alternative technologies, I'm not proposing
canonical explainations.  What I'm doing is trying to do is explore
some possible alternatives.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 22:38:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Meson beams

On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

>
> >    My tack on this is that MGs have a very "tight" targetting solution,
> >    but _do_ have some spillover. This could be used to triangulate a DMS,
> >    but only over an extended period of time. (It'd be hard to get an *exact*
> >    bearing on a random-probability-smeared meson trail)
>
> Well, I didn't say it would be easy to detect it, just that it could be.
> I don't see it as being all that hard, though.  When you consider that
> DMSs are gonna be the very biggest MGs, using the most energy, it gets
> even easier.
>
> -Merrick

I have a somewhat tangential question:  From where do the DMS's get their
targeting solutions?  Are there meson sensors that allow them to target
from within the planet?  If they are that deep, in all likelyhood,
neutrino emissions will be clouded---which means they would probably
prefer to use surface based sensors for a more accurate solution---take
those out, one take out some of their accuracy.  Also, on the subject of
combating DMS's: they have to be able to get the crews, etc. IN somehow
(how many troops do you think will volunteer to get sealed into something
analogous to the Biosphere II just to operate a DMS? Not many)---which
means any hostiles also have a potential method in (I didn't say it would
be an easy one).

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:01:33 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Varia... and an offer.

        Derek Stanley wrote:
>
>I have to as you people.  I've just finished upgrading from a 486x33 to a
>Pentium 100 and I'm having killer problems keeping windows up and running.
>Is windows 3.1 incapable of handling the speed of the computer or is there
>something really obvious that I'm missing out on.  Everytime I get going on
>Netscape it crashes 3-6 times.  I get all kinds of Unknown TTF errors and
>the list goes on.  The stupid thing is dos works just fine.

        Do what I did: buy a Mac :).  Seriously, though, my old man just
went through some Netscape-related problems recently.  D'you want me to ask
him ?

        Daniel wrote:
>
>Just as a point of interest.  Our constitution does not 'grant' us
>the right to keep and bear arms. It only protects that right (and others)
>which we would have even in the absence of the constitution. 
>

        That depends on whether you're a positive-law theorist or a
natural-law theorist.  Being a good positivist, I'd argue that to talk of
rights outside the context of a legal system is like talking about breathing
in a vacuum, and therefore, the legal text that constitutes the U.S. of A.,
in defining your rights, also creates them... but I'm getting off topic.


        Getting back on topic, I've been wondering whether there are any
rules or background in Traveller regarding business associations.  I've been
thinking about throwing together a blurb on (very) basic corporate and
partnership entities, and private international (interplanetary?) law,
modified to fit Traveller.  I think it might provide some interesting
background/plot motors for the game.  If anyone's interested, I can put a
few hours in on it this weekend...



   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   |-------------------------------------------------|
   | "An imperfect plan implemented immediately and  |
   |  violently will always succeed better than a    |
   |  perfect plan"                                  |
   |	             -Gen. George Patton             |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: "Mark Ll. James" <m.james@ic.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:40:21 +0100
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe traveller m.james@ic.ac.uk
 
 Mark Ll. James             Tel.   +44(0)171 59 46944
 Network Support Group      Email    m.james@ic.ac.uk
 Centre for Computing Services
 Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine

------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:48:06 +0200
Subject: QSDS: Ajax Frigate design

     This is a ship I knocked up using Guy Garnett's Quick Ship Design 
     System.  It took me just under 2 hours with pen, paper & calculator, 
     but I was interrupted in the middle by The X-Files, and I take ages to 
     make decisions.  Comments and/or corrections would be welcomed.
     
     Cheers,
     Liam
     
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk
     
     
                  AJAX CLASS FRIGATE - 2000 ton, TL12
     
Tons : 2000               Volume  : 28,000                     Cost (MCr): 986 
Crew : 75                 Marines : 48                         Low Berth : 0 
Cargo: 150                Controls: Fib / Bridge               TL        : 12
     
9  Size Rating                               2   Jump Rating
4  Fire Control Rating                       4   G Rating / Thruster Plates 
1  PA Gun            9-7-6-5                 4   Power Plant Rating
10 Laser Turrets     2-2-0-0                 821 Fuel Rating / S / R 
4  Missile Barbettes 20 (20)                 0   Meson Screen Rating
                                             5   Sandcaster Rating (150)
                                             0   Damper Rating
                                             A16 P5 J16 Sensor Rating
     
                                             30 Armour  25 Structure
     
Notes:
Slab Airframe
Spacious Hanger for 10t launch & 30t ship's boat 
Enough fuel for J2 & J1
Can scoop 800t / hr & refine 50t / hr 
Improved comms
Military Avionics
Crew Detail - Engineering: 31, Electronics: 2, Maneuver: 2, Gunnery: 20,
              Small Craft: 7, Command: 10, Stewards: 2, Medical: 1, Marines: 48
     
Mission:
The Ajax Frigate is designed to "show the flag" and discourage piracy.  As a 
representative of Imperial might, it can patrol systems where sending a cruiser 
would be uneconomical and/or over-kill.  However, it should be more than capable
of seeing off a corsair or two with its particle accelerator and missile 
barbettes, whilst defending with sandcasters & laser turrets.  It is not 
designed to fight larger craft, so no meson screen is fitted.
     
     
Worksheet
- ---------
     
                       Volume    Power     Cost     Area     Crew     Notes
HULL: 200T, Slab Airf -1855.6    543.1     95.1    -6548 
Max G = 4, Armour = 30,
Structure = 25
     
JUMP DRIVE: J2             60                18       20      0.2 
Fuel: J2 + J1             600
     
THRUSTER PLATES: 4G       143      143      143       29      0.2
     
AVIONICS: Military        3.4      2.5     18.2      0.3        0
     
SENSORS: Medium Milit     4.5    201.2     92.9     26.2      1.2 A16 P5 J1
     
COMMS: Improved             0     10.6      0.3      101      0.4
     
WEAPONS
PA-Gun                    100   2278.7    118.6     14.7      1.8 9-7-6-5
4 X Missile Barbettes      24      0.8      0.4       80        0 20 missil 
5 X MFD                  11.5     15.5      128        8        5 20 missil 
10 X Military laser t      83      698      286      221       10 2-2-0-0
     
DEFENSE
5 X Sandcasters            15        5        4       50        5 30 volley
     
Engineering Shop            6      0.6        1        0        0 
Sick Bay                    8      0.8        5        0        0
     
Spacious Hanger: 30 t     120        0      0.4       85        0 ships boa 
Spacious Hanger: 10 t      40        0      0.2       49        0 launch
     
Fuel Purify Plant         120     25.2      0.7        0        0 50 ton/hr
     
POWER PLANT             142.8    -4000      400     4000     29.8 
Fuel                     21.4
     
65 X Workstation         32.5        0     0.13        0        0 
Bridge                     17        0        0        0        0
     
1 X Large Stateroom         4    0.001      0.1        0        0 
17 X Small Stateroom       34   0.0085     0.68        0        0
57 X Small Stateroom      114    0.057     2.28        0        0 Double oc
     
CARGO                     150
     
     
TOTAL:                   -1.5 -74.9335  1314.99  -1863.8
     
     
CREW:
Engineering                31
Electronics                 2
Maneuver                    2
Gunnery                    20
Small Craft                 7
Troops                     48
Command                    10
Stewards                    2
Medical                     1
Total Crew (without t      75
     

------------------------------

From: Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:17:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:

> At 12:44 PM 6/16/96 -0600, you wrote:
> 
> >Taking the functionality of MGs for granted, (as well as the lack of
> >decent directional neutrino detectors good enough to get a FC Lock) I'd
> >add the following.
> >
> >Mesons will decay along the beam path.  Ships in orbit will see a long
> >thin gamma source coming up from the surface.  In other words, they'll
> >see the beam.  If they see it fire a few times, they'll triangulate the
> >position.
> >
> >They still have to survive to get close enough to shoot, though.
> 
> Do not the Meson's just magically "appear" inside the ship with no trail to
> follow back?  Thats how I understood they worked.  If this is untrue then
> what the hell is the advantage of building meson guns in the first place.
> It'd be cheaper and quicker to plant thousands of silo's in the ground and
> launch PDM's at anything in orbit.
> 
> If the meson's appear inside the ship they should, in theory, be completely
> untracable back to their source.  
> 


You hope the mesons will be well behaved enough to all decay at the same
time. In fact they will probably decay with a gaussian distribution
tracing out a nice line back their source. This assumes that the standard
deviation for the distribution is large (enough time for them to seperate
a couple of hundred meters) or there are enough mesons in the package that
you can detect the ones that decay either 2 standard deviations early or
late. In either case you can pretty much figure out where the gun could 
be in a finite number of it's shots. This is an area where gunnery school 
could come in handy to keep other's from detecting your gun.

Chris
- --
      __o          "All I was doing was trying to get home from work."
    _`\<,_           -Rosa Parks
___(*)/_(*)___________________________________________________________
Christopher Sean Hilton                           <chris@vindaloo.com>
                           For pgp key finger: <chilton@shoga.wwa.com>


------------------------------

From: Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:06:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: Thrusters

On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Gerald S. Williams wrote:
> [snippage]
> 
> How do M-drives work? Just fine, thank you very much.
>
> [more snippage]
> 
> I've seen it happen--players decide to exploit the description of how
> a particular piece of technology works and end up with a superweapon,
> which can ruin the whole campaign.
> 
> My "zeta field" suggestion was one attempt to reconcile the Thruster
> plates *I am familiar with* with the Traveller universe. There are
> certainly other ways to do it.
> 
> For example, it has been stated that they will be gravitically-based.
> Fine--they operate in a different "mode", where the energy-limiting
> factor is not the conversion to gravitic potential energy but rather
> to kinetic energy. They essentially transfer applied energy directly
> and efficiently into thrust. Define a practical upper speed limit on
> the capabilities of the technology and you're in business. Note that
> these are *not* the same thrusters as described in CT, which violate
> conservation of energy unless a "mass nullifier" device is used (the
> energy requirements must be adjusted at least, meaning there is no
> more month-long "free" maneuvering).
> 
> I'm going to make a few statements about thruster plates. You don't
> have to buy any of them, but these are necessary for consistency in
> *my concept* of the Traveller universe:
> 
> o There must be a reason to use them instead of fusion rockets
> o They must not produce planet-killers (e.g., >0.1c dropped rocks)
> o They must not produce more energy than is applied to them (if they
>   seem to, there is a logical explanation that prevents it from
>   being used for some purpose other than maneuvering)
> 
> As long as there is room in the rules to let these be explained
> by those that wish to do so, pretty much any description of the
> M-drive is acceptible.
> 
> I'll say it again: I don't care how (or whether) you explain the
> mechanics behind M-drives. Just don't make the mistake of boxing
> yourself in a corner trying to justify a particular explanation.
> Think it through, or leave it out. Otherwise you end up with
> statements like "of course every planet is just covered with deep
> meson guns" (which doesn't work anyway--planets without that
> technology are not being bombarded either).
> 

It's not a matter of boxing yourself in a corner. Einstein and Newton did 
that for you and any college level physics student with a calculator and a 
knowledge of special relativity: KE = 0.5 * m * v^2 / sqrt(1 - (v / c) ^2) 
45 tJ / kg to accelerate a rock from rest to 0.1c. This amount of energy 
is well within reach of any Traveller player with access to a starship. 
Wishing it wasn't won't help you.

Chris
- --
      __o          "All I was doing was trying to get home from work."
    _`\<,_           -Rosa Parks
___(*)/_(*)___________________________________________________________
Christopher Sean Hilton                           <chris@vindaloo.com>
                           For pgp key finger: <chilton@shoga.wwa.com>


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 18:12:20 PST
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> writes:

> At 10:07 am 6/14/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >   Three words: Deep Meson Sites. Undestroyable from orbit, though you can
> >blind their sensors *if* you can find them. (Personally, I favour neutrino
> >detectors as a primary targetting sensor - no emissions to lock onto, and
> >are great for targetting fusion-powered starships)
> 
>         And just as handy for targetting fusion-powered Deep Meson Sites...
> even if you separate them, your DMS is worthless once I nail the power source

And if they *aren't* fusion powered? 

Geothermal has been mentioned. And as I have pointed out in the past,
they don't have to have an unusual thermal signature. Picture a site on
the bottom of the Pacific ocean, near a rift zone. It can use the 4 C
water and the 800+ C rock a short ways down to generate *lots* of
power. It'll just look like another bunch of "black smokers". And with
a couple of miles of water on top, the thermal signature is just about
nil. 

As a side benefit, you can extract lots of minerals from the
superheated water. 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 18:21:08 PST
Subject: Re: Horses on Independence Day 4  [was Re: Orbital kablooie, etc.]

"David Reed" <nacht@neosoft.com> writes:

> Pop Quiz:  Anybody else out there in the US market seen the previews for the
> new flick "ID4"?  'Independence Day 4'?  The previews don't really show much
> of ortillery, but the White House gets blasted, which is cool...  2 July the 
> show up, 3 July they blow up every target of opportunity, 4 July the director
> think that we'll be fighting back...  
> 
> Anybody disagree?  I know that Mr. Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net> does:
> 
> [snip]
> > > topic: how does one successfuly repel an invading force with orbital
> > > superiority?
> > 
> > One doesn't. 
> > 
> > If they've got orbital superiority, there's *no* way folks on the
> > ground are going to take that away. Consider Iraq. They lost air
> > superiority and couldn't get it back. 
> 
> If this is the case, how the hell do we win?  Sounds like T2k all over...  ;-

Nope. You see, if they don't bomb us "back to the stone age", then we
*will* have a fair amount of industrial capacity left. And a lot of
military stuff as well.

We have a lot of space designs that haven't been built either because
no one would back them, or they just didn't seem to be what we wanted
right now. Given that sort of war, we'd be building some of those
designs as fast as the dust settled. Up to and including Orion type
vehicles. 

> There has been lots of SF about indigenous species holding off the EWGR
> (Evil White Guys Reincarnated) for quite a long time with very low tech
> weapons using, one would suppose, only home field advantage and great
> esprit.  Now, if they have any kind of other advantages it makes it even
> harder, i.e. limited teleportation (Drake's _At Any Price_).

Of course, the only things protecting the natives is that the invaders
either want the use of the planet's industrial capabilities, or at
least they want it inhabitable for colonizing.

Otherwise, we are back to rock dropping. Picture the results of
dropping a small asteroid into the middle of Yellowstone. 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 18:30:42 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #91

jmg141@psu.edu (John M. Gardner) writes:

> There is also an old naval addage that goes "the shore battery always has
> the advantage over a ship, because it can not be sunk."

Spaceships have an advantage over seagoing vessels. They don't sink. If
you knock out the drives, the ship just continues on its current
vector, as modified by gravity. If the ship is in orbit (or moving slow
enough) then it'll *stay* in orbit.

You have to knock out drives, power, *and* life support to get a true
"kill". 

> Big rocks are great
> for operation "Crush and Burn", but those meson gun deep mounts can really
> ruin you day. 

Worse yet, breaking a big rock into smaller ones at the more likely
ranges just spreads out the damage a bit. 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 18:41:38 PST
Subject: Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters

Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> writes:

> On Fri, 14 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> writes:
> > 
> > > On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > It'd be *fun* sticking Bergenholms into Traveller, even if you didn't
> > allow them to reach speeds above c. :-)
> 
>   It's *real* simple to justify not reaching c with inertial dampers:
> drag. Yes, I said DRAG. Interstellar space is NOT empty. In fact, even
> (especially!) ordinary reaction drives will be limited to much less than c
> because the drag of interstellar gases as one approaches c is VERY
> significant and the exhaust velocity of your drive then becomes critical
> in determining howclose you can get to c. Of course, mass dilation
> complicates this as well.

Sure, but consider just *how* fast you have to be moving for a drive
capable of 6 g to have its thrust balanced by drag! And relativistic
mass increase doesn't matter if you are neutralizing the ship's mass.
Though I guess it'd increase the drag. 

Smith had the ships requiring force fields reinforcing the hull.

> > >    Out of curiousity, why do you believe this? A reactionless drive like
> > > thruster plates would not require reaction mass - this creates efficiency
> > > bonuses in it's own right, even when there are problems with energy
> > > consumption.
> > 
> > This was argued out in sci.space and the rec.arts.sf groups *years*
> > back. The problem is this:
> > 
> > Your ship is at rest. KE=0
> > 
> > Your "reactionless" drive accelerates it to 1 km/s. Let's call your
> > new KE 1, just to make things simple.
> > 
> > Okay, now you want to get to 2 km/s. That makes your KE *4*. And thus,
> > if conservation of energy holds, it took three times as much power to
> > get to 2 km/s as it took to get to 1. To get to 10 km/s will take 99
> > times the energy it took to get to 1 km/s.
> > 
> > See the problem? Hell, I bet the power plant fuel required to get to 30
> > km/s is bigger than the maneuver fuel required to get to 30 km/s with a
> > reaction drive! 
> 
>    This is _real_ easy to sidestep, in fact you mention the key later in
> your post: relativity. How do you measure KE? *Always* with respect to
> some frame of reference. The ship might have KE=1 with respect to a given
> planet, and KE=400 with respect to another. How do you reconcile the
> differences given the *exponential* nature of the KE equation? (Think
> about this for a minute, it'll come to you) The energy equations - even
> with a reaction drive - will give you strange answers.

Nope. They give quite straightforward answers if you analyze the system
of ship and exhaust.

>    The other question is (obviously) how do you justify the reactionless
> drive? If it's "pushing" against a planet, or some other body (perhaps the
> "fabric" of space itself?) then you have a thorny dilemma...how _do_ you
> explain the energy conservation problem?

Easy. The energy and momentum changes are shared. Energy and momentum
are conserved. But you get the "exponential" energy requirements.

> > The reason a reaction drive is so much more efficient is that it is
> > pushing on it's *exhaust*, and therefore you measure the KE change
> > relative to *that*. 
> 
>   Yep. So why can't a reactionless drive be pushing on *itself*? <g>
> We *are* talking about a reaction*less* drive! I contend that all you
> would have to pay for is the *force* you exert on the ship, same as any
> reaction drive. *Nothing* else makes any sense at all, as you've surely
> figured out judging from your post.

Ok, fine. So we use E= f*d. Which means that you have use energy based
on how *far* you travel at a given acceleration. So, let's figure for a
100 tonne (mass) ship at 1 g.

100 tonnes is 1e5 kg. 1 g is 9.8 m/s^2. So we need 9.8e5 kg m/s^2 of
force. And it takes 9.8e5 joules per meter travelled. 

So:

time	distance	energy used
- ----	--------	-----------
1 s	 4.9 m		 4.802e6 Mj
2 s	19.6 m		19.208e6 Mj
3 s	44.1 m		43.218e6 Mj
4 s	78.4 m		76.832e6 Mj

See the trend?

E=d*f
e=(0.5*a*t^2)*f
e=(0.5*9.8*t^2)*9.8e5
e=(4.9*t^2)*9.8e5
e=4.802e6*t^2

So, the energy required goes up as the *square* of the time. And
similar calcs will show that the velocity of the ship has an effect as
well. That's more of a linear relationsship, but it's still a case of
"the faster you go, the more energy it takes".

Still not practical for long term use.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #110
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 18 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 111

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Planetary Invasions
         2. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
         3. Re: More Rocks & Thrusters
         4. Re: Thrusters
         5. Re: Psycopathic crowbars?
         6. Re: [T96#89] Zeta Field/Bergenholm

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 20:59:03 PST
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasions

Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net> writes:

> Doug Berry wrote:
> > The Guide to Killing Tankers:  Strip them of their infantry.  Tankers are
> > vulnerable to infantry, and not really able to respond..  They are trapped
> > inside, for fear that the first time they stick their head outside a
> > hatch, 7.62mm of vengence will meet your skull at 2600fps. 
> 
> Perfectly true at TL 8, and for a couple of TLs after.  When grav 
> vehicles appear, though, the whole armor question gets really weird.
> 
> Right now, the reason that tanks are vulnerable to infantry is that tanks 
> *share the ground* with infantry.  To get from point A to point B, a tank 
> has to traverse lots of nasty terrain in between -- and one of Doug's 
> stalwart infantrymen, LAW in hand, could be lurking behind every tree.  
> That's why infantry was enjoying something of a renaissance in military 
> planning during the late 80s -- when one infantryman with a cheap LAW can 
> take out a very expensive tank with several crewmen, the balance tends to 
> shift around.  Note, by the way, that infantry become especially useful 
> on defense -- the attacker is constrained to moving quickly, so has to do 
> risky things like packing infantry into easy-to-shoot APCs to get them to 
> the battle.  Note also that Desert Storm was a massive tank battle 
> because (a) we were on the offensive, (b) we had total air superiority to 
> punch through pockets of resistance, and (c) the Iraqi army had some 
> serious training and equipment problems in most of its units.
> 
> Grav vehicles, though, act more like very fast, very high, very 
> well-armored attack helicopters.  In the current battlefield, 'copters 
> have one primary misstion -- tank killing -- and one primary enemy -- 
> grunts with Stingers.  When everybody is using grav, though, there are no 
> (ground) tanks to shoot at, so the action moves higher and faster, with 
> the grav tanks "dogfighting" more like aircraft, perhaps using terrain 
> now and then to hide for a moment or two.  It's not a scenario where 
> infantry is going to get much of a chance to shoot at tanks...until and 
> unless the tanks come after *them*.

I suggest that you take a long hard look at Afghanistan. The Russian
Hind helicopter fits the above description rather well. And while the
Afghans said "We do not fear the Russians, but we do fear their
helicopters", the Soviet pilots feared the people with stingers.

There's no reason to expect a grav vehicle to be safe from infantry.
After all, weapons continue to improve, and things like stingers will
get better. So will lasers, and other weapons.

The TL-12 equivalent of a mortar, or a LAW may very well be deadly to
any grav vehicle in line of sight. The laser equivalent of a .50 cal or
an anti-tank weapon like the Finnish and Soviet 17 and 20 mm anti-tank
rifles will *definitely* be a good reason for grav tanks to stay low.

I'm also willing to bet that "home on CG/AG" will be a common option on
missiles. Just like "home on radar" and "home on jammer" are now.

A grav tank that turns off it's CG/AG to dodge a missile is in trouble.
Especially if the nice people on the ground fire several a few seconds
apart.

> So, I see a three-phase battle taking place in a planetary invasion, 
> partly simultaneous, and with blurry boundaries:
> 
> (a) The space phase: Defending ships, SDBs, and DMSs against attacking
>     ships.

So far so good.

> (b) The air phase: Grav vehicles duking it out until one side runs out.

Nope. Ortillery (kinetic kill weapons and homing missiles) versus
defending grav units. 

> (c) The ground phase: Grunts face-down behind trees...er, taking and
>     holding installations, hunting DMSs, doing FO work, and all those
>     cool infantry things Doug has covered so well.

They may go down to help draw out the enemy grav units. Between heavy
weapons squads, integral artillery and ortillery support, grav vehicles
are going to be rather vulnerable. So it's still likely that troops
will go down *then* the grav cav. 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 21:54:18 PST
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt) writes:

> Taking the functionality of MGs for granted, (as well as the lack of
> decent directional neutrino detectors good enough to get a FC Lock) I'd
> add the following.
> 
> Mesons will decay along the beam path.  Ships in orbit will see a long
> thin gamma source coming up from the surface.  In other words, they'll
> see the beam.  If they see it fire a few times, they'll triangulate the
> position.

And if the position is 50 km under the surface? Almost any attack
that'll reach that deep is likely to have *severe* effects on the
planet. 

And if the DMS is actually a "subterrene" cruising thru the magma,
your triangulation is going to be of little help.

Of course, I'd imagine that *designing* such a "subterrene" would be an
interesting excercise.

And even more fun would be if the attacker manages to land an "attack
subterrene" of his own. *That* would be a battle.



Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 00:04:59 PST
Subject: Re: More Rocks & Thrusters

Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> writes:

>     Under NO
>     circumstances will a spacecraft be allowed to plot a course that
>     intersects with the atmosphere of any inhabited planet in the system.

Please consider the fact that the "100 diameter" limit is rather close
to the planet as distances in space go, and that fully predicting the
exit vector (direction *or* magntitude) is not practical. If it *was*
practical, that allows the terrorists to do all the accelerating
*before* jump. It also allows tactics that we don't see.

>     Such actions will be dealt with severely, any PC's trying to do this
>     will likely be arrested and their ship confiscated (assuming they
>     aren't simply blown away by the SDBs) if they don't escape the long
>     arm of the law. The only way any spacecraft could enter the atmosphere
>     is with a "harbour pilot" on board, an offcial from the high port that
>     will pilot for the spacecraft. The intent is to insure that no
>     uncontrolled traffic enters the atmosphere as a hazard to the
>     population of the planet.

And how hard is it to overpower the harbor pilot?

>     The second job of this force is to patrol areas (such as the ateroid
>     belt) that are easy sources of Dinosaur Killers and prevent unauthorized
>     personnel (spacecraft) from entering the asteroid belt and simply
>     grabbing one and pushing it to the planet. Asteroid prospectors would
>     require licenses, and special permits would be required to actually
>     *move* an asteroid.

Slight problem. The *best* source of such things is too big to patrol.

> THE PHYSICS OF DINOSAUR KILLERS
> 
>     Lets stop for a moment and look at the events involved in an (opposed)
>     attack on a planet with DKs. Let's further assume all ships have
>     THRUSTERS. (which is the concern of many arguments)
> 
>     Let's say that the asteroid belt (closest approach) is 4AU away from
>     the orbit of the planet, that's about 372 million miles (598 milion Km
>     for the metrically challenged) Let's also assume that the Terrorist
>     chooses a 10,000mt asteroid (small as asteroids go) and the Terrorist
>     flies a 200 ton Free Trader with a 1G drive. Using TNE rules, the Free
>     trader has a loaded mass of 1900mt, so the acceleration of the Free
>     Trader would be 1900/(10,000+1900) = 0.16G.

Now let's try this the way a *competent* terrorist would do it.

Jump into the system way the hell out in the Kuiper belt or even the
Oort cloud. Find a body the same size as the one you used. Set up to
move it.

Now, we'll be at least 100 AU out, more likely over 1000. 

So, we accelerate for a while. If we have 1000 AU to accelerate in,
things work out like this:

1.5e14 km at 1.6 m/sec = 1.37e7 seconds (159 days)
Max V is 2.19e7 m/s or about 7% of c. 

Assuming they cut loose at 50 AU, then the time to impact is: 3.42e5
seconds (or about 95 hours). At 4 g, it'll take 155 hours to match
velocity (which is necessary to even *begin* to change course). At 6g
it'll take 104 hours. So even if it's detectable at 50 AU, there isn't
*time* to intercept it. 

That brings up another detail. At 50 AU out, it takes almost 7 *hours*
for any signal from the rock (reflected light, radar pulses, whatever)
to get to the mainworld. By which time it's 3.65 AU closer. 

Also, since the Oort cloud is *not* confined to the plane of the
ecliptic, the attack can come from *any* angle.

Oh yeah, it'll take 26 days for the terrorists to brake to a stop
(after they've jumped, if they have any brains). Where did they get the
fuel? Most bodies that far out are at least partial "icy" (frozen
water, methane, ammonia, etc). Getting fuel from that is easy.

Oh yeah, when the "rock" hits, the impact energy is only 2.40e21
Joules. Or 571 Gigatons.







Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 22:07:53 PST
Subject: Re: Thrusters

Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> writes:

> I've been thinking about this since Leonard brought this up, and I'm
> sorry - I just don't buy it. THRUSTERS DON'T VIOLATE CONSERVATION OF
> MOMENTUM.
> 
> Let's think about this for a moment.
> 
> ENFORCING THE LAWS
> 
> >Another problem is that you have to measure your velocity (and thus
> >momentum and KE) *relative* to some outside object. And the figures
> >relative to an object with a different vector will be different.
> 
> Yes. So what makes you think that this measurement is any more valid
> for thrusters than for any reaction drive? Relativity rules are *always*
> applicable, you don't pick and choose. Therefor, if some momentum
> calculation isn't valid for reaction drives, then it isn't valid for
> reactionLESS drives.

Easy. If you measure the momentum and KE of the ship AND ITS EXHAUST,
then you will be conserving in *all* frames of reference. More on this
below. 

> >So any "reactionless" drive is going to have to be figuring the energy
> >consumption relative to *some* body. And that means that for all
> >practical purposes you are "pushing" (or pulling!) on that object.
> 
> A dubious assumption at best. Inertial frame of reference can change at
> any time (and does - every time you jump).

Nope. You still have the same KE and momentum after jump as you had
before. Or at least that's been the assumption. 

> Any attempt to force
> reactionless drives to conform to an impossible standard that isn't
> required of any of the reaction drives is ludicrous and makes no sense.

But reaction drives *do* conserve KE and momentum. 
 
> >The reason a reaction drive is so much more efficient is that it is
> >pushing on it's *exhaust*, and therefore you measure the KE change
> >relative to *that*.
> 
> So what happens when that reaction drive spacecraft hits a planet
> and liberates all it's "stored" KE? Where'd all the "free" KE come
> from? (Remember, you've been measuring relative to the drive exhaust,
> not the planet!) You are going to see some kind of paradox everytime
> you try and enforce this dubious conservation rule. SO DON'T TRY.

There isn't any "free" KE involved. The ship started out "at rest" with
respect to *something* (or even just assume it was moving at constant
velocity with respect to the planet). It used fuel, gaining KE and
momentum relative to the planet, while at the same time, the exhaust
*lost* an equal amount of KE and momentum (remember, these are *vector*
quantities, so "negative" justy means "in the opposite direction")

Pick any inertial frame you care to and it works out.

> WHERE'S MY TEXTBOOK ON REACTIONLESS DRIVES?
> 
> Face it, according to current laws of physics, reactionless drives are
> impossible. So therefor, if we do happen to discover a way to make a
> reactionless drive we'll probably have to invent a new branch of physics
> to describe it's behaviour. Complaining about how reactionless drives
> "couldn't possibly work" and "violate conservation" is useless because it's
> already been stipulated THEY EXIST AND WORK! So what do we do? We invent a
> series of internally consistent rules that describe the drives operation
> and go from there.

> The first logical rule is to state that, except for exhaust and fuel use,
> thrusters work exactly like reaction drives. The next is that they cost a
> little more to buy. The third is that they are costly to power up.
 
> Sound a lot like existing thrusters? You bet.

Unfortunately, to avoid *major* problems, they have to obey the
conservation laws *somehow*. You've already seen my analysis of the
dodge of having them pushing on some outside object. The energy
required goes up as the velocity goes up. And if you consider that part
of the energy goes to pushing the other onject (any object, up to and
including the entire rest of the universe), then KE and momentum work.

I made another post a few messages back just assuming that we conserved
KE via use the "work equals force times distance" formula. This is
reasonable and is "reactionless". But the energy consumption again goes
up rapidly as your velocity increases. (In fact, I think the results
actually come out the same as assuming you are pushing on something
else, much to my surprise). 

> A key way to understanding this is to think of reactionLESS drives as
> truely reactionless - they don't push on ANYTHING except themselves. Maybe
> they create "virtual particles" as reaction mass, maybe they hook into a
> subspace phenomenon much like a sail does. No matter what is decided, as
> long as it's consistent you can't argue with it because you are talking
> about FICTION - and the primary idea is to stipulate one impossible thing
> every adventure and have fun!

The problem is that you are postulating *two* "impossible things".
First, a drive that takes energy and turns it into velocity (ie
"reactionless"). Second, that it uses the same amount of energy per
delata-v at all speeds (the way a reaction drive works).

It's possible to justify either statement and have fun with it. But
both taken together are *not* consistent, and lead to problems like
being able to hit relativistic velocities cheaply. To regain
consistency, you have to keep adding more ad hoc qualifications to how
things work. And people keep finding holes in *those*.

The *simplest* solution is to keep the conservation laws, and change
the performance of thruster plates.

Just for kicks and grins, let's figure the energy to go 1.3e9 meters
(roughly the 100 diameter limit for earth). Obviously, the energy
required varies with the acceleration. Both you and I both agree on
*that* much. Energy is energy per kg of ship.

        trip    peak	total	peak
	time	speed	energy	power	
accel	(sec)	(m/s)	(Mj/kg)	(MW/kg)	
- -------	-------	-------	-------	-------
1 m/s^2	5.099e4	5.099e4	1.300e3 5.099e-2
1 g	1.629e4	1.596e5	1.274e4	1.564
2 g	1.152e4	2.257e5	2.548e4	4.425
3 g	9.404e3	2.765e5	3.822e4	8.128
4 g	8.144e3	3.192e5	5.096e4	1.251e1
5 g	7.284e3	3.569e5	6.370e4	1.749e1
6 g	6.650e3	3.910e5	7.644e4	2.299e1

Somehow, I doubt that the above would go over well.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 21:43:34 PST
Subject: Re: Psycopathic crowbars?

Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> writes:

> >         What... so it's ok to roast someone with a plasma rifle, fry a ship
> > with a meson gun, shoot people with any number of slug weapons, etc, etc
> > ,etc, but a simple kinetic-kill smart munition is somehow the weapon only o
> > madmen?
> 
>    Yep, for the same reason that nukes are verboten and are only used by
> madmen. Slug and energy weapons are precision instruments, they attack one
> target at a time. KKW are weapons of mass destructon, when they are used
> indiscriminately.

Excuse me. "Slug weapons" *are* KKW!

Weapons of mass destruction are defined as weapons which kill
indiscriminately over wide areas.

Thus, smart crowbars and flying telephone poles are *not* weapons of
mass destruction. The "rock" used to take out that comm cemter in a
previous post *was*, unless the center was a couple of clicks across,
or it was buried so deeply that such a weapon was required to reach it.

And even if it *was* deeply buried, there'd be *some* argument about
the morality of the attack if the target was buried under a population
center. On the other hand, opinion currently seems to be in favor of
blaming the *owner* of a military target for placing it near civilians.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 17:47:01 PST
Subject: Re: [T96#89] Zeta Field/Bergenholm

jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN) writes:

> T::>ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch) wrote:
> 
> T::>It is very important to note that the "zeta field" generator
>  ::>is properly called a "Bergenholm" (or just a "berg" for short).
> 
>  ROFL!  Just one minor nit - the berg neutralized _inertia_, not
>  mass.  To me, neutralization of mass means mixing it with an
>  appropriate quantity of anti-mass - either our kind, or negamatter.

Inertia *is* mass. The only real "exception" to this is that it is
still not 100% certain that "inertial mass" and "gravitational mass"
are the same thing. Tests show that if they differ, we can'ty measure
the difference yet.

Gravitational mass is the mass in F=GMm/r^2, and the few equations
derived from it. Inertial mass is the mass in F=ma, and just about
every other formula.

Traveller's contra-gravity (and possibly antigravity) require inertial
mass to be different from gravitational mass for them to work according
to the descriptions. CG and AG lower or neutralize gravitational mass,
but have no effect on the inertial mass. 

The "zeta field" and E.E. Smith's Bergenholm neutralize *inertial*
mass, but not gravitational mass. A good example is the graduation
sequence in "Galactic Patrol". They march into a "drop shaft" and go
"free" (inertialess). They drop to the bottom of the shaft *fast* then
stop instantly upon reaching the bottom.

The drop is due to gravvity acting upon their mass, with *only* the
drag from the air to slow them.

>  Hmmm...  Maybe the berg should be an alternatech in FFS2?

I'd like it. Heck, I'd like it even better if IG could get permission
for as many different "technologies" as possible. 

On fun one is F.M. Busby's "Habegger gate". It allows teleportation
over any distance. You put something in the "mouth" unit, and it comes
out the "tush" victim. Obviously you have to transport the "tush" to
whereever you want to exit, and you'd probably want to take along a
"mouth" as well so you can get back. There's a catch though. While
anyone who enters the mouth will think no time elapsed before they came
out the tush, in reality, two years elapses. The duration *does* obey
relativity. It's 2 years on earth. On a ship accelerating at close to
c, it could be only a week or two.

I like them, because they allow star travel (ships use the gates to
refuel and to exchange crew), but they make things nicely complex.
They're *lousy* for warfare. Would you send an attack force thru when
it takes 4 years to find out what happened to them?

Imagine introducing them to the Imperium. :-)

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #111
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 18 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 112

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. ANNOUNCING: rec.orbital.bombard
         2. Re: Bleedin' Rocks
         3. Re: Psycopathic crowbars?
         4. Re: Skill Specialization
         5. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
         6. Aliens
         7. Last-Minute QSDS Revisions
         8. Re: Orbital bombardment
         9. Re: Law Levels
        10. Re: Problems
        11. Re: Problems
        12. Re: Meson beams
        13. Re: Last-Minute QSDS Revisions
        14. Re: Meson beams
        15. Re: Varia... and an offer.
        16. law level & stuff
        17. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #91
        18. Re: Varia... and an offer.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 18 Jun 96 08:18:10 EDT
Subject: ANNOUNCING: rec.orbital.bombard

Wouldn't that be nice if these people would take this thread ELSEWHERE? clever
to start, but pounded so thin as to be transparent, gang; let's let it die!

sheesh...some people! ;-)

<shields up>

- -j

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 20:08:06 PST
Subject: Re: Bleedin' Rocks

Michael Bailey <mickb@thehub.com.au> writes:

> If you are going to accelerate a rock/ship/nerf ball/whatever to
> relativistic velocities and use it to trash the local real estate, you need
> a lengthy period of _sustained_ acceleration.

Nope. To reach .1c takes 850 hours of acceleration at 1 g. But I can do
it at 1 hour a *year*. Of course, that'd take 850 years. At an hour a
week, it'd take 16.4 years. At an hour a day it'd take 2.33 years. At
6 days a week, it'd take 41 days.

> Why not assume that the thruster plates are unable to run continuously for
> this required lengh of time - they overheat or something (mumble, mumble).
> Long enough for in-system maneuvering, but after too long you're going to
> trash your plates.

It just makes it take longer.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 20:55:52 PST
Subject: Re: Psycopathic crowbars?

Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net> writes:

> Cristopher Sean Hilton wrote:
> 
> >It's pointless to try to bend Traveller physics around the problem when 
> >it would be much easier to deal with it as one would in the real 
> >universe where it is a real problem. The mindset of the traveller 
> >society would be that only a psycopath would drop a rock on a 
> >planet. Anyone caught doing that would be treated like a psycopath.
> >
> >BTW: This is the logical extension of the "smart crowbar" idea that 
> >bouncing around here too.
> 
>         What... so it's ok to roast someone with a plasma rifle, fry a ship
> with a meson gun, shoot people with any number of slug weapons, etc, etc
> ,etc, but a simple kinetic-kill smart munition is somehow the weapon only of
> madmen?

Not the simple munition. But anyone using a "weapon of mass
destruction" be it a nuke, a *big* rock, a small relativistic rock,
major use of deadly chemical agents or biological agents is going to be
about as popular as Pol Pot or Adolph Hitler.



Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 20:40:02 PST
Subject: Re: Skill Specialization

Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de> writes:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> >> Probably the main reason for the success of fantasy roleplaying games set 
> >> pseudo Middle Ages against science fiction system is their simplicity.
> >
> >Noty all are (or were) simple. And the ones that tried to be realistic
> >didn't do well. <sigh>. Still games like Chivalry & Sorcery gave us
> >nice reference works for when we *did* want to be realistic.
> 
> But was C&S a success? I doubt. Harnmaster has a very good world
> description, but awful complex rules and also failed to become really
> successful. On Germany the most successful RPG ("Das Schwarze Auge") has
> also the easiest rules (about the complexity of D&D).

You misread my statement. I was using C&S as an example of a system
that *failed*. It had nice, realistic rules. And far too much
complexity. But some of us bought it so we could deal with the
"details" if they ever became important. (like telling players that
they can only get so many men to work on fortifications, and only at
some times of year unless they want to starve!)


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 20:46:53 PST
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> writes:

> >   Ahhh, but on planets we have the luxury of geothermal power sources...
> 
>         Then no need for even a "handwaving" neutrino sensor ... should show
> up reasonable well to a sensitive thermal scan.

Not really. All you know is that it's a hot spot. If you guess that
it's a deep meson site, and it's actually a normal hotspot (Yellowstone
is a good, if large, example) hitting it with something powerful enough
to knock out a DMS will cause a *major* geological event. Things like
flooding everything within hundreds of miles with lava pouring from the
rift you created. And major earthquakes as well. 

Study some geology. Much of the Pacific Northwest has layers of basalt
*hundreds* of meters thick from a set of rifts that formed in Idaho or
Montana. The flows extend almost to the Pacific coast, and into places
like Wyoming in the east.

Creating something like that is going to get a commander into a *world*
of trouble.

Also, as another message pointed out, hot spots in the deep ocean are
*very* hard to detect. 

>         And your DMS will probably show up as a masscon anyway ... something
> we had the technology to detect on early lunar flybys. We've got the Earth's
> gravitational field fairly well mapped as well -- absolutely critical when
> you're targetting ICBMs.

There are natural mascons. It won't be very hard to make sure that the
average density of the installation matches that of the surrounding
rocks, which means that you *can't* detect it as a mascon (or as the
opposite). 

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:26:47 +0200
Subject: Aliens

On 13th Jun, Jeff Miller wrote:

> Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment

> with all the talk of dropships just now, y'all oughta be aware of the Aliens:
> Colonial Marine Technical Manual from Harper. A net-pal from another list
> wrote the book, and it's great fun for the supposed 'inside' look at the 
> workings of the weaponry, unit makeup/doctrines and, of course, the UD-4J 
> Cheyenne dropship.....
> It also goes into enough detail about the various squad-portable weapons and
> support vehicles I'm tempted to run them through FF&S to see how they fare!

Jeff, I did just that with the Pulse Rifle (also using Phoenix Command's 
Aliens RPG as reference) a few months back.  It came out non-optimal as far 
as the FF&S / TNE rules were concerned, but it wasn't a bad facsimile.  I 
did have to use some other people's (sorry, forgot the names off hand) 
house rules for things like alternate materials and caseless ammo to get 
the weight down to a reasonable level, tho'.

I'd be interested to see anything you did design.

Cheers,
Liam

- -- 
Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 09:11:59 -0400
Subject: Last-Minute QSDS Revisions

I'm working on incorporating some last-minute revisions into QSDS.  These
will affect anyone who has already done a design; I'll let you all know
when the updated system is available.

The revisions are:
0) Cosmetic: the tables are being re-organized so that the columns appear
   in a consistent order.  This should make it easier and reduce errors.
1) The cost of Thrust Plates have been reduced; they now cost 25% of the
   amount listed in QSDS 1.0 (this is a change to the FF&S system that
   QSDS was based on).
2) Crew requirements may be adjusted (I don't have final information on
   this yet).

I'll post as soon as QSDS 1.1 is available for download.

Guy Garnett, aka
wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 20:17:04 PST
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment

Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de> writes:

> When invading a world, I can't believe that a sane soldier would agree in
> using a one-way-ticket in a flying casket. An armored grav transport may be
> a larget target but it's psychologically better and offers the opportunity
> to retreat back to orbit.

By that reasoning, paratroopers would never parachute into enemy
territory. Yet that is the very *purpose* of paratroops. To go into
enemy territory in advance and destroy targets or hold objective until
the main forces can get there.

> The defending army can't destroyed easily if their troops and command
> centers are highly mobil. The invader also cannot destroy all supply-camps
> or construction plants because he needs to support, too. It's the defender,
> who has the larger resources and so has the better chances.

The problem here is that given Traveller technology, being mobile is
going to make you a bigger target! 

Im my forces have orbital superiority, then we can broadcast a warning
that *any* vehicles moving between population centers will be destroyed
without warning. And we've got the weapons to enforce it. 

That kills your "mobility". You either have to move slowly, or you have
to be *well* stealthed. 

Note that such measures also encourage surrender. Once an area has
surrendered, you can allow *limited* movement. So until a city
surrenders, it doesn't get any supplies... including *food*.

> Derek Stanly wrote: 
> >True.  Wasn't thinking in that direction.  I was actually pointing out that
> >with modern parachuting equipment it's possible to get everyone as close
> >together or as far appart as you want.  And with troopers in powered battle
> >dress with tac-com and such I really don't think the guy's on the ground,
> >unless they know exactly where you're landing are going to be able to put up
> >much of a fight.  One man in battle dress can easily wade through a half
> >dozen grunts providing none of them have panzerfausts.  Ain't battle dress
> >wonderful?
> 
> But woudn't modern targetting equipment allow to automatically target each
> intruder and burn him away? Something like an anti-parachuter gun? If they
> use ordinary parachutes, it's enough to destroy their robes. Otherwise, it
> might be possible to distorb their anti-grav units and let them drop like
> stone to ground.

The problem is telling *which* targets are jump troops, and which are
decoys and "chaff". The whole idea of jump troops is that for every
trooper there are *dozens* of equally good targets. Plus, I get the
impression that the orbital support elements would be engaging in fire
suppression.

So if you shoot at something that *might* be a trooper, you are
inviting counter-fire from *much* bigger guns. 

> Finally, the guy's on ground will probably have to same
> battle dresses and the same weapons.

Probably. But even if they do, do they have superior numbers IN THE
DROP ZONE? If not, the jump troops have surprise *and* numbers on their
side. And you try to pick targets where the enemy *isn't* concentrated.
Frontal assualts are not what you use this sort of unit for.

> >1. Gain space superiority.
> >2. Suppress ground defenses using ortillery.
> >3. Land jump troops to clear a landing zone.
> >4. Land grav combat vehicles to defend and expand perimeter.
> >5. Land support units (repair, medical, commo, and so forth) to
> >   enable offensive actions out of perimeter.
> 
> Let's assume 1. isn't possible. You can break space defense and get your
> transports to the landing zone but reinforcement from other worlds might
> normally prevent space superiority. However, they can't use ortillery either.
> 
> So 2. isn't an option for both sides.

If you don't have orbital superiority, then you don't launch an assualt
unless you are willing to sacrifice a *lot* of ships and men.
 
> My next question is, why not exchange 3. and 4. For me, it seems more
> natural to more persevering heavy grav tanks than vulnerable infantry. To
> capture ground installations, you'll need foot troops, of course, but to
> establish a bridgehead you would need heavier combat equipment.

Why do troops always land first in modern assualts? Because they are
*smaller* targets. Once you've got men and some heavy weapons in place,
you have a chance to get the heavier equipment landed.

Also, you attack *several* places on the ground, land troops on some of
them, and only follow up with armor and the like on a few. The enemy
has to *guess* where your *real* beachead is, and which are just
feints.

> On the topic, that mass destorying weapons have bad PR, Norm Fenlason, said
> 
> >>have a way of getting out and once they do it becomes more and more
> >>difficult for the military to do it's job effectively.
> >
> >Assuming a government responsive to its population.
> 
> Well, if not, they have perhaps fight a second war at home, supressing their
> own people, too. It might work a couple of years, but rebellion would
> probably occur.

Only assuming that the people had enough freedom to start with. After
all, the Soviet Union did *not* have a rebellion over the various
attempts at rebellion in eastern Europe, nor over the atrocities in
Afghanistan.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 18 Jun 1996 09:38:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Law Levels

>I've always wanted to know why Traveller Law Level was based on the type 
>of weapons the government let you carry.  Perhaps like tech level,
>law level shouldn't be considered so 'cut and dry'.  I can easily
>imagine a world with a law level of 4 that prohibits all weapons.
>Also I can see a world with a law level of 9 that requires all citizens
>to openly carry laser weapons.

In World Builders Handbook, published by Digest Group Publications, there was
many related  law levels governing different areas of life.  This is the
system I always use.

Now, rather than just a single numerical value (or several numerical values)
describing severity, I'd be interested in an optional system to generate
details about how the law works.  Eg., is it British common law, French Code
Napoleon, Roman law, ...  Possibly a nice lawyer (we've got one here) could
write a 2-3 page description of various legal codes?  (Hint, hint.)

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 06:59:02 -0700
Subject: Re: Problems

At 07:17 PM 6/17/96 -0400, you wrote:

>First question: do you have the same amount of memory (i.e. is everything 
>else the same)  In windows, especially, the amount ofmemory you have is 
>almost *more* important than processor speed...

I've gone from 8 to 16 meg and I've got lots of the original 640 left to run
windows in.

>second question: what exactly is the error you're getting...I might be 
>able to help:)

I can't remember.  I'll right it down next time.  It just pisses me off so
much when it happens that I never right it down.  Next time it happens I'll
send you a copy of the error code.  I did a bunch of work on the computer
last night and re-installed some programs.

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:01:31 -0700
Subject: Re: Problems

At 09:45 PM 6/17/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Win 3.x should run fine on your Pentium.  There are a BUNCH of other things
>that might make it ill, though.  Check w/somebody who's hardware/Windows
>literate FTF to see whether your BIOS, caching, memory use, etc., are all
>happy.  It may well be something silly/simple but likely isn't at all
>obvious.  Doing it by email/mailing list may only make you miserabler... - Bill

I'm hoping that all the work I did last night will fix the damn thing.
Thanks for the info though.  I spend a couple of hours re-installing some
problem programs in the hopes that it'll fix the problem.  

Perhaps I should increase the amount of virtual memory on the hard drive...

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:10:12 -0700
Subject: Re: Meson beams

At 10:06 PM 6/17/96 -0600, you wrote:
> 
>>    My tack on this is that MGs have a very "tight" targetting solution,
>>    but _do_ have some spillover. This could be used to triangulate a DMS,
>>    but only over an extended period of time. (It'd be hard to get an *exact*
>>    bearing on a random-probability-smeared meson trail)
>
>Well, I didn't say it would be easy to detect it, just that it could be.
>I don't see it as being all that hard, though.  When you consider that
>DMSs are gonna be the very biggest MGs, using the most energy, it gets
>even easier.

This is true but when they're gutting your ships left right and center who
wants to hang around long enough to figure out where they are?

DS


------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:21:32 +0200
Subject: Re: Last-Minute QSDS Revisions

     Derek,
     
     Any chance of there being a few more entries on the hull table.  
     Specifically. more configurations per hull size would be useful, 
     rather than more hull sizes.
     
     Cheers,
     Liam
     
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Last-Minute QSDS Revisions
Author:  Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> at internet
Date:    18/06/96 14:11

     
I'm working on incorporating some last-minute revisions into QSDS.  These 
will affect anyone who has already done a design; I'll let you all know 
when the updated system is available.
     
                                 [snip]

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:22:12 -0700
Subject: Re: Meson beams

At 10:38 PM 6/17/96 -0700, you wrote:

>I have a somewhat tangential question:  From where do the DMS's get their
>targeting solutions?  Are there meson sensors that allow them to target
>from within the planet?  If they are that deep, in all likelyhood,
>neutrino emissions will be clouded---which means they would probably
>prefer to use surface based sensors for a more accurate solution---take
>those out, one take out some of their accuracy.  Also, on the subject of
>combating DMS's: they have to be able to get the crews, etc. IN somehow
>(how many troops do you think will volunteer to get sealed into something
>analogous to the Biosphere II just to operate a DMS? Not many)---which
>means any hostiles also have a potential method in (I didn't say it would
>be an easy one).
>
I beleive if you read "PATH OF TEARS" there is data on the planet Kiepes.
Kiepes has a DMS and I think they have a number of passive and active sensor
sites scattered about the planets surface.  A "Sensor Web" if you will.
>From this web the data is transmitted back to the DMS a targeting solution
is plotted and bada bing bada bang bada boom starships start exploding like
little cherry blossom's in space.  

It's so lovely from the planet. 8)

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:21:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Varia... and an offer.

At 03:01 PM 6/18/96 +0800, you wrote:
>
>        Derek Stanley wrote:
>>
>>I have to as you people.  I've just finished upgrading from a 486x33 to a
>>Pentium 100 and I'm having killer problems keeping windows up and running.
>>Is windows 3.1 incapable of handling the speed of the computer or is there
>>something really obvious that I'm missing out on.  Everytime I get going on
>>Netscape it crashes 3-6 times.  I get all kinds of Unknown TTF errors and
>>the list goes on.  The stupid thing is dos works just fine.
>
>        Do what I did: buy a Mac :).  Seriously, though, my old man just
>went through some Netscape-related problems recently.  D'you want me to ask
>him ?

You know I thought of that but Mac are at least twice the price of an IBM
Clone up here.  Sure ask him what he did to fix it.  I'm open to suggestions
as long as they don't require Rattlesnake oil or self flaggulation. 8)

DS


------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:27:10 -0500
Subject: law level & stuff

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:
>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 16:21:54 -0700
>>Just as a point of interest.  Our constitution does not 'grant' us
>>the right to keep and bear arms. It only protects that right (and others)
>>which we would have even in the absence of the constitution. 
>This is way the hell off topic but I believe, and I will get flamed on this
>one I'm sure, 
  Not flamed, but corrected.

>the line grants you "the right to bear arms in an organized
>militia." or something to that effect.  
  That is not what it says.  The ammendment reads:  'A well-regulated
Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the
people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

It defines a right of the people, not the states.  Or as the US Supreme
Court put it: 
"... 'the people' seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts
of the Constitution. The Preamble declares that the Constitution is
ordained, and established by 'the people of the U.S.' The Second Amendment
protects the right of the people to keep and bear Arms...." - Supreme Court
of the U.S., U.S. v. Uerdugo-Uriquidez (1990). 

Would the phrase, "A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the
security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books,
shall not be infringed." mean that only registered voters can own books?

>One of my friends was born in Arkansas, and he says that's how the line goes.  
  Oh that explains it. :-)

ObTraveller:  One of my players supports victim disarment laws, but gets
pissed when I tell him that his character can't carry his gauss pistol on
a TL 7 world.  Even though the law level permits personal ownership of
handguns.

Mark Urbin eclipse@ultranet.com  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy 
spot on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
Opinions are MINE!  All Mine!  Bwwwaaaahhhh! 


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:28:02 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #91

At 06:30 PM 6/17/96 PST, you wrote:

>Spaceships have an advantage over seagoing vessels. They don't sink. If
>you knock out the drives, the ship just continues on its current
>vector, as modified by gravity. If the ship is in orbit (or moving slow
>enough) then it'll *stay* in orbit.

Ya.  Unfortunately when someone punches a hole in the side of a navy ship
they may or may not float.  When someone punches a hole in the side of a
starship you may or may not get blown out into the big black.  

Steve Gallaci did a great picture of a ship after explosive decompression in
an Albedo module "The Drift?" just great.  Every pannel in the ship that
might have had air behind it was bent, ripped up all the displays and
controlls had exploded outwards, what a mess.

DS


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:34:14 -0800
Subject: Re: Varia... and an offer.

On 18 Jun 96 at 15:01, Roderick Darroch Elliott spewed:

>         Getting back on topic, I've been wondering whether there are any
> rules or background in Traveller regarding business associations.  I've been
> thinking about throwing together a blurb on (very) basic corporate and
> partnership entities, and private international (interplanetary?) law,
> modified to fit Traveller.  I think it might provide some interesting
> background/plot motors for the game.  If anyone's interested, I can put a
> few hours in on it this weekend...
> 

I'm not aware of any, but that may not be saying all that much.  I'd 
love to see what ideas you might have or contribute if you want some 
thoughts...

It'd be fun to read about something besides orbital bombardments for 
once.  I'm beginning to think I subscribed to the Meteor Impact 
Effects list... ;-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #112
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 18 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 113

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Last-Minute QSDS Revisions
         2. Re: QSDS Ships (x2)
         3. Re: law level & stuff
         4. Re: Computer Troubles and Gun Laws
         5. What State is MMT in?
         6. Done To Death: Rock Dropping.
         7. What is a Feudal Technocracy?
         8. Meson beams: canon from Supplement #9
         9. Re: Meson beams
        10. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
        11. Re: What State is MMT in?
        12. Re: Re: Skill Specialization - can we have both worlds? - corrected
        13. Syleans "must" be a minor human race
        14. decompression & combat
        15. Re: Syleans "must" be a minor human race
        16. Re: explosive decompression...not
        17. Re: decompression & combat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:42:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Last-Minute QSDS Revisions

At 04:21 PM 6/18/96 +0200, you wrote:
>     Derek,
>     
>     Any chance of there being a few more entries on the hull table.  
>     Specifically. more configurations per hull size would be useful, 
>     rather than more hull sizes.
>     
This is awful for twenty seven years I've never met a Derek who's name is
spelt the same as mine.  8)

Now there are two of us on the same mailing list.  There are time's when I'm
never sure who's talking to whom.  8)  STOP IT STOP IT!!!  MAKE THE LITTLE
ELECTRONIC VOICES STOP TALKING!!!!  8)

It's good to find another person who knows how to spell Derek though.

DS


------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:46:20 -0400
Subject: Re: QSDS Ships (x2)

At 10:47 AM 6/16/96 -0700, Steve Charlton wrote:
>I have created a a Free Trader and a Far Trader using QSDS.  The details are 
>below, with the CT information shown in parentheses where appropriate.

>Free Trader
>Tons:  200		Volume: 190.6		Cost: 51.029 (37.08)
>Crew:  7 (4)		Passengers (H/M): 6 (6)	Passengers (L): 10 (20)
>Cargo: 73.8		Controls: Bridge	Tech Level: 11

>Crew Detail: 4 Engineers, 1 Astrogator, 1 Command/Pilot, 1 Medic/Steward.
>             (1 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Medic, 1 Steward)
>

Monthly Expenses:
   Free Trader QSDS                         Free Trader Book 2
       Mortgage:      246KCr                    Mortgage:       154Kcr
       Salaries:       30KCr                    Salaries:        18Kcr
       Life Support:   25KCr                    Life Support:    20Kcr
                      301Kcr / month                            192Kcr / month
       
Monthly Income:
   Free Trader
       Passangers: 140Kcr (max)                                 160Kcr
       Cargo:      147.6Kcr (max) (spec. trading not included)  164Kcr
                   287.6Kcr / month income.                     324Kcr / month

The free trader as designed cannot pay for itself.  The higher cost along
with the crew requirements (which push up the cost of the life support) make
it impossible to survive without a subsidy or speculative trading.  This
also assumes full passanger and cargo loads per trip and no downtime.  The
bank would never make this mortgage.

Also note the Book 2 Free Trader had 10 state rooms, which ment 8 high
passages available instead of only 6 passages in the 10 state rooms of the
QSDS design which unbalances it even more.

I can appreciate the want for designs to be consistant from the beginers
sequences to the advanced sequences, but they also have to be compatiable
with the basic game.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:06:29 -0700
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

At 11:27 AM 6/18/96 -0500, you wrote:

>>the line grants you "the right to bear arms in an organized
>>militia." or something to that effect.  
>  That is not what it says.  The ammendment reads:  'A well-regulated
>Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the
>people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

I knew it was something like that.  But technically speaking doesn't that
mean you have to belong to a militia to have the right to bear arms or arm
bears.  8)

>It defines a right of the people, not the states.  Or as the US Supreme
>Court put it: 
>"... 'the people' seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts
>of the Constitution. The Preamble declares that the Constitution is
>ordained, and established by 'the people of the U.S.' The Second Amendment
>protects the right of the people to keep and bear Arms...." - Supreme Court
>of the U.S., U.S. v. Uerdugo-Uriquidez (1990). 
>
>Would the phrase, "A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the
>security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books,
>shall not be infringed." mean that only registered voters can own books?

If that was true shouldn't registered voters be the only ones allowed to
keep guns?  It's one of those vague and nebulous questions that you or I
can't interperate.  Like the Catholic Church, anyone can own a bible, but
only the pope can tell you what it means.  No offence intended to any
Catholic's or American's out there.

>>One of my friends was born in Arkansas, and he says that's how the line
goes.  
>  Oh that explains it. :-)

I always wondered if its pronounced R-kin-saw, shouldn't the state Kansas be
pronounced Kin-saw or should it read R-Cans-as?  8)

>ObTraveller:  One of my players supports victim disarment laws, but gets
>pissed when I tell him that his character can't carry his gauss pistol on
>a TL 7 world.  Even though the law level permits personal ownership of
>handguns.

This is the truth isn't it.  Everyone wants to get rid of guns untill the
man knocks on the door and says "I'm here to get your gun."  Then all of a
sudden its a civil defence issue.

COP:  I notice you're wearing a ballistic jacket and carrying a pistol.

BWANA:  Ya I like to be able to protect myself.

COP:  Protect yourself, from what?  Are you saying I'm not doing my job?

BWANA:  No it's not that its just I run into a lot of trouble and you never
know.

COP:  So you create a lot of trouble?

BWANA:  That's not what I said...

COP:  And you don't think I'm doing my job.

BWANA:  Not at all officer...

COP:  Perhaps you'd like to step over to that wall over there mister trouble
maker.

BWANA:  Now wait just a minute.

You've all seen this one take place haven't you?

DS


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:29:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Computer Troubles and Gun Laws

Hi all.  Well, not to be snooty or anything, but could you guys take 
these two threads to personal email, please?  It's not that they're 
offensive or anything, just unrelated to the list.  

Thanks,
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:31:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: What State is MMT in?

Hi all.  Recently Guy Garnett said something about the QSDS being 
typeset.  Does this mean that MMT is in the final stages?  Will any input 
we give now have an impact on the product put out in August, or is it too 
late?

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:33:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Done To Death: Rock Dropping.

Hi all.  Could someone please come up with a "Done to Death" summary of 
the latest rock-dropping debate so we can put it in the FAQ and be done 
with it? 

Thanks,
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:34:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: What is a Feudal Technocracy?

Just kidding!  :-)  Everyone knows it's based off a medieval Japanese 
set-up where they had big tests to determine who would get to fill 
government positions, right? :-)

Charles.

------------------------------

From: Tony Zbaraschuk <tonyz@eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:34:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Meson beams: canon from Supplement #9

In regard to meson beams, Supplement #9 says that the fighter launch tudes on a
Tigress-class BB are off to the side of the ship, so that the fighters won't
be flying into the meson beam when launced or landed.

Guess that meson beams don't decay straight into the target...


Tony Z

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:58:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Meson beams

On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, 'Jomama' Charles Pratt wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> 
> > Well, I didn't say it would be easy to detect it, just that it could be.
> > I don't see it as being all that hard, though.  When you consider that
> > DMSs are gonna be the very biggest MGs, using the most energy, it gets
> > even easier.
> 
> I have a somewhat tangential question:  From where do the DMS's get their
> targeting solutions?  Are there meson sensors that allow them to target
> from within the planet?  If they are that deep, in all likelyhood,

   This was covered briefly, early on in the discussion.

   There are several choices:

   1) Use neutrino sensors, less accurate but they don't have to exposed
      to be usable.

   2) Use redundant passive EMS arrays on the surface of the planet. These
      are vulnerable, but don't give themselves away by emmissions. 

   3) Use *active* EMS arrays. They give the most accurate targetting
      solution, but gives themselves away via their emissions. Least 
      optimal, as any kind of fire control will be blown away from orbit
      as soon as it's detected.

    In any case, should the sensors somehow get discovered, they will be
destroyed in short order by appropriate means. If all the redundant fire
control sensors for a given DMS is destroyed, that DMS is useless.
 
> those out, one take out some of their accuracy.  Also, on the subject of
> combating DMS's: they have to be able to get the crews, etc. IN somehow
> (how many troops do you think will volunteer to get sealed into something
> analogous to the Biosphere II just to operate a DMS? Not many)---which
> means any hostiles also have a potential method in (I didn't say it would
> be an easy one).

  I thought that was a "given" <g>

  It was implied when we discussed using drop troops to search/destroy
DMSes.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:08:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> And if the DMS is actually a "subterrene" cruising thru the magma,
> your triangulation is going to be of little help.
> 
> Of course, I'd imagine that *designing* such a "subterrene" would be an
> interesting excercise.
> 
> And even more fun would be if the attacker manages to land an "attack
> subterrene" of his own. *That* would be a battle.

   Wow! This is getting *wierd*. I tell you, this thread sure has been
making me think. Don't you love email? <g>

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:18:25 -0800
Subject: Re: What State is MMT in?

On 18 Jun 96 at 12:31, Charles Collin spewed:

> Hi all.  Recently Guy Garnett said something about the QSDS being 
> typeset.  Does this mean that MMT is in the final stages?  Will any input 
> we give now have an impact on the product put out in August, or is it too 
> late?

Marc sent a note yesterday on symbols, so I don't its too late yet, 
but at the same time, since graphics are filler material in some 
instances, it sounds like it might be close.

I wonder how close it is to going to the printers...  Can't be more 
than 2-3 weeks away at most...

Stu


 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 18 Jun 1996 14:09:51 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Skill Specialization - can we have both worlds? - corrected

>From the depths of editing and type-setting, 'we are using cascade skills'.

>your friendly interpreter,
>Matt Machtan
>Imperium Games


Good, I like cascade skills.

I was just proposing making them _officially_ 'optional' for groups that
wanted a faster game.  Most of the new gamers I encounter are obsessed with
the 'official' rules.  (This is why Citadel can charge $15 for a single
miniature - these kids must have the 'official' miniature or their friends
won't play with them.)  I was like that myself at their age.  In fact, it was
a letter from Marc Millar telling me to ignore the rules (!) when I wanted to
that started my campaign going.  (I could show the letter to the
rules-lawyers and say "See, the Traveller creator said I could ignore his
rules to make a better game.")  

Just for your information (because the rules are probably already finished),
my group tends to ignore a lot of the military cascades, but we add ones for
the sciences.  I guess this is because to a physicist having a single
"Physics" skill is like having a single "Firearms" skill to a soldier.  There
are specializations in both fields, with crossovers and areas of common
knowledge between the specialization.

I guess the question is how are you using cascades?  Will it be a
concentration, with the other options being at half (or some other fraction),
or will it be a selection with no default in the other options?

------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:28:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Syleans "must" be a minor human race

I hate blind obedience to "canon" as much as the next fellow, despite having 
great fun toying with its implications and ways around it.  I'm only getting
into this because I see some interesting adventure hooks.

I've asked here before about what information we have on Sylea, which would
seem (from the existence of a separate Sylean language) to be the home of
a minor-race branch of humaniti, admixed with Vilani and Solomani blood
(and noble/governing classes) from the First and Second Imperia.  And now
I've found additional "evidence" to support this view.

CT Supplement 5, "Lightning Class Cruisers", gives an exhaustive list of the
names of all vessels in the class.  These include (p. 6): 6326 Azhanti High 
Lightning, 6327 Sylean High Lightning, 6328 Vilani High Lightning, 6350
Fiorin High Lightning, 6351 Geonee High Lightning, 6357 Acheron High
Lightning, 6365 Suerrat High Lightning, 6366 Ilurian High Lightning, 6372
Luriani High Lightning.

We know, from abundant other material, that the Vilani are a major human
race, and that the Suerrat (of Ilelish sector) and the Geonee (of Massilia)
are notable minor branches of humaniti.  It would seem reasonable, then,
that the Azhanti, Syleans, Fiorin, Acherons, Ilurians, and Luriani are
also minor human races from the more coreward regions of Imperial territory,
among the many such contacted by the Vilani during their early expansion.

I already have images of the Acherons as a largely subterranean, well-nigh-
troglodytic variant of the human frame.  We "know" the Suerrat are still
semi-arboreal, and the Geonee short and stocky nomadic heavy-worlders.
What of the Azhanti, Fiorin, Ilurians, Luriani... and Syleans?

I see a great potential for political and social intrigue in the Milieu
Zero setting if the Syleans are acknowledged and detailed.  The first two
Imperia were dominated by a single human sub-species... might some on 
Sylea consider this their "rightful turn," rather than supporting Cleon
Zhunastu (the ethnic Solomani noble and industrialist) and his dream of
a peaceful multi-ethnic state for co-equal sentients, human and alien?

How are ethnic Syleans treated on their own homeworld?  The Ziru Sirkaa
ruthlessly supressed "clients" who didn't fit into the Vilani mold.  The
Rule of Man liberated many, but hardly lasted long enough to exert a
significant social influence.  Are they lower-class citizens on their own
homeworld, still ruled by centuries-old lines of old colonial and military
administrators?  Has there been extensive inter-breeding, to "smooth out"
some of the distinctive features of Sylean physiognomy (and might some
cultural preservationists resent that too)?  What distinctive features
of Sylean culture have helped to preserve this interstellar polity, the
Sylean Federation (and its now-revealed logo, the Sylean Lattice), to
grow into the Third Imperium?

There's perilous little "canon" on which to base all this discussion.
That could, of course, just add to the fun.  I'd be interested to hear
what kind of light Marc Miller and Timothy Brown plan to shed on the
many minor races (both human and alien) that undoubtedly await re-contact
as Sylea expands.  Variant branches of humaniti are one of Traveller's
most exciting ideas, but one, I think, too little explored in previously
published products.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:16:24 -0500
Subject: decompression & combat

Derek writes:
>Ya.  Unfortunately when someone punches a hole in the side of a navy ship
>they may or may not float.  When someone punches a hole in the side of a
>starship you may or may not get blown out into the big black.  
>Steve Gallaci did a great picture of a ship after explosive decompression in
>an Albedo module "The Drift?" just great.  Every pannel in the ship that
>might have had air behind it was bent, ripped up all the displays and
>controlls had exploded outwards, what a mess.

  Thus the habit of suiting up and depressuring as much of the ship as 
possible when going into combat.
  It's a pest.  It's one less problem to deal with when you get hulled
though.
  Milspec workstations probably even have hook ups so suited crewmembers
wouldn't have to change PLSS units on a regular basis.

Mark Urbin eclipse@ultranet.com  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy 
spot on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
Opinions are MINE!  All Mine!  Bwwwaaaahhhh! 


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:24:17 -0800
Subject: Re: Syleans "must" be a minor human race

On 18 Jun 96 at 13:28, Chepe spewed:

> I hate blind obedience to "canon" as much as the next fellow, despite having 
> great fun toying with its implications and ways around it.  I'm only getting
> into this because I see some interesting adventure hooks.

Chepe,

Great ideas and questions.  I think it important that the Syleans be 
detailed, as well as their homeworld.  The impact of Sylean society 
on the early development of the Imperium can't be underestimated.  

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:53:15 MST7
Subject: Re: explosive decompression...not

Derek says...
>
> Steve Gallaci did a great picture of a ship after explosive decompression in
> an Albedo module "The Drift?" just great.  Every pannel in the ship that
> might have had air behind it was bent, ripped up all the displays and
> controlls had exploded outwards, what a mess.

	Hate to get pissy about it, but this whole 'Explosive Decompression' 
bit is so overdone and untrue (just saw <another> bad sf flick that 
got it wrong;-(

	A ship that rapidly, even explosively vents it's air isn't going to 
have ripped panels or any suchlike. It's ONLY a 14 psi difference 
here! Loose paper's gonna blow around a lot, and whatever caused the 
decompression coould easily rip panels around and stuff, but hell, a 
balloon will hold up against a 14 psi difference easily. 

	Personell exposed to a rapid decompression do not: explode, spew 
blood out of every opening, have their heads swell like balloons, die 
instantly, or anything like that.  Hell, they won't even get the 
bends (you need to go deeper than one atmosphere underwaterbefore you 
have to start messing with the decompression tables).

	I believe Arthur C. Clarke wrote a short story that illustrates 
this. Some people need to get from a damages space station to a ship, 
by walking out the airlock without suits.  They do it simply and 
easily. Essentially you have to hyperoxygenate your blood (deep 
breathing for a minute or so) the open your mouth and float out. You 
may fart embarrassingly, and if you freak and hold your breath your 
ears will hurt, but thats about it...the worst you can get is a burst 
eardrum, and you'll be good for 30-90 seconds or so without passing 
out.

	Now, you don't want to get into direct sunlight (nasty sunburn), and you'll get pretty damn 
cold pretty quick, but getting to that airlock or other haven, such 
as a 'rescue ball', is quite doable.

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:14:44 -0700
Subject: Re: decompression & combat

At 03:16 PM 6/18/96 -0500, you wrote:

>  Thus the habit of suiting up and depressuring as much of the ship as 
>possible when going into combat.
>  It's a pest.  It's one less problem to deal with when you get hulled
>though.
>  Milspec workstations probably even have hook ups so suited crewmembers
>wouldn't have to change PLSS units on a regular basis.
>
True, if you know you're going into combat this is wonderful, but if your a
member of the Sheffield and you haven't the fantiest what's about to hit you...

Well say no more.

I would imagine that all workstations have PLSS hookups attached to them.  I
would think, in deep space the odds of being holed, while fairly slim are
still there and if you've got to get into a suit and stay there for several
days, it could be a real inconvenience if you had to change your PLSS pack
every few hours.

DS


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #113
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 18 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 114

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: explosive decompression...not
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #112
         3. Re: More Rocks & Thrusters
         4. Re: law level & stuff
         5. Missing RC Ships
         6. QSDS Ships Galore part 2, with Questions
         7. Re: explosive decompression...not
         8. Meson Beams
         9. More Rocks & Thrusters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:24:18 -0700
Subject: Re: explosive decompression...not

At 12:53 PM 6/18/96 MST7, you wrote:

>	Hate to get pissy about it, but this whole 'Explosive Decompression' 
>bit is so overdone and untrue (just saw <another> bad sf flick that 
>got it wrong;-(

Go right ahead.  

>	A ship that rapidly, even explosively vents it's air isn't going to 
>have ripped panels or any suchlike. It's ONLY a 14 psi difference 
>here! Loose paper's gonna blow around a lot, and whatever caused the 
>decompression coould easily rip panels around and stuff, but hell, a 
>balloon will hold up against a 14 psi difference easily. 

Is that all the difference is, 14 psi?  Didn't know that.

>	Personell exposed to a rapid decompression do not: explode, spew 
>blood out of every opening, have their heads swell like balloons, die 
>instantly, or anything like that.  Hell, they won't even get the 
>bends (you need to go deeper than one atmosphere underwaterbefore you 
>have to start messing with the decompression tables).

I never though they would.  Always thought this was pretty unrealistic
myself.  Though it does look good when you're trying to freak an audience out.

>	I believe Arthur C. Clarke wrote a short story that illustrates 
>this. Some people need to get from a damages space station to a ship, 
>by walking out the airlock without suits.  They do it simply and 
>easily. Essentially you have to hyperoxygenate your blood (deep 
>breathing for a minute or so) the open your mouth and float out. You 
>may fart embarrassingly, and if you freak and hold your breath your 
>ears will hurt, but thats about it...the worst you can get is a burst 
>eardrum, and you'll be good for 30-90 seconds or so without passing 
>out.

I would imagine it can't be terribly good on your eyes either.  

>	Now, you don't want to get into direct sunlight (nasty sunburn), and
you'll get pretty damn 
>cold pretty quick, but getting to that airlock or other haven, such 
>as a 'rescue ball', is quite doable.

I would imagine the extent of the damage done to the interior of the vessel
would vary tremendously depending upon the volume of the ship, how much of
it was exposed to vacuum and whether your iris valves worked properly, one
would hope they do.

I have a friend who would argue with you on the effect of explosive
decompression, mind you he'd argue with just about anyone on any topic, it's
just the kind of guy he is.  However, seeing as we have never first hand
experienced the effects of ED all of this is just theory.  I would imagine
NASA has done some work on it though.

DS


------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:12:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #112

>From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
>Date: 18 Jun 1996 09:38:41 GMT
>Subject: Re: Law Levels
>
>>I've always wanted to know why Traveller Law Level was based on the type 
>>of weapons the government let you carry.  Perhaps like tech level,
>>law level shouldn't be considered so 'cut and dry'.  I can easily
>>imagine a world with a law level of 4 that prohibits all weapons.
>>Also I can see a world with a law level of 9 that requires all citizens
>>to openly carry laser weapons.
>
>In World Builders Handbook, published by Digest Group Publications, there was
>many related  law levels governing different areas of life.  This is the
>system I always use.
>
>Now, rather than just a single numerical value (or several numerical values)
>describing severity, I'd be interested in an optional system to generate
>details about how the law works.  Eg., is it British common law, French Code
>Napoleon, Roman law, ...  Possibly a nice lawyer (we've got one here) could
>write a 2-3 page description of various legal codes?  (Hint, hint.)

ARE YOU INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!

Asking a lawyer to write 2 or three pages is like asking a shark to 
leave the woman and children alone!  Besides, the lawyer might actually
do it than bill everyone on this list!

(Notice I didn't make any jokes on your use of the word 'nice' and 'lawyer'
in the same sentence)

Actually, I think it's a bit of a mistake to think that only a lawyer can
come up with good information for legel systems in Traveller.  
Our own legel system is based on president.  Some worlds might 
base their legel system on logic, fairness, superstition, 
movement of the stars or dictator whim.

Laws don't even have to be based on a standard system.  For example, 
in Wisconsin, it's against the law to eat cheese while driving!  

- -Daniel






>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 06:59:02 -0700
>Subject: Re: Problems
>
>At 07:17 PM 6/17/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>First question: do you have the same amount of memory (i.e. is everything 
>>else the same)  In windows, especially, the amount ofmemory you have is 
>>almost *more* important than processor speed...
>
>I've gone from 8 to 16 meg and I've got lots of the original 640 left to run
>windows in.
>
>>second question: what exactly is the error you're getting...I might be 
>>able to help:)
>
>I can't remember.  I'll right it down next time.  It just pisses me off so
>much when it happens that I never right it down.  Next time it happens I'll
>send you a copy of the error code.  I did a bunch of work on the computer
>last night and re-installed some programs.
>
>Derek Stanley
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:01:31 -0700
>Subject: Re: Problems
>
>At 09:45 PM 6/17/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>Win 3.x should run fine on your Pentium.  There are a BUNCH of other things
>>that might make it ill, though.  Check w/somebody who's hardware/Windows
>>literate FTF to see whether your BIOS, caching, memory use, etc., are all
>>happy.  It may well be something silly/simple but likely isn't at all
>>obvious.  Doing it by email/mailing list may only make you miserabler... -
Bill
>
>I'm hoping that all the work I did last night will fix the damn thing.
>Thanks for the info though.  I spend a couple of hours re-installing some
>problem programs in the hopes that it'll fix the problem.  
>
>Perhaps I should increase the amount of virtual memory on the hard drive...
>
>DS
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:10:12 -0700
>Subject: Re: Meson beams
>
>At 10:06 PM 6/17/96 -0600, you wrote:
>> 
>>>    My tack on this is that MGs have a very "tight" targetting solution,
>>>    but _do_ have some spillover. This could be used to triangulate a DMS,
>>>    but only over an extended period of time. (It'd be hard to get an *exact*
>>>    bearing on a random-probability-smeared meson trail)
>>
>>Well, I didn't say it would be easy to detect it, just that it could be.
>>I don't see it as being all that hard, though.  When you consider that
>>DMSs are gonna be the very biggest MGs, using the most energy, it gets
>>even easier.
>
>This is true but when they're gutting your ships left right and center who
>wants to hang around long enough to figure out where they are?
>
>DS
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:21:32 +0200
>Subject: Re: Last-Minute QSDS Revisions
>
>     Derek,
>     
>     Any chance of there being a few more entries on the hull table.  
>     Specifically. more configurations per hull size would be useful, 
>     rather than more hull sizes.
>     
>     Cheers,
>     Liam
>     
>     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>Subject: Last-Minute QSDS Revisions
>Author:  Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> at internet
>Date:    18/06/96 14:11
>
>     
>I'm working on incorporating some last-minute revisions into QSDS.  These 
>will affect anyone who has already done a design; I'll let you all know 
>when the updated system is available.
>     
>                                 [snip]
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:22:12 -0700
>Subject: Re: Meson beams
>
>At 10:38 PM 6/17/96 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>I have a somewhat tangential question:  From where do the DMS's get their
>>targeting solutions?  Are there meson sensors that allow them to target
>>from within the planet?  If they are that deep, in all likelyhood,
>>neutrino emissions will be clouded---which means they would probably
>>prefer to use surface based sensors for a more accurate solution---take
>>those out, one take out some of their accuracy.  Also, on the subject of
>>combating DMS's: they have to be able to get the crews, etc. IN somehow
>>(how many troops do you think will volunteer to get sealed into something
>>analogous to the Biosphere II just to operate a DMS? Not many)---which
>>means any hostiles also have a potential method in (I didn't say it would
>>be an easy one).
>>
>I beleive if you read "PATH OF TEARS" there is data on the planet Kiepes.
>Kiepes has a DMS and I think they have a number of passive and active sensor
>sites scattered about the planets surface.  A "Sensor Web" if you will.
>>From this web the data is transmitted back to the DMS a targeting solution
>is plotted and bada bing bada bang bada boom starships start exploding like
>little cherry blossom's in space.  
>
>It's so lovely from the planet. 8)
>
>DS
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:21:52 -0700
>Subject: Re: Varia... and an offer.
>
>At 03:01 PM 6/18/96 +0800, you wrote:
>>
>>        Derek Stanley wrote:
>>>
>>>I have to as you people.  I've just finished upgrading from a 486x33 to a
>>>Pentium 100 and I'm having killer problems keeping windows up and running.
>>>Is windows 3.1 incapable of handling the speed of the computer or is there
>>>something really obvious that I'm missing out on.  Everytime I get going on
>>>Netscape it crashes 3-6 times.  I get all kinds of Unknown TTF errors and
>>>the list goes on.  The stupid thing is dos works just fine.
>>
>>        Do what I did: buy a Mac :).  Seriously, though, my old man just
>>went through some Netscape-related problems recently.  D'you want me to ask
>>him ?
>
>You know I thought of that but Mac are at least twice the price of an IBM
>Clone up here.  Sure ask him what he did to fix it.  I'm open to suggestions
>as long as they don't require Rattlesnake oil or self flaggulation. 8)
>
>DS
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:27:10 -0500
>Subject: law level & stuff
>
>derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:
>>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 16:21:54 -0700
>>>Just as a point of interest.  Our constitution does not 'grant' us
>>>the right to keep and bear arms. It only protects that right (and others)
>>>which we would have even in the absence of the constitution. 
>>This is way the hell off topic but I believe, and I will get flamed on this
>>one I'm sure, 
>  Not flamed, but corrected.
>
>>the line grants you "the right to bear arms in an organized
>>militia." or something to that effect.  
>  That is not what it says.  The ammendment reads:  'A well-regulated
>Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the
>people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'
>
>It defines a right of the people, not the states.  Or as the US Supreme
>Court put it: 
>"... 'the people' seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts
>of the Constitution. The Preamble declares that the Constitution is
>ordained, and established by 'the people of the U.S.' The Second Amendment
>protects the right of the people to keep and bear Arms...." - Supreme Court
>of the U.S., U.S. v. Uerdugo-Uriquidez (1990). 
>
>Would the phrase, "A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the
>security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books,
>shall not be infringed." mean that only registered voters can own books?
>
>>One of my friends was born in Arkansas, and he says that's how the line
goes.  
>  Oh that explains it. :-)
>
>ObTraveller:  One of my players supports victim disarment laws, but gets
>pissed when I tell him that his character can't carry his gauss pistol on
>a TL 7 world.  Even though the law level permits personal ownership of
>handguns.
>
>Mark Urbin eclipse@ultranet.com  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
>It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy 
>spot on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
>Opinions are MINE!  All Mine!  Bwwwaaaahhhh! 
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:28:02 -0700
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #91
>
>At 06:30 PM 6/17/96 PST, you wrote:
>
>>Spaceships have an advantage over seagoing vessels. They don't sink. If
>>you knock out the drives, the ship just continues on its current
>>vector, as modified by gravity. If the ship is in orbit (or moving slow
>>enough) then it'll *stay* in orbit.
>
>Ya.  Unfortunately when someone punches a hole in the side of a navy ship
>they may or may not float.  When someone punches a hole in the side of a
>starship you may or may not get blown out into the big black.  
>
>Steve Gallaci did a great picture of a ship after explosive decompression in
>an Albedo module "The Drift?" just great.  Every pannel in the ship that
>might have had air behind it was bent, ripped up all the displays and
>controlls had exploded outwards, what a mess.
>
>DS
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
>Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:34:14 -0800
>Subject: Re: Varia... and an offer.
>
>On 18 Jun 96 at 15:01, Roderick Darroch Elliott spewed:
>
>>         Getting back on topic, I've been wondering whether there are any
>> rules or background in Traveller regarding business associations.  I've been
>> thinking about throwing together a blurb on (very) basic corporate and
>> partnership entities, and private international (interplanetary?) law,
>> modified to fit Traveller.  I think it might provide some interesting
>> background/plot motors for the game.  If anyone's interested, I can put a
>> few hours in on it this weekend...
>> 
>
>I'm not aware of any, but that may not be saying all that much.  I'd 
>love to see what ideas you might have or contribute if you want some 
>thoughts...
>
>It'd be fun to read about something besides orbital bombardments for 
>once.  I'm beginning to think I subscribed to the Meteor Impact 
>Effects list... ;-)
>
>Stu
> 
>"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from
"Foundation"
>-
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------
>This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located
next to
>Bob's Pet Shop.
>Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of Traveller-digest V1996 #112
>**********************************
>
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------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:42:58 GMT
Subject: Re: More Rocks & Thrusters

=> Oh yeah, when the "rock" hits, the impact energy is only 2.40e21
=> Joules. Or 571 Gigatons.

I can just see old Wile E. Coyote with his little parasol, braced for impact
8-)

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:43:00 GMT
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

=> >ObTraveller:  One of my players supports victim disarment laws, but gets
=> >pissed when I tell him that his character can't carry his gauss pistol on
=> >a TL 7 world.  Even though the law level permits personal ownership of
=> >handguns.
=> 
=> This is the truth isn't it.  Everyone wants to get rid of guns untill the
=> man knocks on the door and says "I'm here to get your gun."  Then all of a
=> sudden its a civil defence issue.

You should have capitalized "The Man"-- he could be watching  8-)

[Conversation about body armour between Cop and Bwana snipped]

My players always ask why I consider obvious body armour worn in public to be
such a big deal.  While I don't consider armour to be illegal, neither is
dragging around a corpse in the local shopping mal (technically)l-- SOMEBODY is
going to want to know what's going on!  The armour may be confiscated, maybe
not, but it can result in a lot of wasted time down at the precinct while the
character is under interrogation.  Concealed body armour is even worse, since
the officer will want to know why the character is concealing something that is
meant "purely for defense".

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 16:58:26 -0400
Subject: Missing RC Ships

Hi,

I was rereading Path of Tears, and I came up with a list of all the
ships the RC has lost.  The Dawn Traders all have explanations to how
they were lost, but most of the other ships don't.  The list is: (minus
the 12 Dawn Traders)

Lady Elise  Captured by Vampires, used as carrier pigeon. Crew is dead.
(ref's screen)
Ashtabula          ??? (Lost 1201)
Taylor the Bruce   ??? (Lost 1201)
Mississinewa       ??? MFU
Kukulkan Victrix   ??? (Lost 1200)
Mirabilis Victrix  ??? MFU
Muan Gwi Victrix   ??? MFU
Ember Victrix      ??? (Lost 1201)
Valeria Victrix    ??? MFU

Has anyone seen any other mention of these ship's fate, or made up
their own.  I think the Ashtabula is of paticular interest, it played a
large part in the early history of the Coalition, and several of the
NPCS in Star Vikings are linked to it.  

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 18 Jun 96 13:48:32 MS
Subject: QSDS Ships Galore part 2, with Questions

As promised/threatened, this is the rest of the ships.  Based on Guy's note, 
these numbers will change, so I will repost the final corrections after his 
QSDS rewrite comes out.  

As Rob Miracle has noted, the economics are somewhat out of kilter here, but I 
am not as concerned about this as Rob is, since it seems to me that we could 
solve this by increasing the standard prices for tickets and hauled cargo.  And 
the Free Trader carries only 6 High Passengers after all, according to The 
Traveller Book (p64).  I don't have access just now to the old 3-book set to 
see if that was a change, or what.

I am still VERY concerned with the crew figures (which contributes to the 
economics problems).  In vessels with large power plants, the Engineering Crew 
becomes huge.  Look at the Mercenary Cruiser, for example.  If there is going 
to be a crew adjustment, I would start with this area.  I still think a 
TL-based or computer-based crew modifier could be added onto the existing QSDS 
rules without disrupting the work Guy has already done.

Another area of confusion: staterooms.  The QSDS rules imply that the 
staterooms can hold maximum 1 person.   Is double-occupancy no longer allowed?  
Is it allowed only for Large staterooms?  Some clarification would be in order.

Mercenary Cruiser
Tons:  800  Volume: 11200  Cost: 424.874 (445.95)
Crew:  59 (8)  Passengers (H/M): 40 Passengers (L): 2
Cargo: 19 (80)  Controls: Bridge/Fib Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating                   03 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating           03 G Rating / Thruster
01 Battery Mil Lsr 3-3-2-0       1.8 Power Plant Rating (1x750 MW)
02 Battery Mil Lsr 3-3-2-0       244 Fuel Rating
03 Battery Missile Barbette (5)  00 Meson Screen Rating
04 Battery Missile Barbette (5)  02 (30) Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery                       01 Damper Rating
00 Battery                       A10 P4 J10 Sensors TL12 Small Military
00 Battery                       60 Armor
00 Battery                       14 Structure

Crew Detail: 27 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 1 Astrogator, 1 Pilot, 4 Gunnery, 3 
Screens, 4 Small Craft Crew, 14 Command, 2 Medic, 1 Steward, 40 troops.(4 
Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Navigator, 1 Command, 1 Medic, 34 Troops)
Notes:  The Mercenary Cruiser has TL12 AdvancedCommo, and a TL12 10-ton 
capcaity fuel purifier.  The hull is an Unstreamlined Sphere (5U).  The ship 
carries two 50-ton Modular Cutters and 2 extra modules in grapples on the 
landing legs, as well as 2 ATVs and 2 Air Rafts.  There are 2 Low Berths for 
medical emergencies.  This version carries 40 troops, enough to carry a 
standard Marine platoon of 3 12-man squads and a 4-man command and support 
team.  The ship has 2 TL12 MFDs capable of controlling 4 missiles each.


Patrol Cruiser
Tons:  400  Volume: 5600  Cost: 285.28 (221.04)
Crew:  29 (10)  Passengers (H/M): 8 (8) Passengers (L): 0
Cargo: 12 (50)  Controls: Bridge/Fib Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating                   03 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating           04 G Rating / Thruster
01 Battery Mil Lsr 3-2-0-0       2 Power Plant Rating (2x200 MW)
02 Battery Mil Lsr 3-2-0-0       122.2 Fuel Rating
03 Battery Missile Barbette (5)  00 Meson Screen Rating
04 Battery Missile Barbette (5)  00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery                       00 Damper Rating
00 Battery                       A10 P4 J10 Sensors TL12 Small Military
00 Battery                       10 Armor
00 Battery                       12 Structure

Crew Detail: 14 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 1 Astrogator, 1 Pilot, 4 Gunnery, 5 
Command, 1 Medic, 1 Steward, 8 troops.(3 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Navigator, 1 
Medic, 4 Gunners, 8 Troops)
Notes:  The Patrol Cruiser has TL12 AdvancedCommo, and a TL12 10-ton 
capcaity fuel purifier.  The hull is an Airframe Needle (1A).  The ship carries 
a 30-ton Ship's Boat in an AirFrame Grapple, as well as an ATV.  There are 2 
TL12 MFDs each capable of controlling 4 missiles. 


Lab Ship
Tons:  400  Volume: 5600  Cost: 211.878 (158.98)
Crew:  19(5)  Passengers (H/M): 20 (20) Passengers (L): 0
Cargo: 11 (23) Controls: Bridge/fib Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating          02 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating  01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery              01 Power Plant Rating (3x 75 MW)
00 Battery              81.2 Fuel Rating
00 Battery              00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery              00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery              00 Damper Rating
00 Battery              A10 P4 J10 Sensors TL12 Small Military
00 Battery              00 Armor
00 Battery              06 Structure

Crew Detail: 8 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 1 Navigator, 1 Astrogator, 1 Pinnace 
Pilot, 3 Command, 1 Medic, 2 Stewards. (2 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Navigator, 1 
Medic)
Notes:  The Lab Ship has TL12 Advanced Commo, and a TL12 10-ton capcaity fuel 
purifier.  The hull is an Unstreamlined Open Structure (0U)


Yacht
Tons:  200  Volume: 2800  Cost: 66.711 (51.057)
Crew:  9 (4)   Passengers (H/M): 10 Passengers (L): 0
Cargo: 10 (11) Controls: Bridge Tech Level: 11

08 Size Rating          01 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating  01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery              01 Power Plant Rating (100 MW & 10 MW)
00 Battery              20.6 Fuel Rating
00 Battery              00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery              00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery              00 Damper Rating
00 Battery              A0 P2 J0 Sensors TL10 Improved
00 Battery              20 Armor
00 Battery              11 Structure

Crew Detail: 4 Engineers, 1 Electronics, 1 Astrogator, 1 Command, 1 Medic, 1 
Steward. (1 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Medic, 1 Steward)
Notes:  The Yacht has TL11 ImprovedCommo, and no fuel purifier.  It carries a 
30-ton Ship's Boat in a Minimal Hangar, an ATV and an Air Raft  The hull is an 
Streamlined Cylinder Structure (3S).  The stateroom for the Ownder Aboard 
consists of a two-large stateroom Suite with a small stateroom office.


Safari Ship
Tons:  200  Volume: 2800  Cost: 71.897 (81.08)
Crew:  14 (5)   Passengers (H/M): 6 Passengers (L): 0 (0)
Cargo: 10 (6) Controls: Bridge Tech Level: 11

08 Size Rating              02 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating      01 G Rating / Thruster
01 Battery Civ Lsr 2-0-0-0  1.5 Power Plant Rating (3x 50MW)
00 Battery                  40.9 Fuel Rating
00 Battery                  00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery                  00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery                  00 Damper Rating
00 Battery                  A0 P2 J0 Sensors TL10 Improved
00 Battery                  10 Armor
00 Battery                  09 Structure

Crew Detail: 5 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 1 Astrogator, 1 Gunner, 2 Command, 1 
Medic, 2 Steward. (1 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Navigator, 1 Medic, 1 Steward)
Notes:  The Safari Ship has TL11 ImprovedCommo, and a TL11 10-ton capacity fuel 
purifier.  It carries a 20-ton Launch in a Streamlined Grapple, as well as an 
Air Raft  The hull is an Streamlined Disk Structure (6S).  There is a 6-ton 
Trophy Room, as well as 2 7-ton capture cages that can be used as 
triple-capacity Emergency Low Berths in an emergency.  The crew requirements 
are somewhat inflated, as the Gunner and Stewards act as bearers/beaters during 
the hunt.  The Owner-Aboard, generally a prize-winning hunter, has a small 
stateroom to use as a personal office/trophy room, in addition to the large 
stateroom quarters he is assigned.


Overall Comparison Trivia (QSDS vs CT)
Ship            Crew     Cargo    Cost
Scout           1/1      18/3     49/29 
Free Trader     7/4      73/82    51/37
Sub. Merchant   12/5     271/200  78/101
Sub. Liner      14/9     105/129  82/236
Merc. Cruiser   59/8     19/80    424/445
Patrol Cruiser  29/10    12/50    285/221
Lab Ship        19/5     11/23    211/158
Yacht           9/4      10/11    66/51
Safari Ship     14/5     10/6     71/81

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:08:33 GMT
Subject: Re: explosive decompression...not

=> 	Hate to get pissy about it, but this whole 'Explosive Decompression' 
=> bit is so overdone and untrue (just saw <another> bad sf flick that 
=> got it wrong;-(

That wouldn't have been "Outland", would it?

=> 	Personell exposed to a rapid decompression do not: explode, spew 
=> blood out of every opening, have their heads swell like balloons, die 
=> instantly, or anything like that.

I guess it was "Outland"  8-)


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:25:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Meson Beams

I said:
>>    My tack on this is that MGs have a very "tight" targetting solution,
>>    but _do_ have some spillover. This could be used to triangulate a DMS,
>>    but only over an extended period of time. (It'd be hard to get an *exact*
>>    bearing on a random-probability-smeared meson trail)

then Merrick said:
>Well, I didn't say it would be easy to detect it, just that it could be.
>I don't see it as being all that hard, though.  When you consider that
>DMSs are gonna be the very biggest MGs, using the most energy, it gets
>even easier.

  I was going to let this drop, we're really disagreeing here on matters
  of degree not form, but I just thought I'd add that all you have is a bearing
  only solution - there's no easy way to *range* the DMS, therefor you can't
  really be sure exactly what depth it's at, or even *which side* of the planet
  it's on. It'd still likely be good enough to send a team down to look at the
  most likely areas, though.


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:27:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: More Rocks & Thrusters

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>Please consider the fact that the "100 diameter" limit is rather close
>to the planet as distances in space go, and that fully predicting the
>exit vector (direction *or* magntitude) is not practical. If it *was*
>practical, that allows the terrorists to do all the accelerating
>*before* jump. It also allows tactics that we don't see.

  I agree 100%. I also postulate in my universe that jumps will advertise
  themselves with a gravitic pulse that is easily detectable.

>And how hard is it to overpower the harbor pilot?

  Not hard at all, his bodyguards in combat armour *can* be a wee little
  problem, though. There is also the question of the anti-terrorist program
  that he will no doubt activate while he's on the bridge.

  Do you have his codes available? Are you prepared to die when the DMS
  fires on you after you deviate from the allowed flight plan?

  Lots of adventure possiblities here.

>Slight problem. The *best* source of such things is too big to patrol.

  Yep.

>Now, we'll be at least 100 AU out, more likely over 1000.

>So, we accelerate for a while. If we have 1000 AU to accelerate in,
>things work out like this:

>1.5e14 km at 1.6 m/sec = 1.37e7 seconds (159 days)
>Max V is 2.19e7 m/s or about 7% of c.

>Assuming they cut loose at 50 AU, then the time to impact is: 3.42e5
>seconds (or about 95 hours). At 4 g, it'll take 155 hours to match
>velocity (which is necessary to even *begin* to change course). At 6g
>it'll take 104 hours. So even if it's detectable at 50 AU, there isn't
>*time* to intercept it.

>That brings up another detail. At 50 AU out, it takes almost 7 *hours*
>for any signal from the rock (reflected light, radar pulses, whatever)
>to get to the mainworld. By which time it's 3.65 AU closer.

>Also, since the Oort cloud is *not* confined to the plane of the
>ecliptic, the attack can come from *any* angle.

>Oh yeah, it'll take 26 days for the terrorists to brake to a stop
>(after they've jumped, if they have any brains). Where did they get the
>fuel? Most bodies that far out are at least partial "icy" (frozen
>water, methane, ammonia, etc). Getting fuel from that is easy.

  Nitpick here: How do they "farm" for fuel when they're travelling at
  fractional-cee velocities? I toyed with the idea for a while and
  concluded that it would be impractical to push, decellerate, grab some
  fuel, accelerate, push, etc. (repeat as necessary) This would give
  diminishing returns VERY quickly. A dedicated fueling fleet perhaps?
  Man, you better assume this is a Black Op - no terrorist group is going
  to have this kind of wherewithal without MAJOR support.

  Also, don't assume they won't be detected 'til late. MT (don't have
  FF&S handy) says you can get passive EMS out to 2 parsecs. Seems
  excessive to me, but the next one up says 100,000 AU. Given that
  the jump emergence pulse will show up like a strobe, warning PD
  (Planetary Defence) something's up, I don't think it's a unreasonable
  to assume that PD will catch on quickly, especially that after the rock
  starts giving off gamma from particle collisions.

  Hmm. This brings up another point. Since Traveller starships have no
  magic force fields, perhaps this is a reasonable way to limit
  reactionless thrusters? Radiation poisoning could ruin your whole day,
  and it doesn't take that much V to get a nasty sunburn from particle
  collisions.

>Oh yeah, when the "rock" hits, the impact energy is only 2.40e21
>Joules. Or 571 Gigatons.

  Even if PD doesn't catch on quick enough, a fractional-cee KKW can
  *always* be stopped, provided a ship is available starting out
  between the rock and the planet. Like I said trivial to prove.

  Rather than bring out the Big Gun myself, I'll let you say it. <g>


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
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------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 18 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 115

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Zeta Fields
         2. Re: Meson Beams
         3. CT Adventures Re-release, or Web Published
         4. RE: Thrusters
         5. Symbols of the New Imperium
         6. Re: Problems  [Winning95...]
         7. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
         8. Planetary Invasions
         9. Re: law level & stuff
        10. Meson Beam Danger Zone
        11. Symbols
        12. Re: More QSDS designs
        13. Re: law level & stuff
        14. Re: Thrusters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:28:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Zeta Fields

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> writes:
>>   It's *real* simple to justify not reaching c with inertial dampers:
>> drag. Yes, I said DRAG. Interstellar space is NOT empty. In fact, even
>> (especially!) ordinary reaction drives will be limited to much less than c
>> because the drag of interstellar gases as one approaches c is VERY
>> significant and the exhaust velocity of your drive then becomes critical
>> in determining howclose you can get to c. Of course, mass dilation
>> complicates this as well.

>Sure, but consider just *how* fast you have to be moving for a drive
>capable of 6 g to have its thrust balanced by drag! And relativistic
>mass increase doesn't matter if you are neutralizing the ship's mass.
>Though I guess it'd increase the drag.

  Relativistic mass _does_ matter - remember, according to GR/SR there is
  no mathematical difference between the ship moving forward at c, and the
  particles moving backwards at c. As far as the ship is concerned, it's
  getting hit by these extremely massive pancake shaped particles.

  I think the practical result would be a rapidly escalating scale of drag.

>Smith had the ships requiring force fields reinforcing the hull.

  Absolutely essential. Rad poisoning is NO fun.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 



------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:53:18 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Meson Beams

 
>   I was going to let this drop, we're really disagreeing here on matters
>  of degree not form, but I just thought I'd add that all you have is a bearing
>   only solution - there's no easy way to *range* the DMS, therefor you can't
>  really be sure exactly what depth it's at, or even *which side* of the planet
>   it's on. It'd still likely be good enough to send a team down to look at the
>   most likely areas, though.

Well, I kept going 'cause it seemed interesting :-)  Disagreeing on
quantitative stuff sure beats flames, however.

As for it being a bearing only solution... if the ship ain't moving, and
the beam is coming *at* you, then you're right.  If the sensor moves,
you'll get a triangulation (some, anyway) assuming the event isn't
uniform (a couple decays close to each other in space, a little apart in
time).

Then you have the fact that the image will be a line across space.
Again, a 2d solution.  Combined there's a good chance at imaging the
beam after a bit.  Particularly if the weapon has a high ROF.

The consequences though might add neat flavor... DMSs shooting at low
ROFs, and switching targets frequently. Or multiple DMSs working in
concert to try and baffle attackers.  Orbital meson emitters to do noise
jamming, etc..  Fun stuff :-)

- -Merrick
> 
> 
> -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
>    Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
>    http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html
> 
> Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
> in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
> violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
>  
> 
> 
> 


------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:20:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CT Adventures Re-release, or Web Published

I've heard so many good things about these old adventures from GDW such as
"Secret of the Ancients" "Signal GK (Which I'm interested in since getting
TNE)", and many others.  Would it be possible for Imperium Games to do one
of the following:

o  Put them out on their Web Page, for all to download (or a FTP site -
ftp.imperiumgames.com?)
o  Re-release them updated to T4 rules, in one package or a few publications
(ie. Classic Adventures Volume I, etc.)

Also, I was wondering this, will IG have an FTP site for fan-made materials
to be uploaded to?

Lastly, in this multi-subject message, what ever happened to the MM
interview questions?  I thought this was going to be done June 1st?

Thanks,

Peter Miller


------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:17:28 -0400
Subject: RE: Thrusters

Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> wrote:
> >o They must not produce planet-killers (e.g., >0.1c dropped rocks)
>    <sigh> No matter *what* you do this will ALWAYS be possible.

I disagree. As others have said before, you should be able to tell your
players that it is simply impossible (and not just "morally unacceptible").
Certainly dropping rocks will be possible, but it need not be possible to
drop a rock at 0.8c with enough kinetic energy to crack a planet in half!
Make sure that the referee can say this is impossible without going directly
against the rulebook. You *will* lose players otherwise.

Consider a group of relatively new players. Using descriptions from the
rulebook, they progressively come up with newer and better uses for certain
items. Each seems reasonable and "legal", but eventually they come up with
a "superweapon". You could say no to it, but then you may have to back out
some history. Besides, you can certainly infer from the rules that it is
legal. But if the "superweapon" was possible, somebody else clearly would
have come up with it earlier. You may or may not have the option of adding
some danger to its use, but the players may be willing to risk it anyway.

Now, no matter what you do, the game system looks bad--you either undo
character actions, move your campaign away from the Traveller "feel", or
tell your players "well I'll allow it this time...". It leaves a bad taste
in people's mouths whatever you do.

You don't have to explain how things like maneuver drives work. But if
you do, consider all of the consequences of your explanation.

>    Impossible. Anything that's capable of reaching escape welocity
>    is a threat. That means *all* space craft violate your assumptions.

There is a *big* difference between a ship traveling at 20 km/s and one
traveling at greater than 30,000 km/s.

> >o There must be a reason to use them instead of fusion rockets
>    There already is one - no need for reaction mass.

I'm talking about the comprehensive solution here. If thrusters cost more,
use more fuel (even considering that used as reaction mass), are just as
dangerous, and don't give you the same thrust, then people won't use them.

>    *IF* you mean that there must be a reasonable power consumption, ok
>    I agree with you.

You are right, that is what really matters. Of course, this alone could
prevent the 0.8c planet-cracker if done right. You also will *not* get
unlimited acceleration for a month this way unless something like the
"zeta field" is used.

>    There is one simple problem with that last, you assume that a
>    vulnerable planet will *always* fight. Why can't they surrender?

I don't care at all about military actions. Just make sure it is not the
case that *every* ship can *completely* destroy a planet by dropping a
rock on it. Sure, a ship *might* be able to screw up the ecosystem of a
*completely unprotected* planet (destroying itself in the process), but
that is not the same thing.

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:09:01 -0700
Subject: Symbols of the New Imperium

A few ideas that popped into my head...

OFFICE OF CALENDER COMPLIANCE:

An Imperial sunburst with a "orbit ring" around it, seen as if from a few
degrees above the ecliptic, along the ring are regulare hashmarks.  This
suggests a year divided up equally.

IMPERIAL INTERSTELLAR SCOUT SERVICE:

A triangle, point up.  from the two bottom corners of the triangel, arching
up to about 1/4 the height, is a view of a blue-green planet (picture the
view from the space shuttle).  Near the top, about the 2/3rds height line,
is a sunbirst in red.  The rest of the field is black, with white/silver
stars added.  The whole thing is surronded by a red border

On the Imperial standard.. I believe it is canon (there's that word again..
) that the original Imperial Flag was a black banner with a gold sun.  It
wasn't until 247 that color became optional.  Though I imagine the branches
of the military taking distinctive colors early on.

Side note:  Does anyone have the complete alphabet that DGP used in their
artwork?  I trnaslated most of the signs, but it seemed that some letters
were missing.. I need this for costuming purposes..  :)

# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: "Nacht" <nacht@neosoft.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:24:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Problems  [Winning95...]

- ----------
> From: Bill Rutherford <worj@worldweb.net>
[snip]
> Win 3.x should run fine on your Pentium.  There are a BUNCH of other things
> that might make it ill, though.  Check w/somebody who's hardware/Windows
[snip]
> At 03:25 PM 6/17/96 -0700, you wrote:
> >I have to as you people.  I've just finished upgrading from a 486x33 to a
> >Pentium 100 and I'm having killer problems keeping windows up and running.
[snip]

I have/had trouble with Netscape an certain sites on the web...  Starfish Software,
Windows95.com, Caligari, etc.

Sometimes clearing the browser cache helps...  ;-|  But d/l the latest Atlas, oh,
I guess it's Navigator 3.0betaX now...

Any other Win95 troubles?  I get to try and fix them every day...  ;-)
- -- 
David Reed
<nacht@neosoft.com>
PGP Public Key Available To Nice People

Murphy's Law
"To err is human...
but to really f*ck things up
requires the root password..."


------------------------------

From: Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:19:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> And if the DMS is actually a "subterrene" cruising thru the magma,
> your triangulation is going to be of little help.
> 
> Of course, I'd imagine that *designing* such a "subterrene" would be an
> interesting excercise.
> 
> And even more fun would be if the attacker manages to land an "attack
> subterrene" of his own. *That* would be a battle.
> 

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Once they can find it 
multiple Meson Gun equiped capital ships could take out the DMG. This is 
an interesting design problem. I'm not familiar with the FF&S rules but
with the limitations imposed on meson guns by HG it would be easy to take 
care of the DMG problem from orbit. Before the FF&S vs. HG flamewar 
starts my point is that another Meson gun or group of orbital meson guns 
could take out a planet bound DMG no matter where you hide it. 

I'm curious as to the range of these DMG's though. Would it be on the 
order of Earth -- Mars at closest approach. The reason I ask is because 
that's where the DMG would be useful against terrorists hauling a rock to 
try and destroy your mainworld.

Chris
- --
      __o          "All I was doing was trying to get home from work."
    _`\<,_           -Rosa Parks
___(*)/_(*)___________________________________________________________
Christopher Sean Hilton                           <chris@vindaloo.com>
                           For pgp key finger: <chilton@shoga.wwa.com>


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:36:53 -0700
Subject: Planetary Invasions

At 11:35 AM 6/18/96 -0400, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de> writes:
>
>> When invading a world, I can't believe that a sane soldier would agree in
>> using a one-way-ticket in a flying casket. An armored grav transport may be
>> a larget target but it's psychologically better and offers the opportunity
>> to retreat back to orbit.
>
>By that reasoning, paratroopers would never parachute into enemy
>territory. Yet that is the very *purpose* of paratroops. To go into
>enemy territory in advance and destroy targets or hold objective until
>the main forces can get there.

And yet the day of the mass tactical drop is over.  There has been some
serious discussion of deactivating the 82nd Airborne as a cost cutting
measure.  The real strength of Airborne is in the infiltration possibilities.

>> The defending army can't destroyed easily if their troops and command
>> centers are highly mobil. The invader also cannot destroy all supply-camps
>> or construction plants because he needs to support, too. It's the defender,
>> who has the larger resources and so has the better chances.
>
>The problem here is that given Traveller technology, being mobile is
>going to make you a bigger target! 
>
>Im my forces have orbital superiority, then we can broadcast a warning
>that *any* vehicles moving between population centers will be destroyed
>without warning. And we've got the weapons to enforce it. 
>
>That kills your "mobility". You either have to move slowly, or you have
>to be *well* stealthed. 

Move counter-move.. remember, the French felt secure at Dien Bien Phu
because the Viet Minh had no heavy weapons to hit the airfield.  Until the
VM *manhandled* 105mm howitzers onto a mountaintop, and carried the ammo one
shell at a time.

In Vietnam, the US invested millions in new tech to find the enemy, and it
failed.  I believe that most Planetary Denfence Forces (PDF) will be trained
to go to ground, organize resistence, and wait for the oppurtunity to strike.

>Note that such measures also encourage surrender. Once an area has
>surrendered, you can allow *limited* movement. So until a city
>surrenders, it doesn't get any supplies... including *food*.

And what happens when the "pacified" area suddenly is rocked with air/raft
bombs, and your troops are being Bobbitted by the sweet young local they've
been seeing?

>> But woudn't modern targetting equipment allow to automatically target each
>> intruder and burn him away? Something like an anti-parachuter gun? If they
>> use ordinary parachutes, it's enough to destroy their robes. Otherwise, it
>> might be possible to distorb their anti-grav units and let them drop like
>> stone to ground.
>
>The problem is telling *which* targets are jump troops, and which are
>decoys and "chaff". The whole idea of jump troops is that for every
>trooper there are *dozens* of equally good targets. Plus, I get the
>impression that the orbital support elements would be engaging in fire
>suppression.

I seem to recall that the RC Equipment Guide had a varient of the basic drop
capsule that carried deadfall ordinance or a guide missle.  Put a radar
detector in the nose, when it picks up a radar lock, it either drops all its
bombs or launches a missle right at the set that locked it up.

>So if you shoot at something that *might* be a trooper, you are
>inviting counter-fire from *much* bigger guns.

Not to mention the righteous fury of the guys you were shooting at.  The
Germans learned in Sicily that aircraft were legit targets.  AAA crews that
fired on paratroopers were massacred. 

>> >1. Gain space superiority.
>> >2. Suppress ground defenses using ortillery.
>> >3. Land jump troops to clear a landing zone.
>> >4. Land grav combat vehicles to defend and expand perimeter.
>> >5. Land support units (repair, medical, commo, and so forth) to
>> >   enable offensive actions out of perimeter.

>> My next question is, why not exchange 3. and 4. For me, it seems more
>> natural to more persevering heavy grav tanks than vulnerable infantry. To
>> capture ground installations, you'll need foot troops, of course, but to
>> establish a bridgehead you would need heavier combat equipment.
>
>Why do troops always land first in modern assualts? Because they are
>*smaller* targets. Once you've got men and some heavy weapons in place,
>you have a chance to get the heavier equipment landed.

Also, infantry can see more.  A tanker involved with flying his Intrepid,
watching for enemy tanks, and listening for the TC's next order isn't going
to notice the squad with dug in VRF Gauss guns and the anti-tank missle.

Basically, you want your Landing Zone to be free of enemy artillery.  This
is your marshalling point, and things will get confused, as different units
land, plans get changed, and the supply bus brings in tons of material.

If you can clear a ring about 20km in diameter of enemy vehicles, you can
start bringing down the big guys.

>Also, you attack *several* places on the ground, land troops on some of
>them, and only follow up with armor and the like on a few. The enemy
>has to *guess* where your *real* beachead is, and which are just
>feints.

Exactly.  Bluffs can work well too.  In the Gulf War, the Marines sailed up
and down of Kuwait, driving the Iraqi high command nuts!  When the ground
phase began, *7* Navy SEALs went ashore and caused enough rukus that the
Iraqi commander that a USMC division was ashore.


# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:47:52 -0700
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

At 08:43 PM 6/18/96 GMT, you wrote:

>You should have capitalized "The Man"-- he could be watching  8-)

Ya, you don't want to anger "The Man".  8)

>My players always ask why I consider obvious body armour worn in public to be
>such a big deal.  While I don't consider armour to be illegal, neither is
>dragging around a corpse in the local shopping mal (technically)l-- SOMEBODY is
>going to want to know what's going on!  The armour may be confiscated, maybe
>not, but it can result in a lot of wasted time down at the precinct while the
>character is under interrogation.  Concealed body armour is even worse, since
>the officer will want to know why the character is concealing something that is
>meant "purely for defense".

Its amazing how totally PO'd they get when you try to point these things
out.  "By the way assault rifles are illegal on this planet."  

Ya well they're illegal in Canada too, doesn't mean you can walk down a
public street with a Gloc on your hip and a shotgun over your back though.
Try to point this out and everyone's nose gets out of joint.

PLAYER:  Why can't I carry my man portable death ray?  It's only SMG's that
are illegal on this planet.

GM:  Just because it's legal doesn't mean you can walk down main street with
it on your hip.

And a person in obvious Body Armor is probably carrying a weapon somewhere.
Although it's a great thing to base an adventure around.

PUNK:  Look, tough guy in armor.

PC:  Hi guys, do you know where the Rubicon Club is?

PUNK:  Ya, what's it to ya mister macho?

Get's the locals backs up in a hurry.

DS


------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 18 Jun 96 16:32:36 MS
Subject: Meson Beam Danger Zone

 Tony Zbaraschuk <tonyz@eskimo.com> wrote
>In regard to meson beams, Supplement #9 says that the fighter launch tudes on a
>Tigress-class BB are off to the side of the ship, so that the fighters won't
>be flying into the meson beam when launced or landed.
>
>Guess that meson beams don't decay straight into the target...

Could be a morale thing.  The fighter pilots are all educated guys and know 
that the Meson beam is safe at that range, but there's always a sinking 
suspiscion "What if the Gunnery guys mess up today?"

I recall similar feelings during a live-fire Army exercise one upon a time.

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 18 Jun 96 16:38:55 MS
Subject: Symbols

Had a general thought about symbols in the Year 0 Mileu.  I would suspect that 
on many worlds the ruling families will trace some of their legitimacy to the 
Rule of Man; grandpa 6 times removed was a Rule of Man governor, and his 
grandpa 4 times back had been a Terran Confederation Navy Commander.  I would 
suspect that many "Coats of Arms" or similar symbols would include some part of 
the UN logo motif used by the Terran Confederation; for example, a circle with 
the olive branches on either side would serve as the basis of the symbol, like 
a shield symbol is used on a Coat of Arms today.  This would become 
increasingly important as the Syleans being to move outward and expand; using 
symbols to recall the glory of the previous Empire, and in some measure claim 
legitimate inheritance rights to it.

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com

------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:15:13 MST7
Subject: Re: More QSDS designs

	Rob Miracle mentioned that, without spec cargoes, the QSDS far
trader couldn't pay for itself.  He's right, but more of an
indication that the economics rules are broken than anything else.

	The 'Crewmember as employee' paradigm that's used probably wouldn't
apply to a small trader like that.  A major transport corp could
well afford the Far Trader, because they'll get an even steeper
discount on the ships due to volume purchase.  A Ford escort is
cheap, but it's even cheaper when you buy five or six thousand of
them, like a big rental company.

	A better economic model of an independent trader is, in fact pretty
much how most Trav PC's with their own ships operate, as a
partnership, with shares in the profits as the only salary...banks
make loans, relatively large ones, on this basis all the time. Yes
they're risky, and that's why they charge the interest they do. 
Also skip tracing in the imperium must be a lucrative business (And
sometimes the borrower gets caught...our dear guv'nor was indicted
on 23 counts of fraud, etc last week over a failed real estate
venture.)

	"The life of a repo man is always interesting!"

	Also, the only income figures you used are from a universe where the 
ships get by with half the crews...if expenses go up, the rate for a 
high or middle passage is certainly going to be higher.  
Remember...if the crew needed for your little tramp Far Trader has 
doubled, so has the crew requirement for that luxurious 5000 ton QE2 
of the SpaceLanes.  That means you're applying the wrong income to 
the equation.  The same goes for cargo rates as well.

	This simply points out that there has to be a little inflation in 
the Traveller universe to account for the union rules for ship's 
engineers ;-)

My 0.04 cr (adjusted for a higher crew size)


Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: farrarb@vnet.net (Bill Farrar)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:07:11 GMT
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

>Its amazing how totally PO'd they get when you try to point these things
>out.  "By the way assault rifles are illegal on this planet."  
>
All I can say is, i wish I'd had more inventive players.  They never
*push* back at me....

Here's how it went in my canpaign:

GM: You have travelled through the system, and are about to land at the
starport.  This is where you believe the badguys base is.

PLAYERS: Ok, I'm getting my shotgun, and laser rifle.  Player2 is getting
his full body armour and FGMP.

GM: Hmm...thisis a law 'X' planet, both of those are illegal to cary
here..*thinking* yes they'll bug the guy in the battle suit, but he can
blow them away...

PLAYERS: OH, ok, well we'll have to figure somehting else out then...
{confers among themselves trying to find 'legal' weapons...}

i about fell out of my chair.

bill

Bill Farrar, C++Windows Programmer.
The Linking and Binding is the Important step...
"60 Million Gigabits can do alot.  It can even do Windows"
Fred Pohl, _Beyond_The_Blue_Event_Horizon_

------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:06:59 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Thrusters

 
> Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> wrote:
> > >o They must not produce planet-killers (e.g., >0.1c dropped rocks)
> >    <sigh> No matter *what* you do this will ALWAYS be possible.
> 
> I disagree. As others have said before, you should be able to tell your
> players that it is simply impossible (and not just "morally unacceptible").
> Certainly dropping rocks will be possible, but it need not be possible to
> drop a rock at 0.8c with enough kinetic energy to crack a planet in half!
> Make sure that the referee can say this is impossible without going directly
> against the rulebook. You *will* lose players otherwise.

Yeah. The idea (IMHO) isn't to make it impossible to do, just a little
more unlikely for somebody to do without much thought.

The limits are political/social:  This is an imoral act, a crime against
humanity (sentience).

Physical:  Before your Scout shi[p gets enough velocity to wreak a world
you'll hit a micrometeor an the ship will become a dispersed cloud of
debris (moving at a very high velocity, but less likely to do world
killing damage :-)

I think this works pretty well.  The only rules addition is to
explicitly state that going above a certain velocity (relative to local
matter) is Bad_For_Your_Health_(tm).  Easy enough to do, and doesn't
break canon at all (as I see it).  CT doesn't include special relativity
rules, so ships must not ever go that fast...

- -Merrick

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #115
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 19 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 116

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Meson Beam Danger Zone
         2. Re: Missing RC Ships
         3. Re: More QSDS designs
         4. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
         5. Re: Symbols
         6. Re: law level & stuff
         7. Lurking lawyers...
         8. Corporations in Space...
         9. Computer problems...
        10. FFS Light - Conversions Available
        11. Re: Meson Beam Danger Zone
        12. [none]
        13. Re: Done To Death: Rock Dropping.
        14. Re: Missing RC Ships
        15. legal systems...
        16. Dragging corpses around...
        17. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
        18. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:09:57 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Meson Beam Danger Zone

 
>  Tony Zbaraschuk <tonyz@eskimo.com> wrote
>In regard to meson beams, Supplement #9 says that the fighter launch tudes on a
> >Tigress-class BB are off to the side of the ship, so that the fighters won't
> >be flying into the meson beam when launced or landed.
> 
> Could be a morale thing.  The fighter pilots are all educated guys and know 
> that the Meson beam is safe at that range, but there's always a sinking 
> suspiscion "What if the Gunnery guys mess up today?"

True.  Real pions would decay after passing through some matter (and
traveller ships are collapsed matter at high TLs, right?).  I'd think
that if you had to spend a reaonable fraction of your life near a
radiation source it's just a safety measure (the dose would be small,
but you'll get lots of doses---easier to move the landing area than pay
the medical bills later :-)

- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:09:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Missing RC Ships

At 04:58 PM 6/18/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Lady Elise  Captured by Vampires, used as carrier pigeon. Crew is dead.
>(ref's screen)
>Ashtabula          ??? (Lost 1201)

Ashtabula is the one ship on this list I think is mislabled.  In the
"Personalities Guide" Pat "Who Me?" Ritter, captain of the ThunderChild (?)
wants despirately to get his ship transfered to Diaspora so he can look for
Ashtabula.  The word Lost implies to me that she was destroyed in a battle
and everyone knows it.  MFU (Missing Fate Unknown) is probably a better
description of what happened to Ashtabula.  No one knows.

On a personal note I was trying to track down Ashtabula too, my PC was a
crew member of Ashtabula during the rescue mission, wounded at Vezina,
transfered to Aubane for medical attention.  Ashtabula disappeared before I
could get reassigned to the ship.  I poked and prodded my GM for clues but
he never gave me any.  I'd say anyship listed as LOST, was destroyed beyond
repair, any ship listed as MFU is up to you.  I'd like to hear what your
decision is on Ashtabula.  I think she misjumped and is somewhere in
Diaspora, but who really knows, maybe she was destroyed by a Vampire Fleet.

>Taylor the Bruce   ??? (Lost 1201)

Taylor the Bruce was lost in combat.  

RCEG Pg. 150.  "As two of this type, Lady Elise and Taylor the Bruce, have
already been lost or listed as missing, this type has fallen into disfavor."
Where and by whom I guess is your choice.  Probably towards Diaspora and
more than likely due to guild or pirate action.

>Mississinewa       ??? MFU
>Kukulkan Victrix   ??? (Lost 1200)
>Mirabilis Victrix  ??? MFU
>Muan Gwi Victrix   ??? MFU
>Ember Victrix      ??? (Lost 1201)
>Valeria Victrix    ??? MFU

As for the rest of the the choice is entirely yours.  Perhaps I'll write up
stuff on the fates of these ships at a later date and post it for everyone's
approval.

>Has anyone seen any other mention of these ship's fate, or made up
>their own.  I think the Ashtabula is of paticular interest, it played a
>large part in the early history of the Coalition, and several of the
>NPCS in Star Vikings are linked to it.  

Ashtabula
Motto: "Say Goodnight Hoss."
Symbol: "A Broadsword Class Mercenary Cruiser surrounded by flames decending
through the atmosphere."
Known Surviving Crew Members:  Sean "Hammer" Lathrope, Pat "Who Me?" Ritter,
Kayla "Voodoo" Shadowalker, Dr. Tavril "Grumble" Habius.

DS

"Say Goodnight Hoss"


------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:15:34 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: More QSDS designs

 
> 	Rob Miracle mentioned that, without spec cargoes, the QSDS far
> trader couldn't pay for itself.  He's right, but more of an
> indication that the economics rules are broken than anything else.

This is true, but I think that there is another issue to be raised:  TL
differences.

Make sure when redoing CT ships that the TLs are the same.  Also,
remember the change in TL11- ships.  Fusion isn't as good below TL12
now.

As a result, ships that might be good in CT at 200tons might need to
become 400tons, or might have to use older drive types to get along.

I just would be wary of expecting every low TL ship come out as small as
it used to.

Just an idea,

		Merrick

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:17:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

At 06:19 PM 6/18/96 -0500, you wrote:

>What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Once they can find it 
>multiple Meson Gun equiped capital ships could take out the DMG. This is 
>an interesting design problem. I'm not familiar with the FF&S rules but
>with the limitations imposed on meson guns by HG it would be easy to take 
>care of the DMG problem from orbit. Before the FF&S vs. HG flamewar 
>starts my point is that another Meson gun or group of orbital meson guns 
>could take out a planet bound DMG no matter where you hide it. 

This is true the problem is you've got to find the deepsite first.  The only
way in FF&S as in HG to take out a DMG is to Meson it from orbit or walk in
and take it by force.

>I'm curious as to the range of these DMG's though. Would it be on the 
>order of Earth -- Mars at closest approach. The reason I ask is because 
>that's where the DMG would be useful against terrorists hauling a rock to 
>try and destroy your mainworld.

Actaully I think the DMG was in reference to Starships using Ortillery on
the planet rather than against asteroids.  But given that the range of a MG
is based upon barrel lenght and diameter, and because in a DMS you don't
have to pay attention to any kind of size restrictions you could in theory
hit something way the heck out there unfortunately the targeting time lapse
would render it largely ineffective beyond several light minutes (the reason
I say minutes is an asteroid, unlike a starship, is completely incapable of
preforming any evasion or changing it's speed dramatically).  Theoretically
though I suppose this would work.

Any comments from everyone else?

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:20:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Symbols

At 04:38 PM 6/18/96 MS, you wrote:
>Had a general thought about symbols in the Year 0 Mileu.  I would suspect that 
>on many worlds the ruling families will trace some of their legitimacy to the 
>Rule of Man; grandpa 6 times removed was a Rule of Man governor, and his 
>grandpa 4 times back had been a Terran Confederation Navy Commander.  I would 
>suspect that many "Coats of Arms" or similar symbols would include some
part of 
>the UN logo motif used by the Terran Confederation; for example, a circle with 
>the olive branches on either side would serve as the basis of the symbol, like 
>a shield symbol is used on a Coat of Arms today.  This would become 
>increasingly important as the Syleans being to move outward and expand; using 
>symbols to recall the glory of the previous Empire, and in some measure claim 
>legitimate inheritance rights to it.

This I like.  I didn't realize that the Terran Confederation used the UN
symbol I knew the solomani used the gia symbol, circle with an +, and I
kinda felt that the use of the UN symbol would be in there somewhere but I
never knew.

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:28:14 -0700
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

At 01:07 AM 6/19/96 GMT, you wrote:

>GM: Hmm...thisis a law 'X' planet, both of those are illegal to cary
>here..*thinking* yes they'll bug the guy in the battle suit, but he can
>blow them away...
>
>PLAYERS: OH, ok, well we'll have to figure somehting else out then...
>{confers among themselves trying to find 'legal' weapons...}
>
>i about fell out of my chair.

Well son popsicle sticks are still legal on this planet.  If you sharpen
several pencils and use the popsicle sticks for defence you should not get
hassled by the locals.

PC's feel naked without handguns, I can't explain it.  They're paranoid
beyond belief.  If they don't have a Mark V Death Ray on their hips they
can't go to the bathroom.  Mind you Gm's have a habit of sicking well armed
thugs on them and perhaps thats something of our fault but still what's this
obsession with weapons.  The average PC's ships locker would make an arms
merchant drool.  I'm an offender on this account too, but I'm no where near
as bad as the guys I game with.

"Lets see it's tuesday, the sun is in neptune and the planet is in a
retrograde orbit around a blue sun.  I think I'll go with the shot gun for
this fellow, Caddy, my shotgun please."

DS


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:39:59 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Lurking lawyers...

        Rob Prior wrote:
>
>Now, rather than just a single numerical value (or several numerical values)
>describing severity, I'd be interested in an optional system to generate
>details about how the law works.  Eg., is it British common law, French Code
>Napoleon, Roman law, ...  Possibly a nice lawyer (we've got one here) could
>write a 2-3 page description of various legal codes?  (Hint, hint.)

        Great.  Another one.  There goes the neighbourhood :).  Let's not
forget stuff like Islamic and Hindu law, where the relevant religious texts
are the basis for the system, or systems like Nazi law, which was really
bizarre.  Friend of mine is doing his Phd on the denazification of the
justice system in one German state following WWII, and some of the things
he's told me about law under the Nazis are just bizarre...

        If you do wind up doing this, I'd highly recommend Rene David's _Les
Grands Systemes de Droit Contemporain_.  It's been translated.



   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   |-------------------------------------------------|
   | "An imperfect plan implemented immediately and  |
   |  violently will always succeed better than a    |
   |  perfect plan"                                  |
   |	             -Gen. George Patton             |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:40:05 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Corporations in Space...

        Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

>On 18 Jun 96 at 15:01, Roderick Darroch Elliott spewed:
>
>>         Getting back on topic, I've been wondering whether there are any
>> rules or background in Traveller regarding business associations.  I've been
>> thinking about throwing together a blurb on (very) basic corporate and
>> partnership entities, and private international (interplanetary?) law,
>> modified to fit Traveller.  I think it might provide some interesting
>> background/plot motors for the game.  If anyone's interested, I can put a
>> few hours in on it this weekend...
>> 
>
>I'm not aware of any, but that may not be saying all that much.  I'd 
>love to see what ideas you might have or contribute if you want some 
>thoughts...

        Well, you asked for it :).  I'll try and cobble something together.
What I was thinking of were some of the 19th C European corporate entites,
because a) they kind of fit the mercantile/empire mood, and b) they've got a
few interesting formalities that could, IMHO, make for plot or subplot
motors in adventures that are more mercantile or political in nature (share
transfer restrictions in a S.A.R.L. would be irrelevant to OrSPAMmery :>).




   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   |-------------------------------------------------|
   | "An imperfect plan implemented immediately and  |
   |  violently will always succeed better than a    |
   |  perfect plan"                                  |
   |	             -Gen. George Patton             |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:40:02 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Computer problems...

        Derek Stanley wrote:

>
>You know I thought of that but Mac are at least twice the price of an IBM
>Clone up here.  Sure ask him what he did to fix it.  I'm open to suggestions
>as long as they don't require Rattlesnake oil or self flaggulation. 8)
>

        Perform a simple calculation; number of hours installing and
configuring and troubleshooting * your hourly wage for a Mac and then for an
IBM.  Even at minimum wage your Mac will pay for itsself in no time flat :).
And if it was twice as much you weren't shopping in the right place. 

        My paternal unit says that he was having probs with Netscape under
W95, so he went and installed Microsoft Explorer, which turned out to be a
deadly bad move.  Then he reinstalled Netscape (after having to thoroughly
deinstall Explorer because those evil slimebags at Microsoft) and it seems
to be working.  Go figure.



   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   |-------------------------------------------------|
   | "An imperfect plan implemented immediately and  |
   |  violently will always succeed better than a    |
   |  perfect plan"                                  |
   |	             -Gen. George Patton             |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: James.Dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au
Date: 19 Jun 96 11:51:08 +0000
Subject: FFS Light - Conversions Available

     
        I have just downloaded and converted the FFS Light update 3 
     documents. I will make them available from my homepage 
     http://www.spirit.com.au/_jamesd. Look for a new link to appear there 
     this evening my time - I can't upload them from here :=|. 
     
        I have generated and ZIPped two formats - straight text, and RTF 
     format. The tables are VERY ugly in the text format, so I would 
     recommend the Rich Text Format as being more useful.
     
        If neither of these formats are of any use to you, email me 
     (preferably at this address) and I will try and do a conversion for 
     you. I may also be able to email to people IF there aren't too many. 
     If you can use the WWW version, please do.
     
     BFN,
     James Dempsey
     james.dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au
     jamesd@spirit.com.au

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:33:33 GMT
Subject: Re: Meson Beam Danger Zone

=> True.  Real pions would decay after passing through some matter (and
=> traveller ships are collapsed matter at high TLs, right?).  I'd think
=> that if you had to spend a reaonable fraction of your life near a
=> radiation source it's just a safety measure (the dose would be small,
=> but you'll get lots of doses---easier to move the landing area than pay
=> the medical bills later :-)

Hey!  Who you calling a peon?  Oh... pion... never mind....

------------------------------

From: johneshe@primenet.com (John E. Sherman)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:42:25 -0400
Subject: [none]

Unsubscribe

------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:42:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Done To Death: Rock Dropping.

 U know, I would consider it 'Done to Death' if we have come up with a
mutuallley acceptable resolution, unfortunatley we have not.

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:49:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Missing RC Ships

>From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu

>I was rereading Path of Tears, and I came up with a list of all the
>ships the RC has lost.  The Dawn Traders all have explanations to how

<...List Clipped...>
>
>Has anyone seen any other mention of these ship's fate, or made up
>their own.  I think the Ashtabula is of paticular interest, it played a

I think there was a mention of one or two of them in Smash & Grab.  I'll try to look it up in all my spare time :)

Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
      Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
      Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller

------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:05:32 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: legal systems...

        Daniel wrote:

>
>ARE YOU INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Asking a lawyer to write 2 or three pages is like asking a shark to 
>leave the woman and children alone!  Besides, the lawyer might actually
>do it than bill everyone on this list!

        Actually, given his drafting, I would argue that his offer is
gratituous, i.e. that he'd be doing it on a pro bono basis, and therefore
your fears about billing are groundless :).  And I, for one, tend to prefer
women over children so your simile is partly inaccurate :).

        That'll be a $1.50, if you please :).


>
>(Notice I didn't make any jokes on your use of the word 'nice' and 'lawyer'
>in the same sentence)
>
>Actually, I think it's a bit of a mistake to think that only a lawyer can
>come up with good information for legel systems in Traveller.  
>Our own legel system is based on president.  Some worlds might 
>base their legel system on logic, fairness, superstition, 
>movement of the stars or dictator whim.

        On the other hand, we could provide some useful general info on how
these legAl systems would work, and more importantly, how these might
manifest themselves in ways that could make interesting plot hooks or add
good background.  What I'm planning on doing over the weekend is something
on various corporate forms, soe of which, IMHO, would do exactly that.

>
>Laws don't even have to be based on a standard system.  For example, 
>in Wisconsin, it's against the law to eat cheese while driving!  
>

        Well, actually, Wisconsin's legal system is much the same as that of
most other American states; it's just this particular aspect of it that's
rather, er... whimsical :).



   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   |-------------------------------------------------|
   | "An imperfect plan implemented immediately and  |
   |  violently will always succeed better than a    |
   |  perfect plan"                                  |
   |	             -Gen. George Patton             |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:05:37 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Dragging corpses around...

        James Lindsay wrote:

>
>My players always ask why I consider obvious body armour worn in public to be
>such a big deal.  While I don't consider armour to be illegal, neither is
>dragging around a corpse in the local shopping mal (technically)

        Actually, in Canada, it'd be called "offering an indignity to a
corpse", and it'd be illegal.  In passing, I read this case where someone
tried to get off a charge of this by claiming that he actually thought,
during the commission of the offence, that he was committing sexual assault
and therefore didn't have the requisite intent.  Airsickness bags are to be
found under your seats, gentlemen...

        It didn't fly.

        back to topic...



   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   |-------------------------------------------------|
   | "An imperfect plan implemented immediately and  |
   |  violently will always succeed better than a    |
   |  perfect plan"                                  |
   |	             -Gen. George Patton             |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 00:17:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

Here's an interesting one. For the ISS (or ISIS, or whatever) "Imperial
Secret Service" - a pyramid with the eye in it. <g> 

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 00:31:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

On Tue, 18 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:
> At 06:19 PM 6/18/96 -0500, you wrote:
> >I'm curious as to the range of these DMG's though. Would it be on the 
> >order of Earth -- Mars at closest approach. The reason I ask is because 
> >that's where the DMG would be useful against terrorists hauling a rock to 
> >try and destroy your mainworld.
> 
> Actaully I think the DMG was in reference to Starships using Ortillery on
> the planet rather than against asteroids.  But given that the range of a MG

   This is correct. Most DMSes would be designed for conflict within about
   1 lightsec. (See below)

> is based upon barrel lenght and diameter, and because in a DMS you don't
> have to pay attention to any kind of size restrictions you could in theory
> hit something way the heck out there unfortunately the targeting time lapse
> would render it largely ineffective beyond several light minutes (the reason
> I say minutes is an asteroid, unlike a starship, is completely incapable of
> preforming any evasion or changing it's speed dramatically).  Theoretically
> though I suppose this would work.

   The big problem with this is blowing up the asteroid isn't good enough.
You have to TOTALLY VAPOURIZE the threat to make this work. Simply
fragmenting the asteroid is going to be worse because multiple small
impacts are worse than a single big impact (much like a shotgun blast is
DEADLY at short range) DMSes are totally useless against incoming
asteroids unless they are arriving at "normal" velocities.

   The best defence against a planet-wrecker rock is a ship, either by
intercepting and deflecting it, or doing the kamikaze with a ship/rock.

   One thing that the PDF might do is use nuke PAD missiles to vapourize
the rock, but this is risky on anything larger than about 100m.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #116
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 19 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 117

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Corporations in Space...
         2. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
         3. Re: law level & stuff
         4. 2-3 page description of various legal codes
         5. Imperial Heraldry
         6. Meson gun "tracks"
         7. Re: Imperial Heraldry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:40:50 -0800
Subject: Re: Corporations in Space...

On 19 Jun 96 at 9:40, Roderick Darroch Elliott spewed:

> 
>         Well, you asked for it :).  I'll try and cobble something together.
> What I was thinking of were some of the 19th C European corporate entites,
> because a) they kind of fit the mercantile/empire mood, and b) they've got a

Actually, you may want to think more 18th century.  By the 19th 
century, corporate entities were becoming a lot more centralized, and 
tightly structured.  I've always viewed the Megacorps as something 
like the Hudson Bay Company, or East India Company.  Given a virtual 
monopoly by the Emperor or representatives to exploit the resources of a 
particular sector or subsector or world.  Obviously, the East India 
Company could not micromanage the details of day to day operations in 
Bombay from London in the 18th century, but they could put Lord Such 
& Such, who they knew from their days together at Cambridge, at the 
head of the Bombay operation...  Labor organizations, and 
professional organizations would have the same sort of decentralized 
structure...

19th century companies (at least after the invention of the 
telegraph), began to develop bureaucratic structures patterned after 
the Prussian model.  A lot more tightly controlled than STL 
communications would allow.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:46:25 -0800
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

On 19 Jun 96 at 0:17, Larry Hadley spewed:

> 
> Here's an interesting one. For the ISS (or ISIS, or whatever) "Imperial
> Secret Service" - a pyramid with the eye in it. <g> 

OH, GREAT...
Just What IG didn't need to start the ball off right...
A lawsuit from Steve Jackson Games... (Illuminati)
To go with the 1 TSR gave to GDW...

;-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:46:25 -0800
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

On 18 Jun 96 at 18:28, derek stanley spewed:

> "Lets see it's tuesday, the sun is in neptune and the planet is in a
> retrograde orbit around a blue sun.  I think I'll go with the shot gun for
> this fellow, Caddy, my shotgun please."

ROTFL... :-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 00:21:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 2-3 page description of various legal codes

>>Now, rather than just a single numerical value (or several numerical values)
>>describing severity, I'd be interested in an optional system to generate
>>details about how the law works.  Eg., is it British common law, French Code
>>Napoleon, Roman law, ...  Possibly a nice lawyer (we've got one here) could
>>write a 2-3 page description of various legal codes?  (Hint, hint.)

Two to three pages of an overview of Vilani law, with reference to how
player characters would most likely experience it?  Of Terran law (which
mixed civil law and common law concepts as needed to accomplish UNSCA
internal objectives) as imported into the Rule of Man, then into the Third
Imperium? and as implemented in the Solomani sphere?   This could be kind of
fun, but it sounds more like a series of short articles.  Maybe I could get
continuing legal education credit.

What aspects of the law do you want to know about the most?  commercial?
contract? intellectual property? criminal? judicial procedure?

>ARE YOU INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Asking a lawyer to write 2 or three pages is like asking a shark to leave
the woman and >children alone!  Besides, the lawyer might actually do it
than bill everyone on this >list!

Such a bill would probably not be enforceable as a matter of law (no
contract having been formed).  As practical matter, finding all of the real
names and reporting them to TRW would cost more (in attorney time) than it
would be worth.  Forget about finding real addresses and attempting to sue
people located all over the planet on a small claim.  

>Actually, I think it's a bit of a mistake to think that only a lawyer can
>come up with good information for legel systems in Traveller.  

I agree.

>Our own legel system is based on president.  

No, it's based on precedent.  Precedent is a value held by our culture.  It
indicates that we base our legal (and much other) decision-making on what
has gone before.  The appeal to authority is the key rhetorical paradigm in
this system.

>Some worlds might base their legel system on logic

Logic is just a tool, like mathematics.  A legal system has to be based on
values. 

>fairness, 

This is certainly a stated component of every legal system, because the
perception of fairness is crucial to legitimacy.

>superstition, movement of the stars 

Now you're talking!  There are a lot of good role-playing opportunities here.

>or dictator whim.

In practice, it's hard for a dictator to retain power without the form of
law.  Every dictator that I can think of -- and that's a large number -- has
gone through the motions of legitimizing his (they're all men) actions on
legal grounds, even when the rest of the people know it's a charade.

In my games, I usually treat legal specifics -- like whether you need a
notary's approval before a contract can be enforceable, as is the case under
most civil, but not common, law systems -- as transparent, unless there is a
specific need for more development.

To the extent that the list would consider it helpful to have overviews of
existing and historical legal systems, I'd be happy to provide them, time
permitting.  I'm not really a comparative law scholar (although lately I'm
becoming more of one, as I do more international transactions, and less
litigation), but I can read and summarize, and I need to do so anyway.

- --Glenn M. Goffin, Esq.


------------------------------

From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 18 Jun 96 21:20:36 EDT
Subject: Imperial Heraldry

Paul writes:
>A shield.  The top 1/4 divided into three sections, white, red,
>white.  The first section shows a red sun(the Imperial Sunburst), the second
>a white moon, and the third a red star(six pointed).  The bottom 3/4 is gold
>and has no image or symbol at all.  Over time this symbol evolved into just
>the three sectioned bar, and eventually just the sunburst.  (The colors
>could either evolve, or stay the same.)  (And to think, I used to know how
>to write this the way a herald would).
   I'm not sure you can split a chief like that. Better to switch it around 
like this:
A white shield with a red vertical bar, a Sunburst, crescent and star of six 
points
across the middle in opposite colours. A gold stripe across the top.
Or, roughly translated into herald:
"Argent, a pale gules. A sunbrust, crescent and star of six points fesswise
counterchanged, a cheif or."

>On a stary backdrop, a pale moon (light from above and behind
>viewer) with blue letters D&D in "3-D" extending from a point at the top of
>the moon to the center of the moon.
Translation:
Sable a semi of stars, a crescent argent, chared with D&D azure.
[All this 3D stuff is artistic lisence :-]

Or nearly.
  Anyone else interested in SF heraldry? I was designing a costume entry
for a SF mercenary brigade and much of the work was based on heraldic
charges brought forward. I've a database now of SF charges for
shields.
  I've been meaning to write it up and put it on the web. There are a number
of "open questions" for strict heraldic interpreation. For example what
colour is an "asteroid proper"?

I'll leave you with the arms of "The Drachenwald Space Lancers":

A gold shield, Three red rocketships in the middle with a black
dragon on top of them, one claw raised, tail curved between the
legs and back out again. Two black comets curved around
each side.

Cheers,
Jo

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 00:07:52 PST
Subject: Meson gun "tracks"

Ok, the basic premise of the meson gun is that you accelerate the
mesons to a speed such that they will be at the target point when they
decay. 

In real life, the time that they decay is a "half-life". In other
words, half of the mesons will have decayed by that time, the other
half will decay in a longer period.

The math is rather interesting though. 25% of the particles will decay
in 50% of the half-life. That means that 25% of the particles in the
beam will decay before they get halfway to the target! Likewise, 25%
will decay in *more* than twice the half-life. Thus another 25% of the
particles will decay at more than twice the range to target.

It's possible to calculate more closely, but it's late, and I don't
feel like doing all the math. But it does become rather obvious that
whatever meson guns are shooting, it is rather abnormal to start with. 

Perhaps damper technology lets them reduce the "spread" in the
halflife?


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:30:26 +1000
Subject: Re: Imperial Heraldry

Here are some ideas for symbology :

1, The Grand Survey : A gold Starburst on a blue oval.
(A field of stars exploding from a central spot in the middle, 
representing Sylea)

2. The Imperal Senate : Imperial Gold Sunburst with a sword and fascii 
(sp) crossed underneath, purple background.
The Sword could be a Vilani sword, and the Fascii represents Terra, 
showing the past , an the Sunburst the future. Purple being the old Roman 
Patrician colour.

3. Office of Calender Compliance : A Silver hourglass imposed on an 
Imprerial Sunburst. Else a Villani immage (Maybe a sundial?)

4. Chandler Construction Corp (a company that constructs starbases and 
instalations for the Imperium). A Brown Mountian with Blue CCC emblazed 
on it, being struck by gold lightning bolt. The immage is on a black circle.

5. Imperial Marines : A rising Sunburst, with crossed sword and starship 
(Only half of the traditional Sunburst, like the Aussie Rising Sun)


>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #117
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 19 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 118

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #117
         2. Re: law level & stuff
         3. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
         4. Re: QSDS Ships Galore part 2, with Questions
         5. Re: Corporations in Space...
         6. QSDS: Conveyor Class Auxilliary Carrier
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #116
         8. Re: QSDS Ships Galore part 2, with Questions
         9. Re: More QSDS designs
        10. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
        11. RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 
        12. Re: QSDS Ships Galore part 2, with Questions
        13. RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 
        14. Re: More QSDS designs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 16:07:46 +0200
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #117

>Logic is just a tool, like mathematics.  A legal system has to be based on
>values.

Greg Bear uses something called legal logic in "Moving Mars" which is a
formal system for reasoning judicial matters, used with quantum logic
computers of course.
There have been attempts at formalizing law into a logical system of
non-boolean logic in reality but those attempts have failed.

/Backman



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 07:13:52 -0700
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

At 11:46 PM 6/19/96 -0800, you wrote:
>On 18 Jun 96 at 18:28, derek stanley spewed:
>
>> "Lets see it's tuesday, the sun is in neptune and the planet is in a
>> retrograde orbit around a blue sun.  I think I'll go with the shot gun for
>> this fellow, Caddy, my shotgun please."
>
>ROTFL... :-)

Bless you.  Would you like a hankie? 8)

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 07:16:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

At 11:46 PM 6/19/96 -0800, you wrote:
>On 19 Jun 96 at 0:17, Larry Hadley spewed:
>
>> 
>> Here's an interesting one. For the ISS (or ISIS, or whatever) "Imperial
>> Secret Service" - a pyramid with the eye in it. <g> 
>
>OH, GREAT...
>Just What IG didn't need to start the ball off right...
>A lawsuit from Steve Jackson Games... (Illuminati)
>To go with the 1 TSR gave to GDW...

I don't know as Jackson could sue you over the use of a acronim if the
original word are different.  And if you did found and Illuminati society he
couldn't sue you anyways because there really was and Illuminati back in the
20's.  New York I beleive.

DS


------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:18:21 -0400
Subject: Re: QSDS Ships Galore part 2, with Questions

At 01:48 PM 6/18/96 MS, Steve Charlton wrote:
>As Rob Miracle has noted, the economics are somewhat out of kilter here, but I 
>am not as concerned about this as Rob is, since it seems to me that we could 
>solve this by increasing the standard prices for tickets and hauled cargo.
And 
>the Free Trader carries only 6 High Passengers after all, according to The 
>Traveller Book (p64).  I don't have access just now to the old 3-book set to 
>see if that was a change, or what.

I am concerned for one very major reason:  We don't have any insite into the
game itself, except that it is to be CT updated for the 90's.  Trade has
been the same in every release of the game, save speculative trading.  The
core costs for fuel, passage and such have remained unchanged, and we can't
assume that Marc has changed the core game to fit ship building.

This goes beyond economics.  If the weapons are not compatible with the
combat system (which has in someways been addressed) then it won't work.  It
seems as if we have been creating a ship design system in the dark with
regards to the basic rules and we expect the rules to conform to our design
system.  Well, reality here, the design system has to fit the rules.

>I am still VERY concerned with the crew figures (which contributes to the 
>economics problems).  In vessels with large power plants, the Engineering Crew 
>becomes huge.  Look at the Mercenary Cruiser, for example.  If there is going 
>to be a crew adjustment, I would start with this area.  I still think a 
>TL-based or computer-based crew modifier could be added onto the existing QSDS 
>rules without disrupting the work Guy has already done.

Crew figures are very high.  They are supposedly that way because of lack of
automation etc.  But if you look at every Sci-Fi anything, ships have
considerably smaller crews than is presented by FF&S (L/QSDS).  Even in Star
Trek, they were working on automation that would let a crew of two run a
400,000T ship.  The real world models that were discussed in baseing the
crew configurations on was based on military vessels.  Commerical Air liners
are crewed by very small crews.  But we arn't talking today we are talking
the future.

Look at "Foundation".  Look at any "invaders from Mars" type movies, even ET
only had a few crew members and most of them were probably
passangers/scientists.  Engineers just plain are not needed on non-military
vessels.  All other vessels, visit a starport every week.  If things need
fixed or maintained it is done then.  I think that one engineer per 500T of
hull would be much more realistic.  Under 500T, engineering duties are
handled by the  flight deck crew, ah la Hans and Chewy.  500T to 999T You
need an engineer etc.
Now for military vessels, the FF&S based crews are not bad.  They go on long
manuvers and may not see a port every week.  SDB's can be hiding in gas
giants for a long time and would need more on-board personel to deal with
problems, where as Oberline's is going to maximize space for passangers and
cargo, and have their facilities do maintenence while the vessel is in port.

>Overall Comparison Trivia (QSDS vs CT)
>Ship            Crew     Cargo    Cost 
>Scout           1/1      18/3     49/29 
>Free Trader     7/4      73/82    51/37
>Sub. Merchant   12/5     271/200  78/101
>Sub. Liner      14/9     105/129  82/236
>Merc. Cruiser   59/8     19/80    424/445
>Patrol Cruiser  29/10    12/50    285/221
>Lab Ship        19/5     11/23    211/158
>Yacht           9/4      10/11    66/51
>Safari Ship     14/5     10/6     71/81

There is a real inconsistancy here between the vessels in cost.  The Free
Trader is much more expensive while the Sub Merchant is much less.  And the
sub. merchant is supposed to be "subsidized" because its soooo expensive.
No none would need to subsidize the merchant because it will pay for itself,
but would need the subsidy on the free trader.

How did the sub. liner workout to be 1/4th the cost?  Most are within about
20Mcr (of course that is a 40% +/- swing on some ships)?

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:19:22 -0800
Subject: Re: Corporations in Space...

On 19 Jun 96 at 23:40, Stuart L. Dollar spewed:

> On 19 Jun 96 at 9:40, Roderick Darroch Elliott spewed:
> 
> > 
> >         Well, you asked for it :).  I'll try and cobble something together.
> > What I was thinking of were some of the 19th C European corporate entites,
> > because a) they kind of fit the mercantile/empire mood, and b) they've got a
> 
> Actually, you may want to think more 18th century.  By the 19th 
> century, corporate entities were becoming a lot more centralized, and 
> tightly structured.  I've always viewed the Megacorps as something 
> like the Hudson Bay Company, or East India Company.  Given a virtual 
> monopoly by the Emperor or representatives to exploit the resources of a 
> particular sector or subsector or world.  Obviously, the East India Company 
> could not micromanage the details of day to day operations in 
> Bombay from London in the 18th century, but they could put Lord Such 
> & Such, who they knew from their days together at Cambridge, at the 
> head of the Bombay operation...  Labor organizations, and 
> professional organizations would have the same sort of decentralized 
> structure...

1 other thought.  On worlds with extreme law levels, labor 
organizations are likely to be illegal, and might operate as the core 
of local revolutionary movements.  Professional Organizations, if legal, 
would be closely watched...as would companies for signs of dissidents 
or opposition to the government. 

> 19th century companies (at least after the invention of the 
> telegraph), began to develop bureaucratic structures patterned after 
> the Prussian model.  A lot more tightly controlled than STL 
> communications would allow.
> 
> Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:32:11 +0200
Subject: QSDS: Conveyor Class Auxilliary Carrier

     OK, here's another QSDS design.  This one is intended to be a hasty 
     re-fit of a reasonably well armed civilian cargo ship turning it into 
     a small carrier.  I imagine this might have been produced by a small, 
     slightly desperate navy in a time of need.
     
     This is actually a ship I started designing about a year ago with 
     FF&S, but eventually gave up.  I was delighted to finish it in about 
     an hour and a half using QSDS.  Top marks to the QSDS designers.
     
     I figured 2 crew for each fighter (1 "ground" crew + the actual 
     pilot).  I imagine the extra accomodation over the original being 
     provided in a large "portakabin" type affair parked in the cargo bay.
     
     Again, comments are welcome.
     
     Cheers,
     Liam
     
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk
     
     
     
CONVEYOR CLASS AUXILIARY CARRIER
     
Tons         3000          Volume      42000          Cost (Mcr     358 
Crew          120          Marines         8          Low Berth       0 
Cargo         200          Controls Fib/Bridge        TL             12
     
       9 Size Rating                       2 Jump Rating
       4 Fire Control Rating               2 G Rating / Thrusters
      10 Laser Turrets :   2-0-0-0       0.9 Power Plant Rating
                                         607 Fuel Rating
                                           0 Meson Screen Rating
                                          10 Sand Caster Rating (300)
                                           0 Damper Rating
                                             A2 P3 J0
     
                                    10 Armour         23 Structure
     
Notes:
Close Structure, unstreamlined
Advanced Commo
Spacious Hanger for 30 t Ship's Boat 
Spacious hanger for 32 10t Fighters
     
Crew Details:
Engineering: 10, Electronics: 1, Maneuver: 2, Gunnery: 20, Command: 17, 
Marines: 8, Smallcraft: 67
     
Mission:
The Conveyor is a hastily re-fitted Atlantic class cargo transport.  It 
is designed to provide extra fighter support in fleet actions.  Note 
that it always operates with escorts to shield it from enemy ships.
     
     
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Worksheet:
     
                     Volume Power  Cost   Area   Crew   Notes  #
HULL: 300T, Close Str -2860  820.3  123.9  -6938                 3000 
Max G = 2, Armour = 10,
Structure = 23
     
JUMP DRIVE: J2           60            18     20    0.2             2 
Fuel: J2                600
     
THRUSTER PLATES: 2G     108    108     27     22    0.1             2
     
AVIONICS: Military      3.4    2.5   18.2    0.3      0
     
SENSORS: Improved       0.3   12.6    7.4     13    0.3 A2 P3 J0
     
COMMS: Advanced           0   21.5      2    203    0.8
     
WEAPONS
10 X Mil Lasers          53    298    121    270     10 2-0-0-0    10
     
DEFENSE
10 X Sandcasters         30     10      8    100     10 30 voll    10
     
2 X Vehicle Shop         20      2      4      0      0             2 
Engineering Shop          6    0.6      1      0      0
Sick Bay                  8    0.8      5      0      0
     
Spacious Hanger: 30 t   120      0    0.4     85      3 ships boat
32 X Spac. Hanger: 10  1280      0    6.4   1568     64 Fighter    32
     
POWER PLANT            46.4  -1300    130   1300    9.6 
Fuel                      7
     
50 X Workstation         25      0    0.1      0      0            50 
Bridge                   20      0      0      0      0            40
     
1 X Large Stateroom       4  0.001    0.1      0      0
128 X Small Stateroom   254 0.0635   5.08      0      0           127
     
     
CARGO                   200
     
     
TOTAL:                -14.5 -23.64 477.58  -3357
                                   358.19
     
CREW:                Actual        Approx 
Engineering              10           9.9 
Electronics               1           1.1 
Maneuver                  2
Gunnery                  20            20 
Screens                   0
Small Craft              67            67 
Troops                    8
Command                  17        16.667 
Stewards                  2
Medical                   1
Total Crew (without t   120
Total Crew              128
Workstations             50
     

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:32:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #116

>From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>

>>I'm curious as to the range of these DMG's though. Would it be on the 
>>order of Earth -- Mars at closest approach. The reason I ask is because 
>>that's where the DMG would be useful against terrorists hauling a rock to 
>>try and destroy your mainworld.
>
>Actaully I think the DMG was in reference to Starships using Ortillery on
>the planet rather than against asteroids.  But given that the range of a MG
>is based upon barrel lenght and diameter, and because in a DMS you don't
>have to pay attention to any kind of size restrictions you could in theory
>hit something way the heck out there unfortunately the targeting time lapse

I know nothing about the physics, or supposed physics of Mesons, but if
their range is based on barrel length and diameter, wouldn't you have to
allow a deep site to have a barrel that could be rotated to face any
direction.  This would sorta put a limit on how big it could actually be, right?


>From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>

>   The big problem with this is blowing up the asteroid isn't good enough.
>You have to TOTALLY VAPOURIZE the threat to make this work. Simply
>fragmenting the asteroid is going to be worse because multiple small
>impacts are worse than a single big impact (much like a shotgun blast is
>DEADLY at short range) DMSes are totally useless against incoming
>asteroids unless they are arriving at "normal" velocities.
>
>   The best defence against a planet-wrecker rock is a ship, either by
>intercepting and deflecting it, or doing the kamikaze with a ship/rock.
>
>   One thing that the PDF might do is use nuke PAD missiles to vapourize
>the rock, but this is risky on anything larger than about 100m.
>

Again, I know nothing about this either, I'm not into all that physics and
math calculations, but I would think that an accurately placed explosion
would possibly shift the asteroid's course enough to make it miss the
planet.  I seem to remember seeing a movie about this.  I think it was
called Asteroid, or Meteor, or something like that.  I think my parents have
it on video, so I'll try to watch it soon to see what all occurred.
Basically, the only thing I remember from the movie is that bothe the US and
Russia had nuc's in space targeted at each other, and the big stigma was the
trust that had to be created because both sets of missiles were necessary to
create the explosion necessary to shift the asteroid's path.  Well, I
remember that both sides agreed to turn their weapons around and target the
asteroid.  The nuc's hit, but I don't remember if that was enough or if
something else happened to move the asteroid.  Of course, in the end, the
Asteroid was moved enough and the earth was saved.

Anyway, the whole point of that discourse was to say that I was curious
about what you guys thought about using an explosion, either missile or DMS,
to change the course of a planet killer?


Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
      Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
      Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 10:37:47 -0400
Subject: Re: QSDS Ships Galore part 2, with Questions

Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM> wrote:
> This goes beyond economics.  If the weapons are not compatible with the
> combat system (which has in someways been addressed) then it won't work.

We've seen the basic starship combat system, and the design systems
will work with the combat system; I'm not as concerned about this (although
I would have liked to have more time for playtesting).

> There is a real inconsistancy here between the vessels in cost.  The Free
> Trader is much more expensive while the Sub Merchant is much less.  And the
> sub. merchant is supposed to be "subsidized" because its soooo expensive.
> No none would need to subsidize the merchant because it will pay for itself,
> but would need the subsidy on the free trader.
> 
> How did the sub. liner workout to be 1/4th the cost?  Most are within about
> 20Mcr (of course that is a 40% +/- swing on some ships)?

This has to do with the change in the basis for the design system.  In
Classic Traveller, the "big ticket" items were the drives.  In FF&S, the
most expensive components on the ship are the sensors and avionics.  These
tend to stay the same for all of the commercial starships (at TL-12 it costs
about MCr 16 for these items).  This makes the cost of a "minimum" starship
relatively high.

The cost of the hull and drives are (together) about half the total
cost of the ship; therefore larger ships are cheaper (per ton) than small
ones.  That's why the cost of the free trader has gone up, but the
subsidized merchant has gone down.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   "Dreams do not vanish, so long as people do
                                    not abandon them."  --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:54:37 -0800
Subject: Re: More QSDS designs

On 18 Jun 96 at 18:15, Bruce Johnson spewed:

> 
> 	Rob Miracle mentioned that, without spec cargoes, the QSDS far
> trader couldn't pay for itself.  He's right, but more of an
> indication that the economics rules are broken than anything else.

No, this is more of an indication that the ship design rules for QSDS 
are a product of FF&S which focused on lower tech, less automated 
ships with higher crew sizes due to fears of Virus...

Rob might want to remember though that even the Book 2 version of the 
Far Trader was not economically viable as a freight hauler.  Even the 
Book 2 version needed to speculate in order to survive.

> 
> 	The 'Crewmember as employee' paradigm that's used probably wouldn't
> apply to a small trader like that.  A major transport corp could

Actually, if owned by another company (not 1 of the PC's) it almost 
certainly would fit that paradigm.  The captain might take shares of 
profits as a bonus, but the gunners, for example, are almost 
certainly going to be salary.

> well afford the Far Trader, because they'll get an even steeper
> discount on the ships due to volume purchase.  A Ford escort is
> cheap, but it's even cheaper when you buy five or six thousand of
> them, like a big rental company.

How much do you know about the rental car business...  Until about 6 
months ago, I used to work in it.  The deep discounts that used to exist in that 
business don't exist anymore...haven't for 5 years now.  Yes, rental 
companies can buy for cheaper than you or I, but not by as 
much as they used to.  The automakers found they were undercutting 
sales by their dealers, when they sold at breakeven to rental 
companies.  What was happening is the rental car companies would 
resell the cars at the end of the lease period for cheaper than the 
dealers could pay for them.  If you're using the rental car business as a 
paradigm, the 20% discount for volume, as provided in Traveller, 
is generous, if anything.

Of course, the rental companies don't buy the cars anyways.  They 
lease them for about 6-9 months, and then sell them back to the 
dealers (usually at 100% credit).  In essence what the rental company 
does is rent the cars themselves for about 6-9 months...  Basically, 
using rental companies is a bad example...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:02:22 -0800
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

On 19 Jun 96 at 7:16, derek stanley spewed:

> At 11:46 PM 6/19/96 -0800, you wrote:
> >On 19 Jun 96 at 0:17, Larry Hadley spewed:
> >
> >> 
> >> Here's an interesting one. For the ISS (or ISIS, or whatever) "Imperial
> >> Secret Service" - a pyramid with the eye in it. <g> 
> >
> >OH, GREAT...
> >Just What IG didn't need to start the ball off right...
> >A lawsuit from Steve Jackson Games... (Illuminati)
> >To go with the 1 TSR gave to GDW...
> 
> I don't know as Jackson could sue you over the use of a acronim if the
> original word are different.  And if you did found and Illuminati society he

Not the acronym, the symbol, a pyramid with an eye on it.  
Besides which, I was trying to be tongue in cheek about it... ;-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:13:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 

In Reply to Your Message of Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17: 09:01 PDT
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:13:13 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: A few ideas that popped into my head...
: 
: IMPERIAL INTERSTELLAR SCOUT SERVICE:
: 
: A triangle, point up.  from the two bottom corners of the triangel, arching
: up to about 1/4 the height, is a view of a blue-green planet (picture the
: view from the space shuttle).  Near the top, about the 2/3rds height line,
: is a sunbirst in red.  The rest of the field is black, with white/silver
: stars added.  The whole thing is surronded by a red border

But doesn't the IISS have it's own symbol already?  It should be that
little six-legged Sylean creature running in front of the Sunburst.
Now, if I remember correctly, the IISS grew out of the SISS (Sylean
ISS).  My guess would be that maybe the SISS symbol could involve the
herbivore across the starfield idea that you gave.  Then when it
became the IISS, they could put the herbivore on top of the Sunburst
(a tribute to their beginning as SISS and incorporate their new
identity). 

Also, didn't Cleon I come up with the idea of the Sunburst, or was it
one of his decendents?  Another thing to keep in mind.  If we plan on
not invalidating too many prior Traveller writings, then we should
keep in mind that the Sunburst's ONLY color was red.  This did
change around 400 (I think) when an Empress declared that the Sunburst
would have no official color from then on (this was due to the fact that
some IR seeing species couldn't even see the Sunburst).

Just stiring things up.  8)

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:22:57 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: QSDS Ships Galore part 2, with Questions

 
> >Overall Comparison Trivia (QSDS vs CT)
> >Free Trader     7/4      73/82    51/37

HGFreeTrader	---	141tons cargo	55.2MCr

I didn't do the crew, but I just did the HG design (In about 5 minutes,
BTW).  HG design isn't anything like B2, and it costs more than both
systems (really close to QSDS, though)

> There is a real inconsistancy here between the vessels in cost.  The Free
> Trader is much more expensive while the Sub Merchant is much less.  And the
> sub. merchant is supposed to be "subsidized" because its soooo expensive.
> No none would need to subsidize the merchant because it will pay for itself,
> but would need the subsidy on the free trader.

This'll be true in HG as well.  20 tons minimum for bridge, so below
1000tons, bigger ships get a break (but all are "punished."

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:23:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 

In Reply to Your Message of Wed, 19 Jun 1996 07: 16:05 PDT
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:23:25 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: At 11:46 PM 6/19/96 -0800, you wrote:
: >On 19 Jun 96 at 0:17, Larry Hadley spewed:
: >
: >> 
: >> Here's an interesting one. For the ISS (or ISIS, or whatever) "Imperial
: >> Secret Service" - a pyramid with the eye in it. <g> 
: >
: >OH, GREAT...
: >Just What IG didn't need to start the ball off right...
: >A lawsuit from Steve Jackson Games... (Illuminati)
: >To go with the 1 TSR gave to GDW...
: 
: I don't know as Jackson could sue you over the use of a acronim if the
: original word are different.  And if you did found and Illuminati society he
: couldn't sue you anyways because there really was and Illuminati back in the
: 20's.  New York I beleive.

No, acutally he could sue.  If I remeber correctly this was one of the
reasons for the falling out between SJG and WW (White Wolf).  In their
2ed of Mage, WW had the Illuminati all over the book.  SJG told them
to remove the image.  SJG had to in order to protect their copyright
on the item.  While it may not have been created by SJG, the
eye-on-the-pyramid is copyrighted by SJG.  I think that this allows it
to use the symbol exclusively for gaming purposes (so they can't sue
the US gov't for putting the symbol on a dollar bill).

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:27:27 -0400
Subject: Re: More QSDS designs

At 07:54 AM 6/20/96 -0800, Stu wrote:
>On 18 Jun 96 at 18:15, Bruce Johnson spewed:
>> 	Rob Miracle mentioned that, without spec cargoes, the QSDS far
>> trader couldn't pay for itself.  He's right, but more of an
>> indication that the economics rules are broken than anything else.
>
>No, this is more of an indication that the ship design rules for QSDS 
>are a product of FF&S which focused on lower tech, less automated 
>ships with higher crew sizes due to fears of Virus...

Then is it still applicable for T4?  There is no fear of Virus....

>
>Rob might want to remember though that even the Book 2 version of the 
>Far Trader was not economically viable as a freight hauler.  Even the 
>Book 2 version needed to speculate in order to survive.

They needed to speculate because there was not always full cargo or passangers
available.  If one could have a 100% full load, they could survive in book
2.  The presented free trader is impossible to make it.


- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #118
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 19 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 119

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Navigational Deflectors as a Limitation on Thruster Tech
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #116
         3. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
         4. RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 
         5. Crew Sizes
         6. RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 
         7. Re: More QSDS designs
         8. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
         9. RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 
        10. Explosive decompression
        11. RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 
        12. Dropped rocks redux
        13. DMSes and Rocks
        14. Re: Explosive decompression...not
        15. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
        16. Missing RC Ships
        17. Symbols of Earth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:33:08 +0900
Subject: Navigational Deflectors as a Limitation on Thruster Tech

>>Hmm. This brings up another point. Since Traveller starships have no magic 
force fields, perhaps this is a reasonable way to limit reactionless 
thrusters? Radiation poisoning could ruin your whole day, and it doesn't 
take that much V to get a nasty sunburn from particle collisions.

How about lowering the tech level for repulsors used as navigational 
deflectors, and requiring ships to have these in order to avoid damage from 
micrometeor particles, etc. in space.  The power of your deflector would 
impose a safe speed limit, and the designers of the game could control 
deflector power levels to get the desired speed limits at each tech level. 
 This might please those of us who want to reduce the great speeds possible 
with thrusters.

Anyway, I think it's unrealistic that there is no mention of how fast one 
can go without having to deal with these hazards, and no mention of what is 
done to deal with them.

Armand


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:27:40 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #116

At 09:32 AM 6/19/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>

>I know nothing about the physics, or supposed physics of Mesons, but if
>their range is based on barrel length and diameter, wouldn't you have to
>allow a deep site to have a barrel that could be rotated to face any
>direction.  This would sorta put a limit on how big it could actually be,
right?

Potentially.  The length of the barrel can be no longer than the diameter of
the sphere it is incased it, stands to reason.  However, with the advent of
grav technology it is possible to create, however unlikely, a DMG with a
barrel lenght of kilimeters and kilometers long, assuming you have access to
enought power to keep both the gun and the contra grav units opperating.
This means because the effects of gravity have been nulified on the barrel
it's really nothing more than suspended mass with no actual weight, the
barrel won't flex so you have no upper limit on how long the barrel could be.

Coupled with the fact that on a planet you have an unlimited amount of space
from which to draw power or put in a power plant, you could quite literally
have this thing firing on a personal combat scale time frame, once every 5
seconds.  This would further reduce your difficulty mods.  Yeouch this is
getting nastier every moment the more thought you put into it.  Planetary
meason guns could quite literally in the space of a half hour crank out 360
shots for every 30 minute space combat term.  With the advent of MAV's, see
Regency Combat Vehical Guide PG40, you could also supplement the fire
capabilities of the DMS to such a point that attacking a TL15 planet with a
DMS would be next to suicide.

I don't want to think about the possibilities if the planet had a battallion
of Intrepids for MAV fire support.  We're talking total carnage.

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:30:40 -0700
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

At 08:02 AM 6/20/96 -0800, you wrote:
>On 19 Jun 96 at 7:16, derek stanley spewed:
>
>> At 11:46 PM 6/19/96 -0800, you wrote:
>> >On 19 Jun 96 at 0:17, Larry Hadley spewed:
>> >
>> >> 
>> >> Here's an interesting one. For the ISS (or ISIS, or whatever) "Imperial
>> >> Secret Service" - a pyramid with the eye in it. <g> 
>> >
>> >OH, GREAT...
>> >Just What IG didn't need to start the ball off right...
>> >A lawsuit from Steve Jackson Games... (Illuminati)
>> >To go with the 1 TSR gave to GDW...
>> 
>> I don't know as Jackson could sue you over the use of a acronim if the
>> original word are different.  And if you did found and Illuminati society he
>
>Not the acronym, the symbol, a pyramid with an eye on it.  
>Besides which, I was trying to be tongue in cheek about it... ;-)

Possibly I think the symbol is pretty ancient too.  But ya considering GDW's
troubles with the Evil Empire, the last thing IG needs to do is tic off
someone with big lawyers.

DS


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:37:46 -0800
Subject: RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 

On 19 Jun 96 at 11:13, That Computer Guy spewed:

> 
> But doesn't the IISS have it's own symbol already?  It should be that
> little six-legged Sylean creature running in front of the Sunburst.

Correct...

> one of his decendents?  Another thing to keep in mind.  If we plan on
> not invalidating too many prior Traveller writings, then we should
> keep in mind that the Sunburst's ONLY color was red.  This did

Wrong...

I quote from the Imperial Encyclopedia, MegaTraveller: Listing under 
Imperial Sunburst.

"The symbol of the Third Imperium established by Cleon (the first 
emperor) when the empire was proclaimed.  Images show him standing 
before the original banner with a GOLDEN YELLOW sunburst against a 
BLACK background, representing Capital's type G star against dark 
space."

The emphasis on color names in the above is mine.

The original sunburst was yellow with a black backdrop.  Later, when the 
Eliyoh were admitted to the Imperium, they were unable to distinguish 
between yellow & black (their visual range was mainly centered in the 
infrared).  Therefore, Porfiria declared the symbol to have no official colors.

Again to quote from the Encyclopedia,
"The original banner in the Imperial throne room is still black with 
a yellow sunburst.  The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service uses a 
red sunburst; the Imperial Navy, yellow, the Imperial Army black; the 
Imperial Marines, maroon."

Red is not, and never has been the only color of the Imperial 
Sunburst.  If any 1 color can lay that claim, it is yellow.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:37:40 -0400
Subject: Crew Sizes

Someone else pointed out that for a Free and Far Trader lots of people
would just double-up on jobs.  I agree.  Remember that these people
are working hard at eeking out a living.

For example:

Free Trader Crew (MT)           Free Trader Crew (QSDS)
Bridge=1                        Pilot=2
Engineering=1                   Electronics=1
Medical=1                       Engineer=1
Steward=1                       Medical=1
                                Steward=1

So that's 4 vs 6.  However, I'm still waiting for a ruling on this
one, but I used the automation multiplier on the pilot (I wasn't clear
on whether I could or couldn't).  That brings it down to 5 crew
members.  Somebody said that they got 7.  Was that including Gunnery
personel or did I mess up somewhere?

Now, electronics.  Unless this is a military vessel, this is not a
position that needs to be filled all the time.  Unlike Star Trek,
anyone other than a token minority or an alien with a bad head job can
open hailing frequencies.

So, on a vessel that flies cargo on the "main runs" wouldn't need a
dedicated electronics officer.  More than likely the steward could do
it.

However, this does mean that once weapons are added and you start
moving around speculative freight, then your necessary crew will begin
to increase.  While your steward may be able to man on of the guns,
your good ship's doctor may be able to run the electronics console.

I think that we should remember that free traders don't have the
luxury of a full compliment.  We should start thinking of them more as
small business people scraping along rather than thinking of them as
small underpowered fighting ships.

        --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:51:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 

In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08: 37:46 -0800
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:51:19 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: On 19 Jun 96 at 11:13, That Computer Guy spewed:
: 
: Red is not, and never has been the only color of the Imperial 
: Sunburst.  If any 1 color can lay that claim, it is yellow.

You're right.  I made a boo-boo.  8)

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:56:00 -0800
Subject: Re: More QSDS designs

On 19 Jun 96 at 11:27, Rob Miracle spewed:

> >No, this is more of an indication that the ship design rules for QSDS 
> >are a product of FF&S which focused on lower tech, less automated 
> >ships with higher crew sizes due to fears of Virus...
> 
> Then is it still applicable for T4?  There is no fear of Virus....

No, I agree with you. Although you could make a case for it being 
true of the Milieu 0 theme, which is about TL 11-12.  Keep in mind 
that Book 2 really didn't take TL into account.

What IG really needs to make sure of is that the ship design rules 
mesh with the economic rules, so that one isn't out of kilter with 
the other.  If this means tweaking the costs of shipping freight or 
high passages, so be it.

> They needed to speculate because there was not always full cargo or passangers
> available.  If one could have a 100% full load, they could survive in book
> 2.  The presented free trader is impossible to make it.

Actually, the Far Trader, as first presented in Supplement 7, is very 
specifically noted as being unviable without speculation.

The Free Trader was, but not the J-2 version.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:00:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> On 19 Jun 96 at 0:17, Larry Hadley spewed:
> > Here's an interesting one. For the ISS (or ISIS, or whatever) "Imperial
> > Secret Service" - a pyramid with the eye in it. <g> 
> 
> OH, GREAT...
> Just What IG didn't need to start the ball off right...
> A lawsuit from Steve Jackson Games... (Illuminati)
> To go with the 1 TSR gave to GDW...
> 
> ;-)

   Actually, I think if they really wanted to use that, and asked
permission, I don't the SJ would mind.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:02:22 -0700
Subject: RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 

At 11:23 AM 6/19/96 -0400, you wrote:
>In Reply to Your Message of Wed, 19 Jun 1996 07: 16:05 PDT
>Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:23:25 -0400
>From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>
>
>: At 11:46 PM 6/19/96 -0800, you wrote:
>: >On 19 Jun 96 at 0:17, Larry Hadley spewed:
>: >
>: >> 
>: >> Here's an interesting one. For the ISS (or ISIS, or whatever) "Imperial
>: >> Secret Service" - a pyramid with the eye in it. <g> 
>: >
>: >OH, GREAT...
>: >Just What IG didn't need to start the ball off right...
>: >A lawsuit from Steve Jackson Games... (Illuminati)
>: >To go with the 1 TSR gave to GDW...
>: 
>: I don't know as Jackson could sue you over the use of a acronim if the
>: original word are different.  And if you did found and Illuminati society he
>: couldn't sue you anyways because there really was and Illuminati back in the
>: 20's.  New York I beleive.
>
>No, acutally he could sue.  If I remeber correctly this was one of the
>reasons for the falling out between SJG and WW (White Wolf).  In their
>2ed of Mage, WW had the Illuminati all over the book.  SJG told them
>to remove the image.  SJG had to in order to protect their copyright
>on the item.  While it may not have been created by SJG, the
>eye-on-the-pyramid is copyrighted by SJG.  I think that this allows it
>to use the symbol exclusively for gaming purposes (so they can't sue
>the US gov't for putting the symbol on a dollar bill).

A stand, or rather sit behind my keyboard, corrected.  I've never been very
big on law.  I have noticed a disturbing trend towards sueing someone's
pants off though.

I have seen the symbol in the Disney Cartoon Gargoyles, I get to watch about
five minutes before heading off to work.  Eye and Pyramid tattooed on the
back of some old guy's hand.  Lets face it though no one messes with Disney
and gets away with it.

DS


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:07:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Explosive decompression

DS writes: 
> I have a friend who would argue with you on the effect of explosive
> decompression, mind you he'd argue with just about anyone on any topic,
> it's just the kind of guy he is.  However, seeing as we have never first
> hand experienced the effects of ED all of this is just theory.  I would
> imagine NASA has done some work on it though. 

We do have hard experimental data on explosive decompression.  During the
60s, NASA did tests on dogs involving pressure changes, including the
rapid 1 atm to vacuum case, in order to better understand how astronauts
might fare in the same circumstances.  They particularly wanted to find
out if a human, suddenly exposed to vacuum, would have time to take a
quick corrective action -- hitting a button, putting on a mask, whatever
- -- before passing out or dying.  They found that, as expected, dogs
subjected to ED neither exploded, instantly died, nor instantly passed
out.  NASA concluded from these tests that there would be a 30 to 60
second window of full consciousness and mobility before unconsciousness,
then another three to five minutes before brain death due to anoxia --
just as in any other interrupted-breathing scenario.  The only unique
short-term effects of vacuum as opposed to smothering or drowning are
ruptured capillaries in the eyes, nasal tissues, and (possibly) parts of
the skin, none of which are serious enough to get in the way much. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:13:36 -0800
Subject: RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 

On 19 Jun 96 at 11:51, That Computer Guy spewed:

> In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08: 37:46 -0800
> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:51:19 -0400
> From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>
> 
> : On 19 Jun 96 at 11:13, That Computer Guy spewed:
> : 
> : Red is not, and never has been the only color of the Imperial 
> : Sunburst.  If any 1 color can lay that claim, it is yellow.
> 
> You're right.  I made a boo-boo.  8)

Actually, I wasn't so worried about what you said.  It's just that 
everybody was proposing all these early Imperial symbol designs with 
tons of red in them, and I knew there was something wrong, but I 
couldn't place what it was.

If we're going by previous canon (unless Marc wishes to invalidate 
it), the featured color for most early Imperial symbology should 
include lots of yellow...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:16:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dropped rocks redux

lhadley writes: (re: accelerating an Oort object into the mainworld)
> Nitpick here: How do they "farm" for fuel when they're travelling at
> fractional-cee velocities? I toyed with the idea for a while and concluded
> that it would be impractical to push, decellerate, grab some fuel,
> accelerate, push, etc. (repeat as necessary) This would give diminishing
> returns VERY quickly.  A dedicated fueling fleet perhaps?  Man, you better
> assume this is a Black Op - no terrorist group is going to have this kind
> of wherewithal without MAJOR support. 

You're missing the whole beauty of this scheme!  What are Oort/Kuiper 
objects made out of?  Ices!  Water and methane, mostly, which are 2/3 and 
3/4 hydrogen by atom count, respectively.  Your fuel source and weapon 
are *the same object*!  It's like Asimov's "The Martian Way," minus the 
soft-landing at the end. :)  Hot Fudge Tuesday, anyone?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:19:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: DMSes and Rocks

On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
> >From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
> I know nothing about the physics, or supposed physics of Mesons, but if
> their range is based on barrel length and diameter, wouldn't you have to
> allow a deep site to have a barrel that could be rotated to face any
> direction.  This would sorta put a limit on how big it could actually be, 
> right?

   Nope. Think "planet".

> >From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
> 
> >   The big problem with this is blowing up the asteroid isn't good enough.
> >You have to TOTALLY VAPOURIZE the threat to make this work. Simply
> >fragmenting the asteroid is going to be worse because multiple small
> >impacts are worse than a single big impact (much like a shotgun blast is
> >DEADLY at short range) DMSes are totally useless against incoming
> >asteroids unless they are arriving at "normal" velocities.
> >
> >   The best defence against a planet-wrecker rock is a ship, either by
> >intercepting and deflecting it, or doing the kamikaze with a ship/rock.
> >
> >   One thing that the PDF might do is use nuke PAD missiles to vapourize
> >the rock, but this is risky on anything larger than about 100m.
> >
> 
> Again, I know nothing about this either, I'm not into all that physics and
> math calculations, but I would think that an accurately placed explosion
> would possibly shift the asteroid's course enough to make it miss the
> planet.  I seem to remember seeing a movie about this.  I think it was
> called Asteroid, or Meteor, or something like that.  I think my parents have

> Anyway, the whole point of that discourse was to say that I was curious
> about what you guys thought about using an explosion, either missile or DMS,
> to change the course of a planet killer?

     It is a possibility, but are you willing to risk fragmenting the
rock? If the rock is a solid nickel-iron slug, sure you could try but what
if the rock is a fractional-cee weapon? 

     If the "rock" is actually a carbonaceous chondrite with a
heterogenous makeup, all bets are off - this thing'll fragment at the drop
of a hat.


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:07:33 MST7
Subject: Re: Explosive decompression...not

Derek says:
> From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
> At 12:53 PM 6/18/96 MST7, you wrote:
> 

> >	A ship that rapidly, even explosively vents it's air isn't going to 
> >have ripped panels or any suchlike. It's ONLY a 14 psi difference 
> >here! Loose paper's gonna blow around a lot, and whatever caused the 
> >decompression coould easily rip panels around and stuff, but hell, a 
> >balloon will hold up against a 14 psi difference easily. 
> 
> Is that all the difference is, 14 psi?  Didn't know that.

Unless you're running your ship at > 1 Atmosphere of pressure, yes, 
the air pressure insuide the ship is ~ 14 psi. 

> 
>  >eardrum, and you'll be good for 30-90 seconds or so without passing 
> >out.
> 
> I would imagine it can't be terribly good on your eyes either.  

	oops, oh yeah, you have to keep your eyes shut, or risk serious 
corneal damage.
 
> 
> I would imagine the extent of the damage done to the interior of the vessel
> would vary tremendously depending upon the volume of the ship, how much of
> it was exposed to vacuum and whether your iris valves worked properly, one
> would hope they do.

	Notice, I was describing just damage from the decompression. If 
your vessel isn't made of rice paper and bamboo, the bulkheads, just 
to stand up under their own weight at 1 G, are going to be strong 
enough to withstand the kinds of pressure differential you'll get from from a 
decompression incident.
 
Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:08:56 -0800
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

On 19 Jun 96 at 12:00, Larry Hadley spewed:

>    Actually, I think if they really wanted to use that, and asked
> permission, I don't the SJ would mind.
> 

Only Steve Jackson and co. could answer this for sure, but since this 
is his company's trademark, I THINK HE'D MIND VERY MUCH!  
Companies (or at least smart ones, anyways) will usually go to ANY 
legal length to defend their trademarks, product names, etc...

Hell, TSR took GDW to court and won, and this was just because a 
designer took some work home with him, and had a competitor publish 
it.  Imagine if he'd tried to slap the AD&D trademark on it...

I'll put it this way.  If I were IG, I'd steer about a million miles 
clear of somebody else's trademarks, particularly a direct 
competitor.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 13:14:56 -0400
Subject: Missing RC Ships

>I think there was a mention of one or two of them in Smash & Grab. 
I'll try to >look it up in all my spare time :)

The first adventure in Smash & Grab mentions the Horus or Helios, I
believe, but in Challenge they say that is a typo, and it should be the Brilliant.  
Lewis

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 19 Jun 96  9:55:15 MS
Subject: Symbols of Earth

Derek Stanly wrote:

>This I like.  I didn't realize that the Terran Confederation used the UN
>symbol I knew the solomani used the gia symbol, circle with an +, and I
>kinda felt that the use of the UN symbol would be in there somewhere but I
>never knew.

Yeah, the GDW Solomani sourcebook showed the Terran Confederation symbol, which 
was a slightly-modified UN symbol (which made snese, as the Terran 
Confederation apparently grew out of the UN.

STeve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com
scharlto@rtd.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #119
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 19 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 120

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Exploding minky
         2. Legal Weapons & armour
         3. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
         4. Re: Imperial Heraldry
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #118
         6. Re: Explosive decompression
         7. Re: Explosive decompression...not
         8. Re: Missing RC Ships
         9. Re: DMSes and Rocks
        10. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium 
        11. Re: Symbols of Earth
        12. Re: Exploding minky
        13. Re: Legal Weapons & armour
        14. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #116
        15. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #114
        16. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
        17. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #116
        18. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #116
        19. RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 19 Jun 96 13:59:16 EDT
Subject: Exploding minky

>> However, seeing as we have never first hand experienced the effects of ED all
of this is just theory.  I would imagine NASA has done some work on it though.
<<

I understand they did something really, really tasteless like sending chimps up
in rockets and pulling the plug out. Somebody quoted the existence of the report
on here about a year ago; I never, ever want to have to read it...


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 19 Jun 96 13:59:19 EDT
Subject: Legal Weapons & armour

>> And a person in obvious Body Armor is probably carrying a weapon somewhere.
Although it's a great thing to base an adventure around. <<

Plus - I've said it before and I'll say it again - comabt armour and battledress
_are_ weapons! Especially BD. Punch someone with a cerametal glove (say
"knuckleduster") three times harder than you normally could (some gearhead care
to work out the impact?) and he's gone, buddy!

HWF


------------------------------

From: Nick Gibbins <gibbins@cpd.ntc.nokia.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:11:21 +0100
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:13:14 -0400 (EDT)

> > IMPERIAL INTERSTELLAR SCOUT SERVICE:

> > A triangle, point up. 
> > [...description deleted...]

> But doesn't the IISS have it's own symbol already?  It should be
> that little six-legged Sylean creature running in front of the
> Sunburst.

That symbol belongs specifically to the Xboat service of the IISS; the
eight-legged equine-like beast on the symbol is a 'ponii'(sp?), which
I believe is native to Vland. The use of this animal on the symbol
arose from a member of the newly-formed IISS reading about the Pony
Express from C20th Terra (which bears some similarity to the Xboat
network), and guessing that pony and ponii were one and the same.

I don't remember the background of the symbol being a sunburst, but I
could be mistaken. 

I also can't remember exactly which book these trivial snippets were
mentioned in, but I'd hazard a guess and say either Grand
Survey/Census or World Builders'.

> Also, didn't Cleon I come up with the idea of the Sunburst, or
> was it one of his decendents?  Another thing to keep in mind.  If
> we plan on not invalidating too many prior Traveller writings,
> then we should keep in mind that the Sunburst's ONLY color was
> red.

I'm not sure if this is true; I think that the different branches of
the Imperial military use different colours. Again, I can't give a
source for this, but it could well have been the Travellers' Digest.

My, but I'm in a trivial mood today... :)
- --
Nick Gibbins                                       gibbins@cpd.ntc.nokia.com
     (He was) a genial and pleasant gentleman, whom to meet anywhere in
   your travels was to know, to know was to drink with, and to drink with
 was, unfortunately, to pay for. - Thomas Hardy, Far From the Madding Crowd

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:10:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Imperial Heraldry

>From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
>Subject: Imperial Heraldry
>
>Paul writes:
>>A shield.  The top 1/4 divided into three sections, white, red,
>>white.  The first section shows a red sun(the Imperial Sunburst), the second
>>a white moon, and the third a red star(six pointed).  The bottom 3/4 is gold
>>and has no image or symbol at all.  Over time this symbol evolved into just
>>the three sectioned bar, and eventually just the sunburst.  (The colors
>>could either evolve, or stay the same.)  (And to think, I used to know how
>>to write this the way a herald would).
>   I'm not sure you can split a chief like that.

I know I've seen it before, but I think it was a product of late heraldry.
If we're talking about Imperial Heraldry, we can change the "official"
heraldic rules to suit our purpose.


> Better to switch it around 
>like this:
>A white shield with a red vertical bar, a Sunburst, crescent and star of six 
>points
>across the middle in opposite colours. A gold stripe across the top.

Course, I like this too!  :)


>Or, roughly translated into herald:
>"Argent, a pale gules. A sunbrust, crescent and star of six points fesswise
>counterchanged, a cheif or."

Ooooh.  Sends a chill up my spine when you say it that way.  Heraldry was a
passion of mine when I was in high school.  (I even had plans to try to get
official permission to start an American College of Heraldry!)  But as most
high school passions, it died when college, wife, job, and kids came along.
It is a joy to hear(read) a heraldic charge once again.  I'm gonna have to
dig out my old books!! :)

>
>>On a stary backdrop, a pale moon (light from above and behind
>>viewer) with blue letters D&D in "3-D" extending from a point at the top of
>>the moon to the center of the moon.
>Translation:
>Sable a semi of stars, a crescent argent, chared with D&D azure.
>[All this 3D stuff is artistic lisence :-]

I guess I should have been a bit more clear, I had intended the moon to be
full (a circle).  Great translation though.

>
>Or nearly.
>  Anyone else interested in SF heraldry? I was designing a costume entry
>for a SF mercenary brigade and much of the work was based on heraldic
>charges brought forward. I've a database now of SF charges for
>shields.
>  I've been meaning to write it up and put it on the web. There are a number
>of "open questions" for strict heraldic interpreation. For example what
>colour is an "asteroid proper"?

I'd love to talk to you about SF Heraldry.  I would immagine that the
Imperium, with all the nobles and stuff, would be big on heraldry.  That was
my original reason for the shield.  Personally, I would make the "asteroid
proper" or, while a "full moon proper would be argent (silver?).  Comets
would be or with tails and suns could be a number of colours.


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:10:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #118

>From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
>Subject: RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 

>Also, didn't Cleon I come up with the idea of the Sunburst, or was it
>one of his decendents?  Another thing to keep in mind.  If we plan on
>not invalidating too many prior Traveller writings, then we should
>keep in mind that the Sunburst's ONLY color was red.  This did
>change around 400 (I think) when an Empress declared that the Sunburst
>would have no official color from then on (this was due to the fact that
>some IR seeing species couldn't even see the Sunburst).

I thought I remembered reading somewhere that the sunbutst was ONLY red.
Now that you mention it, I think it is listed in the MT SMART Library
listing on the Imperial sunburst.  I remember because of the issue with the
IR seeing races.

>
>Just stiring things up.  8)

Don't we all, always?!? :)


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:46:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Explosive decompression

At 09:07 AM 6/19/96 -0700, you wrote:

>We do have hard experimental data on explosive decompression.  During the
>60s, NASA did tests on dogs involving pressure changes, including the
>rapid 1 atm to vacuum case, in order to better understand how astronauts
>might fare in the same circumstances.  They particularly wanted to find
>out if a human, suddenly exposed to vacuum, would have time to take a
>quick corrective action -- hitting a button, putting on a mask, whatever
>-- before passing out or dying.  They found that, as expected, dogs
>subjected to ED neither exploded, instantly died, nor instantly passed
>out.  NASA concluded from these tests that there would be a 30 to 60
>second window of full consciousness and mobility before unconsciousness,
>then another three to five minutes before brain death due to anoxia --
>just as in any other interrupted-breathing scenario.  The only unique
>short-term effects of vacuum as opposed to smothering or drowning are
>ruptured capillaries in the eyes, nasal tissues, and (possibly) parts of
>the skin, none of which are serious enough to get in the way much. 

This is the information I wanted to see.  Its amazing how much information
there is at our fingertips, if we don't know something there's always
someone on the net who does and is more than willing to tell you.

Not to serious to get in the way much but you'll look like hell for a couple
of weeks afterwords.  I kinda figured NASA would have done work on this
subject, it's kinda like launching ship and not knowing whether the life
rafts work.

Thank you for the information.

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:03:26 -0700
Subject: Re: Explosive decompression...not

At 10:07 AM 6/19/96 MST7, you wrote:

>Unless you're running your ship at > 1 Atmosphere of pressure, yes, 
>the air pressure insuide the ship is ~ 14 psi. 

That only stands to reason.  Imagine a ship from a high G world with 4 or 5
atms.

>	oops, oh yeah, you have to keep your eyes shut, or risk serious 
>corneal damage.
>
>	Notice, I was describing just damage from the decompression. If 
>your vessel isn't made of rice paper and bamboo, the bulkheads, just 
>to stand up under their own weight at 1 G, are going to be strong 
>enough to withstand the kinds of pressure differential you'll get from from a 
>decompression incident.

So you're saying I should avoid the ancient Japanise starships at all costs. 8)
True, true.  It's just not as impressive.  I looked at that picture again
and read some of the stuff, guy at the hobby shop was not impressed 8), the
ship was not only ED but it was also impacted by several high velosity,
10,000+ mps KEP warheads.  Thus explaining the majority of the damage.
 
DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:05:46 -0700
Subject: Re: Missing RC Ships

At 01:14 PM 6/19/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>I think there was a mention of one or two of them in Smash & Grab. 
>I'll try to >look it up in all my spare time :)
>
>The first adventure in Smash & Grab mentions the Horus or Helios, I
>believe, but in Challenge they say that is a typo, and it should be the
Brilliant.  
>
Unfortunately they are part of the orginal 12 so we still have no idea what
happens to the others.  Suggestions anyone?

DS


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:09:57 -0500
Subject: Re: DMSes and Rocks

>From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
>Subject: DMSes and Rocks
>
>On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
>
>> I know nothing about the physics, or supposed physics of Mesons, but if
>> their range is based on barrel length and diameter, wouldn't you have to
>> allow a deep site to have a barrel that could be rotated to face any
>> direction.  This would sorta put a limit on how big it could actually be, 
>> right?
>
>   Nope. Think "planet".

Right, that's my thoughts.  Maybe I'm not understanding the concept of
mesons correctly, but isn't the idea similar to a bullet in that it
accelerates down the barrel and when it exits the barrel it goes in a
straight line.  Mesons can't change directions once they leave the barrel,
can they?  If they can't, then the only way to have a useable DMS built into
a planet is to have either a moveable barrel or be able to change the
rotation and axial tilt of your planet.
Am I making sense yet?


>
>> Anyway, the whole point of that discourse was to say that I was curious
>> about what you guys thought about using an explosion, either missile or DMS,
>> to change the course of a planet killer?
>
>     It is a possibility, but are you willing to risk fragmenting the
>rock? If the rock is a solid nickel-iron slug, sure you could try but what
>if the rock is a fractional-cee weapon? 
>
>     If the "rock" is actually a carbonaceous chondrite with a
>heterogenous makeup, all bets are off - this thing'll fragment at the drop
>of a hat.
>

I have no idea what you just said! ;)  (I'm just a lowly purchasing clerk
for goodness sake!! :)  I'll just take your word for it that some
asteroids/planets are made up of material that would fragment very easily,
and that a terrorist would be aware that a proper rock selection is imperative!!

BTW, I missed the beginning of this debate, how would said terrorist go
about getting the "rock" headed in the right direction?


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:09:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium 

>
>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:13:36 -0800
>Subject: RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 
>
>On 19 Jun 96 at 11:51, That Computer Guy spewed:
>
>> In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08: 37:46 -0800
>> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:51:19 -0400
>> From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>
>> 
>> : On 19 Jun 96 at 11:13, That Computer Guy spewed:
>> : 
>> : Red is not, and never has been the only color of the Imperial 
>> : Sunburst.  If any 1 color can lay that claim, it is yellow.
>> 
>> You're right.  I made a boo-boo.  8)
>
>Actually, I wasn't so worried about what you said.  It's just that 
>everybody was proposing all these early Imperial symbol designs with 
>tons of red in them, and I knew there was something wrong, but I 
>couldn't place what it was.
>
>If we're going by previous canon (unless Marc wishes to invalidate 
>it), the featured color for most early Imperial symbology should 
>include lots of yellow...
>

I think the red came in from the use of a red sunburst by IG.  Will MM be
changing the "canon?"  Will the Imperial Sunburst be red or yellow?  Stay
tuned nest week for another exciting episode or Traveller the Mailing List.


Does anyone with a fast Web browser know if IG used the sunburst in any of
the pictures they have other than in their emblem?


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:09:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Symbols of Earth

At 09:55 AM 6/19/96 MS, you wrote:
>Derek Stanly wrote:
>
>>This I like.  I didn't realize that the Terran Confederation used the UN
>>symbol I knew the solomani used the gia symbol, circle with an +, and I
>>kinda felt that the use of the UN symbol would be in there somewhere but I
>>never knew.
>
>Yeah, the GDW Solomani sourcebook showed the Terran Confederation symbol,
which 
>was a slightly-modified UN symbol (which made snese, as the Terran 
>Confederation apparently grew out of the UN.

It kinda bites that in Traveller we Solomani are the only people who have no
redeaming qualities.  We're racists, homo supremists, and openly agressive.
I wonder who put those qualities in the UN charter?  8)

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:10:55 -0700
Subject: Re: Exploding minky

At 01:59 PM 6/19/96 EDT, you wrote:
>>> However, seeing as we have never first hand experienced the effects of
ED all
>of this is just theory.  I would imagine NASA has done some work on it though.
><<
>
>I understand they did something really, really tasteless like sending chimps up
>in rockets and pulling the plug out. Somebody quoted the existence of the
report
>on here about a year ago; I never, ever want to have to read it...

Yummm... 8P

Pardon me but is that your Minky?

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:12:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Legal Weapons & armour

At 01:59 PM 6/19/96 EDT, you wrote:
>>> And a person in obvious Body Armor is probably carrying a weapon somewhere.
>Although it's a great thing to base an adventure around. <<
>
>Plus - I've said it before and I'll say it again - comabt armour and
battledress
>_are_ weapons! Especially BD. Punch someone with a cerametal glove (say
>"knuckleduster") three times harder than you normally could (some gearhead care
>to work out the impact?) and he's gone, buddy!

I'll bet you Tyson's last opponent wished he had battle dress on. 8)

Ya I'm of the opinion that battle dress is one of those "Military Only"
pieces of equipment.  It's to dangerous to let get into the hands of Joe Public.

DS


------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:16:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #116

>PC's feel naked without handguns, I can't explain it.  They're paranoid

In my current campaign my players have a different problem.  Aside from
a simple body pistol they normally ignor more powerful weapons.  In my 
game body pistols are almost undetectable so they can be slipped past
all but full body searches.  But then my players are more interested in
less violent adventures.

- -Daniel







------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:16:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #114

>>	A ship that rapidly, even explosively vents it's air isn't going to 
>>have ripped panels or any suchlike. It's ONLY a 14 psi difference 
>>here! Loose paper's gonna blow around a lot, and whatever caused the 
>>decompression coould easily rip panels around and stuff, but hell, a 
>>balloon will hold up against a 14 psi difference easily. 
>
>Is that all the difference is, 14 psi?  Didn't know that.

14 psi is for standard atmosphere, what would the effects be for
beings living in atmosphere type 8 or 9?  Or for that matter, what
of beings who come from the atmosphere of large gas giants.  

Or what about a free trader being holed while refueling in the 
atmosphere of a gas giant.

I would be interested in seeing what rules others are using in
these types of situations.

- -Daniel








------------------------------

From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:23:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

Jerry Alexandratos <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu> wrote:

>But doesn't the IISS have it's own symbol already?  It should be that
>little six-legged Sylean creature running in front of the Sunburst.

That symbol was instituted with the xboat service after the Civil War.
Who knows if the IISS inherits anything from the SFSS.

>Also, didn't Cleon I come up with the idea of the Sunburst, or was it
>one of his decendents?  Another thing to keep in mind.  If we plan on

Cleon I.  One reference states "holographs still extant from the early
years of the Imperium show the banner in the Imperial throne room to
have a yellow sunburst on black, presumably to indicate Sylea's G2 star
agains the black of space."  The symbol was declared to have no official
color in 247.  The "modern" IISS (1100s) uses a red sunburst on their
facilities and vehicles, the marines maroon.  The IN still uses yellow.
Imperialized Army units use black.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:43:58 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #116

At 03:16 PM 6/19/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>PC's feel naked without handguns, I can't explain it.  They're paranoid
>
>In my current campaign my players have a different problem.  Aside from
>a simple body pistol they normally ignor more powerful weapons.  In my 
>game body pistols are almost undetectable so they can be slipped past
>all but full body searches.  But then my players are more interested in
>less violent adventures.
>
I tend to prefer less violent adventures, but there's a point that we all
reach when we know who did it, but we also know that there's no way our
character should know, and you just can find those last two pieces to the
puzzle, after two or three hours of this it's enough to turn a saint into rambo.

One of my player's, first words out of his mouth every time are.  "We get to
shoot at something today don't we?  I need to kill."  It's kind of
disturbing, mind you he's a self-employed adrenaline junkie, if you can
think of a sport that is highly lethal he's involved in it.  He always wears
a t-shirt to my place.

"It's not a sport unless you can die from massive internal injuries.  Skydive."

DS


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 21:47 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #116

In-Reply-To: <199606190433.AAA15659@NS.MPGN.COM>

Deep Meson Sites: you can make quite a good scenario out of dealing with
these. In my campaign, set before and during the Rebellion, the PCs were
SolSec agents, and I sent them in to take out the guns protecting the Luna
Naval Base, prior to the invasion of Terra. I was amazed at how successful
they were (and even more amazed that they all survived (just)).


                      --------=====OOO=====--------
Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:52:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 

In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09: 13:36 -0800
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:52:09 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: On 19 Jun 96 at 11:51, That Computer Guy spewed:
: 
: > In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08: 37:46 -0800
: > Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:51:19 -0400
: > From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>
: > 
: > : On 19 Jun 96 at 11:13, That Computer Guy spewed:
: > : 
: > : Red is not, and never has been the only color of the Imperial 
: > : Sunburst.  If any 1 color can lay that claim, it is yellow.
: > 
: > You're right.  I made a boo-boo.  8)
: 
: Actually, I wasn't so worried about what you said.  It's just that 
: everybody was proposing all these early Imperial symbol designs with 
: tons of red in them, and I knew there was something wrong, but I 
: couldn't place what it was.
: 
: If we're going by previous canon (unless Marc wishes to invalidate 
: it), the featured color for most early Imperial symbology should 
: include lots of yellow...

That's what I was trying to point out.  I saw lots of colors (mostly
gold and red).  Unfortunately, I should type what I mean and not what
I'm thinking.

As for invalidating "canon."  I'd say we shouldn't.  If for nothing
else than it's a neat story about how the color change came about.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #120
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 19 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 121

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. 50t Cutter/FFSLite
         2. Re: DMSes and Rocks
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #117
         4. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
         5. Re: DMSes and Rocks
         6. QSDS v1.1 Available!
         7. Re: Legal Weapons & armour
         8. Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)
         9. Re: DMSes and Rocks
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #118
        11. Re: 50t Cutter/FFSLite
        12. The Myth of Neutrino Sensors
        13. Somebody screwed up
        14. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
        15. Re: DMSes and Rocks
        16. Fwd: Namegen program

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:08:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 50t Cutter/FFSLite

 
I'm working on new ship using FF&S, it's a customs/patrol
clipper (guess :) and one of the things I'm going to do is
fit it with a 50t Cutter, with an assortment of different
modules available.
 
Has anyone designed any modules for this? (FF&S, FFSL, or QSDS)
 
FFS or FFSL preferred.
 
Comments:
 
I tried out FFSL the other night and noticed something, the
toughness factor of the hull material seems to be omitted from
the hull calculations.
 
Anyone else notice this?

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 



------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:09:59 GMT
Subject: Re: DMSes and Rocks

I'm not sure where I saw it but in my universe, planetary Deep Meson Sites are
constructed as a VERY LARGE sphere (possibly a kilometre or more in diameter),
enclosing the weapon, crew, fire control, neutrino sensor, meson screen, and
powerplant.  This sphere is designed to rotate 360 degrees on all three axis.
Since matter is virtually invisible to mesons, the sphere could rotate and fire
downwards (towards the core of the planet) to hit targets on the far side.

------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:10:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #117

>>Our own legel system is based on president.  
>
>No, it's based on precedent.  Precedent is a value held by our culture.  It

Sorry, just goes to show the poor quality of our education system.  I ment
'precedent' but badly misspelled it.

But precedent is not a value, it's a method.




>>Some worlds might base their legel system on logic
>
>Logic is just a tool, like mathematics.  A legal system has to be based on
>values. 

Why?  A legal system can be based on outcome.  It can be based on maintaining
power by some ruling family.  It can be imposed by outside forces.  In it's
purest form laws are coercion, a way to try and force others to behave
in a mannor other desire.

In the case of eating cheese while driving in Wisconsin, what value is that law
based on?





>This is certainly a stated component of every legal system, because the
>perception of fairness is crucial to legitimacy.

Why?  Leitimacy is what is commanly accepted.  If it's commanly held
(and accepted) that social standing determains how the legel 
system treats you, than fairness has nothing to do with it.



>In practice, it's hard for a dictator to retain power without the form of
>law.  Every dictator that I can think of -- and that's a large number -- has

The law could be that the dictators whim is law!



- -Daniel



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:16:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> On 19 Jun 96 at 12:00, Larry Hadley spewed:
> 
> >    Actually, I think if they really wanted to use that, and asked
> > permission, I don't the SJ would mind.
> 
> Only Steve Jackson and co. could answer this for sure, but since this 
> is his company's trademark, I THINK HE'D MIND VERY MUCH!  
> Companies (or at least smart ones, anyways) will usually go to ANY 
> legal length to defend their trademarks, product names, etc...
  
  The key words here are "...and asked permission" as long as IG
ackowledges SJG's copyright and _asks_, there should be no problem.

  Of course, we'll never know unless MM and IG really want this bad enough
_to_ ask. (I ain't holding my breath)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:25:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: DMSes and Rocks

On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> >From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
> >On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
> >
> >   Nope. Think "planet".
> 
> Right, that's my thoughts.  Maybe I'm not understanding the concept of
> mesons correctly, but isn't the idea similar to a bullet in that it
> accelerates down the barrel and when it exits the barrel it goes in a
> straight line.  Mesons can't change directions once they leave the barrel,
> can they?  If they can't, then the only way to have a useable DMS built into
> a planet is to have either a moveable barrel or be able to change the
> rotation and axial tilt of your planet.
> Am I making sense yet?

   DMSes are large facilities (much larger than the majority of smaller
starships) that have HUGE meson guns in them, not too mention extensive
maintenance and C/C facilities for coordinating military activity. It is
likely there won't be more than a few of these monsters *in* ;-) any but
the heaviest populated planets.

   Since MGs aren't really "popular" before grav tech becomes available,
it's likely the whole assembly is floated/stiffened with a CG field,
allowing truly massive structures to be assembled in a gravity well. I'd
put such a gun in a large spherical chamber (evacuated).

> >     It is a possibility, but are you willing to risk fragmenting the
> >rock? If the rock is a solid nickel-iron slug, sure you could try but what
> >if the rock is a fractional-cee weapon? 

   I mention frac-cee weapons because they are much harder to deflect with
a blast...

> >     If the "rock" is actually a carbonaceous chondrite with a
> >heterogenous makeup, all bets are off - this thing'll fragment at the drop
> >of a hat.

   Ice/methane, interesting stuff like that with rock chunks in it.

> BTW, I missed the beginning of this debate, how would said terrorist go
> about getting the "rock" headed in the right direction?

   Basically, poke the nose of your ship into the asteroid, and light the
engines. ;-)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 17:12:27 -0400
Subject: QSDS v1.1 Available!

OK, everyone ... the (hopefully) final version of the Quick Ship Design
System (QSDS) is available.  This is version 1.1 and if I've tracked the
updates correctly it should be identical to the one that will be printed
in the new Traveller basic rule book.  You can get QSDS from by web site:

	http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/qsds/

I've got Microsoft Word 6 and plain ASCII versions available (the ASCII
version is also viewable by most web browsers).

For those of you who have already designed ships using QSDS, there are a
number of changes from earlier versions, and you'll need to re-calculate
your designs.  The changes primarily affect crew size (which should now
be back down to Classic Traveller levels), and minor typo fixes.

Also with respect to crew size, I'd like to draw everyone's attention
to the paragraph on "Small Ships and Combined Jobs".  In addition to
combining fractional crew requirements (into, for example, a
engineer/sensor/communicator crewperson), there are special exceptions for
small ships.

In particular all ships 100 tons and smaller can be operated in routine
circumstances by 1 crewmember (no matter what the crew calculation says),
and all shps 200 tons and smaller may be operated in routine circumstances
by 2 crewmembers (again, no matter what the crew calculation says).

Also, don't forget that when all is done with QSDS, you can take a 25%
discount (multiply the final price by 0.75) because of the standardized
construction.  This should help the economic aspects of small trade
starships considerably (a MCr 36 QSDS ship actually costs MCr 27).

Finally, I note that there's been some discussion on what the two "Maneuver"
crew are for.  I'm sorry it wasn't explained well, but here's the deal: you
need one, a Pilot, if there's a maneuver drive installed.  You need another,
the Navigator, if there's a jump drive installed.  Thus, a ship with both a
maneuver drive and a jump drive needs a Pilot and a Navigator (Astrogator).

I'll be happy to answer other questions about ship design; and I'm putting
together a Frequently Asked Questions list that I'll also put up on by Web
site at some point.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:27:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Legal Weapons & armour

 

On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:
> 
> Ya I'm of the opinion that battle dress is one of those "Military Only"
> pieces of equipment.  It's to dangerous to let get into the hands of Joe Public.

  I think that's specifically stated in both CT and MT.


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:35:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)

Thus spake Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>:

> At 10:47 AM 6/16/96 -0700, Steve Charlton wrote:

[QSDS Free Trader stats snipped]

[Rob compares the income and expenses of a QSDS-designed ship versus that 
 of a CT Book 2 design.  The CT Book 2 design wins.]

[Rob points out that the QSDS-designed ship is not economically viable]
 
> Also note the Book 2 Free Trader had 10 state rooms, which ment 8 high
> passages available instead of only 6 passages in the 10 state rooms of the
> QSDS design which unbalances it even more.
 
> I can appreciate the want for designs to be consistant from the beginers
> sequences to the advanced sequences, but they also have to be compatiable
> with the basic game.

By 'basic game,' do you mean Classic Traveller, or the starship economics 
rules in the (yet unpublished) Traveller Version 4?  I believe you refer 
to the latter, since it's already been established that we can't have a 
design system firmly compatible with the CT design systems and with QSDS, 
FF&S Lite, and FF&S itself (which is the basis for the previous two systems).

Economic Viability of commercial starships has been a pet peeve of mine 
for a long time.  With MT, and more so with FF&S, it was hard to build a 
ship with enough hold space to pay for itself.  With this in mind, we 
definitely should NOT re-instate the CT rule of 10% internal space for 
jump fuel per jump number.  With FF&S ships, I found myself tempted to 
install over-capable jump drives (and collapsible fuel bladders) just for 
the sake of jump fuel efficiency.

Here are some potential solutions to the problem:

Make ships less expensive -- mucking about with the cost of opponents 
(rather than other properties, such as weight and volume) doesn't affect 
compatablility and canon.  Making lower-numbered jump drives cheaper 
(coupled with another effect, described below) would be one big way of 
reducing the Dreaded Mortgage Payment.  If thrusters are allowed at a 
certain TL (11 or 12, or whatever else is finally decided upon), ships at 
that TL benefit because the volume formerly required for reaction mass 
can be used as hold space, and increase potential income.  To offset 
this, jump drives at lower TLs should be less expensive (probably the J-1 
and J-2 drives).  This makes thruster plates Yet Another Advantage for 
high tech societies, such as the Third Imperium, since ships at this tech 
level and beyond are more economically viable, and trade flourishes (and, 
BTW, this provides yet another impetus for DISCARDING that flimsy "Fusion 
Plus" hook that I hate so much).

Increase Income -- Let's face it:  If nobody can make money only charging 
Cr1000 per DISPLACEMENT ton to haul freight, is that rate going to 
stand?  No!  3.27 light years is a heck of a long way to haul fourteen 
cubic meters of anything.  Not being in the cartage business myself, I 
have no contemporary comparisons for how much it costs to haul an 
equivalent volume across a country, or a continent, or an ocean, but 
whoever is charging only Cr1000 to haul 14 m^3 of pocket baby diaper 
steamers an entire parsec is getting gypped.  Of course, the logical 
counterpoint is that excessively high freight rates will discourage 
interstellar commerce because fewer people will be willing to pay them.  
Still, the base freight rate (per displacement ton) should be adjusted 
upward.  Let's face it:  Fourteen cubic meters is actually a LOT of 
STUFF.  With a little shoving, I could probably get three of my cars into 
that volume.  Another thing:  Ships that can manage more than one parsec 
between stops should be able to charge extra.  If a J-2 capable Far 
Trader can save the customer two weeks' time (one in port and one in 
jumpspace), and Cr1000 per ton as opposed to a Free Trader who needs (and 
charges for) two jumps to make the same trip, the Far Trader captain 
should at least be able to tack on a surcharge to the bill.

While I'm Ranting:  The trade and commerce rules, as presented in MT and 
TNE, needed work.  There are some things (like official documents and 
currency) that, if handled in one-ton lots, wouldn't be handled by 
ordinary civilians.  Also, those rules presume that some goods won't be 
more valueable than others.  Example:  Since when do weapons have the 
same base price per ton as does mineral ore, or flavored water?  I can 
see where the trade and commerce rules were 'dumbed up' for the sake of 
simplicity, but they also made it harder to turn a profit, even when 
suffering wild success in the cargo speculation business.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:36:57 -0700
Subject: Re: DMSes and Rocks

>I'm not sure where I saw it but in my universe, planetary Deep Meson Sites are
>constructed as a VERY LARGE sphere (possibly a kilometre or more in diameter),
>enclosing the weapon, crew, fire control, neutrino sensor, meson screen, and
>powerplant.  This sphere is designed to rotate 360 degrees on all three axis.
>Since matter is virtually invisible to mesons, the sphere could rotate and fire
>downwards (towards the core of the planet) to hit targets on the far side.
>
This is exactly how they are described in FF&S.  Though with a  Barrel
Length that long a DMS could easily make short work of a 100,000+ ton
capital ship.  Possibly destroying it with a single shot.

And here I am crusing about the wilds in a slightly modified 100ton S-class
scout.  yeeeeeeeesh!!!

DS


------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:39:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #118

>There have been attempts at formalizing law into a logical system of
>non-boolean logic in reality but those attempts have failed.

I'm not surprised.  We live in a human sociaty.  And humans are
driven more by emotions than logic.  However, it would make for an
interesting planet in which all laws were controlled by computers.
Police would simply plug the players profile into the computer and
wait to see if the their actions were criminal.  What type of 
government code would this type of world have?  IE government by
the computers, for the computer of the computers.

- -Daniel




------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:41:17 -0700
Subject: Re: 50t Cutter/FFSLite

> 
>I'm working on new ship using FF&S, it's a customs/patrol
>clipper (guess :) and one of the things I'm going to do is
>fit it with a 50t Cutter, with an assortment of different
>modules available.
> 
>Has anyone designed any modules for this? (FF&S, FFSL, or QSDS)
> 
>FFS or FFSL preferred.

If you look in the RCEG (Reform Coalition Equipment Guide) pages 143-145
there are 10 different modules.  All of these modules were disigned using FF&S.
 
>Comments:
> 
>I tried out FFSL the other night and noticed something, the
>toughness factor of the hull material seems to be omitted from
>the hull calculations.
> 
>Anyone else notice this?

I'd been looking through it and had though something was missing on the
materials tables, but I was on the picket line at the time and couldn't
refrence to FF&S to see if my brain was right.  I think though the toughness
has been omitted in favour of an easier way of calculating hull armor value.

DS


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:11:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Myth of Neutrino Sensors

I've been skipping over the intertwining threads of rock dropping, 
planetary assaults, and deep meson gun sites because, frankly, I'm quite 
sick of them.  I'm now getting about five 30k packets of Traveller-Digest 
in my INBOX, and all they contain is this meta-thread, and desperate 
pleas to stop it.  In the interest of killing at least part of this 
debate, I offer the following squelch:

Neutrino sensors are useless for finding fission and fusion power plants.

Why?  Because these nuclear reactions do not give off a sufficient 
quanitity of neutrinos (of sufficient energy) to be useful in tracking 
their source.  Sure, even DGP's "Starship Operator's Handbook," which 
even I use as a major sourse of Traveller canon, says that fusion power 
plants shed so many neutrinos that, given a sufficiently powerful plant 
at a close enough range, the configuration of the ship's superdense hull 
can be resolved, and the ship type itself determined.  Unfortunately, 
this just plain isn't true.

A proton-proton chain (the 'standard' fusion reaction) gives off 
neutrinos on the lower end of the energy scale as a by-product.  For 
contemporary neutrino detectors, it's estimated that an Earth-bound 
sensor will only pick up about one neutrino per day from our own sun.  
Using this baseline, a neutrino sensor can only be expected to pick up 
(on average) 7x10^-21 (that's a number with twenty zeros between the 
decimal point and the seven) neutrinos per second per ton of detector per 
watt of the fusion plant.  Given a one-ton detector trying to sniff out a 
100 Mw fusion plant, you can expect a hit about once every 50,000 years.  
Even with a million-ton sensor trying to get a bead on a 100,000 Mw power 
plant, you can pick up a neutrino only about once every 26.3 minutes, 
which is hardly sufficient to be begin building up a sensor track.

Very hot stars have higher energy fusion reactions going on at their 
cores which produce higher-energy neutrinos which are easier to detect, 
but now we're talking about temperatures and pressures that occur nowhere 
else, certainly not inside fusion power plants.  Thus, neutrino sensors 
are only really useful as survey instruments to obtain information about 
the internal workings of stars.

The source I used was an article written by Dave Nilsen in Challenge #71 
(on behalf of himself and Frank Chadwick) entitled "Brilliant Lances 
Design Notes."  The source they used for some of the information on neutrino 
sensors was some chap named Kris Miller who was, in their words, "perhaps 
the only Traveller player who works with a real neutrino sensor" that 
they knew of.

What does this mean?  It means that you can't use neutrino sensors to 
find deep meson gun sites, and likewise they can't use neutrino sensors 
to find attacking starships.  It's possible that an attacking force, 
without prior knowledge of the location of the DMSs, can still 
neutralize them by knocking out their sensor nets (active and passive) on 
the ground and in orbit, but leaving the sites themselves intact.  Of 
course, they wouldn't want to use any landing zones (or any other 
features or structures) that the defender had previously surveyed and 
marked until they were sure that the deep meson sites had been taken out.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:24:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Somebody screwed up

Without naming names ('cause I didn't bother to remember them) can I 
kindly request that whoever's been quoting entire Traveller Digests by way 
of reply PLEASE STOP?!?  There was one instance where an entire Digest 
was re-posted with NOTHING NEW ADDED.  That's Just Plain Wrong!

We're already suffering enough bandwidth waste because of the Rock 
Dropping/Planetary Assault/Deep Meson Gun thread, and all of the other 
off-topic garbage.  The darn Digest is getting really hard to sit 
through.  Could whoever is doing this re-posting please, PLEASE learn how 
to use their editor?  The DELETE key is your FRIEND!

I thank you in advance for your prompt attention to this urgent matter.  
The rest of you who know how to cut out irrelevant text can go back to 
reading the debate about the 2nd Amendment.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:32:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

Thus spake Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>:

> IMPERIAL INTERSTELLAR SCOUT SERVICE:

Sorry to say, but this one's already been done.  The first place I saw it 
was DGP's "World Builder's Handbook" published for MT.  There are several 
references in TNE to it as well (which I can't cite right now).  
Essentially, it's a humanoid figure riding some streamlined, eight-legged 
beastie.  It may have appeared in the CT "Scouts" supplement, but I can't 
be certain of this. 

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:34:25 -0700
Subject: Re: DMSes and Rocks

>   DMSes are large facilities (much larger than the majority of smaller
>starships) that have HUGE meson guns in them, not too mention extensive
>maintenance and C/C facilities for coordinating military activity. It is
>likely there won't be more than a few of these monsters *in* ;-) any but
>the heaviest populated planets.

Read Vampire Fleets.  There are Three, I say again Three of these puppies on
Promise, one was built before the collapse and didn't save the planet from
the ravages of Virus.  The other two were built after the planet fell by
Virus controlled robots.  Pretty scary thought isn't it?

DS


------------------------------

From: "Kenji Houston" <hokido@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 17:47:05 
Subject: Fwd: Namegen program

==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE==================
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>To: "traveller@MPGN.COM" <traveller@MPGN.COM>,
>	"traveller@MPGN.COM" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 12:36:01 
>Reply-To: "Kenji Houston" <hokido@primenet.com>
>Priority: Normal
>X-Mailer: PMMail 1.5 UNREGISTERED SHAREWARE
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Subject: Namegen program
>

Does anyone know where I can get namegen.zip or worldgen.zip?

This Message Was Sent With An UNREGISTERED Version Of PMMail.  
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------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 19 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 122

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Meson Guns: Hero's of the Nth Intersteller War
         2. Re: Alternative FTL Transport
         3. Azhanti High Lightning - The Untold Story
         4. Re: Explosive decompression
         5. Re: explosive decompression...not
         6. Re: Explosive decompression
         7. unsubscribe
         8. Re: Naked without guns
         9. Re: Legal Systems
        10. Re: American Copyright Law
        11. RE Corporations in space...
        12. Re: explosive decompression...not
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #116
        14. The Corsair, QSDS 1.1

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 18:07:56 -0600
Subject: Meson Guns: Hero's of the Nth Intersteller War

On 06/19/96 at 08:27 AM,  derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> said:

>Coupled with the fact that on a planet you have an unlimited amount
>of space from which to draw power or put in a power plant, you could
>quite literally have this thing firing on a personal combat scale
>time frame, once every 5 seconds.  This would further reduce your
>difficulty mods.  Yeouch this is getting nastier every moment the
>more thought you put into it.  Planetary meason guns could quite
>literally in the space of a half hour crank out 360 shots for every
>30 minute space combat term.  

...and now you know why the Terran's cleaned the 1st Imperium's clock!
<g>

Terrans had meson guns, the Vilani didn't.  The Terrans had jump2, the
Vilani didn't.  It's blitzkrieg time again, faster moving and longer
range against slower and shorter. 

Terran fleet concentrates more quickly than the Vilani can and takes
key planet.  (Maybe by threating it with a *big* rock <g>, but let's
say pounding the planet with long range meson guns.) Then the Terrans
quickly install DMSs and move out.  Vilani send in a fleet to recover
the planet, and get chopped to peices by the DMSs while the Terran
fleets are elsewhere taking still other key Vilani planets.

The Vilani can win a pitched space battle (which the Terrans won't
fight) through simple numbers, but they can't get lost planets back. 
And with it costing fleet after fleet in
impossible attempts to recover planets the Vilani soon don't even have
the numbers to win pitched battles.  Now their loses escalate!

Terrans can concentrate and scatter their forces more quickly. They
can bloody a Vilani fleet at range and jump.  They have secure bases
for resupply, while the Vilani's bases are only secure if a massive
fleet is sitting there..eventually not even then.

Of course, that's not *all* of it, but I rather suspect this is a
bigger part of what happened than spreading diseases or cloning
soldiers.  <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 17:30:54 -0600
Subject: Re: Alternative FTL Transport

On 06/19/96 at 06:06 PM,  Arthur Green <ARTHUR@cclana.ucd.ie> said:

>Rowboats vs motorboats is a better analogy to intra-system travel. 
>Think of it as HEPlaR vs. thruster plates :-) Better FTL drives will 
>give you a situation more like sailing ships and steam ships. Don't 
>know about you, but I haven't seen many clippers round here lately 
>:-)

I agree with you on this...generally, but not completely.  I can
envision situations where there could be a couple of FTL methods
available, even with the difference as great as "sailing ship vs steam
ship."  Why, for example, are there still jump1 ships when technology
makes jump2,3,4 drives available?  Over time more and more ships will
move to the newer, better technology, but *how much* time will it
take?

On the sail vs steam analogy, the first steam ships were built in the
early 1800's and sailing ships competed successfully with them for
nearly 100 years.  In some niches sailing ships still compete with
engine powered ships successfully.

Another possiblity, would be a culture alien to the PC's might use
different techs for various things, including FTL.  Maybe eventually
the new culture would adapt to the mainstream (or the mainstream would
adapt to the alien culture's technology), but it wouldn't happen
overnight.  

Shoot!  If you had a really superior technology would you give it away
to everybody else?  How much would you *charge* somebody for it? 
Would you try to prevent the other folks from developing it for
themselves?  They'd get it...eventually.

I doubt the early 3rd Imperium is giving Thruster's or MrFusion to
anybody!  I rather suspect they would go to extremes to prevent those
technologies from leaking to competing powers...

"What!  One of our new frigates is missing near the Jalal Border. We
*can't* let those upstarts get their hands on it.  Send Task Force 3
in with orders to recover it at any cost!", Imperium Naval Hqrts.

"Get a dozen ships into that area!  If we can recover that frigate
we'll be able to finally compete with those Imperium pretender scum.",
Jalal Naval Hqrts.

"What a lucky break!  We took out the entire bridge section of that
Frigate before he even had a chance to know what was going on. Now, if
we can dismantle this MDrive and power system, and get out of here
before the blasted cops arrive we'll have it made.", Blotto Casper,
Pirate King.

...if this isn't an adventure hook I've never seen one! <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Michael Bailey <mickb@thehub.com.au>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:59:22 -0900
Subject: Azhanti High Lightning - The Untold Story

Of course, nobody told you about the other, missing 'Lightning' Class
Cruiser - the infamous 'Terran High Lightning'.  Due to project
mismanagement and labour troubles, the ship ran waaay over budget and was
launched almost two years late.  Another couple of years was spent fixing up
shoddy workmanship and the bent keel.  Finally, the ship's hand picked
Solomani crew went berzerk and murdered each other following the showing of
the 5650 World Cup Final.

(The first part was very loosely based on the probably fallacious tale of
the frigate 'HMAS Melbourne', the latest surface ship to be built for the
R.A.N. before the launch of the first ANZAC Class Frigate - if indeed this
has been launched.)

Michael Bailey 

'quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand.  Ignorance and
prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.'
                             Rush, 'The Witchhunt'


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:02:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Explosive decompression

Daniel asked the musical question:
> 14 psi is for standard atmosphere, what would the effects be for beings
> living in atmosphere type 8 or 9?  Or for that matter, what of beings who
> come from the atmosphere of large gas giants.  Or what about a free trader
> being holed while refueling in the atmosphere of a gas giant.  I would be
> interested in seeing what rules others are using in these types of
> situations. 

Given that humans can happily live in type 8/9 (Dense) atmospheres, I
can't picture them being much more than 1.5 atms, 2.5 absolute tops. 
Beyond that all kinds of weird physiology starts to come into play -- take
a scuba class to find out more. 

Gas-giant dwellers are an open issue.  Remember that Jupiter (for example)
has a deep upper atmosphere with low pressure, including a wide band of
0.5-2.0 atm pressure which gets nearly all of the sunlight (clouds block
it lower down).  Thus, life "sort of as we know it," relying on
photosynthesis at the base of the food chain, would tend to live in
near-earthlike pressures. 

Arguably, other forms of life might use chemosynthesis further down, in
high-pressure regions; their ships would be built strong to keep such
pressures *in*, and so blowouts would probably be comparably innocuous to
the structure of the ship itself.  The crew, however, would not fare as 
well as humans do under explosive decompression -- they likely *would* 
explode a la "Outland," just as deep-ocean fish due when incautiously 
brought to the surface.

On the GG-refueling question, I can't imagine a ship getting deeper than
about 0.2 atm on a refuelling run, and they might stay as high as 0.05 atm
or less.  Remember, the idea is to skim by quickly, then coast up out of
the gravity well (although as I posted a while back, the properties of CG
have a big influence on the details).  If you go too deep, the increased
atmospheric drag brings you to a halt *fast* -- notice how the reentering
Space shuttle sheds most of its orbital velocity between 60 and 20 miles
up, at pressures less than 0.1 atm? 

So, a ship holed while refueling would basically act like one holed in
deep space, to a first approximation.  The overpressure would keep the
GG's atmosphere out of the ship until nearly all the ship's air had
escaped.  After that, you might have a bit of a fire hazard as H2 mixed
with the remaining O2 on board...but if you haven't either patched the
hole or left the GG's atmosphere by then, you've probably got bigger
worries than that anyway... :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."



------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:42:27 MST7
Subject: Re: explosive decompression...not

> 14 psi is for standard atmosphere, what would the effects be for
> beings living in atmosphere type 8 or 9?  Or for that matter, what
> of beings who come from the atmosphere of large gas giants.  

Now THAT, as they say...is a horse of a different color! Still most 
ships designed to hold that pressure IN, will be strong enough to 
withstand losing the pressure, but yes, you'll get more damage.  
This, too is where you get the Outland style explosive heads ;-)
 
> Or what about a free trader being holed while refueling in the 
> atmosphere of a gas giant.

	Uhhh...besides all the crew dying as they're crushed by the 
sudden increase in pressure, or suffocate from trying to breath a mixture of hydrogen 
or helium, or smashing against the bulkheads as the ship careens out 
of control, or, simply fallling (for a loooooong time) as the ship 
breaks up from the suddenly unstable airframe? (I picture something 
like this looking sort of like that crash in the beginning of the 
Six-Million Dollar Man, only worse... ) 

	In truth, I don't know, as I've never seen an accurate description 
of exactly HOW a ship skimming fuel works...unless you have scoops 
that cover most of the surface of your ship, you've got to go pretty 
deep in the atmosphere to reach the densities required; you've got to 
cram a whole lot of hydrogen in through some relatively small holes 
in a short period of time...avoiding storms, and clouds of extraneous 
material, etc. etc.

	However, if a ship can take that kind of punishment, that settles 
the old question of how much like a submarine can a starship be.

	Now where can I stick the ICBM tubes in my Free Trader?  ;-)

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 01:08:27 GMT
Subject: Re: Explosive decompression

=> Arguably, other forms of life might use chemosynthesis further down, in
=> high-pressure regions; their ships would be built strong to keep such
=> pressures *in*, and so blowouts would probably be comparably innocuous to
=> the structure of the ship itself.  The crew, however, would not fare as 
=> well as humans do under explosive decompression -- they likely *would* 
=> explode a la "Outland," just as deep-ocean fish due when incautiously 
=> brought to the surface.
=> 
=> On the GG-refueling question, I can't imagine a ship getting deeper than
=> about 0.2 atm on a refuelling run, and they might stay as high as 0.05 atm
=> or less.  Remember, the idea is to skim by quickly, then coast up out of
=> the gravity well (although as I posted a while back, the properties of CG
=> have a big influence on the details).  If you go too deep, the increased
=> atmospheric drag brings you to a halt *fast* -- notice how the reentering
=> Space shuttle sheds most of its orbital velocity between 60 and 20 miles
=> up, at pressures less than 0.1 atm? 

I believe that at about 1,000 km beneath the cloud tops, a gas giant's
atmosphere reverts to a liquid state.  This would be in the neighbourhood of
about 3,000,000 ATMs (squish)!  Talking about ruining your day....

------------------------------

From: "Stephen M. Daly" <daly@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:07:26 -0700
Subject: unsubscribe

unsubscribe traveller@mpgn.com stephen daly

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 19 Jun 1996 21:43:04 GMT
Subject: Re: Naked without guns

Strangely, my players don't seem to carry guns much.  Threats, innuendo,
bighting sarcasm, and whatever they can build out of duct tape, superglue,
and the TL15 Swiss Army Knife, yes, but not guns.

Villianous Thug: (Pulling gun) You'll buy from the Boss' store at his prices,
or else!

Albert: (Pulling notebook) Does the phrase "Income Tax Audit" suggest a
potential modification in your envisioned customer relations procedures?


Ian really enjoyed playing Albert the Commando Accountant ("Have spreadsheet,
will travel").  

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 19 Jun 1996 22:00:59 GMT
Subject: Re: Legal Systems

I wasn't trying to imply that only lawyers could research/write about the law.
 I just figured that it would be easier for a lawyer (already knowing a lot
about the subject).  Not being a lwyer myself, I find legal textbooks hard to
follow.

In response to Glenn M. Goffin's potential offer:

It all sounded terrific, and you're right it would be a series of articles.

I think the tack to take would be a quick overview of guiding principles
behind the legal system, including how laws are created, and then some
role-playing nuts-n-bolts about how it would affect the players.  Hitting a
group expecting an American-type with a planet that has an Islamic-type
system would be cruel (ie. fun!).

Some titbits that I've used in my campaign:

Most British common law-based systems depend heavily on precident, but a
French friend tells me that the Code Napoleon does not depend on precident to
the same extent (it's used as a guideline, but not actual case law, or
something like that).

Scottish law has a nice verdict: "not proven", giving a judge/jury a third
option between "guilty" and "not guilty".

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 19 Jun 1996 22:09:26 GMT
Subject: Re: American Copyright Law

>While it may not have been created by SJG, the
>eye-on-the-pyramid is copyrighted by SJG.  I think that this allows it
>to use the symbol exclusively for gaming purposes (so they can't sue
>the US gov't for putting the symbol on a dollar bill).

This sounds really wierd.  Actually, it sounds really stupid -- the
eye-in-a-pyramid has been around longer than Steve Jackson's been alive, so
how can he copyright it in _any_ capacity?  And this the same legal system
that ruled that Apple couldn't copyright the trash can on a computer screen,
because trash cans existed before the Macintosh...


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:18:08 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: RE Corporations in space...

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

>
>On 19 Jun 96 at 9:40, Roderick Darroch Elliott spewed:
>
>> 
>>         Well, you asked for it :).  I'll try and cobble something together.
>> What I was thinking of were some of the 19th C European corporate entites,
>> because a) they kind of fit the mercantile/empire mood, and b) they've got a
>
>Actually, you may want to think more 18th century.  By the 19th 
>century, corporate entities were becoming a lot more centralized, and 
>tightly structured.  I've always viewed the Megacorps as something 
>like the Hudson Bay Company, or East India Company.  Given a virtual 
>monopoly by the Emperor or representatives to exploit the resources of a 
>particular sector or subsector or world.  

        Exactly what I was thinking; I was planning on doing a blurb on
letters patent companies (I've always thought they were neat; I come from a
jurisdiction where those babies still exist).  In terms of the smaller
corporate forms, I was thinking of writing up the Commenda and the Societas
Navalis (medieval forms of limited partnership, one finetuned for shipping
ventures) and some of their more recent European counterparts, which are
pretty funky corporate beasties.

[snip]
>
>19th century companies (at least after the invention of the 
>telegraph), began to develop bureaucratic structures patterned after 
>the Prussian model.  A lot more tightly controlled than STL 
>communications would allow.


        What I'va also been thinking of is how STL would affect securities
markets...  and one conclusion I've come to (purely because the chaos that
can be wreaked is too good to pass up) is that bearer securities would be a
way around the STL roadblock in that they're a way to get evidence of share
ownership from place to place when communications are slow.  OTOH, as I've
pointed out, bearer securities can pose problems, which IMHO could make for
great plot hooks.  



   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   |-------------------------------------------------|
   | "An imperfect plan implemented immediately and  |
   |  violently will always succeed better than a    |
   |  perfect plan"                                  |
   |	             -Gen. George Patton             |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:47:03 -0600
Subject: Re: explosive decompression...not

At 01:24 pm 6/18/96 -0700, derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> wrote:
>I have a friend who would argue with you on the effect of explosive
>decompression, mind you he'd argue with just about anyone on any topic,=
 it's
>just the kind of guy he is.  However, seeing as we have never first hand
>experienced the effects of ED all of this is just theory.  I would imagine
>NASA has done some work on it though.

        Massively busy right now, but this happens to be a subject I saved
some info on and managed to find relatively quickly & thought it might shed
some light:

>From: GLANDIS@LERC.NASA.GOV (Geoffrey A. Landis)
>Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
>Subject: Re: Effects of Explosive Decompression
>
>The subject of explosive decompression comes up so often on sci.space.tech
that I=92ve decided to keep a file on the suject.  In brief, if you keep=
 your
mouth *wide* open to avoid rupturing your lungs, you can expect to stay
conscious in complete vacuum for ten to twenty seconds.  If you are
recompressed within one to two minutes, you will probably survive the
experience.  In short, Clarke (in _2001_) seens to have gotten it about
right, since Bowman manages to close the airlock in the ten seconds of
consciousness he has available..
> "It is very unlikely that a human suddenly exposed to a vacuum would have
more than 5 to 10 seconds to help himself.  If immediate help is at hand,
although one"s appearance and condition will be grave, it is reasonable to
assume that recompression to a tolerable pressure (200 mm Hg, 3.8 psia)
within 60 to 90 seconds could result in survival, and possibly in rather
rapid recovery."
>Among other things, it has the only published discussion I=92ve ever seen=
 of
the JSC (well, it was MSC then) suit technician who spent 20 seconds in
vacuum in Dec 1966 when a suit umbilical came loose during a vacuum- chamber
test.  The pressure drop was slowed somewhat by the remaining section of
hose, so it wasn=92t fast enough to cause lung damage.  He passed out,
presumably from anoxia, after 12-15s.  Pressure began to be restored at 20s
and was well up at 27s, at about which time he regained consciousness.  He
was apparently uninjured, and aftereffects were minor and temporary.
>
>Henry Spencer comments:
>>Ebullism (Precious Bodily Fluids vaporize at body temperature):
>"Small pockets of gas can be detected beneath the skin within two to three
seconds after exposure ..."
>"Gas evolution can also be detected in the abdominal cavity after seven to
ten seconds, and within the heart and great vessels after about twenty=
 seconds."
>
>Roth says that vapor bubbles form in the bloodstream essentially
instantaneously=97delays under 1s=97but initially are not serious enough to=
 stop
circulation.  Eventually they are.  Worse, these bubbles begin as water
vapor, but then they start to pick up dissolved gases from the blood... and
while the water vapor will condense out almost instantaneously on
repressurization, the gases redissolve much more slowly, and the resulting
long-lived bubbles are potentially a very serious threat.  There are medical
countermeasures, which Roth discusses, but most of them unfortunately rely
on gravity (for example, a well-chosen prone position=97on one side at about=
 a
30-degree head-down slope=97keeps bubbles in the heart away from the valves
and gives time for the bubbles to dissolve or be dealt with medically).
>Gregory Bennett adds:=20
>Incidentally, we have had one experience with a suit puncture on the
Shuttle flights.  On STS-37, during one of my flight experiments, the palm
restraint in one of the astronaut=92s gloves came loose and migrated until=
 it
punch a hole in the pressure bladder between his thumb and forefinger.  It
was explosive decompression, just a little 1/8 inch hole, but it was
exciting down here in the swamp because it was the first injury we=92ve ever
head from a suit incident.  Amazingly, the astronaut in question didn=92t=
 even
know the puncture had occured; he was so hopped on adrenalin it wasn=92t=
 until
after he got back in that he even noticed there was a painful red mark on
his hand.  He figured his glove was chafing and didn=92t worry about it. =20
>The whole story didn=92t come out until the suits were back home and a suit
technician was setting up to clean that glove; he discovered the dried blood
on the outer TMG (thermal micrometrioid garment) and then found the wayward
palm restraint bar.  What happened: when the metal bar punctured the glove,
the skin of the astronaut=92s hand partially sealed the opening.  He bled=
 into
space, and at the same time his coagulating blood sealed the opening enough
that the bar was retained inside the hole.=20
>The best estimate we=92ve been able to get from the flight surgeons about=
 how
long an astronaut might survive a catastrophic suit failure is "several tens
of seconds to very few minutes" with almost certainty for detectable
permanent damage.
>
>
>
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available=20
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched=20
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:47:14 -0600
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #116

At 08:27 am 6/19/96 -0700, you wrote:
>At 09:32 AM 6/19/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>>From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>
>>I know nothing about the physics, or supposed physics of Mesons, but if
>>their range is based on barrel length and diameter, wouldn't you have to
>>allow a deep site to have a barrel that could be rotated to face any
>>direction.  This would sorta put a limit on how big it could actually be,
>right?
>
>Potentially.  The length of the barrel can be no longer than the diameter of
>the sphere it is incased it, stands to reason.  However, with the advent of
>grav technology it is possible to create, however unlikely, a DMG with a
>barrel lenght of kilimeters and kilometers long, assuming you have access to
>enought power to keep both the gun and the contra grav units opperating.

        What? Grav technology? Where's my masscon detecter again! Target
lock acquired; fire at will ...

>This means because the effects of gravity have been nulified on the barrel
>it's really nothing more than suspended mass with no actual weight, the
>barrel won't flex so you have no upper limit on how long the barrel could be.
>
>Coupled with the fact that on a planet you have an unlimited amount of space
>from which to draw power or put in a power plant, you could quite literally
>have this thing firing on a personal combat scale time frame, once every 5
>seconds.  This would further reduce your difficulty mods.  Yeouch this is

        It may not flex because of weight, but (if we're assuming
gravitational mass and inertial mass are different) it will flex because of
inertia if you try to spin it too fast ...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:06:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: The Corsair, QSDS 1.1

Hi,

Here is the Corsair, designed under QSDS 1.1.

Under "Cost" I have given the full price, with the discounted price (for 
using off-the-shelf components) in perenthesis. 

===============
Corsair


Tons:  400		Volume: 5600		Cost: 288.6 (216.45)
Crew:  10		Passengers (H/M): 0	Passengers (L): 20
Cargo: 108.9		Controls: Fib   	Tech Level: 11

08 Size Rating			02 Jump Rating
03 Fire Control Rating		03 G Rating / Heplar
03 Battery 3-0-0-0		03 Power Plant Rating
00 Battery			118.4 Fuel Rating
00 Battery			00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery			00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery			00 Damper Rating
00 Battery			A10 P4 J4 Sensors/Improved TL 11
00 Battery			
00 Battery			40 Armor	16 Structure

Crew Detail: 1 Engineer, 2 Electronics, Pilot, Astrogator, 3 Gunners,
	     1 Command, 1 Ship's Troop.

	The Corsair, an armed raiding ship, is mostly used by pirates.  
Notable features of the corsair are large cargo doors and variable 
identification features.  The large clamshell doors can open to 
reveal the entire cargo bay.  The ship has several centrally controlled 
identification features which can be used to disguise the ship: radio 
emissions alter frequency and content, and the ship's transponders can be 
altered to identify the vessel as having any of a variety of missions and 
identities.
	Based on a 400-ton, wedge-shaped, unstreamlined hull, the ship has 10 
Large Staterooms for use as crew quarters, while the 20 low berths are 
available for emergency use, or to hold captives.  The Avionics 
installed are to military specifications, while the communications gear 
is Improved TL-11.  Nine workstations have been provided, but there is no 
central bridge.
	 The Corsair is not normally available on the open market, as the ship 
is a non-commercial type.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)









------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #122
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 20 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 123

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
         2. Re: 50t Cutter/FFSLite
         3. Far Trader
         4. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
         5. SJG and the eye in the Pyramid
         6. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
         7. QSDS Ships Galore Reworked pt. 1
         8. QSDS Ships Galore Rework pt. 2
         9. Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)
        10. Re: American Copywrite Law
        11. Calling All Engineers!
        12. Re: Legal Systems
        13. Re: Symbols of Earth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:18:03 -0600
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

At 07:11 pm 6/19/96 +0100, you wrote:
>> But doesn't the IISS have it's own symbol already?  It should be
>> that little six-legged Sylean creature running in front of the
>> Sunburst.
>
>That symbol belongs specifically to the Xboat service of the IISS; the
>eight-legged equine-like beast on the symbol is a 'ponii'(sp?), which
>I believe is native to Vland. The use of this animal on the symbol
>arose from a member of the newly-formed IISS reading about the Pony
>Express from C20th Terra (which bears some similarity to the Xboat
>network), and guessing that pony and ponii were one and the same.
>
>I don't remember the background of the symbol being a sunburst, but I
>could be mistaken. 

        Nope. It wasn't ... just a partial circle with a line trailing
behind it.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:18:05 -0600
Subject: Re: 50t Cutter/FFSLite

At 05:08 pm 6/19/96 -0400, you wrote:
> 
>I'm working on new ship using FF&S, it's a customs/patrol
>clipper (guess :) and one of the things I'm going to do is
>fit it with a 50t Cutter, with an assortment of different
>modules available.
> 
>Has anyone designed any modules for this? (FF&S, FFSL, or QSDS)
> 
>FFS or FFSL preferred.
> 
>Comments:
> 
>I tried out FFSL the other night and noticed something, the
>toughness factor of the hull material seems to be omitted from
>the hull calculations.

        It's built into the tables ... that's why there's different columns
at different TLs.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:28:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Far Trader

Hi,

Here is the Far Trader...

=====
Far Trader

Tons:  200		Volume: 2800		Cost: 84.62 (63.47)
Crew:  2/5		Passengers (H/M): 7/0	Passengers (L): 4
Cargo: 33.8		Controls: Std/Bridge   	Tech Level: 11

08 Size Rating			02 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating		01 G Rating / Heplar
02 Battery - 2-0-0-0		05 Power Plant Rating
00 Battery			49.9 SR Fuel Rating 
00 Battery			00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery			00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery			00 Damper Rating
00 Battery			A1 P2 J0 Sensors/Improved TL 12
00 Battery			
00 Battery			0 Armor 	6 Structure

Crew Detail (Standard): Engineer/Electronics, Pilot/Astrogator, 2 Gunners,
			1 Medic/Steward.

Crew Detail (Minimum) : Engineer/Electronics, Pilot/Astrogator.

(Note: The Medic/Steward may be foregone if no passengers are carried.  
The Gunners are optional if the weapons will not be used.)

The Far Trader is based on a 200-ton, box, streamlined hull and has a 10 
ton/hr fuel purification plant.  A variant without the fuel purification 
plant is available with greater cargo capacity (60.8) for a slightly 
lesser price (MCr 63.39 after the standard discount).  In either format, the 
Far Trader contains standard civilian TL-11 avionics and improved TL-11 
communications systems.  There are 8 Large Staterooms available, one of 
which is typically used by the senior individual.  The rest of the crew 
makes use of the four bunks available.  

===================

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)










------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:28:26 -0700
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

At 11:27 AM 6/19/96 -0400, That Computer Guy wrote:

Douglas Berry wrote:
>
>: A few ideas that popped into my head...
>: 
>: IMPERIAL INTERSTELLAR SCOUT SERVICE:
>: 
>: A triangle, point up.  from the two bottom corners of the triangel, arching
>: up to about 1/4 the height, is a view of a blue-green planet (picture the
>: view from the space shuttle).  Near the top, about the 2/3rds height line,
>: is a sunbirst in red.  The rest of the field is black, with white/silver
>: stars added.  The whole thing is surronded by a red border
>
>But doesn't the IISS have it's own symbol already?  It should be that
>little six-legged Sylean creature running in front of the Sunburst.
>Now, if I remember correctly, the IISS grew out of the SISS (Sylean
>ISS).  My guess would be that maybe the SISS symbol could involve the
>herbivore across the starfield idea that you gave.  Then when it
>became the IISS, they could put the herbivore on top of the Sunburst
>(a tribute to their beginning as SISS and incorporate their new
>identity). 

The poni was used as the symbol for the X-boat system, by a historian with
more of a sense of history than comparitive biology.  That was in 624
(Imperial Encyclopedia)

>Also, didn't Cleon I come up with the idea of the Sunburst, or was it
>one of his decendents?  Another thing to keep in mind.  If we plan on
>not invalidating too many prior Traveller writings, then we should
>keep in mind that the Sunburst's ONLY color was red.  This did
>change around 400 (I think) when an Empress declared that the Sunburst
>would have no official color from then on (this was due to the fact that
>some IR seeing species couldn't even see the Sunburst).

(From The Imperial Encyclopedia, pg 28)

"The symbol of the Third Imperium established by Cleon (the first emperor)
when the empire was proclaimed.  Images show him standing before the
original banner with a golden yellow sunburst against a black background,
representing Capital's type G star against dark space."

"In 247, the Eliyoh (a nonhuman minor race) joined the Imperium.  To that
race the symbology was unimpressive.  The Eliyoh vision centerd in the far
infrared, which resulted in distinction between the offcial colors of black
and yellow being impossible.  So the Empress Poriria declared that the
symbol would have no offcial color."

The original banner in the Imperial throne room is still black with a yellow
sunburst.  The IISS uses a red sunburst.  the Imperial Navy, yellow; the
Imperial Army, black; the Imperial Marines, maroon."

That's the canon, anyway.

# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:32:12 -0700
Subject: SJG and the eye in the Pyramid

Steve Jackson Games owns the trademark on the "eye in the Pyramid" logo.
This is applicable to gaming only.

SJG would have no choice but to demand the removal of any gaming product
that included an EitP, or risk losing its trademark due to non-defence.

# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:48:36 -0700
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

At 06:47 PM 6/19/96 -0400, Wes Payne wrote:

>Thus spake Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>:
>
>> IMPERIAL INTERSTELLAR SCOUT SERVICE:
>
>Sorry to say, but this one's already been done.  The first place I saw it 
>was DGP's "World Builder's Handbook" published for MT.  There are several 
>references in TNE to it as well (which I can't cite right now).  
>Essentially, it's a humanoid figure riding some streamlined, eight-legged 
>beastie.  It may have appeared in the CT "Scouts" supplement, but I can't 
>be certain of this. 

It was in DGP's "World Builder's Handbook" first.  Since the canon has the
ponii symbol being used for the X-boat system, and not adopted until after
the civil war, I was proposing the *original* symbol.

# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: scharlto@RTD.COM (Steve Charlton)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:25:30 -0700 (MST)
Subject: QSDS Ships Galore Reworked pt. 1

Based on the latest rework of QSDS, here is a shot at the basic ships 
included in the Traveller Book.  In a few cases, I have exceeded the 
requirements of the original designs, but in general I have tried to limit 
things to the original designs.  Due to power plant tech level requirements, 
all ships are TL12 designs.

OK - Here are the unarmed civilian ships.  I will be posting the Patrol 
Cruiser, Mercenary Cruiser, Lab Ship, Yacht and Safari Ship as soon as I get 
them retyped in (another hour).

Scout Ship
Tons:  100  Volume: 1400         Cost: 18.751
Crew:  1    Passengers (H/M): 3  Passengers (L): 0
Cargo: 15   Controls: Bridge/Fib Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating                   02 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating           02 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery                       1.6 Power Plant Rating (4x20 MW)
00 Battery                       20.4 Fuel Rating
00 Battery                       00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery                       00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery                       00 Damper Rating
00 Battery                       A2 P3 J0 Sensors TL12 Improved
00 Battery                       10 Armor
00 Battery                       06 Structure
Notes:  Based on a 100-ton Streamlined Wedge hull, the Scout Ship carries 
TL12 Improved Communications, and an Air Raft.  It has a 10-ton capacity 
fuel purifier.  The normal crew is 1 (pilot/engineer), but the ship has 4 
Large Staterooms, allowing 3 passengers, or 7 at double-capacity.


Far Trader
Tons:  200  Volume: 2800         Cost: 27.647
Crew:  4    Passengers (H/M): 6  Passengers (L): 10
Cargo: 67   Controls: Bridge     Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating          02 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating  01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery              .8 Power Plant Rating (4x 20 MW)
00 Battery              40.4 Fuel Rating
00 Battery              00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery              00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery              00 Damper Rating
00 Battery              A1 P3 J0 Sensors TL12 Basic
00 Battery              00 Armor
00 Battery              06 Structure

Crew Detail: 1 Engineer, 1 Pilot/Astrogator, 1 Steward, 1 Medical
Notes:  Based on a 200-ton Box Streamlined hull, the Far Trader carries TL12 
Basic Commo and a 10-ton capacity fuel purifier.  The crew has Small 
Staterooms, and there are 6 Large Staterooms and 10 Low Berths on board.


Free Trader
Tons:  200  Volume: 2800         Cost: 27.572
Crew:  4    Passengers (H/M): 6  Passengers (L): 20
Cargo: 79   Controls: Bridge     Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating          01 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating  01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery              .8 Power Plant Rating (4x 20 MW)
00 Battery              20.4 Fuel Rating
00 Battery              00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery              00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery              00 Damper Rating
00 Battery              A1 P3 J0 Sensors TL12 Basic
00 Battery              00 Armor
00 Battery              06 Structure

Crew Detail: 1 Engineer, 1 Pilot/Astrogator, 1 Steward, 1 Medical
Notes:  Based on a 200-ton Box Streamlined hull, the Free Trader carries 
TL12 Basic Commo and a 10-ton capacity fuel purifier.  The crew has Small 
Staterooms, and there are 6 Large Staterooms and 20 Low Berths on board.


Subsidized Merchant
Tons:  400   Volume: 5600          Cost: 42.228
Crew:  5     Passengers (H/M): 10  Passengers (L): 10
Cargo: 212   Controls: Bridge      Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating          01 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating  01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery              .66 Power Plant Rating (2x 75MW)
00 Battery              50.8 Fuel Rating
00 Battery              00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery              00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery              00 Damper Rating
00 Battery              A1 P3 J0 Sensors TL12 Basic
00 Battery              00 Armor
00 Battery              08 Structure

Crew Detail: 1 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Astrogator, 1 Steward, 1 Medical
Notes:  Based on a 400-ton Streamlined Slab hull, the Subsidized Merchant 
carries TL12 Basic Commo and a 10-ton capacity fuel purifier.  The crew has 
Small Staterooms, and there are 10 Large Staterooms and 10 Low Berths on 
board.  There is a 20-ton launnch carried in a strealined external grapple.


Subsidized Liner
Tons:  600   Volume: 8400          Cost: 58.73
Crew:  9     Passengers (H/M): 30  Passengers (L): 20
Cargo: 80    Controls: Bridge      Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating          03 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating  01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery              .66 Power Plant Rating (200 MW)
00 Battery              211.1 Fuel Rating
00 Battery              00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery              00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery              00 Damper Rating
00 Battery              A1 P3 J0 Sensors TL12 Basic
00 Battery              10 Armor
00 Battery              12 Structure

Crew Detail: 2 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Astrogator, 1 Captain, 3 Steward, 1 Medical
Notes:  Based on a 600-ton Unstreamlined Close Structure hull, the 
Subsidized Liner carries TL12 Basic Commo and a 10-ton capacity fuel 
purifier.  The crew has Small Staterooms, and there are 30 Large Staterooms 
and 20 Low Berths on board.  There is a 20-ton Launch carried in a Minimal 
Hangar, which is used as a meeting area or exercise area when the Launch is 
absent.
Steven T. Charlton
I don't recall installing this 
"General Protection Fault" Screen Saver
scharlto@avalon.com (work)  scharlto@rtd.com (home)


------------------------------

From: scharlto@RTD.COM (Steve Charlton)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:54:24 -0700 (MST)
Subject: QSDS Ships Galore Rework pt. 2

Here's the rest of the ships...

Mercenary Cruiser
Tons:  800  Volume: 11200         Cost: 270.352
Crew:  30   Passengers (H/M): 40  Passengers (L): 4
Cargo: 40   Controls: Bridge/Fib  Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating                   03 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating           02 G Rating / Thruster
02 Battery Mil Lsr 3-3-2-0       1.8 Power Plant Rating (750 MW)
02 Battery Missile Barb 10 (8)   301 Fuel Rating
00 Battery                       00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery                       02 Sand Caster Rating (60)
00 Battery                       01 Damper Rating
00 Battery                       A10 P4 J10 Sensors TL12 Small Military
00 Battery                       60 Armor
00 Battery                       14 Structure

Crew Detail: 2 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 1 Astrogator, 1 Pilot, 4 Gunnery, 3 
Screens, 4 Small Craft Crew, 10 Command, 1 Medic, 2 Steward, 40 troops.
Notes:  Based on an 800-ton Unstreamlined Sphere, the Mercenary Cruiser has 
TL12 AdvancedCommo, and a TL12 10-ton capcaity fuel purifier.  The ship 
carries two 50-ton Modular Cutters in grapples on the landing legs, as well 
as 2 ATVs and 2 Air Rafts.  There are 2 Low Berths for medical emergencies.  
This version carries 40 troops, enough to carry a standard Marine platoon of 
3 12-man squads and a 4-man command and support team.  The ship has 2 TL12 
MFDs capable of controlling 4 missiles each.  The Marines are quartered in 
bunks, the Command staff in Large staterooms and the rest in small staterooms.


Patrol Cruiser
Tons:  400  Volume: 5600         Cost: 209.017
Crew:  15   Passengers (H/M): 8  Passengers (L): 0
Cargo: 26   Controls: Bridge/Fib Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating                   03 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating           04 G Rating / Thruster
02 Battery Mil Lsr 3-2-0-0       2.5 Power Plant Rating (500 MW)
02 Battery Missile Barb 10 (8)   122.7 Fuel Rating
00 Battery                       00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery                       00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery                       00 Damper Rating
00 Battery                       A10 P4 J10 Sensors TL12 Small Military
00 Battery                       10 Armor
00 Battery                       16 Structure

Crew Detail: 2 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 1 Astrogator, 1 Pilot, 4 Gunnery, 3 
Command, 1 Medic, 1 Steward, 8 troops.
Notes:  Based on a 400-ton Airframe Needle hull, he Patrol Cruiser has TL12 
AdvancedCommo, and a TL12 10-ton capcaity fuel purifier.  The ship carries a 
30-ton Ship's Boat in an AirFrame Grapple, as well as an ATV.  There are 2 
TL12 MFDs each capable of controlling 4 missiles. The Marines are quartered 
in bunks, the Command staff in Large staterooms and the rest in small 
staterooms.


Lab Ship
Tons:  400  Volume: 5600          Cost: 137.709
Crew:  15   Passengers (H/M): 20  Passengers (L): 10
Cargo: 16   Controls: Bridge/fib  Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating          02 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating  01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery              1.2 Power Plant Rating (5x 50 MW)
00 Battery              81.5 Fuel Rating
00 Battery              00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery              00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery              00 Damper Rating
00 Battery              A10 P4 J10 Sensors TL12 Small Military
00 Battery              00 Armor
00 Battery              06 Structure

Crew Detail: 2 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 1 Pilot, 1 Astrogator, 1 Pinnace 
Pilot, 2 Command, 1 Medic, 4 Stewards. 
Notes:  Based on a 400-ton Unstreamlined Open Structure, the Lab Ship has 
TL12 Advanced Commo, and a TL12 10-ton capacity fuel purifier.  It uses a 
TL12 Advanced Commo, and carries 10 laboratories.  There is a 40-ton pinnace 
carried on board in an Unstreamlined Grapple. There are 5 Specimen holding 
tanks that can also be used as two-person Low Berths.


Yacht
Tons:  200  Volume: 2800          Cost: 29.702
Crew:  4    Passengers (H/M): 10  Passengers (L): 0
Cargo: 22   Controls: Bridge      Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating          01 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating  01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery              01 Power Plant Rating (100 MW)
00 Battery              20.5 Fuel Rating
00 Battery              00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery              00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery              00 Damper Rating
00 Battery              A2 P3 J0 Sensors TL10 Improved
00 Battery              20 Armor
00 Battery              11 Structure

Crew Detail: 1 Engineer, 1 Pilot/Astrogator, 1 Medic, 1 Steward
Notes:  Based on a 200-ton Streamlined Cylinder, the Yacht has TL12 Improved 
Commo, and no fuel purifier.  It carries a 30-ton Ship's Boat in a Minimal 
Hangar, an ATV and an Air Raft  The stateroom for the Ownder Aboard consists 
of a two-large stateroom Suite with a small stateroom office.  The crew has 
small staterooms, and there are 9 Large staterooms for passengewrs (plus the 
two for the explanded Owner's suite).


Safari Ship
Tons:  200  Volume: 2800         Cost: 32.808
Crew:  5    Passengers (H/M): 6  Passengers (L): 0
Cargo: 7    Controls: Bridge     Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating              02 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating      01 G Rating / Thruster
01 Battery Civ Lsr 2-0-0-0  1.3 Power Plant Rating (6x 20MW)
00 Battery                  40.6 Fuel Rating
00 Battery                  00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery                  00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery                  00 Damper Rating
00 Battery                  A2 P3 J0 Sensors TL12 Improved
00 Battery                  10 Armor
00 Battery                  09 Structure

Crew Detail: 1 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Navigator, 1 Medic, 1 Steward
Notes:  Based on a 200-ton Streamlined Disk hull, the Safari Ship has TL11 
ImprovedCommo, and a TL11 10-ton capacity fuel purifier.  It carries a 
20-ton Launch in a Streamlined Grapple, as well as an Air Raft  The hull is 
an Streamlined Disk Structure (6S).  There is a 6-ton Trophy Room, as well 
as 2 7-ton capture cages that can be used as triple-capacity Emergency Low 
Berths in an emergency.  The Owner-Aboard, generally a prize-winning hunter, 
has a small stateroom to use as a personal office/trophy room, in addition 
to the large stateroom quarters he is assigned.  There are 5 additional 
Large staterooms (beyond the two for the Owner Aboard) and the crew is 
quartered in small staterooms.
Steven T. Charlton
I don't recall installing this 
"General Protection Fault" Screen Saver
scharlto@avalon.com (work)  scharlto@rtd.com (home)


------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:15:18 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)

> Some good points snipped
> 
> upward.  Let's face it:  Fourteen cubic meters is actually a LOT of 
> STUFF.  With a little shoving, I could probably get three of my cars into 
> that volume.  

I think my full sized Wagoneer is pretty damn near 1 displacment ton :-)
And it's over 2 tonnes :-)

Gives me a sense of scale on smaller ships/vehicles in traveller.  My
jeep is *big*, and unfortunately it uses enough fuel that HEPlaR fuel
use didn't even make me blink.  I bet a Suburban is 2tons...

Your other points are well taken.

- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:06:45 -0700
Subject: Re: American Copywrite Law

*Trademark* not *copywrite*.

This is an important difference.  Trademark is a symbol or motto that is
used to identify your company/product.  (example:  Coca-Cola (tm), "Where's
the Beef?" (tm) by Wendy's.

The important thin with trademarks, is that they are not universal, and must
be defended.

Steve Jackson owns the Eye/Pyramid logo for gaming purposes.  If I started
"Illuminati Press", and used an Eye/Pyramid scheme for my logo, SJG wouldn't
have a leg to stand on in court.

# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 01:01:08 -0600
Subject: Calling All Engineers!

On 06/19/96 at 10:18 AM,  Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM> said:

>Engineers just plain are not needed on non-military vessels.

If Engineers aren't needed, then *you* aren't providing a reason to
need them!

>All other vessels, visit a starport every week.  If things need
>fixed or maintained it is done then.

So when the "coolent regulator" breaks down while in Jump Space and
you'll all roast to death in hours you don't need anybody aboard that
can fix it?  When those pesky Pirates blow a hole in your hull
wreaking your jump coil, you don't need an Engineer to jury-rig a
temporary for that emergency jump?  When your overworked
pilot/astrogator misjumps because she skipped the last 3 engine
maintanace checks, you didn't need an Engineer?

>I think that one engineer per 500T of hull would be much more
>realistic.  Under 500T, engineering duties are handled by the
>flight deck crew, ah la Hans and Chewy.  500T to 999T You need an
>engineer etc.

I don't agree, Hans and Chewy not withstanding.  <g> Then again wasn't
Chewy the MF's engineer?

You really need at least a crew of 2 for ships above 100tons, ie
starships.  I say you can fly with one, but it's dangerous, stressful
and tiring.  With 2, both should be able to fly it, fight it, and fix
it.  With 3 you can specialize a little.  With more you can specialize
more.  But IAC, *somebody* aboard should always have some engineering
skill!


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:58:46 -0800
Subject: Re: Legal Systems

On 19 Jun 96 at 22:00, Rob Prior spewed:

> Most British common law-based systems depend heavily on precident, but a
> French friend tells me that the Code Napoleon does not depend on precident to
> the same extent (it's used as a guideline, but not actual case law, or
> something like that).

There are a few states in the US (Gulf South mostly, Louisiana in 
particular, that have elements of Code Napoleon in their laws).  
That's what I'd been led to understand about it as well...

> 
> Scottish law has a nice verdict: "not proven", giving a judge/jury a third
> option between "guilty" and "not guilty".

I wonder if this would be somewhat akin to "no contest", a 3rd plea 
in some states for certain crimes...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:01:00 -0800
Subject: Re: Symbols of Earth

On 19 Jun 96 at 9:55, Steve Charlton/Avalon Softwar spewed:

> Derek Stanly wrote:
> 
> >This I like.  I didn't realize that the Terran Confederation used the UN
> >symbol I knew the solomani used the gia symbol, circle with an +, and I
> >kinda felt that the use of the UN symbol would be in there somewhere but I
> >never knew.
> 
> Yeah, the GDW Solomani sourcebook showed the Terran Confederation symbol, which 
> was a slightly-modified UN symbol (which made snese, as the Terran 
> Confederation apparently grew out of the UN.

The Terran Confederation symbol was also featured in the board game 
Imperium, which deals with the early Interstellar Wars period, as 
well...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #123
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 20 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 124

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 
         2. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium 
         3. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
         4. Imperial Heraldry
         5. Re: Symbols of Earth
         6. unsubscribe
         7. Re: American Copywrite Law
         8. RE Corporations in space...
         9. Re: Imperial Heraldry
        10. Trading rules...
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #91
        12. Re: Meson beams
        13. Re: More Rocks & Thrusters
        14. RE: Thrusters
        15. Re: Planetary Invasions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:16:39 -0800
Subject: RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 

On 19 Jun 96 at 16:52, That Computer Guy spewed:

> As for invalidating "canon."  I'd say we shouldn't.  If for nothing
> else than it's a neat story about how the color change came about.
> 

I agree with this part, but red might look better than yellow on the 
front cover of a book.  Bright yellows tend to wash out as ink 
colors...

Suppose that MM could lose the yellow, keep the red as long as he 
saves the mythos, but that's his call.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:16:39 -0800
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium 

On 19 Jun 96 at 15:09, Paul Walker spewed:

> >Actually, I wasn't so worried about what you said.  It's just that 
> >everybody was proposing all these early Imperial symbol designs with 
> >tons of red in them, and I knew there was something wrong, but I 
> >couldn't place what it was.
> >
> >If we're going by previous canon (unless Marc wishes to invalidate 
> >it), the featured color for most early Imperial symbology should 
> >include lots of yellow...
> >
> 
> I think the red came in from the use of a red sunburst by IG.  Will MM be
> changing the "canon?"  Will the Imperial Sunburst be red or yellow?  Stay
> tuned nest week for another exciting episode or Traveller the Mailing List.
> 

This is what I suspected as well...  Frankly, the red sunburst looks 
better than a yellow would anyways, at least on a printed page.  
Bright Yellows (and who wants a dull yellow sunburst) have a tendency 
to look washed out in inks...

I guess this is 1 for Marc to decide

> Does anyone with a fast Web browser know if IG used the sunburst in any of
> the pictures they have other than in their emblem?

I've been on the pages several times over the last few weeks.  If 
there's a sunburst there (other than the use in the logos), I haven't 
seen one.

Stu 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:16:40 -0800
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

On 19 Jun 96 at 17:16, Larry Hadley spewed:

> On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> 
> > On 19 Jun 96 at 12:00, Larry Hadley spewed:
> > 
> > >    Actually, I think if they really wanted to use that, and asked
> > > permission, I don't the SJ would mind.
> > 
> > Only Steve Jackson and co. could answer this for sure, but since this 
> > is his company's trademark, I THINK HE'D MIND VERY MUCH!  
> > Companies (or at least smart ones, anyways) will usually go to ANY 
> > legal length to defend their trademarks, product names, etc...
>   
>   The key words here are "...and asked permission" as long as IG
> ackowledges SJG's copyright and _asks_, there should be no problem.
> 

Highly unlikely that SJG would allow this...especially since this is 
part of their corporate logo.  Trademarks and copyrights have a 
tendency to go away if not vigorously defended.  In college, I 
studied an old case involving Xerox.  They lost a case to a 
competitor (whose name escapes me at the moment).  They sued the competitor 
for the use of their brand name (Xerox) in sales literature.  Unfortunately, 
the court that heard the case ruled that since 'xerox' was now a commonly 
accepted and used word, Xerox no longer held a valid copyright on the 
word 'xerox'.  The same sort of thing has happened with trademarks in 
the past as well.

>   Of course, we'll never know unless MM and IG really want this bad enough
> _to_ ask. (I ain't holding my breath)

I agree...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:18:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Imperial Heraldry

Marc hasn't told us whether he's dumping the graphics that have gone before,
but I'll point them out anyway:

>From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>

>1, The Grand Survey : A gold Starburst on a blue oval.

See Grand Census, inside back cover, for IISS Survey Uniform.  

The xboat branch's symbol was developed early in the canon:
"The xboat service emblem (above) was taken from a history of Terra by
Professor Dinimbue of the University of Sylea.  The professor found records
of an organization called the Pony Express, but her knowledge of old anglic
was not complete enough to equate the word pony with the Terran horse.  The
professor translated the word as ponii, a beast of burden used on several
worlds of the Sylean Federation.  When the xboat service was organized, the
emblem was designed, even though by then the professor's mistake had been
discovered."
Loren Wiseman & Marc Miller, The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service, 6 JTAS
11, 12 (logo is also on page 12).

>2. The Imperal Senate : Imperial Gold Sunburst with a sword and fascii 

This is good history question.  We know that by 1116, the Imperial
government consists of the Emperor, the Moot, and the Bureaucracy.  The
Emperor is the emporer -- apparently a benevolent autocrat.  The Moot
consists of all of the Imperial nobility.  The Bureaucracy is not a
constitutionally recognized branch of the government, but has enormous power
and actually runs the Imperium, implementing Imperial edicts and
promulgating regulations as needed to do so.

So, was there ever an Imperial Senate?  What happened to it?

>5. Imperial Marines : A rising Sunburst, with crossed sword and starship 

The Imperial Marines just use an Imperial sunburst in distinctive colors (I
forget which -- it's in either Megatraveller Referee's Manual or Referee's
Companion, I think).

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:21:36 -0800
Subject: Re: Symbols of Earth

On 19 Jun 96 at 13:09, derek stanley spewed:

> It kinda bites that in Traveller we Solomani are the only people who have no
> redeaming qualities.  We're racists, homo supremists, and openly agressive.
> I wonder who put those qualities in the UN charter?  8)

You gotta admit that its different for the guys from Earth to play 
the heavies in a Sci-Fi setting though...  1 of the coolest parts of 
the game, IMHO.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Mark Ll. James" <m.james@ic.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:22:46 +0100
Subject: unsubscribe

unsubscribe traveller@mpgn.com Mark James
 
 Mark Ll. James             Tel.   +44(0)171 59 46944
 Network Support Group      Email    m.james@ic.ac.uk
 Centre for Computing Services
 Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:34:02 -0800
Subject: Re: American Copywrite Law

On 19 Jun 96 at 23:06, Douglas E. Berry spewed:

> *Trademark* not *copywrite*.
> 

Thanks for the distinction...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:34:03 -0800
Subject: RE Corporations in space...

On 20 Jun 96 at 10:18, Roderick Darroch Elliott spewed:

>         Exactly what I was thinking; I was planning on doing a blurb on
> letters patent companies (I've always thought they were neat; I come from a
> jurisdiction where those babies still exist).  In terms of the smaller
> corporate forms, I was thinking of writing up the Commenda and the Societas
> Navalis (medieval forms of limited partnership, one finetuned for shipping
> ventures) and some of their more recent European counterparts, which are
> pretty funky corporate beasties.
> 

A good example...

>         What I'va also been thinking of is how STL would affect securities
> markets...  and one conclusion I've come to (purely because the chaos that
> can be wreaked is too good to pass up) is that bearer securities would be a
> way around the STL roadblock in that they're a way to get evidence of share
> ownership from place to place when communications are slow.  OTOH, as I've
> pointed out, bearer securities can pose problems, which IMHO could make for
> great plot hooks.  

Another great plot hook would be the arrival and dispatch of timely 
information.  The fact that good or bad news might travel faster for 
a megacorp (with bigger resources) as opposed to Joe's Mining 
Company, is probably something that would give the Megacorps (who 
could hire faster ships at will) an edge in a lot of instances.  A 
guy with a fast ship in the right place at the right time could make 
a killing off a little company...

Your ideas on bearer securities are great...  I can see adventure 
ideas forming in my head as we speak...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:36:56 -0800
Subject: Re: Imperial Heraldry

On 20 Jun 96 at 0:18, Glenn M. Goffin spewed:

> The Imperial Marines just use an Imperial sunburst in distinctive colors (I
> forget which -- it's in either Megatraveller Referee's Manual or Referee's
> Companion, I think).

Imperial Encyclopedia, under the listing Imperial Sunburst.  Also as 
a sidebar in the players manual, if I remember correctly. 

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: mab@sdc1.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Mystic Musk Ox)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:26:24 GMT
Subject: Trading rules...

Hi all,

Just a quick question here - does anyone know
what the trading rules are going to be in MMT?

The original CT rules I felt had a lot going for
them, but I could never get on with the idea that
you always buy at 4000 Cr/ton (+/- modifiers) and
sell at 5000 Cr/ton (+/- modifiers), regardless
of what the actual goods were, that was universally
used in the later rules. Surely this is just like 
carrying freight? i.e. you are being paid a rate
for tonnage, modified slightly for the planet type,
rather than buying and selling different types
of goods.

I for one would be interested in a system that had
more of the feel of the original (but not necessarily
the same system!), to give more of that 'speculative'
feel to the trading.

back to lurking...

Mark Buckley


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 18:20:20 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #91

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> At 06:30 PM 6/17/96 PST, you wrote:
> 
> >Spaceships have an advantage over seagoing vessels. They don't sink. If
> >you knock out the drives, the ship just continues on its current
> >vector, as modified by gravity. If the ship is in orbit (or moving slow
> >enough) then it'll *stay* in orbit.
> 
> Ya.  Unfortunately when someone punches a hole in the side of a navy ship
> they may or may not float.  When someone punches a hole in the side of a
> starship you may or may not get blown out into the big black.  
> 
> Steve Gallaci did a great picture of a ship after explosive decompression in
> an Albedo module "The Drift?" just great.  Every pannel in the ship that
> might have had air behind it was bent, ripped up all the displays and
> controlls had exploded outwards, what a mess.

Sounds like *damn* poor design to me.

Just like ships are divided into sections and have watertight doors
between them, a spacegoing vessel will have pressure bulkheads and
airtight doors. During combat, you close the doors. And if a section
gets opened to space, the interior bulkheads aren't like to go, the
non-airtight doors will go first.

Controls that get damaged by exposure to vacuum will be no more likely
than ones that get damaged by water would be on a ship. 

Some vessels may even make a point of putting the crew into suits and
pumping all the air into storage when they go into battle.



Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 18:51:30 PST
Subject: Re: Meson beams

Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> writes:

>    This was covered briefly, early on in the discussion.
> 
>    There are several choices:
> 
>    1) Use neutrino sensors, less accurate but they don't have to exposed
>       to be usable.
> 
>    2) Use redundant passive EMS arrays on the surface of the planet. These
>       are vulnerable, but don't give themselves away by emmissions. 

Consider that you can have a cheap, dumb sensor as part of the power
and comm linkup at every single structure on the planet. An individual
sensor won't tell you much. But integrate the readings from it with the
reading from the other 50 million on that hemisphere and you've got
some *good* targeting info. (in effect, you've covered the planet with
a synthetic aperture array!)

And since it makes sense to have most fixed point comm traffic carried
over fiber optics (or whatever replaces them), it'll be next to
impossible to tap into the sensor feeds. Especially if the comm network
is configured like the Internet rather than the telephone system.

Short of going down an disconnecting 99% of those sensors, you aren't
going to do much to the sensor web. :-)

>    3) Use *active* EMS arrays. They give the most accurate targetting
>       solution, but gives themselves away via their emissions. Least 
>       optimal, as any kind of fire control will be blown away from orbit
>       as soon as it's detected.

It's possible to use spread-spectrum type tricks to make it hard to
tell the difference between active EMS, and static, or at least normal
"glitches". 

You basicly send the pulses at "random" intervals, and check for echoes
that match the "random" sequence. You can even have succesive pulses at
different frequencies. So, was that a ranging pulse, or just a glitch
at a transmitter? 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 19:29:03 PST
Subject: Re: More Rocks & Thrusters

Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> writes:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
> 
> >Oh yeah, it'll take 26 days for the terrorists to brake to a stop
> >(after they've jumped, if they have any brains). Where did they get the
> >fuel? Most bodies that far out are at least partial "icy" (frozen
> >water, methane, ammonia, etc). Getting fuel from that is easy.
> 
>   Nitpick here: How do they "farm" for fuel when they're travelling at
>   fractional-cee velocities? I toyed with the idea for a while and
>   concluded that it would be impractical to push, decellerate, grab some
>   fuel, accelerate, push, etc. (repeat as necessary) This would give
>   diminishing returns VERY quickly. A dedicated fueling fleet perhaps?
>   Man, you better assume this is a Black Op - no terrorist group is going
>   to have this kind of wherewithal without MAJOR support.

They pick a body that already *has* enough "ice" on it. So they are
refueling from the rock. 

>   Also, don't assume they won't be detected 'til late. MT (don't have
>   FF&S handy) says you can get passive EMS out to 2 parsecs. Seems
>   excessive to me, but the next one up says 100,000 AU. Given that
>   the jump emergence pulse will show up like a strobe, warning PD
>   (Planetary Defence) something's up, I don't think it's a unreasonable
>   to assume that PD will catch on quickly, especially that after the rock
>   starts giving off gamma from particle collisions.

The pulse is gonna be *damn* weak at 1000 AU! And you aren't going to
get much parallax on it. So is it a small ship emerging 1000 AU out, a
big ship a lot farther out, a *huge* ship a parsec out? Or maybe just a
supernova in another part of the galaxy.

Nothing else is gonna be terribly detectable by any *reasonable* sensor
system. Remember, you'd have to scan the entire sphere to a ridiculous
resolution level.

The gamma isn't going to be all that strong at first. Between distance
and low speed, you won't detect it until fairly late.

If the "rock" has the average density of water, it'll have a diameter
of about 267 meters. If it has a density of 8 (nickel iron, plus a
bit) it'll have a diameter of about 134 meters.

>   Hmm. This brings up another point. Since Traveller starships have no
>   magic force fields, perhaps this is a reasonable way to limit
>   reactionless thrusters? Radiation poisoning could ruin your whole day,
>   and it doesn't take that much V to get a nasty sunburn from particle
>   collisions.

Good reason to stay "behind" the rock, and to stay in its "wake" while
decelerating. 

> >Oh yeah, when the "rock" hits, the impact energy is only 2.40e21
> >Joules. Or 571 Gigatons.
> 
>   Even if PD doesn't catch on quick enough, a fractional-cee KKW can
>   *always* be stopped, provided a ship is available starting out
>   between the rock and the planet. Like I said trivial to prove.

Oh? Consider that the ship has to reach an "intercept" position while
the rock is in range. That makes the area that the interceptor can
start from a rather narrow cone, centered on the course of the rock,
and with the wide end at the planet.

I'm not sure whether you are planning on trying to break up the "rock"
or to deflect it. 

I wouldn't want to be the guy responsible for an attempt to break it
up. Assuming you get the missile/ship/whatever in the path of the rock
in time, you have to hope that *all* the pieces spread out far enough
to miss the planet.

If you are trying to deflect it, it'll have to be by hoping that
surface blasts will cause a thrust to deflect it. That's kinda iffy.
Odds are that you'd *break* the rocks instead.

So I can't really see what you intend as a defense. Remember, this is a
*small* target.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 23:25:37 PST
Subject: RE: Thrusters

"Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com> writes:

> You don't have to explain how things like maneuver drives work. But if
> you do, consider all of the consequences of your explanation.

The problem *is* that we have to explain how manuever drives work. At
least to the extent of "you dump in this much energy and gain that much
velocity".  And that *alone* is enough to cause the problems. We
*can't* have any less detail, because then we can't tell how fast the
ship can accelerate, or for how long, both of which are frequently
*crucial* information.

> >    Impossible. Anything that's capable of reaching escape welocity
> >    is a threat. That means *all* space craft violate your assumptions.
> 
> There is a *big* difference between a ship traveling at 20 km/s and one
> traveling at greater than 30,000 km/s.

To be capable of interplanetary travel, you need to be able to reach
30-50 km/s. Which means that even a 100 ton scout is equivalent to a
small-to-medium sized nuke.

> > >o There must be a reason to use them instead of fusion rockets
> >    There already is one - no need for reaction mass.
> 
> I'm talking about the comprehensive solution here. If thrusters cost more,
> use more fuel (even considering that used as reaction mass), are just as
> dangerous, and don't give you the same thrust, then people won't use them.

Right.

> >    *IF* you mean that there must be a reasonable power consumption, ok
> >    I agree with you.
> 
> You are right, that is what really matters. Of course, this alone could
> prevent the 0.8c planet-cracker if done right. You also will *not* get
> unlimited acceleration for a month this way unless something like the
> "zeta field" is used.

"Unlimited" acceleration is never possible. But a ship that can use the
drive continuously for a month is ok, though hard to justify. At 6g, I
about 9.8e13 meters covered (assuming 15 days of accel followed by 15
days of decel). And 25% of lightspeed at turnover. :-)

Realisticly, a ship shouldn't *need* that much delta-vee. To travel 50
AU (well beyond Pluto), it only takes a bit over 8 days at 6gs. And you
only get up to 7% of c.

> >    There is one simple problem with that last, you assume that a
> >    vulnerable planet will *always* fight. Why can't they surrender?
> 
> I don't care at all about military actions. Just make sure it is not the
> case that *every* ship can *completely* destroy a planet by dropping a
> rock on it. Sure, a ship *might* be able to screw up the ecosystem of a
> *completely unprotected* planet (destroying itself in the process), but
> that is not the same thing.

Actually, if a planet is completely unprotected, you can drop a *big*
rock on it at "normal" in-system velocities (say 30 km/s). Just nudge a
body a few km in diameter at the right time. That's all it takes for a
dinosaur killer.

It may take a lot of nudges, but you've got time. And nobody will be
able to tell that it wasn't a natural disaster.

On the whole, I think the best bet for now is to work up tables for the
hazard at various velocities. That'll discourage really high speeds. 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 23:55:15 PST
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasions

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> writes:

> Move counter-move.. remember, the French felt secure at Dien Bien Phu
> because the Viet Minh had no heavy weapons to hit the airfield.  Until the
> VM *manhandled* 105mm howitzers onto a mountaintop, and carried the ammo one
> shell at a time.

As I understand it, they took the guns *apart* and carried them piece
by piece! I do know that on the Ho Chi Minh trail, the load for a
bicyle (think of an old Schwinn or the like) was around a *ton*. 

> In Vietnam, the US invested millions in new tech to find the enemy, and it
> failed.  I believe that most Planetary Denfence Forces (PDF) will be trained
> to go to ground, organize resistence, and wait for the oppurtunity to strike.

True, true. 

> >Note that such measures also encourage surrender. Once an area has
> >surrendered, you can allow *limited* movement. So until a city
> >surrenders, it doesn't get any supplies... including *food*.
> 
> And what happens when the "pacified" area suddenly is rocked with air/raft
> bombs, and your troops are being Bobbitted by the sweet young local they've
> been seeing?

Depends. If you are the "good guys" you try to track down the
responsible parties. If you are the "bad guys", you take hotages and
execute them the next time something happens.

> I seem to recall that the RC Equipment Guide had a varient of the basic drop
> capsule that carried deadfall ordinance or a guide missle.  Put a radar
> detector in the nose, when it picks up a radar lock, it either drops all its
> bombs or launches a missle right at the set that locked it up.
> 
> >So if you shoot at something that *might* be a trooper, you are
> >inviting counter-fire from *much* bigger guns.
> 
> Not to mention the righteous fury of the guys you were shooting at.  The
> Germans learned in Sicily that aircraft were legit targets.  AAA crews that
> fired on paratroopers were massacred. 

Besides, given the sort of weaponry a jump trooper is packing, *they*
may shoot back!


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #124
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Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #125
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 20 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 125

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: law level & stuff
         2. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
         3. Re: More Rocks & Thrusters
         4. RE: Namegen program
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #123

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 20:45:00 PST
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> PC's feel naked without handguns, I can't explain it.  They're paranoid
> beyond belief.  If they don't have a Mark V Death Ray on their hips they
> can't go to the bathroom.  Mind you Gm's have a habit of sicking well armed
> thugs on them and perhaps thats something of our fault but still what's this
> obsession with weapons.  The average PC's ships locker would make an arms
> merchant drool.  I'm an offender on this account too, but I'm no where near
> as bad as the guys I game with.

I listened to my roomies playing (I wasn't crazy enough to play with
them). One time one of them used a FGMP in a back alley. Then he had to
have the GM explain to him that the police tend to notice such things. 

Aside from the *glare* (it was night), there's the EM noise, and the
"sound effects". Every cop in a couple of *miles* is going to know.

They also found out that on planets where you can carry around an FGMP
without getting stopped, the police tend to respond with things like
APCs and light grav tanks.




Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 20:17:29 PST
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> Actaully I think the DMG was in reference to Starships using Ortillery on
> the planet rather than against asteroids.  But given that the range of a MG
> is based upon barrel lenght and diameter, and because in a DMS you don't
> have to pay attention to any kind of size restrictions you could in theory
> hit something way the heck out there unfortunately the targeting time lapse
> would render it largely ineffective beyond several light minutes (the reason
> I say minutes is an asteroid, unlike a starship, is completely incapable of
> preforming any evasion or changing it's speed dramatically).  Theoretically
> though I suppose this would work.

Do realize that a chunk of rock (or nickel iron) can absorb one *hell*
of a lot more damage than a ship. There are no "critical hits". Nor is
there any "interior". Instead, you have to consider it to be a solid
slab of armor.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 19:22:37 PST
Subject: Re: More Rocks & Thrusters

jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) writes:

> => Oh yeah, when the "rock" hits, the impact energy is only 2.40e21
> => Joules. Or 571 Gigatons.
> 
> I can just see old Wile E. Coyote with his little parasol, braced for impact
> 8-)

For the sillier folks out there, there was a posting to the Star Trek
groups (years back) that had the Enterprise visting a planet giving odd
sensor readings. Turned out that it was inhabited by Wile. E. Coyote
and the Roadrunner. The consequences were "interesting". 

Just the thing for a silly, throwaway adventure ("it was all a dream")
to give the players relief from an overly serious campaign.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:43:06 -0500
Subject: RE: Namegen program

> Does anyone know where I can get namegen.zip or worldgen.zip?
> 
> This Message Was Sent With An UNREGISTERED Version Of PMMail.  
> Please Encourage Its Author To Register Their Copy Of PMMail.  
> For More Information About PMMail And SouthSide Software's Other 
> Products, Contact http://www.southsoft.com.
> 
try http://www.edu.isy.liu.se/~d91johol
I recently got both those programs from a link from that site, which has
some pretty good stuff as well.

------------------------------

From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:37:12 +0000
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #123

can somebody please convert FF&S Light to a format that can be read 
by other formats easily. while MicroSquash Word for Windoze is nice, 
its a bloody pain to convert to anything else.

Thanks in advance

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #125
**********************************

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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 20 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 126

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. unsubscribe
         2. QSDS (1.1) : Liam's designs redone
         3. Re: Calling All Engineers!
         4. I'm baaaaack!
         5. Re: law level & stuff
         6. Re: Calling All Engineers!
         7. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
         8. Re: Legal Weapons & armour
         9. Re: I'm baaaaack!
        10. Re: law level & stuff
        11. Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)
        12. Re: Calling All Engineers!
        13. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mark Ll. James" <m.james@ic.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:18:34 +0100
Subject: unsubscribe

How do I unsubscribe from this list. I've tried the usuals and they don't work.

What gives ?

 
 Mark Ll. James             Tel.   +44(0)171 59 46944
 Network Support Group      Email    m.james@ic.ac.uk
 Centre for Computing Services
 Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine


------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:42:59 +0200
Subject: QSDS (1.1) : Liam's designs redone

     I've redone my ships using QSDS 1.1 (and I found a couple of minor 
     errors in my designs).  Here are the USD's.  If anyone wants the full 
     worksheet, send me an email.
     
     1) Ajax Class Frigate
     2) Conveyor Class Auxiliary Carrier
     3) Atlantic Class Cargo Ship
     
     Cheers,
     Liam
     
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk
     
     BITS member
     

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


AJAX CLASS FRIGATE

Tons         2000          Volume      28000          Cost (Mcr)  906.5 
Crew           49          Marines        48          Low Berth       0 
Cargo         110          Controls Fib/Bridge        TL             12

 9 Size Rating                       2 Jump Rating
 4 Fire Control Rating               4 G Rating / Thrusters
 1 PA-Gun :          9-7-6-5         4 Power Plant Rating
 4 Missile Barbettes 20 (20)       621 Fuel Rating / S / R
10 Laser Turrets :   2-2-0-0         0 Meson Screen Rating
                                     5 Sand Caster Rating (150)
                                     0 Damper Rating
                                       A16 P5 J16

                                    30 Armour         25 Structure

Notes:
Slab Airframe
Spacious Hanger for 10t launch & 30t ship's boat. Enough fuel for J2 & J1.
Can scoop 800t / hr & refine 50t / hr. Improved Comms.
Engineering workshop & sickbay.
Small staterooms are provided for all crew, except for the Captain who has 
a large stateroom.

Crew Details:
Engineering: 8, Electronics: 2, Manoeuvre: 2, Gunnery: 22,
Small Craft: 5, Command: 7, Stewards: 2, Medical: 1, Marines: 48

Mission:
The Ajax Frigate is designed to "show the flag" and discourage piracy. As a 
representative of Imperial might, it can patrol systems where wending a 
cruiser would be uneconomical and/or overkill.
However, it should be more than capable of seeing off a corsair or two with 
its particle accelerator and missile barbettes, whilst defending with 
sandcasters & laser turrets.  It is not  designed to fight larger craft, so 
no meson screen is fitted.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


CONVEYOR CLASS AUXILIARY CARRIER

Tons         3000          Volume      42000          Cost (Mcr)  476.5 
Crew          116          Marines         8          Low Berth       0 
Cargo         250          Controls Fib/Bridge        TL             12

 9 Size Rating                       2 Jump Rating
 4 Fire Control Rating               2 G Rating / Thrusters
10 Laser Turrets :   2-0-0-0       0.9 Power Plant Rating
                                   607 Fuel Rating
                                     0 Meson Screen Rating
                                    10 Sand Caster Rating (300)
                                     0 Damper Rating
                                       A2 P3 J0

                                    10 Armour         23 Structure

Notes:
Close Structure, unstreamlined
Advanced Commo
Minimal Hanger for 30 t Ship's Boat
Spacious hanger for 32 10t Fighters
2 Vehicle workshops, Engineering workshop & sickbay.
Small staterooms are provided for all crew, except for the Captain who has 
a large stateroom.

Crew Details:
Engineering: 6, Electronics: 2, Manoeuvre: 2, Gunnery: 20, Command: 16, 
Stewards: 2, Medical: 1, Marines: 8, Smallcraft: 67

Mission:
The Conveyor is a hastily refitted Atlantic class cargo transport. It was 
converted at short notice under orders of the hard-pressed local Navy.
The original cargo bay was partitioned off to create extra accommodation, 
workshops and launch bays.
It provides extra fighter support in fleet actions and always operates with 
escorts to shield it from enemy craft.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------


ATLANTIC CLASS CARGO SHIP

Tons         3000          Volume      42000          Cost (Mcr)  466.3 
Crew           43          Marines         0          Low Berth       0 
Cargo        1700          Controls Fib/Bridge        TL             12

 9 Size Rating                       2 Jump Rating
 4 Fire Control Rating               2 G Rating / Thrusters
10 Laser Turrets :   2-0-0-0       0.9 Power Plant Rating
                                   607 Fuel Rating
                                     0 Meson Screen Rating
                                    10 Sand Caster Rating (300)
                                     0 Damper Rating
                                       A2 P3 J0

                                       10 Armour         23 Structure

Notes:
Close Structure, unstreamlined
Advanced Commo
Minimal Hanger for 30 t Ship's Boat
Minimal Hanger for 10 t Launch
Engineering workshop & sickbay.
Small staterooms are provided for all crew, except for the Captain who has 
a large stateroom.

Crew Details:
Engineering: 6, Electronics: 2, Manoeuvre: 2, Gunnery: 20, Command: 6, 
Stewards: 1, Medical: 1, Smallcraft: 7

Mission:
Cargo transport in medium-risk areas.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


The End.

------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:25:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Calling All Engineers!

> From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
> Subject: Calling All Engineers!
> 
> On 06/19/96 at 10:18 AM,  Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM> said:
> >Engineers just plain are not needed on non-military vessels.
> 
> If Engineers aren't needed, then *you* aren't providing a reason to
> need them!
> 
> >All other vessels, visit a starport every week.  If things need
> >fixed or maintained it is done then.
> 
> So when the "coolent regulator" breaks down while in Jump Space and
> you'll all roast to death in hours you don't need anybody aboard that
> can fix it?  When those pesky Pirates blow a hole in your hull
> wreaking your jump coil, you don't need an Engineer to jury-rig a
> temporary for that emergency jump?  When your overworked
> pilot/astrogator misjumps because she skipped the last 3 engine
> maintanace checks, you didn't need an Engineer?

What if the "coolant regulator" breaks down on your car in the
middle of nowhere? (Or, as my friends did, in the middle of downtown
Toronto, at midnight...) You don't need an engineer to fix _every_
emergency. Anyone with mechanical, electronic, robotic, gravitic,
engineering, etc-1 should do.

As for pirates, if they blow a hole in your hull, then you'll
probably be captured or killed, or both. When you're dead, 
thinghs like jump coils just don't matter like they used to.

Now, if your pilot skips 3 engine checks at starport and then misjumps,
well, big surprise. I think the low crew numbers are based
on the analogy that you run your starship like a car - you take
it in for service regularly and you don't do anything
stupid like jump from 10 diameters or ram a local SDB.

> >I think that one engineer per 500T of hull would be much more
> >realistic.  Under 500T, engineering duties are handled by the
> >flight deck crew, ah la Hans and Chewy.  500T to 999T You need an
> >engineer etc.
> 
> I don't agree, Hans and Chewy not withstanding.  <g> Then again wasn't
> Chewy the MF's engineer?

Well, I think that ifyou run a ship with 1 or 2 hands, they have to
be jack-of-all-trades, to a certain extent. Look at the kinds
of skills your typical scouts has - pilot-1,navig-1 engineer-1, etc.
He can do it all, to an extent.

Also, the MF was _heavily_ modified. Stock ships should be almost
self-maintaining, with the occasional checkup.
 
> You really need at least a crew of 2 for ships above 100tons, ie
> starships.  I say you can fly with one, but it's dangerous, stressful
> and tiring.  With 2, both should be able to fly it, fight it, and fix
> it.  With 3 you can specialize a little.  With more you can specialize
> more.  But IAC, *somebody* aboard should always have some engineering
> skill!

Well, it's only stressful when you're not in jump. Seriously,
I'd expect that automation would make piloting a Type S ship
no more stressful than driving a Ford Taurus. Auto ignition,
auto transmssion, ABS, etc.It's a long way from a Model T.

Ethan

------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:48:23 GMT
Subject: I'm baaaaack!

 
Hello all!  It's me, Cynthia Higginbotham, former owner of 
New Home and various other worlds... 
 
I finally resuscribed to the TML after falling off it for no 
explicable reason... When did this go fully automated? I'm way 
behind, so a few questions... 
 
1) What is QSDS?  Where does one find it?  
   **Never mind, I just saw Wildstar's notice.  Hi, Guy! 
 
2) MMT? 
 
3) We're *still* discussing Rock-Dropping?  ARRGGGGHHHH! 
   (TML "thread that never dies" #1...) 
 
4) Economics are still broken, it sounds like. Hello? 
   Has anyone figured out that the old CT prices were presuming 
   Imperial price controls?  Without Imperial enforcement of  
   an artificial interstellar economy, those prices are meaningless. 
   Campaigns not based in the Imperium should use different rules 
   based on real-world economics. 
 
5) Planetary Meson guns (TML "thread that never dies" #2). In both 
   HG and FF&S, those are SHORT-RANGE weapons.  An attacker can 
   sterilize the surface of your planet with long-range nuclear 
   missiles without ever getting into range... or surgically remove 
   your starports and military bases.  And, huge Asteroid Defense Lasers 
   (designed in FF&S) have longer range, do more damage at less cost 
   in money and input energy, and give you something to use on thrown 
   Rocks and invasion fleets. 
 
6) I see lots of suggestions for articles and supplements for T4. 
   Is there a "house magazine" or something like that in the works, 
   yet?  i.e., where will support materials be published?   
   Bring back JOTAS! 
 
7) If all this including CT stuff is going on *here*, what's on 
   the Xboat TML? 
 
                         --Cynthia Higginbotham, 
                           aka dragoness in some circles... 
 
- -- 
"The Internet is a telephone system that's gotten uppity." 
                                                -- Clifford Stoll 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---------- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:12:59 -0800
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

On 19 Jun 96 at 20:45, Leonard Erickson spewed:

> They also found out that on planets where you can carry around an FGMP
> without getting stopped, the police tend to respond with things like
> APCs and light grav tanks.

Or worse yet, the guys they're attacking are also carrying FGMP's, 
and wearing Battle Dress...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:15:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Calling All Engineers!

At 01:01 AM 6/20/96 -0600, Eris wrote:
>On 06/19/96 at 10:18 AM,  Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM> said:
>
>>Engineers just plain are not needed on non-military vessels.
>
>If Engineers aren't needed, then *you* aren't providing a reason to
>need them!

I didn't say engineering skills were not needed by the crew.  You don't need
a dedicated engineer on the flight.  Also, once the ship is in jump, there
doesnt have to be any one sitting at the controls.  Traders and other small
vessels are going to be a) maintained by the Captain/First Mate or b) the
Company during dock visits.  TWA doesn't pack an engineer on board their
747's.  They are maintained between flights.  NASA doesn't maintain an
engineer on board either.  The flight crew of two (Pilot and Commander) and
the passangers (Mission Specialists) are capapble of making in flight
repairs if possible.

It goes beyond that analogy but to Sci-Fi in general.  Go read the
Foundation Series.  Particularly the section on the Free Traders.  Typically
one person runs the whole ship.  "The Day the Earth Stood Still (very
classic Sci-Fi) " had a crew of one on the alien ship.

Now to Traveller, your Captain or First Mate spends time in port making
repairs and doing routine maintanence.  In fact, many Star Ports probably
require some type of check out before they let a passanger carring vessel
leave.  They spend a few hours in flight dodging astroids and pirates and
the make jump.  The crew then has 6 days to work on keeping things going,
stewarding the passangers, etc.

>>I think that one engineer per 500T of hull would be much more
>>realistic.  Under 500T, engineering duties are handled by the
>>flight deck crew, ah la Hans and Chewy.  500T to 999T You need an
>>engineer etc.
>
>I don't agree, Hans and Chewy not withstanding.  <g> Then again wasn't
>Chewy the MF's engineer?

Chewy was the First Mate.  Both Hans and Chewy did repairs, both flew the
ship, etc.  

>You really need at least a crew of 2 for ships above 100tons, ie
>starships.  I say you can fly with one, but it's dangerous, stressful
>and tiring.  With 2, both should be able to fly it, fight it, and fix
>it.  With 3 you can specialize a little.  With more you can specialize
>more.  But IAC, *somebody* aboard should always have some engineering
>skill!

Agreed here.  Someone onboard should at least be an Engineering-1.  But I
don't agree about the requirements.  A type S scout should be able to be
flown by 1 person as should a 200 T free trader.  You need someone for
companionship and to help out.  Anything under 500T should be handleable by
2 crew just fine.  The more the better, but the term "requirements" = "minimum".

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:26:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:
> 
> > Actaully I think the DMG was in reference to Starships using Ortillery on
> > the planet rather than against asteroids.  But given that the range of a MG
> > is based upon barrel lenght and diameter, and because in a DMS you don't
> > have to pay attention to any kind of size restrictions you could in theory
> > hit something way the heck out there unfortunately the targeting time lapse
> > would render it largely ineffective beyond several light minutes (the reason
> > I say minutes is an asteroid, unlike a starship, is completely incapable of
> > preforming any evasion or changing it's speed dramatically).  Theoretically
> > though I suppose this would work.
> 
> Do realize that a chunk of rock (or nickel iron) can absorb one *hell*
> of a lot more damage than a ship. There are no "critical hits". Nor is
> there any "interior". Instead, you have to consider it to be a solid
> slab of armor.

I don't recall saying you could destroy it.  I said you could hit it. 8) 
 This is kind of like going after a dinosaur with a meat tendorizor.  
Sure you can hit it but are you going to do anything to it?  Maybe, 
seeing as meson's explode withing the target, they would count as a 
tamped explosion, and this is the same principle we use for mining, 
detonating an explosive inside a rock.  It might work, you never know, 
but now you've got ten-thousand rocks coming at your planet not one.

DS

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:33:24 -0800
Subject: Re: Legal Weapons & armour

On 19 Jun 96 at 13:12, derek stanley spewed:

> Ya I'm of the opinion that battle dress is one of those "Military Only"
> pieces of equipment.  It's to dangerous to let get into the hands of Joe Public.
> 

Canon would back you up on this assertion.  I believe there are 
several references to it being military only.  Book 4, Mercenary 
(where it's introduced), for 1.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:33:24 -0800
Subject: Re: I'm baaaaack!

On 20 Jun 96 at 14:48, Dragoness Eclectic spewed:

> Hello all!  It's me, Cynthia Higginbotham, former owner of 
> New Home and various other worlds... 
>  
> I finally resuscribed to the TML after falling off it for no 
> explicable reason... When did this go fully automated? I'm way 

Quite a long time ago, actually...  I've been on the mailing list 
since early 1995.  It was automated when I got here...

> 2) MMT? 

The unofficial name for the soon to be released 4th edition of 
Traveller Rules.  The real nickname is T4.  Stands for 'Marc Miller's 
Traveller'.

Even Marc uses T4 though, so MMT is a misnomer...

>  
> 3) We're *still* discussing Rock-Dropping?  ARRGGGGHHHH! 
>    (TML "thread that never dies" #1...) 

Not me...  My filter automatically deletes anything with rock in the 
subject line...of course this prevents me from receiving posts about 
Rock Hudson, the movie "The Rock", but I figure its a small price to 
pay... ;-)

> 4) Economics are still broken, it sounds like. Hello? 
>    Has anyone figured out that the old CT prices were presuming 
>    Imperial price controls?  Without Imperial enforcement of  
>    an artificial interstellar economy, those prices are meaningless. 
>    Campaigns not based in the Imperium should use different rules 
>    based on real-world economics. 

Gotta agree here.  CT's economics rules need to be tweaked, if not 
chucked and replaced entirely...  Although for the next edition of 
Traveller, the Imperium is back...  The first set of specific 
sourcebooks are going to be set in Year Zero, I.E.

>  
> 6) I see lots of suggestions for articles and supplements for T4. 
>    Is there a "house magazine" or something like that in the works, 
>    yet?  i.e., where will support materials be published?   
>    Bring back JOTAS! 

Already happening.  Issue #25 (they're starting out where the old 
JTAS's left off) is due out in August.  It will be a bimonthly 
magazine.  Check out Imperium Games web page for more details... 

http://www.Imperiumgames.com/

> 7) If all this including CT stuff is going on *here*, what's on 
>    the Xboat TML? 

Not a whole heck of a lot anymore...lots of crossposts, but not much 
else...  

A REALLY disgruntled CT user signed off last week because FF&S (and 
its simpler variations) are going to be the design system for T4, but flamed 
us before going.  Since then, things have probably been the most harmonious 
between TNE & CT/MT grognards that I've ever seen in the 1-1/2 years I've been 
subscribing to the list. 

Ya'll ought to be proud of yourselves for that, BTW... ;-)
We've gone almost a week without anybody saying... ".......... sucks"
Fill in the blank with the system of your choice...

>                          --Cynthia Higginbotham, 
>                            aka dragoness in some circles... 

Welcome back, Cynthia.  I read tons of your postings from the older 
digests in archive format.  Nice to be trading mail bombs with the 
real person...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:36:46 -0700
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> I listened to my roomies playing (I wasn't crazy enough to play with
> them). One time one of them used a FGMP in a back alley. Then he had to
> have the GM explain to him that the police tend to notice such things.
> 
> Aside from the *glare* (it was night), there's the EM noise, and the
> "sound effects". Every cop in a couple of *miles* is going to know.
> 
> They also found out that on planets where you can carry around an FGMP
> without getting stopped, the police tend to respond with things like
> APCs and light grav tanks.

We got involved with a SAG raid on "Janie," operation "Idaho Rampant."  
Don't ask me I don't make them up.  Our party, "Task Group Pawnee" had to 
recover the FDR from a downed spy plane.  It had crashed in mountianous 
territory that was inhabited by two local rebel forces, and the Defensive 
units of the country that owned the territory.

You've never seen such an impressive display of fire works, and we didn't 
make most of them, we were just bugging out of the crash site when the 
insurgents came upon it.  Never overestimate the slowing power of booby 
traps.  It's amazing how quickly a persuing force slows down when they 
find one booby trap.  Hell half a spool of det cord and some demo tape 
work just a well, it's all psychology.

I've never been terribly big on carrying lots of weapons, I use two for 
military missions, one of which is a pistol, but some of my buddies were 
packing heat.  Three/four weapons each, they needed a golf bag just to 
organize the weapons they brough to the party.

DS

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:41:54 -0700
Subject: Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)

Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> I think my full sized Wagoneer is pretty damn near 1 displacment ton :-)
> And it's over 2 tonnes :-)
> 
> Gives me a sense of scale on smaller ships/vehicles in traveller.  My
> jeep is *big*, and unfortunately it uses enough fuel that HEPlaR fuel
> use didn't even make me blink.  I bet a Suburban is 2tons...


You know if you sit and look at it one DT is really not all that big, 
comparatively.  A suburban is pretty close to two tons, but an airraft 
comes in at three, this seems inordinatly large, espically when a grav 
bike comes in at .5 a DT, that's 7 cubic meters for a motorcycle.  I 
think what the problem is, is that a number of the internal components 
are to large and this has created slightly oversized vehicals

DS

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:46:38 -0800
Subject: Re: Calling All Engineers!

On 20 Jun 96 at 11:15, Rob Miracle spewed:

> I didn't say engineering skills were not needed by the crew.  You don't need
> a dedicated engineer on the flight.  Also, once the ship is in jump, there
> doesnt have to be any one sitting at the controls.  Traders and other small
> vessels are going to be a) maintained by the Captain/First Mate or b) the
> Company during dock visits.  TWA doesn't pack an engineer on board their
> 747's.  They are maintained between flights.  NASA doesn't maintain an

Of course, 747's aren't in the air for a week at a time, either...but 
no.  As long as you had somebody on board with engineering skills, 
under routine circumstances you wouldn't need 1.  God help your ship 
of course if your pilot doubles as the engineer and your drives take 
battle damage...

> engineer on board either.  The flight crew of two (Pilot and Commander) and
> the passangers (Mission Specialists) are capapble of making in flight

How many passengers are going to be able to make flight repairs.  I 
wouldn't trust an unskilled person to patch a hull breach, let alone 
work on something as delicate as engines...

> repairs if possible.

Yep, I can just see it.  Elvish Parsley, the performer, booking 
passage from Regina to Ruie fixing the jump drive...

"Uh, I used the long thing with the little doo-hickey to tighten down 
the thig-a-ma-jig, but I put too much pressure on it so the widget 
broke...sorry..."

> It goes beyond that analogy but to Sci-Fi in general.  Go read the
> Foundation Series.  Particularly the section on the Free Traders.  Typically
> one person runs the whole ship.  "The Day the Earth Stood Still (very
> classic Sci-Fi) " had a crew of one on the alien ship.
> 
> Now to Traveller, your Captain or First Mate spends time in port making
> repairs and doing routine maintanence.  In fact, many Star Ports probably

Actually, your captain usually spends a large part of his week 
negotiating for the sale and purchase of cargo.  Not likely to have a 
whole lot of time to even get near the drives.  

> require some type of check out before they let a passanger carring vessel
> leave.  They spend a few hours in flight dodging astroids and pirates and
> the make jump.  The crew then has 6 days to work on keeping things going,
> stewarding the passangers, etc.

What crew...  You just said that 1-2 people run the ship...  The crew 
is going to have its handsful stewarding the passengers (in shifts, since 
they can't stay awake 24 hours).  You're contradicting yourself here  
a bit, Rob...

> >>I think that one engineer per 500T of hull would be much more
> >>realistic.  Under 500T, engineering duties are handled by the
> >>flight deck crew, ah la Hans and Chewy.  500T to 999T You need an
> >>engineer etc.

> Agreed here.  Someone onboard should at least be an Engineering-1.  But I
> don't agree about the requirements.  A type S scout should be able to be
> flown by 1 person as should a 200 T free trader.  You need someone for
> companionship and to help out.  Anything under 500T should be handleable by
> 2 crew just fine.  The more the better, but the term "requirements" = "minimum".
> 

Point taken...but I'm not sure I'd want to fly on a ship as a passenger 
that didn't have a guy to man the guns, work the engines, etc...

The rules need to reflect the negative effects of having a skeletal 
crew in terms of how easy it would be to attract passengers, etc...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:50:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium 

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> This is what I suspected as well...  Frankly, the red sunburst looks
> better than a yellow would anyways, at least on a printed page.
> Bright Yellows (and who wants a dull yellow sunburst) have a tendency
> to look washed out in inks...

Actually the sunburst on the cover of the Regency stuff for TNE are both 
yellow.  They're done as a metalic yellow, ie. they look like they're 
gold, and they look pretty good.
 
> I guess this is 1 for Marc to decide
> 
> I've been on the pages several times over the last few weeks.  If
> there's a sunburst there (other than the use in the logos), I haven't
> seen one.

It isn't to the best of my knowledge.  I think that all the pictures used 
on the site are super generic, except the Elmore pic that is, so none of 
them were painted with T4 in mind.

DS

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #126
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 20 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 127

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. FF&S/QSDS Format Request
         2. Re: law level & stuff
         3. RE: Imperial Heraldry 
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #121
         5. Re: The Myth of Neutrino Sensors
         6. Re: law level & stuff
         7. MAVs?
         8. Meson gun "tracks"
         9. Re: orbital bombardment
        10. Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)
        11. Re: Imperial "Senate"
        12. Re: More Rocks & Thrusters
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #117
        14. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
        15. Re: DMSes and Rocks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 01:03:03 +0900
Subject: FF&S/QSDS Format Request

>From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
>can somebody please convert FF&S Light to a format that can be read by 
other formats easily.

Could I request RTF or Works word processor format, and Works spreadsheet 
formats?  I have Works 3 (for Win 3.1 but I use Win95), and I can't as yet 
afford Excel or Office, especially just to play Traveller.  Works does a 
very bad job of converting Excel sheets; almost every other field generates 
an error, and the sheet is useless.

I think it would be a good idea to have the files available in every format 
you can get your apps to save to, just to be friendly.

Thanks billions,

Armand


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:56:03 -0700
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> 
> On 19 Jun 96 at 20:45, Leonard Erickson spewed:

> > without getting stopped, the police tend to respond with things like
> > APCs and light grav tanks.
> 
> Or worse yet, the guys they're attacking are also carrying FGMP's,
> and wearing Battle Dress...

But aren't players who do this fun?  There's no real need to write 
adventures, they just bury themselves with regularity.

Then they whine and moan about how much trouble they're in and how none 
of it is their fault.  8)

DS

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:01:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Imperial Heraldry 

In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00: 18:28 PDT
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:01:16 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: So, was there ever an Imperial Senate?  What happened to it?

It was disbanded by the Emperor and control passed onto to the sector
govenor and Moffs.

Oops!!!  Wrong game.  8)

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:57:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #121

>From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
>Subject: Re: DMSes and Rocks
>
>On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
>> 
>> >From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
>> >On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
>> >
>> >   Nope. Think "planet".
>> 
>> Right, that's my thoughts.  Maybe I'm not understanding the concept of
>> mesons correctly, but isn't the idea similar to a bullet in that it
>> accelerates down the barrel and when it exits the barrel it goes in a
>> straight line.  Mesons can't change directions once they leave the barrel,
>> can they?  If they can't, then the only way to have a useable DMS built into
>> a planet is to have either a moveable barrel or be able to change the
>> rotation and axial tilt of your planet.
>> Am I making sense yet?
>
>   DMSes are large facilities (much larger than the majority of smaller
>starships) that have HUGE meson guns in them, not too mention extensive
>maintenance and C/C facilities for coordinating military activity. It is
>likely there won't be more than a few of these monsters *in* ;-) any but
>the heaviest populated planets.
>
>   Since MGs aren't really "popular" before grav tech becomes available,
>it's likely the whole assembly is floated/stiffened with a CG field,
>allowing truly massive structures to be assembled in a gravity well. I'd
>put such a gun in a large spherical chamber (evacuated).

OK, I get it now, when you said "think planet, I was thinking "planet =
stationary" not "planet = many kilometes of depth to use."  I guess you
could (using CG) dig out a sphere, and put the gun in it and use CG to
"create" down in any direction you wanted to fire anywhere, right?  The
length of the barrel would be dictated by how much support you could give it.


>> BTW, I missed the beginning of this debate, how would said terrorist go
>> about getting the "rock" headed in the right direction?
>
>   Basically, poke the nose of your ship into the asteroid, and light the
>engines. ;-)

Has anyone figured out how much stress this would put on a typical hull
structure to get the asteroid up to a sufficient speed?  I would think it
would do a bit of damage to the hull moving that much mass.


------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:54:30 -0700
Subject: Re: The Myth of Neutrino Sensors

Wes Payne writes

>Neutrino sensors are useless for finding fission and fusion power plants.

>Given a one-ton detector trying to sniff out a
>100 Mw fusion plant, you can expect a hit about once every 50,000 years.  

Those numbers are based on current neutrino detectors - giant tanks of 
(insert substance here) hoping for a neutrino to hit and interact with an
atom of (insert substance here) through the weak interaction, which has, as
noted, incredibly low cross-sections. 

Traveller neutrino detectors don't have to work this way. Traveller technology
includes that favourite D.E.M., the nuclear damper, with its ability to
magically mainpulate the strong and weak nuclear forces. One could easily
imagine that among the many uses for such a capability is increasing the
cross-section for neturino interactions, making neutrino sensors much more
practical. Since we're making up numbers, we can make them as practical or
impractical as game physics dictates - I'd personally make them marginally
useful for detecting fusion power plants at ranges of a few kilometers - but
we certainly don't need to be bound by what the 20th century can do.

Bruce Macintosh
bmac@igpp.llnl.gov

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:29:09 -0800
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

On 20 Jun 96 at 8:56, derek stanley spewed:

> But aren't players who do this fun?  There's no real need to write 
> adventures, they just bury themselves with regularity.
> 
> Then they whine and moan about how much trouble they're in and how none 
> of it is their fault.  8)
> 
> DS
>
Yeah, I have a tendency to punish players like this in deliciously 
sadistic ways... ;-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:54:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: MAVs?

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> said:
:shots for every 30 minute space combat term.  With the advent of MAV's, see
:Regency Combat Vehical Guide PG40, you could also supplement the fire
:capabilities of the DMS to such a point that attacking a TL15 planet with a
:DMS would be next to suicide.

:I don't want to think about the possibilities if the planet had a battallion
:of Intrepids for MAV fire support.  We're talking total carnage.

   Hmm, what's a MAV? (I don't have *any* regency source material, I'm an RC
addict)


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:55:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Meson gun "tracks"

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
[snip]
>The math is rather interesting though. 25% of the particles will decay
>in 50% of the half-life. That means that 25% of the particles in the
>beam will decay before they get halfway to the target! Likewise, 25%
>will decay in *more* than twice the half-life. Thus another 25% of the
>particles will decay at more than twice the range to target.
[snip]
>Perhaps damper technology lets them reduce the "spread" in the
>halflife?

   I would say that would be a good guess. Traveller physiscists seem
to have a good grasp of the nuclear forces, and MGs come out about the
time dampers and grav tech emerge so it wouldn't be unreasonable to
assume.

   This could explain how Traveller MG's are relatively non-interactive
with matter, compared to what we expect.

   This also gives a good way to explain how MGs get better at higher
tech levels. Early MGs are "sloppy" with poor control, so they waste a
lot of power and aren't as good at doing damage. Later versions keep the
decay rates within narrower parameters, are more efficient at generating
yield, and are less affected by matter.

   Early MG's would also be easier to track because of the meson
"droppings".


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 



------------------------------

From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:56:32 -0500
Subject: Re: orbital bombardment

 [This message may have been posted to the list already, but I haven't
 seen it go through the queue and I think that it contributes to the
 discussion.  I apologize if people have seen this already.]

I hate to break it to the anti-"rock throwing" crowd, but this "problem"
has been known of since classic Traveller days.  The Imperial Navy even
has a name for it: "deadfall bombardment".  

CruRons are tasked as orbital support for the bombardment phase, and
have attached to them a munitions replenishment vessel and a "deadfall
ordnance carrier" which would collect rocks from local moons and 
planetoid belts for this sort of thing.  (This is all from the old JTAS
article "Battle Fleets of the Marches".  It glossed over just how nasty
deadfall ordnance can be.)  High Guard also refers to using empty bays
to carry this sort of weapon (in the ship design section).

Presumably, one reason why this sort of weapon might be used instead of
nuclear weapons is due to the development of nuclear dampers.

"Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> wrote:

>recommend the account of the 5th Frontier War as written in Spinward
>Marches Campaign.  The Zhodani spent the better parts of 3 years trying to
>subdue the systems of Jewell & Efate without success.

...and at the time, Efate suffered from an active insurrection by the Ine
Givar which caused the Imperium to impose martial law on the world.  Not
a great situation for the Imperium.

The Zhodani even tried deadfall bombardment attacks on Efate.  They tried 
to sneak a captured _Broadsword_ through the defenses and crash it into 
the main Imperial garrison with a vector of about 30 km/s.  The plan was
to jump it into system under computer-controlled Auto/Evade, and use naval
units to engage the defenses in a pitched battle on the other side of the
world.  This was the amber zone adventure "A Dagger at Efate" in an old
JTAS.  It probably fails -- system control spots it stepping out of jump
space immediately, and dispatches the PCs to investigate.  (My vector
estimate comes from the knowlege that the safe jump distance from Efate
is 3.2 light-seconds, and from the time limit set in the adventure.) 

Rough estimates of the effect of the impact:
  Assume that a _Broadsword_ masses about 8000 metric tonnes.
  Assume surface gravity, Efate, is about 0.75 G (crater figures).

According to the equations in the sci.space.science FAQ, the ship will
strike with an energy of 860 kT, digging a crater 640 meters in diameter.
5 psi overpressure to 6.6 km (high enough to cause total destruction to 
urban areas).  Third degree burns to 11 km.  Impact was eight hours after
jump breakout.  The damage estimates are based on some figures for the 
effects of nuclear weapons.  

Let's change the scenario.  Instead of sneaking in, the Zhodani thrust
at 3 gee the whole way in from jump breakout.  Initial velocity is still
30 km/s.  Breakout is at 3.2 light-seconds.  Now they burn 15 G-turns to 
impact after a bit over two and a half hours.  Impact velocity is about
290 km/s (0.001 c).  Impact energy is 80 MT.  Crater diameter adjusted 
for Efate is about 2000 meters.  5 psi overpressure to 30 km.  Third 
degree burns to 70 km.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>



------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:18:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)

At 02:35 PM 6/19/96 -0700, Wes wrote:
>Thus spake Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>:

>By 'basic game,' do you mean Classic Traveller, or the starship economics 
>rules in the (yet unpublished) Traveller Version 4?  I believe you refer 
>to the latter, since it's already been established that we can't have a 
>design system firmly compatible with the CT design systems and with QSDS, 
>FF&S Lite, and FF&S itself (which is the basis for the previous two systems).

I mean by the T4 yet to be published rules, which if history is any
indication will look just like CT, MT, and TNE.

>Economic Viability of commercial starships has been a pet peeve of mine 
>for a long time.  With MT, and more so with FF&S, it was hard to build a 
>ship with enough hold space to pay for itself.

It is supposed to be tough to make it.  I don't mind that.  I mind it when
it becomes impossible.  With the later design sequences, it appears that
they were more and more designed to be scientifically accurate with out
regards for the fact that they were part of a game.  How would Monopoly work
if in the 437th printing you started getting $2000 per rail road because
rail roads have to be like real life.  Forget the rest of the game, trains
are going to work right.


>  With this in mind, we 
>definitely should NOT re-instate the CT rule of 10% internal space for 
>jump fuel per jump number.  With FF&S ships, I found myself tempted to 
>install over-capable jump drives (and collapsible fuel bladders) just for 
>the sake of jump fuel efficiency.

I don't mind the 10% jump fuel.  It keeps most ships down to J1 and J2 which
is a game balance thing.  J4-6 should pretty much be Military Spec only.
Don't know too many commerical air liners powered by a Pratt and Whitney
F100 Turbofan.

>Here are some potential solutions to the problem:
>
>Make ships less expensive -- mucking about with the cost of opponents 
>(rather than other properties, such as weight and volume) doesn't affect 
>compatablility and canon.

This is a good option.  With the latest QSDS release (1.1) prices for ships
are reasonable.  I built a Free Trader last night, with a few extra's for
less than the Book 2 Free Trader.

>Increase Income -- Let's face it:

[snipped, see below]

>While I'm Ranting:  The trade and commerce rules, as presented in MT and 
>TNE, needed work.  There are some things (like official documents and 
>currency) that, if handled in one-ton lots, wouldn't be handled by 
>ordinary civilians.  Also, those rules presume that some goods won't be 
>more valueable than others.  Example:  Since when do weapons have the 
>same base price per ton as does mineral ore, or flavored water?  I can 
>see where the trade and commerce rules were 'dumbed up' for the sake of 
>simplicity, but they also made it harder to turn a profit, even when 
>suffering wild success in the cargo speculation business.

There are a few specific things that need to be addressed here:

    Standard Cargo: 1000Cr / Ton
    This is competion here.  The game needs to allow some flexability in 
    charged rates.  People are going to go with the lowest cost shipper in
    most cases.  And people should be prepared to pay more to get it there
    quicker.  But you have to remember, in the grand scale of Trade and
    Commerce, that you, Mr. Free Trader, are picking up the special cargos
    and left overs.  The Big lines who can do jump-3 or jump-4 have gotten
    the high speed delivery contracts, and large bulk shipments.  There could
    be a traders union which kinda requires people to keep prices somewhat
    consistant.  I would like to see this addressed and include some rules
    for varying the rates based on speed, and such.  We will have to wait and
    see.  Most of this goes for passangers as well.

    Speculative Trading:
    This has been broken since Book 7 The Merchant Prince.  I cannot fathom
    a ton of computers and a ton of wheat costing the same.  CT's trading  
    system was cool, but it needed to be extended to include a lot more cargo
    types.  36 Cargos was not a lot.  I felt that the new rules were generic
    and felt cold.  My players never wanted a part of trading again.  That
    chance to get Gem Stones in route to a rich world would drive them bonkers
    but to pickup Cargo X at Cr4000 that will have a +3 on the die roll at a 
    Rich world just wasn't the same.

So I await T4.  I will accept whatever Trade Rules are there, but we can
dream that they have been fleshed out.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:19:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Imperial "Senate"

sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin) wrote:

>This is good history question.  We know that by 1116, the Imperial
>government consists of the Emperor, the Moot, and the Bureaucracy.  The
>Emperor is the emporer -- apparently a benevolent autocrat.  The Moot
>consists of all of the Imperial nobility.  The Bureaucracy is not a
>constitutionally recognized branch of the government, but has enormous power
>and actually runs the Imperium, implementing Imperial edicts and
>promulgating regulations as needed to do so.
>
>So, was there ever an Imperial Senate?  What happened to it?

It appears to me that the Moot is what's left of the Sylean Grand Senate.
The Senate has representatives of all the Imperial worlds, has the power
to dissolve the Imperium, advises the Emperor on legislation, and has the
power to confirm Imperial successors.  I'm sure we'll find out one way or
another soon, but my suspicion is that the Senate re-structured itself
into a more "General Assembly" style Moot when they made President Zhunastu
the Emperor.

Actually, the bureaucracy is a perfectly recognized part of the government.
It's all the executive ministries under the Emperor.  Whether or not the
Imperium as a whole has an actual constitution is unknown.
 
  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:23:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: More Rocks & Thrusters

On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> writes:
> > shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
> > 
> >   Also, don't assume they won't be detected 'til late. MT (don't have
> >   FF&S handy) says you can get passive EMS out to 2 parsecs. Seems
> >   excessive to me, but the next one up says 100,000 AU. Given that
> >   the jump emergence pulse will show up like a strobe, warning PD
> >   (Planetary Defence) something's up, I don't think it's a unreasonable
> >   to assume that PD will catch on quickly, especially that after the rock
> >   starts giving off gamma from particle collisions.
> 
> The pulse is gonna be *damn* weak at 1000 AU! And you aren't going to
> get much parallax on it. So is it a small ship emerging 1000 AU out, a
> big ship a lot farther out, a *huge* ship a parsec out? Or maybe just a
> supernova in another part of the galaxy.

   The point is, they'd get a clue something's up. Vector a ship in the
Right Direction, Point a sensor In The Right Direction.

> >   Even if PD doesn't catch on quick enough, a fractional-cee KKW can
> >   *always* be stopped, provided a ship is available starting out
> >   between the rock and the planet. Like I said trivial to prove.
> 
> Oh? Consider that the ship has to reach an "intercept" position while
> the rock is in range. That makes the area that the interceptor can
> start from a rather narrow cone, centered on the course of the rock,
> and with the wide end at the planet.

> So I can't really see what you intend as a defense. Remember, this is a
> *small* target.

   Leonard, I'm disspointed in you.

   You're a ship Captain, you've just got word from PD that a frac-cee
weapon is on it's way. You are in a position to *intercept* the course of
the rock, your FAMILY is on the planet, your HOME TOWN is on the planet.
Do I have to get any clearer than that?? <g>

   I calculate the impact energy at about 1.8e21 J - should be enough to
vape the rock. (Assuming 6G and a 400td [4000mt] PC) 

   I imagine the crew would offload before heading out, leaving a skeleton
volunteer crew to leave on the Cutter/Pinnace/LB after they're close
enough to guarantee a hit.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 18:34 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #117

In-Reply-To: <199606191200.IAA18205@NS.MPGN.COM>

In message , owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM said:
> From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996
> 23:46:25 -0800 Subject: Re: law level & stuff
>  
> On 18 Jun 96 at 18:28, derek stanley spewed:
>  
>> "Lets see it's tuesday, the sun is in neptune and the planet is in a
>> retrograde orbit around a blue sun.  I think I'll go with the shot gun for
>> this fellow, Caddy, my shotgun please."
>  
> ROTFL... :-)

Hey, don't laugh - I *know* people like that. One guy actually wanted a
grav-sled to carry all his guns...

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96
> 00:07:52 PST Subject: Meson gun "tracks"
>  
> In real life, the time that they decay is a "half-life". In other words,
> half of the mesons will have decayed by that time, the other half will
> decay in a longer period.

A thought: how will you detect this 'meson beam'?

> From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:30:26
> +1000 Subject: Re: Imperial Heraldry
>  
> Here are some ideas for symbology :
>  
> 1, The Grand Survey : A gold Starburst on a blue oval. (A field of stars
> exploding from a central spot in the middle,  representing Sylea)

Weren't all the IISS symbols defined in one of tthe DGP books?


                      --------=====OOO=====--------
Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."

------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:35:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

At 08:48 PM 6/19/96 -0700, Doug Berry wrote:
>At 06:47 PM 6/19/96 -0400, Wes Payne wrote:
>
>>> IMPERIAL INTERSTELLAR SCOUT SERVICE:
>>
>>Sorry to say, but this one's already been done.  The first place I saw it 
>>was DGP's "World Builder's Handbook" published for MT.
>
>It was in DGP's "World Builder's Handbook" first.  Since the canon has the
>ponii symbol being used for the X-boat system, and not adopted until after
>the civil war, I was proposing the *original* symbol.

The IISS logo first showed up in JTAS.  It was in JTAS 5 or JTAS 6 probably
(I confimred it in Best of JTAS vol 2, (selected articles from JTAS 5-8)).
This was written by Marc Miller and Loren Wiseman and was published a long
time before DGP's World Builders Handbook.

Rob


- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:47:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: DMSes and Rocks

On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> 
> >From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
> >Subject: DMSes and Rocks
> >
> 
> Right, that's my thoughts.  Maybe I'm not understanding the concept of
> mesons correctly, but isn't the idea similar to a bullet in that it
> accelerates down the barrel and when it exits the barrel it goes in a
> straight line.  Mesons can't change directions once they leave the barrel,
> can they?  If they can't, then the only way to have a useable DMS built into
> a planet is to have either a moveable barrel or be able to change the
> rotation and axial tilt of your planet.
> Am I making sense yet?

See my earlier post about magneto/gravitic lenses for this beast. You 
would either need that or you would have to have the emplacement in a 
spherical room on a gimbles (free to point in any direction). This is 
simpler than the lenses. Even simpler still would be to put the DMG on a 
rotating platform like a carousel but then you would have to wait until 
the planet is in the right position to fire and this could be up to 24 
hours. Of course you could cut this time by having multiple DMGs.

Chris
- --
      __o          "All I was doing was trying to get home from work."
    _`\<,_           -Rosa Parks
___(*)/_(*)___________________________________________________________
Christopher Sean Hilton                           <chris@vindaloo.com>
                           For pgp key finger: <chilton@shoga.wwa.com>


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #127
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 20 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 128

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: DMSes and Rocks
         2. Stress on hulls
         3. Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #117
         5. Tanks and Trees
         6. Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters & Planet Killers (oh my!)
         7. Re: Psycopathic crowbars?
         8. Re: your mail
         9. RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 
        10. Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)
        11. House Trade Rules
        12. Missing RC Ships
        13. Re: law level & stuff

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:34:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: DMSes and Rocks

On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Larry Hadley wrote:

> 
> On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
> > >From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
> > I know nothing about the physics, or supposed physics of Mesons, but if
> > their range is based on barrel length and diameter, wouldn't you have to
> > allow a deep site to have a barrel that could be rotated to face any
> > direction.  This would sorta put a limit on how big it could actually be, 
> > right?
> 
>    Nope. Think "planet".
> 

This is correct. You could use the planets rotation to help point the 
meson gun but wouldn't it be better to just have some sort of a big 
magnetic (for charged mesons) or gravitic lens to aim the charge at the 
the end of the accelerator barrel. I don't know what cannon is on these 
meson guns and my physics geek friend doesn't get here for another two 
months so if this question is stupid send me a private e-mail to get up 
to speed.

>      If the "rock" is actually a carbonaceous chondrite with a
> heterogenous makeup, all bets are off - this thing'll fragment at the drop
> of a hat.
> 

You're not attempting to blow up the rock, that's good for the 
terrorists. You're attempting to blow up the Free Trader or Scout ship 
towing the rock before it gets up to a significant velocity. The DMG is 
of no use towards this though because it cannot reach out to 100AU or so 
to hit the terrorists where they are accellerating the rock. 

Chris 
- --
      __o          "All I was doing was trying to get home from work."
    _`\<,_           -Rosa Parks
___(*)/_(*)___________________________________________________________
Christopher Sean Hilton                           <chris@vindaloo.com>
                           For pgp key finger: <chilton@shoga.wwa.com>


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:38:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Stress on hulls

 

On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
> >> BTW, I missed the beginning of this debate, how would said terrorist go
> >> about getting the "rock" headed in the right direction?
> >
> >   Basically, poke the nose of your ship into the asteroid, and light the
> >engines. ;-)
> 
> Has anyone figured out how much stress this would put on a typical hull
> structure to get the asteroid up to a sufficient speed?  I would think it
> would do a bit of damage to the hull moving that much mass.

   Well, first off your thrust doesn't increase, so the hull should handle
it. (Your G drops as the combined mass of rock and ship) Secondly, a
terrorist ship wouldn't necessarily CARE about damage to the ship. "Just
close the for'd bulkhead hatch so we can keep breathing, Mike"

   My Patrol Ships are all close configuration, and designed to push rocks
so damage isn't a concern there. 

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 11:16:07 -0800
Subject: Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)

On 20 Jun 96 at 13:18, Rob Miracle spewed:

> 
> I mean by the T4 yet to be published rules, which if history is any
> indication will look just like CT, MT, and TNE.
> 
> >Economic Viability of commercial starships has been a pet peeve of mine 
> >for a long time.  With MT, and more so with FF&S, it was hard to build a 
> >ship with enough hold space to pay for itself.
> 
> It is supposed to be tough to make it.  I don't mind that.  I mind it when
> it becomes impossible.  With the later design sequences, it appears that
> they were more and more designed to be scientifically accurate with out
> regards for the fact that they were part of a game.  How would Monopoly work
> if in the 437th printing you started getting $2000 per rail road because
> rail roads have to be like real life.  Forget the rest of the game, trains
> are going to work right.

I agree.  Whatever the ship design system looks like in the game, it 
must work with the economic system, and with the combat system.  Just 
being able to work 1, but not the other, won't cut it.

> I don't mind the 10% jump fuel.  It keeps most ships down to J1 and J2 which
> is a game balance thing.  J4-6 should pretty much be Military Spec only.
> Don't know too many commerical air liners powered by a Pratt and Whitney
> F100 Turbofan.

True...

> >Here are some potential solutions to the problem:
> >
> >Make ships less expensive -- mucking about with the cost of opponents 
> >(rather than other properties, such as weight and volume) doesn't affect 
> >compatablility and canon.

Very, very true...

> This is a good option.  With the latest QSDS release (1.1) prices for ships
> are reasonable.  I built a Free Trader last night, with a few extra's for
> less than the Book 2 Free Trader.
> 
> >Increase Income -- Let's face it:
> 
> [snipped, see below]
> 
>     Standard Cargo: 1000Cr / Ton
>     This is competion here.  The game needs to allow some flexability in 
>     charged rates.  People are going to go with the lowest cost shipper in
>     most cases.  And people should be prepared to pay more to get it there
>     quicker.  But you have to remember, in the grand scale of Trade and
>     Commerce, that you, Mr. Free Trader, are picking up the special cargos
>     and left overs.  The Big lines who can do jump-3 or jump-4 have gotten
>     the high speed delivery contracts, and large bulk shipments.  There could
>     be a traders union which kinda requires people to keep prices somewhat
>     consistant.  I would like to see this addressed and include some rules
>     for varying the rates based on speed, and such.  We will have to wait and
>     see.  Most of this goes for passangers as well.

A better system than a standard Cr 1000 ton would be to base not only 
quantity of freight, but shipping cost on starport class.  For 
example, a guy looking to ship his cargo from a starport E, where 3-4 
ships might land in a week, is going to be willing to pay a higher 
rate per ton than a guy who is shipping the same stuff from a 
starport A, where the ships are too numerous to count.  An ideal 
system might use a matrix, cross-indexing destination port with 
source port, and come up with a base number that could then be rolled 
by a random multiplier... 

>     Speculative Trading:
>     This has been broken since Book 7 The Merchant Prince.  I cannot fathom
>     a ton of computers and a ton of wheat costing the same.  CT's trading  
>     system was cool, but it needed to be extended to include a lot more cargo
>     types.  36 Cargos was not a lot.  I felt that the new rules were generic
>     and felt cold.  My players never wanted a part of trading again.  That
>     chance to get Gem Stones in route to a rich world would drive them bonkers
>     but to pickup Cargo X at Cr4000 that will have a +3 on the die roll at a 
>     Rich world just wasn't the same.

Yup, a ton of wheat does not equal a ton of 28.8 modems, to use a 
present day example...

I play with MT rules, but still find myself using the old CT cargo 
system, which was much better than the generic Merchant Prince rules, 
which were the basis for MT & TNE.

> So I await T4.  I will accept whatever Trade Rules are there, but we can
> dream that they have been fleshed out.
> 

Maybe we ought to work on a better set of trade and cargo rules...

If somebody wants to throw some ideas my way, I'd be happy to put 
something in writing...  I have my own ideas, but let me know what 
somebody else might want...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 11:16:07 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #117

On 20 Jun 96 at 18:34, Andrew Boulton spewed:

> >> "Lets see it's tuesday, the sun is in neptune and the planet is in a
> >> retrograde orbit around a blue sun.  I think I'll go with the shot gun for
> >> this fellow, Caddy, my shotgun please."
> >  
> > ROTFL... :-)
> 
> Hey, don't laugh - I *know* people like that. One guy actually wanted a
> grav-sled to carry all his guns...

So do I...

In my very early days as a Traveller referee, I had a guy who tended 
to think that NPC's were put on Earth for 1 reason, and 1 reason 
only...  Target Practice...

The good news is that the rest of the party was much more rational 
than he was and detested him.  Quite often he'd get the party 
involved in a fight, only to watch the rest of the party back away, 
as though they had no idea who he was.  Then he'd wind up fighting 5 
people by himself (or rather getting killed by 5 people)... 

Sometimes, they'd actively plot ways to kill him..

I laughed at this because I know the type...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:27:45 -0400
Subject: Tanks and Trees

Thus Spake Douglas Berry:

"Second, a personal anecdote:  I was chosen to be pointman for a patrol one
night, and issued a set of AN-PVS/5 Goggles (Light Intensifier Goggles).
These are difficult to use, as there are no shadows at night.  We were
scouting for an armor unit.. 12 M1 tanks.  Should be easy, right?  I was
walking along when I ran into something head first.  At first I thought it
was a tree branch, but on closer inspection..

"I had walked into the muzzle of a 105mm main gun.  I never saw the damn
thing, and I was 3 METERS from it.  The crew inside were amused, they had
seen us from 600m with the thermographic sights."

ROTFLOL & HMS!

Fred Kiesche
(Former DAT--Dead Assed Tanker Type)
(FKiesche3@aol.com)

(...but then again, I've been in wargames where a bunch of sneaky infantry
types shot us in the posterior...but there's also the time I took out two
APC's armed with nothing but a .45 pistol...ask me sometime.)


------------------------------

From: Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:04:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters & Planet Killers (oh my!)

On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com> writes:
> 
> > This means nothing to a civilian ship willing to use its fusion rockets
> > to torch a city. You must keep ships with fusion rockets well away from
> > your planet. Yet in Traveller, civilian ships regularly land on planets,
> > dock at stations, etc. Therefore, they must not use fusion rockets (at
> > least not ones that are capable of that kind of destruction).
> 
> Since I don't have a copy of FF&S, I'm dropping back to the "old"
> theoretical figures for a fusion rocket. That's an Isp of roughly
> 600,000. (exhaust velocity = 5.88e6 m/s)
> 
> 
> And it *is* going to burn a hole. The kinetic energy of the jet is
> 86e12 W or 86 terawatts.  But as I noted above, it's *very*
> concentrated. It'll go thru rock like an acetylene torch thru
> styrofoam.
> 
> So if you want to "torch" a city, you are going to have to *hover* on
> your exhaust, and then walk it back and forth across the city. 
> 
> Me, I'd have some cheap heat seeker missiles armored to withstand the
> drive flame for long enough to explode inside the drive. There's *no*
> way you are going to avoid that. Or survive it.
> 

Thanks for the impulse figures, they make it much easier to figure out 
what the effects of these drives is going to be. I wouldn't want to 
release 86 TeraWatts of heat energy into the biosphere of a planet as a 
regular part of day-to-day business though. That kind of heat would be 
very difficult to remove.

The way I ran my campaign the captain would use gravitic generators to lift 
the ship out of the atmosphere (if any) and then the fusion drive to push 
the ship around in system. There was no speed limit but what fuel you 
could carry so there was nothing keeping the captain of a 200 tonne free 
trader from picking up a 10 tonne rock in the asteroid belt and lobbing 
it at the surface of the mainworld (pushing it out of the cargo hold just 
in time of course.)

This is a terrible amount of power for player characters to have but _it 
could not be avoided_ without resorting to Bugs Bunny physics. I kept the 
rule in place and let the players know that these antics would not be 
allowed by frequent encounters with Close escorts and such.

Chris
- --
      __o          "Candy Apple Grey"
    _`\<,_           -Bob Mould/Gary Hart
___(*)/_(*)____.___o____..___..o...________ooO..._____________________
Christopher Sean Hilton                           <chris@vindaloo.com>
                         For pgp key finger: <chilton@cluster.mcs.net>



------------------------------

From: Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:51:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Psycopathic crowbars?

On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

> 
> Cristopher Sean Hilton wrote:
> 
> >
> >It's pointless to try to bend Traveller physics around the problem when 
> >it would be much easier to deal with it as one would in the real 
> >universe where it is a real problem. The mindset of the traveller 
> >society would be that only a psycopath would drop a rock on a 
> >planet. Anyone caught doing that would be treated like a psycopath.
> >
> >BTW: This is the logical extension of the "smart crowbar" idea that 
> >bouncing around here too.
> 
>         What... so it's ok to roast someone with a plasma rifle, fry a ship
> with a meson gun, shoot people with any number of slug weapons, etc, etc
> ,etc, but a simple kinetic-kill smart munition is somehow the weapon only of
> madmen?

Nope, I was intertwining the lifeboat at 0.1c thread with the baseballs at
30km/s thread. To drop an asteriod on a city would be the work of a
madman. To drop 1000 baseballs on a field of grav tanks is the work of a
simple navy gunner.  BTW I was wrong here too. pretty much anything moving
at 0.1 c will make it to the surface all the way through the atmosphere. 

Chris
- --
      __o          "Candy Apple Grey"
    _`\<,_           -Bob Mould/Gary Hart
___(*)/_(*)____.___o____..___..o...________ooO..._____________________
Christopher Sean Hilton                           <chris@vindaloo.com>
                         For pgp key finger: <chilton@cluster.mcs.net>


------------------------------

From: Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:15:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: your mail

On Fri, 14 Jun 1996, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

> >
> [The Rock Dropping snipped]
> >Ya cool.  But cool in the way people rubber neck at an accident scene cool.
> >Personally I think that we should really drop this concept.  The idea of
> >dropping a boulder on a planetoid at 10,000 KPS is pretty morally repugnant
> >and it goes against everything that the Traveller universe CT MT TNE and T4
> >beleive in.  THough I wouldn't put it past Lucan.
> 
>         Well, the thing is though is that it's not hard to do... so somebody
> is sure to do it at some point (and stopping it from happening might make a
> neat segment of a campaign).  I'd argue for including it, purely because I
> tend to prefer darker, grittier game seetings over squeaky-clean,
> family-values-oriented type game settings where everyone wears drycleaned
> designer jumpsuits, drinks Synthohol, and obeys the Prime Directive :).

Oh gawd, no, the world of the future will be a wonderful place and we 
will have eliminated poverty, hunger, and all the other inefficiencies of 
that any human economy would have by simply saying "make it so". 

Seriously thank goodness for one other person who things that the star 
trek universe is to preposterous to believe.

Chris
- --
      __o          "Candy Apple Grey"
    _`\<,_           -Bob Mould/Gary Hart
___(*)/_(*)____.___o____..___..o...________ooO..._____________________
Christopher Sean Hilton                           <chris@vindaloo.com>
                         For pgp key finger: <chilton@cluster.mcs.net>


------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:42:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Symbols of the New Imperium 

In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13: 35:24 EDT
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:42:25 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: At 08:48 PM 6/19/96 -0700, Doug Berry wrote:
: >At 06:47 PM 6/19/96 -0400, Wes Payne wrote:
: >
: >>> IMPERIAL INTERSTELLAR SCOUT SERVICE:
: >>
: >>Sorry to say, but this one's already been done.  The first place I saw it 
: >>was DGP's "World Builder's Handbook" published for MT.
: >
: >It was in DGP's "World Builder's Handbook" first.  Since the canon has the
: >ponii symbol being used for the X-boat system, and not adopted until after
: >the civil war, I was proposing the *original* symbol.
: 
: The IISS logo first showed up in JTAS.  It was in JTAS 5 or JTAS 6 probably
: (I confimred it in Best of JTAS vol 2, (selected articles from JTAS 5-8)).
: This was written by Marc Miller and Loren Wiseman and was published a long
: time before DGP's World Builders Handbook.

Hell, this article was even a long time before Scouts.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:20:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)

At 11:16 AM 6/21/96 -0800, Stu wrote:
>Maybe we ought to work on a better set of trade and cargo rules...
>
>If somebody wants to throw some ideas my way, I'd be happy to put 
>something in writing...  I have my own ideas, but let me know what 
>somebody else might want...

Thats a good idea except for:

a) Its probably too late, but it might make a supplement or JTAS article.

b) We haven't been asked to input on that yet :-)

So with that aside:

There are three parts to the trade system, freight (includes passangers),
trading, and charters.  Charters may be best left to role playing, but if
the system gives the new GM a starting point, it would be benificial.

Freight:
   Strengths:
       Simple
       Factors in TL, population, and danger codes (Amber, Red)
       Factors in special handling.
       
   Weaknesses:
       Brainless (this is a good thing and a bad thing)
       Does not factor in distances, or trade codes.  A Barren world is
          less likely to attract passangers and a rich world is going to attract
          more.
       Does not factor in Starport Quality.
       Others?

Trading:
   Need to expand the CT Trading columns.  Factor in more planetary trade
codes. 
   CT only used six of the 10 or so.  I think we should include things like
   Sector and sub-sector capitals, research stations as affecting some goods,
   in particular information.

Rob

    

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 20 Jun 1996 15:38:08 GMT
Subject: House Trade Rules

I've used a modified set of Book 2 trade rules for years.  I sent the full
version off to IG (and haven't heard back yet), but here is a summary:

TRADE TABLES

Every planet has unique trade tables, just as every planet has unique animal
encounter tables.  These look like those in CT Book 2, except that:

a) There is a base cost (for buying) and a base price (for selling).  
b) There are no purchase DMs (figured into the base cost already).
c) Referee adds names (just as for animals).
d) Goods also have a 'volatility factor' (see below)


BUYING

Players must first find a 'good deal'.  This is a task:

To find a good trade deal:
<difficulty>.  Trader, Streetwise. 6 hours.
Referee: Difficulty is based on planetary population (Lo=Difficult,
Mod=Routine, Hi=Simple).  Use standard rules for retries (ie harder unless
you wait or have JoT).

Players should role-play the purchase.  Roll on the purchase table as usual,
but modify with (a) how well they role-played and (b) their Bargaining skill.


SELLING

Players must find a buyer.  This is a task:

To find a buyer:
<difficulty>.  Trader, Streetwise. 6 hours.
Referee: Difficulties as for buying.  Modify task as necessary for local
circumstances (eg. food will always be purchased in a famine!)

Players should also role-play the sale.  This is where volatility comes in. 
Some goods are more volatile, and so their final price tables go farther to
the extremes.  (Eg. 10% to 800%)  Roll on the appropriate final price table,
modified with bargaining skill and the Sale DMs for that good.


CONSTRUCTING TRADE TABLES

Without posting loads of tables, here is the procedure:

First, pick a template table.  Table size is based on plantary population: Lo
get 1D, Mod gets 2D, Hi gets 3D.  (This is a Q&D way to represent greater
economic variety.)

Fill in tables with general good classes (rather like MT good classes eg. raw
materials, refined materials...).  Mods to this based on world trade class.

>From general trade class, create specific good:

a) Roll for description (eg. machine parts).
b) Roll to modify base cost & price.
c) Record sale DMs
d) Roll for lot size (modified by population).
e) Name good (eg. grapple grommets)

The completed line would look something like this:

Grapple Grommets (machine parts)    1500Cr/2200Cr  Ni+1, In-2  1D x 1kL (5
tonne)

Thus, grapple grommets can be purchased for a base cost of 1500Cr per kL, and
sold for a base price of 2200Cr per kL.  There are 1D lots available, and
they mass 5 tonnes per kL.


COMPUTER ASSISTANCE: Needless to say, I don't roll up these tables by hand! 
That's what spreadsheets are for.


NOTE: I put all my prices on a per kL basis, just so I had a standard of
comparison.  For vehicles/weapons/etc (stuff that already had prices) I just
used those with a fudge factor for packing space.

Also, the full version (which I only used for a trading campaign) included
rules for faulty goods, trade restrictions, etc.  In retrospect it was too
complicated, but I that campaign ended before I could simplify the rules.


Comments?

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 15:51:25 -0400
Subject: Missing RC Ships

Derek Stanley wrote:
>Unfortunately they are part of the orginal 12 so we still have no idea what
>happens to the others. Suggestions anyone?

Well what possibly could be the reasons, then we can decide which ones
are the most exciting. I think the Astubula (I really should try to
remember how to spell that name, what does it mean anyway?) should have
an epic fate, something that the players will get excited about, its
rescue? would bring in several highranking Navy brass.  It should be
something different then all the rest.

1) A TED has captured the ship,  ITs been done before, ALOT!

2) Virus got the ship, either infected it, or a Vampire Ship blew it
up. Again its been done before.

3) The Guild captured or Blew up the ship.  Also been done before.

4) The Hivers got the Ship.  But why would the Hivers want the ship,
they are supposed to be our friends. :)  I think I might spread rumors
that the Ashtabula has been captured by the Hivers, and that is at one
of the Hiver Staging Grounds.  The players try investigate, and get
warned away.  Of course the Hivers don't have the ship, but someone
wants friction to form between the RC and the Hivers.  In my campaign
it will be a Hiver Shadow Nest.

5) Ship just broke down,and needs repairs, it sits on a distant planet,
trying to build a new jump drive out of a few cocoanuts and chewing
gum.  Kind of dull, but might work for one of the Victrixs

6) Ship misjumped and is  in another sector, it heroically tries to
fight its way back to the RC, on the way discovering strange new
civilizations.  Well, this is ST:Voyager, would make an interesting
campaign, but doesn't bring around an adventure for the players, again
it might make sense for one of the Victrixs.

7) The Crew turned traitor and stole the ship, and is now working for a
TED/Solee/Guild or independent pirates.  This is kind of neat, but I
don't think it works for the Ashtubula, it was the Flagship of the
fleet, doesn't seem like they would station anyone but the best on
board. Again maybe one of the other shps.

8) The ship isn't actually missing, it was sent on a secret mission to
do something or other, so the RC said it was lost.

9) The Crew found a mission that was more important than the RC, I
don't know, fighting against an ancient enemy from beyond the stars or
something.  Guess I have been watching too much Babylon 5.

10) The Crew found out a dirty little secret of the RC, or a high
ranking official, and the official sent them off on a suicide mission,
but some members are still alive. Or the official arranged for the ship
to be captured, and killed.

Well I am about out of ideas, How do these sound?  Anyone want to add a
few more, expand on any of these?  Hopefully this gets someone's
creative juices flowing.

Oooh Oooh I got another one.
11) The ship landed on a planet, and an insane terrorist dropped a
relativistic rock on them. There I knew I could bring in the killer rock thread. :)

Lewis  

------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:24:47 -0700
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

>On 20 Jun 96 at 8:56, derek stanley spewed:
>
>> But aren't players who do this fun?  There's no real need to write 
>> adventures, they just bury themselves with regularity.
>> 
>> Then they whine and moan about how much trouble they're in and how none 
>> of it is their fault.  8)
>> 
>> DS
>>
>Yeah, I have a tendency to punish players like this in deliciously 
>sadistic ways... ;-)
>
Perfect example.  My party is on Promise, yes we went through Vampire
Fleets, we're getting as much distance from Star City as we can in a large
diesel truck.  It's been a trying week to say the least, Stinger (His name,
we call him Stone Wall) was killed on the bridge of the Archer as we siezed
the ship.  Grumble was killed as we tried to escape the city.

We were being followed by trogs, I stayed behind to ambush them,  a fire
fight ensues Grumble inorder to come to my rescue at a higher speed "Pulls
his Tabs" read any section about the RC body sleave and you'll get the
refference.  The fire fight continues Grumble gets hit and goes unconcious.
Unaware that Grumble has just "Pulled his Tabs" I pull them again causing a
massive heart attack and killing Grumble.  I was kinda upset about this.

So anyway's we arrive at this little roadhouse for gas and food, I buy so
bottles of wiskey, head to the back of the truck and proceed to drink myself
into unconciousness.  Meanwhile in the bar, Birdman deciedes to pick a fight
with a local rough and tumble bounty hunter.  Bad move, the guy turns out to
be an anderoid with similar construction philosophy to a terminator.
Needless to asy all hel breaks loose as I'm pleasently blotto in the back of
the 5-ton.  

Then they had the audacity to say, I didn't start the fight, wasn't me, etc..

You get the picture.

DS

Aren't PC's silly? 8)


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #128
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 20 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 129

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Forensic kit
         2. Re: MAVs?
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #117
         4. MMT is NOT a misnomer.
         5. Re: Missing RC Ships
         6. Pushing boulders
         7. FF&SLite & QSDS format
         8. Re: Forensic kit
         9. RE: Calling All Engineers!
        10. Re: Missing RC Ships
        11. RE: Thrusters
        12. RFD: Reunification of the Lists
        13. Re: [T96#117] Imperial Heraldry
        14. Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)
        15. Re: Reunification of the Lists
        16. Solution to the "Planet Killer" debate

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Seemann <mark@dk-online.dk>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:31:50 +-200
Subject: Forensic kit

Hi all

One of my players just rolled his new character - a law enforcer. It's =
very rare that I have one of those in my campaigns, so I'm looking =
forward to play. I was wondering about one thing though.

The guy wants to buy a forensic kit, and that's fine with me. But I =
would like to detail that kit a little to tell him what it consists of, =
and what he can use it for. What would a high tech forensic kit be like? =
What does it contain?

I'd guess at some tools to sample fingerprints and other traces of the =
perpetrator, a camera, small sample holding bags, tweezers, magnifying =
glass and so on. Most of these things are pretty low tech, though.

Does anyone has any ideas what a TL13 and/or a TL15 (to name two =
examples) forensic kit might contain?

TIA

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann/

------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:34:07 -0700
Subject: Re: MAVs?

>:I don't want to think about the possibilities if the planet had a battallion
>:of Intrepids for MAV fire support.  We're talking total carnage.
>
>   Hmm, what's a MAV? (I don't have *any* regency source material, I'm an RC
>addict)

MAV is an acronym used by the former Imperium for a particular type of vehical.
Meson Artillery Vehicle.  This TL15 bad boy has a short range of 3,000 km
inflicting 129 points of damage on whatever it hits.  The armor is pretty
horrendus by Armored vehicle standards but who cares you park it 500 km away
from the action and use it for fire support.  At 3000 km it's capable of
hitting anything in orbit from the ground.

See PG 40 of the RCVG (Regency Combat Vehicle Guide).

DS


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:46:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #117

>On 20 Jun 96 at 18:34, Andrew Boulton spewed:

>> Hey, don't laugh - I *know* people like that. One guy actually wanted a
>> grav-sled to carry all his guns...
>
>So do I...

Some of the Players I know has specially designed drawers placed beneath
their bunks with cut out foam inlays for all their weapons.  8)  Lets see
the shotgun goes here, the smg goes here, the grenade launcher...  Hey!  Who
the Hell's been touching my grenade launcher?!?  Come on!! Who??

>In my very early days as a Traveller referee, I had a guy who tended 
>to think that NPC's were put on Earth for 1 reason, and 1 reason 
>only...  Target Practice...

Yep, know the type well.  I on the other hand tend to think this is a bad
thing.  As generally there's way more of them than you.  I mean there's no
such thing as a completely squemish PC, but lets face it every drop of blood
you spill while trying to accomplish your mission lowers the value of
whatever it is you're trying to accomplish exponentially.

>The good news is that the rest of the party was much more rational 
>than he was and detested him.  Quite often he'd get the party 
>involved in a fight, only to watch the rest of the party back away, 
>as though they had no idea who he was.  Then he'd wind up fighting 5 
>people by himself (or rather getting killed by 5 people)... 

That's cruel, we'd help him then turn him over to the local police as a
trouble maker.  A couple of days in jail with a room mate named bubba
ususally calmed him down for a few weeks.  8)

DS


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:53:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: MMT is NOT a misnomer.

Ken Whitman used MMT in a number of posts, so I don't think you can say 
that it's a misnomer.  If Marc Miller doesn't use it, it is likely out of 
modesty.  

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:13:16 -0700
Subject: Re: Missing RC Ships

>Well what possibly could be the reasons, then we can decide which ones
>are the most exciting. I think the Astubula (I really should try to
>remember how to spell that name, what does it mean anyway?) should have
>an epic fate, something that the players will get excited about, its
>rescue? would bring in several highranking Navy brass.  It should be
>something different then all the rest.

Actually I believe there's an "H" in there, Ashtabula, lets check.  Yep,
Ashtabula.

>2) Virus got the ship, either infected it, or a Vampire Ship blew it
>up. Again its been done before.

Believe it or not this might be an option.  The ship incharge of Archer's
Vampire Fleet, in the module of the same name is a Broadsword.  Perhaps
Ashtabula has infiltrated the Fleet and is running it on our behalf...

>3) The Guild captured or Blew up the ship.  Also been done before.

This I have my doubts about, Ashtabula was a pretty heavily armed ship.  The
Guild (boo hiss) would have to be packing some serious hardware to take out
Ashtabula.

>4) The Hivers got the Ship.  But why would the Hivers want the ship,
>they are supposed to be our friends. :)  I think I might spread rumors
>that the Ashtabula has been captured by the Hivers, and that is at one
>of the Hiver Staging Grounds.  The players try investigate, and get
>warned away.  Of course the Hivers don't have the ship, but someone
>wants friction to form between the RC and the Hivers.  In my campaign
>it will be a Hiver Shadow Nest.

This I like, its a great adventure plot even if it is untrue.  Perhaps
Ashtabula has been sent back to Hiver space for some unknown reason.

>5) Ship just broke down,and needs repairs, it sits on a distant planet,
>trying to build a new jump drive out of a few cocoanuts and chewing
>gum.  Kind of dull, but might work for one of the Victrixs

They just need the Professor.  There's a guy who could build a fusion
reactor out of two coconuts and some tin foil.

>8) The ship isn't actually missing, it was sent on a secret mission to
>do something or other, so the RC said it was lost.

>9) The Crew found a mission that was more important than the RC, I
>don't know, fighting against an ancient enemy from beyond the stars or
>something.  Guess I have been watching too much Babylon 5.

This is actually a possibility.  The Ashtabula might have cottened on to
something and decided what ever it was, was far more important than losing
the scent.  So technically they're awol with a purpose.

I've alway held a special place in my heart for Ashtabula.  Perhaps the crew
was killed by a mysterious alien lifeforce and the ship is just drifting
aimlessly about some gas giant in Diaspora.  Personally I think there'd be a
much more intensive search for Ashtabula, it is terribly important to the
people of the RC.  Perhaps they sent it off to contact the Regency?

DS


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:15:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Pushing boulders

[Note change in title nomenclature to slip past that 'rock' subject-line
filter someone mentioned... :)]

Paul Walker asks, with regard to starships pushing rocks around:
> Has anyone figured out how much stress this would put on a typical hull
> structure to get the asteroid up to a sufficient speed?  I would think it
> would do a bit of damage to the hull moving that much mass. 

There's a fundamental rule of space operations which, once you really 
absorb it, know it instinctually, will make everything else about space 
ops (rock dropping, near-c lifeboats, and even ordinary in-system travel) 
make more intuitive sense.  That rule?

   *SPEED DOESN'T MATTER*

Now, before everybody jumps on me, there is a single notable exception to 
this rule.  At really high speeds, say 0.1c or more, both relativistic 
effects and (related) increasing hazards from dust particles in your path 
become a factor.  Other than that, though, speed is utterly irrelevant to 
how things work.  Remember, you can always choose a reference frame in 
which you and the rock you're strapped to are stationary, and the whole 
system around you is zooming by at 30 km/s.  (It gets more complicated 
when you accelerate, but the general principle stands.)

What *does* matter in space is acceleration.  Acceleration is what uses 
fuel, puts stress on your ship, and so forth.  TL 8 Terrans have a hard 
time getting used to this idea, as all our common experience (cars, for 
example) tell us that merely travelling fast is both stressful on 
machinery and requires constant power input.  Not so in space, though.

So, if I nose my ship up to a convenient asteroid, clamp onto it, and 
start pushing, I can pick any acceleration I like, based on how much 
stress the nose of my ship can take, and how massive the asteroid is.  
The force on my ship's nose is given by F = ma, where m is the asteroid's 
mass, and a is the acceleration.  I can bring F arbitrarily close to 
zero, by doing the same with a.

Of course, the lower my acceleration, the longer it will take to push the
rock into the target world, and the slower it will be going when it
arrives.  Assuming we start effectively at rest relative to the target
world, and boost continuously toward it, cutting loose just short of the
target, we can derive the travel time, t = sqrt(2d/a), and the velocity 
at impact, v = at = sqrt(2ad).

Hope this makes sense.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 17:18:30 -0500
Subject: FF&SLite & QSDS format

The QSDS is available in ascii as well.  For the word formats, you can get
MS-Word & MS-Excel viewers from the Microsoft web site.  They just give them
away.

Of course, this only works if you running some flavor of WinDoze or Oz2.

Mark Urbin eclipse@ultranet.com  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy 
spot on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
Opinions are MINE!  All Mine!  Bwwwaaaahhhh! 


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:29:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Forensic kit

>Hi all

>The guy wants to buy a forensic kit, and that's fine with me. But I would
like to detail that kit a little to tell him what it consists of, and what
he can use it for. What would a high tech forensic kit be like? What does it
contain?

It's possible a high tech forensic kit would include a device that could
instantly reconstruct a persons face from just a skull.  Or even from their
DNA, though this would probably take longer and be more of a Solomani thing.
If the perp left DNA you could reconstruct them too.  Skin, hair, blood,
well you can imagine the rest of this list.

You could probably differentiate between the different sub-species of
humanity (yes I dislike the other spelling immencly) based on genetic
markers in the field.  A protable retina scanner for fresh ones.  

There's a substance you can currently spray into a room that when viewed
under UV light causes human oils, finger prints, to glow.  Something for
detecting blood in limited quantities, it washed clothes etc.  Again this is
currently available.  

A balistic analysis kit, capable of telling you what kind of gun the slug
was fired from possible even where the bullet was made.

Something that would be useful in the collection of hair samples, some kind
of light.

A portable crime scene reconstruction kit.  It analyzes the size and 3D
characteristics of the crime scene, and based upon evidence immediatly
available reconstructs what happened with little geometric people.

The contents of your forensic kit are really only limited by you're
imagination.  I'm sure there's something you could tell about an individual
just by the air they exhale so you could analyze that too.

By the way Mark I lost that world map you sent me, computer ate it.  Could
you re-send it.  Thanks

DS

dstanley@direct.ca


------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:32:22 -0500
Subject: RE: Calling All Engineers!

> >Engineers just plain are not needed on non-military vessels.
> >All other vessels, visit a starport every week.  If things need
> >fixed or maintained it is done then.
> >I think that one engineer per 500T of hull would be much more
> >realistic.  Under 500T, engineering duties are handled by the
> >flight deck crew, ah la Hans and Chewy.  500T to 999T You need an
> >engineer etc.

Perhaps we should look at the example set by the USAF, or even civilian
airliners to answer this.
on a B-52, there is allways a flight engineer.
on a 757, there is allways a flight engineer.
Admittedly, the traditional role of engineer on a starship bears little to
no resemblance to that of engineer on an aircraft (except perhaps with the
B-52, where some inflight engine repairs have been made) the precedent is
available.
Besides, its just common sense. check out the "starship operators
handbook" from DGP, it explains exactly why you need a engineer, in
depth.



------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 20 Jun 96 17:42:50 EDT
Subject: Re: Missing RC Ships

- --- You wrote:
Oooh Oooh I got another one.
11) The ship landed on a planet, and an insane terrorist dropped a
relativistic rock on them. There I knew I could bring in the killer rock
thread. :)
- --- end of quoted material ---
Thanks so much...

like plutonium, the rock thread has a nasty half life....

------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:05:27 -0400
Subject: RE: Thrusters

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> The problem *is* that we have to explain how manuever drives work. At
> least to the extent of "you dump in this much energy and gain that much
> velocity". And that *alone* is enough to cause the problems.

You don't really *need* to know how much actual energy is involved,
although you're right: this is certain to be in the rules and can cause
problems (I've proposed one way to solve the velocity problem, though).

This is an example of where things need to be thought out in advance.
If the drives require too little energy, there may be "free" kinetic
energy for the taking. If they require *tremendous* amounts, there may
be ways to use the powerplants or drives as ultra-powerful weapons.

> Actually, if a planet is completely unprotected, you can drop a *big*
> rock on it at "normal" in-system velocities (say 30 km/s). Just nudge a
> body a few km in diameter at the right time. That's all it takes for a
> dinosaur killer.

True (and we can do that now). But at least that:
o is likely to take a while, and
o requires finding the rock first (sorry, you just can't seem to locate
  one in this system!).

You can't do anything about suicide attacks, of course. Non-military
non-commercial ships would hit the ground like nukes. Big ones might
even be able to do some decent ecological damage. Hopefully anything
worse should only be possible with military (or perhaps with *big*
commercial) vessels.

> On the whole, I think the best bet for now is to work up tables for the
> hazard at various velocities. That'll discourage really high speeds. 

That could work. The hazards *may* have to be unrealistically severe,
though. If you are pushing a rock, for instance, you will be behind
it, somewhat protected. Will the rock be completely obliterated by
the random particle of dust it encounters? If not, its trajectory
may be changed, but the would-be attacker could leave reserve thrust
to compensate or simply take another pass at the planet.

Other than that, this level of discouragement is sufficient for me.
You may be willing to waste ships (and risk negative press) in some
military campaigns, but at least nature has some chance of stopping
a lone suicidal madman.

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 18:56:00 -0500
Subject: RFD: Reunification of the Lists

  Of late, I have observed that many messages that appear in
  Traveller digests appear in XBoat digests as well.  I cannot at
  this time think of a single topic that is currently being
  discussed on either list that is not also being discussed on the
  other.

  Additionally, all of the current traffic seems to be on various
  topics associated with Traveller, a product line yet to be
  released by Imperium Games (as opposed to Traveller, a product
  released about 20 years ago by Game Designers Workshop).  I do
  not contend that this is a bad thing.  Far from it - it signals
  that there is quite a lot of enthusiasm for the forthcoming
  product line, and much involvement in seeing that it succeeds,
  from both a technical and marketing/social perspective.  I
  support this concept wholeheartedly.

  I do contend that the duplication is unnecessary, both to the
  recipients of the lists, and to the administrator of the lists.

  I am therefore formally requesting that discussion on
  reunification of Traveller and XBoat be opened, with the proposed
  name for the combined list being "Traveller".

  This is not to be taken as an objection to redivision, or a new
  division, once the new products have become available - if there
  is truly a legitimate need for a separate list to support one or
  more of the superseded product lines, I will support the creation
  of that list.  I simply feel that at this time, the focus is
  clearly on the forthcoming product line, to the apparent
  exclusion of all else, and that given this focus, the separate
  lists are unnecessary.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  If at first you don't succeed, DEL *.* and forget it.

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 18:56:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#117] Imperial Heraldry

T::>Paul writes:
 ::>>A shield.  The top 1/4 divided into three sections, white, red,
 ::>>white.  The first section shows a red sun(the Imperial Sunburst), the second
 ::>>a white moon, and the third a red star(six pointed).  The bottom 3/4 is gold
 ::>>and has no image or symbol at all.  Over time this symbol evolved into just
 ::>>the three sectioned bar, and eventually just the sunburst.  (The colors
 ::>>could either evolve, or stay the same.)  (And to think, I used to know how
 ::>>to write this the way a herald would).

 It would be "Or, on a chief Argent, on a pale between an sun and a
 mullet of six points all Gules, a crescent Argent.

 It's also not likely to be something that appears in Terran
 heraldry; whether Vilani or Sylean native heraldry developed these
 forms is open to question.  In a few days, there will be a RICE
 Paper on this topic (which will give _my_ take on this question).

 ::>   I'm not sure you can split a chief like that. Better to switch it around
 ::>like this:
 ::>A white shield with a red vertical bar, a Sunburst, crescent and star of six
 ::>points
 ::>across the middle in opposite colours. A gold stripe across the top.
 ::>Or, roughly translated into herald:
 ::>"Argent, a pale gules. A sunbrust, crescent and star of six points fesswise
 ::>counterchanged, a cheif or."

 This is much nicer development of the concept, Jo.  It would never
 pass Laurel (and you know _exactly_ what I'm talking about :)),
 though; ever hear of a slot machine?

T::>>On a stary backdrop, a pale moon (light from above and behind
 ::>>viewer) with blue letters D&D in "3-D" extending from a point at the top of
 ::>>the moon to the center of the moon.
 ::>Translation:
 ::>Sable a semi of stars, a crescent argent, chared with D&D azure.
 ::>[All this 3D stuff is artistic lisence :-]

 Also unlikely to appear in Terran heraldry, as the use of letters
 is vanishingly rare at best.

T::>Or nearly.
 ::>  Anyone else interested in SF heraldry? I was designing a costume entry
 ::>for a SF mercenary brigade and much of the work was based on heraldic
 ::>charges brought forward. I've a database now of SF charges for
 ::>shields.

 At one point (during the Traveller (little black books) era, I had
 started to work up a College of Arms for characters in my
 campaigns to have arms registered with...  I'd be interested in
 seeing what you've got.

 ::>  I've been meaning to write it up and put it on the web.

 Do it, and EMail me with the URL.

 ::>                                                          There are a number
 ::>of "open questions" for strict heraldic interpreation. For example what
 ::>colour is an "asteroid proper"?

 Would something like that ever be blazoned "proper"?  That's kind
 of like "a cow proper", or "a rooster proper" - there are just too
 many variations on the natural coloring for "proper" to be
 meaningful.

T::>I'll leave you with the arms of "The Drachenwald Space Lancers":

T::>A gold shield, Three red rocketships in the middle with a black
 ::>dragon on top of them, one claw raised, tail curved between the
 ::>legs and back out again. Two black comets curved around
 ::>each side.

 Giveaway, Jo - who are you, really?  (Incidentally, that makes
 _three_ publicly acknowledged SCA members on this list - you,
 me, and Paul.  Is it time for another debate on the nature of a
 Feudal Technocracy?)

 (from the Armorial of the Society for Creative Anachronism)

 Drachenwald, Kingdom of:
 Or, in fess three pine trees eradicated gules, overall a dragon
 passant coward, all within a laurel wreath, in chief an ancient
 crown sable.

==========================================================================
Yosef ben Lazar                                   jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
Seahorse Pursuivant
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  The magnetic equivalent of dust bunnies.


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:07:57 GMT
Subject: Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)

Since the "Cr1,000 per displacement ton" cost is based on CT circa 1100 Imp.,
wouldn't it be feasible that this value was finally settled upon as the lowest
price possible (while still being allowing captains to pay their mortgages) *at
that time*.  In Milieu 0, costs might have been higher, and have come down
slowly since then as better ship designs and technology became available.  The
only factor that isn't taken into account is inflation (ie: freight costs were,
are, and seem to always will be Cr1,000), but that is another matter all
together.

------------------------------

From: Pauli <Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 09:27:52 +1000
Subject: Re: Reunification of the Lists

hi,

I too have been getting slightly annoyed by the duplication of messages
present on the Traveller lists recently.  Instead of merging the lists
together and then (possibly/probably) splitting them at a later date, how
about a combined list containing all of the members of both lists?

Does anybody know if majordomo makes it possible to automatically
include you on the combined list when you subscribe to either/both of
the existing lists?

Just a thought to reduce congestion in the mailboxes of those people
subscribed to both lists.  What do people think?



        						Dr Pauli

Paul Dale                       | Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au
Computer Centre                 | +61 77 814 551
James Cook University           |
Australia, 4811                 | Did you know that there are 41 two letter
                                |     words containing the letter 'a'?


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:46:22 GMT
Subject: Solution to the "Planet Killer" debate

As a bit of comic relief during the current "Planet Killer" debate I would like
to suggest the following scenarios:

Asteroids are sentient beings that wouldn't let anyone propel them towards a
planet (and to certain doom).  Make 'em powerful psionists that will threaten
that "if this type of thing continues, they will begin propelling their own
criminals and elderly towards the homeworlds of every planet in the sector."

Have the asteroid turn out to be an SDB based on the old Planetoid hull
classification from CT.

Have them get hit by SOME OTHER TERRORIST'S 0.1c asteroid while out looking for
their own.

Make the asteroid out of antimatter.  BOOM !

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #129
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 20 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 130

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Meson Decay
         2. Re: RFD: Reunification of the Lists
         3. Re: Reunification of the Lists
         4. PDF
         5. Symbols
         6. Re: Reunification of the Lists
         7. Re: Forensic kit
         8. Traveller New Era
         9. Re: Solution to the "Planet Killer" debate
        10. Re: meson beam detection
        11. Trin's Veil as A Defence Against Boulders.
        12. Free Trader and Subsidized Merchant (QSDS 1.1)
        13. Railguns as a Defense against Boulders.
        14. Re: Traveller New Era
        15. Re: Trin's Veil as A Defence Against Boulders.
        16. Asteroid Monitors
        17. RE: enginners

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:16:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Meson Decay

On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Andrew Boulton wrote:
> 
> > From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96
> > 00:07:52 PST Subject: Meson gun "tracks"
> >  
> > In real life, the time that they decay is a "half-life". In other words,
> > half of the mesons will have decayed by that time, the other half will
> > decay in a longer period.
> 
> A thought: how will you detect this 'meson beam'?

   When "mesons" decay, they release energy (probably in the form of gamma
rays, or some other energetic radiation) this is what's detectable.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:18:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RFD: Reunification of the Lists

On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, JEFF ZEITLIN wrote:

>   I am therefore formally requesting that discussion on
>   reunification of Traveller and XBoat be opened, with the proposed
>   name for the combined list being "Traveller".

As a dedicated fan of Classic Traveller who doesn't own MT nor T:NE, I 
support a reunification of the lists.  I think people can refrain from 
flaming others' tastes in Traveller flavors.  (Besides, we should all 
agree to police this sort of thing, and hopefully Rob will boot truly 
abusive folks off the list.)

>   This is not to be taken as an objection to redivision, or a new
>   division, once the new products have become available - if there
>   is truly a legitimate need for a separate list to support one or
>   more of the superseded product lines, I will support the creation
>   of that list.  I simply feel that at this time, the focus is
>   clearly on the forthcoming product line, to the apparent
>   exclusion of all else, and that given this focus, the separate
>   lists are unnecessary.

I don't know how difficult it would be to create another list if it 
becomes necessary after T4 is introduced, though.  Maybe Rob would rather 
not go through that, eh?  Might be easier for him to keep Xboat around, 
which he can then designate as the CT/MT/TNE list, leaving the Traveller 
list for T4 (or whatever division seems logical at the time).

What do you say, Rob?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:21:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Reunification of the Lists

> I too have been getting slightly annoyed by the duplication of messages
> present on the Traveller lists recently.  Instead of merging the lists
> together and then (possibly/probably) splitting them at a later date, how
> about a combined list containing all of the members of both lists?

What is bad is when you are also on GDW-Beta where the ship design stuff
is being designed.  I frequently get the same message three times.

> Does anybody know if majordomo makes it possible to automatically
> include you on the combined list when you subscribe to either/both of
> the existing lists?

I don't know, but there are ways to make it happen.

> Just a thought to reduce congestion in the mailboxes of those people
> subscribed to both lists.  What do people think?

Actually Paul, the list ADMIN could issue an edict similar to:

>From your ADMIN:

     The Traveller Mailing List is for discussions about any Traveller
     version of Traveller.  All discussions regarding T4 should be 
     discussed here.  

     The Xboat mailing list is for discussions of Classic and Mega-
     Traveller.  TNE and T4 discussions are not permitted there.
     Any one on Xboat who wishes to discuss T4, or follow its development
     should subscribe to Traveller as well as Xboat.

     Cease and desist any further posts to Xboat that relates to T4 or MMT.
     
     Cross posts should be kept to a minimum, and should only address specific
     issues that are important to both list such as administravia, or questions
     of a generic nature such as "Why was there no Grandmother for Grandfather"
     that needs the input from multi-era people.  Announcments of Web sits, and
     other things that are of the common good are ok to be cross posted.

Now these two lists have very specific missions.  T4 seems to be important to both
lists, but specifically by the charters of the two mailing lists, T4, while its 
roots are CT/MT, is clearly to be discussed in Traveller, and since its not CT/MT
should not be discussed in Xboat.

Discussion?  Do we need a list to discuss the RFD?

Rob
     
    

- -- 
Rob Miracle
rwm@mpgn.com
for webmaster@mpgn.com

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:38:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PDF

On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Christopher Sean Hilton wrote:
> 
> This is a terrible amount of power for player characters to have but _it 
> could not be avoided_ without resorting to Bugs Bunny physics. I kept the 
> rule in place and let the players know that these antics would not be 
> allowed by frequent encounters with Close escorts and such.

   Do you want a copy of my PDF file when I'm finished playing with the
idea? Ship designs, operations outlines, attitudes, frequency of
encounter, Port Authority procedures, etc...

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
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violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: aramis@lunatic.ak.net (William F. Hostman)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:50:44 -0800
Subject: Symbols

Office of Naval Intelligence:

        The Imperial starburst, and in the center, an eye. Possibly all
within a large triangle... <EFG>

Office of Revenue: (1st submission after the founding):
        three coins bearing his imperial majesty's (HIM's) face, within the
flares of an imperial sunburst

Early Coinage:
        the imperial sunburst behind HIM's bust on the heads side, on the
tails side (the obverse, for fellow pursuaivants), the denomination within
a laurel wreath, which just happens to match that of the UN/Terran
Confederation symbol

Ministry of Finance/buisiness:
        The imperial starburst with a small moon, centerline, in the top
3rd of the sun it's self... (modified from the old vilani symbol)

The Imperial Marine Corps:
        early developments: The Starburst, within a laurel wreath, with
crossed cutlasses.
        Later: move to a single cutlass. Drop and re-add the wreath as
solomani power waxes and wanes.


William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com





------------------------------

From: matth <matth@ritz.mordor.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:51:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Reunification of the Lists

Hi: 

Why not just delete xboat since traveller is merging with T4 ? 

Matthew

> 
> hi,
> 
> I too have been getting slightly annoyed by the duplication of messages
> present on the Traveller lists recently.  Instead of merging the lists
> together and then (possibly/probably) splitting them at a later date, how
> about a combined list containing all of the members of both lists?
> 
> Does anybody know if majordomo makes it possible to automatically
> include you on the combined list when you subscribe to either/both of
> the existing lists?
> 
> Just a thought to reduce congestion in the mailboxes of those people
> subscribed to both lists.  What do people think?
> 
> 
> 
>         						Dr Pauli
> 
> Paul Dale                       | Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au
> Computer Centre                 | +61 77 814 551
> James Cook University           |
> Australia, 4811                 | Did you know that there are 41 two letter
>                                 |     words containing the letter 'a'?
> 
> 


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:52:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Forensic kit

On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Mark Seemann wrote:
> 
> I'd guess at some tools to sample fingerprints and other traces of the
> perpetrator, a camera, small sample holding bags, tweezers, magnifying
> glass and so on. Most of these things are pretty low tech, though.
> 
> Does anyone has any ideas what a TL13 and/or a TL15 (to name two
> examples) forensic kit might contain?

   Thermal imager (for recent crime sites and also to approximate time of
death). 
   
   Chem analyzer of some sort. (sniffer perhaps)
   
   Computer, possibly AI to analyze patterns, do data searches, etc. (even
today computerized fingerprint searches are getting to be the norm at FBI)
Should be portable enough to easily carry on belt.
   
   Surgical gloves, flashlight ?

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
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------------------------------

From: matth <matth@ritz.mordor.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:00:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Traveller New Era

Hi: 

I never got around to buying Traveller New Era. The primary reason
being that as soon as I bought some stuff with Megatraveller , it was
no longer supported and TNE was. Are the rules in TNE drastically 
different than in MT/CT? 

Matthew




------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:05:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Solution to the "Planet Killer" debate

On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, James Lindsay wrote:

> As a bit of comic relief during the current "Planet Killer" debate I would like
> to suggest the following scenarios:

   Some beautiful scenarios there!

   I particularly like the "poetic justice" approach of getting hit by a
Relativistic Rock. :)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@rt66.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:07:01 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: meson beam detection

 
> > In real life, the time that they decay is a "half-life". In other words,
> > half of the mesons will have decayed by that time, the other half will
> > decay in a longer period.
> 
> A thought: how will you detect this 'meson beam'?

When they decay to gammas.  Look for the wierd gamma source :-)
 
- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:59:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Trin's Veil as A Defence Against Boulders.

Hi all.  Okay, I'm not usually big on the discussion of dropping rocks, 
but I got this idea and I just have to fly it past people.  I'm a mere 
arts student with a semi-science background, so please feel free to make 
corrections to my reasoning/math.

I was thinking about possible defences against dropped/propelled rocks and
I remembered someone noting that you could take one out by hitting it with
a very low mass projectile (i.e., the pebble would do the same thing to
the boulder as the boulder was supposed to do to the planet.)

Then I thought:  Why not protect your planet with a big layer of particles
in orbit around it?  A boulder hitting one of the particles would go poof
(Or would it? See below.).  Then I pulled out my trusty calculator and
figured out the following: 

If you want to create a spherical layer of particles around your planet of 
50000 km radius and 10 m thickness, you end up with a shell having 
a volume of  314100000 km^3.

The calculations for this are as follows, ignore 'em if you trust me :-): 
Outer sphere has radius of 50000 km, therefore volume of 4/3 * PI *
50000^3 = 5.235987753 x 10^14. Inner sphere has a radius of 49999.99 km,
volume = 5.235984612 x 10^14. Subtract volume of inner sphere from that of
outer sphere to get the volume of the shell (3.141 x 10^8 km^3). 

If you want to put a 1 gram particle in every cubic meter of that volume, 
you need 3.141 x 10^17 grams of matter (or 3.141 x 10^14 kg, or 3.141 x 
10^11 metric tons).  Assuming you have a nice asteroid belt around and some 
asteroids with an average density of 10g/cm^3 (or 10 tons/m^3), you need 
3 x 10^10 cubic meters of crushed rock.  That's a mere 30 cubic 
kilometers! (Okay, so "mere" isn't quite the word, but for a high-tech 
society it shouldn't be a big problem, I don't think.).

(I think my density assumption may be a little high, can anyone let me 
know one way or the other?  Even if it's only 5g/cm^3, 60 cubic km 
isn't so daunting either.)

Anyway, you get this crushed rock and stick it in orbit around your world. 
Any boulder coming in is sure to hit one or more of the particles.  If it
is travelling at the infamous velocity of .1 C (300000 m/s) and hits just
one pebble, it receives .005 * 300000^2 = .45 gigajoules of kinetic
energy.  I'm not sure if this is enough to vaporize it (depends on size
and composition of course), but it should bust it up into very tiny
peices.  And the larger the rock, the more particles it hits.  If this is
not enough, then you can always up the size of the particles to 10 g and
get 300 cubic kilometers of rock (though now were talking a bigger
project, of course). 

One problem with this scheme is letting freindly ships in and out.  This
could be accomplished by a network of sattelites with big magnetic /
gravitic grapples / repulsors which open "gates" in the particle shell for
ships to pass through.  These statellites would also serve to repair
occasional holes and such in the shell. 

Of course, this scheme isn't foolproof (nothing ever is, cuz fools is so
ingenius :-), but it does allow a basic defense against occasional
long-distance rock lobbing.  I picture it as something that would be used
to protect major industrial centers and capitals and such.  I wonder if 
Trin/Trin's Veil wasn't selected as a capital because it had such 
defenses naturally in the form of dust clouds?

Comments?

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:56:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Free Trader and Subsidized Merchant (QSDS 1.1)

Hi,

Here are a couple more designs.  There doesn't seem to be much use for 
both a Free Trader and a Far Trader, as far as cost goes, under the TL 11 
design rules for T4.  The cost is almost exactly the same, yet with the 
Far Trader you get Jump-2.  The only advantage of the Free Trader (other 
than a tiny cost reduction) is the increased cargo space.

The Subsidized Merchant is a great deal under this system, since it costs 
about seven megacredits more than the Free Trader, yet has nearly 200 
tons of cargo capacity.  

(By the way, before I forget, there was a typo in the Far Trader 
listing.  The Sensors are listed as Improved TL 12.  They are in fact 
Improved TL 11.)

At any rate, here are the designs:

=====
Free Trader

Tons:  200		Volume: 2800		Cost: 84.42 (63.31)
Crew:  2/5		Passengers (H/M): 6/0	Passengers (L): 20
Cargo: 43.8		Controls: Std/Bridge   	Tech Level: 11

08 Size Rating			01 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating		01 G Rating / Heplar
02 Battery - 2-0-0-0		05 Power Plant Rating
00 Battery			29.9 SR Fuel Rating 
00 Battery			00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery			00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery			00 Damper Rating
00 Battery			A1 P2 J0 Sensors/Improved TL 11
00 Battery			
00 Battery			0 Armor 	6 Structure

Crew Detail (Standard): Engineer/Electronics, Pilot/Astrogator, 2 Gunners,
			1 Medic/Steward.

Crew Detail (Minimum) : Engineer/Electronics, Pilot/Astrogator.


(Note: The Medic/Steward may be foregone if no passengers are carried.  
The Gunners are optional if the weapons will not be used.)

The Free Trader is based on a 200-ton, box, streamlined hull and has a 10 
ton/hr fuel purification plant.  A variant without the fuel purification 
plant is available with greater cargo capacity (70.8) for a slightly 
lesser price (MCr 63.24 after the standard discount).  In either format, the 
Free Trader contains standard civilian TL-11 avionics and improved TL-11 
communications systems.  There are 7 Large Staterooms available, one of 
which is typically used by the senior individual.  The rest of the crew 
makes use of the four bunks available.  

===================
Subsidized Merchant

Tons:  400		Volume: 5600		Cost: 94.37 (70.78)
Crew:  9		Passengers (H/M): 8/0	Passengers (L): 9
Cargo: 193.4		Controls: Std/Bridge   	Tech Level: 11

08 Size Rating			01 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating		01 G Rating / Heplar
02 Battery - 2-0-0-0		03 Power Plant Rating
00 Battery			57 SR Fuel Rating 
00 Battery			00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery			00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery			00 Damper Rating
00 Battery			A1 P2 J0 Sensors/Improved TL 11
00 Battery			
00 Battery			0 Armor 	9 Structure

Crew Detail: Engineer, Electronics, Pilot, Astrogator, 2 Gunners,
	     Medic, Steward, Commander.


(Note: The Medic and Steward may be foregone if no passengers are carried.  
The Gunners are optional if the weapons will not be used.)

Using a 400-ton, cylindrical hull, the subsidized merchant (nicknamed fat 
trader) is a trading vessel intended to meet the commercial needs of 
clusters of worlds.  The ship has nine staterooms (one of which is used 
by the Commander), nine low berths, and eight small staterooms (to be 
used by the crew).  The sensors and communications are of the Improved 
TL-11 type, while the Avionics are standard civilian TL-11 components.

================

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)











------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:18:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Railguns as a Defense against Boulders.

Hi all.  Have railguns been covered already as a defence against the 
infamous boulder attack?  I was around for the last rock-dropping thread, 
but haven't been paying that much attention to the latest one (how many 
have their been?  How far back does this go?).  If no-one's 
covered it, let me take a shot.  

Here's my idea:  You put a network of railguns around your world about
100000 km out, and make the network dense enough that there's no more than
10000 km between any two railguns.  If you assume a rock coming in at .1 C
and a detection distance of one light second (this is based on Grand
Survey's assertion that desitometers can detect any size of spaceship at
500000 km), that gives you ten seconds to get something in front of the
rock that will vaporize it on impact.  The rock's own velocity will
provide most of the needed KE, so the main thing to do is get something in
front of the rock.  You need to do this in 10 seconds and the max distance
to cover is 5000 km.  You therefore need to launch a projectile at 500
km/second.  Here's a diagram.  Each character represents about 10000 km.

								 /
		    		@  Railgun Satelite		/	
	~300000km    		| ~5000 km  			| World
o------------------------------>*  				|
Rock (30000 km/s)		Railgun Rounds (500 km/s)	\
								 \

How feasible is this?  Is the 500 km/s figure implausible?  Could rocks 
go faster than .1 C?  Sorry if all this has been covered recently...

Comments?

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:19:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller New Era

matth wrote:
> 
> Hi:
> 
> I never got around to buying Traveller New Era. The primary reason
> being that as soon as I bought some stuff with Megatraveller , it was
> no longer supported and TNE was. Are the rules in TNE drastically
> different than in MT/CT?
> 
> MatthewUmmmm... Ya you could say that.  The rules are actually quite different. 
 Sneak into your local hobby shop and peak through the character 
generation and task resolution sections and you'll immediately see what I 
mean.  Look in the back at the starship descriptions and you'll also 
notice quite a difference.

DS

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:35:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Trin's Veil as A Defence Against Boulders.

A) You'd end up with a whole bunch of little rocks, just about as 
destructive.

B) You'd create your own navigational hazard with all that stuff floating 
around your world.

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:36:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Asteroid Monitors

    Are there any rules for making asteroid ships (monitors) under
    FF&S rules or variants? I've been getting some ideas that use
    this concept originated in HG, but I can't find anything in my
    copy of the rules.

    I'm mainly interested in the effects on armour and structural
    integrity, damage rules, etc as they already mention tunneling
    costs under the section on deep sites.

    I also have received no response to my previous post on the
    missing data on page 75 of FF&S. It's really driving me nuts
    not being able to use CG because of the missing tables, and
    I'd appreciate it very much if someone could forward the tables
    and missing text from p.75. Thanks in advance...

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 



------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:32:43 -0500
Subject: RE: enginners

I recently posted a statement that commercial Air Transports such as the
757 or other big jets have onboard flight engineers; Since then, I have
seen statements to the effect that they do not.
I happen to have the strange luck of having a friend who is a commercial
airline pilot; I will get in touch with him in the next 24-36 hours and
place his comments on the subject in general here.
Laterz.
- --
                   The Druid
    http://www.datatek.com/dataforge
              druid@datatek.com
                   rtrav@msn.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #130
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 21 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 131

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Reunification of the Lists
         2. Re: Pushing boulders (rocks)
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #129
         4. Re: Calling All Engineers!
         5. Re: Calling All Engineers!
         6. DMS Sites
         7. Re: Trin's Veil as A Defence Against Boulders.
         8. Re: Traveller New Era
         9. Re: MMT is NOT a misnomer.
        10. Re: RFD: Reunification of the Lists
        11. Starship Economics (Long)
        12. Re: Reunification of the lists

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:29:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Reunification of the Lists

>From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
>Subject: RFD: Reunification of the Lists
>
>  Of late, I have observed that many messages that appear in
>  Traveller digests appear in XBoat digests as well.  I cannot at
>  this time think of a single topic that is currently being
>  discussed on either list that is not also being discussed on the
>  other.

I can name at least one (and I haven't been keeping up with xboat very well):
        The world map thread on xboat.

Not that it wouldn't fit in just as well here, mind you. :)


>  Additionally, all of the current traffic seems to be on various
>  topics associated with Traveller, a product line yet to be
>  released by Imperium Games (as opposed to Traveller, a product
>  released about 20 years ago by Game Designers Workshop).  I do
>  not contend that this is a bad thing.  Far from it - it signals
>  that there is quite a lot of enthusiasm for the forthcoming
>  product line, and much involvement in seeing that it succeeds,
>  from both a technical and marketing/social perspective.  I
>  support this concept wholeheartedly.

Agreed, mucho, mucho support.  Great topic!

>
>  I do contend that the duplication is unnecessary, both to the
>  recipients of the lists, and to the administrator of the lists.

Untrue.  I am still working on my development of the TNE-RC universe (so is
the thread of the missing RC ships, another exception).  I really don't want
to have to put up with a bunch of people jumping on my case whenever I want
to talk about the era in which I want to game.  I don't mind hearing about
Mileau 0, Imperial 1100, or the Rebellion(I wouldn't be subscribed to xboat
if I did mind).  However, I do think there a some people out there who don't
want to hear about the RC era, and although I don't understand the bias, I
do respect it.


>  I am therefore formally requesting that discussion on
>  reunification of Traveller and XBoat be opened, with the proposed
>  name for the combined list being "Traveller".

As long as there are people on either list who can't stand reading about one
of the other GDW created eras, there will be problems.  If we could somehow
make everyone post their messages with CT, MT, TNE, T4, ALL before the
subject, I think it might be able to work, but we can't even get everyone to
stop posting with "Re: Traveller digest #652" (or whatever) in the subject line.


>  This is not to be taken as an objection to redivision, or a new
>  division, once the new products have become available - if there
>  is truly a legitimate need for a separate list to support one or
>  more of the superseded product lines, I will support the creation
>  of that list.  I simply feel that at this time, the focus is
>  clearly on the forthcoming product line, to the apparent
>  exclusion of all else, and that given this focus, the separate
>  lists are unnecessary.

Please don't take this the wrong way either.  I would love to only have to
read one list, but I think there are people on both sides of this fence that
can't come to terms with the fact that others don't see things their way.

My vote is that we're not ready for this yet.


Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
      Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
      Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:29:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Pushing boulders (rocks)

>From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>

>Subject: Pushing boulders
>
>[Note change in title nomenclature to slip past that 'rock' subject-line
>filter someone mentioned... :)]

Sorry, had to add it back.  It's been a really long day, and I have enough
people mad at me already. :)


>Paul Walker asks, with regard to starships pushing rocks around:
>> Has anyone figured out how much stress this would put on a typical hull
>> structure to get the asteroid up to a sufficient speed?  I would think it
>> would do a bit of damage to the hull moving that much mass. 

Yes I did.

>
>There's a fundamental rule of space operations which, once you really 
>absorb it, know it instinctually, will make everything else about space 
>ops (rock dropping, near-c lifeboats, and even ordinary in-system travel) 
>make more intuitive sense.  That rule?
>
>   *SPEED DOESN'T MATTER*
>

Duh?!?!?  OK.

>Now, before everybody jumps on me, there is a single notable exception to 
>this rule.  At really high speeds, say 0.1c or more, both relativistic 
>effects and (related) increasing hazards from dust particles in your path 
>become a factor.  Other than that, though, speed is utterly irrelevant to 
>how things work.  Remember, you can always choose a reference frame in 
>which you and the rock you're strapped to are stationary, and the whole 
>system around you is zooming by at 30 km/s.  (It gets more complicated 
>when you accelerate, but the general principle stands.)
>
>What *does* matter in space is acceleration.  Acceleration is what uses 
>fuel, puts stress on your ship, and so forth.  TL 8 Terrans have a hard 
>time getting used to this idea, as all our common experience (cars, for 
>example) tell us that merely travelling fast is both stressful on 
>machinery and requires constant power input.  Not so in space, though.
>
>So, if I nose my ship up to a convenient asteroid, clamp onto it, and 
>start pushing, I can pick any acceleration I like, based on how much 
>stress the nose of my ship can take, and how massive the asteroid is.  
>The force on my ship's nose is given by F = ma, where m is the asteroid's 
>mass, and a is the acceleration.  I can bring F arbitrarily close to 
>zero, by doing the same with a.
>
>Of course, the lower my acceleration, the longer it will take to push the
>rock into the target world, and the slower it will be going when it
>arrives.  Assuming we start effectively at rest relative to the target
>world, and boost continuously toward it, cutting loose just short of the
>target, we can derive the travel time, t = sqrt(2d/a), and the velocity 
>at impact, v = at = sqrt(2ad).
>
>Hope this makes sense.

Clear as mud!!  (How did I ever even pass high school physics?)

I never have been able to comprehend the concepts of relativity.  I'm
assuming that 1. All  these formulae are correct, and 2. You Physics whizzes
have determined that this is possible.  I mean to my feeble brain, it seems
impossible that a tiny 1-6G starship could possible move an asteroid of any
decent size fast enough that it would really cause damage.  Really, I find
it difficult that a ship could move an asteroid period.

OK, let me explain why I think this.  I'm using a car as a frame of reference...

wait, wait, wait...   (sounds of wheels turning in head)

OK, I get it.  This would be more akin to moving something in water, only
without the water creating a sort-of friction/drag element.  The car example
is bad cause of the friction on the road as well as the problems of gravity.
(does gravity create a problem?)  I think I'm getting clearer.

Another question, someone mentioned that a rock moving near the speed of
light (I think that was the speed to which they referred) would make it to
the surface of a planet regardless of size.  (I think that's what they said)
How is this possible?

I've been getting answers from a number of people, but we might want to take
this private.  I would like to know though.


Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
      Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
      Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:29:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #129

>
>From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
>Subject: Re: [T96#117] Imperial Heraldry
>
> It would be "Or, on a chief Argent, on a pale between an sun and a
> mullet of six points all Gules, a crescent Argent.

Now that sounds familiar!!  :)

>
> It's also not likely to be something that appears in Terran
> heraldry; whether Vilani or Sylean native heraldry developed these
> forms is open to question.  In a few days, there will be a RICE
> Paper on this topic (which will give _my_ take on this question).

I would think that some form of Heraldry would be present in most if not all
races.  I'll be waiting for your article on this please let us know when
it's done!!!

> ::>Or, roughly translated into herald:
> ::>"Argent, a pale gules. A sunbrust, crescent and star of six points fesswise
> ::>counterchanged, a cheif or."
>
> This is much nicer development of the concept, Jo.  It would never
> pass Laurel (and you know _exactly_ what I'm talking about :)),
> though; ever hear of a slot machine?

I'm not sure I understand the Laurel reference, but IIRC it wouldn't pass
because of the metal on metal, correct?

>
> At one point (during the Traveller (little black books) era, I had
> started to work up a College of Arms for characters in my
> campaigns to have arms registered with...  I'd be interested in
> seeing what you've got.

I already mentioned to Jo that we ought to work up an Imperial College of
Arms for Mileau 0.  I can see it as a part of the history what with the many
nobles and such.  Besides, where else woud the MegaCorps go to register
their emblems.


> Giveaway, Jo - who are you, really?  (Incidentally, that makes
> _three_ publicly acknowledged SCA members on this list - you,
> me, and Paul.  Is it time for another debate on the nature of a
> Feudal Technocracy?)

Only two right now, Jeff.  I downloaded the Admin Handbook fo the College of
Arms of the SCA today as well as Stephen Gold's heraldry primer for a
refresher.  Like I asked Jo, do you have any reccommendation on good books
with the Heraldry rules in them, I can't find any and I haven't done any of
this stuff since high school.  (BTW, Jo, I do need that ISBN number if you
can get it.  I don't remember if I told you or not.)


I would like to know if either of you can point me where to go to find out
more about the SCA, and joining.  Jo, I looked at the site you gave me, and
I either never got back to the original site from an early taken link, or it
wasn't the right place.


Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
      Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
      Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 21:41:35 -0600
Subject: Re: Calling All Engineers!

On 06/20/96 at 10:25 AM,  Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com> said:

>What if the "coolant regulator" breaks down on your car in the middle
>of nowhere? (Or, as my friends did, in the middle of downtown
>Toronto, at midnight...) 

Ethan, you get on your cell phone and call AAA...or in the case of
Toronto the Canadian version of 911.  <g> And before you bring it up,
if you are cell-less you can *always* try to walk for help.  Try that
in space.  Try it in a star system somewhere off the beaten track.

Starships are not automobiles, not in my games anyway.  An air-raft,
that's a car.

>You don't need an engineer to fix _every_ emergency.  Anyone
>with mechanical, electronic, robotic, gravitic, engineering,
>etc-1 should do.

So what's an engineer?  It's someone with "mechanical,
electronic, robotic, gravitic, engineering, etc-1" skills Maybe the
problem is a difference in terminology, I'm saying you've got to have
someone with repair, technical & engineering *skills* to fill the
engineering function.  That person can *also* have other duties...when
he isn't keeping the gravtics working he's in the kitchen.  <g>

>As for pirates, if they blow a hole in your hull, then you'll
>probably be captured or killed, or both. When you're dead,  thinghs
>like jump coils just don't matter like they used to.

Depends on what you did to *their* ship.  <g> You could kill them or
drive them off without a working JDrive, that doesn't affect your
ability to maneuver or fight.  So when the fight is over and you've
won, you still have a fried jump coil...and no engineering skills
aboard?

>Now, if your pilot skips 3 engine checks at starport and then
>misjumps, well, big surprise.

..but a surprise that wouldn't have happened if the pilot wasn't
trying to do *everything* herself.

>I think the low crew numbers are based on the analogy that you
>run your starship like a car - you take it in for service
>regularly and you don't do anything stupid like jump from 10
>diameters or ram a local SDB.

I repeat, a starship is *not* like a car.  

You don't drive your car 24 hours a day, at high speed, through almost
constant hailstorms, not stopping for *anything* for a week.  You
don't regularly generate 10 million k temps in your car's engine.  You
don't do to a car whatever jumping does to a starship. 
Air-conditioning is a lot more important on a starship than on a car.
<g>

>Well, I think that ifyou run a ship with 1 or 2 hands, they have to
>be jack-of-all-trades, to a certain extent. Look at the kinds of
>skills your typical scouts has - pilot-1,navig-1 engineer-1, etc. He
>can do it all, to an extent.

Did I see engineer-1 up there?  So you do need that engineering skill,
huh?  <g> 

Look, I'm not ragging you, it's just most folks here act like the crew
numbers are physical laws.  The way I read them they are functions
that should be covered.  A ship that shows 3 Engineers doesn't mean
you've got to hire 3 beings who do nothing but service the engines, it
means there is expected to be enough work to keep 3 beings busy with
Engineering duties, and that might *really* mean a full time job for 1
depending on how the GM wants to play it.

>Also, the MF was _heavily_ modified. Stock ships should be almost
>self-maintaining, with the occasional checkup.

Not in *my* universe!
 
>Well, it's only stressful when you're not in jump. 

Not in *my* universe!  <g> I know most folks don't, but the way I run
things the technical/engineering people are as busy in jump space as
normal space.

>I'd expect that automation would make piloting a Type S ship no
>more stressful than driving a Ford Taurus.  Auto ignition, auto
>transmssion, ABS, etc.It's a long way from a Model T.

There you go again! <g>  

A Starship is *not* a car!

...and Rob it's not a commerical jetliner either. <g>

What a starship is, is a cranky, complex vessel with millions of
components running at the edge of their spec, on a constant preventive
maintenance schedule, and with so many quirks and so much
"personality" you'd swear it was alive.  You keep this beast running
through a black void of constant danger with just the materials and
skills you have aboard.  If you can get her to a port where somebody
else can do work on her you can't do, then count yourself lucky
because that just won't happen very often.

See?  In my Traveller ships don't fly themselves, it takes a Pilot
with skill.  Ships don't jump by themselves, it takes someone with
Astrogation skill.  And a ship won't keep running unless someone with
Engineering skill keeps her running.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 22:00:34 -0600
Subject: Re: Calling All Engineers!

On 06/20/96 at 11:15 AM,  Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM> said:

>I didn't say engineering skills were not needed by the crew.  You
>don't need a dedicated engineer on the flight.  

Rob, check out my post to Ethan about this.  We actually agree about
*dedicated* engineers aboard, but it's clear I give my technical
people more work to do than Ethan..probably more than you too. <g>

>Also, once the ship is in jump, there doesnt have to be any one
>sitting at the controls.   

Flight controls?  No, agreed.  So, during jump everybody is busy with
various maintanance task, and repairing the hundreds of little things
that go wrong.  How many hands are needed to do this depends on how
reliable the ship is, I guess...and I guess mine are less reliable
than yours.

>Traders and other small vessels are going to be a) maintained by the
>Captain/First Mate or b) the Company during dock visits.  

You hit A and B ports very often?  My PC's are lucky to see an A or B
more than 3 or 4 times a year.  

>TWA doesn't pack an engineer on board their 747's.  They are
>maintained between flights.  

Yes, but 747's don't stay aloft for a week at a time either.  The
between flight for a 747 comes up on the order of 8-12 hours max. If
that 747 was going to stay in the air for a week, I'd expect a bigger
crew aboard...wouldn't you?

>NASA doesn't maintain an engineer on board either.  The flight
>crew of two (Pilot and Commander) and the passangers (Mission
>Specialists) are capapble of making in flight repairs if
>possible.

The Shuttle doesn't get more than a few hundred miles from a landing
zone either.  If it *really* needs an engineer, it lands...actually it
better not *really* need one.  <g> I'd say all the crew of the Shuttle
have Engineering skill at some level, given that they are in constant
communication with experts on the ground and the level of training
they go through.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:45:44 -0500
Subject: DMS Sites

I remember reading that a DMS was basically a sphere the diameter of which
was the length of the barrel of the MG.  The sphere allowed the barrel to
rotate to any direction to fire at a target.  Also the DMW can only be
built so deep, and will most likely have to be built into a very
seismically stable area such as under the rockies.  After all you wouldn't
want to build a site that was seriously damaged every time a minor quake
hit.  It would also have to built VERY deep indeed to be unassailable from
the surface.  Cheyenne Mountain (NORAD HQ) is built under a mountain, and
allegedly could survive a direct strike by a nuke.  A DMS would have to be
even deeper and safer.

A 1000m MG would require is it 4*pi*r^3 volume just for the gun traverse
or 12.6 Trillion m^3 of solid rock to be excavated.  This would be a
daunting feat even at TL-15

- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 06:44:49 GMT
Subject: Re: Trin's Veil as A Defence Against Boulders.

Have you seen the movie, "Space Balls"?  8-)

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:55:29 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller New Era

On 20 Jun 96 at 21:00, matth spewed:

> Hi: 
> 
> I never got around to buying Traveller New Era. The primary reason
> being that as soon as I bought some stuff with Megatraveller , it was
> no longer supported and TNE was. Are the rules in TNE drastically 
> different than in MT/CT? 
> 

Pretty different as a whole.

Character Generation rules are radically different, as well as ship 
design & combat (space & ground).  No good backwards compatibility either...

Trade & Commerce are identical to MT, world generation is as well, 
although there is a modification system for creating the "Wilds" used 
in TNE.

All in all a drastic change in system.  More importantly to old line 
players, there is a much bigger emphasis on military adventures...
2 sample adventures are included, both of which are very military 
oriented, the character generation system even requires the players 
to be given call signs.  

There are a lot more career choices than in MT, but since virtually 
all the published material for TNE was designed with military/merc 
style adventures in mind, it's hard to imagine why somebody would 
want to play an entertainer or athlete in the game...

A lot of people objected to Virus.  I personally do not.  My only 
real beef with TNE was that it looked too much like Twilight: 2000 
with spaceships...  That and the fact that it was not backwards 
compatible with CT or MT.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:55:28 -0800
Subject: Re: MMT is NOT a misnomer.

On 20 Jun 96 at 16:53, Charles Collin spewed:

> Ken Whitman used MMT in a number of posts, so I don't think you can say 
> that it's a misnomer.  If Marc Miller doesn't use it, it is likely out of 
> modesty.  
> 

Point taken, but the fact that Marc himself prefers T4 would probably 
be the final word...

At least as final a word as anything is on this list... ;-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:55:29 -0800
Subject: Re: RFD: Reunification of the Lists

On 20 Jun 96 at 18:56, JEFF ZEITLIN spewed:

>   I am therefore formally requesting that discussion on
>   reunification of Traveller and XBoat be opened, with the proposed
>   name for the combined list being "Traveller".

Jeff,

I could not have put it more eloquently.  

Here's a second for your proposal.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:52:12 -0800
Subject: Starship Economics (Long)

On 20 Jun 96 at 23:07, James Lindsay spewed:

I'm sorry but the old Cr 1000 standard just sounds too arbitrary to me...

Envision this scenario...

Mr. Smith on the mainworld of system Backwater, with an E starport, 
hasn't seen a ship arrive on the cleared landing pad he has set up 
for the purpose in 6 weeks...

He has a few tons of cargo (say the cargo is several tons of a 
critical component of a vaccine for a plague on the high population 
world some 4 parsecs over), and the freight is very time sensitive... 
(people are dying after all).  A pharmaceutical company there will 
probably buy the component from Mr. Smith to manufacture the vaccine 
at a huge margin, making Mr. Smith a wealthy man, but only if he gets 
it there quickly...

Suddenly, in jumps Hal with his tramp free trader.  He comes into 
system about every 3 months to deliver mail.  Mr. Smith probably 
won't see another ship for 2 or 3 weeks minimum.  Hal finds out how critical 
it is to get this cargo to market for Mr. Smith, knows that Mr. Smith 
may not see another ship until Hal comes back in about 12 weeks, and 
knows how much of a bind Mr. Smith is in, and... GLADLY AGREES TO 
SHIP THE CARGO FOR THE STANDARD RATE OF Cr1000 per ton.

Is Hal a philanthropic sort, who would not want to take advantage of 
Mr. Smith (who will probably make a killer margin off the sale of the 
goods being transshipped, unless of course Mr. Smith paid the 
standard Merchant Prince base price of Cr4000, and plans to sell for 
the standard  base price of Cr5000)?  Is Hal a socialist, who completely 
ignores the realities of the free market system that Traveller's Imperium 
encourages...  Is Hal running a non-profit organization centered 
around his tramp freighter  (well, maybe)?  Nope, Hal is just following 
the rules for trade and commerce in Book 2, or the Merchant Prince 
system, which is the trade and commerce rules for every edition of 
Traveller released since CT.

Get real.  It's not a matter of whether Cr1000 makes a ship 
affordable or not.  It's a matter of totally ignoring how capitalism 
works.  The facts are that Hal is probably going to rape Mr. Smith 
for 3000 or more Cr per ton, because Mr. Smith's cargo is worthless 
if he doesn't get it to the pharmaceutical company fast...  Mr. Smith 
will gladly pay it, because the stuff only cost him about Cr2000 to 
produce, and he has an agreed to price from the pharmaceutical 
company to buy all he can ship at Cr10,000+.  And the pharmaceutical 
company will use a tiny bit of this in a vaccine that they will make 
a tidy profit off of, since you can't put a price on life...

Actually, the speculative rules for the newer editions of the rules 
(everything but book 2) are even more broken than the rules for 
shipping freight.

Let's carry on the example above...

Hal buys this time sensitive cargo off of Mr. Smith.  He buys it for 
slightly lower than the Cr4000 base price, at Cr3800 (base price according 
to Merchant Prince, MT & TNE), because Hal is, after all, an experienced 
trader.  Hal then assumes the cost of shipping that cargo himself (let's say for 
illustrative purposes, that Hal's cost to ship (salaries, overhead, 
payments, etc), is Cr800 per ton.  Hal has 4600 credits sunk in this stuff.  

He then busts a gut to get things loaded, and then ships this 
wonderful, time sensitive cargo over to the pharmaceutical company, 
where he gladly sells his cargo for Cr4200 credits, a net loss, per 
ton of Cr400.  Oh, I forgot to mention:  These two fictional worlds 
are on the Imperial-Solomani border.  The vaccine component is grown 
and processed on an Imperial world, but the plague (and the 
pharmaceutical company) are on a Solomani world, so deduct Cr1000 from 
the standard Cr5000 base to yield a Cr4000 base price.  Hal, shrewd 
trader that he is negotiated a gain of Cr200/ton over the base 
price...for a final selling price of Cr4200.  Never mind that the 
pharmaceutical company has people lined up waiting to buy the drug, 
never mind that Hal has a corner on the market, the pharmaceutical 
company is going to make Hal sell at a loss, and Hal is going to sell 
at a loss and smile about it...

It would be very conceivable under the trade and commerce rules for 
everything but Book 2, for ANY ship to lose money, if trade was their 
sole source of income...  Megacorps would be going the way of the 
dodo if they bought and sold in accordance with the Merchant Prince 
system...

Even worse, there is NO reason whatsoever for somebody to hire a 
carrier (like Mr. Smith did with Hal in the first example). since the 
difference in base price would be eaten up by the cost of the Cr1,000 
per ton to ship.

Book 2 isn't much better.  Some of the numbers there are badly out of 
whack at this point.  Try fitting Cr10,000,000 worth of computers 
into 14 m^3, for example.  Heck, by the time the 57th century rolls 
around, you probably wouldn't be able to put that much worth of 
computers into the cargo hold of a free trader, at the rate computer 
prices drop compared to power...

The trade and commerce rules do need an overhaul...If not in the basic 
rules, perhaps in a JTAS article, or a future supplement...

The book 2 speculative system is better, but needs more cargoes, and 
the numbers need to be tweaked.  At a minimum freight transshipping 
should include factors for all of the below:

Class of the shipping Starport
Class of the receiving Starport
Need for quick delivery
Negotiating skills of the shipper and owner of the goods
Amber Zone or Red Zone bonuses

Any thoughts?

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 11:25:58 +0200
Subject: Re: Reunification of the lists

     I've had great difficulty reading the huge amount of mail on TML & 
     X-boat recently (partly because I've been on holiday for 2 weeks), 
     most of which was duplicated.  I'm interested in Traveller, no matter 
     what the flavour (I can see useful & interesting bits in each).  
     Because of these reasons, I'd like to see the "Traveller Wall" broken 
     down, and the lists reunified.  Then we'll have a strong economy, 
     political clout and a football team that will still be beaten by 
     England :-):-) (boy, am I going to eat my words next Wednesday!)
     
     Cheers,
     Liam
     
     -- 
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #131
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 21 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 132

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. FW: Reunification of the lists
         2. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
         3. Re: Missing RC Ships
         4. RE: Corporations in space... (longish)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 10:12:00 PDT
Subject: FW: Reunification of the lists

 ----------
From: ROWAN Iain
To: xboat
Subject: RE: Reunification of the lists
Date: 21 June 1996 10:01

 jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN) kicked the ball off with:

>  Of late, I have observed that many messages that appear in
> Traveller digests appear in XBoat digests as well.  I cannot at
>  this time think of a single topic that is currently being
>  discussed on either list that is not also being discussed on the
>  other.

I agree.   I get the digest version, and whichever I read second
now takes next to no time to skim through, as I have already
read most of the articles.  I wouldn't want to unsubscribe from
one as I  wouldn't want to miss the odd article that's only posted
to it.

>  I am therefore formally requesting that discussion on
>  reunification of Traveller and XBoat be opened, with the proposed
>  name for the combined list being "Traveller".

I would second this.

Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> then added

>As a dedicated fan of Classic Traveller who doesn't own MT nor T:NE, I
>support a reunification of the lists.  I think people can refrain from
>flaming others' tastes in Traveller flavors.  (Besides, we should all
>agree to police this sort of thing, and hopefully Rob will boot truly
>abusive folks off the list.)

To me, the idea that there can't be any kind of cross-fertilisation
between the different flavours of Traveller is ridiculous.  Don't
like the TNE stats for an interesting NPC?  Substitute some CT/
MMT stats instead.  The real work is there in the ideas of the
description and character.  Stats are easy.  Don't like the CT
description of a long endurance stealth intelligence cruiser
because the CT description doesn't include the dimensions of
the waste water pipes in the plumbing system?  Maybe the
posting might inspire you to design your own version of the ship.
Maybe you could just skip over it.  Personally, I have to confess
that I am not too interested in the rock-velocity-planet-boom
thread, but hell, it's relevant to Traveller, and if people want to
discuss it that's fine by me, I'll just skip to the next thing that
does interest me.

But "Brent L. Woods" <woodsb@indy.net> added

>     Personally, I'd prefer that not happen.  I only subscribe to the
>Xboat list, because I don't *ever* want to hear *anything* about TNE
>(admittedly, some comment about that filth occasionally leaks over into
>Xboat, but life is much better here than on the original TML).

>     If the lists were consolidated, I'd have to completely unsubscribe,
>and as one of the original members of the old TML, I don't think I'd
>like that too much.

This is getting a bit much like the Wars of Religion for my liking.  Is it
really that much of an effort just to move on to an article that does
not offend your principles?  I think that if we all got this blinkered we
could end up with a proliferation of mailing lists - CT, MT, TNE, MMT,
CT with planet killing rocks, CT without planet killing rocks etc etc.  If
we all tried really hard we could end up with a list each that suited us
perfectly.  You could then be master of your own domain, where the
things you weren't keen on never darkened your RAM.  Conversation
would be a bit dull, mind.

Reality check:  It is only a GAME, much as we all love it.  A bit of
toleration for the things we don't like but others do might make
the list a more productive and interesting place. (Apologies for
sounding like the end of a Disney film..)

So, I would support a trial of a merged list.  After a while perhaps
we could all be invited to comment on what has really annoyed
us all and what we have liked most.  This might indicate the most
appropriate ways of splitting the lists should we need to.

Iain
iain.rowan@sunderland.ac.uk

------------------------------

From: grants@dove.net.au (Grant Sinclair)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:55:51 +0930
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

One of the IISS symbols (Exploration Office) is available at the very top
of the main page of the HIWG Australia web site, if anyone wants it. This
is because the site is prepared as if it were a RISS report. The URL is:
   http://dove.mtx.net.au/~grants/hiwg.html

The colours are just guesses, not canon.

It won't be there indefinitely, as I have just noticed in The Regency
Sourcebook that the Exploration Office is now closed! Just my luck, I'll
have to preparae one of the others now...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Grant Sinclair                  The mean time to need something after
                                discarding it is 2 weeks. This can be
grants@dove.net.au              reduced to 1 week by hanging on to
http://dove.mtx.net.au/~grants  it for a long time first.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 11:35:28 +0100
Subject: Re: Missing RC Ships

derek stanley writes:
> Personally I think there'd be a much more intensive search for
> Ashtabula, it is terribly important to the people of the RC.
> Perhaps they sent it off to contact the Regency?

Wasn't there some discussion a while ago as to how the Regency knew
about the RC early enough to make the quotes in the main rulebook?  I
think we have a viable suggestion.

Personally I like the idea of a Hiver plot, after all would they
really trust their pet humans with anything really dangerous?  Then
again I've never trusted "benevolent" aliens trying to manipulate us,
but that's back to Babylon 5 again.

			Chris.


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:10:10 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: RE: Corporations in space... (longish)

        Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
>
>Another great plot hook would be the arrival and dispatch of timely 
>information.  The fact that good or bad news might travel faster for 
>a megacorp (with bigger resources) as opposed to Joe's Mining 
>Company, is probably something that would give the Megacorps (who 
>could hire faster ships at will) an edge in a lot of instances.  A 
>guy with a fast ship in the right place at the right time could make 
>a killing off a little company...

        Good one!  That hadn't occurred to me yet, actually.  Insider
Traders in Space!  Something that's been bugging the hell out of me is the
question of securities regulation; just how the hell does one regulate
securities markets over the distances we're talking about?  What about
arbitrage between planets?  Would you get out-of-system incorporation
jurisdictions?

        I really have no idea how the absence of instantaneous
communications would affect a stock market.  I suspect that the equivalent
of today's trend towards globalization just wouldn't occur; that each
planet, perhaps each system, would have its own markets and regulators.
Perhaps where strong central governments existed, you'd get uniform
regulation and practices within their jurisdiction.  I'm just beginning to
wonder how this would affect financing practices.  Ye gods...

        Basically, I think that for all but the Mega-Corps, trading on more
than one planetary or systemic exchange would be pretty rare, although not
unheard-of.  Going multi-systemic would be a critical-mass sort of
operation, done only to finance major operations or expansions on the part
of smaller corps, or used by the really big ones who'd require such a huge
amount of capital that they'd have to tap into several planetary or systemic
markets simultaneously (!!!).  For stocks traded on only one (planetary or
systemic) exchange, the usual central depository system would probably work,
much like today.  For stocks traded in several systems, OTOH, I see two
possibilities; either it's all done via book entry systems (which would be
slow, impede trading, and make couriers rich), or it'd be done via bearer
securities (which would make heavily armed couriers rich).  Alternatively,
maybe  you'd see central depository systems located on several worlds
cooperating (actually, I think that this is most likely).  From an RPG angle
though, I much prefer the latter option >:).

>
>Your ideas on bearer securities are great...  I can see adventure 
>ideas forming in my head as we speak...

        Here's one that I've been mulling over: Mega-Corp X appears to be
the target of a systematic attempt to drive down its share prices by
releasing perfectly forged bearer shares (voting ones) into several
planetary markets.  Obviously, the directors of Xco don't want the news to
get out, because then Xco stock would tank, and aside from the damage to
their personal portfolios someone could pull a street sweep takeover and
then they'd all get turfed.  So, they secretly assign the players (all of
whom, it turns out, actually work for Xco or one of its subsidiaries in
whatever capacity) to find out and deal with whoever is responsible, and off
they go in a nice fast spanking new ship with enormous expense accounts,
letters of introduction, get out of jail free cards, lots of really big
guns, and solid gold plumbing in the Jacuzzi.

        The ending (after the usual RPG shenanigans/carnage/much
intimidation of yuppies) would be as follows:  it turns out that the
individual behind it was the chairman of Xco's board, who was using Xco's
own facilities to turn out the counterfeits.  His aim, (which succeeded
during the shenanigans) was to have the news get out, so that *he* could buy
up a control block at a really, really cut rate and take over the company.
Their mission, in fact, was just a distraction for the other directors, and
in fact had no chance of success.  When confronted by the PC's, he simply
offers them huge promotions and a block of stock that while being
chicken-feed to him is worth more than they'll make over a couple of
centuries.  Optional endings include:

1) They Do The Right Thing And Blow The Whistle: they fight their way out of
the boardroom, the villian gets fried in the crossfire or goes to jail, they
all live happily ever after, perhaps getting gold watches and minor
promotions from the grateful Xco (the goody two-shoes ending).

2) They Sell Out:  this gives us more options:

        2.1: They become fabulously wealthy over the next few adventures
acting         as heavies for the villain (the amoral ref ending).
        2.2: As per 2.1 save that they begin disappearing mysteriously,
leading         the survivors to run like hell to save their butts: end
result is they         have a Mega-Corp out to get them (the evil ref ending).
        2.3: They figure that 2.2 is going to occur so they gracefully
accept,            and as soon as they have their hands on their share
certificates then         get the hell out of Dodge.  End result is as 2.2
save they all live and         are somewhat richer (the paranoid player ending).

3) They Figure It Out and Run For It: They solve the mystery, and decide to
take the ship and set up as pirates or open a spacegoing brothel or whatever
(the really paranoid player ending).

        What are your plot ideas like?



   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   |-------------------------------------------------|
   | "An imperfect plan implemented immediately and  |
   |  violently will always succeed better than a    |
   |  perfect plan"                                  |
   |	             -Gen. George Patton             |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #132
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 21 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 133

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Test
         2. Re: Pushing boulders (rocks)
         3. Re: Pushing boulders
         4. Re: Trin's Veil as Asteroid Defense.
         5. Re: Re-unifying the lists.
         6. Re: Corporations in space
         7. Re: Traveller New Era
         8. Re: FW: Reunification of the lists
         9. Orbital junk as planetary defense
        10. RE: Calling All Engineers!
        11. House Trade Rules
        12. Engineers
        13. Update needed!
        14. Re: FW: Reunification of the lists
        15. Re: House Trade Rules
        16. Re: Calling All Engineers!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:12:33 +0100
Subject: Test

Transmission test (my e-mail has been playing up)!

Andy :-)


------------------------------

From: Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:09:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Pushing boulders (rocks)

On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> >From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
> 
> >Subject: Pushing boulders
> >


On space physics in general:

This isn't a relativity issue it's a frictionless environment issue. In
space there's nothing to slow you down like there is here on earth so you
don't have to constantly add more energy to the vehicle to keep it moving.
To go back to the car in space you can coast forever with the motor turned
off because their isn't anything slowing you down. So a ship with a couple
of low passage berths stranded in between stars with a dead jump drive has
a reasonable chance of survival just by pointing at the nearest system and
accelerating for as long as possible. If they can make 0.1 c they'll 
cover a system hex every 32.6 years. 


BTW: The reason 0.1c is bounced about as a number here is because it's 
the highest speed you can reach and still ignore the effects of relativity.

> 
> Another question, someone mentioned that a rock moving near the speed of
> light (I think that was the speed to which they referred) would make it to
> the surface of a planet regardless of size.  (I think that's what they said)
> How is this possible?
> 

Near the speed of light being above 0.5c. This is a horse of a different 
color than the current discussion. The reason that it would make it to 
the surface is because it's moving so fast that it wouldn't have enough 
time to vaporize before it hit. 

You lose a lot of energy liberated into the atmosphere this way but you 
gain it back in earthquakes when the rock hit's the ground. 

Chris
- --
      __o          "All I was doing was trying to get home from work."
    _`\<,_           -Rosa Parks
___(*)/_(*)___________________________________________________________
Christopher Sean Hilton                           <chris@vindaloo.com>
                           For pgp key finger: <chilton@shoga.wwa.com>


------------------------------

From: gsw@aloft.att.com
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:41:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Pushing boulders

Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net> writes:

>    *SPEED DOESN'T MATTER*
> [...] What *does* matter in space is acceleration.

You've hit the nail on the head. But keep in mind that in a star
system, the relative velocity of objects is generally below 50 km/s.
If you start having spacecraft accelerate (themselves and/or rocks)
to over 30,000 km/s relative to the rest of the system, you have a
problem.

You could look at it this way: acceleration adds energy to the
system. The real problem is that no civilian ship should be able to
generate enough energy *on its own* to destroy a planet. Sure, it
could redirect an asteroid from a nearby orbit--we could do that
with today's technology. Sure, it could hit the planet at 50 km/s
just by "stopping" in front of it, hitting like a nuke (but not
*destroying* the planet). There's no point denying that these can
be done. This is not in the same league as being able to add over
30,000 km/s (0.1c) to your velocity, though.

CT thrusters were capable of terrific and sustained acceleration.
They also had far too low of an energy requirement. You could just
raise the energy requirements. If you keep high acceleration you are
still adding a great deal of energy to the system, but at least you
are acknowledging it. Unfortunately, it raises the issue about how
else that energy can be used (e.g., by blowing the reactor). I only
suggested the "zeta field" as a way to keep the acceleration but not
the energy. If anyone has a better way to do this, I'm all ears. Of
course, you could instead reduce the acceleration capability, but I
was under the impression that CT-type thrusters *were* coming back.

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-



------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:57:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Trin's Veil as Asteroid Defense.

Hi all.  Boy, I can never get enough of the dropping rocks thread! :-)

Tom Ellis wrote:

_________
A) You'd end up with a whole bunch of little rocks, just about as
destructive.
_________

Are you sure about that?  Would the rock not be vaporized?  If the rock
gets busted up small enough, the smaller particles would tend to burn up
in the atmosphere more easily (more total surface area) and deflect off
the atmosphere (less individual momentum) more readily.  Also, if they are
small enough, the damage would be significantly less due to lack of holes
in the planetary crust and other nasty effects of a single big impact. 
Generally speaking, it is always better to spread out an impact then
absorb it in one spot.  If the shell is at 50000 km (.16 ls) from the
world, and the peices of the busted rock fly outwards at 5000 m/s (not
sure this is a realistic figure, just kinda made it up.), then the peices
of a rock moving at .1 C would spread out in a circle about 8 km in
radius.  If this is not enough to lessen the effects of impact, you 
simply have to move the shell out more. 

It all depends how much energy is being put into the rock when it hits a
particle in the shell and whether that's enough to really pulverized it. 
As I mentioned, if the 1 gram particles are not enough to do this, then 10
gram particles can be used (or 100 grams, whatever). 

You could even make two layers of shell: one to bust the rock into peices
and another to bust the peices into in dust.  You would seperate the
shells somewhat so that the peices had time to spread out and each hit
their own individual "inner shell" particle.  This is all off the top of 
my head, so trash away! :-)

__________
B) You'd create your own navigational hazard with all that stuff floating
around your world.
__________

As I mentioned, there are ways around this.  The satelite network which 
creates gates in the shell can also keep it in place so that it would 
have clearly defined boundaries.  In any case,  demanding that ships 
near your planet move in a certain manner so as to avoid damaging impacts 
with the particles is not a big imposition (one would expect this as a 
matter of course in space traffic control to prevent disastrous crashes onto 
the planet surface anyway, I would think).

I'm not arrogant enough to think that I've got it all figure out, so any 
feedback (especially about energy levels required to pulverize rocks) 
would be appreciated.

Happy Travelling,
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:01:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Re-unifying the lists.

Hi all.  I would like to second (third? fourth?) the vote for unifying 
the lists.  Those who can't get along can get lost (There, that wasn't 
too much like a Disney flick, was it? :-).

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 15:57:26 +0200
Subject: Re: Corporations in space

     This is the kind of stuff that I think would be really useful for T4.  
     The effects of non-instantaneous communications are wide ranging, and 
     open up a whole raft of adventure opportunities, as has been shown in 
     previous posts.  I hope some essays about this make it into either the 
     Milieu 0 sourcebook or the basic rules (since it would affect all the 
     milieu in a similar way).
     
     Also, this is the kind of stuff that I know very little about, but 
     find quite interesting.
     
     Cheers,
     Liam
     
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:05:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller New Era

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> Character Generation rules are radically different, as well as ship
> design & combat (space & ground).  No good backwards compatibility either...

Actually there was backwards compatability.  But you had to buy Survival 
Margin to get it.  Have you ever tried to convert a CT character to TNE? 
 Those old Imperial Marines were killers.  8)
 
> All in all a drastic change in system.  More importantly to old line
> players, there is a much bigger emphasis on military adventures...
> 2 sample adventures are included, both of which are very military
> oriented, the character generation system even requires the players
> to be given call signs.

There is a certian "Gung Ho" attitude about the adventures but neither of 
them are true Military Op's.  And the Call Sign thing is only for RC 
characters.  Not an uncommon thing there are plenty of military 
organizations today that use call signs.  Besides its more fun to call 
someone Grumble than Dr. Habius.  8)
 
> There are a lot more career choices than in MT, but since virtually
> all the published material for TNE was designed with military/merc
> style adventures in mind, it's hard to imagine why somebody would
> want to play an entertainer or athlete in the game...

Actually an entertainer makes a great charater, you just have to figure 
out something to do with the characters.  I took entertainer, agent (?) 
and it made just a killer covert op working in the wilds.  Athlete, ya 
what's the point...
 
> A lot of people objected to Virus.  I personally do not.  My only
> real beef with TNE was that it looked too much like Twilight: 2000
> with spaceships...  That and the fact that it was not backwards
> compatible with CT or MT.

This is because it used GDW's house rules system.  The system that began 
with T2000.  Unfortunately you're right about backwards compatibility.  
If you had all the old books there was nothing you could do with the gear 
contained there in.  It ment a constant re-engineering of stuff to give 
it NE stats.

DS

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:08:55 -0700
Subject: Re: FW: Reunification of the lists

> Personally, I'd prefer that not happen.  I only subscribe to the
>Xboat list, because I don't *ever* want to hear *anything* about TNE
>(admittedly, some comment about that filth occasionally leaks over into
>Xboat, but life is much better here than on the original TML).
>If the lists were consolidated, I'd have to completely unsubscribe,
>and as one of the original members of the old TML, I don't think I'd
>like that too much.

Well Stu there goes you two weeks of not saying system "X" sucks.  
There's alway's one in a crowd.

DS

------------------------------

From: "TOM O'NEILL" <tom@csvax1.ucc.ie>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 15:10:41 BST
Subject: Orbital junk as planetary defense

Recently someone suggested putting a shell of dust around a planet as a defense
against rock-tossing. The thing is that shell will already be around any planet
with a lot of traffic. Even now there is a lot of junk in low earth orbit, and
we don't have large numbers of starship traffic as of yet (UFO believers
aside). 

	On a Type A starport planet with high traffic, there will be a constant
amount of junk placed in orbit from paint flakes, waste emissions, leaks,
accidents and orbital industries. This will present a hazard to navigation and
will probably be very expensive to clean up. So there may be cleared space lanes
around planets that are certified as safe for civilian traffic, and travel
outside those lanes is both prohibited and dangerous. Of course there would be
cleared military lanes as well. The lack of repulsor technology in FF&S
eliminates one solution. ESA is a possible defense against the smaller junk.

	This illustrates the problem of speculating about hypothetical defenses
against hypothetical weapons - we don't have all the details we need, and
peoples prejudices differ as to the answers we want. Or do you want all your
starship captains to be subject to constant psychological scrutiny and testing 
for stability and fitness to safely operate a potentially planet-killing 
device?

  Tom O'Neill  |   Tom@CSVAX1.UCC.IE        SCCS6085@IRUCCVAX.UCC.IE 
- ---------------!--------------------------------------------------------------
                    Fact is stranger than fiction

------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 14:40:16 GMT
Subject: RE: Calling All Engineers!

 
From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com> 
 
>> >Engineers just plain are not needed on non-military vessels. 
>> >All other vessels, visit a starport every week.  If things need 
>> >fixed or maintained it is done then. 
>> >I think that one engineer per 500T of hull would be much more 
>> >realistic.  Under 500T, engineering duties are handled by the 
>> >flight deck crew, ah la Hans and Chewy.  500T to 999T You need an 
>> >engineer etc. 
 
>Perhaps we should look at the example set by the USAF, or even civilian 
>airliners to answer this. 
>on a B-52, there is allways a flight engineer. 
>on a 757, there is allways a flight engineer. 
>Admittedly, the traditional role of engineer on a starship bears little 
>to no resemblance to that of engineer on an aircraft (except perhaps 
[snip] 
 
Gah!  Y'all are still overlooking something important: a starship is NOT 
an airplane!  A better analogue is a SHIP.  An even better one is a 
SUBMARINE.  Airplanes do not leave the ground and fly around for 2 or 
more weeks before returning; ships leave port for cruises like that all 
the time.  Ships and airplanes stay in radio contact with home base, and 
don't have to worry about life support beyond food and water for weeks 
at a time; submarines go out of contact with the rest of the universe 
for weeks or months, and have to carry internal life support or extract 
it from the surrounding hostile environment. 
 
Guess what?  Both ships and submarines carry full-time engineers, whose 
job is that and nothing but that.  A lot of them carry many more than 
one. 
 
And another thing: some of you are still overlooking the difference 
between military and civilian crew requirements.  They are different, 
and should be calculated differently.  Military ships have as large a 
crew as they can get away with for two reasons (a) spare crew, and (b) 
DAMAGE CONTROL!  Military ships are intended to "go in harm's way", and 
possibly lose crewmembers, and have big, ugly holes punched in the ship. 
Someone who's manning the guns or babysitting the reactor can't always 
be spared in the middle of a battle to help plug that hole in the hull 
that seawater is pouring through...  Or put out that fire on the flight 
deck that just killed 27 guys when the loaded bombs on the burning 
fighter blew up... 
 
Civilian ships have as small a crew as they can get away with, because 
crew cost money!  You have to pay them, and you have to have space to 
house and feed them that could be going to paying cargo hold or 
passenger cabin space.  Civilian ships are intended to stay far, far 
away from trouble, so they don't need a crew the size of a military 
vessel's crew.  They just need enough guys to operate the ship and take 
care of any passengers. 
 
I suspect that the rules for calculating civilian ship crews and the 
rule for calculating the size of a "skeleton" crew (minimum to get the 
ship underway) for a military ship should look almost identical.  A 
civilian ship *has* a skeleton crew + cargo-handlers/pursers + 
passenger-service crew. 
 
                         --Cynthia 
 
- -- 
"The Internet is a telephone system that's gotten uppity." 
                                                -- Clifford Stoll 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---------- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 14:40:19 GMT
Subject: House Trade Rules

 
 
Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) sez: 
 
>I've used a modified set of Book 2 trade rules for years.  I sent the 
>full version off to IG (and haven't heard back yet), but here is a 
>summary: 
 
>TRADE TABLES 
 
>Every planet has unique trade tables, just as every planet has unique 
>animal encounter tables.  These look like those in CT Book 2, except 
>that: 
 
>a) There is a base cost (for buying) and a base price (for selling).   
>b) There are no purchase DMs (figured into the base cost already). 
>c) Referee adds names (just as for animals). 
>d) Goods also have a 'volatility factor' (see below) 
 
[snip] 
 
>Comments? 
 
This is a stroke of sheer genius!  Generating trade tables the way you 
do animal encounter tables--I love it!  Perfect!  And we can use those 
MT/TNE expanded type-of-goods tables to fill in the "generic" 
descriptions... Someone get Mark Miller's attention on this!  I always 
perferred the CT trade tables myself... Do you want commentary and help 
kicking the bugs out?  Steve and I can help you find the breakdown 
points. 
 
BTW, what *is* the GDW-beta list for?  Isn't the name a bit out of date?  
Is it still active, and what do you do there? 
 
BTW #2, are we still using the traditional format for mapping and 
displaying subsectors & sectors?  i.e., 2D, 8x10 or 32x40 hexagonal 
grids?  I'd like to know before I get back into my X sector map 
programming project... 
 
Also, what's the general range of software that's been written for 
Traveller now?  How about text files, HTML stuff, pictures, icons, 
backgrounds, deck plans, etc?  What formats are people using?  Does 
everyone assume Windows?  Some of us are running other things... 
 
                           --Cynthia 
 
- -- 
"The Internet is a telephone system that's gotten uppity." 
                                                -- Clifford Stoll 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---------- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com 
- -- 
"The Internet is a telephone system that's gotten uppity." 
                                                -- Clifford Stoll 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---------- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 15:48:32 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Engineers

I end up always playing an engineer
'cause the rest have taken the more 'lucrative' posts.

But you can create some great gadgets to prevent a pirate
takeover :)

Oh can you track a ship through jump space?
and is there a decoy boy design (jump engine) to lead the persuers
away from your trail.

Is it possible to design a 'space submarine' that resides primarily
in jump space, 'surfaces' occaisionaly in normal space and re-enters
jump space.  

Is it possible to survive in jump space and how does time work.
If the jump drive is damaged during jump will you just come into normal
space or will you remain in jump?


ps
In 4 weeks time could you remove my name from the mailing list


------------------------------

From: muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (John Kovalic)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:04:14 -0500
Subject: Update needed!

Okay,

Between my recent marriage and business trips, I haven't had a lot of time
to keep up with the threads here. But I *do* know that the next edition of
Traveller will be based on the original.

My question is: HOW closely? If I start a Classic Traveller campaign with
my roleplaying group, will it be easy to update once T4 (MMT) comes out?

If someone could e-mail me and let me know approximate answers to the
following questions, I'd be REALLY greatful:

1) How close will the new Traveller be to the classic? In particular, with
regards to character generation and combat.

2) Does it look as if ship design will be compatible with High Guard or
Trillion Credit Squadron?

3) Does it look as if the starship combat game will be more along the lines
of Mayday or of Brilliant Lances?

4) Will ship and weapon design be as complex as FF&S?

I know much of this may still be speculative, but I'd really appreciate any
educated guesses. I'm trying to figure out whether it's worth restarting my
campaign now, or waiting until T4 (or MMT) is out.

Many thanks,

John Kovalic

PS. I hear characters will no longer risk death during generation. Am I the
only person who LOVED the fact that they could kick the bucket before the
game even started? To me, this was the risk you took in trying to come up
with a pumped-up "Super Character." The time alone you'd spend creating
your character meant that you didn't want to take that one last crap shoot
and risk losing your beloved creation.



******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:15:28 -0800
Subject: Re: FW: Reunification of the lists

On 21 Jun 96 at 7:08, derek stanley spewed:

> >Xboat list, because I don't *ever* want to hear *anything* about TNE
> >(admittedly, some comment about that filth occasionally leaks over into
> >Xboat, but life is much better here than on the original TML).
> 
> Well Stu there goes you two weeks of not saying system "X" sucks.  
> There's alway's one in a crowd.

Yup...so much for the Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along..." 
approach to the mailing lists...God, I do so much love people that 
have such an open mind that they can't just ignore somebody saying 
something they disagree with...

The silly thing is that other than FF&S being the ship design system, 
there has been almost NO discussion about TNE on the TML list in 
recent weeks.  If people like Brent Woods could just ignore the 
occasional TNE related posts (as I often do), the non-T4 related 
traffic on TML is so low that there's no reason to have 2 lists.  95% 
of the stuff on XTML right now is crossposts from TML.  TML is so 
heavy because of discussion of design topics related to T4.

But, I guess that until any remaining support drains away from either 
CT/MT or TNE we're going to have 2 lists.  Or be prepared to don the 
asbestos underwear from the occasional totally disgruntled TMLer 
going postal like Phil Pugliese last week...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:22:33 -0800
Subject: Re: House Trade Rules

On 20 Jun 96 at 15:38, Rob Prior spewed:

> I've used a modified set of Book 2 trade rules for years.  I sent the full
> version off to IG (and haven't heard back yet), but here is a summary:
> 

Rob,

I gotta tell ya, this idea is about a thousand times better than 
anything I've seen yet...  

I sure hope IG gives it serious consideration... :-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 12:03:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Calling All Engineers!

> From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
> Subject: Re: Calling All Engineers!
> On 06/20/96 at 10:25 AM,  Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com> said:
> >What if the "coolant regulator" breaks down on your car in the middle
> >of nowhere? (Or, as my friends did, in the middle of downtown
> >Toronto, at midnight...) 
> 
> Ethan, you get on your cell phone and call AAA...or in the case of
> Toronto the Canadian version of 911.  <g> And before you bring it up,
> if you are cell-less you can *always* try to walk for help.  Try that
> in space.  Try it in a star system somewhere off the beaten track.

The bulk of ships don't go to those systems. Why would anyone
but a PC ship go to an empty system and risk a whole month's income?

> Starships are not automobiles, not in my games anyway.  An air-raft,
> that's a car.

Here I'll add the standard note about everyone having their own
universe, so your view of starships may differ from mine...

> >You don't need an engineer to fix _every_ emergency.  Anyone
> >with mechanical, electronic, robotic, gravitic, engineering,
> >etc-1 should do.
> 
> So what's an engineer?  It's someone with "mechanical,
> electronic, robotic, gravitic, engineering, etc-1" skills Maybe the
> problem is a difference in terminology, I'm saying you've got to have
> someone with repair, technical & engineering *skills* to fill the
> engineering function.  That person can *also* have other duties...when
> he isn't keeping the gravtics working he's in the kitchen.  <g>


Ah! What's an engineer? I'd say someone with min. engineering-3
and engineering is their primary skill... someone with
engineering-1 is competent, but not "an engineer". (Plus,
for you Canadians, the engineer needs to have a little iron
pinky ring too...) Anyways, I think our main difference is
one of terminology.

> >As for pirates, if they blow a hole in your hull, then you'll
> >probably be captured or killed, or both. When you're dead,  thinghs
> >like jump coils just don't matter like they used to.
> 
> Depends on what you did to *their* ship.  <g> You could kill them or
> drive them off without a working JDrive, that doesn't affect your
> ability to maneuver or fight.  So when the fight is over and you've
> won, you still have a fried jump coil...and no engineering skills
> aboard?

My point was that if you're running a ship with only one or two people,
you'l l likely get wiped out by pirates. Besides, where is this
fight taking place? If it's an uninhabitated system, well, it didn't
happen as no short handed trader  crew in their right mind would
go there... otherwise, limp back to the port you came from.
 
> >Now, if your pilot skips 3 engine checks at starport and then
> >misjumps, well, big surprise.
> 
> ..but a surprise that wouldn't have happened if the pilot wasn't
> trying to do *everything* herself.

Nor would it have happened if he had gone and gotten the maintenance done.

> >I think the low crew numbers are based on the analogy that you
> >run your starship like a car - you take it in for service
> >regularly and you don't do anything stupid like jump from 10
> >diameters or ram a local SDB.
> 
> I repeat, a starship is *not* like a car.  
> 
> You don't drive your car 24 hours a day, at high speed, through almost
> constant hailstorms, not stopping for *anything* for a week.  You
> don't regularly generate 10 million k temps in your car's engine.  You
> don't do to a car whatever jumping does to a starship. 
> Air-conditioning is a lot more important on a starship than on a car.
> <g>
> 
> >Well, I think that ifyou run a ship with 1 or 2 hands, they have to
> >be jack-of-all-trades, to a certain extent. Look at the kinds of
> >skills your typical scouts has - pilot-1,navig-1 engineer-1, etc. He
> >can do it all, to an extent.
> 
> Did I see engineer-1 up there?  So you do need that engineering skill,
> huh?  <g> 

I never said you didn't need engineering skill, I said you didn't
need an engineer. :) There's a difference. Again, please note
the engineer's completely irrelevant degree from the Institute
on Rhylanor (or whereever) stating he's an engineer. This is not
the same as the scout who has completely done a field disassembly
of his entire class S Scout on a vacuum moon once 'cause he was bored. :)

> Look, I'm not ragging you, it's just most folks here act like the crew
> numbers are physical laws.  The way I read them they are functions
> that should be covered.  A ship that shows 3 Engineers doesn't mean
> you've got to hire 3 beings who do nothing but service the engines, it
> means there is expected to be enough work to keep 3 beings busy with

I agree. But a ship that only requires one or two engineers can
get by with one 80% of the time and a big starport crew the other
20%.

> Not in *my* universe!
> 
> Not in *my* universe!  <g> I know most folks don't, but the way I run
> things the technical/engineering people are as busy in jump space as
> normal space.
> 
> There you go again! <g>  
> [etc]
> A Starship is *not* a car!
> 
> What a starship is, is a cranky, complex vessel with millions of
> components running at the edge of their spec, on a constant preventive
> maintenance schedule, and with so many quirks and so much
> "personality" you'd swear it was alive.  You keep this beast running
> through a black void of constant danger with just the materials and
> skills you have aboard.  If you can get her to a port where somebody
> else can do work on her you can't do, then count yourself lucky
> because that just won't happen very often.
> 
> See?  In my Traveller ships don't fly themselves, it takes a Pilot
> with skill.  Ships don't jump by themselves, it takes someone with
> Astrogation skill.  And a ship won't keep running unless someone with
> Engineering skill keeps her running.

Well, like cars, some people have cars that act the way you describe 
starships - cranky, hand-assembeled collections of highly volatile
and odd parts. Of course, some people never lift the hood. 

I don't think it would be possible to support the volume of interstellar
traffic that exists in the imperium without a reasonable level
of automation and reliability in starships. Which is not to say
that every ship is like this, but I'd say that a lot of traders are.

But to get back to my first paragraph, I think my main point
was that engineering skill != engineer. Maybe it's being an actual
engineering graduate (with precious little engineering skill I might
add ;), but like a lot of professions, there'sstrict rules covering
who is and isn't an engineer, regardless of what skills everyone possesses.
It's like saying Medical-3 is a doctor (in CT terms, sorry).
Engineering-3 is an Engineer. Enginering-1, while perfectly capable
of filling an engineering crew spot, isn't an engineer. 

Ethan "Not Anal, Really" Henry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #133
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 21 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 134

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: Corporations in space... (longish)
         2. Re: Engineers
         3. Re: FW: Reunification of the lists
         4. Re: American Copyright Law
         5. Re: Missing RC Ships
         6. crossposting
         7. Re: Legal Systems
         8. Re: Imperial Heraldry
         9. Re: Naked without guns
        10. Re: Explosive decompression...not
        11. Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)
        12. Re: Symbols of the New Imperium
        13. Trade and Commerce Rules
        14. Re: Pushing rocks/boulders/megapebbles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:07:55 -0800
Subject: RE: Corporations in space... (longish)

On 21 Jun 96 at 19:10, Roderick Darroch Elliott spewed:

>         I really have no idea how the absence of instantaneous
> communications would affect a stock market.  I suspect that the equivalent
> of today's trend towards globalization just wouldn't occur; that each
> planet, perhaps each system, would have its own markets and regulators.
> Perhaps where strong central governments existed, you'd get uniform
> regulation and practices within their jurisdiction.  I'm just beginning to
> wonder how this would affect financing practices.  Ye gods...

You know, I really wasn't sure about this 1 either, but I suspect 
that stock markets (particularly for those dealing off-world 
securities) are going to be even more tightly regulated...  I 
remember 1 of the early-TNS entries talking about Tukera buying drop 
tanks from General Shipyards, and Oberlindes lines dropping 27 
poijnts, and the exchange suspending trading...

Kind of brings up an interesting scenario...  Imagine what would have 
happened to Johnson & Johnson during the Tylenol scare, if J&J 
headquarters didn't happen to be in the same system as the exchange it 
was traded on.  News releases about people dying from tainted 
capsules spreads far and wide across the sector, before J&J top 
management even hears about the disaster to begin formulating the 
responses.  Meanwhile, every day, the stock drops like a rock.  
Pretty soon, a thousand shares of Johnson & Johnson would be worth 
the price of a cup of coffee, and J&J might not even have heard about 
the incidents yet.  Again, the megacorps have the edge, because they 
have offices on most major worlds (and 1 would imagine just about 
every world where their stock was traded...   

I could see several scenarios out of this.

1)  Megacorporation thinks small, but dynamic competitor is becoming 
a serious threat, and starts sending xboat messages about pending 
demise of and disasters affecting the company.  PC's must trace 
source of rumors and eliminate (possibly incurring rath of the 
megacorp).

2)  New company on a backwater world develops a dynamic new process 
for manufacturing or a new technology, but needs to send a press 
release to the nearest xboat route.  PC's are charged with 
intercepting this message before it hits the xboat network...

3) As a follow up to number 2, Megacorp, having successfully 
preventing the transmittal of the message, substitutes a message of 
their own, telling a tale of woe about the smaller company, causing 
the company's stock to plummet to the point where they would not be 
able to finance the new product's manufacture, allowing Megacorp to 
buy the company for pennies on the dollar, and then manufacture the 
product itself...

>         Basically, I think that for all but the Mega-Corps, trading on more
> than one planetary or systemic exchange would be pretty rare, although not
> unheard-of.  Going multi-systemic would be a critical-mass sort of

Very, very true...

> securities (which would make heavily armed couriers rich).  Alternatively,
> maybe  you'd see central depository systems located on several worlds
> cooperating (actually, I think that this is most likely).  From an RPG angle
> though, I much prefer the latter option >:).

Even if the central depository systems cooperating would be very 
subject to a corporate sponsored PC group creating a lost message 
here, a lost message there...  Basically with STL communications, you 
should be able to manipulate the stock market artificially in all 
sorts of ways.  Probably much like the robber barons of the late 19th 
century did in the US...

> >Your ideas on bearer securities are great...  I can see adventure 
> >ideas forming in my head as we speak...
> 
>         Here's one that I've been mulling over: Mega-Corp X appears to be
> the target of a systematic attempt to drive down its share prices by
> releasing perfectly forged bearer shares (voting ones) into several
> planetary markets.  Obviously, the directors of Xco don't want the news to

<snip>

>         The ending (after the usual RPG shenanigans/carnage/much
> intimidation of yuppies) would be as follows:  it turns out that the

I'm all in favor of intimidation of yuppies :-)

I hadn't developed any of them to any great extent, but here they 
are.

1)  Company X has a large number of securities stolen, PC's must 
recover
a) theft was an inside job by company employees
b) theft was a simple burglary
c) theft was result of piracy
d) some combination of the above...

2) I saw the same sort of forgery scenario as well...
a) forgery is inside job
b) forgery is being done by Company Y, which is plotting hostile 
takeover of Company X
c) forgery is the work of a total outsider, with no motive other than 
simple greed
d) some combination of the above.

3) PC's are hired as couriers of bearer securities for a critical 
transaction, a buyout of company X by company Y, but somebody doesn't 
want the deal to go through (a major shareholder in 1 of the 
companies, upper management in company X who fear for their future 
employment).  PC's face a number of attempts to recover bearer 
securities ranging from muggings and robberies, to piracy, to 
impersonating the legitimate receiving parties of the securities...

I'm sure with a little creativity, we or someone else could come up 
with more...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:43:15 -0700
Subject: Re: Engineers

t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk wrote:
 
> Oh can you track a ship through jump space?
> and is there a decoy boy design (jump engine) to lead the persuers
> away from your trail.

Once the ship is in J-Space no.  However, having said that and I know I'm 
likely to get jumped all over for this one, if you watch a ship enter 
J-Space you can figure out where it's going.  If the military is persuing 
you and you don't want them to figure out where you've gone.  Detonate a 
nuclear missle in your vacinity and white out the hex.  This works in TNE 
with the x-ray detonation lasers, I don't know about CT, MT or T4.
 
> Is it possible to design a 'space submarine' that resides primarily
> in jump space, 'surfaces' occaisionaly in normal space and re-enters
> jump space.

You've been watching Sol Bianca haven't you?  Being in J-Space consumes a 
lot of fuel, cooling etc.  In theory yes, however unfortunately because 
of the way things work in J-Space you'd be stuck there for a week unless 
you've found some really nifty way of getting around that feature.  I'll 
bet the ancients could do it.
 
> Is it possible to survive in jump space and how does time work.
> If the jump drive is damaged during jump will you just come into normal
> space or will you remain in jump?

No, it is not possible to survive in J-Space.  You're talking about 
spacing some one here right?  See Challange issue 75 "The madness 
effect."  It's an adventure set on a Sub-liner that forms a defective 
jump bubble.  Because the passangers are incapable of dealing with the 
effects of J-Space they start to go crazy.  This should answer both 
questions I hope.

DS

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:49:26 -0700
Subject: Re: FW: Reunification of the lists

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> > Well Stu there goes you two weeks of not saying system "X" sucks.
> > There's alway's one in a crowd.
> 
> Yup...so much for the Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along..."
> approach to the mailing lists...God, I do so much love people that
> have such an open mind that they can't just ignore somebody saying
> something they disagree with...

Ya, I"m kinda tired of receiving 80 messages every morning and knowing 
that 30 of them are the same message.

> But, I guess that until any remaining support drains away from either
> CT/MT or TNE we're going to have 2 lists.  Or be prepared to don the
> asbestos underwear from the occasional totally disgruntled TMLer
> going postal like Phil Pugliese last week...

Ah yes, good old Phil...  I hated having to shove him out the airlock 
like that, but I told him the floor was slippery but he just wouldn't 
listen.  8)

DS

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 05:48:17 PST
Subject: Re: American Copyright Law

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) writes:

> >While it may not have been created by SJG, the
> >eye-on-the-pyramid is copyrighted by SJG.  I think that this allows it
> >to use the symbol exclusively for gaming purposes (so they can't sue
> >the US gov't for putting the symbol on a dollar bill).
> 
> This sounds really wierd.  Actually, it sounds really stupid -- the
> eye-in-a-pyramid has been around longer than Steve Jackson's been alive, so
> how can he copyright it in _any_ capacity?  And this the same legal system
> that ruled that Apple couldn't copyright the trash can on a computer screen,
> because trash cans existed before the Macintosh...

Not copyright, *trademark*. Trademark law is rather different. But as
an example, while "chevrons" have been a heraldric charge for
centuries, anyone trying to use them as a logo for an oil or gasoline
related company will get slapped down *hard* by the lawyers for ???
(the branch of Standard Oil better known as Chevron).

Please note that Apple *computer* got into trouble with Apple *records*
a few years back. Apple Records originally allowed Apple Computer to
use "Apple" with the stipulation that they stayed away from music. Once
Apple added sound capability to their computers, they got sued for
violating the agreement.

The reason that you are more likely to get sued is that unlike
copyright, you can *lose* a trademark by not defending it against
mis-use. That happened to "Aspirin", and the "Kleenex". It hasn't
*quite* happened to Xerox, but it's pretty close.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:53:57 -0700
Subject: Re: Missing RC Ships

Chris Lloyd wrote:

> Wasn't there some discussion a while ago as to how the Regency knew
> about the RC early enough to make the quotes in the main rulebook?  I
> think we have a viable suggestion.

Must have missed that.  I beleive though that all the Regency Quotes that 
mention the RC are post NE 44.  I know from Vampire Fleets that the RC 
and REG meet in about NE 4? 6?.  It's not a pleasent meeting as the REG 
accuses the RC of having made a pact with the devil etc. etc. etc.  I'm 
pretty sure there's a pretty solid ground for conflict there.  Who know's 
what's happened after that.  Wouldn't surprise me if the two governments 
fought a number of skirmishes and never really united.
 
> Personally I like the idea of a Hiver plot, after all would they
> really trust their pet humans with anything really dangerous?  Then
> again I've never trusted "benevolent" aliens trying to manipulate us,
> but that's back to Babylon 5 again.

Actually if you think about it it's really in the Hiver's best interests 
to support the RC.  Better the devil you know at your door than the devil 
you don't.

DS

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 06:20:54 PST
Subject: crossposting

The current level of crossposting is *way* out of line. Worse, it seems
that the longer the message the more likely it is to get cross-posted.
Not only does this eat up disk space, it also eats up my time when
reading. 

We either need to combine the lists, or start *severely* restricting
topics on the lists.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 06:24:55 PST
Subject: Re: Legal Systems

"Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> writes:

> > Scottish law has a nice verdict: "not proven", giving a judge/jury a third
> > option between "guilty" and "not guilty".
> 
> I wonder if this would be somewhat akin to "no contest", a 3rd plea 
> in some states for certain crimes...

Maybe. But as I understand it, the general circumstances surrounding a
"not proven" verdict tend towards "We know you did it, we just can't
*prove* it. And don't try it again!"


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 06:37:50 PST
Subject: Re: Imperial Heraldry

sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin) writes:

> The xboat branch's symbol was developed early in the canon:
> "The xboat service emblem (above) was taken from a history of Terra by
> Professor Dinimbue of the University of Sylea.  The professor found records
> of an organization called the Pony Express, but her knowledge of old anglic
> was not complete enough to equate the word pony with the Terran horse.  The
> professor translated the word as ponii, a beast of burden used on several
> worlds of the Sylean Federation.  When the xboat service was organized, the
> emblem was designed, even though by then the professor's mistake had been
> discovered."
> Loren Wiseman & Marc Miller, The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service, 6 JTAS
> 11, 12 (logo is also on page 12).

I want *uniform* details. I'm a bit "hefty" and I figure that X-boat
pilots don't get a lot of excercise, so.... :-)

> >2. The Imperal Senate : Imperial Gold Sunburst with a sword and fascii 
> 
> This is good history question.  We know that by 1116, the Imperial
> government consists of the Emperor, the Moot, and the Bureaucracy.  The
> Emperor is the emporer -- apparently a benevolent autocrat.  The Moot
> consists of all of the Imperial nobility.  The Bureaucracy is not a
> constitutionally recognized branch of the government, but has enormous power
> and actually runs the Imperium, implementing Imperial edicts and
> promulgating regulations as needed to do so.
> 
> So, was there ever an Imperial Senate?  What happened to it?

The Moot may well *be* the Senate. Remember, the Roman Senate bore a
lot better resemblance to the Moot than to the US Senate!


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:59:06 -0700
Subject: Re: Naked without guns

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> Strangely, my players don't seem to carry guns much.  Threats, innuendo,
> bighting sarcasm, and whatever they can build out of duct tape, superglue,
> and the TL15 Swiss Army Knife, yes, but not guns.
> 
> Villianous Thug: (Pulling gun) You'll buy from the Boss' store at his prices,
> or else!
> 
> Albert: (Pulling notebook) Does the phrase "Income Tax Audit" suggest a
> potential modification in your envisioned customer relations procedures?
> 
> Ian really enjoyed playing Albert the Commando Accountant ("Have spreadsheet,
> will travel").

Run away! Run away!  Its the Imperial IRS agent!  Run away!

8)

DS

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 08:05:27 PST
Subject: Re: Explosive decompression...not

"Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU> writes:

> > >	A ship that rapidly, even explosively vents it's air isn't going to 
> > >have ripped panels or any suchlike. It's ONLY a 14 psi difference 
> > >here! Loose paper's gonna blow around a lot, and whatever caused the 
> > >decompression coould easily rip panels around and stuff, but hell, a 
> > >balloon will hold up against a 14 psi difference easily. 

Not bloody likely! A typical ballon has something like a *one* psi
pressure difference between the inside and the outside. Usually a lot
less than that.

> > Is that all the difference is, 14 psi?  Didn't know that.
> 
> Unless you're running your ship at > 1 Atmosphere of pressure, yes, 
> the air pressure insuide the ship is ~ 14 psi. 

Sorry, but 14 psi is nothing to sneer at. At 14 psi, a one sq yd
section of wall will have 9 *tons* of pressure on it. 

For what it's worth, the "blast overpressure" that knocks down
buildings and the like is frequently on the order of *2* psi!

What saves you onboard ship is that the regular doors (those not meant
to contain pressure) will rip off their hinges. Figure it out. They
average a couple of sq yds. That's about 18 tons. How well do you
expect the typical door to hold up if you place it and its frame
horizontally and then place 18 tons (distributed evenly) on the door?

Another way to help visualize this is that 1 atm is equivalent to 30
feet (10 meters) of water. So picture the wall or other structure laid
out horizontally, with 30 feet of water on top, and only air at normal
pressure underneath it. 

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 08:16:21 PST
Subject: Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)

Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu> writes:

> Increase Income -- Let's face it:  If nobody can make money only charging 
> Cr1000 per DISPLACEMENT ton to haul freight, is that rate going to 
> stand?  No!  3.27 light years is a heck of a long way to haul fourteen 
> cubic meters of anything.  Not being in the cartage business myself, I 
> have no contemporary comparisons for how much it costs to haul an 
> equivalent volume across a country, or a continent, or an ocean, but 
> whoever is charging only Cr1000 to haul 14 m^3 of pocket baby diaper 
> steamers an entire parsec is getting gypped.

Consider that a standard cargo container these days is roughly 2.5m
square on the end and about 8-10 meters long (I don't have exact
figures). That's about 4 displacement tons. The trailers on
tractor/trailer rigs are about the same size.

So we need to check with local trucking concerns and with shipping
firms. 

> Let's face it:  Fourteen cubic meters is actually a LOT of 
> STUFF.  With a little shoving, I could probably get three of my cars into 
> that volume.

I seriously doubt it. A typical car is a good 6 meters long and 2
meters wide. Going for even *one* meter thick (convertible?) that gets
you 12 cubic meters right there.

14 cubic meters is about an 8 foot cube.

> While I'm Ranting:  The trade and commerce rules, as presented in MT and 
> TNE, needed work.  There are some things (like official documents and 
> currency) that, if handled in one-ton lots, wouldn't be handled by 
> ordinary civilians.

You might be surprised. Regular cargo carriers routinely handle
"official documents" (like all the records when they move the IRS
office into a different state). And countries that don't print their
own currency (there are a lot of those) get it shipped in from the
printer (the US has several companies that print banknotes). 

> Also, those rules presume that some goods won't be 
> more valueable than others.  Example:  Since when do weapons have the 
> same base price per ton as does mineral ore, or flavored water?  I can 
> see where the trade and commerce rules were 'dumbed up' for the sake of 
> simplicity, but they also made it harder to turn a profit, even when 
> suffering wild success in the cargo speculation business.

I dunno about "flavored water". Let's assume 2 liter bottles of soda. A
quick check gives me 9 bottles in a 40 cm cube, or about 200 per DT. So
that gives me a value of $1000 per DT.

As for weapons, I know what sort of shipping case SKS rifles and AK-47s
come in (a friend used to be a dealer). A 2x1x1 meter box holds a dozen
rifles. So 7 such boxes in a DT, for 84 rifles per DT. So we get about
$4000 per DT. 

Mineral ore, I can't say.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 03:46:22 PST
Subject: Re: Symbols of the New Imperium

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> >> Here's an interesting one. For the ISS (or ISIS, or whatever) "Imperial
> >> Secret Service" - a pyramid with the eye in it. <g> 
> >
> >OH, GREAT...
> >Just What IG didn't need to start the ball off right...
> >A lawsuit from Steve Jackson Games... (Illuminati)
> >To go with the 1 TSR gave to GDW...
> 
> I don't know as Jackson could sue you over the use of a acronim if the
> original word are different.  And if you did found and Illuminati society he
> couldn't sue you anyways because there really was and Illuminati back in the
> 20's.  New York I beleive.

Trouble is, using "a pyramid with the eye in it" for *any* GAMING
purpose will violate SJG's trademarks. 

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:11:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Trade and Commerce Rules

Hi.  I like the idea of individual tables for individual worlds, but 
there should also be some "generic" tables in case you don't have time to 
make tables for every planet the characters visit.  Maybe one table for 
Industrial worlds, one for Ag worlds, etc. ?

Charles.

------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:31:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Pushing rocks/boulders/megapebbles

Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> wrote:

> Clear as mud!!  (How did I ever even pass high school physics?)

To me, one of the cooler things about a hard-SF game like Traveller (or at
least like Trav *can* be) is that you can actually learn some real-world
science as you go.  Sort of sneaks education in the back door. :)

> I never have been able to comprehend the concepts of relativity.  I'm
> assuming that 1. All  these formulae are correct, and 2. You Physics whizzes
> have determined that this is possible.  I mean to my feeble brain, it seems
> impossible that a tiny 1-6G starship could possible move an asteroid of any
> decent size fast enough that it would really cause damage.  Really, I find
> it difficult that a ship could move an asteroid period.

I'll tell you why you think that.  Every really big object you've ever 
tried to move by rolling or sliding has been in contact with the ground; 
a small push results in zero motion.  If I'm pushing my broken car along 
the side of the rode, and try doing it by tapping the rear bumper with my 
index finger, *no* motion happens; there's not enough force to overcome 
static friction.

The key insight here is that, if my car were in orbit beside me, and I 
tapped the bumper with my index finger, it *would* acquire a small 
velocity, and begin moving away from me, very slowly, but never slowing 
down because there's no friction.  Of course, I would slide off int the 
opposite direction a bit more quickly (though still at very low speed), 
because my mass is much less than that of the car.

Humans just aren't built to handle this stuff intuitively.  Our view of 
practical physics is dominated by static and sliding friction, strong 
local gravity, and hard surfaces preventing us from free-falling very 
far.  Our monkey brains are really good at gauging force vectors required 
to swing from limb to limb of a tree, in 1g, with air resistance; they're 
not so great at figuring out how to get from Earth to Mars on a 
minimum-energy trajectory.  That's why you so often get that startled 
this-can't-be-right feeling when you start learning space physics...a lot 
of it is counterintuitive until you learn new kinds of intuition.

Somebody wrote an SF story in which an orbital construction worker was
killed when he found himself between two large girders, slowly approaching
one another.  He absent-mindedly stuck out his hands to either side to
hold them apart...and they inexorably slid together, crushing him.  It'll
be a hard road as we move to the stars, learning over and over the lessons
that mass isn't weight, and friction isn't common. 

The trick to rock-pushing is that you can push as gently as you like, 
your total push over time keeps adding up, and you never lose velocity 
due to friction.  You can easily nudge a rock from the asteroid belt to 
Earth at 0.001g -- given a few years to do the job.  Higher accelerations 
just let you work faster.

> OK, I get it.  This would be more akin to moving something in water, only
> without the water creating a sort-of friction/drag element.  The car example
> is bad cause of the friction on the road as well as the problems of gravity.
> (does gravity create a problem?)  I think I'm getting clearer.

Gravity creates a problem in that it holds surfaces in contact, enabling 
friction, and prevents free-fall dynamics, which are easier to calculate.

> Another question, someone mentioned that a rock moving near the speed of
> light (I think that was the speed to which they referred) would make it to
> the surface of a planet regardless of size.  (I think that's what they said)
> How is this possible?

To a first approximation, it's simply that it doesn't have time to burn
up.  The speed of light is 300,000 km/s; let's say our rock is moving at
the now-canonical speed of 0.1c, or 30,000 km/s.  To a first
approximation, Earth's atmosphere is 100 km thick (and that's being rather
generous).  So, our rock will be in the atmosphere for 100 km / 30,000
km/s or about 3 milliseconds before hitting the surface.  There's not
enough time to do more than singe the outer layers of the rock. 

- -------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest            Friday, 21 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 135

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Starship Economics
         2. RE: American Copyright Law 
         3. Re: Starship Economics
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #133
         5. Some Traveller fun...
         6. A single list to bind them all...
         7. One list to Bind them all...
         8. ALL| Trin's Veil as A Defence Against Boulders.
         9. All| Reunification & Subjects
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #133
        11. Enhanced Trading Rules (long) Pt 1

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:38:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Starship Economics

Stu said:
>I'm sorry but the old Cr 1000 standard just sounds too arbitrary to me...
>
>Envision this scenario...
>
>Mr. Smith on the mainworld of system Backwater, with an E starport,
>hasn't seen a ship arrive on the cleared landing pad he has set up
>for the purpose in 6 weeks...
>
>He has a few tons of cargo (say the cargo is several tons of a
>critical component of a vaccine for a plague on the high population
>world some 4 parsecs over), and the freight is very time sensitive...
>(people are dying after all).  A pharmaceutical company there will
>probably buy the component from Mr. Smith to manufacture the vaccine
>at a huge margin, making Mr. Smith a wealthy man, but only if he gets
>it there quickly...
>
>Suddenly, in jumps Hal with his tramp free trader.  He comes into
>system about every 3 months to deliver mail.  Mr. Smith probably
>won't see another ship for 2 or 3 weeks minimum.  Hal finds out how critical
>it is to get this cargo to market for Mr. Smith, knows that Mr. Smith
>may not see another ship until Hal comes back in about 12 weeks, and
>knows how much of a bind Mr. Smith is in, and... GLADLY AGREES TO
>SHIP THE CARGO FOR THE STANDARD RATE OF Cr1000 per ton.

        I think the scenario you have scetched above is _exactly_ why the 
Imperium has chosen to standardize freight rates across the Empire.  If 
they did not, all those little backwater worlds would be at the mercy of 
traders and shipping companies who could gouge them at will, particularly 
when lives are at stake, as in your example.

>Get real.  It's not a matter of whether Cr1000 makes a ship
>affordable or not.  It's a matter of totally ignoring how capitalism
>works.  The facts are that Hal is probably going to rape Mr. Smith....
<snip>
	But the Empire takes a dim view of rape and has therefore made 
charging more than the standard rate illegal.	

<snip>
>The trade and commerce rules do need an overhaul...If not in the basic
>rules, perhaps in a JTAS article, or a future supplement...
>The book 2 speculative system is better, but needs more cargoes, and
>the numbers need to be tweaked.  At a minimum freight transshipping
>should include factors for all of the below:
>
>Class of the shipping Starport
>Class of the receiving Starport
>Need for quick delivery
>Negotiating skills of the shipper and owner of the goods
>Amber Zone or Red Zone bonuses
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>Stu

	I agree that the fixed Imperial freight rate should be dependent 
on the factors you mention.  1000Cr should probably be the rate between 
two Class A starports.  For TNE I ran a lot of numbers for a merchant 
campaign I am working on with some other folks on the list, and found 
that with a big, integrated shipping system you could actually make 
money on 1000Cr/Td.  But such a system only works between hi-pop worlds 
with a lot of regular trade.  The Empire also knew this and knew that 
the outer reaches of the empire (which most needed trade to bring them 
into the Imperial fold) could not support such a system and that Free 
Traders could not make any money at the 1000Cr/Td rate.  That is 
why subsidized merchants were invented.  Since they only have to give 
half their gross to the Empire, rather than pay a mortgage, they can 
actually do quite well at 1000Cr/Td.  
	For the kind of trading at E class starports and whatnot that Free 
Traders do, 1000Cr/Td just is not going to cut it.  What I think should 
happen is that the rate should be modified by the factors you mention, 
shipping and receiving starport, delivery time, Zones.  But since the 
empire has chartered subsidized merchants to encourage trade I think 
they should have to charge the flat 1000Cr/Td anywhere on their 
assigned route.  This reduces the disincentive to private shippers 
created by subsidized merchants but also encourages them to move off 
the beaten path, which is, after all, where Free Traders belong.
	Oh yeah, negotiating skill might only come in for the planet-dweller 
to _lower_ the price from the official rate.  If a subsidized merchant 
was scheduled to come into the system soon, then he might convince the 
Free Trader that he was willing to wait to get the subsidized rate.  

- --Muir

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:55:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: American Copyright Law 

In Reply to Your Message of Fri, 21 Jun 1996 05: 48:17 PST
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:55:14 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: The reason that you are more likely to get sued is that unlike
: copyright, you can *lose* a trademark by not defending it against
: mis-use. That happened to "Aspirin", and the "Kleenex". It hasn't
: *quite* happened to Xerox, but it's pretty close.

This is the same reason that Johnson and Johnson sued the record
company that put out "Do They Know It's Christmas" by Band-Aid.

I recall that the J&J representative said that they didn't want to
squelch a humanitarian effort like the album, but they had no choice
but to defend their trademark.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:14:18 -0800
Subject: Re: Starship Economics

On 21 Jun 96 at 13:38, John Macpherson spewed:

> Stu said:
> >I'm sorry but the old Cr 1000 standard just sounds too arbitrary to me...
> >
> >Suddenly, in jumps Hal with his tramp free trader.  He comes into
> >system about every 3 months to deliver mail.  Mr. Smith probably
> >won't see another ship for 2 or 3 weeks minimum.  Hal finds out how critical
> >it is to get this cargo to market for Mr. Smith, knows that Mr. Smith
> >may not see another ship until Hal comes back in about 12 weeks, and
> >knows how much of a bind Mr. Smith is in, and... GLADLY AGREES TO
> >SHIP THE CARGO FOR THE STANDARD RATE OF Cr1000 per ton.
> 
>         I think the scenario you have scetched above is _exactly_ why the 
> Imperium has chosen to standardize freight rates across the Empire.  If 
> they did not, all those little backwater worlds would be at the mercy of 
> traders and shipping companies who could gouge them at will, particularly 
> when lives are at stake, as in your example.

Yes, but how realistic is this...  I mean the Imperium lets 
dictatorships exist with impunity.  Heck, they'll even let 1 system 
invade another, as long as they don't use nukes to do so.  What makes 
you think that your average subsector duke is going to give a rip 
because a trader decides to triple the cargo rate from an E-class 
starport to an A class starport...

And even if the Imperium can regulate rates, they can't control the 
market.  If I'm a trader, under the current rules, I have NO 
incentive to jump into an E class port.  Because they generally are 
going to have less goods to ship, I'm usually going to wind up 
leaving with a half empty hold, and I'm not going to be able to make 
extra cash to compensate for that.  

The Imperium is so high and mighty about keeping the shipping rates 
at Cr1000/ton, but they don't give a rip if I bought say a cargo hold 
full of electronic equipment at a cheap price, from a high tech 
industrial world where computers are included in boxes of cereal, and 
take it to that same backwater world, and jack the price up 400%.  

> 
> >Get real.  It's not a matter of whether Cr1000 makes a ship
> >affordable or not.  It's a matter of totally ignoring how capitalism
> >works.  The facts are that Hal is probably going to rape Mr. Smith....
> <snip>
> 	But the Empire takes a dim view of rape and has therefore made 
> charging more than the standard rate illegal.	
> 

No...under the existing rules, it takes a dim view of rape, UNLESS 
you are speculating with the cargo...

> >Class of the shipping Starport
> >Class of the receiving Starport
> >Need for quick delivery
> >Negotiating skills of the shipper and owner of the goods
> >Amber Zone or Red Zone bonuses
> 	I agree that the fixed Imperial freight rate should be dependent 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there should not be a FIXED 
Imperial freight rate.  Maybe a maximum and a minimum, varied by a 
great number of factors and a little bit of random chance.  Cr 1000 
would work as a minimum, but not as a maximum...

> on the factors you mention.  1000Cr should probably be the rate between 
> two Class A starports.  For TNE I ran a lot of numbers for a merchant 
> campaign I am working on with some other folks on the list, and found 
> that with a big, integrated shipping system you could actually make 
> money on 1000Cr/Td.  But such a system only works between hi-pop worlds 
> with a lot of regular trade.  The Empire also knew this and knew that 
> the outer reaches of the empire (which most needed trade to bring them 
> into the Imperial fold) could not support such a system and that Free 
> Traders could not make any money at the 1000Cr/Td rate.  That is 
> why subsidized merchants were invented.  Since they only have to give 
> half their gross to the Empire, rather than pay a mortgage, they can 
> actually do quite well at 1000Cr/Td.  

You're going against the face of logic to some extent with this 
argument...  Trade between high pop, high value worlds, aren't going 
to be serviced by free traders or subsidized merchants.  They're 
going to be served by the bulk carriers, the megacorps...

Free traders and subsidized merchants are going to exist at the 
fringes.  Yes subsidized ships should have the edge in the backwaters 
(they are after all being subsidized to serve the backwaters), but 
free traders should be able to make money too.  Otherwise, there is 
no reason for free traders to exist...  A fixed, 1 size fits all in 
every circumstance shipping rate just doesn't work in a capitalist 
system, which is what we are led to believe the Imperium is...  It 
doesn't exist on Earth, with instantaneous communication, and next 
day shipping, and it has even less of a chance of existing in a 
far-flung, star spanning empire with no FTL communications, and next 
week shipping if you're really, really, lucky...good intentions of an 
Empire in regulating commerce or not...

> 	For the kind of trading at E class starports and whatnot that Free 
> Traders do, 1000Cr/Td just is not going to cut it.  What I think should 
> happen is that the rate should be modified by the factors you mention, 
> shipping and receiving starport, delivery time, Zones.  But since the 
> empire has chartered subsidized merchants to encourage trade I think 
> they should have to charge the flat 1000Cr/Td anywhere on their 
> assigned route.  This reduces the disincentive to private shippers 
> created by subsidized merchants but also encourages them to move off 
> the beaten path, which is, after all, where Free Traders belong.

This part, at least I agree with.  1 point though, C, D & E class starports 
AREN'T on the beaten path...

> 	Oh yeah, negotiating skill might only come in for the planet-dweller 
> to _lower_ the price from the official rate.  If a subsidized merchant 

Not going to be the case when time pressures come into it, and not 
for backwater D&E ports, where ship arrivals are still a relatively 
infrequent thing...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 15:19:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #133

>From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
>Subject: RE: Calling All Engineers!

...quoted material snipped...
 
>Gah!  Y'all are still overlooking something important: a starship is NOT 
>an airplane!

Not all of us are overlooking this fact.

>  A better analogue is a SHIP.  An even better one is a 
>SUBMARINE.  Airplanes do not leave the ground and fly around for 2 or 
>more weeks before returning; ships leave port for cruises like that all 
>the time.  Ships and airplanes stay in radio contact with home base, and 
>don't have to worry about life support beyond food and water for weeks 
>at a time; submarines go out of contact with the rest of the universe 
>for weeks or months, and have to carry internal life support or extract 
>it from the surrounding hostile environment. 

I've been arguing this for a while.  A while back we had a discussion going
about starship construction times, and some of the folks on the list kept
wanting to compare the construct times of starships with 747's.  Sorry, not
a good comparison.  Cynthis is right, ships and subs make for a better
example, the only problem with subs is when have you seen a civillian
submarine? ;)

 
>Guess what?  Both ships and submarines carry full-time engineers, whose 
>job is that and nothing but that.  A lot of them carry many more than 
>one. 

Being in the marine construction industry, I can say that this is true.
However, the groups that we deal with are companies large enough to purchase
multiple ships.  Rarely do we build a first ship for someone.  I would
immagine that a smaller company with a smaller ship would readily crosstrain
people.  When you think of the number of people it takes to run a ship, it
doesn't seem like a small fledgling company (or individual) trying to make a
living (much less a profit) out of shipping cargo is not likely to have a
full crew complement.

On the other hand, this one ship is the whole world for this little company
(or individual).  I would not be surprised to see a skilled and
knowledgeable(sp) engineer on the ship because the very life of the owner
depends on the maintenance of the ship.  A single engineer is not a problem
or issue.  I think any jump capeable ship will have at least (minimal) a
crew of three: Pilot, Astrogator(navigator), and Engineer.  Add passengers
and you'l need a Steward.  In system craft under 200 tons could probably get
by with a crew of two: Pilot and Engineer.


>I suspect that the rules for calculating civilian ship crews and the 
>rule for calculating the size of a "skeleton" crew (minimum to get the 
>ship underway) for a military ship should look almost identical.  A 
>civilian ship *has* a skeleton crew + cargo-handlers/pursers + 
>passenger-service crew. 


I'm not sure there's been much arguement about military ships, everyone
tends to agree that they will be fully manned, I think the disagreement is
over civvies!!


------------------------------

From: "David E. Brooks Jr" <dbj@mpgn.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 16:32:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Some Traveller fun...

Just for kicks, I ran a handful of Traveller (or Traveller-esque)
phrases through the anagram server available at
http://www.wordsmith.org/awad-cgibin/anagram 

If you happen to be unaware of what an anagram is, it is simply the
rearrangement of the letters in a word or phrase to form a different
word or phrase.  Good anagrams give an insight to the original word or
phrase.  For example, an anagram of 'Clint Eastwood' is 'Old West
Action.'

Below are some of the phrases I've run through the previously
mentioned anagram server (Some phrases, like 'Zhodani Exodus' don't
seem to have any good anagrams).  My personal favorites are the
anagrams for 'Hiver Academy' and 'Spinward Marches.'

Enjoy!

- -- Dave

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Traveller Anagrams:

	Fourth Traveller = 	After revolt hurl
			   	All truth forever
			   	All revert fourth

	Free Trader Beowulf =	A few flee terror, bud

	The Regency =		Tech Energy

	Hiver Academy =		Advice harm ye
		   
	Emperor Strephon =	Me throne prosper
				Other men prosper

	Free Trader =		Draftee err

	Spinward Marches =	Marc had press win
				Marc, send war ship

	Emperor Cleon I =	Con Empire role

	The Imperium =		I'm the umpire

	Smash and Grab =	Brash mad snag

	The Black Curtain =	Nuclear batch kit


And finally, the one we all hope is true:

	Imperium Games =	Is premium game


- --
David E. Brooks Jr / dbj@MPGN.COM | GCS/O d? H+(-) s:+ g+ a w++(--) v
Tantalus Incorporated             | C++ UU++++$ UO P+>+++ L+ E N+ W+>+++
Key West, FL                      | M- V- po Y+ t+(++) !5 !j R+(++)>+++ G'
+1 305 293 8100 x15               | tv- b+>++ D B- e u+ h--- f+ r+++ n y?


------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 16:37:09 -0500
Subject: A single list to bind them all...

>Maybe, if you want to unify the lists, we can let people on the Traveller
>list talk about CT/MT too, not just TNE and MMT. If that were to happen,
>perhaps the Xboat list would phase itself out.

  I haven't noticed any lack of CT/MT talk on the TML.  The Traveller list
covers all Traveller, CT to T4.



  
Mark Urbin eclipse@ultranet.com  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy 
spot on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
Opinions are MINE!  All Mine!  Bwwwaaaahhhh! 


------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 16:41:26 -0500
Subject: One list to Bind them all...

Rob writes:
>The solution:  All T4 traffic on Traveller only, and no cross posts.

I agree.  T4 fits the TML charter, not the Xboat charter.  As a general
rule, I only post to xboat when responding to a thread that was only
on xboat.  All other Traveller posts, CT to T4, go to the TML.

Mark Urbin eclipse@ultranet.com  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy 
spot on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
Opinions are MINE!  All Mine!  Bwwwaaaahhhh! 


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 15:35:39 -0600
Subject: ALL| Trin's Veil as A Defence Against Boulders.

On 06/20/96 at 10:35 PM,  Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com> said:

>A) You'd end up with a whole bunch of little rocks, just about as 
>destructive.

I've wondered when someone was going to comment on this.  Yes, busting
the big rock would make small rock, but how destructive they would be
depends on just how small the small rocks were. How many tons of rock
falls on Earth every year...causing minor to no damage?  

So, if you want to break up the big rock make sure you also break up
the medium size chucks, and the small hunks...pebbles the atomosphere
can deal with.

Of course, the original idea had 1 g/m^3, spread over some thousands
of km, right?  So the boulder and it's resulting chunks would collide
with *hundred* (if not thousands) of these grains of sand....

>B) You'd create your own navigational hazard with all that stuff
>floating  around your world.

There would have to be lanes, channels to travel through going out and
in.  This is analogious to many harbors..I recall from my history that
ports often defended themselves from opposing fleets using sand bars
to make it difficult to sail in, requiring a harbor pilot.  In this
situation, a fleet wouldn't "run aground", but it might require them
to slow down, making it much easier for the planet based guns to pound
them.

Frankly, this is very interesting idea on several levels.  I don't
know how realistic it is, but it bears consideration.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 15:21:19 -0600
Subject: All| Reunification & Subjects

On 06/20/96 at 10:29 PM,  Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> said:

>If we could somehow make everyone post their messages with CT,
>MT, TNE, T4, ALL before the subject, I think it might be able to
>work, but we can't even get everyone to stop posting with "Re:
>Traveller digest #652" (or whatever) in the subject line.

Too true! <g>

I'd be willing to start doing that, but I can just see folks doing: 

  T4#CT&MT!TNE:My cool idea!   ;->
  
Seriously, I do wish folks would be more careful with their subjects,
Traveller digest #989 doesn't convey much
information..usually. And I do like the idea of the prefixes.

Eris  
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 21:41:54 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #133

=> Cynthis is right, ships and subs make for a better
=> example, the only problem with subs is when have you seen a civillian
=> submarine? ;)

I believe that, with enough coin, the Russians may be willing to part with one
or two... 8-)  Greenpeace wanted to buy an old diesel boat from the USSR a few
years back so that they could simply submerge when the local authorities showed
up.  They just needed someone that could read Russian.

Someone else (I'm sorry but I can't remember who) also mentioned the comparisons
between starships and automobiles, stating that the commonality of starships in
the Traveller universe is on par (?) with auto ownership today.  These ships
cost in excess of MCr30+ (or the equivilent of 6,304+ TNE Ground Cars) at the
very least and the only people that seem to have one are legitimate businesses
and the wealthy.  I think a better comparison could be made along the lines of
the commercial fisherman or helicopter tour operator in regards to cost,
function, etc.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 21 Jun 1996 18:11:52 GMT
Subject: Enhanced Trading Rules (long) Pt 1

Here is an ASCII version of part of my house trading rules.  I'll send more
information as I retype it (%$& disk error - thank Strephon for hardcopy). 
I'm using Word 4.0, and can upload a copy to an ftp site (and maybe someone
can convert to HTML?).

- ----------

Interstellar trading has been part of Traveller since the beginning. The
original system described in Book 2 of Classic Traveller provided for
specific trade goods with individually varying values. The later Book 7
(Merchant Prince) system changed this to generic goods differentiated only on
their sourceworld. 

Being Nicholas van Rijn fans, my group preferred the original system. Using
an idea from FASA's Merchant Class Ships, we created a trade system based on
unique trade tables for every world. These tables allow individual economies
to appear, without slowing down the game session. (All the world of creating
a table is done between sessions, just as with animal encounter tables.) 

Enhanced Trading

The successful trader buys low and sells high. Anything else leads to
bankruptcy. 

That said, the purpose of trading in Traveller is to have fun. Trading should
never be a mechanical process of rolling dice and calculating financial
statements. If trading is not a core element in the current adventure, then
use the basic trade rules (ie. Merchant Prince/MegaTraveller). These enhanced
rules are intended to add greater flavour, variety, and most importantly
chances for adventure. 

Trading Process

The mechanics of trading are handled by tasks. However, the referee should
strive to integrate these into the adventure, rather than making them simple
die-roll hurdles to be overcome. 

Task Difficulty

The ease with which goods can be moved is governed by the size of the
economy. To reflect this, many tasks have a difficulty of '<population>',
which means that the task difficulty is based on the population code as
follows:
     Lo     Difficult
     Mod     Routine
     Hi     Simple

Any of the following steps can be turned into an adventure: 

1.     Find a possible cargo
2.     Negotiate a price
3.     Load the cargo
4.     Jump to another system
5.     Find a potential buyer
6.     Negotiate a price
7.     Unload the cargo
8.     Collect payment

Finding a cargo

The first step is to find a decent cargo. This system assumed that there are
many possible cargos, but the players are looking for something with
extraordinary profit potential. As well, regular shipments of standard items
will, in settled space, probably be carried by a regular freighter with a
contract (ie. a subsidized liner). Thus, what the players are picking up are
the fortuitous crumbs of trade that slip between the megacorporations'
fingers. 

To find a potential cargo:
<population>.  Trading, Streetwise. 3 hours.
Referee:  Several characters can pool their efforts. Use the highest skill in
each catagory for the success roll, but total all skills for the time roll.
(The extra help means several leads can be followed up simultaneously.) 

Notice that finding a cargo will, on average, occupy a single individual for
most of a week. If a cargo is not found, or if the players do not like the
one they do find, another attempt can be made with the usual penalties for
retrying. 

If the players find a cargo, choose one from the world's trade table. 

Negotiating a price

Once a cargo is found, then a price must be negotiated. While this will, in
many cases, be the lowest one possible, circumstances might warrant paying a
bit more. Possibly the players feel sorry for a real hard-luck case. Possibly
they want to cement an ongoing business arrangement. Possibly they learn that
the seller has a cousin in the starport engineering department...

Canny players will want to investigate the goods (and the seller) before
making a deal. Possibly the goods are defective, or stolen. Possibly ...

To investigate the goods:
Routine. Admin/Legal, appropriate skill. 15 minutes. (uncertain)
Referee:  An appropriate skill is one that relates to the goods being bought.
Gravitics for grav modules, Prospecting for ores, and so on. 

Rather than a task, a simple die roll is used to set a price. Roll two dice,
modified by all appropriate factors, on the actual value table and multiply
the base cost by the indicated amount. The Bargaining skill of the players'
negotiator is a negative modifier (tends to lower cost); the Bargaining skill
of the seller' negotiator is a positive modifier (tends to increase cost). 

Loading the cargo

This is relatively straightforward, unless the cargo has special requirements
or is illegal. In each case the referee must adjudicate the requirements.
Don't be afraid to use a bit of humour; after all, players who have bought
2000 live rabbits without the cages deserve everything coming to them! 

One enhancement I use is to make the players pack their cargo hold. To do
this I use deck plans and cardboard templates. After a couple of days spent
loading sacks of grain (by hand - because the low-tech cargo robot kept
tearing the sacks) my players invested in a couple of standard shipping
containers.

Jumping to another system

Covered in other rules (specifically Starship Operators Manual). 

Finding a potential buyer

Posting a notice on the starport computer net will probably find a buyer, but
a better price can be obtained with a little salesmanship. 

To find a potential buyer:
<population>.  Trading, Streetwise. 3 hours.

Referee:  Several characters can pool their efforts. Use the highest skill in
each catagory for the success roll, but total all skills for the time roll.
(The extra help means several leads can be followed up simultaneously.) 

Notice that selling a cargo will, on average, occupy a single individual for
most of a week. If a cargo is not found, or if the players do not like the
one they do find, another attempt can be made with the usual penalties for
retrying. 

Negotiating a price

Once a buyer is found, then a price must be negotiated. While this will, in
many cases, be the highest one possible, circumstances might warrant paying a
bit more. Possibly the players feel sorry for a real hard-luck case. Possibly
they want to cement an ongoing business arrangement. Possibly they learn that
the seller has a cousin in the starport engineering department...

Canny players will want to investigate the seller before making a deal. Do
they always pay on time?

To investigate the buyer:
Routine. Admin/Legal, Streetwise. 15 minutes. (uncertain)

Rather than a task, a simple die roll is used to set a price. Roll two dice,
modified by all appropriate factors, on the actual value table and multiply
the base price by the indicated amount. The Bargaining skill of the players'
negotiator is a positive modifier (tends to increase price); the Bargaining
skill of the seller' negotiator is a negative modifier (tends to decrease
price). 

Unloading the cargo

As with loading, this is relatively straightforward, unless the cargo has
special requirements or is illegal. In each case the referee must adjudicate
the requirements. Illegal cargos should certainly be role-played! 

Collecting the payment

Again, this should be relatively straightforward. However, don't neglect the
fun of individual planetary currencies. Difranian marks are probably not
legal tender off-planet, so the players may be forced into buying another
speculative cargo...

Example Trading Session

The players' starship is grounded at Genese on Echiste, a water-world in
Lanth/Spinward Marches. While the engineer overhauls the jump drive, the
pursor heads into town to look for a profitable cargo. 

Echiste is a low population world, making this a Difficult task (11+). The
pursor has Trading-3 and Streetwise-3. The referee rolls a 5 for success;
only her high skills let the pursor find cargo here. The time roll is 16
(less 6 for skills) for a total of 30 hours. The pursor is in a hurry,
working 10-hour days, so it will be three days before she finds a cargo. 

Rather than simply rolling the dice and annoncing the result, the referee
describes the startown district and general flavour of Genese , giving a
brief but vivid description of how weary the pursor is trotting after leads,
visiting grungy warehouses, and so forth. The referee rolls for encounters,
and on the third day gets a street gang. Sensing an opportunity for
adventure, he improvises. 

"On your way back from talking to M. LeFarge, one of seedier local sashimi
brokers, you see a scruffy man, mid-forties, ringed by leather-clad young
punks. 'Donnez moi, gramps,' snarls the leader as he swings a chain."

The pursor is feeling heroic. "I pull out my deck-sweeper, fire a round into
the ground, then cover the gang. 'Another day, boys,' I smile. 'You're up
past your bedtime.' I jerk the muzzle down the passage."

The referee quickly rolls a morale check for the gang. They fail. "They glare
at you, but back away. 'Another day, midons,' growls the leader, 'another
day.' They rumble down the passage, making out like they were leaving anyway.

"Their victim breathes a sigh of relief. 'Merci beaucoup, madamoiselle, je
pense que j'ai morte.' He notices your shipsuit. 'Ah, vous etes une voyageur!
Please to excuse my manners. I am Jean-Guy Morseau, a simple coureur des
fonds waylaid while peddling my poisson-fue. I have much for to thank you;
this trip I capture deux - 'ow you say, two? But of course, I must buy you a
drink. Come, my cousine has a little bistro...' He leads you off..."

The contact is made. Poisson-fue is a delicacy, live animals bringing a
premium price on Regina. And who better to teach the players how to keep one
alive than Jean-Guy? 

*Note: Poisson-fue is detailed in a 20-page writeup on Echiste I did before
my players visited it. (I had more time in those days.) 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #135
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 21 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 136

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #133
         2. Hivers and RC Missing Ships
         3. Pop and Popguns!
         4. Re: House Trade Rules
         5. Hey.....
         6. TNE differences
         7. Corps in space
         8. Big Rock vs Little RockS
         9. SCA in Traveller
        10. Re: TNE differences
        11. RE: Corporations in space... (longish)
        12. Re: Big Rock vs Little RockS
        13. Imperial Symbols
        14. The Rise of Solomani Militancy
        15. [T96#124] Imperial Senate

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 15:27:30 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #133

James Lindsay wrote:
> 
>=> Cynthis is right, ships and subs make for a better
>=> example, the only problem with subs is when have you seen a civillian
>=> submarine? ;)
> 
>I believe that, with enough coin, the Russians may be willing to part with one
>or two... 8-)  Greenpeace wanted to buy an old diesel boat from the USSR a few
>years back so that they could simply submerge when the local authorities showed
>up.  They just needed someone that could read Russian.

Some fellow here in Vancouver has just bought a decommissioned Foxtrox 
class sub.  They plan to tow it from Vladivostok to Vancouver, 30 days 
then open it up as a tourist attraction.  I think that was actually Pat 
Watson who wanted to buy the sub.

Sorry.  Just thought I'd let you know.

Ds

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 18:32:08 -0400
Subject: Hivers and RC Missing Ships

Derek wrote:
>Actually if you think about it it's really in the Hiver's best interests 
>to support the RC.  Better the devil you know at your door than the devil 
>you don't.

Well a few weeks ago, I wrote a message about rouge nests of Hivers. (I
was calling them Shadow Nests) Some Hivers feel that humans are too
dangerous, and there are too many of them to succesfully manipulate. 
So they are preforming their own manipulations to destroy the RC.  More
extreme Hivers want to exterminate all the humans.  

Hmmm how about the Hiver observer on the Ashtabula was really an agent
for one of these shadow nests, and he either sabatoged the ship, to
destroy RC morale, or prevent them from finding out about the Shadow
Nests, or maybe they captured the Ashtabula, so they could go around
pretending to be the RC, and ruin its good name, by conducting all
sorts of black ops, assasinations, kidnapping, pilliaging. You know the
normal Smash and Grab operations, but this time against nice people,
instead of evil TEDs. Maybe the crew is now being experimented on by
Hivers. Hmmm I kind of like this idea.
  
Well I'll stop rambling.
Lewis

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 16:20:33 -0600
Subject: Pop and Popguns!

On 06/21/96 at 08:16 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>I dunno about "flavored water". Let's assume 2 liter bottles of soda.
>A quick check gives me 9 bottles in a 40 cm cube, or about 200 per
>DT. So that gives me a value of $1000 per DT.

Gee!  Where do *you* buy your soda?  I never pay more than
$1.50/bottle, usually I can get a 2 liter for under a dollar, but
let's say for some reason you're pop wholesales to you at $1.50, so...

...200*1.5= $300 not $1000!

BTW, 200 per ton eyeballs as much too low let me figure...I took some
measurements and it looks like a 2 liter bottle is about 10x32cm.
Let's say you could get 9x9x3 bottles per M^3 so..

9x9x3x14=3402, let's drop that to 3200 to cover wasted volumn and
shipping materials

3200*1.5 = $4800 not $300 or $1000

At wholesale of $.50/bottle the cost is still $1600.

>As for weapons, I know what sort of shipping case SKS rifles and
>AK-47s come in (a friend used to be a dealer). A 2x1x1 meter box
>holds a dozen rifles. So 7 such boxes in a DT, for 84 rifles per DT.
>So we get about $4000 per DT. 

...and where do you buy your weapons?  <g> 

$4000/84=$47.62 each!  

(Of course this is better than the $12/weapon you'd pay at $1000/dt.)

ACR's wouldn't be that cheap, even at wholesale, would they? I'd guess
$100 each giving $8400/dt.

Now Pop is $1600/dt and Popguns are $8400/dt, still quite a nice
spread.  <g>

Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 16:54:46 -0600
Subject: Re: House Trade Rules

On 06/21/96 at 02:40 PM,  cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness
Eclectic) said:

>>TRADE TABLES 
 
>>Every planet has unique trade tables, just as every planet has unique
>>animal encounter tables.  These look like those in CT Book 2, except 
>>that: 
 
>>a) There is a base cost (for buying) and a base price (for selling). 
>>b) There are no purchase DMs (figured into the base cost already). 
>>c) Referee adds names (just as for animals). 
>>d) Goods also have a 'volatility factor' (see below) 

>This is a stroke of sheer genius!  

I absolutely agree!  This beats what I have done hands down.

>...And we can use those MT/TNE expanded type-of-goods tables to
>fill in the "generic" descriptions...

And this can be built into computerized planet generation to do it
automaticly! <g>

>Someone get Mark Miller's attention on this!  

I think MM and most of the IG crew keep an eye on this list. With
printing schedules, it's probably too late to go into the basic rules
of T4, but I *really* like this idea.

>BTW, what *is* the GDW-beta list for?  

Developing things like this!  For example, thats's where the ship
design systems were thrashed out..if it had been done here the
messages/day would have exceeded 200.  <g>

>Isn't the name a bit out of date?

Yes, but I suspect it'll get a name change when Wildstar gets around
to it.

>Is it still active, and what do you do there? 
 
Same stuff as here, but there seems to be a more technical edge.

>BTW #2, are we still using the traditional format for mapping and 
>displaying subsectors & sectors?  i.e., 2D, 8x10 or 32x40 hexagonal 
>grids?  I'd like to know before I get back into my X sector map 
>programming project... 

We don't know yet...Mark?
 
>Also, what's the general range of software that's been written for 
>Traveller now?  How about text files, HTML stuff, pictures, icons, 
>backgrounds, deck plans, etc?  

It appears several of us are working on various things, but in the
vacumn waiting for T4 to hit the ground are sort of hung up waiting.

>What formats are people using?  Does everyone assume Windows?

NO!  NO!  I don't assume Windows, and I hope some of the neat ideas
floating around aren't going to be tied to just one environment.

>Some of us are running other things... 

I run OS/2, so I can run DOS & Window3.1 stuff too.  I can't run ,or
develop for, Mac or Amiga or TRS80 (that was for Joe <g>). Most
Macintosh or Amiga folks I know can run DOS programs through emulation
at least, so DOS is still the common demominator.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 21 Jun 96 16:33:15 MS
Subject: Hey.....

Cynthia's back!  I thought something was missing.

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 20:01:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: TNE differences

"Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> said:
:On 20 Jun 96 at 21:00, matth spewed:
:> I never got around to buying Traveller New Era. The primary reason
:> being that as soon as I bought some stuff with Megatraveller , it was
:> no longer supported and TNE was. Are the rules in TNE drastically
:> different than in MT/CT?

:Character Generation rules are radically different, as well as ship
:design & combat (space & ground).  No good backwards compatibility either...

   I don't know if I'd go that far. The character system is still built
   on a range of 1-15, and the skill granularity has changed but
   characters can be converted. On the whole the character gen system
   is an improvement because 1) It's easier on the ref to arbitrate
   skills use, and 2) the available character classes actually have
   a broader range than CT/MT with richer skill bases to choose from -
   characters are no longer the 2D cutouts they used to be in CT.

   Space Combat is somehwat Kludgy, but no matter what you do here
   somebody is going to be unhappy. Make it complex and people scream,
   make it simple and purists (like me) scream.

:All in all a drastic change in system.  More importantly to old line
:players, there is a much bigger emphasis on military adventures...
:2 sample adventures are included, both of which are very military
:oriented, the character generation system even requires the players
:to be given call signs.

   I agree the RC has a more military leaning (I haven't seen any
   Regency stuff, so I can't comment there) but I can't see the two
   adventures in the rulebook as being particularly militaristic.

   In fact, despite being pretty militaristic on the surface, the RC
   background is excellent for traditional adventuring. Avoid "Smash
   and Grab" and the RC Equipment Book and you still have "Path of
   Tears" which is an AWESOME source of world info and RC background
   that can be used for *traditional* Traveller adventuring - survey,
   recover "treasure" (artifacts), intrigue, competing with "wilds"
   free traders...in fact there is no reason for the players to get
   involved with the RC at all. You could paint the RC as the Heavies
   and play appropriately, while the players struggle in their worn
   out hand-me-down Free Trader.

   *SPOILER WARNING*

   "Vampire Fleets" starts out military, but the players get stripped
   of their equipment fairly early, and it rapidly turns into a
   traditional traveller adventure with wheels within wheels and
   role-playing remaining central to the game.

:A lot of people objected to Virus.  I personally do not.  My only
:real beef with TNE was that it looked too much like Twilight: 2000
:with spaceships...  That and the fact that it was not backwards
:compatible with CT or MT.

   Virus *really* stretches believability, but after getting used to
   it I actually like the adventure possiblities. Virus adds a *major*
   source of tension and conflict, and creates an atmosphere of
   adventure that's hard to do in CT, with it's fairly sterile
   uniform background.


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 20:02:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Corps in space

Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net> said:
:       Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
:>Another great plot hook would be the arrival and dispatch of timely
:>information.  The fact that good or bad news might travel faster for
:>a megacorp (with bigger resources) as opposed to Joe's Mining
:>Company, is probably something that would give the Megacorps (who
:>could hire faster ships at will) an edge in a lot of instances.  A
:>guy with a fast ship in the right place at the right time could make
:>a killing off a little company...
[snip]

:        Basically, I think that for all but the Mega-Corps, trading on more
:than one planetary or systemic exchange would be pretty rare, although not
:unheard-of.  Going multi-systemic would be a critical-mass sort of
:operation, done only to finance major operations or expansions on the part

   Makes sense. Using the "bearer certificate" idea, you *could*
   trade on other markets, but why would anyone buy something they
   have no real idea of the value? They'd essentially be taking your
   word on it. Basically small-fry stuff would be junk off the planet
   of origin.

:much like today.  For stocks traded in several systems, OTOH, I see two
:possibilities; either it's all done via book entry systems (which would be
:slow, impede trading, and make couriers rich), or it'd be done via bearer
:securities (which would make heavily armed couriers rich).  Alternatively,
:maybe  you'd see central depository systems located on several worlds
:cooperating (actually, I think that this is most likely).  From an RPG angle
:though, I much prefer the latter option >:).

   Don't forget the computer option. Bearer securities or book entries
   might be heavily encrypted data packets on a disk/chip sent via the
   xboat network (useless without the securities company codes).


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:24:55 -0800
Subject: Big Rock vs Little RockS

The point of breaking up a big rock into little rocks is at least two-fold:

1: many small rocks will have divergent paths if the break is from large
energy transfer (kinetic or otherwise, as the disruptions will cause at
least some vaporizations, and angular variantions). Simple physics. Some
will not hit square, and if far enough out, some won't hit at all.

2: Faster atmospheric vaporization. earth gets hit by TONS of rock per
year, and most of it becomes vapor in the atmosphere. 99%+. What hits is
the largest chunks. Since surface vaporization losses are based upon
surface area, and smaller items have more survace area by volume, and mass
is linked to volume rather than surface area, smaller chunks will dissapate
more easily.

10 chunks of 0.5 tone each do not equal 1 chunk of 5 tons; the simple fact
that the .5 tonners will probably be 0.25 tons each by impact on a standard
atmosphere, where the 5 ton will propably be about 4... (figures themselves
not accurate, but illustrative to known theories of chemical and themal
degradation of objects.


William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:25:18 -0800
Subject: SCA in Traveller

> Giveaway, Jo - who are you, really?  (Incidentally, that makes
> _three_ publicly acknowledged SCA members on this list - you,
> me, and Paul.  Is it time for another debate on the nature of a
> Feudal Technocracy?)
>
> (from the Armorial of the Society for Creative Anachronism)
>
> Drachenwald, Kingdom of:
> Or, in fess three pine trees eradicated gules, overall a dragon
> passant coward, all within a laurel wreath, in chief an ancient
> crown sable.
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>Yosef ben Lazar                                   jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
>Seahorse Pursuivant

Being an occasional (and currently cardless) SCA type, I used sca style
heraldry for all dukes, counts, marquis and viscount with landed titles in
my game. Drop all the impaling, etc... just good old fashioned simple
devices.

In pendragon, I make them do impalings... but that's another matter.
("Whadda ya mean, 'You can't put a red dragon on top of a green hill with
blue skies!'???")

Wilhelm vonD=FCsseldorf, AoA, Former Acting Peregrin Pusuaivant, Barony of
Eskalya, Principality of Oertha, Kindom of the West...


William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:12:07 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE differences

Larry Hadley wrote:

> :A lot of people objected to Virus.  I personally do not.  My only
> :real beef with TNE was that it looked too much like Twilight: 2000
> :with spaceships...  That and the fact that it was not backwards
> :compatible with CT or MT.
> 
>    Virus *really* stretches believability, but after getting used to
>    it I actually like the adventure possiblities. Virus adds a *major*
>    source of tension and conflict, and creates an atmosphere of
>    adventure that's hard to do in CT, with it's fairly sterile
>    uniform background.

I must admit the first time I heard the virus thing I was kind of 
skeptical, but after that the consept began to grow on me.  Virus can be 
used to spaw multiple adventures using all kinds of role playing styles. 
 Want a fantasy adventure, virus is in control of a medival theme park.  
The possiblitities are endless.  Virus is wierdness and that's the best 
way to describe it.

DS

------------------------------

From: peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 22:21:08 -0400
Subject: RE: Corporations in space... (longish)

>        I really have no idea how the absence of instantaneous
>communications would affect a stock market.  I suspect that the equivalent
>of today's trend towards globalization just wouldn't occur; that each
>planet, perhaps each system, would have its own markets and regulators.
>Perhaps where strong central governments existed, you'd get uniform
>regulation and practices within their jurisdiction.  I'm just beginning to
>wonder how this would affect financing practices.  Ye gods...
>

Well... I would think to get an idea about how slow communications lines
would affect corporations spread over interstellar distances, all you'd need
to do is read up on how big business was affected by being spread over
global distances in the days of sailing ships.   Fortunes could be made or
lost depending on how fast your ships could get your goods to market.  

Typicaly the first one to market with a commodity made the most money in
that commodity. As more merchants showed up with their goods and the supply
increased the prices fell and the profit margin was reduced.

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
+-+-+-
PERSON: Peter L. Berghold         EMPLOYER: Teleport Communiations Group
PHONE : [Work] (718) 355-2722  [Home] (908) 918-0622
FAX   :        (718) 355-4282         (908) 918-1057 (call first)
EMAIL : peterb@superlink.net  -or- berghold@tcg.com 
URL   : http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb  


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:27:38 GMT
Subject: Re: Big Rock vs Little RockS

On Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:24:55 -0800, you wrote:
=> 2: Faster atmospheric vaporization. earth gets hit by TONS of rock per
=> year, and most of it becomes vapor in the atmosphere. 99%+. What hits is
=> the largest chunks. Since surface vaporization losses are based upon
=> surface area, and smaller items have more survace area by volume, and mass
=> is linked to volume rather than surface area, smaller chunks will dissapate
=> more easily.

True.  But most of the stuff raining down on our planet isn't travelling at the
discussed 0.1c.  We are dealing with a LOT of kinetic energy.  The Trin's Veil
scenario discussed earlier suggests placing a field of debris 50,000 km from the
center of the planet.  That's still only 1/6 of a light-second away.  Objects
travelling at 0.1c will traverse this distance in about a second and a half (not
much time at all).  The asteroid might be vapourized, but the debris still has
mass and will still stike the atmosphere/surface with the same amount of force
(similar to HEAP rounds or plasma/fusion slugs from plasma or fusion guns).

=> 10 chunks of 0.5 tone each do not equal 1 chunk of 5 tons; the simple fact
=> that the .5 tonners will probably be 0.25 tons each by impact on a standard
=> atmosphere, where the 5 ton will propably be about 4... (figures themselves
=> not accurate, but illustrative to known theories of chemical and themal
=> degradation of objects.

There is no debating this math.  However, for the Trin's Veil scenario to work,
the radius of the sphere would have to be much, much greater to affect a
determined asteroid from reaching the surface.  The spacing of the debris would
also have to be tight, to minimize the chances of a miss occuring.

------------------------------

From: Michael Bailey <mickb@thehub.com.au>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 12:39:10 -0900
Subject: Imperial Symbols

Judiciously avoiding the Red/Yellow/Purple/Pink Sunburst debate, I
cautiously offer a few other symbols:

Old Earth Union (interstaller polity that survived the Long Night until it's
eventual absorption by the Imperium around 588):  an evolved, stylised
version of the Terran Confederation motif i.e. the 'quartered circle' with
the old leaves around it simplified into a semi-circle.  The semi-circle is
broken into multi-coloured bands, symbolising the member states of the Union.

Fremantle Shipyards (a small shipbuilder that (now that MMT is coming out)
originated on Sylea before going bankrupt after the Civil War and being
relocated to Jewell/Spinward Marches by it's new owners):  A simplified
shield split vertically into a red half (right) and green half (left)  On
the shield is a stylised  purple dockworker holding an anchor.  (I've
shamelessly stolen this from my footy team, and have a nice little 4K JPEG
of it if anyone wants it!)

Ministry of Colonisation:  The Imperial Sunburst in green, with a stylised
gold sheaf of wheat inside.

Office of Interstellar Trade:  The 1Cr Coin (whatever that may be)

Thoughts?
Michael Bailey 

'quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand.  Ignorance and
prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.'
                             Rush, 'The Witchhunt'


------------------------------

From: Michael Bailey <mickb@thehub.com.au>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 12:39:12 -0900
Subject: The Rise of Solomani Militancy

Mostly waffle, feel free to ignore / comment / swat down...in response to
someone's complaint about the bad press that the Solomani always get...

>From Galen Sendati's 'Thus the Cause - An investigation into the emergence
of the Solomani Movement'  (Imperial Press, 1004):

'While many commentators point to Zhakirov's marriage to Antiama
Shuulingishi (sp?) as the defining moment that brought about the rise in
Solomani militancy, it's obvious power over many ethnic Solomani begs a more
dtailed explanation.

To examine the origins of their Cause, one must look at the historical
conditions of the Solomani.  Consider the Old Earth Union - by the time of
it's absorption into the Imperium in 588, the Union was a feeble polity,
dependant on the Imperium for it's defense and prosperity.  The Imperium had
defended the Union against Aslan incursions during the Border Wars, subtly
ensuring the Union's dependence following the Peace of Ftalahr (sp?).

It was a situation that galled many prominent Solomani in 588.  Far from the
dynamic, all-conquering champions that defeated the Vilani and established
the Rule of Man, the Solomani felt themselves to be weak, cautious and
hidebound by traditions that, while perhaps necessary during the Long Night,
were outmoded and restrictive.  For a race so highly charged with ethnic
dynamism, it was perhaps inevitable that a radical new approach would be sought.

Even as Solomani interests dominated the Imperial Court to Zhakirov's
marriage, almost unconsiously, a few malcontents despised the increasing
cosmopolitanism of the Imperium. Until 740, they could achieve their ends
from within the system.  Afterwards, they rejected both the Imperium and
their own traditions - striking a new path that would culminate in the Rim
War, a disaster that was unavoidable from the moment the first Imperial
squadrons rushed to the defense of the Old Earth Union.

It doesn't pay to underestimate Solomani.  Despite their faults - the
inherent obnoxiouness of their cause, their myopic racism and specism, and
their stubborn refusal to compromise, they draw deep from the reserves of
their people.  They will sacrifice themselves for causes that seem hopeless
to the average Imperial, and they never forget a wrongdoing - real or
perceived.  The popular press dismisses the Solomani as bumbling fanatics -
but with my own eyes I have seen them perform acts of daring, ingenuity,
courage and sacrifice that run counter to the popular perception.

No, do not underestimate them - even the capture of their homeworld could
not break their spirit.  Acknowledge their strengths, exploit their
weaknesses, and dont _ever_ turn your back on them.'


Major Galen Sendati (ret, Imperial Marines)
Michael Bailey 

'quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand.  Ignorance and
prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.'
                             Rush, 'The Witchhunt'


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 23:04:00 -0500
Subject: [T96#124] Imperial Senate

T::>>2. The Imperal Senate : Imperial Gold Sunburst with a sword and fascii

T::>This is good history question.  We know that by 1116, the Imperial
 ::>government consists of the Emperor, the Moot, and the Bureaucracy.  The
 ::>Emperor is the emporer -- apparently a benevolent autocrat.  The Moot
 ::>consists of all of the Imperial nobility.  The Bureaucracy is not a
 ::>constitutionally recognized branch of the government, but has enormous power
 ::>and actually runs the Imperium, implementing Imperial edicts and
 ::>promulgating regulations as needed to do so.

T::>So, was there ever an Imperial Senate?  What happened to it?

 (Note:  The following is not canon [unless MM wishes it to be].
 It is merely what I feel is a reasonable summary of what might
 have happened to convert a federal organization into an Imperial
 one.

 The Sylean Federation government was organized using a variation
 on an ancient Terran model.  The Government was divided into
 three parts:

 The Executive Committee was ultimately responsible for ensuring
 the proper execution of Federation law; a bureaucracy under their
 direction was responsible for the administrative affairs thereof.
 Nominally, the Senior Member of the Committee was both Head of
 State and Head of Government; in practice, the Committee acted to
 ensure that no one member had greater public prominence than any
 of the other, and that none had more prominence than the Committee
 as a whole.  This resulted in quite a lot of in-fighting, and
 almost every Committee action was a compromise of ill-will -
 including the frequent selection of the High Judicar as the
 representative of the Government at functions requiring the
 presence of the Head of State, and in announcing decisions and
 actions of the Committee and of the Senad.

 The High Judicar was the final arbiter of justice; all Federation
 courts were ultimately responsible to him.  The frequent
 representations as head-of-state asked of him by the ExComm
 associated the position with that of head-of-state; in -120, the
 ExComm, wishing to eliminate the bickering over the issue of
 representation of the Federation at state occasions, voted to make
 this selection permanent, ceding all Head-of-State duties to the
 High Judicar.

 The legislative powers of the Federation were vested in a Senad
 [sic] composed of one person from each member planet, selected in
 a manner chosen by the member planet.  Legislation developed by
 the Senad was sent to the ExComm for approval (signature of the
 Head of Government).  During the last decades of the Federation,
 an economic crisis due to Federation expansion beyond its capacity
 to cope resulted in attempts to pass "emergency" legislation in
 the "public interest".  Much of this legislation was directly
 counter to many of the governing documents of the Federation; by
 -50 challenges to any legislation passed by the Senad had become
 routine, and by -35 all legislation was routinely submitted to
 the High Judicar for an opinion on its legality.  If the High
 Judicar found no legal problems with the legislation, he would
 forward it to the ExComm for final approval.

 In -15, the industrialist Cleon Zhunastu was elected to the post
 of High Judicar.  He was a charismatic individual, and was able to
 draw much support to the Federation government at the time.  In
 -12, taking advantage of an unrealized loophole in the Federation
 Charter, he was elected to ExComm, while maintaining his position
 as High Judicar.  He used the powers of both offices to block any
 attempt to close the loophole, and won re-election to both
 positions in -10 and -7.  Since he was the only member of the
 ExComm to be re-elected in that term, he became de jure both head
 of state and head of government.  In this term, he began setting
 up and/or reorganizing the organizations and bureaux that would
 eventually become much of the Imperial bureaucracy.  In -5 and -2,
 he was elected to unprecedented third terms in both offices, due
 to policies that brought prosperity to many Federation planets,
 while still allowing for continued expansion of the Federation.
 Only months before the election of year 0, he staged a bloodless
 coup-d'tat, proclaiming himself Emperor, with the support of the
 Senad (all of whose members had been promised significant
 concessions and titles of nobility under the new Imperium, as a
 quid-pro-quo for their support).  Legal challenges were (in
 accordance with the Federation Charter) brought before the Senad
 (as the High Judicar was a party to the action), who generally
 refused to hear the cases, saying, in effect, that the challenges
 were moot, what was done was done. The Senad was referred to
 derisively as "the moot" in the press; Emperor Cleon's public
 relations specialists dug into some old dictionaries, and started
 using (and publicly defining) the term "moot" according to
 ancient Terran usage, which developed into the meaning that it has
 today.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  I don't like money - but it quiets my spirit.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #136
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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 22 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 137

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Securities Fraud in Space...
         2. One list to bind them all....
         3. Automatic subject header
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #126
         5. Re: The Myth (Maybe) of Neutrino Sensors
         6. fuel skimming
         7. engineers
         8. Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)
         9. RE: SCA in Traveller
        10. Imperial Symbols
        11. death to racist pigs! (as we say here on Planet Berkeley)
        12. RE: Corps in Space
        13. RE: Corporations in space... (longish)
        14. Starship Economics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:39:39 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Securities Fraud in Space...

>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
>Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:07:55 -0800
>Subject: RE: Corporations in space... (longish)
>
>On 21 Jun 96 at 19:10, Roderick Darroch Elliott spewed:
>
>>         I really have no idea how the absence of instantaneous
>> communications would affect a stock market.  I suspect that the equivalent
>> of today's trend towards globalization just wouldn't occur; that each
>> planet, perhaps each system, would have its own markets and regulators.
>> Perhaps where strong central governments existed, you'd get uniform
>> regulation and practices within their jurisdiction.  I'm just beginning to
>> wonder how this would affect financing practices.  Ye gods...
>
>You know, I really wasn't sure about this 1 either, but I suspect 
>that stock markets (particularly for those dealing off-world 
>securities) are going to be even more tightly regulated...  I 
>remember 1 of the early-TNS entries talking about Tukera buying drop 
>tanks from General Shipyards, and Oberlindes lines dropping 27 
>poijnts, and the exchange suspending trading...

        That makes sense... if the potential for abuse is high, the
regulators are going to be watching things like hawks and will have their
fingers on the trigger.


>
>Kind of brings up an interesting scenario...  Imagine what would have 
>happened to Johnson & Johnson during the Tylenol scare, if J&J 
>headquarters didn't happen to be in the same system as the exchange it 
>was traded on.  News releases about people dying from tainted 
>capsules spreads far and wide across the sector, before J&J top 
>management even hears about the disaster to begin formulating the 
>responses.  Meanwhile, every day, the stock drops like a rock.  
>Pretty soon, a thousand shares of Johnson & Johnson would be worth 
>the price of a cup of coffee, and J&J might not even have heard about 
>the incidents yet.  Again, the megacorps have the edge, because they 
>have offices on most major worlds (and 1 would imagine just about 
>every world where their stock was traded...   


        I just figured out that the trick to avoid taking (serious) damage
on something like this scenario is to have no more than 5% (or similarly
small percentage) of your securities floated on any one planetary
exchange...  This would degrade over time (especially with those nasty
bearer shares!), although you could have timed compulsory buybacks (shares
expire after a certain period of time and you'd have to issue some more to
cover the cost of the buyback; I have no idea of the financial side effects
this would have yet) to get them out of circulation and redistribute the
equity around the various exchanges again.  Hm....

>
>I could see several scenarios out of this.
>
>1)  Megacorporation thinks small, but dynamic competitor is becoming 
>a serious threat, and starts sending xboat messages about pending 
>demise of and disasters affecting the company.  PC's must trace 
>source of rumors and eliminate (possibly incurring rath of the 
>megacorp).
>
>2)  New company on a backwater world develops a dynamic new process 
>for manufacturing or a new technology, but needs to send a press 
>release to the nearest xboat route.  PC's are charged with 
>intercepting this message before it hits the xboat network...
>
>3) As a follow up to number 2, Megacorp, having successfully 
>preventing the transmittal of the message, substitutes a message of 
>their own, telling a tale of woe about the smaller company, causing 
>the company's stock to plummet to the point where they would not be 
>able to finance the new product's manufacture, allowing Megacorp to 
>buy the company for pennies on the dollar, and then manufacture the 
>product itself...
>

        Just one point: once the stock has been issued, what happens is that
an underwriting firm or syndicate of firms has bought the issue lock stock
and barrel, and then proceeded to sell it to the unsuspecting greedheads...
er, investing public.  The company, unless it underestimated development
costs, therefore already has all the capital it needs, and stock price won't
affect its ability to develop the product.

        Of course, if its stock tanks and it's got a valuable asset like the
process you describe, or if it is otherwise fundamentally sound, that just
spells potential hostile (or otherwise) takeover, 'cause then its a bargain.
Of course, poison pills and other takeover defences will probably have
evolved enormously by then :).


>>         Basically, I think that for all but the Mega-Corps, trading on more
>> than one planetary or systemic exchange would be pretty rare, although not
>> unheard-of.  Going multi-systemic would be a critical-mass sort of
>
>Very, very true...
>
>> securities (which would make heavily armed couriers rich).  Alternatively,
>> maybe  you'd see central depository systems located on several worlds
>> cooperating (actually, I think that this is most likely).  From an RPG angle
>> though, I much prefer the latter option >:).
>
>Even if the central depository systems cooperating would be very 
>subject to a corporate sponsored PC group creating a lost message 
>here, a lost message there...  Basically with STL communications, you 
>should be able to manipulate the stock market artificially in all 
>sorts of ways.  Probably much like the robber barons of the late 19th 
>century did in the US...

        Agreed.  I think that from a regulation point of view, you're going
to see one of two scenarios: either Commando Securities Commissions From
Hell, or utter laxness.  Both could get interesting; Regulators in
Battledress(tm) could make interesting adversaries as they (mistakenly or
not) try to prosecute/persecute the PCs for imagined market manipulations...
OTOH, laxness could lead to interesting shananigans/intimidation of yuppies :).


>
>> >Your ideas on bearer securities are great...  I can see adventure 
>> >ideas forming in my head as we speak...
>> 
>>         Here's one that I've been mulling over: Mega-Corp X appears to be
>> the target of a systematic attempt to drive down its share prices by
>> releasing perfectly forged bearer shares (voting ones) into several
>> planetary markets.  Obviously, the directors of Xco don't want the news to
>
><snip>
>
>>         The ending (after the usual RPG shenanigans/carnage/much
>> intimidation of yuppies) would be as follows:  it turns out that the
>
>I'm all in favor of intimidation of yuppies :-)
>
>I hadn't developed any of them to any great extent, but here they 
>are.
>
[snip]
>I'm sure with a little creativity, we or someone else could come up 
>with more...
>

        Yup... the possibilities are probably near-endless :).



   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   |-------------------------------------------------|
   | "An imperfect plan implemented immediately and  |
   |  violently will always succeed better than a    |
   |  perfect plan"                                  |
   |	             -Gen. George Patton             |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:32:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: One list to bind them all....

I wholeheartedly agree with the unification of the lists idea.  THis comes
from someone who likes CT\MT\TNE equally (I think each has both it's flaws
and good points).  I've taken to almost not reading the XBOat Digest I get
because I know that 90% of the posts are duplicated in the Traveller list
which I always get first (strangely enough).

Surely the people on this list can stand seeing the occasional post they're
not interested.  Personally, I'm not following the rock-dropping or
engineers threads and I can stand it.  

So long as subject lines tell what the message is about correctly we should
have no troubles in combining the lists, IMHO

Peter Miller


------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:35:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Automatic subject header

Hi,

(Sorry for the off-topic)

Is it possible for majordomo (that's what TML\XTML are on, right?) to
generate an automatic subject header for each message which is placed before
the written in subject line.  For example, wiritn TRAVELLER before each
message, or XBOAT.

eg.  My subject line would be:

[TRAVELLER] Automatic subject header

This would be extremely useful in filtering mail through an automatic
program, but I'm not sure\don't think it's possible.  Can anyone fill me in?

Peter Miller


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 22:05:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #126

Thus spake cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic):
 
> 2) MMT? 

One of the Names-Not-Names for the next version of Traveller.
  
> 3) We're *still* discussing Rock-Dropping?  ARRGGGGHHHH! 
>    (TML "thread that never dies" #1...) 

I know.  Awful, isn't it?
  
> 5) Planetary Meson guns (TML "thread that never dies" #2). In both 
>    HG and FF&S, those are SHORT-RANGE weapons.  An attacker can 
>    sterilize the surface of your planet with long-range nuclear 
>    missiles without ever getting into range... or surgically remove 
>    your starports and military bases.  And, huge Asteroid Defense Lasers 
>    (designed in FF&S) have longer range, do more damage at less cost 
>    in money and input energy, and give you something to use on thrown 
>    Rocks and invasion fleets. 

MGs can be LONG-RANGE weapons if you build the tunnel long enough.  
You're right about the lasers, though, unless you impose the TL*50 
discharge energy rule, which keeps them from wrecking established canon 
regarding starship design and combat (I mean -- what's the point of using 
anything else?).  I think that the thread would be dead by now, if it 
weren't for the occasional interjection of poorly-researched or downright 
untrue "facts."
  
> 6) I see lots of suggestions for articles and supplements for T4. 
>    Is there a "house magazine" or something like that in the works, 
>    yet?  i.e., where will support materials be published?   
>    Bring back JOTAS! 

Well, unless I hallucinated it while reading IG's webpage, JOTAS is on 
its way back.
  
> 7) If all this including CT stuff is going on *here*, what's on 
>    the Xboat TML? 

I dunno.  Go and check it out...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 22:23:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: The Myth (Maybe) of Neutrino Sensors

Thus spake bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh):
 
> Wes Payne writes
> 
> >Neutrino sensors are useless for finding fission and fusion power plants.
> 
> >Given a one-ton detector trying to sniff out a
> >100 Mw fusion plant, you can expect a hit about once every 50,000 years.  
> 
> Those numbers are based on current neutrino detectors - giant tanks of 
> (insert substance here) hoping for a neutrino to hit and interact with an
> atom of (insert substance here) through the weak interaction, which has, as
> noted, incredibly low cross-sections. 
 
[Bruce goes on to note that at higher TLs, other systems which offer a 
 better chance of detecting neutrinos, including those utilizing nuclear
 damper technology, could be used, resulting in smaller detectors with
 a better chance of picking up the low-level buggers which are the 
 byproduct of fusion plant operation per unit volume]

Good point.  Those ARE contemporary figures I cited.  However, if I AM 
going to have to rely on a deus ex machina (did I figure your 
abbreviation right?) to make neutrino sensors useful for starship combat 
situations, I don't want to go and take the liberties that previous 
systems have taken with them ("I'll sniff out that fusion flashlight at 2 
AU!") -- I prefer to think of them only being capable of reliably 
locating an average-sized (100 Mw) fusion plant at relatively short space 
combat ranges.  That way, my previous comments regarding them and deep 
meson sites stand, DMS canon (a la TNE) is more or less maintained, and 
we can finally see an end to that goddamn thread.  I don't want to send 
you scurrying back to your calculator, but how much DENSER 
(damper-manipulated or otherwise) would your detection medium have to be 
in order to pick up, say, 1 neutrino a minute from a 100 Mw fusion source 
utilizing a one (displacement) ton (14 m^3) detector?  Or am I just 
asking the wrong guy?

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:16:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: fuel skimming

>From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU

>	In truth, I don't know, as I've never seen an accurate description 
>of exactly HOW a ship skimming fuel works...unless you have scoops 

This doesn't answer your question about necessary depth to get fuel, but I
think that the scene in 2010 when they use Jupiter's gravity to slingshot
out to Saturn (I think those planets) conveys what it's like to go through
the outer edge of a GG atmosphere.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:16:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: engineers

>From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk

>I end up always playing an engineer 'cause the rest have taken the more
'lucrative' >posts.
>
>But you can create some great gadgets to prevent a pirate takeover :)

See C.J. Cherryh, Rimrunners.  The tech is far different than Traveller, but
the ending could be tweaked and made to work.  For those who haven't read
it, I recommend it, and give this clue:  zzzZZzzap!

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:27:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)

Thus spake shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson):

> Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu> writes:

["fourteen cubic meters is a lot of stuff to haul a parsec", and other 
 things that you've already seen.]
 
> Consider that a standard cargo container these days is roughly 2.5m
> square on the end and about 8-10 meters long (I don't have exact
> figures). That's about 4 displacement tons. The trailers on
> tractor/trailer rigs are about the same size.
> 
> So we need to check with local trucking concerns and with shipping
> firms. 
 
> > Let's face it:  Fourteen cubic meters is actually a LOT of 
> > STUFF.  With a little shoving, I could probably get three of my cars into 
> > that volume.
> 
> I seriously doubt it. A typical car is a good 6 meters long and 2
> meters wide. Going for even *one* meter thick (convertible?) that gets
> you 12 cubic meters right there.
> 
> 14 cubic meters is about an 8 foot cube.

Or, 2m x 2m x 3.5m.  I should have clarified:  When I said "my car," I 
meant 1988 Toyota Corolla FX, not 1977 Cadillac Coupe De Ville.  Of 
course, if I *shoved* three of my cars into the aforementioned space, at 
least one of them would probably not be driveable afterwards.  Still, I'm 
sure that we can agree that 14 m^3 is A Lot of Stuff, so I think that my 
previous point (did I have one?) still holds.
 
> > While I'm Ranting:  The trade and commerce rules, as presented in MT and 
> > TNE, needed work.  There are some things (like official documents and 
> > currency) that, if handled in one-ton lots, wouldn't be handled by 
> > ordinary civilians.
> 
> You might be surprised. Regular cargo carriers routinely handle
> "official documents" (like all the records when they move the IRS
> office into a different state). And countries that don't print their
> own currency (there are a lot of those) get it shipped in from the
> printer (the US has several companies that print banknotes). 

Now, were these currency carriers "average Joes," like a typical Free 
Trader who just happened to wander into port looking for freight, or were 
these people with some credentials?  You know, bonds, certification, 
extensive background checks, and not a little official oversight?  The people 
handling this stuff might be civilians, but not as ordinary as "Joe Free 
Trader."  What hacked me off originally is that there are more 
restrictions placed on a Free Trader wanting to handle mail than there 
were on one wanting to haul somebody else's currency.
 
> > Also, those rules presume that some goods won't be 
> > more valuable than others.  Example:  Since when do weapons have the 
> > same base price per ton as does mineral ore, or flavored water?  I can 
> > see where the trade and commerce rules were 'dumbed up' for the sake of 
> > simplicity, but they also made it harder to turn a profit, even when 
> > suffering wild success in the cargo speculation business.
 
> I dunno about "flavored water". Let's assume 2 liter bottles of soda. A
> quick check gives me 9 bottles in a 40 cm cube, or about 200 per DT. So
> that gives me a value of $1000 per DT.
 
> As for weapons, I know what sort of shipping case SKS rifles and AK-47s
> come in (a friend used to be a dealer). A 2x1x1 meter box holds a dozen
> rifles. So 7 such boxes in a DT, for 84 rifles per DT. So we get about
> $4000 per DT. 
 
> Mineral ore, I can't say.

Don't need to.  You've already pointed out a factor of four difference in 
"base cost" between two different potential cargos.  I could have picked 
a more radical difference, such as the cost-per-ton of precious gemstones 
as opposed to simple mineral ore.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:48:55 -0500
Subject: RE: SCA in Traveller

> Giveaway, Jo - who are you, really?  (Incidentally, that makes
> _three_ publicly acknowledged SCA members on this list - you,
> me, and Paul.  Is it time for another debate on the nature of a
> Feudal Technocracy?)
>
Its to bad there is not an organization similar to the SCA for Traveller
enthusiasts.

------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:03:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Imperial Symbols

>From: Michael Bailey <mickb@thehub.com.au>

>Fremantle Shipyards :  A simplified shield split vertically into a red half
(right) and >green half (left)  On the shield is a stylised purple
dockworker holding an anchor.  

Doesn't this violate the no color-on-color rule?

>Ministry of Colonisation:  The Imperial Sunburst in green, with a stylised
>gold sheaf of wheat inside.

I would think a sheaf of rice.  Far more rice is consumed on Terra today,
and will be by 2400, than wheat.  Two or three thousand-odd years after
that, it'll be rice in a thousand genetically-engineered forms that people
will think of when they think of new agricultural worlds.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:16:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: death to racist pigs! (as we say here on Planet Berkeley)

>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>

>You gotta admit that its different for the guys from Earth to play 
>the heavies in a Sci-Fi setting though...  

Admitted!

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:32:55 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: RE: Corps in Space

        Larry Hadley wrote:
>
>:        Basically, I think that for all but the Mega-Corps, trading on more
>:than one planetary or systemic exchange would be pretty rare, although not
>:unheard-of.  Going multi-systemic would be a critical-mass sort of
>:operation, done only to finance major operations or expansions on the part
>
>   Makes sense. Using the "bearer certificate" idea, you *could*
>   trade on other markets, but why would anyone buy something they
>   have no real idea of the value? They'd essentially be taking your
>   word on it. Basically small-fry stuff would be junk off the planet
>   of origin.
>

        I agree to an extent.  Really well-printed bearer securities with
some sort of fairly foolproof authentication from the regulators on the
planet of origin might be saleable at a discount, but otherwise, the only
people that would be traded in multiple planetary exchanges are the really
big corps that everyone knows about.

>
>   Don't forget the computer option. Bearer securities or book entries
>   might be heavily encrypted data packets on a disk/chip sent via the
>   xboat network (useless without the securities company codes).
>

        Interesting angle.  For the book entry stuff, all that really
matters is that someone communicates to the company "Shareholder X just
transferred Y% of her interest in the company to individual Z on such and
such a date and such and such a place"; encrypted electronic storage would
work just as well as paper or phone or whatever as a medium to transmit it
the message.

        However, a share is just ownership of a chunk of a company, and
share certificates are just a way of evidencing that the share exists.
Thus, you could see bearer shares existing in non-paper form.  [bear with
me, mental gears are grinding as I write]  So, in this case, the
encryption/password protection would be authentification a) of the validity
of the electronically-incarnated bearer share, and b), the validity of the
transfer of the share; the role of the brokerage would simply be to certify
that the transfer was on the up & up.

        Makes sense.  You could still get the usual bearer-share problems,
only it'd be much more difficult to steal or forge them.  However, if
someone managed to crack the encryption scheme..>:).  

        What would make for a real kicker of a plot motor would be someone
stealing the Master Encryption Key for the (hypothetical) Imperial
Securities Commission and is busily stealing/forging bearer shares and
making a killing.  This would severely undermine confidence in the integrity
of capital markets throughout the Imperium, possibly causing a market crash
of truly astronomical proportions and economic chaos and depression on an
Imperium-wide scale (hey... and there I was thinking dropping rocks was
brutally cool chaos & destruction) and so the ISC send out the players to
catch the miscreant.

        I wonder what the ISC logo would look like... The imperial shield,
with two rampant yuppies yoked, argent, on the lower portion :)?



   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   |-------------------------------------------------|
   | "An imperfect plan implemented immediately and  |
   |  violently will always succeed better than a    |
   |  perfect plan"                                  |
   |	             -Gen. George Patton             |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:32:59 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: RE: Corporations in space... (longish)

>>
>>        I really have no idea how the absence of instantaneous
>>communications would affect a stock market.  I suspect that the equivalent
>>of today's trend towards globalization just wouldn't occur; that each
>>planet, perhaps each system, would have its own markets and regulators.
>>Perhaps where strong central governments existed, you'd get uniform
>>regulation and practices within their jurisdiction.  I'm just beginning to
>>wonder how this would affect financing practices.  Ye gods...
>>
>Well... I would think to get an idea about how slow communications lines
>would affect corporations spread over interstellar distances, all you'd need
>to do is read up on how big business was affected by being spread over
>global distances in the days of sailing ships.   Fortunes could be made or
>lost depending on how fast your ships could get your goods to market.  
>
>Typicaly the first one to market with a commodity made the most money in
>that commodity. As more merchants showed up with their goods and the supply
>increased the prices fell and the profit margin was reduced.

        The thing is is that we're not talking about commodities here, but
rather corporate securities.  There's a world of difference; what gives a
share its value is the underlying worth of the company as a whole (and
therefore its potential to provide regular dividends), not just consumer
demand and vagaies in supply.  Information about the company in question can
affect the market value (not neccessrily the true value) of the stock.
Today, with electronic communications, some people trade stocks on different
exchanges, making their money of the minor (sometimes as low as fractions of
a cent per share) fluctuations in value that exist for brief windows of time.

        Throw in an absence of FTL communication, and things could get
pretty interesting...



   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   |-------------------------------------------------|
   | "An imperfect plan implemented immediately and  |
   |  violently will always succeed better than a    |
   |  perfect plan"                                  |
   |	             -Gen. George Patton             |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:42:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Starship Economics

 I said:
 >>         I think the scenario you have scetched above is _exactly_ why the
 >> Imperium has chosen to standardize freight rates across the Empire.  If
 >> they did not, all those little backwater worlds would be at the mercy of
 >> traders and shipping companies who could gouge them at will, particularly
 >> when lives are at stake, as in your example.
 
 Stu said:
 >Yes, but how realistic is this...  I mean the Imperium lets
 >dictatorships exist with impunity.  Heck, theyll even let 1 system
 >invade another, as long as they dont use nukes to do so.  What makes
 >you think that your average subsector duke is going to give a rip>
 >because a trader decides to triple the cargo rate from an E-class
 >starport to an A class starport...
 
 	Well, first of all, a worlds government type is considered to be 
 an internal matter, just like freight rates between cities on a world are 
 an internal matter.  Secondly, I was under the impression that 
 interstellar wars were strictly forbidden by the Empire, nukes or not.  
 The reason the subsector duke cares is because the Empire exists to knit 
 its disparate member worlds together.  One of the most effective ways to 
 do this is trade.  If Free Traders singly or in groups (a la the Guild) 
 are artificially raising rates such that the economic cohesiveness of his 
 subsector is affected, then hed be concerned.	
 Stu said:
 >And even if the Imperium can regulate rates, they cant control the
 >market.  If Im a trader, under the current rules, I have NO
 >incentive to jump into an E class port.  Because they generally are
 >going to have less goods to ship, Im usually going to wind up
 >leaving with a half empty hold, and Im not going to be able to make
 >extra cash to compensate for that.
 
 	Thats true.  Its one of the unfortunate problems of interfering 
 with the interstellar economy by subsidizing ships and so on.  Note that 
 having subsidized ships is as big if not a bigger disincetive to free 
 traders because those folks can undercut your price so much because they 
 dont have to pay a mortgage.
 	The solution, as I suggested before, though perhaps not clearly 
 enough, is to have fixed rates, but rates which vary by situation.  
 1000Cr would be the price ceiling on freight between A&B starports.  
 Maybe 1250 for C ports and 1750 for E ports, or whatever.
 	One big advantage for Free Traders going to out of the way places 
 like E and C ports is that they are not going to be serviced regularly by 
 the big lines, so rather than having to pick up the crumbs left by 
 Tukera, they get to be the main engines of interstellar commerce.  This 
 means there will almost _always_ be plenty of freight at these locations 
 for small fry like free traders.
 	The other big incentive to stay away from the big worlds is that 
 free traders are simply not competitive in these places.  When I get a 
 chance I will dig out the freight hauling system that I came up with that 
 allows big shipping companies to make money at a little over 500Cr/Td.
 
 Stu said:
 >The Imperium is so high and mighty about keeping the shipping rates
 >at Cr1000/ton, but they dont give a rip if I bought say a cargo hold
 >full of electronic equipment at a cheap price, from a high tech
 >industrial world where computers are included in boxes of cereal, and
 >take it to that same backwater world, and jack the price up 400%.
 
 	There are two responses to this.  First, yes, this is somewhat 
 inconsistent, but that is what happens when you mess with the free 
 market.  The second is that arbitrage opportunities like this are exactly 
 what "gains from trade" are all about.  You make a big proft, which gives 
 you and other people an incentive to keep on that trade route until 
 enough people enter and the price comes down to competitive levels.
 Discovering and exploiting those opportunities is what Free Traders are 
 for.  The important point is that with low freight rates, even people who 
 do not own ships can import computers and make money -- without the 
 shipping companies stealing all the profit.  The situation is analogous 
 to the late 19th Century when everyone hated the railroads for exploiting 
 their privelaged position.  The answer chosen at the time was government 
 regulation.  The Empire seems to have taken a similar approach to 
 interstellar shipping.
 
 >> >Class of the shipping Starport
 > >>Class of the receiving Starport
 > >>Need for quick delivery
 > >>Negotiating skills of the shipper and owner of the goods
 > >>Amber Zone or Red Zone bonuses
 >>       I agree that the fixed Imperial freight rate should be dependent
 >I guess what Im trying to say is that there should not be a FIXED
 >Imperial freight rate.  Maybe a maximum and a minimum, varied by a
 >great number of factors and a little bit of random chance.  Cr 1000
 >would work as a minimum, but not as a maximum...
 
 	We are in agreement here.  1000Cr would be the lowest rate.  
 Higher rates would exist for more out of the way places, like E class ports.
 
 I said:
 >>on the factors you mention.  1000Cr should probably be the rate between
 >>two Class A starports.  For TNE I ran a lot of numbers for a merchant
 >>campaign I am working on with some other folks on the list, and found
 >> that with a big, integrated shipping system you could actually make
 >> money on 1000Cr/Td.  But such a system only works between hi-pop worlds
 >> with a lot of regular trade.  The Empire also knew this and knew that
 >> the outer reaches of the empire (which most needed trade to bring them
 >> into the Imperial fold) could not support such a system and that Free
 >> Traders could not make any money at the 1000Cr/Td rate.  That is
 >> why subsidized merchants were invented.  Since they only have to give
 >> half their gross to the Empire, rather than pay a mortgage, they can
 >> actually do quite well at 1000Cr/Td.
 
 Stu said:
 >Youre going against the face of logic to some extent with this
 >argument...  Trade between high pop, high value worlds, arent going
 >to be serviced by free traders or subsidized merchants.  Theyre
 >going to be served by the bulk carriers, the megacorps...
 
 	Precisely my point.  And all the more reason for Free Traders to 
 go off to the E ports where they can compete and not get squashed by the 
 big boys.
 
 Stu said:
 >Free traders and subsidized merchants are going to exist at the
 >fringes.  Yes subsidized ships should have the edge in the backwaters
 >(they are after all being subsidized to serve the backwaters), but
 >free traders should be able to make money too.  Otherwise, there is
 >no reason for free traders to exist...  A fixed, 1 size fits all in
 >every circumstance shipping rate just doesnt work in a capitalist
 >system, which is what we are led to believe the Imperium is...  It
 >doesnt exist on Earth, with instantaneous communication, and next
 >day shipping, and it has even less of a chance of existing in a
 >far-flung, star spanning empire with no FTL communications, and next
 >week shipping if youre really, really, lucky...good intentions of an
 >Empire in regulating commerce or not...
 
 	I know what you are getting at.  Free trade is often the best 
 solution, and I am _not_ saying that fixed rates is necessarily the best 
 policy for the empire to pursue, but it is the one which it appears to 
 have pursued, along with subsidized merchants and other things.
 	From a gaming perspective, we need a way for PC.s with ships to 
 make a living.  1000Cr/Td for freight is not quite enough.  Since Free 
 Traders are the kind of ships that are going to ply out of the way 
 worlds, they need to be able to make money doing it or there wont _be_ 
 interstellar trade except that which the empire chooses to subsidize.  
 So, freight rates need to be higher in the out of the way places that 
 Free Traders are likely to go.  That said, I think we should also note 
 that Free Traders are not about freight hauling.  They _should_ be 
 carrying spec cargos to scrape by.  If for no other reason than just 
 loading up with generic freight at every port is *boring*.
 
 --Muir
 

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 22 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 138

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. IISS symbol
         2. Death in character generation
         3. securities
         4. Corporations in space
         5. Securities fraud in space
         6. Legal Systems

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:16:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: IISS symbol

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

>>> IMPERIAL INTERSTELLAR SCOUT SERVICE:

>It was in DGP's "World Builder's Handbook" first.  

No, it was in 6 JTAS first (quoted in another post of mine to this list).

>Since the canon has the ponii symbol being used for the X-boat system, and
not adopted >until after the civil war, 

Where does idea come from?

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:16:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Death in character generation

>From: muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (John Kovalic)

>Between my recent marriage and business trips, I haven't had a lot of time

Congratulations!

>PS. I hear characters will no longer risk death during generation. Am I the
only person >who LOVED the fact that they could kick the bucket before the
game even started? 

No -- I loved it, too!  I'll probably add it back in.

>To me, this was the risk you took in trying to come up with a pumped-up
"Super >Character." The time alone you'd spend creating your character meant
that you didn't >want to take that one last crap shoot and risk losing your
beloved creation.

I loved it for exactly the same reason -- trading risks for benefits is one
of the most important, pervasive, frightening, and exhilarating facts of
life, and a game that simulates life should strive to capture it, even in
character generation.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:16:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: securities

>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>

>On 20 Jun 96 at 10:18, Roderick Darroch Elliott spewed:
>
>>         What I'va also been thinking of is how STL would affect securities
>> markets...  and one conclusion I've come to (purely because the chaos that
>> can be wreaked is too good to pass up) is that bearer securities would be a

>Another great plot hook would be the arrival and dispatch of timely 
>information.  The fact that good or bad news might travel faster for 

>Your ideas on bearer securities are great...  I can see adventure 
>ideas forming in my head as we speak...

I agree with both of you -- it's a wonderful anachronism that our 57th
Century computers can analyze and process all of the financial information
about a company in the blink of an eye and tell us the likelihood of the
company succeeding or failing (and thus whether to go long or short), but
the information is known to be weeks or more out of date, and the securities
themselves are trading like cash.  I'm going to be running securities fraud
scams in my games while I sue on them in real life.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:16:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Corporations in space

>From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>

>        I really have no idea how the absence of instantaneous
>communications would affect a stock market.  I suspect that the equivalent
>of today's trend towards globalization just wouldn't occur; that each
>planet, perhaps each system, would have its own markets and regulators.

I think you're right.

>For stocks traded on only one (planetary or systemic) exchange, the usual
central >depository system would probably work, much like today.  For stocks
traded in several >systems, OTOH, I see two possibilities; either it's all
done via book entry systems >(which would be slow, impede trading, and make
couriers rich), or it'd be done via >bearer securities (which would make
heavily armed couriers rich).  

Suppose that the bearer securities are encrypted computer-readable files,
and are transmitted via xboat?  Does that change your vision of how the
system would work?

>        Here's one that I've been mulling over: Mega-Corp X appears to be
the target of >a systematic attempt to drive down its share prices by
releasing perfectly forged >bearer shares (voting ones) into several
planetary markets.  

Perfectly forged electronically encrytped computer-readable files? yes, it
could be done.

Regarding the rest of the adventure: ROTFL!

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:16:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Securities fraud in space

>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>

>I could see several scenarios out of this.

>2)  New company ["New Company"] on a backwater world develops a dynamic new
process for >manufacturing or a new technology, but needs to send a press
release to the nearest >xboat route.  PC's are charged with intercepting
this message before it hits the xboat >network...
>
>3) As a follow up to number 2, Megacorp, having successfully preventing the
transmittal >of the message, substitutes a message of their own, telling a
tale of woe about the >smaller company, causing the company's stock to
plummet to the point where they would >not be able to finance the new
product's manufacture, allowing Megacorp to buy the >company for pennies on
the dollar, and then manufacture the product itself...

Scenario number 4:  Purchasers of New Company's stock during the time of
Scenarios 2 and 3 institute a class action securities fraud lawsuit against
Megacorp.  Wily plaintiffs' lawyers find the PCs and offer MCr and passage
incognito to the other side of the Imperium for holorecorded (or otherwise
admissible) statements detailing Megacorp's scheme.  If PCs don't cooperate,
plaintiffs' lawyers will have no choice but to turn them over to the
Securities and Exchange Division of the Imperial Ministry of Finance for
interrogation, detainment, criminal trial, and lengthy incarceration.

Scenario number 5:  Megacorp's allies in the Moot have previously "reformed"
securities fraud class actions out of existence.  A purchaser of New
Company's stock, distraught over the loss of life savings, spouse, home,
etc., pulls a Taxi Driver, but can't get into the home or office of
Megacorp's CEO.  He finds out about the PCs, however, and (a) starts
stalking them or (b) hires them to get him inside for revenge (as
quasi-insiders they have some access, and we've already demonstrated their
amorality).  Again, if PCs don't cooperate, Taxi Driver will turn them over
to plaintiffs' lawyers -- er, the SED.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:16:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Legal Systems

>From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)

>Most British common law-based systems depend heavily on precident, but a
>French friend tells me that the Code Napoleon does not depend on precident to
>the same extent (it's used as a guideline, but not actual case law, or
>something like that).
 
Common law systems  (U.K., U.S.A., Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and
possibly some others (Jamaica, maybe)) and civil law systems (basically all
the rest of the world) give different weights to the sources of law.  Common
law systems recognize two primary sources of law:  judicial decisions which
set forth customs and practices of the society, and legislative (and
executive) enactments.  Civil law systems recognize enactments of the
legislative and executive branches of government, but basically don't allow
judges to establish law.

These basic differences give rise to some other important distinctions.  In
common law systems, judges review statutes to see if they are lawful; this
may or not be the case in civil law systems.  In common law systems,
statutes or other enactments are drafted rather broadly, and are interpreted
by the courts over time (i.e., a judicial gloss is put on the plain text).
In civil law systems, enactments are long and specific, and attempt to cover
every possible situation.  In general, civil law systems don't pay attention
to judicial gloss on statutes, and each court construes the statute as it
sees fit.

There are cultural differences, too.  In common law countries, judges are
clearly part of the society's elite:  They are of advanced age; they often
serve for life (U.S. federal judges, e.g.); they are mostly members of the
dominant race, ethnic group, social class, and gender; they are highly paid;
they are in the last job of their legal careers.  In civil law countries, by
contrast, judges are not so clearly part of the elite.  For example, in most
civil law countries "judge" is one of the entry-level legal positions.  A
new judge might eventually become a senior judge, or move on to other
governmental work or the private sector.  

I hope that those comments are of some help to refereeing Traveller.  I
recommend Charles Rembar, The Law of the Land, for a good discussion of what
precedent means in the common law system.

>Scottish law has a nice verdict: "not proven", giving a judge/jury a third
option >between "guilty" and "not guilty".

It's mealy-mouthed, cowardly crap, that defames but fails to condemn.  I'm
glad that jurors here have to make up their minds.

>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>


>There are a few states in the US (Gulf South mostly, Louisiana in 

It's only Louisiana, as far as I know.

>> Scottish law has a nice verdict: "not proven", giving a judge/jury a third

>I wonder if this would be somewhat akin to "no contest", a 3rd plea in some
states 

It's at the opposite end of the process -- verdict as opposed to plea -- but
is a similar concept.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 22 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 139

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #133
         2. Engineers!
         3. Re: Death in character generation
         4. Trading Question/Poll
         5. Re: One list to bind them all....
         6. Re: Death in character generation
         7. And in the darkness bind them...
         8. Re: Unsubscribe Traveller Digest...
         9. Railguns?
        10. Re: Trading Question/Poll
        11. Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)
        12. Re: MAVs?
        13. Re: PDF
        14. Re: Asteroid Monitors
        15. Re: RFD: Reunification of the Lists
        16. Re: Trading Question/Poll
        17. Re: explosive decompression...not
        18. Re: Explosive decompression
        19. Re: law level & stuff

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jmg141@psu.edu (John M. Gardner)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:21:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #133

I end up always playing an engineer
'cause the rest have taken the more 'lucrative' posts.

But you can create some great gadgets to prevent a pirate
takeover :)

One of my players would agree with you there.  He's the guy who figured out
how to mess up those pirates in the boarding party by selectively leaving
areas of the ship pressureized (and filled with all sorts of sharp and
properly positioned objects).  Just teather the crew in place, wait until
the stuff stops flying, and then fire at will.  I guess that's the problem
with having former military folks on the payrole.  <G>

BTW, in my game the pirates usualy execute anybody onboard who even looks
like they might have any sort of repair skill before leaving . . . you use
less ammo, and still leave no witnesses (after the air runs out).'

The problem I usualy have with the engineer folks getting on the crew it the
personality distribution among my players.  about 50% want to be ex-navy
traders or something onboard ship, the rest want to be
FORMER-marine-mercenary types.  (Ok guys, i guess its another active duty
naval campaign.  where's the jar-heads anyway?  Who ya callin jar head,
Squid?)  

- --John

*     "a chicken is just an egg's way of making new eggs."
                          --- unknown

*      "any society which is willing to surrender essential liberties to
gain security shall likely have neither"
                        --- Benjamin Franklin


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 02:00:08 -0600
Subject: Engineers!

On 06/21/96 at 03:19 PM,  Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> said:

>On the other hand, this one ship is the whole world for this little
>company (or individual).  I would not be surprised to see a skilled
>and knowledgeable(sp) engineer on the ship because the very life of
>the owner depends on the maintenance of the ship.  A single engineer
>is not a problem or issue.  I think any jump capeable ship will have
>at least (minimal) a crew of three: Pilot, Astrogator(navigator), and
>Engineer.  Add passengers and you'l need a Steward.  In system craft
>under 200 tons could probably get by with a crew of two: Pilot and
>Engineer.

Yes! <g>

A small tramp freighter might get by with a couple of folks with
engineering/technical skills, and nobody with the *title* Engineer,
but the skills *have* to be covered.  If I were the owner/operator,
I'd skimp on something else before I skimped on having a qualified
Engineer in my crew.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:08:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Death in character generation

On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

[Snipped - stuff about wishing T4 would have survival rolls]

> No -- I loved it, too!  I'll probably add it back in.

Add me to the list of people who enjoy the survival throw idea.

> >To me, this was the risk you took in trying to come up with a pumped-up
> "Super >Character." The time alone you'd spend creating your character meant
> that you didn't >want to take that one last crap shoot and risk losing your
> beloved creation.
> 
> I loved it for exactly the same reason -- trading risks for benefits is one
> of the most important, pervasive, frightening, and exhilarating facts of
> life, and a game that simulates life should strive to capture it, even in
> character generation.

It'd be nice if they at least put it in there as an option.  But, if 
worst comes to worst, we can hack out our own rule, share it on some web 
sites, and at least give people with internet access an alternative...

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 22 Jun 1996 10:27:50 GMT
Subject: Trading Question/Poll

Just a quick question/poll as to preferences:

I was looking at my trading system, which currently has all prices on a per
cubic metre basis, and wondered if it would be easier if prices were given
per lot instead?  (Or even, gasp, per displacement ton, although I've always
found that concept confusing - you know, tonne mass, displacement ton
volume...)

Anyway, what do people think?  Prices based on volume would make comparisons
between different cargos easier, prices based on lots would make calculations
for a particular cargo easier.

And should I go with cubic metres or displacement tons as the base unit of
volume?  A big advantage of kL is that it allows smaller cargos without
fractions.

As soon as I decide this I will post the completed trading system.

------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (Derek Stanley)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:20:34 -0700
Subject: Re: One list to bind them all....

>Surely the people on this list can stand seeing the occasional post they're
>not interested.

I can handle reading other threads and stop calling me Shirly.  8)

Sorry

DS


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (Derek Stanley)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:28:55 -0700
Subject: Re: Death in character generation

>>From: muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (John Kovalic)

>No -- I loved it, too!  I'll probably add it back in.

If the new system follows the TNE generation method character will roll a
d10 vs the current generation term.  If they roll equal to or less than that
number they automatically precipitate out into the game.  Saves you from
building a super character in theory, unless you're really lucky, and it
saves you from having to roll up ten characters before you get one that
lives.  This happened to me I was rolling up a character for a game and
everytime on my third or forth term the guy died.  It was terrible, like the
gods of dice were trying to tell me something.  Ten characters in a row. 

8P

DS


------------------------------

From: "Nacht" <nacht@neosoft.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:40:34 -0500
Subject: And in the darkness bind them...

> From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:35:53 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Automatic subject header
[snip]

This would be great!

> [TRAVELLER] Automatic subject header
> 
> This would be extremely useful in filtering mail through an automatic
> program, but I'm not sure\don't think it's possible.  Can anyone fill me in?

Here, here.  Failing this, re-unification is not such a bad thing, y'all...  Look
Germany hasn't started WWIII in Bosnia-Herzogovinia, yet...  ;-)
- -- 
David Reed
<nacht@neosoft.com>
PGP Public Key Available To Nice People

Murphy's Law
"To err is human...
but to really f*&$ things up
requires the root password..."

------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:57:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe Traveller Digest...

At 08:23 AM 6/18/96 -0800, you wrote:
>Sorry to post this to the list, but I forgot your address.  Majordomo 
>is not responding to my command on this, so could you please 
>unsubscribe me from traveller-digest (please leave me subscribed to 
>traveller mail though).

Your registered address for digest was:  sdollar@goody.goodnet.com

I took care of it.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:00:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Railguns?

Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> said:

:Hi all.  Have railguns been covered already as a defence against the
:infamous boulder attack?  I was around for the last rock-dropping thread,
:but haven't been paying that much attention to the latest one (how many
:have their been?  How far back does this go?).  If no-one's
:covered it, let me take a shot.

   Damn it, you beat me to the punch! I've been playing with some railgun
   numbers for the past couple of days (along with DMS sites, but I
   digress...)

:Here's my idea:  You put a network of railguns around your world about
:100000 km out, and make the network dense enough that there's no more than
:10000 km between any two railguns.  If you assume a rock coming in at .1 C
:and a detection distance of one light second (this is based on Grand
:Survey's assertion that desitometers can detect any size of spaceship at
:500000 km), that gives you ten seconds to get something in front of the
:rock that will vaporize it on impact.  The rock's own velocity will
:provide most of the needed KE, so the main thing to do is get something in
:front of the rock.  You need to do this in 10 seconds and the max distance
:to cover is 5000 km.  You therefore need to launch a projectile at 500
:km/second.  Here's a diagram.  Each character represents about 10000 km.

   Two problems I see:

   1) Too little. A simple railgun slug of small diameter isn't enough -
      you'll frag the rock, and that'll make things worse. You have to
      have a big enough slug to totally vapourize *all* of the rock.

   2) Too close. You don't want a multi-gigaton warhead going off
      "next door".  Even if the blast does nothing, you *will* have
      widespread radiation problems. PEMS should be good for farther
      than 500,000km; this puppy is HOT from collisions with particles
      at 0.1c...

:How feasible is this?  Is the 500 km/s figure implausible?  Could rocks
:go faster than .1 C?  Sorry if all this has been covered recently...

   Not possible under FF&S rules - a TL15 railgun firing slugs, much like
   a cannon, has an MV of 10km/sec.

   I have an alternate solution; the railgun fires a _missile_ which then
   uses the initial boost to get a "leg up".  (Even better - salvo these
   puppies to guarantee a "kill".)

Fusion anti-rock missile, TL 15, MCr 10.6, 100m3, 44.2t
Warhead: KE canister submunitions (10t)
Smart Seeker, IR
Thruster: Fusion rocket 6.425g (285 g-turns)(delta-V = 5027.4 km/sec, 22hrs)
Dimensions: 3.57m(dia) x 10m(length)

Energy requirements to launch missile @10km/sec, according to FF&S:
0.0000005*44200*10000^2*1.6= ~352000MW
(yikes! Maybe we should just fire these...)


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:05:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Trading Question/Poll

On 22 Jun 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> Just a quick question/poll as to preferences:
> 
> I was looking at my trading system, which currently has all prices on a per
> cubic metre basis, and wondered if it would be easier if prices were given
> per lot instead?  (Or even, gasp, per displacement ton, although I've always
> found that concept confusing - you know, tonne mass, displacement ton
> volume...)

   Lots, with m3/kl as the basic unit of volume.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:15:36 -0600
Subject: Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)

At 03:20 pm 6/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 11:16 AM 6/21/96 -0800, Stu wrote:
>>Maybe we ought to work on a better set of trade and cargo rules...
>>
>>If somebody wants to throw some ideas my way, I'd be happy to put 
>>something in writing...  I have my own ideas, but let me know what 
>>somebody else might want...
>
>Thats a good idea except for:
>
>a) Its probably too late, but it might make a supplement or JTAS article.
>
>b) We haven't been asked to input on that yet :-)

        Why wait? We weren't exactly "asked to input" on the ship design
sequence, we were told it was going to be HG. After quite a few people gave
IG their Cr0.02 worth, they came back and asked us to continue to input
under certain ground rules. I think it would make a great JTAS article or
supplement, as I've never liked the trade rules either.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:15:38 -0600
Subject: Re: MAVs?

At 01:34 pm 6/20/96 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>:I don't want to think about the possibilities if the planet had a battallion
>>:of Intrepids for MAV fire support.  We're talking total carnage.
>>
>>   Hmm, what's a MAV? (I don't have *any* regency source material, I'm an RC
>>addict)
>
>MAV is an acronym used by the former Imperium for a particular type of vehical.
>Meson Artillery Vehicle.  This TL15 bad boy has a short range of 3,000 km
>inflicting 129 points of damage on whatever it hits.  The armor is pretty
>horrendus by Armored vehicle standards but who cares you park it 500 km away
>from the action and use it for fire support.  At 3000 km it's capable of
>hitting anything in orbit from the ground.

        3,000km isn't exactly "anything in orbit" ... try to hit my Milstar
commsat at 38,400km (geosynchronous). Since starship weapons are rating in
increments of 30,000km, even a 1hex weapon would be able to plaster you
without ever being exposed.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:15:43 -0600
Subject: Re: PDF

At 08:38 pm 6/20/96 -0400, Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
wrote:
>
>On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Christopher Sean Hilton wrote:
>> 
>> This is a terrible amount of power for player characters to have but _it 
>> could not be avoided_ without resorting to Bugs Bunny physics. I kept the 
>> rule in place and let the players know that these antics would not be 
>> allowed by frequent encounters with Close escorts and such.
>
>   Do you want a copy of my PDF file when I'm finished playing with the
>idea? Ship designs, operations outlines, attitudes, frequency of
>encounter, Port Authority procedures, etc...

        YES! Tho' maybe something other than PDF?
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:15:46 -0600
Subject: Re: Asteroid Monitors

At 10:36 pm 6/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>    Are there any rules for making asteroid ships (monitors) under
>    FF&S rules or variants? I've been getting some ideas that use
>    this concept originated in HG, but I can't find anything in my
>    copy of the rules.
>
>    I'm mainly interested in the effects on armour and structural
>    integrity, damage rules, etc as they already mention tunneling
>    costs under the section on deep sites.

        Not yet ... somehow they got dropped from MT to TNE. That's one of
the things we'd like to put back into FF&S2.

        BTW, we'll probably have a LOT more time to properly hash out FF&S2
... Don's talking about a due date in 6-8 months instead of 1 week.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:15:41 -0600
Subject: Re: RFD: Reunification of the Lists

        I vote "Aye"
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:20:48 -0600
Subject: Re: Trading Question/Poll

At 12:05 pm 6/22/96 -0400, Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
wrote:
>
>On 22 Jun 1996, Rob Prior wrote:
>
>> Just a quick question/poll as to preferences:
>> 
>> I was looking at my trading system, which currently has all prices on a per
>> cubic metre basis, and wondered if it would be easier if prices were given
>> per lot instead?  (Or even, gasp, per displacement ton, although I've always
>> found that concept confusing - you know, tonne mass, displacement ton
>> volume...)
>
>   Lots, with m3/kl as the basic unit of volume.

        Ditto me on this ... I've grown to detest displacement tons, and if
"I Were Marc Miller" I'd drop them entirely.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 00:13:36 PST
Subject: Re: explosive decompression...not

"Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU> writes:

> > Or what about a free trader being holed while refueling in the 
> > atmosphere of a gas giant.
> 
> 	Uhhh...besides all the crew dying as they're crushed by the 
> sudden increase in pressure, or suffocate from trying to breath a mixture of 
> or helium, or smashing against the bulkheads as the ship careens out 
> of control, or, simply fallling (for a loooooong time) as the ship 
> breaks up from the suddenly unstable airframe? (I picture something 
> like this looking sort of like that crash in the beginning of the 
> Six-Million Dollar Man, only worse... ) 

They'll be going thru some *very* thin "air". More likely, the suction
created by the airstream flowing *across* the hole is going to try
sucking them out.

> 	In truth, I don't know, as I've never seen an accurate description 
> of exactly HOW a ship skimming fuel works...unless you have scoops 
> that cover most of the surface of your ship, you've got to go pretty 
> deep in the atmosphere to reach the densities required; you've got to 
> cram a whole lot of hydrogen in through some relatively small holes 
> in a short period of time...avoiding storms, and clouds of extraneous 
> material, etc. etc.

Remember, you can trade velocity for density. The faster you move, the
higher the *apparent* density is. So zipping thru the thin air at 50
km/s or more you'll get a *lot* of flow. 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 00:17:30 PST
Subject: Re: Explosive decompression

jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) writes:

> I believe that at about 1,000 km beneath the cloud tops, a gas giant's
> atmosphere reverts to a liquid state.  This would be in the neighbourhood of
> about 3,000,000 ATMs (squish)!  Talking about ruining your day....

It turns liquid at pressures a *lot* lower than that. 

1 Atm. = 1 Bar. At 100 kbar, you have things like water turning solid,
and even hydrogen turns solid at around 1 Mbar.

But those pressures are a lot more than 1000 km down.  

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 02:54:03 PST
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> You've never seen such an impressive display of fire works, and we didn't 
> make most of them, we were just bugging out of the crash site when the 
> insurgents came upon it.  Never overestimate the slowing power of booby 
> traps.  It's amazing how quickly a persuing force slows down when they 
> find one booby trap.  Hell half a spool of det cord and some demo tape 
> work just a well, it's all psychology.

I seem to recall an adventure where an unco-operative "bad guy" got
left for his friends to find. He was tied up, gagged, and then someone
cheerfully stuffed a grenade under him and pulled the pin. 

As I understand it, he did a *lot* of squawking thru the gag when his
buddies started to pick him up. Of course, being "good guys" the
grenade didn't have a charge, just a bit of fusing. So it went "bang",
not "boom". 

I don't remember if anybody died from heart failure. But I'm sure they
all needed a change of underwear. 

Booby traps are an *art*. The best ones are set up so that they are
simple enough to get the average person, but also so that if a truly
suspicious type examines them, he'll be able to figure out (with
difficulty) how to disarm them. Only to have the "backup" kill him.
After all, you *really* want to take out the "smart" ones.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #139
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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 22 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 140

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #117
         2. Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters & Planet Killers (oh my!)
         3. Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)
         4. Re: [T96#117] Imperial Heraldry
         5. Re: More Rocks & Thrusters
         6. Re: Trin's Veil as Asteroid Defense.
         7. Re: law level & stuff
         8. Re: Fuel skimming
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #121
        10. Re: Railguns as a Defense against Boulders.
        11. Re: PDF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 05:51:43 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #117

dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley) writes:

> Some of the Players I know has specially designed drawers placed beneath
> their bunks with cut out foam inlays for all their weapons.  8)  Lets see
> the shotgun goes here, the smg goes here, the grenade launcher...  Hey!  Who
> the Hell's been touching my grenade launcher?!?  Come on!! Who??

Hey, I have *friends* that are like that in real life! 

The .357 goes *here*, the shotgun goes there, the SKS goes *there*,
the .22 goes over there, etc.

And the gunsmith/gun collector I know is really a trip. You check for
guns and knives before sitting down. And you *never* assume that a
weapon is unloaded unless it is disassembled! 

I've had to make a point of asking "Is this a live grenade or one of
the practice grenades?". Then there's the 155mm round he uses as a
paper weight....

> >In my very early days as a Traveller referee, I had a guy who tended 
> >to think that NPC's were put on Earth for 1 reason, and 1 reason 
> >only...  Target Practice...
> 
> Yep, know the type well.  I on the other hand tend to think this is a bad
> thing.  As generally there's way more of them than you.  I mean there's no
> such thing as a completely squemish PC, but lets face it every drop of blood
> you spill while trying to accomplish your mission lowers the value of
> whatever it is you're trying to accomplish exponentially.

A *very* relevant quote:

"Friends come and go, enemies accumulate."

Keep killing people and you will soon have *far* too many enemies. :-)


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 03:58:29 PST
Subject: Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters & Planet Killers (oh my!)

Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com> writes:

> On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> > Since I don't have a copy of FF&S, I'm dropping back to the "old"
> > theoretical figures for a fusion rocket. That's an Isp of roughly
> > 600,000. (exhaust velocity = 5.88e6 m/s)
> > 
> > 
> > And it *is* going to burn a hole. The kinetic energy of the jet is
> > 86e12 W or 86 terawatts.  But as I noted above, it's *very*
> > concentrated. It'll go thru rock like an acetylene torch thru
> > styrofoam.
> > 
> > So if you want to "torch" a city, you are going to have to *hover* on
> > your exhaust, and then walk it back and forth across the city. 
> > 
> > Me, I'd have some cheap heat seeker missiles armored to withstand the
> > drive flame for long enough to explode inside the drive. There's *no*
> > way you are going to avoid that. Or survive it.
> > 
> 
> Thanks for the impulse figures, they make it much easier to figure out 
> what the effects of these drives is going to be. I wouldn't want to 
> release 86 TeraWatts of heat energy into the biosphere of a planet as a 
> regular part of day-to-day business though. That kind of heat would be 
> very difficult to remove.

Not really. As a cross-check, the S-1 stage of the Saturn-V was about
1.4 Terawatts. That's not anything you want to be *close* to, but it's
hardly a major disaster.

Figure that the starport has landing "pits" about a km apart. With a
decent water deluge system, you get little damage to the pit. If water
is in short supply, then you just shovel in sand and when the ship
lifts and things have cooled down, you dig out the slag, and replace it
with more sand.

For human scale activity, terawatts are big. For natural activities,
they are *peanuts*. For example, the sunlight on a 400 km square of
land is around 120 terawatts. 

It's also possible (though a bit tricky) to set things up to radiate
excess heat into space. Or you can just locate the starport someplace
where the climate could use a bit of extra heat (or in someplace like
the Sahara, where nobody will *notice* the extra heat!)

Ports will tend to be set *away* from cities, for much the same reason
that airports are. Noise and hazard. You may also note that in places
that have the freedom to do so, even *seaport* docking facilities are
stuck in the industrial areas, or the outskirts of town. Especially for
things like LNG tankers (liquified natural gas, every one of these
tankers is the equivalent of a small nuke, just waiting for an excuse).

There'll be lots of transit facilities, as well as the "star town"
around the port. But areas near the port will definitely be the "low
rent district". All that noise and glare at all hour of the day and
night. 

BTW, I'm a believer in the idea that "bulk" cargoes are almost *never*
sent between worlds, simply because it's usually much cheaper to supply
the requirements for such things locally.

That still allows for it happening in special circumstances. After all,
during the California Gold Rush they were shipping *laundry* fron
California to Honolulu and back by clipper! 

Systems with asteroid belts will be able to "mine" things much cheaper
than systems without. So that gives *some* bulk cargoes of metals and
the like. 

Some minerals (even semiprecious stones, clear down to *marble*) are
worth shipping long distances. We ship marble from Italy all over the
world, and I seem to recall hearing the same of other "decorative"
stones. 

It's also possible for minerals to be relatively unique. Biological
materials could be *very* unique. At least until someone finds a way to
synthesize it cheaper. And there will always be folks who think
"natural is better".

*Some* kinds of foodstuffs will be shipped. For example, coffee and tea
varies considerably in flavor depending on where they were grown. Most
people don't care. The ones that can appreciate the differences are
willing to pay premium prices. So "Efate Gold Coast" coffee may be a
valuable export. 

Or there may be fruits/vegetables that don't grow well elsewhere, but
ship ok. There'll be a small be steady market for those. And there's
always art.

BTW, if you can find copies, try reading Andre Norton's "Solar Queen"
series. It's about the crew of a Free Trader (the Solar Queen). The
books I can recall are "Plague Ship" and "Postmarked the Stars". They
give some good ideas on what would keep traders going. Plague Ship has
a good bit about the way traders can get exclusive rights to a low tech
world, and make a somewhat decent living off of unique local products. 
Postmarked the Stars has them running into problems while earning a
living on a contracted mail run. 

In fact *most* of Norton's sf can be used as a source for ideas. She's
*definitely* one of the inspirations for Traveller. 

Hmmm... y'know, since she's at least *somewhat* "gaming friendly" (she
wrote book somewhat related to D&D, and has allowed some use of her
fantasy material), I wonder if she'd allow someone to put together a
work that was somewhere between a concordance and a sourcebook. She
uses a "similar" background in much of her SF, it's just that not all
the stories *can* exist in the same background. :-)




Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 03:03:32 PST
Subject: Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> You know if you sit and look at it one DT is really not all that big, 
> comparatively.  A suburban is pretty close to two tons, but an airraft 
> comes in at three, this seems inordinatly large, espically when a grav 
> bike comes in at .5 a DT, that's 7 cubic meters for a motorcycle.  I 
> think what the problem is, is that a number of the internal components 
> are to large and this has created slightly oversized vehicals

Unless you are riding a "toy" motorcycle, you are talking about an
object 5 feet long, about 4 feet high, and a foot or more thick.

That works out to about 600 liters, or .6 Td.



Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 06:04:57 PST
Subject: Re: [T96#117] Imperial Heraldry

jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN) writes:

>  ::>Or, roughly translated into herald:
>  ::>"Argent, a pale gules. A sunbrust, crescent and star of six points fesswi
>  ::>counterchanged, a cheif or."
> 
>  This is much nicer development of the concept, Jo.  It would never
>  pass Laurel (and you know _exactly_ what I'm talking about :)),
>  though; ever hear of a slot machine?

Yes, but "real world" heraldry has things that make "slot machine
heraldry" seem trivial. Ever see the *real* arms that have a charge of
"a locomotive rampant"?

> T::>>On a stary backdrop, a pale moon (light from above and behind
>  ::>>viewer) with blue letters D&D in "3-D" extending from a point at the top
>  ::>>the moon to the center of the moon.
>  ::>Translation:
>  ::>Sable a semi of stars, a crescent argent, chared with D&D azure.
>  ::>[All this 3D stuff is artistic lisence :-]
> 
>  Also unlikely to appear in Terran heraldry, as the use of letters
>  is vanishingly rare at best.

Actually, it's fairly common in some parts of Eastern Europe. We've got
someone doing research on it for a Czech persona.

>  ::>of "open questions" for strict heraldic interpreation. For example what
>  ::>colour is an "asteroid proper"?
> 
>  Would something like that ever be blazoned "proper"?  That's kind
>  of like "a cow proper", or "a rooster proper" - there are just too
>  many variations on the natural coloring for "proper" to be
>  meaningful.

Actually, it would appear that "proper" for an asteroid varies from
gray to dark grey. Or so say all available measurements. And that "dark
grey" can be a damn close approach to "sable".

> T::>I'll leave you with the arms of "The Drachenwald Space Lancers":
> 
> T::>A gold shield, Three red rocketships in the middle with a black
>  ::>dragon on top of them, one claw raised, tail curved between the
>  ::>legs and back out again. Two black comets curved around
>  ::>each side.
> 
>  Giveaway, Jo - who are you, really?  (Incidentally, that makes
>  _three_ publicly acknowledged SCA members on this list - you,
>  me, and Paul.  Is it time for another debate on the nature of a
>  Feudal Technocracy?)

Four, but who's counting. Erik inn kengr, Exchequer of the Shire of
Dragon's Mist, at your service (proposed arms: Argent, a base wavy
azure, in cheif a natural dolphin bowed, azure) (forgiven the
slaughtered terminology).


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 03:36:02 PST
Subject: Re: More Rocks & Thrusters

Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> writes:

> On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > The pulse is gonna be *damn* weak at 1000 AU! And you aren't going to
> > get much parallax on it. So is it a small ship emerging 1000 AU out, a
> > big ship a lot farther out, a *huge* ship a parsec out? Or maybe just a
> > supernova in another part of the galaxy.
> 
>    The point is, they'd get a clue something's up. Vector a ship in the
> Right Direction, Point a sensor In The Right Direction.

But "the right direction" is gonna be a bit vague. Also, given the
inverse square law, emergences at normal ranges are going to swamp the
signal. 

>    Leonard, I'm disspointed in you.
> 
>    You're a ship Captain, you've just got word from PD that a frac-cee
> weapon is on it's way. You are in a position to *intercept* the course of
> the rock, your FAMILY is on the planet, your HOME TOWN is on the planet.
> Do I have to get any clearer than that?? <g>
> 
>    I calculate the impact energy at about 1.8e21 J - should be enough to
> vape the rock. (Assuming 6G and a 400td [4000mt] PC) 

Unless I have a bb gun with a short range radar mounted on the rock. :-)

>    I imagine the crew would offload before heading out, leaving a skeleton
> volunteer crew to leave on the Cutter/Pinnace/LB after they're close
> enough to guarantee a hit.

Nope. It has to be a suicide run. The target is about the size of a
football field. And moving at several percent of c relative to the
interceptor. By the time you get close enough to be relatively sure of
hitting it, it's too late to get out of range of the blast.

Also, if one wanted to get *real* nasty, note that graphite covered
steel spheres survived unharmed at a range of a meter or two from a
nuclear explosion. 

It's not that hard to create a nickel iron sphere and coat it with
graphite. Basicly, you use power from the ship to *melt* it, and let it
cool slowly (to avoid stress cracks). Then vapor deposit a layer of
graphite an inch or so thick.

In fact, this is *easier* than grappling the "rock". You can melt it
with magnetic fields, and capture the gases that boil off. And then use
the fields to tow it to speed. This way you don't have to neutralize
the rocks spin (which can require an amazing amount of power!)

Release a "cloud" of sand and "BBs" around it before you cut it loose,
and you've just made it a *lot* harder to kill.

The mag field gear is probably standard on prospecting ships.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 06:20:26 PST
Subject: Re: Trin's Veil as Asteroid Defense.

Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> writes:

> A) You'd end up with a whole bunch of little rocks, just about as
> destructive.
> _________
> 
> Are you sure about that?  Would the rock not be vaporized?  If the rock
> gets busted up small enough, the smaller particles would tend to burn up
> in the atmosphere more easily (more total surface area)

This means you get *more* heat into the atmosphere. That's *bad*.

> and deflect off
> the atmosphere (less individual momentum) more readily.

Deflection only happens at *very* shallow angles.

> Also, if they are
> small enough, the damage would be significantly less due to lack of holes
> in the planetary crust and other nasty effects of a single big impact. 
> Generally speaking, it is always better to spread out an impact then
> absorb it in one spot.  If the shell is at 50000 km (.16 ls) from the
> world, and the peices of the busted rock fly outwards at 5000 m/s (not
> sure this is a realistic figure, just kinda made it up.), then the peices
> of a rock moving at .1 C would spread out in a circle about 8 km in
> radius.  If this is not enough to lessen the effects of impact, you 
> simply have to move the shell out more. 

Impacts have several sorts of effect:

1. shockwave from atmospheric transit
2. actual impact
3. blast effects from impact
4. plasma (fireball) effects
5. earthquakes/tidal waves
6. heat radiated from impact site
7. heat transfered to atmosphere
8. particulates added to atmosphere

Shockwave damage gets *worse* until the pieces get rather small. That's
because the effective area hitting the atmosphere is increased.

Impact effects depend on mass and speed. So they stay the same, just
spread a bit.

Blast effects depend on a cube root of power function. So if you break
the rock into 10 smaller pieces, you get *more* damage, because things
like blast *energy* will be 1/10th the size, but crater size and blast
overpressures depend on the cube root of the energy. So instead of one
crater of radius X with a damage radius of Y, you get 10 craters of
radius .46X and damage radius .46Y. Which means you've more than
doubled the *area* affected!

Fireball size depends on energy, and is a volume effect. So it works a
lot like blast effects.

Earthquakes and tidal waves will be pretty much a wash, as they depend
on impact energy.

Heat radiates faster from several smaller craters. This can be good if
it radiates into space, or bad if it gets trapped in the atmosphere.
Which brings us to an important question. Was the impact on land or
ocean? 

Land impacts create a crater and a fireball. If big enough, the
fireball can't rise, it just sits on the crater radiating energy into
space. Once the fireball is gone, the crater radiates heat into space,
unless there's lots of cloudcover (which the heat tends to disperse. If
it was big enough to punch through the crust, you get lava flows as
well. The crater will take *months* to cool unless it's quite small
(Meteor Crater size or smaller). There will be a lot of rock dust
scattered around.

A sea strike is a lot different. The impact creates quite a tidal wave,
and bares the seafloor for a fair distance around the crater. But in a
matter of *minutes* the water returns. A wall of water rushes in on the
crater, and instantly flashes into superheated steam. This invisible
cylinder of steam will rise into the stratosphere before spreading. And
in the process, it'll carry not only all the salt and whatnot that was
in the water, but most of the sediment from the seabottom, and rock
dust from the crater (as well as more dust created by the sudden
cooling of the rock). The crater floor (and any lava) is *hot*. But the
ocean is going to win unless it's a *very* small ocean.

So inch by inch the water is going to advance, until in a matter of
*hours* the heat from the crater has been used to vaporize cubic miles
of water, and carry gigatons of dust into the upper atmosphere. This
*will* royally screw up the weather patterns. The extra heat and water
vapor will lead to cyclones (aka huricanes and typhoons) like nothing
seen before. And the dust will lead to cooling as the sunlight is blocked.

If the pieces are *very* small, they'll burn up. Which still heats the
atmosphere. If they are a bit bigger, they'll hit the ground and be so
spread out that they'll cool rapidly, via the rising of the fireball.
Either way, the heat winds up in the atmosphere, and will lead to more
water in the atmosphere shortly thereafter (which leads to cyclones).

If they pieces strike at sea, but aren't big enough to reach the
bottom, you'll still get all the water vapor, and heat into the
atmosphere, as well as a large fraction of the dust (from the rock
vaporizing, and the salts etc in the seawater).

If the rock was aimed for a land target, and was big enough to be more
than just a nuclear bomb equivalent, the *last* thing you want to do is
fragment it. You might get some sea strikes. 

If it was aimed for an ocean, you are pretty much screwed unless you
can make most of it *miss* the planet.

> It all depends how much energy is being put into the rock when it hits a
> particle in the shell and whether that's enough to really pulverized it. 
> As I mentioned, if the 1 gram particles are not enough to do this, then 10
> gram particles can be used (or 100 grams, whatever). 
> 
> You could even make two layers of shell: one to bust the rock into peices
> and another to bust the peices into in dust.  You would seperate the
> shells somewhat so that the peices had time to spread out and each hit
> their own individual "inner shell" particle.  This is all off the top of 
> my head, so trash away! :-)

Remember, unless whatever you hit the rock with has comparable
*momentum*, the mess that results from the impact is going to keep
moving in much the same direction! So your 100 kilo projectile
vaporizes the entire 10,000,000,000 kilo rock. Ok, that means that you
hit it with something with 1/100,000,000th the mass. So unless it was
going 100,000,000 times as fast in the opposite direction, the
resulting cloud of vapor keeps moving towards you. Just a bit slower. 

If it's a 7% of c rock, then you've just turned it into the mother of
all cosmic ray showers. It'll hit the upper atmosphere like the EMP to
end all EMP, and raise the temp considerably. Plus it'll be equivalent
to this truly unreal amount of radiation on that side of the planet.
(treat every atom as a 7% of c heavy ion cosmic ray impact). You could
wind up with lethal radiation doses over an entire hemisphere *plus*
firestorms from the "flash" when it hit atmosphere.

I'll have to try working out some figures for likely expansion rates,
and seeing what happens at different intercept distances.

> __________
> B) You'd create your own navigational hazard with all that stuff floating
> around your world.
> __________
> 
> As I mentioned, there are ways around this.  The satelite network which 
> creates gates in the shell can also keep it in place so that it would 
> have clearly defined boundaries.  In any case,  demanding that ships 
> near your planet move in a certain manner so as to avoid damaging impacts 
> with the particles is not a big imposition (one would expect this as a 
> matter of course in space traffic control to prevent disastrous crashes onto 
> the planet surface anyway, I would think).

Ah! You are trying to have a "planetary sandcaster" type defense. For
big slow rocks, it won't deflect them noticeably, nor will it break
them up (you'd need *huge* amounts of material to create such a shell!)

For fractional c rocks, it's too close. At best, you'd just turn the
rock into a plasma jet aimed at the planet. That means more energy
expended on the surface and atmosphere, less on deep rock layers. Not
good. 


A tip. Work out how big a "dangerous" rock has to be at say, 1% of c.
Then figure out how big a rock at 1% of c it'll take to destroy such a
rock. Let's say the results come out to be 100 meters across, and 100
grams.

That means that your defense shell must have a 100 gram object for
every 100 square meters of area to be defended.

Ignoring the difference in area between ground and high orbit, let's
work that out for an 8000 mile dia planet. Call it 6500 km radius. 
Area is 2 pi r^2. That's 2.6e14 sq meters. which means that there are
2.6e10 100 meter squares to be covered. That gives us 2.6e9 kg of shell
material. 

And this is ignoring the problem of arranging orbits so there aren't
gaps in coverage. At a guess, you probably need 2 to 3 times as many to
get proper coverage.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 03:16:13 PST
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> > 
> > On 19 Jun 96 at 20:45, Leonard Erickson spewed:
> 
> > > without getting stopped, the police tend to respond with things like
> > > APCs and light grav tanks.
> > 
> > Or worse yet, the guys they're attacking are also carrying FGMP's,
> > and wearing Battle Dress...
> 
> But aren't players who do this fun?  There's no real need to write 
> adventures, they just bury themselves with regularity.
> 
> Then they whine and moan about how much trouble they're in and how none 
> of it is their fault.  8)

Reminds me of the players in an *old* D&D campaign. They finally
figured out that the castle was built on top of something a *lot*
older, and that some features (these *thick* towers around it with the
hemispherical, impenetrable mirrors on top) were definitely "odd".

After some very equivocal responses to an attempt to ask the gods for
clues (vague answers with a strong "you *really* don't want to do this"
undertone), they decided to try blasting their way in. 

It sorta worked. Seems the ancient stuff was a mothballed defense
installation for some interstellar civilization that'd set it up
multiple thousands of years back. They managed to "wake up" the defense
computer. 

Guess who wins in a battle between 10-15th level wizards and a 100
gigawatt space defense laser? :-)


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:22:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Fuel skimming

Glenn writes:

> This doesn't answer your question about necessary depth to get fuel, but I
> think that the scene in 2010 when they use Jupiter's gravity to slingshot 
> out to Saturn (I think those planets) conveys what it's like to go through
> the outer edge of a GG atmosphere.

Critical misunderstanding, here:  They were aerobraking to *slow down* in 
order to go into orbit around Jupiter, then Io (Jupiter's innermost large 
moon).  Dipping into an atmosphere slows you down, making it rather 
useless for slingshot purposes, but great for shedding excess velocity if 
you want to stick around locally.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 03:09:27 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #121

Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> writes:

> >> BTW, I missed the beginning of this debate, how would said terrorist go
> >> about getting the "rock" headed in the right direction?
> >
> >   Basically, poke the nose of your ship into the asteroid, and light the
> >engines. ;-)
> 
> Has anyone figured out how much stress this would put on a typical hull
> structure to get the asteroid up to a sufficient speed?  I would think it
> would do a bit of damage to the hull moving that much mass.

Not really. We're talking about .16 m/s^2 acceleration here. That's
about a 60th of a g. And since you want to have some spare fuel on
hand, you'll probably pick a body that is at least partly icy. The ice
will make a good "cushion". 

Or you can build a "docking cradle" sort of arrangement out of girders
on a stony or nickel iron rock. After all, it doesn't need to take a
lot of side stress.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 07:49:44 PST
Subject: Re: Railguns as a Defense against Boulders.

Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> writes:

> Hi all.  Have railguns been covered already as a defence against the 
> infamous boulder attack?  I was around for the last rock-dropping thread, 
> but haven't been paying that much attention to the latest one (how many 
> have their been?  How far back does this go?).  If no-one's 
> covered it, let me take a shot.  
> 
> Here's my idea:  You put a network of railguns around your world about
> 100000 km out, and make the network dense enough that there's no more than
> 10000 km between any two railguns.  If you assume a rock coming in at .1 C
> and a detection distance of one light second (this is based on Grand
> Survey's assertion that desitometers can detect any size of spaceship at
> 500000 km), that gives you ten seconds to get something in front of the
> rock that will vaporize it on impact.

No, it gives you *nine* seconds. The rock gets detected 1 light second
out. It takes one second for the signal to get from the rock to the
sensor. At that point, the rock is .9 light seconds out (9 sec at .1c)

> The rock's own velocity will
> provide most of the needed KE, so the main thing to do is get something in
> front of the rock.  You need to do this in 10 seconds and the max distance
> to cover is 5000 km.  You therefore need to launch a projectile at 500
> km/second.

Making the 9 second adjustment give 555 5/9 km/sec. :-) That also
assumes that you *instantly* know that it's a target. Figure at *least*
one second to get the vector determined well enough to hit it. 

8 seconds makes it 625 km/s.

>  Here's a diagram.  Each character represents about 10000 km.
> 
> 								 /
> 		    		@  Railgun Satelite		/	
> 	~300000km    		| ~5000 km  			| World
> o------------------------------>*  				|
> Rock (30000 km/s)		Railgun Rounds (500 km/s)	\
> 								 \
> 
> How feasible is this?  Is the 500 km/s figure implausible?  Could rocks 
> go faster than .1 C?  Sorry if all this has been covered recently...

Even .1c is difficult to pull off. 

The main problems are these. 

1. If the rock gets vaporized (or broken up into smaller rocks) you
need to do so far enough out to let things spread ouut a *lot* before
they get to the planet. Otherwise you just distribute the damage a bit
more evenly on the planet.

2. You need *very* high accelerations on that railgun. At 1 million g,
it takes a bit over .06 seconds to reach 625 km/sec. And in that time
the projectile travels almost 20 km! There are distinct limits to the
acceleration you can use, because the projectiles can't hack it. 

3. power. It'll take almost 200 GJ per kilo to accelerate the
projectile to 625 km/s. And that's assuming *no* losses. 200 GJ in .06
seconds is 300 *terawatts*. 

4. accuracy. A .1c rock doesn't have to be big. Say it's 100 meters
across (10 is more likely! or even *one*). So, at 625 km/s, your
projectile will cross the width of the rock in 160 one-millionths of a
second. Which means you have to be able to control the firing time, and
angle to parts per million. Lotsa luck!


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:35:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: PDF

On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, David J. Golden wrote:
> >
> >   Do you want a copy of my PDF file when I'm finished playing with the
> >idea? Ship designs, operations outlines, attitudes, frequency of
> >encounter, Port Authority procedures, etc...
> 
>         YES! Tho' maybe something other than PDF?

   What did you have in mind? Something like the Coast Guard? Spaceways
Authority? Hmm...


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #140
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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 22 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 141

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. How's Your Imperium?
         2. Re: Starship Economics (Long)
         3. Re: Traveller New Era
         4. Re: Navigational Deflectors as a Limitation on Thruster Tech
         5. Re: TNE differences
         6. Re: Corps in space
         7. Virus and crew sizes and other stuff
         8. Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)
         9. Re: Securities fraud in space
        10. Re: Trading Question/Poll
        11. Re: How's Your Imperium?
        12. Re: TNE differences
        13. Fuel Skimming
        14. Re: PDF
        15. Re: TNE differences

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: scharlto@RTD.COM (Steve Charlton)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:38:01 -0700 (MST)
Subject: How's Your Imperium?

Having discovered the list is rife with SCA types (well, two or three 
anyway) I am forced to ask the following question:
How has this influenced the way you _run_ the Imperium.

I have a degree in history, focusing on the Roman and Byzantine eras.  Some 
of my players also have similar degrees, and have pointed out to me that I 
have (unconciously perhaps) run the Imperium very close to an Early Roman 
Empire sort of state.  When they have travelled into more Vilani-dominated 
areas, they have seen a very strong Byzantine influence.  The Zhodani 
Consulate has become very Persian, and the Vargr Extents have become a 
combination of celtic/gothic/vandal intertribal struggles and politics.  
Nonje of this was really a concious decision on my part; I just took GDW's 
cues and my own background and ran with it.  It has made me wonder if people 
with an SCA background are running their Imperium more like a traditional 
Feudal model and society.
Steven T. Charlton
I don't recall installing this 
"General Protection Fault" Screen Saver
scharlto@avalon.com (work)  scharlto@rtd.com (home)


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 08:42:36 PST
Subject: Re: Starship Economics (Long)

"Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> writes:

> whack at this point.  Try fitting Cr10,000,000 worth of computers 
> into 14 m^3, for example.  Heck, by the time the 57th century rolls 
> around, you probably wouldn't be able to put that much worth of 
> computers into the cargo hold of a free trader, at the rate computer 
> prices drop compared to power...

Ever see a Cray-1? It's about $10 million of computer in a package
that'll fit in in 14 m^3. As a matter of fact, the prices for
*high-end* "mainframe" type systems have stayed fairly constant. The
power goes up, but the prices stays about the same. So does the size.

Compare a IBM 360, A VAX, and a Cray. Then consider the monsters they
use for the sort of commercial applications we want no part of. Things
like airline reservation systems, where you have 10,000 terminals
accessing the same *huge* database, simultaneously.

See, the important part is *not* that power/price drops. It's that the
price for "max" performance in any given category tends to stay about
the same.

Also, just how many pentium chips can you pack into 14 m^3? :-)


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 08:57:10 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller New Era

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> > There are a lot more career choices than in MT, but since virtually
> > all the published material for TNE was designed with military/merc
> > style adventures in mind, it's hard to imagine why somebody would
> > want to play an entertainer or athlete in the game...
> 
> Actually an entertainer makes a great charater, you just have to figure 
> out something to do with the characters.  I took entertainer, agent (?) 
> and it made just a killer covert op working in the wilds.  Athlete, ya 
> what's the point...

Entertainer, that's easy. Look at any of a number of TV shows. The
Magician was the first to spring to mind.

As for athlete, consider Bill Cosby's first TV show, I Spy. He and his
partner were spies operating with a cover of a pair of tennis pros opn
the international circuit. 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 00:07:01 PST
Subject: Re: Navigational Deflectors as a Limitation on Thruster Tech

Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp> writes:

> >>Hmm. This brings up another point. Since Traveller starships have no magic 
> force fields, perhaps this is a reasonable way to limit reactionless 
> thrusters? Radiation poisoning could ruin your whole day, and it doesn't 
> take that much V to get a nasty sunburn from particle collisions.
> 
> How about lowering the tech level for repulsors used as navigational 
> deflectors, and requiring ships to have these in order to avoid damage from 
> micrometeor particles, etc. in space. 

There's a risk even at the low speeds found in planetary orbits. The
odds are low, but it's still possible to get hit by something large
enough to be inconvenient. Remember, two people in the US reported
damage from meteors hitting their property a year or two back. If
either had been a ship, it'd have ruined their whole day. :-)

> The power of your deflector would 
> impose a safe speed limit, and the designers of the game could control 
> deflector power levels to get the desired speed limits at each tech level. 
>  This might please those of us who want to reduce the great speeds possible 
> with thrusters.
> 
> Anyway, I think it's unrealistic that there is no mention of how fast one 
> can go without having to deal with these hazards, and no mention of what is 
> done to deal with them.

The problem is getting info regarding the density of objects of various
sizes. (ie  how many 1 mm objects are there in a given volume? How many
1 cm objects?, etc.)

If we can get the info, then we can try working up odds. 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:18:47 -0800
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On 21 Jun 96 at 20:01, Larry Hadley spewed:

> 
> "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> said:
> :Character Generation rules are radically different, as well as ship
> :design & combat (space & ground).  No good backwards compatibility either...
> 
>    I don't know if I'd go that far. The character system is still built
>    on a range of 1-15, and the skill granularity has changed but
>    characters can be converted. On the whole the character gen system
>    is an improvement because 1) It's easier on the ref to arbitrate

Nothing I hate more than being misunderstood, especially when I wrote 
in very plain language.  I said "Character Generation Rules are 
radically different...".  I did not say that the CT/MT system was better 
or worse than TNE.  I have my own opinions, but I left them out of this 
post as much as I could.  

CT & MT systems use a set of skills which are determined by random 
die roll, determines number of terms by chance, has attributes with 
different names than TNE.  The CT rules also limit the character to 1 
class.  Attributes are 2D.

By contrast, the TNE rules allow the character to switch classes 
between terms, and indeed characters are often better for having done so.  
Skills are picked by the player off the list.  There is no survival 
roll, and the character determines when their pre-adventuring career 
ends.  Very little luck other than attributes is present in the 
system.  Attributes are 2D-1. 

I'd say these are pretty different character generation 
systems...wouldn't you?

Since you interjected your opinions in your post here's mine.  Most 
of the extra character classes given in TNE are worthless, especially 
since just about the entire game's mililieu is built around Military 
adventures.  Just how useful is an athlete going to be in a Smash & 
Grab operation...  

I like an element of chance in the development of characters.  To me, 
a player being able to pick and choose the skills he/she has means 
that they are going to in all probability, play the same character, 
again and again in campaign after campaign, after they've selected 
what they consider to be the ideal mix of skills...  The only way to 
prevent this is by the referee arbitrarily preventing the character 
from generating the same character time after time.  Luck of the draw 
as in CT & MT prevents this situation from ever happening.  In my 
opinion, forcing the player to play different character types from 
campaign to campaign potentially can enhance the player's ability to 
really role play, as opposed to ROLL-play...

>    skills use, and 2) the available character classes actually have
>    a broader range than CT/MT with richer skill bases to choose from -
>    characters are no longer the 2D cutouts they used to be in CT.

Actually, the best character generation system in the world STILL 
creates 2D cutouts... 1D if you want to get down to it.  Only good players, 
led by good referees, can turn lists of skills and attributes into a 3D character...

>    Space Combat is somehwat Kludgy, but no matter what you do here
>    somebody is going to be unhappy. Make it complex and people scream,
>    make it simple and purists (like me) scream.

Wow... couldn't have said it better myself...

> 
> :All in all a drastic change in system.  More importantly to old line
> :players, there is a much bigger emphasis on military adventures...
> :2 sample adventures are included, both of which are very military
> :oriented, the character generation system even requires the players
> :to be given call signs.
> 
>    I agree the RC has a more military leaning (I haven't seen any
>    Regency stuff, so I can't comment there) but I can't see the two
>    adventures in the rulebook as being particularly militaristic.

The RC is a military background.  So little mention is made of the RC 
as an economic entity, even in Path of Tears, that the player has to 
take a wild guess.  GDW did NO design work on the economic system.  
The trade and commerce section was lifted virtually verbatim from the 
pages of MT Referees' Manual, which itself was basically Merchant 
Prince with a bit of chrome...

As for the Regency sourcebook, it was good (once you got past the font 
best viewed with electron microscope), but we'll never know what the 
rest of it was like, since GDW was so intent on building the 
Traveller:T2K mililieu of RC... 

>    *SPOILER WARNING*
> 
>    "Vampire Fleets" starts out military, but the players get stripped
>    of their equipment fairly early, and it rapidly turns into a
>    traditional traveller adventure with wheels within wheels and
>    role-playing remaining central to the game.

Yes, but Vampire fleets came out a full 2 years after TNE came out, 
and only after a whole lot of people clamored for non-military stuff 
for the rules system.  The 3 best supplements for TNE were IMHO:
Vampire Fleets, Regency Sourcebook (basically Spinward Marches and 
surrounds updated for the TNE era), and Guilded Lilly.  Not so 
coincidentally, they were 3 of the last 4 things that GDW did before 
going belly up...

>    Virus *really* stretches believability, but after getting used to
>    it I actually like the adventure possiblities. Virus adds a *major*

Actually, self-aware robots and ships have been the topic of a lot of 
science fiction in the last 10-15 years.  Hell, cyberpunk thrives on 
the concept...  Anybody who thinks that Virus stretches believability 
hasn't read a whole lot of recently published science fiction...

>    source of tension and conflict, and creates an atmosphere of
>    adventure that's hard to do in CT, with it's fairly sterile
>    uniform background.

CT was only as sterile as you let it be...  Ask any long-time player 
in my campaigns just how sterile the 3rd Imperium was...

IMHO, if any  backdrop is sterile, the referee hasn't done his 
homework...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:18:47 -0800
Subject: Re: Corps in space

On 21 Jun 96 at 20:02, Larry Hadley spewed:

> 
>    Don't forget the computer option. Bearer securities or book entries
>    might be heavily encrypted data packets on a disk/chip sent via the
>    xboat network (useless without the securities company codes).
> 

Good point, although I suspect that data encryption is going to be 
progressively more difficult to be secure about as TL of computers 
rises, and since the Imperium is about a multitude of different TL's 
not every certificate is going to be data encrypted on some sort of 
storage media.  Lower tech issues will be like they've always been.  
Fancy, watermarked paper...

Stu 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: jmg141@psu.edu (John M. Gardner)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 13:24:21 -0400
Subject: Virus and crew sizes and other stuff

This is probabily going to start a war or something, but I'm going to throw
it on the table anyway.  The most recent (and still ongoing campaing) I've
started went like this. 

My players start out as Active duty navy and marines at a naval research
station durring the final war.  Due to the growing lack of trained crews
(this is very late in the war) the naval archetects have decided to test a
new system to augment the engineering and repair crews with an automated
expert system to be installed in engineering.  The system was to be tested
on a chrysanthemum class DE, and replaced all of the maintainence crew, and
all but 2 or 3 engineers to supervise and direct the system.  (expert
systems require experts as the users ya know.)  

Before the shakedown cruise (actualy, before the ship is really even ready)
a call comes in from some comodore jumping in from some secret research base
nearby.  Lucan had attacked, and the defences were holding, but not for
long.  He ordered everything that could maneuver, fire, and jump to be
prepared for departure (to include the testbed vehicle) and combat.  

After spending an eventful week in jump fixing and reparing almost every
system onboard having fits with the new computers in engineering (and those
darned pesky repair drones), my flustered crew exits jump into a virus
infested graveyard.  The beauty of it was that my more experienced players
actualy didn't even figure out that it was the virus until they had infected
the lifeboats, and every hand computer on board in efforts to regain life
support.

Having exhausted all options, the crew placed themselves into emergency low
births for the next seventy years.  

Later they awake to find the ship taken over by two virus infected computer
systems (the regular one, and the new engineering system), and being used as
pawns in the struggle.



Now, for all of this jibberish two main points stand out for discussion:

1.      now that the players have opted to enter into a "mutual" arangement
with the engineering system and have helped it regain control of the ship,
are there any strains of the virus that are actualy helpful?  I mean . . .
I'm the ref, and I don't even trust this thing.  Is there any precedent in
TNE for a trustworthy virus, or are they all nuts?

2.      never trust a fully automated ship.  "The more they overtick the
plumbing, the easier it is to clog" (so quoth (sort of) a famous engineer
that wasn't needed on his ship.}



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:32:17 -0800
Subject: Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)

On 22 Jun 96 at 10:15, David J. Golden spewed:

> 
>         Why wait? We weren't exactly "asked to input" on the ship design
> sequence, we were told it was going to be HG. After quite a few people gave
> IG their Cr0.02 worth, they came back and asked us to continue to input
> under certain ground rules. I think it would make a great JTAS article or
> supplement, as I've never liked the trade rules either.

Heck, I'd still love to work on it.  If for no other reason than to 
develop my own house rules.  I will put out an outline with my ideas 
on it later this weekend, and ask for advice/input etc. from 
everybody else...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:32:17 -0800
Subject: Re: Securities fraud in space

On 21 Jun 96 at 23:16, Glenn M. Goffin spewed:

Geez, we practically got a whole campaign sketched out of this one 
between the 2 of us.

Great ideas, Glenn...  ;-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:32:17 -0800
Subject: Re: Trading Question/Poll

On 22 Jun 96 at 10:27, Rob Prior spewed:

> Just a quick question/poll as to preferences:
> 
> I was looking at my trading system, which currently has all prices on a per
> cubic metre basis, and wondered if it would be easier if prices were given
> per lot instead?  (Or even, gasp, per displacement ton, although I've always
> found that concept confusing - you know, tonne mass, displacement ton
> volume...)

Personal opinion.

We should go with 1 or the other exclusively.  The worst was MT which 
suggested that you could do other one.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:48:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: How's Your Imperium?

 

On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Steve Charlton wrote:

> Having discovered the list is rife with SCA types (well, two or three 
> anyway) I am forced to ask the following question:
> How has this influenced the way you _run_ the Imperium.

   Well, I can tell you *my* viewpoints certainly have unconciously
influenced my Imperium. My players pointed out my small "l" libertarian
artifacts throughout the infrastructure I built for them. I have the
Imperium set up as a VERY impersonal bureaucracy with a very laissez faire
attitude towards many things. ("He doesn't have nuke on him, he's ok"
Talking about PC with a Fusion Gun and Battle Dress. ;-))

   Except for His Agents, Imperial beaurocrats aren't seen much in public
affairs on individual worlds. 

   This isn't an unreasonable viewpoint, IMO, because of the HUGE
communications lag inherent to Imperial govenrment, though it's arguable
it doesn't have to be this way.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:04:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> On 21 Jun 96 at 20:01, Larry Hadley spewed:
> > "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> said:
> I like an element of chance in the development of characters.  To me, 
> a player being able to pick and choose the skills he/she has means 
> that they are going to in all probability, play the same character, 
> again and again in campaign after campaign, after they've selected 
> what they consider to be the ideal mix of skills...  The only way to 
> prevent this is by the referee arbitrarily preventing the character 
> from generating the same character time after time.  Luck of the draw 
> as in CT & MT prevents this situation from ever happening.  In my 
> opinion, forcing the player to play different character types from 
> campaign to campaign potentially can enhance the player's ability to 
> really role play, as opposed to ROLL-play...

   Agreed - as long as the character gets starting skills appropriate to
the character class. One thing that really bugged me about CT was
generating a marine grunt without gun combat, or a Navy medic without
medic, or a navy pilot without Pilot ;-) you get the drift.

   Personally, I still think the player's going to have more fun
generating a character where he has a _choice_. Also the richer skill set
and better granularity of TNE allow more detailed characters without
getting imbalanced.

   FWIW, the people I play with generally are very good roleplayers, and
have a good idea of what kind of character they want to play before
starting. Both me and another GM I know encourage rolelaying, and in the
case of "problem" players have ways of encouraging players to make
realistic characters. (Ie, even killing machines have social skills and
hobbies)

> The RC is a military background.  So little mention is made of the RC 
> as an economic entity, even in Path of Tears, that the player has to 
> take a wild guess.  GDW did NO design work on the economic system.  
> The trade and commerce section was lifted virtually verbatim from the 
> pages of MT Referees' Manual, which itself was basically Merchant 
> Prince with a bit of chrome...

   That's been a problem as far back as I can remember. Hopefully MM has
his ears to the talk about economics here in TML.

> >    Virus *really* stretches believability, but after getting used to
> >    it I actually like the adventure possiblities. Virus adds a *major*
> 
> Actually, self-aware robots and ships have been the topic of a lot of 
> science fiction in the last 10-15 years.  Hell, cyberpunk thrives on 
> the concept...  Anybody who thinks that Virus stretches believability 
> hasn't read a whole lot of recently published science fiction...

   Perhaps I should have made myself clear, I don't think AI is impossible
- - I just think the idea of a Virus that can infect *any* machine, alien
or human and spread like wildfire taking control *involuntarily* though
things like Fire Control system antenae is plainly ludicrous.

   *Any* computer programmer/system analyst can tell you how stupid that
idea is. For example, a Mac virus cannot harm a PC at all (different
binaries) so why is it so easy for Virus to invade *any* system above a
certain arbitrary limit of complexity? The concept of Virus invading *any*
system through *any* comunications link is stupid. Have you ever heard of
a virus infecting your machine through email?


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:45:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fuel Skimming

>From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>

>Glenn writes:
>
>> This doesn't answer your question about necessary depth to get fuel, but I
>> think that the scene in 2010 
>
>Critical misunderstanding, here:  They were aerobraking to *slow down* 

I stand corrected; thanks for reminding me.  Still, I think that scene in
2010 is a fair guide to what fuel skimming would be like:  a _very_ bumpy ride.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 13:49:41 -0600
Subject: Re: PDF

At 12:35 pm 6/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, David J. Golden wrote:
>> >
>> >   Do you want a copy of my PDF file when I'm finished playing with the
>> >idea? Ship designs, operations outlines, attitudes, frequency of
>> >encounter, Port Authority procedures, etc...
>> 
>>         YES! Tho' maybe something other than PDF?
>
>   What did you have in mind? Something like the Coast Guard? Spaceways
>Authority? Hmm...

        Oops! My misunderstanding ... PDF = Planetary Defense Force! I was
thinking of the format of the document ... PDF= Adobe's Portable Document
Format, which ain't all that portable unless you have Adobe's reader, and
then you still can't edit it. Sorry!
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:34:24 -0800
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On 22 Jun 96 at 15:04, Larry Hadley spewed:

> > Actually, self-aware robots and ships have been the topic of a lot of 
> > science fiction in the last 10-15 years.  Hell, cyberpunk thrives on 
> > the concept...  Anybody who thinks that Virus stretches believability 
> > hasn't read a whole lot of recently published science fiction...
> 
>    Perhaps I should have made myself clear, I don't think AI is impossible
> - I just think the idea of a Virus that can infect *any* machine, alien
> or human and spread like wildfire taking control *involuntarily* though
> things like Fire Control system antenae is plainly ludicrous.
> 
>    *Any* computer programmer/system analyst can tell you how stupid that
> idea is. For example, a Mac virus cannot harm a PC at all (different
> binaries) so why is it so easy for Virus to invade *any* system above a
> certain arbitrary limit of complexity? The concept of Virus invading *any*
> system through *any* comunications link is stupid. Have you ever heard of
> a virus infecting your machine through email?
> 

No, except the Good Times virus ;-)  

Remember though, that the Transponders, as written in Traveller are 
sanitary (untouched by human hands).  They automatically send, 
receive, and process the signal from another ship or communications 
source.  It would not at all be inconceivable today to write e-mail 
software that would download the executable, uudecode it, and execute 
it.  Quite simple in fact.  In those cases, assuming the executable 
was downloaded into the right flavor of machine, it would be very 
conceivable...stupid as hell, but conceivable...

Remember that people are slowly engineering Mac's and PC's 
towards sameness (Power PC which can run both flavors of software and 
OS's).  Mac's, PC's and Amigas have all been capable of running DOS software 
for sometime.  Amigas have cards made available for them that make them 
capable of emulating PC & Mac hardware at about the same speed as a real 
Mac or PC of similar capability.

As technology has progressed through the last 20 years, various 
companies hardware has shown a tendency to become more the same, not 
diverse...  Extrapolate this trend about 3500 years, and its not as 
unconceivable...  In addition, we are talking at TL 15, about machines 
that are "almost" self aware anyways.  Virus supposedly just rewrites 
itself to make the computer self-aware (along with suicidal, or homicidal 
tendencies, in most cases).  As TL 15 machines are envisioned, it might 
be less of a leap of logic then, than it would be now.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #141
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 23 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 142

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: TNE differences
         2. Player choices during Character Generation (was: TNE differences)
         3. Fusion Missile 
         4. Killing Rocks 
         5. Death in character generation
         6. RE: Securities Fraud in Space
         7. RE: Legal Systems
         8. RE: Booby Traps
         9. Traveller's combat system and armor...
        10. Re: Death in character generation
        11. Re: Railguns?
        12. Re: law level & stuff
        13. Re: Trin's Veil as Asteroid Defense.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: farrarb@vnet.net (Bill Farrar)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:04:05 GMT
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
>
> On 21 Jun 96 at 20:01, Larry Hadley spewed:
> > "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> said:
> I like an element of chance in the development of characters.  To me, 
> a player being able to pick and choose the skills he/she has means 
> that they are going to in all probability, play the same character, 
> again and again in campaign after campaign, after they've selected 
> what they consider to be the ideal mix of skills...  The only way to 
> prevent this is by the referee arbitrarily preventing the character 
> from generating the same character time after time.  Luck of the draw 
> as in CT & MT prevents this situation from ever happening.  In my 
> opinion, forcing the player to play different character types from 
> campaign to campaign potentially can enhance the player's ability to 
> really role play, as opposed to ROLL-play...

Hmm....well I can see where you are coming from from this, but i"ve found
that when i've given people the *option* to generate background for
charactes and let them choose skills that i don't really see alot of
duplication.  there are still archetypes that i get periodically ("the
engineer", "Hotshot Pilot", "scientist", and "Grunt") but overall i get a
better feel for their character, and b/c the background is now seen as
part of *that* characer, i don't see the players creating someone with the
same background and therefore skills...

bill

Bill Farrar, C++Windows Programmer.
The Linking and Binding is the Important step...
"60 Million Gigabits can do alot.  It can even do Windows"
Fred Pohl, _Beyond_The_Blue_Event_Horizon_

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:09:15 GMT
Subject: Player choices during Character Generation (was: TNE differences)

Regarding player control over character generation, I feel that charact=
er
duplication (ie: playing more-or-less the same character, over and over=
)
eventually falls off as maturity and experience with the system increas=
es.  My
group plays a lot of Shadowrun and GURPS (as well as a few home-brewed =
systems)
and we begin to *make it a point* to try and create truly unique charac=
ters
(past and present characters included).  The players have to work that =
much
harder to create an identity for their characters, which means the camp=
aign also
benifits.  Hell, my last Shadowrun character had a three page backgroun=
d
generated prior to game play, printed in 9 point Arial font, single spa=
ced.  My
back-up for the same campaign has a background nearly seven pages in le=
ngth (and
it keeps growing)!  Characters don't have to be different solely based =
on their
numerical attribute and skill ratings.  All it takes is a little hard w=
ork (and
perhaps some cold pizza and chocolate milk before bedtime  8-}

I tried to create a character generation system to give my players more=
 freedom
over the birth of their characters but it proved not to be necessary (g=
ood
roleplayers can overcome any obsticle).  l give my players "Three Wishe=
s" which
they can use in various ways, including:


Re-roll any 1 die roll during character generation (re-roll must be bet=
ter than
previous roll)=85 1 Wish

Instead of rolling, distribute 45 points amongst the character=92s six =
primary
attributes in any way the player sees fit (stats cannot exceed 13; SOC =
is still
rolled normally)=85 2 Wishes

Make the character a Knight (SOC B)=85 2 Wishes

Give the character "psionic potential"=85 3 Wishes

Create a younger character that starts out at age 14 (only 2 level-2 ba=
ckground
skills); character=92s first "career" must be either Criminal or Tough=85=
 1 Wish

Gain an unusual background skill not listed on the Background Skills Li=
st at
level-2=85 1 Wish

Buy enough Anagathics for the present four-year term=85 1 Wish

Add +1 to Initiative (cannot raise Initiative above 4 for civilians and=
 7 for
military)=85 1 Wish

Add an additional Cr50,000 to the character=92s starting money=85 1 Wis=
h

Acquire a single reusable re-roll for use during play (re-roll must be =
better
than previous roll; this re-roll is reclaimed at the start of each gami=
ng
session)=85 2 Wishes


Do any other referees out there have house rules for the character crea=
tion
process ?

jlindsay@direct.ca    Vancouver, British Columbia

"WIZARD PARKING ONLY"... All Others Will Be Toad.

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:55:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Fusion Missile 

Doh! For those interested, I made an error with that "anti-rock" missile.
It has EXACTLY HALF the G-turns it should have. I calculated fuel use as
g-hours and converted directly to g-turns without thinking....double
G-turns available and total delta-vee.

I'm also designing a ship-borne version of the weapon, but it'll be
smaller with a nuke-det warhead. It'll also have a solid-fuel booster to
push away on so the launching vessel (so the launching vessel won't kill
itself with the wash from the fusion motor). Unfortunately, because of
some limitations on fusion motors this will be a BAY ONLY weapon. No
standard missiles, here!

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 




------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 19:13:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Killing Rocks 

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:
:Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> writes:
:>    I imagine the crew would offload before heading out, leaving a skeleton
:> volunteer crew to leave on the Cutter/Pinnace/LB after they're close
:> enough to guarantee a hit.

:Nope. It has to be a suicide run. The target is about the size of a
:football field. And moving at several percent of c relative to the
:interceptor. By the time you get close enough to be relatively sure of
:hitting it, it's too late to get out of range of the blast.

  I'm assuming the n-body problem is simplified at frac-cee
  velocities, and the pilot is competent enough to program in a
  simple homing sequence on the autopilot/computer, using the starship's
  sensors as primary input. The crew would still likely get a dose, but
  it's better than the planet getting nailed by a 100m asteroid!

  BTW, I don't think this would *guarantee* stopping the rock, but
  *anything's* better than letting that rock hit!

  I'm also playing with a starship carried KKW based on a fusion
  missile, unfortunately because of FF&S minimums it looks like this'll
  be too big to be a standard missile, it *will* provide an alternative to
  ramming a multi-MCr starship into the rock, unlikely as the event is.

:Also, if one wanted to get *real* nasty, note that graphite covered
:steel spheres survived unharmed at a range of a meter or two from a
:nuclear explosion.

   Yeah, but 500 *Giga*tons?

   I like the radar controlled bb-gun, btw. :-)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 



------------------------------

From: matth <matth@ritz.mordor.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:12:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Death in character generation

Hi: 

Many of my players complained that it was frustrating to spend alot of
time building a character only to have it die because you made a bad roll. 

I added an alternative to that. If someone failed their survival role then 
they were out of the service they were in and managed to be in one of
several situations: dead, stranded on an alien world, framed/imprisoned, 
or injured bad enough that they were not very valuable to that service
any more. 

Matthew


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 08:18:42 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: RE: Securities Fraud in Space

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>
>Scenario number 4:  Purchasers of New Company's stock during the time of
>Scenarios 2 and 3 institute a class action securities fraud lawsuit against
>Megacorp.  Wily plaintiffs' lawyers find the PCs and offer MCr and passage
>incognito to the other side of the Imperium for holorecorded (or otherwise
>admissible) statements detailing Megacorp's scheme.  If PCs don't cooperate,
>plaintiffs' lawyers will have no choice but to turn them over to the
>Securities and Exchange Division of the Imperial Ministry of Finance for
>interrogation, detainment, criminal trial, and lengthy incarceration.

        Me like :).

>
>Scenario number 5:  Megacorp's allies in the Moot have previously "reformed"
>securities fraud class actions out of existence.  A purchaser of New
>Company's stock, distraught over the loss of life savings, spouse, home,
>etc., pulls a Taxi Driver, but can't get into the home or office of
>Megacorp's CEO.  He finds out about the PCs, however, and (a) starts
>stalking them or (b) hires them to get him inside for revenge (as
>quasi-insiders they have some access, and we've already demonstrated their
>amorality).  Again, if PCs don't cooperate, Taxi Driver will turn them over
>to plaintiffs' lawyers -- er, the SED.
>

        Even better, heh heh.  An alternate take on all this would be having
the players work for the SED, although it could lend itself to serious abuse
of pwoer by the players :).  I take it you're down on the recent US
securities litigation reforms?



   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   |-------------------------------------------------|
   | "An imperfect plan implemented immediately and  |
   |  violently will always succeed better than a    |
   |  perfect plan"                                  |
   |	             -Gen. George Patton             |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:01:17 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: RE: Legal Systems

[a brief note; this may be off topic, but it does give some background on
how various legal ystems work and thus could be used as background material
in a campaign]

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>
>>From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
>
>>Most British common law-based systems depend heavily on precident, but a
>>French friend tells me that the Code Napoleon does not depend on precident to
>>the same extent (it's used as a guideline, but not actual case law, or
>>something like that).
> 
>Common law systems  (U.K., U.S.A., Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and
>possibly some others (Jamaica, maybe)) and civil law systems (basically all
>the rest of the world) give different weights to the sources of law.  Common
>law systems recognize two primary sources of law:  judicial decisions which
>set forth customs and practices of the society, and legislative (and
>executive) enactments.  Civil law systems recognize enactments of the
>legislative and executive branches of government, but basically don't allow
>judges to establish law.

        Pretty much bang on, althoug one quarter of Canada's population
lives in a civilian jurisdiction: Quebec.  I'd just want to add that (to the
lay audience, since you already know this) civil law evolved in Europe, and
is largely based on Roman law; thus, it's had nearly 2&1/2 millenia worth of
development.  Civil law systems tend to rely on codes that state broad legal
principles in plain language; the reasoning process in civil law is thus
inductive (reasoning from principles to specifics according to the facts of
the case), and civil law is very accessible.  Plunk an average person down
in front of a civil code, and he'd be able to understand most of it.  OTOH,
codification does not lend itself to flexibility; and thus the law doesn't
evolve as rapidly as it can in the common law.  

        Common law originated in English law, and thus, is relatively young
(about 8 centuries or so).  Traditonally, it relies largely on judicial
precedent, and thus the reasoning process is deductive; you're working the
general principles up from study of common threads running through various
judgments.  It tends to be less theoretically coherent than the civil law,
purely because the civil law has had the benefit of about 600 years more of
being studied in universities; what the civil law calls Obligations, the
common law treats as Contract, Tort, and Unjust Enrichment.

        An example of the different approaches: the law of unjust
enrichment.  The Civil Code of Quebec covers it in 5 articles that fit
nicely into the Book on Obligations.  It gets covered in maybe a week of
classes in first year.  My equivalent common law course covered about the
same ground in a term, had a legal-sized casebook two inches thick, and had
about a half-dozen hefty textbooks as recommended reading.  Regardless of
approach, though, both systems often come to the same result.  Both have
their strengths and weaknesses, and both are a lot of fun to study...

>
>These basic differences give rise to some other important distinctions.  In
>common law systems, judges review statutes to see if they are lawful; this
>may or not be the case in civil law systems.  

        In Quebec, courts may review statutes on constitutional grounds;
that's because the court system in Quebec is based on the British model (as
is criminal and constitutional law).  In France, there is some sort of
judicial body that reviews statutes for constitutionality before they pass;
I believe that it's merely consultative.


>In common law systems,
>statutes or other enactments are drafted rather broadly, and are interpreted
>by the courts over time (i.e., a judicial gloss is put on the plain text).
>In civil law systems, enactments are long and specific, and attempt to cover
>every possible situation.  

        Characterizing civilian statutes as "long and specific" is a little
off base.  You can get incredibly, nightmarishly, technical statutes in both
systems.  My experience with civilian drafting (mostly Quebec statutes) is
that they only get technical where neccessary; otherwise they tend to be no
more complex than Canadian common law statutes

>In general, civil law systems don't pay attention
>to judicial gloss on statutes, and each court construes the statute as it
>sees fit.

        Not quite... In Quebec, the reasons of a case on a given point are
_interpretation_, not statement, of the rule.  The judges are saying what
they think the relevant articles mean, not what the law is.  Stare decisis
applies; the articles in the 1866 Civil Code of Lower Canada dealing with
ruin of a building came to be interpreted in such a way that victims could
only recover if some part of the building detached itself under the
influence of gravity and fell.  The 1994 Civil Code of Quebec fixed that :).
In France, the situation is similar, although I'm not sure to what extent
precedent is binding.

>
>There are cultural differences, too.  In common law countries, judges are
>clearly part of the society's elite:  They are of advanced age; they often
>serve for life (U.S. federal judges, e.g.); they are mostly members of the
>dominant race, ethnic group, social class, and gender; they are highly paid;
>they are in the last job of their legal careers.  In civil law countries, by
>contrast, judges are not so clearly part of the elite.  For example, in most
>civil law countries "judge" is one of the entry-level legal positions.  A
>new judge might eventually become a senior judge, or move on to other
>governmental work or the private sector.  

        Bang on.  As well, there are procedural differences; the common law
trial is adversarial in nature, where the two parties present their
arguements to the judge, who acts as a neutral arbiter.  The jury decides
fact, and the judge decides points of law and sentence.  In the civilian
system, the system is inquisitorial, or investigative if you prefer :), and
the judges' role includes investigating facts as well as judging fact and
law.  There are no juries in traditional civil law.

        Then of course there's the Confucian justice system.  That's scary
:).  No lawyers, no juries, perjury was pretty much to be expected, torture
was routinely used, the judge had incredibly broad powers, and the aim of
the process in civil cases was more oriented towards dispute resolution via
judically imposed compromise than settling the case based on the parties'
rights.  Near so far as I can tell, it wasn't exactly a system of private
law as we know it, but rather a sort of arbitration.

        Then there's modern Russian law: if your debtor is in default,
rather than call your lawyer, you call your local mafia boss, and a
half-dozen guys named Vlad in track suits with Kalashnikovs go shoot him.

[snip]
>
>
>>There are a few states in the US (Gulf South mostly, Louisiana in 
>
>It's only Louisiana, as far as I know.

        California, too, I believe, since it was originally a Spanish
possession and thus civil law ran.  I had occasion to go searching through
the California Corporations Code the other day; its laid out in almost
exactly the same way as a civilian civil code is.



   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   |-------------------------------------------------|
   | "An imperfect plan implemented immediately and  |
   |  violently will always succeed better than a    |
   |  perfect plan"                                  |
   |	             -Gen. George Patton             |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:20:48 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: RE: Booby Traps

        Leaonard Erickson wrote:

>
>I seem to recall an adventure where an unco-operative "bad guy" got
>left for his friends to find. He was tied up, gagged, and then someone
>cheerfully stuffed a grenade under him and pulled the pin. 
>
>As I understand it, he did a *lot* of squawking thru the gag when his
>buddies started to pick him up. Of course, being "good guys" the
>grenade didn't have a charge, just a bit of fusing. So it went "bang",
>not "boom". 
>

        What?  They didn't use a thermonuclear hand grenade?  Wimps :).




   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   |-------------------------------------------------|
   | "An imperfect plan implemented immediately and  |
   |  violently will always succeed better than a    |
   |  perfect plan"                                  |
   |	             -Gen. George Patton             |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: jeff_michelle nort <103010.212@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 22 Jun 96 21:53:19 EDT
Subject: Traveller's combat system and armor...

	When I called and ordered my copy of MMT (hardcover), I got the
oppertunity to talk with the character/combat system designer. He was very nice,
listened intently, and accepted some ideas.
	It seems that the character system is done with the 'fail and you die'
rolls. When you  fail the roll, you are 'released from service'. A big plus....
	It also seems that armor in the combat system is a damage reduction, by
way of subtracting damage dice from the hit. He breifly described a 3-dice
weapon hitting 2-dice armor and the net effect was 1-dice damage. Nothing about
blunt or k-effect damage, tho I guess that some effect will be there...
	I pumped him for some word on computer assistance in the game. He related
that IG is looking into system/quadrant generators, character/combat/encounter/
ect. programs, design programs, and no word on the 'T-O-T' (time on target)
dates. I assume by his tone that IG will seek outside / licenced help on that
avenue.
	No word was given on books/novels. I'm intrested in this area (both
reading and writing).
	It is good to be able to talk to someone working on the project and get
some first hand info. It kinda takes me back to the AH games days when you could
talk to someone becides an operator who will take your order. Only other game
designer-type now adays was Dean Issig from The Gamers'. Just wish that I could
have bought 10 of the hardcovers for investing (or bribing.....).
	Guys and gals, the future looks bright for MMT. It may be reaching by
just one phone call, but I tend to trust gut feelings.

Jeff

	'If he's Commader-in-Chief, can he be Court Martialed under the UCMJ?'
	212 days left, god willing...


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 19:56:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Death in character generation

On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, matth wrote:

> Hi: 
> 
> Many of my players complained that it was frustrating to spend alot of
> time building a character only to have it die because you made a bad roll. 

It was part of the excitement for us, but...

> I added an alternative to that. If someone failed their survival role then 
> they were out of the service they were in and managed to be in one of
> several situations: dead, stranded on an alien world, framed/imprisoned, 
> or injured bad enough that they were not very valuable to that service
> any more. 

...we sometimes used an alternate system as well.  The alternate was 
used when a survival throw was failed, and it offered no chance of 
death.  Instead, it was an additional table that was consulted to 
determine the reason for forced discharge: dishonor, disability (lost an 
arm, eye, etc.), and other things.  In time, though, (about the time we 
finally came to the conclusion that Traveller was one of only two systems 
we truly enjoyed) we came to realize that the survival roll was a part of 
Traveller we enjoyed.

You see, for a very long time we tried numerous game systems, and even 
developed a couple of our own, in search of the perfect RPG for us.  When 
MegaTraveller came out, we didn't much care for it.  We thought we could 
do better.  And we set out to do so.  We wanted to take the best elements 
of our favorite games, combine them into one cohesive game, and add a 
new background/setting.  It was the last system we developed together.

What we came up with was a great success as far as playability and 
enjoyment goes (my favorite part was the combat system - a single roll to 
determine "to hit," damage, and hit location - developed by yours truly), 
but it also made us realize Traveller was the system for us.  The system 
we'd developed, while having its own quirks, turned out to be simply an 
embellishment of the Traveller system, down to prior careers for 
characters (tho it had many more character types, and many more skills, 
used 2D12, had different characteristics, etc.) - but with a new, 
limited setting (Earth in the year 2000, with an alternate future that 
diverged with our world in about 1940).  We went through the whole 
development process, playtesting and really enjoying the hard work that 
went into it...then we realized that, through all of our efforts, we had 
created something like Traveller, but not as good.

So, I filed that game away (I still have the binder with the printouts, 
but not the computer files, alas) and we returned to Traveller with a new 
appeciation of the system.  Instead of taking it for granted that the 
system was broken (that was the way we approached all RPGs back in the 
days of our Quest for the Ultimate RPG), we took a good look at it.  
And you know what?  We found that Classic Traveller works really well 
as-is.  

We played many sessions using the system without changes, enjoying it 
very much.  After a while, we did re-institute some few changes, but only 
after long, hard thought and much discussion.  

Anyway, that's my story of how our gaming group finally figured out that 
the survival rolls, among other things, are part of the Traveller system, 
and that without them it is a poorer game (for us, that is).


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:08:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Railguns?

>   Damn it, you beat me to the punch! I've been playing with some railgun
>   numbers for the past couple of days (along with DMS sites, but I
>   digress...)

I developed a twenty ton space mine than utilized passive sensors and a
hefty mass driver.  The idea was you placed the thing in orbit of a gas
giant and let it sit there.  When ships came in they were given a certian
length of time to send a code before the mass driver opened up with a ten
shot burst.  Because of the size of the round it was virtually undetectable
even with active sensors.  The mine would wait till the ship was within
30,000 km  before firing and if the ship was going to approach closer than
that it'd calculate a best intercept course.  Getting hit with one of these
things would tear huge holes in the largest ships.

The big problem was it took quite a while for the rounds to reach their
target.  I discarded it after a while as essentially unworkable.

DS


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:22:38 -0700
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

>Booby traps are an *art*. The best ones are set up so that they are
>simple enough to get the average person, but also so that if a truly
>suspicious type examines them, he'll be able to figure out (with
>difficulty) how to disarm them. Only to have the "backup" kill him.
>After all, you *really* want to take out the "smart" ones.

You should talk to my buddy, he's in armored cav recon.  It's his job to
place booby traps to slow the enemy down.  He's got some real beauties he
could tell you about.  False booby traps guarded by false booby traps
guarded by a real booby trap.  Its frightening, tilted paintings, heat
registers, chairs, etc.  The first thing they drive into your head in the
Canadian Armed Forces, is "DON'T PICK UP ANYTHING!  SOUVINIER HUNTING ONLY
GETS YOU DEAD!"

DS


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:27:20 -0700
Subject: Re: Trin's Veil as Asteroid Defense.

What exactly is Trin's Veil?  I know that Trin is a planet in the Spinward
Marches, and that Trin's Veil is the name of the sub-sector it's in and that
the subsector is renamed Trin's Shroud after Trin get's the bejesus beat out
of it by a Ziru Sirkaan battle ship named Kishkii.  The ship is a Vampire
just incase you didn't guess.

What is the Veil?

DS


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #142
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 23 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 143

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #117
         2. Re: Traveller New Era
         3. Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)
         4. Re: TNE differences
         5. Re: TNE differences
         6. Re: TNE differences
         7. RE: Booby Traps
         8. Re: Trading Question/Poll
         9. Heads up on how to make QSDS ships profitable at 1000Cr per ton
        10. SCA like org for Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:31:53 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #117

>> Yep, know the type well.  I on the other hand tend to think this is a bad
>> thing.  As generally there's way more of them than you.  I mean there's no
>> such thing as a completely squemish PC, but lets face it every drop of blood
>> you spill while trying to accomplish your mission lowers the value of
>> whatever it is you're trying to accomplish exponentially.
>
>A *very* relevant quote:
>
>"Friends come and go, enemies accumulate."

That's poetic.  I like that ;)  <--  Notice the tear in my eye.  8)

Actually I really like that.  It's so truthful and so simple/

DS


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:34:55 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller New Era

>Entertainer, that's easy. Look at any of a number of TV shows. The
>Magician was the first to spring to mind.
>
>As for athlete, consider Bill Cosby's first TV show, I Spy. He and his
>partner were spies operating with a cover of a pair of tennis pros opn
>the international circuit. 

Ya, people I know take athlete or martial artist to counteract the effect of
aging.  You lose a point of dex, no I don't I'm a martial artist I'll just
buy it back.

DS


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:29:38 -0700
Subject: Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)

>Unless you are riding a "toy" motorcycle, you are talking about an
>object 5 feet long, about 4 feet high, and a foot or more thick.
>
>That works out to about 600 liters, or .6 Td.

(add incredulous tone to voice) REALLY?!?  (Eek the Cat is perfect).  It
sound so large, guess it's just my over active imagination.

DS


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:51:16 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE differences

>   Agreed - as long as the character gets starting skills appropriate to
>the character class. One thing that really bugged me about CT was
>generating a marine grunt without gun combat, or a Navy medic without
>medic, or a navy pilot without Pilot ;-) you get the drift.

This was something that drove me up the wall.  

DRIVIN' DAVE: You're a medic right?  

MOE MEDICINE: Ya. 

DRIVIN' DAVE: Well fix him.  

MOE MEDICINE: Ummm...  Well you see I ummm... well I never really took that
course I kinda forgot about it in the training ...  

DRIVIN' DAVE: YOU WHAT!?!  

MOE MEDICINE: I... ummmm ... well you see there was this night of really
heavy drinking at the frosh mixer and I kinda got side tracked by this
really foxy TA in engineering... well ... you know.  

>   Personally, I still think the player's going to have more fun
>generating a character where he has a _choice_. Also the richer skill set
>and better granularity of TNE allow more detailed characters without
>getting imbalanced.

Fewer killing machine's roving the cosmos.  Karl Sagan would be happy.

>   FWIW, the people I play with generally are very good roleplayers, and
>have a good idea of what kind of character they want to play before
>starting. Both me and another GM I know encourage rolelaying, and in the
>case of "problem" players have ways of encouraging players to make
>realistic characters. (Ie, even killing machines have social skills and
>hobbies)
>
>> The RC is a military background.  So little mention is made of the RC 
>> as an economic entity, even in Path of Tears, that the player has to 
>> take a wild guess.  GDW did NO design work on the economic system.  
>> The trade and commerce section was lifted virtually verbatim from the 
>> pages of MT Referees' Manual, which itself was basically Merchant 
>> Prince with a bit of chrome...

This is absolutly true.  The only thing you could do being a merchant was
shuffle bat guano from Spencer to Fija or head out into the wilds and become
Moe Money, travelling merchant and information source for the RC.

>   That's been a problem as far back as I can remember. Hopefully MM has
>his ears to the talk about economics here in TML.

Huzzah to that... 8)

>   Perhaps I should have made myself clear, I don't think AI is impossible
>- I just think the idea of a Virus that can infect *any* machine, alien
>or human and spread like wildfire taking control *involuntarily* though
>things like Fire Control system antenae is plainly ludicrous.

Most of the early infections took place through the IFF transponder units
and most of the original virus's lay dormant for weeks "feeling out their
surroundings".  The problem that I always had with it was how did the
silicon suddenly become alive?  Suspension of disbelief always took a
pounding on this one.

Virus had a hell of a time with both Hiver and Aslan computers.  Hiver's
because they were so quick to figure out what was happening and Aslan
because there was no common thread between two clan's programming and
architecture structures.  

If you can get past the initial "silicon comes to life" bit things were easier.

DS


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:55:40 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE differences

>As technology has progressed through the last 20 years, various 
>companies hardware has shown a tendency to become more the same, not 
>diverse...  Extrapolate this trend about 3500 years, and its not as 
>unconceivable...  In addition, we are talking at TL 15, about machines 
>that are "almost" self aware anyways.  Virus supposedly just rewrites 
>itself to make the computer self-aware (along with suicidal, or homicidal 
>tendencies, in most cases).  As TL 15 machines are envisioned, it might 
>be less of a leap of logic then, than it would be now.

Ahhh... Virus...  Ain't she just the most wonderful totally psychotic
villian that was ever created?  These suicidal/homicidal tendencies are a
biproduct of the Virus's very nature, they're designed to self-destruct
after completing their mission, some of them just took it one step to far.

Has anyone met Sandman yet?

DS


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:59:39 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE differences

>Hmm....well I can see where you are coming from from this, but i"ve found
>that when i've given people the *option* to generate background for
>charactes and let them choose skills that i don't really see alot of
>duplication.  there are still archetypes that i get periodically ("the
>engineer", "Hotshot Pilot", "scientist", and "Grunt") but overall i get a
>better feel for their character, and b/c the background is now seen as
>part of *that* characer, i don't see the players creating someone with the
>same background and therefore skills...

My character for my RC campaign is a Spiri and my background skills were so
off the wall the GM loved them.  Music, Philosophy, Painting and Song.
After that I went though the Pre-industrial University, Barbarian (I became
a wanderer and a temple guard), Hiver Tech and Marine.  The only problem in
generation was I had to explain away why all my contacts, way before the
founding of the Dawn League were offworlder's.  That was the tough part.

It's probably  one of the best most well rounded character's I've ever created.

DS


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:04:31 -0700
Subject: RE: Booby Traps

>
>        What?  They didn't use a thermonuclear hand grenade?  Wimps :).
>
You know you just lay down beside those puppies and they won't hurt you. 8)

True story actually.  Did a stint in the reserves for a summer.  My Master
Corporal for grenade training pulls the pin, puts the grenade down and lays
down about 4 feet away.  The grenade goes off he gets up and dusts himself
off.  Apparently there's a shock "bump" about that far out and none of the
frags go through that zone.  Of course he told us to never try this ourselves.

DS


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 01:39:30 -0600
Subject: Re: Trading Question/Poll

On 06/22/96 at 10:27 AM,  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob
Prior) said:

>Just a quick question/poll as to preferences:

>Anyway, what do people think?  Prices based on volume would make
>comparisons between different cargos easier, prices based on lots
>would make calculations for a particular cargo easier.

Tough one...how about both?  <g> A "lot" wouldn't be of a single size,
I wouldn't think, so each lot would have to include the number of
m^3's it occupies, and you would have to indicate mass/volume anyway
for stowage purposes.  A price quote could be something like 800cr/lot
(120cr/m^3).

I'd prefer cubic meters to displacement tons, personally.  I have a
request however, can we stay consistant and not switch back and forth
between cubic meters and kiloliters, and while we're at it what is a
good abbreviation for cubic meter?  I've used m^3, but I don't much
like it, it can't be cm, and m3 doesn't really cut it either.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 22 Jun 96 21:35:32 EDT
Subject: Heads up on how to make QSDS ships profitable at 1000Cr per ton

Yo Folkes,
  I've got QSDS on a spreadsheet now. I'm not 100% sure all the
bugs are out but it seems OK. Initially I had trouble producing
ships that are profitable at 1000Cr/ton for cargo and 10000Cr/ton
on high-passage. Even when I put in the 25% discount.
  However, remember your TCS rules: _exchange rates_.
  All the prices of the standard Imperial settings assumed a
norm of TL15. The norm of mileu-0 is TL12. A ship produced on
a TL12 world is 15% cheaper than "normal". At TL9 it goes down
to 30% cheaper.
  When I made those adjustments _then_ my ships started being
profitable.
  I'll post designs once I'm sure my spreadsheet works. (Any
volunteers to test it? You need Lotus 1-2-3.)
       Jo

------------------------------

From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 22 Jun 96 21:28:54 EDT
Subject: SCA like org for Traveller

The Druid writes:
>Its to bad there is not an organization similar to the SCA
>for Traveller enthusiasts.
  Well, you know, you can always start one. Hell, over here
we have BITS run by Andy Lilly (British Isles Traveller
Support). Sort of fills a similar niche.
  That is, of course, assuming you mean a hobby related society
to support groups of enthusiasts. Now if you actually mean
SCA like orginsations in Traveller, well, I've put it to a
few of those who have expressed Heraldic Interests the idea
of setting up a Imperial Office of Heraldry. We would accept
heraldic "submission" and those "approved", along with various
heraldic rulings, would be posted to the web.
  :-)

  And, for the record, I exist in the SCA as Lord Seamus Donn,
Marshal of the Shire of Lough Devnaree, Kingdom of Drachenwald.
I hold a Linquist Ring, served King Elffin the First as personal
secretary, and King Michael the Good as Warlord for Pennsic.
My personal arms are "Argent and Azure, a Dun cow propser statant
to sinister".
  More of my exploits (for the truly bored) can be read up on
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~jaymin.
     Jo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #143
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 23 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 144

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Trading Question/Poll
         2. X-Decompression
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #139
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #139
         5. Beanstalk question
         6. Re: House Trade Rules
         7. Re: Pop and Popguns!
         8. Re: Big Rock vs Little RockS
         9. Re: Imperial Symbols
        10. Re: Engineers!
        11. Re: Trading Question/Poll
        12. Re: PDF
        13. Re: PDF
        14. Re: Heads up on how to make QSDS ships profitable at 1000Cr per ton
        15. Re: Trin's Veil as Asteroid Defense.
        16. Re: TNE differences

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:48:31 -0600
Subject: Re: Trading Question/Poll

At 01:39 am 6/23/96 -0600, eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) wrote:

>I'd prefer cubic meters to displacement tons, personally.  I have a
>request however, can we stay consistant and not switch back and forth
>between cubic meters and kiloliters, and while we're at it what is a
>good abbreviation for cubic meter?  I've used m^3, but I don't much
>like it, it can't be cm, and m3 doesn't really cut it either.

        Instead of either, we could use kiloliters (kl) -- one kl IS one
cubic meter. It's just that liters are usually used to indicate volume of
liquids, but there's no hard physical rule ("WARNING: FUSION WILL NOT OCCUR
IF YOU MEASURE THE REACTION CHAMBER IN KL").
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 12:19:25 -0400
Subject: X-Decompression

 > Personell exposed to a rapid decompression do not: 
 > explode, spew blood out of every opening, have
 > their heads swell like balloons, die 
 > instantly, or anything like that.

 No...put it does hurt like hell, so I'm told.

 > seeing as we have never first hand experienced the
 > effects of ED all of this is just theory. I would 
 > imagine NASA has done some work on it though.

 For the record, Jerry Pournell says he (and about 40 other 
 human volunteers) underwent decompression (he doesn't say 
 explosive, he doesn't say he went completely to vacuum,
 and he doesn't say for for how long). He does say it is
 not something he'd do again given the choice.

 Anyway, for those of you who want the nitty gritty:

 "Rapid (Explosive) Decompression Emergencies in Pressure-Suited 
 Subjects", by Emanuel M. Roth, NASA CR-1223, circa 1968. Its 
 focus is on decompression, rather than vacuum exposure per se.

 _The Effect on the Chimpanzee of Rapid Decompression to a Near 
 Vacuum_, Alfred G. Koestler ed., NASA CR-329 (Nov 1965).

 _Experimental Animal Decompression to a Near Vacuum 
 Environment_, R.W. Bancroft, J.E. Dunn, eds, Report SAM-TR-65-48 
 (June 1965), USAF School of Aerospace Medicine, Brooks AFB, 
 Texas.

 "Survival in space: medical problems of manned spaceflight" by 
 Richard M. Harding; Chapter 3: "Pressure and density".
 SBN 0-415-00253-2 Publisher: Routledge, New York 1989

 I'll skip the direct quotes. They get a little gruesome.
 There seems to be some disagreement on how long a human
 could remain conscious and able to react to an emergency.

 Frankly, I would think that _non-explosive_ decompression
 events would be more dangerous. Slow loss of pressure is
 hard to detect without instruments, and hypoxia would degrade
 reaction time until you lapsed into unconsciousness, then 
 suffocated.

 Loren Wiseman


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 17:19 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #139

In-Reply-To: <199606221621.MAA12401@NS.MPGN.COM>

>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
>Subject: Re: Trading Question/Poll
> 
>At 12:05 pm 6/22/96 -0400, Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
>wrote:
>>On 22 Jun 1996, Rob Prior wrote:
>>
>>> Just a quick question/poll as to preferences:
>>>
>>> I was looking at my trading system, which currently has all prices on a per
>>> cubic metre basis, and wondered if it would be easier if prices were given
>>> per lot instead?  (Or even, gasp, per displacement ton, although I've alway
>>> found that concept confusing - you know, tonne mass, displacement ton
>>> volume...)
>>
>>   Lots, with m3/kl as the basic unit of volume.
> 
>        Ditto me on this ... I've grown to detest displacement tons, and if
>"I Were Marc Miller" I'd drop them entirely.


After 15 years, I've rather got used to them. Drop them for cargo, but keep
them for rating ship sizes.

                      --------=====OOO=====--------
Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 12:55:09 -0600
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #139

At 05:19 pm 6/23/96 BST-1, you wrote:
>>>   Lots, with m3/kl as the basic unit of volume.
>> 
>>        Ditto me on this ... I've grown to detest displacement tons, and if
>>"I Were Marc Miller" I'd drop them entirely.
>
>
>After 15 years, I've rather got used to them. Drop them for cargo, but keep
>them for rating ship sizes.

        That's how I feel. Everybody's used to using them for rating ships,
and it'd probably feel funny talking about the "1400cubic meter
Scout/Courier," but for everything else, from cargo to fuel to vehicles to
ship components, I like "real" units.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:47:13 -0500
Subject: Beanstalk question

Apologies if I missed this in the discussion about beanstalks but....

Someone mentioned that in the book _Red Mars_, the beanstalk is brought down 
(it wrapped itself around the planet) by destroying the station in orbit.

Assuming the planet was Earth, how long would it take for a beanstalk to come 
down?  The part near the planetside anchor would presumably strike first, then  
the planet would reel it in, with great destruction the farther along the 
beanstalk you got. 

This would make a great disaster movie -- where's Irwin Allen when we need 
him...

Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
someday agree with something I say.


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 00:37:59 PST
Subject: Re: House Trade Rules

eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) writes:

> >What formats are people using?  Does everyone assume Windows?
> 
> NO!  NO!  I don't assume Windows, and I hope some of the neat ideas
> floating around aren't going to be tied to just one environment.
> 
> >Some of us are running other things... 
> 
> I run OS/2, so I can run DOS & Window3.1 stuff too.  I can't run ,or
> develop for, Mac or Amiga or TRS80 (that was for Joe <g>). Most
> Macintosh or Amiga folks I know can run DOS programs through emulation
> at least, so DOS is still the common demominator.

I can (barely) run Windows 3.0 on this system. I'd rather have stuff in
DOS. I'm looking into getting an old Mac, and I've got several sorts of
TRS-80, I can even write software for some of them (Model III/4, Model
100, and maybe Model II (I'm not sure if have BASIC for that one))



Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 00:41:44 PST
Subject: Re: Pop and Popguns!

eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) writes:

> On 06/21/96 at 08:16 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> said:
> 
> >I dunno about "flavored water". Let's assume 2 liter bottles of soda.
> >A quick check gives me 9 bottles in a 40 cm cube, or about 200 per
> >DT. So that gives me a value of $1000 per DT.
> 
> Gee!  Where do *you* buy your soda?  I never pay more than
> $1.50/bottle, usually I can get a 2 liter for under a dollar, but
> let's say for some reason you're pop wholesales to you at $1.50, so...
> 
> ...200*1.5= $300 not $1000!
> 
> BTW, 200 per ton eyeballs as much too low let me figure...I took some
> measurements and it looks like a 2 liter bottle is about 10x32cm.
> Let's say you could get 9x9x3 bottles per M^3 so..
> 
> 9x9x3x14=3402, let's drop that to 3200 to cover wasted volumn and
> shipping materials
> 
> 3200*1.5 = $4800 not $300 or $1000
> 
> At wholesale of $.50/bottle the cost is still $1600.


Ooops. But I did figure on the "packing". The local store brand comes
in 3x3 "flats", that stack. That's where I got the 9 per 40 CM cube.
That gives 64,000 cc for 9 bottles. 14 kl is 14,000,000 cc. That gives
about 200 40 cm cubes per DT, or 1800 bottles. $1000/1800 gives about
56 cents a bottle (including deposit :-)

> >As for weapons, I know what sort of shipping case SKS rifles and
> >AK-47s come in (a friend used to be a dealer). A 2x1x1 meter box
> >holds a dozen rifles. So 7 such boxes in a DT, for 84 rifles per DT.
> >So we get about $4000 per DT. 
> 
> ...and where do you buy your weapons?  <g> 
> 
> $4000/84=$47.62 each!  

He was buying in lots of 10 for $75 or so each. I figure that the
wholsaler he was going thru probably paid only about $50 each to the
Chinese. Remember, they were selling these things by the shipping
cannister! 

> (Of course this is better than the $12/weapon you'd pay at $1000/dt.)
> 
> ACR's wouldn't be that cheap, even at wholesale, would they? I'd guess
> $100 each giving $8400/dt.

Think "military surplus". At gun shows right now the price for SKS
rifles ranges from $100 to $200. That's *retail*. 

Given the tech level variations in Traveller, I'm certain that when the
miltary upgrades their weapons (say, switching from the M-1 Garand, to
the M-16), the surplus weapons are readily sold to planets who want to
upgrade from older weapons. 

There are folks right here on earth who make a good living taking
working but "obsolete" equipment and selling it to countries where it's
an *upgrade*. Every step-by-step and crossbar phone exchange that has
been replaced by a digital exchange here in the US, has had a ready
market in the third world. It's much better than manual switchboards,
it's built to last, and all the "quirks" are well known.

Given the right sort of spread of tech levels among some "close"
worlds, a trader could make a nice living doing this. Sell the TL-11
"junk" from the TL-12 world to the TL-11 world, buy TL-10 "junk" there
to sell to the TL-10 world, and so on, until he hits the low tech end
and fills up on minerals, or art or gemstones, or some such.

The megacorps won't be interested, as it's a "margin" type market. But
just consider. How much would *anybody* in WWII have paid for Vietnam
era tanks and APCs. Or planes? Or.... Then you take all the Mustangs,
and Sherman tanks and sell them to the WWI era folks. :-)

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 01:09:16 PST
Subject: Re: Big Rock vs Little RockS

anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman) writes:

> 2: Faster atmospheric vaporization. earth gets hit by TONS of rock per
> year, and most of it becomes vapor in the atmosphere. 99%+. What hits is
> the largest chunks. Since surface vaporization losses are based upon
> surface area, and smaller items have more survace area by volume, and mass
> is linked to volume rather than surface area, smaller chunks will dissapate
> more easily.
> 
> 10 chunks of 0.5 tone each do not equal 1 chunk of 5 tons; the simple fact
> that the .5 tonners will probably be 0.25 tons each by impact on a standard
> atmosphere, where the 5 ton will propably be about 4... (figures themselves
> not accurate, but illustrative to known theories of chemical and themal
> degradation of objects.

Trouble is, you've just *increased* the amount of energy deposited in
the atmosphere. Since we are talking about "dinosaur killers", not city
killers, this is a *significant* point. 

True, the earth gets hit by tons of rock per year. But we are talking
about *gigatons* of rock, in a few seconds (assuming big slow rock)

If it's a fractional c rock, then it doesn't matter, because the
energies involved make splitting the rock *far* more dangerous. See
other posts.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 01:16:07 PST
Subject: Re: Imperial Symbols

Michael Bailey <mickb@thehub.com.au> writes:

> Ministry of Colonisation:  The Imperial Sunburst in green, with a stylised
> gold sheaf of wheat inside.

What? Not the "broad arrow"? :-)


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 01:22:30 PST
Subject: Re: Engineers!

eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) writes:

> On 06/21/96 at 03:19 PM,  Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> said:
> 
> >On the other hand, this one ship is the whole world for this little
> >company (or individual).  I would not be surprised to see a skilled
> >and knowledgeable(sp) engineer on the ship because the very life of
> >the owner depends on the maintenance of the ship.  A single engineer
> >is not a problem or issue.  I think any jump capeable ship will have
> >at least (minimal) a crew of three: Pilot, Astrogator(navigator), and
> >Engineer.  Add passengers and you'l need a Steward.  In system craft
> >under 200 tons could probably get by with a crew of two: Pilot and
> >Engineer.
> 
> Yes! <g>
> 
> A small tramp freighter might get by with a couple of folks with
> engineering/technical skills, and nobody with the *title* Engineer,
> but the skills *have* to be covered.  If I were the owner/operator,
> I'd skimp on something else before I skimped on having a qualified
> Engineer in my crew.

A point that *far* too many overlook is that your *life* depends on the
ship functioning. Most folks on earth just can't grasp the basic
mindset that well. Read "Flatlander" by Lary Niven for an example of
the attitude difference between a spacer and the typical *well
informed* person from a benign planet like Earth.

Starships and spaceships are not cars. If your car has a catastrophic
failure, you may die, more likely you get hurt in the crash and get
pulled out. If it has a major failure, you get out and curse at the
thing, then call for help. If it has a minor failure, you fix it when
it gets annoying enough.

Starships and spaceships are not ships. If a ship has a catastrophic
failure, you get into the lifeboats. If it has a major failure, you sit
there and try to fix it, if you can't, you radio for help. If it has a
minor failure, you fix it while underway unless it's *really* minor.

Starships and spaceships are not airliners. On an airliner, if there's
a catastrophic failure, you're dead. If there's a major failure, you
try to land, if there's a minor failure you fix it when you reach your
destination. 

Starships and spaceships are not subs. If a sub has a catastrophic
failure, you die. If it has a major failure, you probably die. If it
has a minor failure, you try to fix it *now*.

Subs do come close though.

On a starship or spacehip, you are dependent on the ship working
properly for food, water, heat, air, and pressure. If something goes
wrong with the drives, you can run out of food, water, and air unless
you have *very* good recycling, and can fix the drive.

If something goes wrong with life support, you can last weeks with no
food. Days with no water. Hours with no temp control (whether you
freeze or bake depends on circumstances). You can only last *minutes*
with no air, and *seconds* with no pressure (ie, you may be able to
hold your breath for 5 to 15 minutes, but you get into trouble from low
pressure in less than 2 minutes).

Therefore, anything on a starship or spaceship that falls under the
heading "engineering" is *vital* to your continued life.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 01:44:58 PST
Subject: Re: Trading Question/Poll

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) writes:

> Just a quick question/poll as to preferences:
> 
> I was looking at my trading system, which currently has all prices on a per
> cubic metre basis, and wondered if it would be easier if prices were given
> per lot instead?  (Or even, gasp, per displacement ton, although I've always
> found that concept confusing - you know, tonne mass, displacement ton
> volume...)
> 
> Anyway, what do people think?  Prices based on volume would make comparisons
> between different cargos easier, prices based on lots would make calculations
> for a particular cargo easier.
> 
> And should I go with cubic metres or displacement tons as the base unit of
> volume?  A big advantage of kL is that it allows smaller cargos without
> fractions.

I'd go with *some* sort of volume based unit. Remember, standardized
cargo containers are likely to be the order of the day. Current
containers look to be about 2.5x2.5x8 meters (and half sized ones only
4 meters long). That gives 25 cubic meters and 50 cubic meters for
sizes. Make the lengths 4.5 and 9 meters and you get shipping
containers that are 2 and 4 displacement tons in size. I kind of like
that idea. 

"Original" Td was 1.5x3x3, which gives us the following sizes:
1 Td	3x3x1.5
2 Td	3x3x3
4 Td	3x3x6

Cargo holds will be designed to hold whole numbers of standard shipping
containers. And by doing so, they'll make it a lot easier for everyone.
No worrying about how to cram things in, no worrying that containers
will break under "normal" handling or accelerations. Etc. And you can
"seal" the containers to show if they've been tampered with.

"bulk" cargoes (grain and other powders, liquids, etc) will go into
specialized tanks or holds, or else they'll be packed into standard
containers. 

The only things likely to *not* be packed into containers are small,
*very* valuable items, which will go in the ship's safe/vault.

Oh yeah, there should also be a surcharge for any cargo that masses
more than the 10 ton/Td "slop" value. It should be based on how much
the cargo is heavy. The reason being that one "heavy" container means
that unless enough others are "light", the ship will have "empty" hold
space (remember, the manuever drive is based on the ship averaging no
more that 10 tonne/Td).

If you've got a varied cargo, you may waive the surcharge, as long as
the average works. If you have a bunch of heavy containers, but still
haven't "massed out", you might even offer a discount rate for
lightweight cargo just to fill the hold (less chance of things shifting
when the hold is full).

There are two conditions that indicate when you are "full". One is
"massing out". That means that you've got as much cargo mass as you can
handle, regardless of how much space is left it the hold.

The other is "bulking out". That means that you've filled the hold,
regardless of how much more mass you could carry. 

Let's assume a 100 Td hold (and the corresponding 1000 tonne mass limit).
100 Td is 1400 m^3. 

1400 m^3 of platinum is 30,800 tonnes. Obviuosly, you'll "mass out"
long before you bulk out. In fact, you can only haul 3.25 TD of
platinum before reaching the 1000 tonne limit.

On the other hand, if you've got a cargo of, say, cotton underwear, you
are going to bulk out *long* before you mass out. In fact, you'll bulk
out on anything with a density of less than .7 tonnes/m^3 and mass out
with anything with a density higher than that (water has a density of 1
tonne/m^3).


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 02:40:18 PST
Subject: Re: PDF

Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> writes:

> On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, David J. Golden wrote:
> > >
> > >   Do you want a copy of my PDF file when I'm finished playing with the
> > >idea? Ship designs, operations outlines, attitudes, frequency of
> > >encounter, Port Authority procedures, etc...
> > 
> >         YES! Tho' maybe something other than PDF?
> 
>    What did you have in mind? Something like the Coast Guard? Spaceways
> Authority? Hmm...

PDF is some sort of oddball file format. I can't recal *what* uses it
right now, but something does, and that's why I was thinking similar
things. 

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@berzerk.lm.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 16:56:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: PDF

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> 
> PDF is some sort of oddball file format. I can't recal *what* uses it
> right now, but something does, and that's why I was thinking similar
> things. 


It is Adobe's Portable Document Format.  Not all that oddball 8-).
Readers are available for Windows, Macs and Os/2, including a netscape
plugin.  There may be a *nix version too.


> 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 17:22:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Heads up on how to make QSDS ships profitable at 1000Cr per ton

>  I'll post designs once I'm sure my spreadsheet works. (Any
>volunteers to test it? You need Lotus 1-2-3.)

I'll test the stuff.  I've got 1-2-3...
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
+-+-+-
PERSON: Peter L. Berghold         EMPLOYER: Teleport Communiations Group
PHONE : [Work] (718) 355-2722  [Home] (908) 918-0622
FAX   :        (718) 355-4282         (908) 918-1057 (call first)
EMAIL : peterb@superlink.net  -or- berghold@tcg.com 
URL   : http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb  


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:55:28 -0800
Subject: Re: Trin's Veil as Asteroid Defense.

On 22 Jun 96 at 22:27, derek stanley spewed:

> What exactly is Trin's Veil?  I know that Trin is a planet in the Spinward
> Marches, and that Trin's Veil is the name of the sub-sector it's in and that
> the subsector is renamed Trin's Shroud after Trin get's the bejesus beat out
> of it by a Ziru Sirkaan battle ship named Kishkii.  The ship is a Vampire
> just incase you didn't guess.
> 

I'm sure that somebody's going to correct me with a canonical 
impression, but I got the impression it was something akin to the 
Aurora Borealis here on old Terra...

Anybody with a better or more canonical explanation?

Stu

 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:55:29 -0800
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On 22 Jun 96 at 22:51, derek stanley spewed:

> 
> >   Agreed - as long as the character gets starting skills appropriate to
> >the character class. One thing that really bugged me about CT was
> >generating a marine grunt without gun combat, or a Navy medic without
> >medic, or a navy pilot without Pilot ;-) you get the drift.
> 

What, you mean every single person in the navy's medical service is a 
surgeon?  Every marine truck driver is so skilled with a rifle that 
he qualifies as a sniper?  You mean the grunt who works in the 57th 
century equivalent of the bilges can pilot a ship through an asteroid 
belt while being shot at by a BattleRider?

Not every character is going to develop the same level of skills.  
OK, I agree with you, there should be a few more default skills.  
Marines are all taught to use a rifle.  Give them combat rifleman-1 
if you wish as a default.  Maybe you give a person in the medical 
corps a skill of Medic-1 (although there are going to be people in 
the naval medical corps who do little more than administrative tasks, 
so maybe not).  But I can't see any way that you can justify giving 
every single person who mans a gun, or repairs an engine Pilot-1.  
Perhaps a better solution is to let them choose a default skill that 
would reflect their specialty, after the fact...  The navy guy who 
specialized in engineering...give him the choice of adding +1 to his 
skill in engineering, or maybe mechanical or electronics.  Same thing 
with gunners, and so on.  

> >   Personally, I still think the player's going to have more fun
> >generating a character where he has a _choice_. Also the richer skill set
> >and better granularity of TNE allow more detailed characters without
> >getting imbalanced.

>From what we've been told die rolling will not be strictly mandatory. 
 And if it is, so what...  Let 'em pick anyways if that is your 
preference...

> >> The RC is a military background.  So little mention is made of the RC 
> >> as an economic entity, even in Path of Tears, that the player has to 
> >> take a wild guess.  GDW did NO design work on the economic system.  
> >> The trade and commerce section was lifted virtually verbatim from the 
> >> pages of MT Referees' Manual, which itself was basically Merchant 
> >> Prince with a bit of chrome...
> 
> This is absolutly true.  The only thing you could do being a merchant was
> shuffle bat guano from Spencer to Fija or head out into the wilds and become
> Moe Money, travelling merchant and information source for the RC.
> 

My point exactly.  Hell, the only real traders in the RC (the Guild) 
are considered the villains in the game.  Facts are that in any real 
recovery of empire, you're going to win a lot more hearts with trade 
than with gunfire...

> Most of the early infections took place through the IFF transponder units
> and most of the original virus's lay dormant for weeks "feeling out their
> surroundings".  The problem that I always had with it was how did the
> silicon suddenly become alive?  Suspension of disbelief always took a
> pounding on this one.

Yup, this is the weak point.  

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #144
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 23 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 145

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Engineers!
         2. Re: Trading Question/Poll
         3. Re: Big Rock vs Little RockS
         4. Re: TNE differences
         5. Re: Engineers!
         6. Trade System: Creating Trade Tables
         7. Trade System: Description & Example
         8. Re: PDF
         9. Re: death in CGen and MT Hit Locatios
        10. Trade System: Cargo Lot Sizes & Tables
        11. Re: PDF
        12. Re: TNE differences

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:48:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Engineers!

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Therefore, anything on a starship or spaceship that falls under the
> heading "engineering" is *vital* to your continued life.

[Applause]  One needs to remember that space is fundamentally inhospitable
to life as we know it.  No man is an island, but star/space-ships sure
are.  If the little island you fly around in the big black empty with
springs a leak, you either have someone on board who can fix it right
quick, or stick your head between your legs and kiss your sorry arse
goodbye.

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:57:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Trading Question/Poll

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Cargo holds will be designed to hold whole numbers of standard shipping
> containers. And by doing so, they'll make it a lot easier for everyone.
> No worrying about how to cram things in, no worrying that containers
> will break under "normal" handling or accelerations. Etc. And you can
> "seal" the containers to show if they've been tampered with.
>
> "bulk" cargoes (grain and other powders, liquids, etc) will go into
> specialized tanks or holds, or else they'll be packed into standard
> containers.

Anyone know any stevedores or longshoremen?  Ask them how modern
freighters are loaded.  The logistics of loading a freighter get
ridiculously painful when one considers that a freighter will stop at a
veritable smorgasbord of ports, both offloading and taking on freight at
each stop.  The containers they use pretty much have to be standardized to
allow for the most efficient usage of space, and so they can be packed so
that the shipment of tricycles you have to offload isn't buried under
those reactor core assemblies that you don't have to offload.  Ever wonder
why dockworkers get paid so well (union aside)?  Because they have to deal
with all this nonsense.

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 16:06:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Big Rock vs Little RockS

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> If it's a fractional c rock, then it doesn't matter, because the
> energies involved make splitting the rock *far* more dangerous. See
> other posts.

What is really needed is an orbital "mechanic" in deep system with a mass
driver sufficiently powerful to "engineer" a new trajectory for the rock.
Have him do some dirty math and then smack another rock into your
"dinosaur killer" just enough to send it past the planet.  Granted, this
has some problems...  First, it'd have to be a HUGE (anti-rock)
rock-slinger.  Second, the guy would have to be ballistic wizard (two
shots at the very most).  And finally, it very likely that the system
would then have a very ugly and unpredictable orbiting body (i.e. comet)
that could come back to haunt them.

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 16:20:31 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE differences

>> >   Agreed - as long as the character gets starting skills appropriate to
>> >the character class. One thing that really bugged me about CT was
>> >generating a marine grunt without gun combat, or a Navy medic without
>> >medic, or a navy pilot without Pilot ;-) you get the drift.
>> 
>
>What, you mean every single person in the navy's medical service is a 
>surgeon?  Every marine truck driver is so skilled with a rifle that 
>he qualifies as a sniper?  You mean the grunt who works in the 57th 
>century equivalent of the bilges can pilot a ship through an asteroid 
>belt while being shot at by a BattleRider?

No, you've missed the point Stu.  This guy was a medic and he'd didn't have
any medical skills.  Couldn't even lift a litter properly.  It was pretty
funny, he'd been so focused on  making a cool character he forgot to pickup
any medical skills at all.

>> >   Personally, I still think the player's going to have more fun
>> >generating a character where he has a _choice_. Also the richer skill set
>> >and better granularity of TNE allow more detailed characters without
>> >getting imbalanced.
>
>My point exactly.  Hell, the only real traders in the RC (the Guild) 
>are considered the villains in the game.  Facts are that in any real 
>recovery of empire, you're going to win a lot more hearts with trade 
>than with gunfire...

Not true there's the Free Trader's Network.  An invaluable source of
information on the "wilds" and a damn set of heavy drinkers in the
starports.  There are also plenty of Merchants from the RC plying the wilds.
Look at Cardovan Rink, the problem is the game tends not to focus on these
men and women.  Even the RCES is supposed to be a quasi mercantile
opperation.  I'm not sure what information is contained in the World Tamers
Handbook.  I know POT contains info on all kinds of operations on most
worlds in the AO.  Lets face it though it's the Smash and Grabs that get the
attention.

>> Most of the early infections took place through the IFF transponder units
>> and most of the original virus's lay dormant for weeks "feeling out their
>> surroundings".  The problem that I always had with it was how did the
>> silicon suddenly become alive?  Suspension of disbelief always took a
>> pounding on this one.
>
>Yup, this is the weak point.  

I like the idea, but I could never properly reconsile that aspect.  I guess
you've just got to beleive and clik your heals together three times.

DS


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@berzerk.lm.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:22:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Engineers!

My players are more than welcome to take their ship out without a
dedicated engineer. They are also welcome to play with fusion guns with no
skill, or enter air locks without a vac suit.

Its up to them.


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 23 Jun 1996 19:13:08 GMT
Subject: Trade System: Creating Trade Tables

Creating a Trade Table

As a minimum, every world should have a trade table. Particularly detailed
worlds can have a trade table for every country, or even for every major
city. 

1.     Select the table size. 
2.     For every entry in the table, determine the general good category. 
3.     For every entry in the table, determine specific good characteristics.

As always, rolling the dice is a substitute for imagination. At any time feel
free to select a result, or to make one up completely. 

The universe is full of unique products. Many of these are suitable for but a
single planet, or are not worth the cost of transporting them to another
star. However, the vagaries of history and economics can lead to bizarre
situations. For example, in the 19th century laundry was shipped from
California to Hawaii, while during the Roman Empire urine (used for fulling
togas) was shipped from Spain to Italy! Part of the fun of Traveller is
devising logical explanations for apparently bizarre circumstances. 

1. Select the table size

In general, larger economies will produce a greater variety of exports. This
is reflected in the table size. Note that the population is that of the
economic unit referred to by the table: thus, most cities will have smaller
table than countries. (But a big city on a high population planet will have a
larger economy - and thus a larger table - than an entire low population
world.) 

The number of dice thrown for a trade table is the population number of the
planet (or country). Thus, a table for a population 1 world is numbered from
1-6, while a table for a population 4 world is numbered 4-24. 

2. Determine the general good category

There are several ways of categorizing goods. I selected the system used in
Grand Survey, mainly because DGP included tables to determine if a particular
resource was present on a world, then expanded it to include the
MegaTraveller categories. These categories are: 
*     natural agricultural
*     natural ores
*     natural radioactives
*     natural gems & crystals
*     natural petrochemical
*     processed agricultural
*     processed ores & alloys
*     processed agroproducts
*     manufactured weapons
*     manufactured mechanical parts
*     manufactured heavy equipment
*     manufactured electronics
*     manufactured gravitics
*     information
Spread the categories throughout the table. Place the most common categories
in the centre (they will be rolled more frequently). 

3. Determine specific good characteristics

Use the following checklist to detail the specific characteristics of a trade
good. 

1.     Select a good from the appropriate table. 

     Note: Not all goods on a resource table are equally likely. Strike a
balance between goods being common enough to be available and unusual enough
to be available to a tramp trader. 

2.     Copy the good type, resale DMs, and density to the trade table. 

3.     Roll for lot size. 

4.     Roll on the actual value table for the base price. Use the same dice
roll, including the purchase DMs, to calculate the base cost. (The base cost
will always be lower than the base price - otherwise the good wouldn't be an
export!) multiply these amounts by the lot size to get the cost and price per
lot. 

5.     Determine any special handling requirements. 

6.     Name the good. Be creative: this is where you make the item come alive
for your players. "Poisson-fue", "braidbark", and "breadroot" evoke images of
exotic life forms; "grapple grommets", "QS12a Gravitron Units", and "fusion
coupler gaskets" imply essential industrial components. 


NOTE: Tables will follow once I figure out an easy way to convert them to
formatted ASCII.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 23 Jun 1996 19:12:18 GMT
Subject: Trade System: Description & Example

This is basically the same file I posted last week, with a few
corrections/enhancements.

- ----------

Interstellar trading has been part of Traveller since the beginning. The
original system described in Book 2 of Classic Traveller provided for
specific trade goods with individually varying values. The later Book 7
(Merchant Prince) system changed this to generic goods differentiated only on
their sourceworld. 

Being Nicholas van Rijn fans, my group preferred the original system. Using
an idea from FASA's Merchant Class Ships, we created a trade system based on
unique trade tables for every world. These tables allow individual economies
to appear, without slowing down the game session. (All the world of creating
a table is done between sessions, just as with animal encounter tables.) 

Enhanced Trading

The successful trader buys low and sells high. Anything else leads to
bankruptcy. 

That said, the purpose of trading in Traveller is to have fun. Trading should
never be a mechanical process of rolling dice and calculating financial
statements. If trading is not a core element in the current adventure, then
use the basic trade rules (ie. Merchant Prince/MegaTraveller). These enhanced
rules are intended to add greater flavour, variety, and most importantly
chances for adventure. 

Trading Process

The mechanics of trading are handled by tasks. However, the referee should
strive to integrate these into the adventure, rather than making them simple
die-roll hurdles to be overcome. 

Task Difficulty

The ease with which goods can be moved is governed by the size of the
economy. To reflect this, many tasks have a difficulty of "<population>",
which means that the task difficulty is based on the population code as
follows:

     Lo     Difficult
     Mod     Routine
     Hi     Simple

Any of the following steps can be turned into an adventure: 

1.     Find a possible cargo
2.     Negotiate a price
3.     Load the cargo
4.     Jump to another system
5.     Find a potential buyer
6.     Negotiate a price
7.     Unload the cargo
8.     Collect payment

Finding a cargo

The first step is to find a decent cargo. This system assumed that there are
many possible cargos, but the players are looking for something with
extraordinary profit potential. As well, regular shipments of standard items
will, in settled space, probably be carried by a regular freighter with a
contract (ie. a subsidized liner). Thus, what the players are picking up are
the fortuitous crumbs of trade that slip between the megacorporations'
fingers. 

To find a potential cargo:
<population>.  Trading, Streetwise. 3 hours.
Referee:  Several characters can pool their efforts. Use the highest skill in
each category for the success roll, but total all skills for the time roll.
(The extra help means several leads can be followed up simultaneously.) 

Notice that finding a cargo will, on average, occupy a single individual for
most of a week. If a cargo is not found, or if the players do not like the
one they do find, another attempt can be made with the usual penalties for
retrying. 

If the players find a cargo, choose one from the world's trade table. 

Negotiating a price

Once a cargo is found, then a price must be negotiated. While this will, in
many cases, be the lowest one possible, circumstances might warrant paying a
bit more. Possibly the players feel sorry for a real hard-luck case. Possibly
they want to cement an ongoing business arrangement. Possibly they learn that
the seller has a cousin in the starport engineering department*

Canny players will want to investigate the goods (and the seller) before
making a deal. Possibly the goods are defective, or stolen. Possibly *

To investigate the goods:
Routine. Admin/Legal, appropriate skill. 15 minutes. (uncertain)
Referee:  An appropriate skill is one that relates to the goods being bought.
Gravitics for grav modules, Prospecting for ores, and so on. 

Actual Value Tables                         
Stable          Standard          Volatile     
Roll     Value     Roll     Value     Roll     Value
2      75%     2      40%     2      10%
3      80%     3      50%     3      20%
4      85%     4      70%     4      40%
5      90%     5      80%     5      60%
6      95%     6      90%     6      80%
7     100%     7     100%     7     100%
8     105%     8     110%     8     120%
9     110%     9     120%     9     140%
10     115%     10     130%     10     160%
11     120%     11     150%     11     200%
12     125%     12     170%     12     300%
13     130%     13     200%     13     400%
14     140%     14     300%     14     600%
15     150%     15     400%     15     800%

The markets for different commodities vary, to reflect this there are three
actual value tables. Most goods use the standard table. Goods with stable
markets are indicated by an "S" following their price; these goods use the
stable table. Goods with volatile markets are indicated by an "V" following
their price; these goods use the volatile table. 

Rather than a task, a simple die roll is used to set a price. Roll two dice,
modify the total by all appropriate factors, and find the percentage value on
the correct actual value table. Multiply the base cost by the indicated
amount. The Bargaining skill of the players' negotiator is a negative
modifier (tends to lower cost); the Bargaining skill of the seller'
negotiator is a positive modifier (tends to increase cost). 

Loading the cargo

This is relatively straightforward, unless the cargo has special requirements
or is illegal. In each case the referee must adjudicate the requirements.
Don't be afraid to use a bit of humour; after all, players who have bought
2000 live rabbits without the cages deserve everything coming to them! 

One enhancement I use is to make the players pack their cargo hold. To do
this I use deck plans and cardboard templates. After a couple of days spent
loading sacks of grain (by hand - because the low-tech cargo robot kept
tearing the sacks) my players invested in a couple of standard shipping
containers.

Jumping to another system

Covered in other rules (specifically Starship Operators Manual). 

Finding a potential buyer

Posting a notice on the starport computer net will probably find a buyer, but
a better price can be obtained with a little salesmanship. 

To find a potential buyer:
<population>.  Trading, Streetwise. 3 hours.
Referee:  Several characters can pool their efforts. Use the highest skill in
each category for the success roll, but total all skills for the time roll.
(The extra help means several leads can be followed up simultaneously.) 

Notice that selling a cargo will, on average, occupy a single individual for
most of a week. If a buyer is not found, or if the players do not like the
one they do find, another attempt can be made with the usual penalties for
retrying. 

Negotiating a price

Once a buyer is found, then a price must be negotiated. While this will, in
many cases, be the highest one possible, circumstances might warrant paying a
bit more. Possibly the players feel sorry for a real hard-luck case. Possibly
they want to cement an ongoing business arrangement. Possibly they learn that
the buyer has a cousin in the starport engineering department*

Canny players will want to investigate the buyer before making a deal. Do
they always pay on time?

To investigate the buyer:
Routine. Admin/Legal, Streetwise. 15 minutes. (uncertain)

The markets for different commodities vary, to reflect this there are three
actual value tables. Most goods use the standard table. Goods with stable
markets are indicated by an "S" following their price; these goods use the
stable table. Goods with volatile markets are indicated by an "V" following
their price; these goods use the volatile table. 

Rather than a task, a simple die roll is used to set a price. Roll two dice,
modify the total by all appropriate factors, and find the percentage value on
the correct actual value table. Multiply the base price by the indicated
amount. The Bargaining skill of the players' negotiator is a positive
modifier (tends to increase price); the Bargaining skill of the buyer's
negotiator is a negative modifier (tends to decrease price). 

Unloading the cargo

As with loading, this is relatively straightforward, unless the cargo has
special requirements or is illegal. In each case the referee must adjudicate
the requirements. Illegal cargos should certainly be role-played! 

Collecting the payment

Again, this should be relatively straightforward. However, don't neglect the
fun of individual planetary currencies. Difranian marks are probably not
legal tender off-planet, so the players may be forced into buying another
speculative cargo*

Example Trading Session

The players' starship is grounded at Genese on Echiste, a water-world in
Lanth/Spinward Marches. While the engineer overhauls the jump drive, the
purser heads into town to look for a profitable cargo. 

Echiste is a low population world, making this a Difficult task (11+). The
purser has Trading-3 and Streetwise-3. The referee rolls a 5 for success;
only her high skills let the purser find cargo here. The time roll is 16
(less 6 for skills) for a total of 30 hours. The purser is in a hurry,
working 10-hour days, so it will be three days before she finds a cargo. 

Rather than simply rolling the dice and announcing the result, the referee
describes the startown district and general flavour of Genese , giving a
brief but vivid description of how weary the purser is trotting after leads,
visiting grungy warehouses, and so forth. The referee rolls for encounters,
and on the third day gets a street gang. Sensing an opportunity for
adventure, he improvises. 

"On your way back from talking to M. LeFarge, one of seedier local sashimi
brokers, you see a scruffy man, mid-forties, ringed by leather-clad young
punks. 'Donnez moi, gramps,' snarls the leader as he swings a chain."

The purser is feeling heroic. "I pull out my deck-sweeper, fire a round into
the ground, then cover the gang. 'Another day, boys,' I smile. 'You're up
past your bedtime.' I jerk the muzzle down the passage."

The referee quickly rolls a morale check for the gang. They fail. "They glare
at you, but back away. 'Another day, midons,' growls the leader, 'another
day.' They rumble down the passage, making out like they were leaving anyway.

"Their victim breathes a sigh of relief. 'Merci beaucoup, madamoiselle, je
pense que j'ai morte.' He notices your shipsuit. 'Ah, vous etes une voyageur!
Please to excuse my manners. I am Jean-Guy Morseau, a simple coureur des
fonds waylaid while peddling my poisson-fue. I have much for to thank you;
this trip I capture deux - 'ow you say, two? But of course, I must buy you a
drink. Come, ma cousine has a little bistro*' He leads you off*"

The contact is made. Poisson-fue is a delicacy, live animals bringing a
premium price on Regina. And who better to teach the players how to keep one
alive than Jean-Guy? 


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 23 Jun 1996 19:19:31 GMT
Subject: Re: PDF

>It is Adobe's Portable Document Format.  Not all that oddball 8-).
>Readers are available for Windows, Macs and Os/2, including a netscape
>plugin.  There may be a *nix version too.

The Mac PDF reader is incredibly bloated - takes up 10 times the space of my
word processor/DTP package!  

PDF also stands for "Pigs Don't Fly" - and on my computer, this pig gets no
disk space!

------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 16:09:04 -0800
Subject: Re: death in CGen and MT Hit Locatios

>>PS. I hear characters will no longer risk death during generation. Am I the
>only person >who LOVED the fact that they could kick the bucket before the
>game even started?
>
>No -- I loved it, too!  I'll probably add it back in.

I will add it in as well... as an injury avoidance roll... Hey, Marc, you
listening?   <G> Might make a good JTAS article... "Chances of significant
injury during Prior Service".

>>To me, this was the risk you took in trying to come up with a pumped-up
>>"Super Character." The time alone you'd spend creating your character meant
>>that you didn't want to take that one last crap shoot and risk losing your
>>beloved creation.

Like glenn, I agree with this basic assumption. MTJ4 had some rules on
location and severity, but something like miss by 1=1d mishap; mis by 2=sd
mishap; miss by 4+=3d mishap; random location...

I like that hit locations table, and use it. Reprinting it here for comment
and comparison to TNE's
MTJ Hit Locations       Chest Sub-Locations
2       R Hand          1-2     Heart
3       R foot/shin     3-5     Lungs (l/r random)
4       R arm           6       Heart & Both Lungs
5       R Leg
6       abdomen*        Head/Neck Sub-locations         Abdomen
7       chest*          1       R Eye                   1d-2 organs hit
8       head/Neck*      2       L Eye                   no table; GM must
9       L Leg           3       R Ear                   determine.
10      L Arm           4       L Ear
11      L Foot/shin     5       throat
12      L Hand          6       Roll twice more

I added another step to taking damage:
when a given location takes damage: the damage rating is the difficulty
level of retaining function of that location.
1= Simple       2= Routine      3= Difficult    4= Formidable   5= Impossible
6+= No chance at all

<Difficulty>, End, Toughness (New Skill), Unskilled OK, Hazardous, Fateful,
Instant
Referee: on a failure, roll a mishap of 2d; on a crit fail, roll a 3d
mishap. This is the level of damage to that location (no extra hits or
attribute mods apply, and no damage iincrease occurs). On a minor, the
location is unable to be utilized consciously (but autonomic systems like
heart, lungs, etc continue to function, possibly at reduced level) and no
additional treatment is needed. On a major mishap, the body part is still
there, but no longer working. On a Destroyed mishap, the limb is missing,
or the organ need to be replaced, it cannot be healed. Trivial mishaps
indicate the limb is not usefull for 1d6 rounds. Major mishaps require some
kind of therapy or medical treatment.

Toughness (falls under Special Combat, Inborn, and/or Physical)
This skill is the ability to withstand abusive physical punishment and keep
functioning. While the system shock is not negated, it indicates a much
better ability to function after trauma.

To Remain conscious when Unc Threshold has been hit:
Difficult, End, TOughness, Instant, Fateful, Semi-safe,
Referee: if made, the character may continue to function, at +1 Diff.
        If failed character is unconscious.
        Roll no mishaps, unless character must remain conscious to avoid
        some other hazard.

Just some related ideas.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 23 Jun 1996 19:45:30 GMT
Subject: Trade System: Cargo Lot Sizes & Tables

OK, the votes seem to be in:

Costs and prices should be given in terms of lots.  

Lot volumes should be in cubic metres/kilolitres, but the increments should
fit into standard shipping containers.  (25kL and 50kL seem reasonable -
roughly 2 and 4 displacement tons.)

I think I'll use kilolitres, just because you can write "kL" in ASCII, while
without superscripting "m3" looks a bit odd.

Although I'm still working on converting my current table to ASCII, I'll
describe the format here.  Each item is actually a column on the table:

Good Type: A nice generic type of good.  For example, grain, rice, manoc,
potatos and corn are all "bulk carbohydrate". 

Lot Number: Expressed as a dice throw for the trade table.  Eg. "4D".

Lot Size: Given as a number or a formula - must be resolved into a number for
the trade table. Eg. "1D x 50".

Base Price: This is given in credits per kilolitre, because the lot size may
change.  Must be multiplied by lot size for trade table.  

Purchase DMs: As given in the Book 2 system.  Could also expand to include
other world trade codes, starport types, etc.

Resale DMs: As per Book 2.

Handling: A list of handling requirements and probabilities (from MT), to be
rolled and determined when the table is being created.  Eg. "Fla 6+, Exp 4+".

So, as an example, an entry might be:

Good Type         Number  Size     Base Price   Purchase DMs     Resale DMs  
 Handling
Bulk Carbohydrate  5D     1D x 50     20        A-2, Na+1, I+2     A-2       
 Fla 6+, Exp 4+

Lets say that this is a good found on an agricultural world.  The referee
copies the good type to the trade table.  

He then rolls for the lot size, getting 4 x 50 = 200 kL as the base lot size
(8 displacement tons).  He copies the number and lot size to the trade table:
5D x 200 is the lot entry on the trade table (indicating 5D worth of 200 kL
lots).  

He rolls for price and gets a 10.  Looking up 8 (10 - 2) on the actual value
table yields 110%, so the lots cost 200kL x 110% x 20Cr = 4800Cr each ==>
this is the base cost.

Looking up 10 on the actual value table yields 130%, so the lots will sell
for an avergae of 200kL x 130% x 20Cr = 5200Cr each ==> this is the base
price.

He copies the resale DMs directly to the trade table.

He then rolls 2D for each of the handling codes, getting 7 and 2
respectively.  This good is flamable but not explosive.  (How can bulk
carbohydrate explode?  Ever see a grain silo blow up?)

His 5-year-old neice comes up with the name "purple gumroot".

So, the final entry for the trade table is:

Purple Gumroot (bulk carbohydrate)     4800Cr/5200Cr     A-2     Fla   5D x
200

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 19:01:47 -0600
Subject: Re: PDF

On 06/23/96 at 02:40 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>> > 
>> >         YES! Tho' maybe something other than PDF?
>> 
>>    What did you have in mind? Something like the Coast Guard? Spacew
>> Authority? Hmm...

>PDF is some sort of oddball file format. I can't recal *what* uses it
>right now, but something does, and that's why I was thinking similar
>things. 

Adobe Acrobat, I think.

I thought the same thing at first, but finally figured it out. Aren't
acronyms fun? <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 17:09:43 -0800
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On 23 Jun 96 at 16:20, derek stanley spewed:

> >What, you mean every single person in the navy's medical service is a 
> >surgeon?  Every marine truck driver is so skilled with a rifle that 
> >he qualifies as a sniper?  You mean the grunt who works in the 57th 
> >century equivalent of the bilges can pilot a ship through an asteroid 
> >belt while being shot at by a BattleRider?
> 
> No, you've missed the point Stu.  This guy was a medic and he'd didn't have
> any medical skills.  Couldn't even lift a litter properly.  It was pretty
> funny, he'd been so focused on  making a cool character he forgot to pickup
> any medical skills at all.

Oh... Sounds like the player who rolled him up or designed him kind 
of cooked his own goose a bit then...  Even with the roll the dice 
and hope you get the right skills method, you're going to enhance 
your chances by picking the right table to roll from...  If you're 
spending 75% of your skill rolls as a navy medic trying to get 
Brawling/Blade Combat et al, you're kind of asking for trouble...

> >> >   Personally, I still think the player's going to have more fun
> >> >generating a character where he has a _choice_. Also the richer skill set
> >> >and better granularity of TNE allow more detailed characters without
> >> >getting imbalanced.

Probably, but I guess I've got a problem with somebody having the 
ability to go through the skill list and picking and choosing things 
like they were combing the aisles at K-Mart.  Also, its not all that 
realistic in military careers, where guys not getting the assignments 
they want are more the rule than the exception, in most cases...

> >My point exactly.  Hell, the only real traders in the RC (the Guild) 
> >are considered the villains in the game.  Facts are that in any real 
> 
> Not true there's the Free Trader's Network.  An invaluable source of
> information on the "wilds" and a damn set of heavy drinkers in the
> starports.  There are also plenty of Merchants from the RC plying the wilds.

OK, I forgot about the FTN.  But there's a lot more written on the 
Guild than the FTN...

> Look at Cardovan Rink, the problem is the game tends not to focus on these
> men and women.  Even the RCES is supposed to be a quasi mercantile
> opperation.  I'm not sure what information is contained in the World Tamers

Yup, so mercantile that battle dress is standard issue.  Not sure I 
buy this one at all Derek...

> Handbook.  I know POT contains info on all kinds of operations on most
> worlds in the AO.  Lets face it though it's the Smash and Grabs that get the
> attention.

WTH is a book that I overlooked in my earlier post.  Although I 
prefer the book that it stole most of its ideas from, WBH, as a 
whole, WTH was a pretty good supplement.  

> >Yup, this is the weak point.  
> 
> I like the idea, but I could never properly reconsile that aspect.  I guess
> you've just got to beleive and clik your heals together three times.

This is probably the single biggest reason that a lot of CT & MT 
players took a look at it and put the book back on the shelf...
I didn't, but a lot of people did...on the other hand, I haven't used it yet...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #145
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 23 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 146

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Trin's Veil
         2. Trin's Veil
         3. Re: TNE: WHat is it?
         4. Re: Trin's Veil
         5. Re: FF&S/QSDS Format Request
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #144
         7. Re: PDF
         8. Re: TNE differences
         9. Re: Trin's Veil
        10. Re: TNE: WHat is it?
        11. Re: FF&S/QSDS Format Request
        12. Re: TNE differences
        13. Re: TNE differences
        14. QSDS Recontact Squadron Essay (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 18:07:08 -0700
Subject: Trin's Veil

According to CANON (worship, grovel, make offering of burnt FASA
supplements), the planet Trin had an orbital ring.  This spectacular sight
provided the name for the subsector.  The name was changed to Trin's Shroud
after the Vampire Battleship leaked through a wasted the place.
# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #

------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 18:29:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Trin's Veil

>> What exactly is Trin's Veil?  I know that Trin is a planet in the Spinward  
>> Marches, and that Trin's Veil is the name of the sub-sector it's in and that
>> the subsector is renamed Trin's Shroud after Trin get's the bejesus beat out
>> of it by a Ziru Sirkaan battle ship named Kishkii.  The ship is a Vampire
>> just incase you didn't guess.

It *was* a vampire.  It *is* a bunch of widely-scattered slag. :)

> I'm sure that somebody's going to correct me with a canonical
> impression, but I got the impression it was something akin to the
> Aurora Borealis here on old Terra...

Somebody's going to correct you.  The aurora is caused by interactions
between Sol's stellar wind of charged particles, Earth's magnetic field,
and the upper atmosphere.  Basically, said particles get steered and
concentrated by the mag field into Earth's polar regions, where they
strike molecules in the upper atmosphere, which fluoresce.  The whole
thing is strikingly similar to how a TV picture tube operates, actually. 

Trin's Veil, on the other hand, is a hazy mass of dust which orbits Trin. 
It gives Trin a gauzy appearance from space, and produces nice effects
when seen at night from the surface.  This next part is non-canonical, but
this must be a very short-term phenomenon, as dust particles would quickly
be swept away by the solar wind around a habitable (and hence near the
star) world like Trin.  I estimate that the Veil couldn't have formed more
than about 10,000 years ago, tops. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: matth <matth@ritz.mordor.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:35:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TNE: WHat is it?

Hi William: 

Some questions about the chronology. 


> 
> >From:     matth@RITZ.MORDOR.COM
> >
> >Hi:
> >
> >Thank you very much.
> >
> >I think you have given me enuf information in that post to actually have
> >some idea of what they are talking about when they talk about TNE.
> >
> >When you say the Virus killed the Imperium does that mean that the
> >Rebellion from MT did not happen in TNE?
> >
> >Matthew
> 
> Brief Chronology for interim from MT to TNE:
> 1116:   Strephon's double assasinated (HT, SM)

So then TNE confirms that the New Strephon is the actual Strephon? 

> 1118:   Rebellion in fact; Vilani Ziru Sirkaa in place, factions crytalized
>         (MT, SM, HT)
> 1120:   Hard Times clooapse starting in regions outside safe zones (HT,SM)
> 1125:   Safe Zones Retreating, massive Economic collapse outside safe zones
>         (SM,HT, TNE)
> 1135:   Virus released by dulinor (accidentally and unknowingly); picked it up
>         during a raid on a research station which was developing it for lucan's

Too bad. I liked Dulinor. 
Did Lucan and the "real" Strephon survive the carnage? 


>         forces. Later killed by virus controlled machinery on Capitol/Core.
>         (SM, TNE)
> 1140:   Virus spread to borders of DD (Now Regency of Deneb); Stopped by
>         Regency Quarantine Service; Regency Psionics Ban lifts (Not yet public)

So the Zhodani did not take advantage of the chaos and attack Deneb? 

Was the Virus an intelligent collective organism capable of planning things
or did they simply reproduce and take over things? 

When did the Virus become intelligent? 

Imagine what the virus would have been like if the Imperium had FTL
communication. 


> 
> Basically, the virus acted by taking over HT worlds computerized systems,
> and killing humans however it could. Later variants (the virus is capable
> of sexual reproduction of sorts) came to use humans as tools, having
> overcome their own suicidal tendencies. On worlds that relied on computer
> controlled environments, external shipping, or robotics, they died either
> during the hard times or the tenure of the virus.
> 
> According to the text in TNE, the virus is all but dead by 1201; the tables
> indicate that the virus is alive and well during the 1201-1220 timeframe,
> and about 1 in 12 systems (assumes three encounter rolls per system) will
> have "vapires"; vampires are virus controlled ships or fleets; most of them
> imperial warships. Considering approximately 800 worlds are in "wilds" from
> the 1100 worlds of the imperium, that's a lot of virus.
> 
> Also, there is an area shown on the maps as "the black curtain"; the text
> says nothing that has gone in has come out; it's about a sector in sine,
> and near capitol.
> 
> This document is not meant to conflic with Marc Miller's nor Imperium
> Game's Trademarks on Traveller line. Thisdocument may be distributed
> freely, so long as the text is unaltered and the sig and disclaimer are
> intact.
> 
> William F. Hostman
> 
> Aramis@AsylumBBS.com
> 
> 
> 


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 18:40:40 -0700
Subject: Re: Trin's Veil

>According to CANON (worship, grovel, make offering of burnt FASA
>supplements), the planet Trin had an orbital ring.  This spectacular sight
>provided the name for the subsector.  The name was changed to Trin's Shroud
>after the Vampire Battleship leaked through a wasted the place.

Battle ship???  Hell it was a battle group, though it was only one ship that
did all the damage to Trin.  Sounds nice, orbital ring, poets would love the
place.

DS


------------------------------

From: "Robert Jolliffe" <fibbert@golden.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:52:03 +0000
Subject: Re: FF&S/QSDS Format Request

> From:          Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
> To:            "'Traveller Mailing List'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Subject:       FF&S/QSDS Format Request
> Date:          Fri, 21 Jun 1996 01:03:03 +0900
> Reply-to:      traveller@MPGN.COM

> >From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
> >can somebody please convert FF&S Light to a format that can be read by 
> other formats easily.
> 
> Could I request RTF or Works word processor format, and Works spreadsheet 
> formats?  I have Works 3 (for Win 3.1 but I use Win95), and I can't as yet 
> afford Excel or Office, especially just to play Traveller.  Works does a 
> very bad job of converting Excel sheets; almost every other field generates 
> an error, and the sheet is useless.

Wouldn't lotus 123 r 2.x version be better (thats .wk1 files) which 
can be read by just about every spreadsheet program ever made? 

------------------------------

From: ross@odyssee.net (Ross Coburn)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:07:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #144

Someone Wrote:

>PDF is some sort of oddball file format. I can't recal *what* uses it
>right now, but something does, and that's why I was thinking similar
>things.

PDF is Portable Document Format, and is primarily used by Adobe Acrobat.
*I* like it...  [g]



------------------------------

From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:06:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: PDF

Leonard Erickson said:
> PDF is some sort of oddball file format. I can't recal *what* uses it
> right now, but something does, and that's why I was thinking similar
> things. 

Adobe Acrobat Reader... nothing much writes to it directly, but you can
get viewers for almost any platform.

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:19:13 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE differences

>Oh... Sounds like the player who rolled him up or designed him kind 
>of cooked his own goose a bit then...  Even with the roll the dice 
>and hope you get the right skills method, you're going to enhance 
>your chances by picking the right table to roll from...  If you're 
>spending 75% of your skill rolls as a navy medic trying to get 
>Brawling/Blade Combat et al, you're kind of asking for trouble...

Ya, you could definitely say that.

>Probably, but I guess I've got a problem with somebody having the 
>ability to go through the skill list and picking and choosing things 
>like they were combing the aisles at K-Mart.  Also, its not all that 
>realistic in military careers, where guys not getting the assignments 
>they want are more the rule than the exception, in most cases...

I've never had this problem, as a player or GM.  People generally try to
stay within the confines of the character.  
There's base skill package, continuing term skills to chose from and special
duty skills to chose from.  Special duty skills are generally combat or
intrigue oriented.  The only thing that gave characters the ability to chose
something wierd was their secondary activity, if you got one.

>OK, I forgot about the FTN.  But there's a lot more written on the 
>Guild than the FTN...

That's because they never really had time to develop the FTN and the RC
generally works harmoniously with the FTN, or at least they get along to an
extent.  The Guild on the other hand is a whole different story.  The Guild
constitutes a major adversary for RCES and had to be detailed.

>> Look at Cardovan Rink, the problem is the game tends not to focus on these
>> men and women.  Even the RCES is supposed to be a quasi mercantile
>> opperation.  I'm not sure what information is contained in the World Tamers
>
>Yup, so mercantile that battle dress is standard issue.  Not sure I 
>buy this one at all Derek...

Okay, not so much mercantile as RCES operations are "generally" supposed to
pay for themselves.  The materials recovered can be sold for a value that
covers the operating costs of the mission.  You get the point.

>WTH is a book that I overlooked in my earlier post.  Although I 
>prefer the book that it stole most of its ideas from, WBH, as a 
>whole, WTH was a pretty good supplement.  

I've never really looked at WTH.  I know it's got a half dozen ships and
some interesting black powder weapons in the back but other than that.  I've
got WBH and I've tried to convert some of the gear contained therein to TNE
standards.  The GRAV-BIKE is a bit of a problem.

>> I like the idea, but I could never properly reconsile that aspect.  I guess
>> you've just got to beleive and clik your heals together three times.
>
>This is probably the single biggest reason that a lot of CT & MT 
>players took a look at it and put the book back on the shelf...
>I didn't, but a lot of people did...on the other hand, I haven't used it yet...

Which the TNE book or Virus?  Have you got Survival Margin?  It's got some
interesting stuff on the origin's of Virus.  I guess the thing is if you've
created a self-aware computer (go with this for a second) would it's ability
to be selfaware a result of the computer or of the software?  

Both, the software would be the means by which the "entity" interpreted it's
surroundings, and the hardware's ability to process information would
determine how smart that entity was.

This kind of stands to reason doesn't it?

So if the software is the source of the intelligence would it not be
possible to transfer that intelligence back and forth between computers,
much like I'm sending you this message now only a million times larger and a
million times faster.  The computer that the program is now in will
determine how intelligent the entity becomes and how much external stimuli
the computer can interpret.  ie. a cash register wouldn't know that someone
was in the room with it until they touched its buttons and given the amount
of space in the processor it wouldn't get to smart.  

Now imagine this same program in a Cray II at the corporate headquarters of
a geo-sat company.  This computer would have access to a greater amount of
external stimuli (security camera's [possibly], satilite infromation on the
planet including satilite views of what's going on and Internet access.

Now assuming that this self-aware program makes use of it's resources would
it not stand to reason that this program could potentially become very
intelligent.  Given the amount of information it has access to.

Now if you incorporate into this program a sub-routine in it's intial
processing sequence (first thing run) that told it to carefully observe it's
surroundings and learn as much as possible before acting.  Instinctive
behaviour like the kind found in most animals.  Does this scenario become
more likely?  Especially if the program is so advanced it immediatly
subverts any virus detection programs contained withing the computer.

Given the amount of data flying around between computers, how much of that
data do we actually see.  The binary code for a single character is 8(?)
characters long or is it 11(?), can't remember.  So for every character that
appears on your screen the computer is actually processing considerably more
data behind the scenes.  It becomes even more possible to slip a program
into a computer without the user being fully aware.

How's that?  Just thought it up on the spur of the moment.  Is that a better
explanation of the Virus?

DS 


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:25:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Trin's Veil

>It *was* a vampire.  It *is* a bunch of widely-scattered slag. :)

It certianly is Ollie...  It certianly is...  8)

>Trin's Veil, on the other hand, is a hazy mass of dust which orbits Trin. 
>It gives Trin a gauzy appearance from space, and produces nice effects
>when seen at night from the surface.  This next part is non-canonical, but
>this must be a very short-term phenomenon, as dust particles would quickly
>be swept away by the solar wind around a habitable (and hence near the
>star) world like Trin.  I estimate that the Veil couldn't have formed more
>than about 10,000 years ago, tops. 

This is true if the planet is in the habitation zone of a star.  What if
it's in the habitation zone of a brown dwarf?  I beleive the concept is put
forth in 2300ad.  Aroura is in the habitation zone of a brown dwarf, a very
large gas giant (a star that just didn't quite make it) that radiates
immence amounts of UV & IR radiation.  I'm not sure about the IR part of
that equasion and a friend of mine has the orignial sourcebook.  Because the
gas giant is radiating so much energy it creates it's own habitation zone
with no visable light.  Would a system such as this create a solar wind
capable of blowing the Veil away?

DS


------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:56:40 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE: WHat is it?

>> Brief Chronology for interim from MT to TNE:
>> 1116:   Strephon's double assasinated (HT, SM)
>
>So then TNE confirms that the New Strephon is the actual Strephon? 
>
>>1118:   Rebellion in fact; Vilani Ziru Sirkaa in place, factions crytalized
>>         (MT, SM, HT)
>>1120:   Hard Times clooapse starting in regions outside safe zones (HT,SM)
>>1125:   Safe Zones Retreating, massive Economic collapse outside safe zones
>>         (SM,HT, TNE)
>>1135:   Virus released by dulinor (accidentally and unknowingly); picked it up
>>during a raid on a research station which was developing it for lucan's
>
>Too bad. I liked Dulinor. 
>Did Lucan and the "real" Strephon survive the carnage? 

Ya he wasn't such a bad guy, he just had an idea about change and a plan
that didn't quite work out.

It is most likely that Lucan died in the carnage.  Lucan's strong hold was
at the center of what happened.  Even if the Virus didn't kill him it's
likely his people did after everything went to hell.

There's no mention of Strephon in any of the NE source books.  It seems
likely that he too was killed in the collapse.  Perhaps he died of old age
but he never went to the Regency and we never hear from him again.

>
>So the Zhodani did not take advantage of the chaos and attack Deneb? 

The Zhodani had their own problems to worry about.  There was some kind of
internal strife going on within the Consulate as early as 1118.  No one's
really sure about what was happening there and besides that with the
destruction of the Imperium the Domain of Deneb no longer represented a
threat to the Consulate so they just let them be.

>Was the Virus an intelligent collective organism capable of planning things
>or did they simply reproduce and take over things? 

This is a little more difficult to determine.  Some Virus's work like a
collective organism, Vampire Fleets.  Though each ship in the fleet is
self-aware they work together like a single entity.  Virus's intelligence
seems to vary dramatically depending upon the type of computer it infects
and the strain of virus.  The type of computer is important for the bigger
the computer, ie. more processing power, the smarter the Virus becomes.  The
Virus reproduces at a dramatic rate and most of them killed themselves off
in the initial generations.  Stranding ships in deep space, blowing
themselves up, etc.

>When did the Virus become intelligent? 

The Virus was always intelligent.  It just got more intellegent when it had
more room to grow into.  All imperial ships possessed IFF transponder's it
was through these transponders that most infections occurred.  The
transponder itself contained a very primitive version of virus that
interpreted information from other IFF transponders in the area and told you
who the contact was and whether they were frendly or not.  These were known
as Deyo Chips.  The Deyo's would chat back and forth, form their own
opinions and then tell you what was going on.

>Imagine what the virus would have been like if the Imperium had FTL
>communication. 

It was bad enough on worlds that knew what was coming imagine the worlds
that had no idea.  The X-Boat service spread most of the Virus's through
Imperial space.
 
>> Basically, the virus acted by taking over HT worlds computerized systems,
>> and killing humans however it could. Later variants (the virus is capable
>> of sexual reproduction of sorts) came to use humans as tools, having
>> overcome their own suicidal tendencies. On worlds that relied on computer
>> controlled environments, external shipping, or robotics, they died either
>> during the hard times or the tenure of the virus.

Actually this is not entierly true.  The earliest Virus's simply shut
everything down, locked out all access and self terminated.  Because of the
high rate of transfer errors developed and the Virus began interpreting its
commands differently.  This development occured within a very few
generations, to a Virus thats a matter of hours or days.  These Virus's
began blowing up power plants when they killed themselves etc.  The
destruction got worse, starships crashed, orbital cities fell out of orbit,
everything and everything that could became murderously alive.  Part of this
could be due to the fact that human technitions, not knowing what was going
on tried to shut things down.  The virus, a sentinet entity, enterpreted
this as a hostile act by an individual desiring to kill it and acted
accordingly.
 
>> According to the text in TNE, the virus is all but dead by 1201; the tables
>> indicate that the virus is alive and well during the 1201-1220 timeframe,
>> and about 1 in 12 systems (assumes three encounter rolls per system) will
>> have "vapires"; vampires are virus controlled ships or fleets; most of them
>> imperial warships. Considering approximately 800 worlds are in "wilds" from
>> the 1100 worlds of the imperium, that's a lot of virus.

Again this is close to true but not entierly.  Most of the early strain of
Virus are dead and thus most 99% of the intially infected machines are gone.
Most of the strains that remain have resisted the suicidal urge and have
become all the more deadly and homicidal.  They are however extremely rare.
The modifiers on the encounter tables are such that travelling in the wilds
in a system with an X class starport, most systems, the odds of running into
a starship are 0 if the system has a starport the odds are better to a
maximum of 4 in 6 if you encounter an A class starport.  This added to the
fact that inorder to encouter a Vampire you have to role 13+ on 2d6 with a
maximum modifier of +3 for wilds.  The odds of ecountering a Vampire unless
the GM wishs it are slim and none and slim just left town.  Granted there is
a great potential to find virus infected equipment in the wilds.  The odds
of running into a live virus are low, again this is unless the GM wishes.
 
>> Also, there is an area shown on the maps as "the black curtain"; the text
>> says nothing that has gone in has come out; it's about a sector in sine,
>> and near capitol.

It essentially follows the borders of Lucan's Stronghold and no one has any
idea of what's going on in there.  I think thats where the Puppeter's are
coming from and that they're producing infected equipment to send out into
the wilds.

DS
 


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 21:48:52 -0600
Subject: Re: FF&S/QSDS Format Request

On 06/23/96 at 09:52 PM,  "Robert Jolliffe" <fibbert@golden.net> said:

>Wouldn't lotus 123 r 2.x version be better (thats .wk1 files) which 
>can be read by just about every spreadsheet program ever made? 

That would work really well for me.  <g>

It would really be best to be as generic as possible, because we have
people with all kinds of systems out here...Macs, Amigas, OS/2, DOS,
TRS80, Windows and the varity of software on those systems is even
more varied.  The best way probably would be ASCII for text and comma
delimited, or wk1 format, for
worksheets.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 20:01:38 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE differences

Stu.

I just thought of something to add to that Virus idea.  And this is where
the idea breaks down.

If you allow the Program to carve it's own circutry it can imprint itself in
the machine and allow for it's re-activation after a period of domancy.
This stops players from simply picking up every piece of TL15 equipement
that's laying around in the wilds and knowing it's safe.  This adds an
element of danger everytime the players find some new gear.

How does it re-write the circuts?  God if I know...  Potentially it could
hide in magnetic bubble rams.

DS


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 20:39:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:

> How does it re-write the circuts?  God if I know...  Potentially it could
> hide in magnetic bubble rams.
>
> DS

Well, if you want to play the it-is-the-57th-century-card, and you take a
look at data correction systems nowadays, it is conceivable (and likely)
that some computer guy somewhere said, hey, why don't we make self
maintaining and correcting hardware...

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: scharlto@RTD.COM (Steve Charlton)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 20:47:30 -0700 (MST)
Subject: QSDS Recontact Squadron Essay (long)

The following is a workup of a Sylean Navy unit which would play a major 
role in the expansion of Sylea and the subsequent 3rd Imperium.  As the 
Sylean Federation (?) began its expansion, it found that its technological 
superiority allowed it to avoid a lot of fighting.  Many worlds were more 
than happy with the concept of a new interstellar government, as long as 
their own needs were seen to and their societies and ways of life were not 
affected by this new government.  Some worlds were more forceful about it, 
and gave some level of resistance to the Syleans.

Since it became apparent that the major combat units of the Sylean Navy were 
not needed for most of the more peaceful (or at least less violent) 
contacts, The Sylean Navy, in conjunction with Sylean Foreign Ministry and 
the Sylean Exploration Service, came up with the concept of the Recontact 
Squadron.  This would be a unit of 12 ships, some civilian and some naval, 
under the command of a Sylean ambassador and a naval Commodore (a Captain 
with a promotion of convenience).  The squadron consisted of:
6 Commander-class Destroyer Escorts (1000 td) 
3 Kaalimar-class Destroyers (5000 td)
2 Decision-class Assault Corvettes (5000 td)
1 Martinique-class Exploration Cruiser (5000 td).

Since the Foreign Ministry lacked a fleet of its own (beyond a collection of 
Scout and Courier ships), it was decided to use an existing naval ship, the 
Assault Corvette, as the basis of the ship's design.  The Exploration 
Cruiser was equipped with the best available sensor technology, room for a 
diplomatic staff of 20 people, 10 double-sized meeting rooms equipped with 
the finest in Sylean audio-visual technology, and room for 6 Sylean Scout 
ships to use for remote exploration or to establish as "pony-express" route 
of courier ships to maintain quick contact with Sylea.  The Exploration 
Cruiser was armed for self defense (and carried a 40-man Marine platton for 
security) but overall the ship was designed for peaceful uses, and great 
efforts were made to de-emphasize the military nature of the original hull 
design.

The Assault Corvette was the result of a naval cost-cutting exercise.  The 
goal was to create a vessel capable of carrying a reinforced company of 
marines throughout the Sylean Federation and to its client states on "show 
the flag" expeditions.  A marine company was not expected to be able to 
conquer a plaent, but the marines and their vehicles could certainly deliver 
a strong message when needed.  Generally, the Assault Corvette and its 
troops were little more than a mobile recruiting poster for the Sylean Navy, 
but in those cases where a rapid-response police action was called for, a 
squadron of Assault Corvettes could be "the fastest with the mostest."  Like 
the Exploration Cruiser, the Assault Corvette was based on anoterh existing 
design, the Kaalimar-class Destroyer.

The Kaalimar-class Destroyer was the light workhorse of the Sylean Navy.  
Working in conjunction with the smaller and agile Commander-class Destroyer 
Escort, the Kaalimar carried enough firepower to take on nearly all 
non-capital naval vessles of the governments surrounding the Sylean 
Federation.  Those governments capable of deploying large naval; vessels 
were handled (when necessary) by the capital ships of the Sylean Navy, but 
even then the Kaalimar would operate in support, screening the flanks of the 
main fleet and providing fast-moving raiding vessels to help their larger 
cousins.  The Kaalimar was greatly aided in this mission by its complement 
of 24 Dirk-class fighters; agile 10-ton space vessels organized into three 
8-ship squadrons (normal Sylean practice was to use the Dirk in 12-vessel 
squadrons).  A squadron of 4 Kaalimars, with their 8 Destroyer Escorts and 
96 Dirk fighters, could easily interdict the average independant spacefaring 
world until heavier fleet elements arrived.  The destroyer could also act in 
a "show the flag" mission, as each ship carried a 40-man marine platoon.

The Commander-class Destroyer Escort was one of the newest designs in the 
Sylean fleet at the time of the Imperium's formation.  This ship was the 
first jump-capable vessel in the Sylean Navy to be equipped with thrusters 
capable of 6G acceleration.  In addition to its great speed and agility, the 
Commander-class carried a respectable suite of weapons, as well as a 12-man 
Marine squad and a 40-ton Pinnace.  In addition to its role as a screening 
unit in the heavy squadrons of the Sylean Navy, the Commander-class was used 
to support the Kaalimar-class Destroyer and as a general merchant convoy 
protector and escort.

I shall be posting the four designs separately.

Steven T. Charlton
I don't recall installing this 
"General Protection Fault" Screen Saver
scharlto@avalon.com (work)  scharlto@rtd.com (home)


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #146
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 24 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 147

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. QSDS Recontact Squadron Ships (long)
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #136
         3. Motorcycle & Re: TNE differences
         4. Re: TNE differences
         5. Re: TNE differences
         6. Rocks: an ounce of prevention...
         7. Re: [T96#131] Off Topic - SCA Contacts
         8. Repulse Class Interdictor
         9. Legal systems
        10. Death in character generation
        11. displacement tons vs. m3
        12. Re: TNE differences
        13. Re: TNE differences

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: scharlto@RTD.COM (Steve Charlton)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 20:47:59 -0700 (MST)
Subject: QSDS Recontact Squadron Ships (long)

Exploration Cruiser
Tons:  5000  Volume: 70000         Cost: 1005.945
Crew:  84    Passengers (H/M): 20  Troops: 40
Cargo: 104   Controls: Bridge/Fib  Tech Level: 12

09 Size Rating                   03 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating           03 G Rating / Thruster
03 Battery Mil Lsr 9-9-5-3       1.6 Power Plant Rating (4100 MW)
05 Battery Missiles 25 (20)      1521.9 Fuel Rating
00 Battery                       08 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery                       10 Sand Caster Rating (300)
00 Battery                       05 Damper Rating
00 Battery                       A16 P5 J16 Sensors TL12 Md Military
00 Battery                       20 Armor
00 Battery                       28 Structure
Notes:  Based on a 5000-ton Unstreamlined Wedge hull, the Exploration 
Cruiser carries TL12 Advanced Communications, and a 20-ton capacity fuel 
purifier.  The ship has an Engineering Shop and a Sickbay, minimal hangars 
for 6 100-ton Scouts and 2 30-ton Cutters.  The ship has 110 small 
staterooms (107 occupied by crew or marines, single occupancy), plus 40 
large staterooms for the command crew, diplomatic staff and passengers (also 
single occupancy).  There are 10 8-ton meeting rooms, each with a 
Workstation and additional computer and communications gear. There are 10 
Low Berths for medical emergencies.  The ship has 11 Engineers, 2 
Electronics, a Pilot, a Navigator, 8 Gunners, 19 Screen Operators, 16 Small 
Craft crew, 17 Command personnel, 7 Stewards and 2 Medics.  There is a 
platoon of marines on board, consisting of 3 12-man squads and a 4-man 
command team (including the marine CO, a lieutenant).

 
Destroyer
Tons:  5000  Volume: 70000         Cost: 2007.996
Crew:  139   Passengers (H/M): 0   Troops: 40
Cargo: 37    Controls: Bridge/Fib  Tech Level: 12

09 Size Rating                   03 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating           04 G Rating / Thruster
04 Battery Mil Lsr 9-9-5-3       2.9 Power Plant Rating (7300 MW)
20 Battery Missiles 100 (80)     1539 Fuel Rating
01 Battery TL12 PA 9-7-6-5       08 Meson Screen Rating
03 Battery TL12 Meson 3-2-0-0    10 Sand Caster Rating (300)
00 Battery                       05 Damper Rating
00 Battery                       A16 P5 J16 Sensors TL12 Md Military
00 Battery                       20 Armor
00 Battery                       28 Structure
Notes:  Based on a 5000-ton Unstreamlined Wedge hull, the Destroyer carries 
TL12 Advanced Communications, and a 20-ton capacity fuel purifier.  The ship 
has an Engineering Shop, a Vehicle Shop and a Sickbay, minimal hangars for 
24 10-ton fighters and 1 30-ton Cutter.  The ship has 160 small staterooms 
(154 occupied by crew or marines, single occupancy), plus 25 large 
staterooms for the command crew (also single occupancy).  There are 10 Low 
Berths for medical emergencies.  The ship has 15 Engineers, 2 Electronics, a 
Pilot, a Navigator, 41 Gunners, 19 Screen Operators, 26 Small Craft crew, 25 
Command personnel, 7 Stewards and 2 Medics.  There is a platoon of marines 
on board, consisting of 3 12-man squads and a 4-man command team (including 
the marine CO, a lieutenant).


Assault Corvette
Tons:  5000  Volume: 70000         Cost: 2080.373
Crew:  139   Passengers (H/M): 0   Troops: 320
Cargo: 383   Controls: Bridge/Fib  Tech Level: 12

09 Size Rating                   03 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating           04 G Rating / Thruster
04 Battery Mil Lsr 9-9-5-3       2.8 Power Plant Rating (7000 MW)
10 Battery Missiles 50 (40)      1537.5 Fuel Rating
01 Battery TL12 PA 9-7-6-5       08 Meson Screen Rating
01 Battery TL12 Meson 3-2-0-0    10 Sand Caster Rating (300)
00 Battery                       05 Damper Rating
00 Battery                       A16 P5 J16 Sensors TL12 Md Military
00 Battery                       20 Armor
00 Battery                       28 Structure
Notes:  Based on a 5000-ton Unstreamlined Wedge hull, the Assault Corvette 
carries TL12 Advanced Communications, and a 20-ton capacity fuel purifier.  
The ship has an Engineering Shop, a Vehicle Shop, a Sickbay and minimal 
hangars for 6 40-ton Pinnaces.  The ship has 190 bunks (for the marines), 55 
small staterooms (48 occupied by crew, double occupancy), plus 45 large 
staterooms for the command crew and Marine officers (44 occupied, single 
occupancy).  There are 150 Low Berths; 30 are reserved for medical 
emergencies, and 120 are used for the 3 reserve marine platoons acarried 
onbaord (see below). The ship has 13 Engineers, 2 Electronics, a Pilot, a 
Navigator, 21 Gunners, 19 Screen Operators, 12 Small Craft crew, 44 Command 
personnel, 13 Stewards and 3 Medics.  

The onboard Marine contingent consists of a 200-man marine company, plus an 
extra 3 platoons (nearly a full company) kept in low berths as a reserve.  
The company is organized as follows
3x Marine Platoons (3 12-man squads, 1 4-man Command Team, 
   3 10-ton APCs and 1 4-ton Armored Air Raft, for 34 tons 
   of vehicles)
1x Support Platoon (2 MRLS squads, each with 4 4-ton MRL 
   sleds, 1 Ammo Squad with 3 10-ton APCs, and 1 command 
   team with a 4-ton Armored Air Raft, for 66 tons of 
   vehicles)
1x HQ Platoon (1 C3I squad with 2 10-ton APCs, 1 Air Defense 
   Squad with 4 4-ton ADA sleds, 1 Logistics Squad with 4 
   10-ton APCs and 1 Command Team with 1 4-ton Armored Air 
   Raft, for 80 tons of vehicles)
There are also 3 additional Marine Platoons in Low Berths, with their 
vehicles also stored in the cargo hold.  The total equipment tonnage for the 
reinforced company is 350 tons, leaving an additional 33 tons ofr extra ammo 
and other stores in cargo.


Destroyer Escort
Tons:  1000  Volume: 14000         Cost: 464.923
Crew:  37    Passengers (H/M): 0   Troops: 12
Cargo: 4     Controls: Bridge/Fib  Tech Level: 12

09 Size Rating                   03 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating           06 G Rating / Thruster
02 Battery Mil Lsr 9-7-5-3       4 Power Plant Rating (2000 MW)
05 Battery Missiles 25 (20)      310.7 Fuel Rating
00 Battery                       00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery                       10 Sand Caster Rating (300)
00 Battery                       05 Damper Rating
00 Battery                       A10 P4 J10 Sensors TL12 Small Military
00 Battery                       20 Armor
00 Battery                       28 Structure
Notes:  Based on a 1000-ton Airframe Needle hull, the Destroyer Escort 
carries TL12 Advanced Communications, and a 20-ton capacity fuel purifier.  
The ship has an Engineering Shop.  The ship has 35 small staterooms (35 
occupied by crew, single occupancy), plus 8 large staterooms for the command 
crew (also single occupancy)and 12 bunks for the Marine squad.  The ship has 
6 Engineers, 2 Electronics, a Pilot, a Navigator, 7 Gunners, 15 Screen 
Operators, 8 Command personnel, 2 Stewards and 1 Medic.  There is a 12-man 
squad of marines on board.


 


Steven T. Charlton
I don't recall installing this 
"General Protection Fault" Screen Saver
scharlto@avalon.com (work)  scharlto@rtd.com (home)


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 23:05:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #136

>
>   Virus *really* stretches believability, but after getting used to
>   it I actually like the adventure possiblities. Virus adds a *major*
>   source of tension and conflict, and creates an atmosphere of
>   adventure that's hard to do in CT, with it's fairly sterile
>   uniform background.
>
>
>- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca

THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS NOT INTENDED TO BE THE STARTING POINT OF A
FLAME WAR!!!!!   DIRECT ANY FLAMES TO MY PERSONAL EMAIL ADDRESS ABOVE!!!  I
ENJOY READING A FLAMELESS DIGEST!!!!!!!


This source of tension was the original idea behind Virus IIRC.  I'm not
sure about the original location, but I seem to remember reading somewhere
that GDW suggested that ref's not overuse Virus, but let it reside in the
background to keep the players on their toes.  

A while back I posted the statistical probablilties on running upon a random
Virus during normal ship travel.  I was amazed at how rare Virus was.  I
have a copy of the original posting if anyone is interested, but to me it
showed quite plainly that Virus was more a means to an end (RC setting)
rather than an end in itself.


Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
      Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
      Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 23:05:50 -0500
Subject: Motorcycle & Re: TNE differences

>From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
>Subject: Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)
>
>>Unless you are riding a "toy" motorcycle, you are talking about an
>>object 5 feet long, about 4 feet high, and a foot or more thick.
>>
>>That works out to about 600 liters, or .6 Td.
>
>(add incredulous tone to voice) REALLY?!?  (Eek the Cat is perfect).  It
>sound so large, guess it's just my over active imagination.
>
>DS

I don't think so, DS.  The 5ft x 4ft x 1ft(to 1.5ft) block described above
represents a solid.  A motorcycle has mucho void areas.  (I'm assuming
you're using 4ft to be to the top of the handlebars since your inseam
probably isn't 4ft.)  True, a block 5ft (1.5m) x 4ft (1.2m) x 1ft (.3m)
would give you .6 kiloliters, but .6 Td , I don't think so.  More like .043
Td, a far cry from the 7 kiloliter, .5 Td listed in the Trav books!!!

Just for fun, here's how big the Grav Bike in the book would have to be
based on the 5' x 4' x 1' example: (Just a reminder, this is a BLOCK, no
empty space)

        at 5' (1.5m)             at 4' (1.2m)            at 1'
        1'x51'(0.3m x 15.5m)    1'x64'(0.3m x 19.5m)    1'x255'(0.3m x 77.7m)
        2'x26'(0.6m x 7.9m)     2'x32'(0.6m x 9.8m)     2'x128'(0.6m x 39.0m)
        3'x17'(0.9m x 5.2m)     3'x21'(0.9m x 6.4m)     3'x85' (0.9m x 25.9m)
        4'x13'(1.2m x 4.0m)     4'x16'(1.2m x 4.9m)     4'x64' (1.2m x 19.5m)
        5'x10'(1.5m x 3.0m)     5'x13'(1.5m x 4.0m)     5'x51' (1.5m x 15.5m)

Just a few numbers to think about.  The sizes in traveller are too BIG!!!!
(And the M3, Kiloliter, Td thing confuses too many people.  MM If you're
reading this, pick one and stick with it throughout!!)

>
>
>------------------------------
>From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
>Subject: Re: TNE differences
>
>Has anyone met Sandman yet?
>

You mean Sandman the friendly psychotic!?!?!   I don't trust him.  Do you?


Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
      Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
      Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:39:45 -0800
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On 23 Jun 96 at 20:39, Charles Pratt spewed:

> 
> On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:
> 
> > How does it re-write the circuts?  God if I know...  Potentially it could
> > hide in magnetic bubble rams.
> >
> > DS
> 
> Well, if you want to play the it-is-the-57th-century-card, and you take a
> look at data correction systems nowadays, it is conceivable (and likely)
> that some computer guy somewhere said, hey, why don't we make self
> maintaining and correcting hardware...

Probably the best explanation yet...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:39:45 -0800
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On 23 Jun 96 at 19:19, derek stanley spewed:

> I've never had this problem, as a player or GM.  People generally try to
> stay within the confines of the character.  

I think we've kind of run this thread through its course...  Maybe 
next time I'll try letting my people pick from the lists and see what 
they come up with.  I'll reserve further judgment until several 
months of now (probably when I run my first Milieu 0 campaign).

> 
> >OK, I forgot about the FTN.  But there's a lot more written on the 
> >Guild than the FTN...
> 
> That's because they never really had time to develop the FTN and the RC
> generally works harmoniously with the FTN, or at least they get along to an
> extent.  The Guild on the other hand is a whole different story.  The Guild
> constitutes a major adversary for RCES and had to be detailed.

That and the fact that I just don't think somebody at GDW was all 
that interested in creating Merchant style adventures...

> Okay, not so much mercantile as RCES operations are "generally" supposed to
> pay for themselves.  The materials recovered can be sold for a value that
> covers the operating costs of the mission.  You get the point.

I won't argue this.  But I think they were worried about 
self-sufficiency in terms of recovering relic technology.

> I've never really looked at WTH.  I know it's got a half dozen ships and
> some interesting black powder weapons in the back but other than that.  I've
> got WBH and I've tried to convert some of the gear contained therein to TNE
> standards.  The GRAV-BIKE is a bit of a problem.

Actually, I was thinking more of some of the world-detailing ideas.  
I'd strongly recommend either of these 2 books for anybody looking to 
run a campaign.  Lots of great ideas...

> >This is probably the single biggest reason that a lot of CT & MT 
> >players took a look at it and put the book back on the shelf...
> >I didn't, but a lot of people did...on the other hand, I haven't used it yet...
> 
> Which the TNE book or Virus?  Have you got Survival Margin?  It's got some
> interesting stuff on the origin's of Virus.  I guess the thing is if you've
> created a self-aware computer (go with this for a second) would it's ability
> to be selfaware a result of the computer or of the software?  

A lot of people just didn't buy into Virus.  Certainly a lot of them 
had no desire to, but some just didn't buy the arguments presented in 
TNE & Survival Margin.  To me the concept of self-aware machines gone 
mad was intriguing, and possible.  Some people either didn't want to 
or wouldn't buy into Virus as presented...

> Both, the software would be the means by which the "entity" interpreted it's
> surroundings, and the hardware's ability to process information would
> determine how smart that entity was.
> 
> This kind of stands to reason doesn't it?

No argument here.  IMHO, self-awareness would be both a hardware & 
software challenge.  

> How's that?  Just thought it up on the spur of the moment.  Is that a better
> explanation of the Virus?
> 

Stronger than presented in TNE.  But I'd kind of come to this 
conclusion earlier.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 01:10:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Rocks: an ounce of prevention...

	I think  we have conclusively proven that once a big .1c rock 
is coming at you, you've pretty much had it.  So how about keeping them 
from coming at you in the first place?
	If you're the kind of planet that worries about .1c rocks, then 
one solution would be to build a set of computer controlled orbital 
observatories which keep tabs on big rocks in your system.  Before you 
scoff, let me point out that this is still going to be a lot easier than 
surrounding your planet with debris shields or playing interplanetary 
billiards by bouncing other big rocks off of incoming big rocks.

Prevention measure #1
	The orbital observatory system would first catalogue all the
likely dinosaur killers in the system (BIG number) and then would check on
each of them, say, once a week.  This would be an enormous number of rocks
to check, but you don't have to look at them long, or with any great 
resolution, just well enough so that the computer can see that they have 
not been perturbed from their orbit.  A large number of automated 
observatories flicking their gaze from rock to rock would be expensive no 
doubt, but still less expensive then a whole new planet :-)

Prevention measure #2
	Patrols.  What are SDBs for if not to catch lunatics trying to 
destroy your planet?  Okay, so space is big, but a populous world can 
afford a whole bunch of 400Td SDBs.

Prevention measure #3
	Everyone has to file flight plans, not just in your system, but in
every system.  Flight plans are kept up to date by travelling ships
themselves.  Each one is required to carry encrypted updated flight plans
for all traffic to its current destination. (Sort of like X-Net in the
Regency, only just for flight plans).  If a ship fails to show up when it
was supposed to, its declared overdue and everyone's on the look out for
it.  This helps resuces, anti-piracy, anti-smuggling, all kinds of things. 
It also lets you know if there are any potential terrorists in the
subsector who might lurking in your outer system pushing rocks at you. 

	Trying to stop .1c rocks is like trying to get all the toothpaste 
back in the tube.  Ain't gonna happen.  Rational beings will try to keep 
.1c rocks from happening in the first place.

- --Muir

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 18:41:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#131] Off Topic - SCA Contacts

T::>I would like to know if either of you can point me where to go to find out
 ::>more about the SCA, and joining.  Jo, I looked at the site you gave me, and
 ::>I either never got back to the original site from an early taken link, or it
 ::>wasn't the right place.

 Sorry about posting this to the list, but my broken reader won't
 let me sensible recombine the parts of a dissected message, and
 Paul's address was in a previous segment.

 Paul, the SCA's Web Page is at http://www.sca.org/ and if you'll
 email me with your postal address, or at least city/state/country,
 I'll see if I can identify human contacts for you.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  He who laughs last is S-L-O-W.


------------------------------

From: jmg141@psu.edu (John M. Gardner)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 02:14:40 -0400
Subject: Repulse Class Interdictor

Ok, here's my contribution to the QSDS fleet.  I packed as much as I could
justify (and still juggle the numbers) into this monster, using up every
inch of hull surface space.  Total design time was 65 minutes (including
watching the kids and warding off the evil telemarketers)  There is 143 MW
of power allocated for additional weapons (but no hull area available) or
any other systems desired.  Hardly an optimal design, but everything was
"off the shelf" after all.  (possibly a redundant drive system or something
could be squeezed in) 
         In all, the design system seems pretty straightforward and solid.
It is going to take me a while to get used to the new ship format though.  ;>)

                             Repulse Class Interdictor

tons:   1000             volume: 14000           cost:   MCr 503.7        
crew:   44                 pas:         0/0               low psg:      0
cargo:  50                controls: fib/ bridge         TL:     12

09         size rating                                    03  jump rating
04         FCC                                              06  G rating /
maneuver
L bay    Batt 1         6 / 6 / 6 / 5                 06  power plant rating
10 LB   Batt 2         9 / 9 / 5 / 3         300 SR fuel / scoop / refine
6 LT      Batt 3        5 / 3 / 3 / 0                  00  meson screen rating
              Batt 4                                            2(60)
sandcaster rating
              Batt 5                                            01  damper
rating
              Batt 6                                            10 A / 04 P
/ 10 J sensor rating
              Batt 7                                            
              Batt 8                                            20  Armor
23  Structure

Notes:          hull config: needle, airframe.  Engineering shop and sickbay
equiped.  FPP requires 15 hours to refine 300 disp tons of fuel sufficient
for jump-3.  This ship uses modern TL 12 fusion, and thrusterplate drive
systems.  overpower: 143 MW spare.

        A fairly new design (entering service circa -03 on the new Imperial
calender), the Repulse class interdictor is well suited to its role as a
rapid deployment / piracy suppression vessel.  Heavily armed, defended, and
equiped with the most modern power and drive systems; these vessels possess
a marked tactical advantage over similar sized vessels in the threat
inventory.  This class of vessel also retains a large configurable cargo
hold and power surplus which allows it to be configured for special missions
as needed.  
        Although considered to be "comfortable" from the crew berthing
perspective (even the marines recieve single occupancy staterooms), these
vessels are not equiped with any sort of small craft.  This deficiency
prevents the vessel from being able to render any sort of orbital support to
"landed" marines, but its airframe hull does allow it to function in a close
air support role if absolutely necessary.  This design reflects the current
low crew fatigue design philosophy, allowing these vessels to operate for
extended tours as needed.  
        


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 00:04:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Legal systems

>From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>

[Good, incisive comments deleted.]

>>It's only Louisiana, as far as I know.
>
>        California, too, I believe, since it was originally a Spanish
>possession and thus civil law ran.  I had occasion to go searching through
>the California Corporations Code the other day; its laid out in almost
>exactly the same way as a civilian civil code is.

I practice law in California, so I don't think of it as a civil law
jurisdiction.  You're quite right, however, about civil law influence on the
California Code.  The California Code is huge compared to other state codes,
much more like a civil code than a common law set of statutes.  

I hope that some of this discussion has been of use or interest to Traveller
referees.  

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: chris watson <qwerty@mosquitonet.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 23:19:29 -0800
Subject: Death in character generation

I liked the CT. character generation myself but it was kind of hard to 
explain to new players. The common quote of "What do you mean I'm dead, 
I'm still making the @#%$#$^% thing" or "I want to be a Scout what do 
you mean they don't want me ?!" Usually this is followed by "I was 
drafted by who???".                                                     
  For this reason I used TNE. character generation. It did not make the 
veteran players happy but was popular with the newbies.                 
   This is a first post so I kind of hope it gets posted in the right 
place. If I don't see it in the Traveller list well oooppps.            
       Technology ...It's magic....not.

------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 00:25:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: displacement tons vs. m3

>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> 
(and others)

>>After 15 years, I've rather got used to them. Drop them for cargo, but keep

>        That's how I feel. Everybody's used to using them for rating ships,

Me, too.  I even think of real boats and ships in terms of Traveller
displacement tons first.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: matth <matth@ritz.mordor.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 07:16:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

Hi: 

> > 
> > Which the TNE book or Virus?  Have you got Survival Margin?  It's got some
> > interesting stuff on the origin's of Virus.  I guess the thing is if you've
> > created a self-aware computer (go with this for a second) would it's ability
> > to be selfaware a result of the computer or of the software?  
> 
> A lot of people just didn't buy into Virus.  Certainly a lot of them 
> had no desire to, but some just didn't buy the arguments presented in 
> TNE & Survival Margin.  To me the concept of self-aware machines gone 
> mad was intriguing, and possible.  Some people either didn't want to 
> or wouldn't buy into Virus as presented...
> 
> > Both, the software would be the means by which the "entity" interpreted it's
> > surroundings, and the hardware's ability to process information would
> > determine how smart that entity was.
> > 
> > This kind of stands to reason doesn't it?
> 
> No argument here.  IMHO, self-awareness would be both a hardware & 
> software challenge.  
> 
> > How's that?  Just thought it up on the spur of the moment.  Is that a better
> > explanation of the Virus?
> > 
> 
> Stronger than presented in TNE.  But I'd kind of come to this 
> conclusion earlier.

It sounds to me like GDW needed a way to destroy the Imperium of the past, but
still have something left. In MT they were hinting that the Deneb would
be a stand-alone empire. The Virus gave them:
1. A destroyed empire.
2. A single enemy to reunify anyone who was left. They got this enemy rather
cheaply, without having the spend the time developing some very high 
tech malicious alien. 

Matthew

------------------------------

From: matth <matth@ritz.mordor.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 07:19:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

> 
> On 23 Jun 96 at 20:39, Charles Pratt spewed:
> 
> > 
> > On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:
> > 
> > > How does it re-write the circuts?  God if I know...  Potentially it could
> > > hide in magnetic bubble rams.
> > >
> > > DS
> > 
> > Well, if you want to play the it-is-the-57th-century-card, and you take a
> > look at data correction systems nowadays, it is conceivable (and likely)
> > that some computer guy somewhere said, hey, why don't we make self
> > maintaining and correcting hardware...
> 
> Probably the best explanation yet...

We have to assume that the foundation of circuitry in the 57th 
century is drastically different than now. If they use molecular/organic
computers for instance, they simply can inject new DNA or some other 
encoding mechanism into to the organic structure of the computer. 

Neural Net hardware would be much more flexible than Von-Neumann based 
architectures. The neurons and signal connections may not have predefined
functions. 

Matthew



> 
> Stu
>  
> "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
> Bob's Pet Shop.
> Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    
> 


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #147
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 24 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 148

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: How's Your Imperium?
         2. Re: TNE differences

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 23 Jun 96 11:32:55 EDT
Subject: Re: How's Your Imperium?

Steve Charlton scribes:
>Having discovered the list is rife with SCA types (well, two or three 
>anyway) I am forced to ask the following question:
>How has this influenced the way you _run_ the Imperium.
  I _love_ your historical localisation of the imperial cultures!
  Anyway, you might say that the SCA has influenced my Traveller
by having a lot more politics, sort of. Internal imperial politics become
significant.
  For example, at one point a fief (several systems) falls to one
fellow who is more into pleasing the elite of local governments
rather than protecting and encouraging trade (which is the role
of the Imperial Nobility in my universe). With popular (and commercial)
support (a minor) Dutchess Margaret (no relation) rises against
him. The Navy, although they hate the legitimate heir, are forced
to fight against her.
  The Scouts, however, have a freer interpretation. The players,
who are on a scout courier mission at the time, have their mission
changed. They are, instead, to run an espionage mission for the
scouts on behalf of the Navy. The mission takes them to the head-
quarters of a band of pirates supporting the rebelling Dutchess.
They meet the leader, "The Hen" (herself based on the 16th century
Irish pirate Granuail or Grace O'Malley). Having won her confidence
over a game of pool she gives them a chance to run a mission for
her.
  This takes them on some specially calculated jump routes and
they end up alongside a mercenary cruiser on a crash course
for the Duke's head-quarters. The players are faced with the following
choices: they can board and deflect its course and save the Duke.
Or they can board and guide it down, insuring that the strike is clean.
My players choose the latter, bailing out at the last minute. Because
of their last-minute guidence the impact was precise enough to only
take out the Duke in his bunker and the general troops and civilians
were undisturbed.
  The Navy breathes a sigh of relief and now answers to the Dutchess.
[Now the SCA bit.] The players are given various accolades and
awards. One of which is a disused Imperial Packet (one of Rob Dean's
designs) and a lisence to refurbish it as a trader. They then asked for
a "By Royal Appointment" and permission to display the Dutchess's
coat of arms on the ship and letterhead.

  Basically, Noble patronage is worth something. On a different level,
an oath of fealty is even higher. Most citizens of the Imperium are
bound by "fidelity and loyalty" to the government of the Imperium. Only
some are actually bound by "an oath of fealty" to a particular noble.
This isn't taken lightly by most nobles as it implies obligations on
both sides.
  In a more general campaign, such can be the basis of many adventure
hooks. They might dreadfully impress a noble who offers them the chance
to swear fealty. Players might seek out a noble and offer their services
(but may have to do some things to show they are worthy).
  Players with an oath of fealty on record can expect special leniant
treatment when in that noble's domain or when dealing with any other
retainers. They might also attract grief from those opposed to the noble.
  Players who have taken, and then broken, an oath of fealty will forever
be considered "oathbreakers" and reviled by most nobles, noble
institutions, and retainers. [Note it is honourable enough to ask to be
released from an oath of fealty for legitimate reasons.]

  Heraldry is, perhaps, the last influence that the SCA has had on my
Imperial campaign. The arms and badges of various nobles and
institutions are important as they are used to mark ownership. If you
know your heraldry well (or have the appropriate chip for your
computer) it can add useful clues.

  Cheers,
      Jo

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 07:47:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, matth wrote:
> 
> We have to assume that the foundation of circuitry in the 57th 
> century is drastically different than now. If they use molecular/organic
> computers for instance, they simply can inject new DNA or some other 
> encoding mechanism into to the organic structure of the computer. 

Ironically that is why I find Virus *as it was implemented* so hard to
swallow.  The TNE manual specifically states that it came from *silicon*
based life forms.  The odds are that advanced computer systems will *not*
be silicon based, as we have nearly exhausted the computational limits of
silicon (one can only make circuit paths so small before electrons start
bumping into one another).  Research is already underway on organic, DNA
based computing, as well as other molecular models.

> 
> Neural Net hardware would be much more flexible than Von-Neumann based 
> architectures. The neurons and signal connections may not have predefined
> functions. 


This is true even of today's neural nets.

> 
> Matthew
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > Stu
> >  
> > "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
> > Bob's Pet Shop.
> > Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    
> > 
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest            Monday, 24 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 149

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Death in character generation
         2. Re: TNE differences
         3. Subject: Re: FF&S2
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #144
         5. Re: TNE differences
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #147
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #144
         8. Re: TNE differences
         9. RE: Heads up on how to make QSDS ships profitable at 1000Cr per ton 
        10. 'RE:RAILGUNS'
        11. Law level digest 138
        12. Re: Killing Rocks 
        13. RE: Legal Systems
        14. RE: Booby Traps
        15. Re: law level & stuff
        16. Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)
        17. RE: Booby Traps

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 07:13:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Death in character generation

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, chris watson wrote:

> I liked the CT. character generation myself but it was kind of hard to 
> explain to new players. The common quote of "What do you mean I'm dead, 
> I'm still making the @#%$#$^% thing" or "I want to be a Scout what do 
> you mean they don't want me ?!" Usually this is followed by "I was 
> drafted by who???".                                                     
>   For this reason I used TNE. character generation. It did not make the 
> veteran players happy but was popular with the newbies.                 

Yeah, it takes a while for new role-players to understand this isn't a 
game you set out to "win."  The temptation is always there to treat it 
like one does any other type of game (or sport for that matter), and 
attempt to get the indestructable character with the perfect strategy, 
when playing any sort of character can (and should) be a great deal of 
fun.  So long as the referee isn't a sadist, playing a character with the 
stats 222222 and with few skills can be a blast.  It just depends on how 
that character is played, and what sort of imagination the referee and 
player have.

So, I can see where the a pick-your-character system would have appeal to 
newbies over the CT one.  And, really, such a system also has potential 
for true role-players, as they can craft the character they most want to 
play.  After all, if I really want to play that character above, I'm 
going to have as hard a time rolling him up as I would trying to get a 
super-character. :)  

The CT system can be likened to the "Who's line is it anyway" style of 
Improv, where a third party tells the improvisational actors what part to 
play, while a TNE-style character creation system is more like being a 
regular actor.


>    This is a first post so I kind of hope it gets posted in the right 
> place. If I don't see it in the Traveller list well oooppps.            
>        Technology ...It's magic....not.

Looks like it worked fine... :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 07:17:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:

> Ironically that is why I find Virus *as it was implemented* so hard to
> swallow.  The TNE manual specifically states that it came from *silicon*
> based life forms.  The odds are that advanced computer systems will *not*

Hmmm.  I remember a CT adventure based on silicon life forms.  Don't 
recall which one it was, though.  Signal GK?  Hmmm.  Anyway, there was 
precedent in the canon for this scenario.

> be silicon based, as we have nearly exhausted the computational limits of
> silicon (one can only make circuit paths so small before electrons start
> bumping into one another).  Research is already underway on organic, DNA
> based computing, as well as other molecular models.

True, but did TNE say the silicon life forms developed naturally (as 
they did in that adventure whose name I don't recall), or were they 
engineered?  If the former, it doesn't matter what sort of tech other 
life forms were using...natural selection decided these life forms would 
be based on silicon, not something else.

Or am I missing something?  I'm not familiar with TNE, so I'm just going 
on what I've seen posted here.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 14:31:14 +0200
Subject: Subject: Re: FF&S2

>   Also, in the thruster section will there be rules for ion engines
>   and will the thrust/mass ratios be looked at? Frankly, I find a
>   9:1 ration for a fusion rocket ludicrous, considering modern
>   turbofans get better than that now...
Why should a lower thrust to weight ratio for fusion than todays turbofans?
You don't put a fusion engine in a ship for good thrust to mass, you do it
for good delta-v to loaded mass fuel included. The same can be said about
Gregs argument about diesel power vs fusion.

>   (On a related topic - it says Fusion Rockets have a *minimum* thrust
>   of 100t, does this mean I have to build an 11m3 fusion rocket?)
Probably and it is not that hard to imagine. I however prefer design rules
like this:
Fusion drive: 5 m3 + 0,1 m3 per tom of thrust. This gives you a minimum
size as well as a scale efficiency. In my design system jumpdrives work
like that so you could put a jumpdrive in a considerably smaller valume
than 100 dTon but the percentage of th drive+fuel makes it economically
impractical. In year 1117 Pondwater & Smiff LIC put out a small 100 m3 J1
ship for leisure use with a pricetag of sligthly above 10 MCr, sort of a
"poor" mans Yacht.

/Backman



------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 14:35:09 +0200
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #144

>        Instead of either, we could use kiloliters (kl) -- one kl IS one
>cubic meter. It's just that liters are usually used to indicate volume of
>liquids, but there's no hard physical rule ("WARNING: FUSION WILL NOT OCCUR
>IF YOU MEASURE THE REACTION CHAMBER IN KL").

I'm shure Dave Golden is American as every european knows that one doesn't
measure anything in kiloliters, that was a unit invented by DGP for unknown
reasons. Kiloliters and m3 are exactly the same but the former doesn't
exist in the real world and the latter is harder to write on crummy
wordprocessors as it should end with an exponent.

/Backman



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:44:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

My point is that *silicon based lifeforms wouldnt "eat" non silicon
computers.  It was a good idea badly implemented.

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:
> 
> > Ironically that is why I find Virus *as it was implemented* so hard to
> > swallow.  The TNE manual specifically states that it came from *silicon*
> > based life forms.  The odds are that advanced computer systems will *not*
> 
> Hmmm.  I remember a CT adventure based on silicon life forms.  Don't 
> recall which one it was, though.  Signal GK?  Hmmm.  Anyway, there was 
> precedent in the canon for this scenario.
> 
> > be silicon based, as we have nearly exhausted the computational limits of
> > silicon (one can only make circuit paths so small before electrons start
> > bumping into one another).  Research is already underway on organic, DNA
> > based computing, as well as other molecular models.
> 
> True, but did TNE say the silicon life forms developed naturally (as 
> they did in that adventure whose name I don't recall), or were they 
> engineered?  If the former, it doesn't matter what sort of tech other 
> life forms were using...natural selection decided these life forms would 
> be based on silicon, not something else.
> 
> Or am I missing something?  I'm not familiar with TNE, so I'm just going 
> on what I've seen posted here.
> 
> 
> -Joe
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
> ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
> Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
> 
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 14:53:29 +0200
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #147

>It sounds to me like GDW needed a way to destroy the Imperium of the past, but
>still have something left. In MT they were hinting that the Deneb would
>be a stand-alone empire. The Virus gave them:
>1. A destroyed empire.
>2. A single enemy to reunify anyone who was left. They got this enemy rather
>cheaply, without having the spend the time developing some very high
>tech malicious alien.
>
>Matthew

Yes, GDW wanted to destroy the Imperium as all the detailing of it where
done by DGP and perhaps GDW wanted to regain control of its creation. What
they did was making all published material useless (hoping that the dumb
suckers would buy all the new books from them) but most referees I have
contact with either used the old material and didn't buy TNE stuff except
the basic game or they switched to GURPS or Cyberpunk et c, some even went
so low as to start playing with some kind of fantasy card game for
chrissakes.

/Backman



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:59:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #144

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Anders Backman wrote:
> 
> I'm shure Dave Golden is American as every european knows that one doesn't
> measure anything in kiloliters, that was a unit invented by DGP for unknown
> reasons. Kiloliters and m3 are exactly the same but the former doesn't
> exist in the real world and the latter is harder to write on crummy
> wordprocessors as it should end with an exponent.

Just because Eurpoeans doent use them does not mean kiloliters don't
exist.  They do, look in a chemistry textbook in the "measurments" section
some time.

> 
> /Backman
> 
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:18:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:

> My point is that *silicon based lifeforms wouldnt "eat" non silicon
> computers.  It was a good idea badly implemented.

Ah. I missed that in your post.  My apologies...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 10:04:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Heads up on how to make QSDS ships profitable at 1000Cr per ton 

In Reply to Your Message of 22 Jun 1996 21: 35:32 EDT
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 10:04:50 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

:   I'll post designs once I'm sure my spreadsheet works. (Any
: volunteers to test it? You need Lotus 1-2-3.)

Sorry for posting this to the list, but I couldn't find a return
address.  I would be happy to try out the spreadsheet.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled killer rock.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: mab@sdc1.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Mystic Musk Ox)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 15:30:40 GMT
Subject: 'RE:RAILGUNS'

>I developed a twenty ton space mine than utilized passive sensors and a
>hefty mass driver.  The idea was you placed the thing in orbit of a gas
>giant and let it sit there.  When ships came in they were given a certian
>length of time to send a code before the mass driver opened up with a ten
>shot burst.  Because of the size of the round it was virtually undetectable
>even with active sensors.  The mine would wait till the ship was within
>30,000 km  before firing and if the ship was going to approach closer than
>that it'd calculate a best intercept course.  Getting hit with one of these
>things would tear huge holes in the largest ships.

I used to use something similar. Basically it was a frame, with an engine,
computer, fuel tank, scoops, and a laser of some sort mounted on it. These
things were turned out in large numbers and dumped into orbit round gas giants,
in asteroid belts etc,etc. Basically they would sit in a system, checking
ships for transponder readings etc,etc, and if anything came in that they
didn't recognise, then they would come out looking for a scrap. Not too
much of a problem singly, but if you get a pack of 10 or 20 looking for
trouble...and they transmit the data between themselves...  

Mark Buckley.


------------------------------

From: Jamie Young <jamie@tsc.scotnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 13:48:49 +0100
Subject: Law level digest 138

>Scottish law has a nice verdict: "not proven", giving a judge/jury a third
>option between "guilty" and "not guilty".

>>It's mealy-mouthed, cowardly crap, that defames but fails to condemn.  I'm
>>glad that jurors here have to make up their minds.

Jurors here have to make up their minds too.  The net effect of "Not Proven"
for the defendant is the same as "Not Guilty" since a defendant is presumed
innocent until proven guilty.  The verdict is rarely used, but has been
quite controversial recently after it was returned at the end of a
high-profile murder trial, the principle argument against it being
redundancy and the secondary argument being that it was'nt well understood
by jury-members.  Nevertheless, it remains an option for juries at present.
I assume the second comment above was prompted by the first, which to my
understanding is incorrect.

Just to let you know

Bye


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 23:11:36 PST
Subject: Re: Killing Rocks 

Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> writes:

> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:
> :Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> writes:
> :>    I imagine the crew would offload before heading out, leaving a skeleton
> :> volunteer crew to leave on the Cutter/Pinnace/LB after they're close
> :> enough to guarantee a hit.
> 
> :Nope. It has to be a suicide run. The target is about the size of a
> :football field. And moving at several percent of c relative to the
> :interceptor. By the time you get close enough to be relatively sure of
> :hitting it, it's too late to get out of range of the blast.
> 
>   I'm assuming the n-body problem is simplified at frac-cee
>   velocities, and the pilot is competent enough to program in a
>   simple homing sequence on the autopilot/computer, using the starship's
>   sensors as primary input. The crew would still likely get a dose, but
>   it's better than the planet getting nailed by a 100m asteroid!

The n-body problem doesn't apply at all. At those speeds you can
practically plot the rock's course as a straight line. 

The problem is that you have to get the ship to the right place at the
right time. Being able to hit the rock depends mostly on how accurately
you can determine its position and velocity at any given time, and how
accurately you can point the ship. You need to get to a point in space
(plus or minus 50 meters) at the same time the rock is going to be
there (plus or minus the time it takes the rock to move 50 meters).

It's the timing that'll get you. You have to be at that point (+- 50 m)
at a time plus or minus half a *microsecond*. No second chance.

Work out the angular accuracy required to make the 50 meter accuracy
after a couple days of high g boost. Then consider how accurately you
have to be able to boost, to make the *time*.

>   BTW, I don't think this would *guarantee* stopping the rock, but
>   *anything's* better than letting that rock hit!

Not quite. breaking it up after it gets within a certain radius will be
worse than leaving it alone. And "vaporizing" it close in is the
*worst* thing you can do.

>   I'm also playing with a starship carried KKW based on a fusion
>   missile, unfortunately because of FF&S minimums it looks like this'll
>   be too big to be a standard missile, it *will* provide an alternative to
>   ramming a multi-MCr starship into the rock, unlikely as the event is.

Just remember the required accuracy. I'm not even sure that it is
*possible* to manage an intercept. The only reason the rock vs planet
works is that the planet is a *big* target. 

> :Also, if one wanted to get *real* nasty, note that graphite covered
> :steel spheres survived unharmed at a range of a meter or two from a
> :nuclear explosion.
> 
>    Yeah, but 500 *Giga*tons?

Hey, any engineer will tell you that's just a matter of having a safety
factor. Remember, folks have designed ships to be propelled by
detonated nuclear bombs behind a shield plate!

>    I like the radar controlled bb-gun, btw. :-)

Actually, I think a 12 =gauge loaded with birdshot might be better. :-)


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 23:31:28 PST
Subject: RE: Legal Systems

Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net> writes:

>         Bang on.  As well, there are procedural differences; the common law
> trial is adversarial in nature, where the two parties present their
> arguements to the judge, who acts as a neutral arbiter.  The jury decides
> fact, and the judge decides points of law and sentence.  In the civilian
> system, the system is inquisitorial, or investigative if you prefer :), and
> the judges' role includes investigating facts as well as judging fact and
> law.  There are no juries in traditional civil law.
> 
>         Then of course there's the Confucian justice system.  That's scary
> :).  No lawyers, no juries, perjury was pretty much to be expected, torture
> was routinely used, the judge had incredibly broad powers, and the aim of
> the process in civil cases was more oriented towards dispute resolution via
> judically imposed compromise than settling the case based on the parties'
> rights.  Near so far as I can tell, it wasn't exactly a system of private
> law as we know it, but rather a sort of arbitration.
> 
>         Then there's modern Russian law: if your debtor is in default,
> rather than call your lawyer, you call your local mafia boss, and a
> half-dozen guys named Vlad in track suits with Kalashnikovs go shoot him.

How about Islamic Law? Ignoring the weirdness the Islamic fundies have
come up with (they twist things about as much as Christian fundies
do!), I understand it's a "reasonable" system, just very *different*. 
(Probably counts as "civil law")

Hmmmm. I may have to dig up a Koran and some commentaries. I can just
see the players landing on an Islamic planet. :-)

ps. as I understand it, a lot of English common law dates back to
*Norse* influences. 

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 23:36:43 PST
Subject: RE: Booby Traps

Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net> writes:

>         Leaonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> >I seem to recall an adventure where an unco-operative "bad guy" got
> >left for his friends to find. He was tied up, gagged, and then someone
> >cheerfully stuffed a grenade under him and pulled the pin. 
> >
> >As I understand it, he did a *lot* of squawking thru the gag when his
> >buddies started to pick him up. Of course, being "good guys" the
> >grenade didn't have a charge, just a bit of fusing. So it went "bang",
> >not "boom". 
> 
>         What?  They didn't use a thermonuclear hand grenade?  Wimps :).

Why waste a perfectly good nuke grenade? Besides, it got the point
across. It's much better to show someone that you could have blown them
away if you'd felt like it than to actually blow them away. Unless they
are nut cases (or *stupid*) they will decide that they shouldn't mess
with you, *and* they'll try to convince their buddies that it ain't
healthy to mess with you.

If you do blow them away, their buddies may go looking for you.

And if they *do* turn out to be stupid, there's always the grenade you
*didn't* use. :-)

(Personally, I find that a light bulb full of gasoline tends to get the
message across... <click><Whoosh!> ARRRRRGGHH! :-)

BTW, how many of you have players who couldn't resist the classic "box gag"?

There's a box, with two inset panels and a button. One panel is lit
from behind, and says "Press to test". The other is dark, and you can't
tell what it'll say when lit (lettering is on the inside).

I'm sure most of you recognize it. For those who don't....

If someone is foolish enough to press the button, the first panel goes
dark, and the second one lights up. It says "Release to detonate".


:-)

(I've gotta *build* one of those... They'd sell well. :-)

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 23:50:59 PST
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley) writes:

> You should talk to my buddy, he's in armored cav recon.  It's his job to
> place booby traps to slow the enemy down.  He's got some real beauties he
> could tell you about.  False booby traps guarded by false booby traps
> guarded by a real booby trap.  Its frightening, tilted paintings, heat
> registers, chairs, etc.  The first thing they drive into your head in the
> Canadian Armed Forces, is "DON'T PICK UP ANYTHING!  SOUVINIER HUNTING ONLY
> GETS YOU DEAD!"

A few useful nasties I've heard of:

"accidentally" drop a grenade while trying to break contact with the
enemy. Won't they get a surprise when they discover that it's rigged
for 0 delay? (ie pull the pin, release the spoon, *boom*)

slip some "doctored" ammo into the supply chain. Charlie doesn't like
it when his AK-47 feeds a round that has had the powder charge replaced
with C4!

And a real nasty for the anti-terrorist folks. Intercept a shipment of
black market supplies for the insurgents. Replace the fuse cord with
detcord rigged to *look* like fuse. (fuse burns at feet per minute.
Detcord "burns" at medium mach numbers:-)

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 00:23:25 PST
Subject: Re: Starship Economics (QSDS vs. CT Book 2)

dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley) writes:

> 
> >Unless you are riding a "toy" motorcycle, you are talking about an
> >object 5 feet long, about 4 feet high, and a foot or more thick.
> >
> >That works out to about 600 liters, or .6 Td.

Oops! make that .6 m^3, not Td!

It's only .04 Td.

> (add incredulous tone to voice) REALLY?!?  (Eek the Cat is perfect).  It
> sound so large, guess it's just my over active imagination.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 00:28:04 PST
Subject: RE: Booby Traps

dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley) writes:

> You know you just lay down beside those puppies and they won't hurt you. 8)
> 
> True story actually.  Did a stint in the reserves for a summer.  My Master
> Corporal for grenade training pulls the pin, puts the grenade down and lays
> down about 4 feet away.  The grenade goes off he gets up and dusts himself
> off.  Apparently there's a shock "bump" about that far out and none of the
> frags go through that zone.  Of course he told us to never try this ourselves

Sure, the ground provides a "shadow" for both the blast and the
fragments. 

Now try that with the grenade hanging 3 feet in the air. :-)



Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #149
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 24 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 150

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. QSDS Error!  Version 1.2 Available!
         2. Re: Engineers!
         3. Re: Heads up on how to make QSDS ships profitable at 1000Cr per ton
         4. Re: Big Rock vs Little RockS
         5. Re: Calling All Engineers!
         6. Re: TNE differences
         7. Re: TNE differences
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #136
         9. Re: Motorcycle & Re: TNE differences
        10. Re: TNE differences
        11. Re: TNE differences
        12. RE: Booby Traps
        13. Re: Trin's Veil
        14. Re: TNE differences
        15. Profitiable Starships
        16. Next Cheap but profitable ship
        17. Re: TNE differences
        18. Re: Trin's Veil

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 10:46:05 -0400
Subject: QSDS Error!  Version 1.2 Available!

An important error has been detected (and corrected) in QSDS.  My thanks
to the people who detected it and reported it; and my apologies to the
QSDS ship designers who now have to go back and re-figure their designs.

This correction effects all ships that use Thrust-plate maneuver drives.
The power consumption for thrust-plate maneuver drives was wrong.  It should
be 1Mw per cubic meter of drive.  I made a formula error in converting to
QSDS (which uses displacement tons for volume calculations), and had them
using 1Mw per displacement ton of drive - too low by a factor of 14.

The latest version of QSDS, 1.2 incorporates this correction (this is the
only substantive difference between version 1.1 and 1.2).  It is available
in Microsoft Word format from my Web site:

	http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/qsds/

The ASCII and Adobe PDF copies of QSDS will be updated as soon as possible.
Don Perrin informs me that the correction was also reported to Imperium
Games, so that the QSDS in MMT will be correct.  (Thanks, Don!).

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   "Dreams do not vanish, so long as people do
                                    not abandon them."  --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 01:06:36 PST
Subject: Re: Engineers!

"'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu> writes:

> On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> > Therefore, anything on a starship or spaceship that falls under the
> > heading "engineering" is *vital* to your continued life.
> 
> [Applause]  One needs to remember that space is fundamentally inhospitable
> to life as we know it.  No man is an island, but star/space-ships sure
> are.  If the little island you fly around in the big black empty with
> springs a leak, you either have someone on board who can fix it right
> quick, or stick your head between your legs and kiss your sorry arse
> goodbye.

And before folks complain about how "dangerous" this is, consider the
number of people who freeze to death in the Midwest every winter
because their power failed. Or the folks who die in the summer because
they have no air conditioning. 

In a ship, most people won't realize how much they depend on the ship.
But the crew will. Or the crew won't live to pay off the mortgage. :-)


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 00:57:10 PST
Subject: Re: Heads up on how to make QSDS ships profitable at 1000Cr per ton

Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com> writes:

>   I'll post designs once I'm sure my spreadsheet works. (Any
> volunteers to test it? You need Lotus 1-2-3.)

You can send me a copy. I can run Lotus, plus my preferred spreadsheet
(Mutiplan) reads *.wk? files. I can also convert to SYLK(a text only
format!) for the Quattro and Excell folks.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 01:11:43 PST
Subject: Re: Big Rock vs Little RockS

"'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu> writes:

> On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> > If it's a fractional c rock, then it doesn't matter, because the
> > energies involved make splitting the rock *far* more dangerous. See
> > other posts.
> 
> What is really needed is an orbital "mechanic" in deep system with a mass
> driver sufficiently powerful to "engineer" a new trajectory for the rock.
> Have him do some dirty math and then smack another rock into your
> "dinosaur killer" just enough to send it past the planet.  Granted, this
> has some problems...  First, it'd have to be a HUGE (anti-rock)
> rock-slinger.  Second, the guy would have to be ballistic wizard (two
> shots at the very most).  And finally, it very likely that the system
> would then have a very ugly and unpredictable orbiting body (i.e. comet)
> that could come back to haunt them.

The big problem is that the anti-rock slinger is as dangerous as the
rock! :-)

But your final worry is groundless. Unless the momenta come close to
cancelling, but don't quite, the rock will never come back. It's *way*
above system escape velocity. There's a rather narrow range of
velocities that'll keep it as part of the system (say under 42 km/s)
but not be slow enough for the orbit to hit the star. 

Hmmm. Now *there* is a thought. A fractional c asteroid calculated to
*cancel* the orbital velocity of the planet. Sure, the planet would go
to pieces, but most of the pieces would fall into the sun. (note, if
you stop the earth in it's orbit it'll take 131 days to reach the Sun).


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: gsw@aloft.att.com
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 11:05:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Calling All Engineers!

On Friday, June 21, Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> wrote:
> the only problem with subs is when have you seen a civilian submarine? ;)

On the Discover Channel they showed civilian submarines that you
*can* buy for a quite reasonable price (i.e., no more than the cost
of a house :-). Apparently, recent innovations in sealing plastic
bubbles together made it possible not only to build really *deep*
submersibles, but also to build cheap small-to-midsized subs. They
are able to remain submerged for a week or two at a time and run
on both deisel and electric power.

Now *that* would be a great toy!

( But can you get it up to 0.1c? ) :-) :-) :-)

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:19:27 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE differences

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
>True, but did TNE say the silicon life forms developed naturally (as
>they did in that adventure whose name I don't recall), or were they
>engineered?  If the former, it doesn't matter what sort of tech other
>life forms were using...natural selection decided these life forms would
>be based on silicon, not something else.
> 
>Or am I missing something?  I'm not familiar with TNE, so I'm just going
>on what I've seen posted here.

Actually Joe you've hit the nail on the head.  Virus is the direct 
decendent of the Cymbline chips found in "Signal GK."  The only 
difference is these chips have been enhanced through selective breeding 
and programing.  Unfortunately though they got the chips to do what they 
wanted they never figured out how to control them.  When they were 
accidentally released all hell broke lose.

DS

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:20:39 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE differences

Charles Pratt wrote:

>Well, if you want to play the it-is-the-57th-century-card, and you take a
>look at data correction systems nowadays, it is conceivable (and likely)
>that some computer guy somewhere said, hey, why don't we make self
>maintaining and correcting hardware...

This is potentially do able.

DS

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:23:31 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #136

Paul Walker wrote:

>This source of tension was the original idea behind Virus IIRC.  I'm not
>sure about the original location, but I seem to remember reading somewhere
>that GDW suggested that ref's not overuse Virus, but let it reside in the
>background to keep the players on their toes.

I beleive that this was located in the Survial Margin supplement.
 
>A while back I posted the statistical probablilties on running upon a random
>Virus during normal ship travel.  I was amazed at how rare Virus was.  I
>have a copy of the original posting if anyone is interested, but to me it
>showed quite plainly that Virus was more a means to an end (RC setting)
>rather than an end in itself.

Exactly, by 1201, unless you live on Promise, Virus is the exception rather 
than the rule and you're much more likely to be killed or captured by 
xenophobic humans than by Virus.

DS

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:33:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Motorcycle & Re: TNE differences

Paul Walker wrote:

>>(add incredulous tone to voice) REALLY?!? (Eek the Cat is perfect). 
>>It sound so large, guess it's just my over active imagination.
>>
>>DS
> 
>I don't think so, DS. The 5ft x 4ft x 1ft(to 1.5ft) block described 
>above represents a solid.  A motorcycle has mucho void areas.  (I'm 
>assuming you're using 4ft to be to the top of the handlebars since 
>your inseam probably isn't 4ft.)  True, a block 5ft (1.5m) x 4ft 
>(1.2m) x 1ft (.3m) would give you .6 kiloliters, but .6 Td , I don't 
>think so.  More like .043 Td, a far cry from the 7 kiloliter, .5 Td 
>listed in the Trav books!!!

Actually DS, that's me, is the guy saying "REALLY?"  YOu're absolutely 
right about the size thing.  I said it sounded big and my gut was 
right.  When it comes to math I need a calcuater and an Interpreter.  
I hate math.  8)

> >Has anyone met Sandman yet?
> >
> 
>You mean Sandman the friendly psychotic!?!?!   I don't trust him.  Do 
>you?

Ya, that'd be him.  I don't know whether I trust him.  I'm a trusting 
person who beleives that no life form is inherently evil, it's merely 
circumstance that makes it evil.  

I think Sandman has seen the writing on the wall and knows something 
bad is coming so rather than making a deal with his people he's 
cutting a deal with who he perceives to be the ultimate victor in the 
struggle.  It's self preservation really.  He's got a choice, the 
Puppeter's are storming out of Core and he can't side with them, 
that'd be suicide so he's cutting a deal with the devil he knows will 
keep him alive.

DS

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:40:45 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE differences

matth wrote:
 
>It sounds to me like GDW needed a way to destroy the Imperium of the 
>past, but still have something left. In MT they were hinting that the 
>Deneb would be a stand-alone empire. The Virus gave them:

No arguments here.  By the end of 1121(?)  Rebellion Source Book, it was 
pretty evident that this was not going to end in a pretty way for the 
Imperium.  The differences were to big and the war had already destroyed 
to much.

>1. A destroyed empire.
>2. A single enemy to reunify anyone who was left. They got this enemy 
>rather cheaply, without having the spend the time developing some very 
>high tech malicious alien.

This is not entierly true.  The biggest challange facing both the Regency 
and the RC is not Virus but rather the unwillingness of the peoples of 
the wilds to rejoin an interstellar civilization.  Look where it got them 
last time.  As it say's in the Regency Soruce Book, the people of Deneb 
figured they'd just walk back in and everyone would love to see them, 
they had no idea they'd have to fight  when they returned.  Okay that's 
not a direct quote but its got the gist.

DS

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:45:42 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE differences

Tom Ellis wrote:
> 
> My point is that *silicon based lifeforms wouldnt "eat" non silicon
> computers.  It was a good idea badly implemented.

I don't beleive that virus "ate".  It parasitized the other chips and 
wrote it's code onto them.  I believe I read somewhere that virus has a 
real problem when working with Fiberoptic based computers.  

Is there a down side to organic computers?  How do you keep the organic 
part alive?  Is it vulnerable to electromagnetic radiation?  These are 
serious questions.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:51:23 -0700
Subject: RE: Booby Traps

>Sure, the ground provides a "shadow" for both the blast and the
>fragments. 
>
>Now try that with the grenade hanging 3 feet in the air. :-)

Gee Sarge.  Do I hafta?  8)

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 09:22:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Trin's Veil

DS asks, with regard to my assertion that Trin's Veil would be blown away 
in a few brief millenia by the stellar wind:

> This is true if the planet is in the habitation zone of a star.  What if
> it's in the habitation zone of a brown dwarf?  I beleive the concept is
> put forth in 2300ad.  Aroura is in the habitation zone of a brown dwarf, a
> very large gas giant (a star that just didn't quite make it) that radiates
> immence amounts of UV & IR radiation.  I'm not sure about the IR part of
> that equasion and a friend of mine has the orignial sourcebook.  Because
> the gas giant is radiating so much energy it creates it's own habitation
> zone with no visable light.  Would a system such as this create a solar
> wind capable of blowing the Veil away? 

Technical quibble:  A brown dwarf would produce negligible amounts of 
UV.  Read up on "blackbody radiation" for the details.  But yes, I 
suppose a habitable world in close orbit around a brown dwarf would hold 
onto the Veil longer than would, say, Earth.  In fact, one could end up 
with a smoke ring effect, a la the Io plasma torus or the setting of 
Larry Niven's "The Integral Trees" -- a donut-shaped volume of gas and 
dust around the central body, with Trin sitting in it at one point.  
Interesting idea, that...

BTW, I don't have any of my references handy, but I am fairly certain that
the Veil is described not as a ring (i.e., more or less planar) but as a
shell, completely surrounding Trin.  Obviously, there's no UPP code for
that, so it gets entered as a ring -- but that's how I believe it was
handled in the text.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 12:26:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

>Hmmm.  I remember a CT adventure based on silicon life forms.  Don't 
>recall which one it was, though.  Signal GK?  Hmmm.  Anyway, there was 
>precedent in the canon for this scenario.

It's Signal GK, and the TNE book even mentions the chips (from Cybemline?)
were part of the Virus' evolution.  One of the Challenge magazines had an
article explaining the connection between Virus and Signal GK.
*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 09:42:31 MST7
Subject: Profitiable Starships

The current thread regarding the economics of trading is interesting in a 
couple of ways. First, for all the people that complained that the RC 
setting is too militaristic, people have certainly been cramming a lot of 
milspec components and weapons into their ship (Caddy, hand me my meson 
spinal mount ;-)
Second I think that (as many have pointed out) we've been using the wrong 
economic model.  That mythic 1000 cr/ton is a standard shipping rate 
inside the 'protected' Imperium...what else do they have the Navy for, 
anyway?

So, in that spirit, I present the 'YugoBox' class of simple freighters: 
no armor, no weapons, no passengers, just a hole in space to fill with
stuff and move it from point A to point B. I used the cheapest possible
(but modern TL 12) components, but included fuel refining capability,
since the hull design comes with scoops anyway. 

YugoBox class Simple Trader (QDS modular construction)

Jump 1 version
Tons	200	Volume 2800		Cost 26.4 (incl QDS discount)
Crew	4	Passengers H/M/L 	0/0/0
Cargo	154.7	Controls Std.		TL 12
Size	8		Jump	1				
			G-rate	1
			Power	0.8
			Fuel 	20 SR
			Sensors 1A 3P 0J
Armor	0		Structure	6 (Box Streamlined)

Jump 2 version
Tons	200	Volume 2800		Cost 26.9 (incl QDS discount)
Crew	4	Passengers H/M/L 	0/0/0
Cargo	154.7	Controls Std.		TL 12
Size	8		Jump	2				
			G-rate	1
			Power	0.8
			Fuel 	40 SR
			Sensors 1A 3P 0J
Armor	0		Structure	6 (Box Streamlined)

Using the full crew rating, and Book 2 figures for costs, assuming a full 
cargo hold, the jump 1 version is profitable after 11 trips/year, the 
jump 2 after 14.

(A trip is calculated as 1 week in jump/1 week out.) That puts a maximum 
of 23 trips/year, since 2 weeks/year are given over to maintenence. This 
also assumes buying unrefined fuel at 100 cr/ton. If you're cheap and 
scoop your own fuel, that adds 2kCr for the J1 and 4 kCr to the J2 
version per trip of profit.

				Profit (loss) /trip	(kCr)			
				J1			J2
Trips/Year		5	(169.88)	5	(198.98)
			10	(12.44)	10	(38.99)
			15	40.04 	15	14.34
			20	66.28 	20	41.01
			23	76.55 	23	51.44

Multiply this figure times the number of trips to calculate the total 
profit/loss on an annual basis.

Most importantly, as a PC ship, needing to make only 11 or 14 standard 
trips/year leaves 12 or 9 weeks/ year for speculative trading. If you're 
good at it, spec trading will pay this puppy off in a hurry.

Of course, this design doesen't allow for much in the way of surviving a 
fight (or running away), it's the spacelanes equivalent of a tramp 
frieghter or Liberty Ship...cheap holes in space.

Next design...the Yugobus class 200 T Cheap passenger ship...the feeder 
airliners of the spaceways...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 09:44:04 MST7
Subject: Next Cheap but profitable ship

Carrying passengers is more annoying than carrying freight, but certainly
more lucrative. Herewith the YugoBus, a middle passage only ship. It
carries 50 middle passengers from point A to point B in relative comfort
(small staterooms, but double the required number of stewards: 2), safety
provided by the Navy, so no guns or armor.  More or less a large hole with
seats in space. Another QDS design.

YugoBus Simple Passenger ship

Jump 1 version
Tons	200		Volume 2800		Cost 28.0 (incl QDS discount)
Crew	8		Passengers H/M/L 	0/50/0
Cargo	47		Controls Std. 		TL 12
Size	8		Jump	1				
			G-rate	1
			Power	0.8
			Fuel 	20 SR
			Sensors 1A 3P 0J
Armor	0		Structure	6 (Box Streamlined)

Jump 2 version
Tons	200		Volume 2800		Cost 28.5 (incl QDS discount)
Crew	8		Passengers H/M/L 	0/50/0
Cargo	27		Controls Std.		TL 12
Size	8		Jump	2				
			G-rate	1
			Power	0.8
			Fuel 	40 SR
			Sensors 1A 3P 0J
Armor	0		Structure	6 (Box Streamlined)

These puppies do make a profit quick...

				Profit (loss)/trip	(kCr)			
				J1			J2
Trips/Year		5	(41.10)		5	(63.10)
			10	143.95		10	121.95
			15	205.63 		15	183.63
			20	236.47 		20	214.47
			23	248.54 		23	226.54

Multiply this figure times the number of trips to calculate the total 
profit/loss on an annual basis.

Again, this presumes a full load each trip, both passengers and cargo and
buying fuel. If the YugoBox is the liberty ship of the spaceways, then the
YugoBus is the Greyhouund bus... 

These two ships, and hybrids of the two (YugoVan...mixed passenger/cargo, 
YugoGoodHumorMan...all low passage, YugoLiner (about 8 High 
Passage)...simulate the thrills of riding on a tramp freighter, without 
any of the discomforts) are probably quite common in the Inner Imperium, 
where moving stuff cheap is at a priority.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 11:45:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> Actually Joe you've hit the nail on the head.  Virus is the direct 
> decendent of the Cymbline chips found in "Signal GK."  The only 
> difference is these chips have been enhanced through selective breeding 
> and programing.  Unfortunately though they got the chips to do what they 
> wanted they never figured out how to control them.  When they were 
> accidentally released all hell broke lose.

Now that I've learned from this discussion, the whole idea of the Virus 
sounds much more realistic.  GDW seems to have done as good a job with 
the Virus era as they did with all previous eras.  I should probably try 
it sometime.

Only thing is, I'm so fond of the "nice future" of CT, and so tired of 
"dark future" stories that it's unlikely I would enjoy it . . . no matter 
how well-done it is.  

I saw the boxed set of T:NE (rule book, FF&S, etc. in it) at the local 
game store the other day.  Perhaps I should have bought it, if only for 
reference.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 10:04:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Trin's Veil

Craig Berry wrote:
> 
>Technical quibble:  A brown dwarf would produce negligible amounts of
>UV.  Read up on "blackbody radiation" for the details.  But yes, I
>suppose a habitable world in close orbit around a brown dwarf would hold

I'm not to familiar with the extended system generation rules.  I only 
became a GM of Traveller a few weeks ago.  It is possible to though to 
create a "Main World" in orbit of a gas giant that receives very little 
visable light.  In such a system would the Gas Giant/brown dwarf be 
considered a star for purposes of the Stellar type ie. G5 V or would it 
simply be subsumed in the system and ignored in the stellar 
classification.

I used to have this data but what do the various stellar classifications 
stand for.  I think that the earths is a G5 V, Main sequence yellow star.
 what do the other letters stand for?  Red Giant, White Dwarf?  Or are 
they just color?  Wait just a sec...  Letter refers to color, Number 
refers to Luminosity and Roman Numeral refers to size.  Is that how it 
goes?

>onto the Veil longer than would, say, Earth.  In fact, one could end up
>with a smoke ring effect, a la the Io plasma torus or the setting of
>Larry Niven's "The Integral Trees" -- a donut-shaped volume of gas and
>dust around the central body, with Trin sitting in it at one point.
>Interesting idea, that...

This I can handle as an explanation.
 
Derek Stanley

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #150
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 24 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 151

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Death during generation
         2. Re: Profitiable Starships
         3. Re: TNE differences
         4. Recent QSDS ship designs
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #149
         6. Rob Prior's Trading System
         7. Re: Next Cheap but profitable ship
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #149
         9. Virus by Email
        10. SCA, BA in Hist, and My Imperium
        11. Engineers & Tramps
        12. Failed "Survival" roll
        13. m^3 vs kl
        14. Death during Character Generation
        15. Re: TNE differences
        16. Re: Virus & Motorcycle

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 13:24:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Death during generation

Hi!

	What *I* like to do (meaning, nobody else in the world,
usually :) is to use a SINGLE roll during generation, with the
appropriate DMs:
Suppose the target is 8, but it depends on the career of the
character;
Roll	Diff from Target	Result	Meaning
2	-6			Death	Character is dead, big fumble
4	-4			Wound	Was wounded (or demoted
twice)
6	-2			Demoted	Lose a rank - if you fall
below 0, you're fired
8	0			Keep on generating
10	+2			Comission	Get rank 1
12	+4			Promotion	Gain 1 rank

Don't forget the DM's.  I prefer this system over the 3 rolls (death,
comission, promotion) because it's faster although you lose a tiny
bit of game detail.  Also you have very unlikely to die, which
shouldn't happen, really, during character generation, because
there's no point to it!  unless you're playing solo.

Also I like the idea of having some control over your skill selection
- - in real life you do have some control over what you want to study,
but you don't always have the chance to to what you want.

So what I like is a system where you ROLL your 'duty', and you get
to pick a skill in a skill table associated with that duty.
(i.e. you don't really get to chose what happens to you in life,
but you try to make the best of it.)

Actually that could open an interesting vista to character
generation, where your 'duty' is actually a setback or something,
and you get to choose which setback you prefer for your character so 
you both get a character you like and isn't too 1-dimensional.  
It might be a 'killer char', but he might have flaws.

Anyways, just my 2 cents (Quebecois :) worth. :)

- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
	Independentist: My Canada excludes the federal bureaucracy :)
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 10:26:35 -0800
Subject: Re: Profitiable Starships

On 24 Jun 96 at 9:42, Bruce Johnson spewed:

> 
> The current thread regarding the economics of trading is interesting in a 
> couple of ways. First, for all the people that complained that the RC 
> setting is too militaristic, people have certainly been cramming a lot of 
> milspec components and weapons into their ship (Caddy, hand me my meson 
> spinal mount ;-)

Well, somebody trying to mount a meson gun on a merchant is not 
building a merchant ship, to begin with.  Every bit of canon I've 
seen considers them to be military...

> So, in that spirit, I present the 'YugoBox' class of simple freighters: 
> no armor, no weapons, no passengers, just a hole in space to fill with

Oh, you mean the YugoBox class of derelicts.  Sorry, but there is no 
such thing as space protected that well in the Imperium.  Piracy was 
and would be a continuous problem everywhere within the Imperium, 
even at the core.  Or did you think the Imperium stationed all those 
SDB's & Gazelle Close Escorts in Core sector for military parades?  
As a pirate, I'd be licking my chops to puncture the hull into a few 
of these ships.  Be easier than stealing candy from a baby...

Nice design, but I didn't even necessarily buy into the unarmed XBoat 
concept...let alone stepping on board an unarmed Merchant.

The Liberty ship comparison isn't all that good either.  WW2 
Merchant ships were almost routinely armed with a deckgun, and there 
are accounts of merchant ships sinking or damaging U-Boats (the 20th century 
equivalent of the corsair).

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 10:28:12 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE differences

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:
> 
>>Actually Joe you've hit the nail on the head.  Virus is the direct
>>decendent of the Cymbline chips found in "Signal GK."  The only
>>difference is these chips have been enhanced through selective breeding
>>and programing. Unfortunately though they got the chips to do what they
>>wanted they never figured out how to control them.  When they were
>>accidentally released all hell broke lose.
> 
>Only thing is, I'm so fond of the "nice future" of CT, and so tired of
>"dark future" stories that it's unlikely I would enjoy it... no matter
>how well-done it is.

Ya dark future does get kind of...well depressing after a while doesn't 
it?  I think the thing with TNE is there's a ray of hope because you're 
involved in rebuilding the future after so much senceless destruction.  
There's a quote at the begining of the book that kind of sums it up.

"I don't get it.  How did the Imperials build and empire of 11,000 worlds 
and then throw it all away like it was a bunch of garbage?  There are 
entire airless worlds out there where a billion people died when the 
lifesupport ran out.  There are bombed out starports that are still 
radioactive, and there are people out there who call themselves 'human' 
who are murdering each other just to be king of some scrap heap that's so 
deep in dead bodies that it just makes you want to puke.
  I've been out there a half dozen times, and if that doesn't give you 
religion, I don't know what does.  Yeah, I know, religion shmeligion, 
where did it get them?  It's not where it got them, its where we're 
going.  This is history, pal, from here on out.  If you don't want to be 
in on it, get the hell outta my way.
  We didn't come this far to become extinct on 11,000 separate isolated 
worlds.  By Allah, by Buddah, by Krishna, by God--we were created for 
better than that.  Those stars out there--we had them once, and we'll 
have them again.  Nothing's going to stop us.

				RCES Captian Rebekka "Rebba" Gutierez
				NE1
 

I like Rebba, there's a poetry and eloquence to what she says.  This is 
about history, where individual efforts make a difference and are not 
lost in the cosmic background noise.  Where failing a mission means more 
than a loss of quarterly profits.  I think it's a great quote and it sums 
the whole thing up.

>I saw the boxed set of T:NE (rule book, FF&S, etc. in it) at the local
>game store the other day.  Perhaps I should have bought it, if only for
>reference.

I'm not going to tell you one way or another whether to buy it.  There's 
some interesting stuff in there.  There's some garbage, but all in all 
it's a good product.  

I think perhaps the main reason it failed, other than that T$R thing 
which we shall never mention again, is because it destroyed the Imperium. 
 Everything comfortable and familiar was swept away in an instant and GDW 
expected people to simply deal with it.  Had they published the Regency 
source book first I think it would have been better received but instead 
they went with something completely different whether that choice was 
ultimately right or wrong I'm not going to judge, I like the RC, but it 
did in a way cost the company it's life.

FF&S is a good supplement, the whole thing is you can't get discouraged 
while designing your first starship, it's a complicated poorly organized 
book but once you've done it once or twice suddenly the book makes 
complete sence and it's really easy to create a starship.  I can do it in 
under an hour now.  Sure if I want something really custom it takes 
longer but a quick hack job is pretty fast.

The Post Collapse info on Diaspora is simply, tables of UPP codes, but it 
gives you an idea of the devestation that was caused by Virus.

I'd say its worthy of a look through, whether you want to spend your 
money on it is your choice but it is worth of a look through.

DS

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 12:29:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Recent QSDS ship designs

It's great to see all these ship designs.  I like the heavy military 
stuff, and Bruce Johnson's Yugo ships are really cool as well (as long as 
you don't run into a pirate in his Corsair!).  

Bruce brought up the fact that lots of designs coming out are built with 
military spec weapons, which is true and probably not too realistic (if 
every ship is built with military weapons, then why are there civilian 
weapons at all?).  Another thing I'd like to bring up is the fact that 
most of the ships being posted are designed to TL 12 specifications, when 
Milieux 0 presupposes civilian craft being TL 11.  So, I don't know how 
useful some of these designs will be in that setting.  Just a thought.

Anyway, I'm hoping to have some time to use QSDS 1.2 to design a few 
ships tonight.

- -Joe (who just ordered T:NE (boxed set) from his local games store, so 
he'll understand that system)
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 12:45:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #149

>From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #147
>
>>It sounds to me like GDW needed a way to destroy the Imperium of the past, but
...deleted...
>>tech malicious alien.
>
>Yes, GDW wanted to destroy the Imperium as all the detailing of it where
>done by DGP and perhaps GDW wanted to regain control of its creation. What
>they did was making all published material useless (hoping that the dumb
>suckers would buy all the new books from them) but most referees I have
>contact with either used the old material and didn't buy TNE stuff except
>the basic game or they switched to GURPS or Cyberpunk et c, some even went
>so low as to start playing with some kind of fantasy card game for
>chrissakes.
>
>/Backman
>

Leaving out the rules differences for the time being (IMO, rules are a
matter of personal preference), I don't think GDW made all published
material useless.  There has been a lot of discussion about how rules
systems exist apart from background.  All of the CT/MT era background
information can still be used!  If you like the TNE rules but not the
background, just use the rules with the old background.  Saying that GDW
made "all published material useless" is like saying that when Mark Miller
and Imperium Games comes out with Mileau 200: Aslan Border Wars, all the
information in Mileau 0: The Third Imperium will be made useless!!  This is
simply not true.  I will use the background setting of TNE with the new
Traveller until they get around to publishing new material on the RC.  The
RC is my preferred setting, but I wouldn't say that MMT is going to
invalidate the material for TNE that GDW produced simply because they are
putting in a revised or completely new rules system.

THIS INFORMATION IS NOT INTENDED TO START A FLAME WAR OVER THE VARIOUS
TRAVELLER INCARNATIONS.  IT IS SIMPLY INTENDED AS AN ADDITION TO AN
INTELLIGENT CONVERSATION BY CONSENTING ADULTS!! ;)  DIRECT ANY FLAME WAR
MATERIAL TO MY EMAIL ADDRESS.


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 12:41:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Rob Prior's Trading System

Rob -

I just printed out your trading system posts, and I've gone through 
them.   It looks good.  I love the trading aspect of Traveller, and your 
system looks like it will lend itself to not only better trading 
simulation, but better role-playing as well.  It's well-written and 
understandable.

There's just one possible problem with using the system that I can see...

Maybe I'm wrong, but the 1D per population number rule seems like it would 
make it really hard to get many of the goods on higher population 
worlds.  As you probably know, the greater the number of dice thrown, 
the steeper the curve.  That is, on a Population 9 world the resulting 
table will yield results that are at the top of the curve (the middle of 
the table) very, very often and the rest of the results in the table 
will come up only once in a while.  

I'm afraid I haven't come up with a better system, though, so this isn't 
too constructive.  :(   I just wanted to point this out before you got 
too far with the system, when things get really difficult to change.


- -Joe

PS:  Oh, maybe the old method...uh...you know, where instead of reading a 
roll of "5" and "1" as "6," you read it as "51"...would be of use.  That 
way, you could come up with a table based on more dice as the population 
increases, and avoid the curve.  Hmmm.  Well, just a thought anyway.
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 12:50:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Next Cheap but profitable ship

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> These two ships, and hybrids of the two (YugoVan...mixed passenger/cargo, 
> YugoGoodHumorMan...all low passage, YugoLiner (about 8 High 
> Passage)...simulate the thrills of riding on a tramp freighter, without 
> any of the discomforts) are probably quite common in the Inner Imperium, 
> where moving stuff cheap is at a priority.

Bruce, 

These designs are a great idea!  Why not have unarmed/unarmored ships?  I 
mean, it's not like every passenger plane/train/ship/bus in the world is 
armored, let alone armed! :)  Very realistic.  Referees will have to take 
care not to go overboard on the number of Pirates roaming around space 
(if there were tons, then this sort of ship would quickly be abandoned by 
all but the most foolhardy of traders!) so as to make the universe 
consistent.  
Otherwise, I see no reason why there shouldn't be such ships commonly 
used throughout the more secure areas of the Imperium.

Great job!

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 11:10:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #149

Paul Walker wrote:
[snip]
>RC is my preferred setting, but I wouldn't say that MMT is going to
>invalidate the material for TNE that GDW produced simply because they 
>are putting in a revised or completely new rules system.

I agree.  I wish I knew more about the future of the RC.  When I sent 
that quote to Joe I came across another Quote in the book that I'd read a 
thousand time that suddenly made me shudder.

"As attractive as we might find their life-style (this give me hopes that 
the RC is still around), or what they claim to have stood for, we must 
never forget that they were murderers (this is the part that makes me 
shudder, "claim to have stood for").  And if, as they claim, their way 
was the only way to reknit humaniti (god I hate that spelling) together, 
we must be even more vigilant that we never allow civiliztion to get to 
the point that the 'Star Vikings' methods are the only means to our 
salvation."
			Regency Sector Governor Van Gadimishem
			NE 44

This quote scares me and makes me think that the RC and the Regency go to 
war or at least duke it out for a while.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 10:41:52 -0800
Subject: Virus by Email

>   *Any* computer programmer/system analyst can tell you how stupid that
>idea is. For example, a Mac virus cannot harm a PC at all (different
>binaries) so why is it so easy for Virus to invade *any* system above a
>certain arbitrary limit of complexity? The concept of Virus invading *any*
>system through *any* comunications link is stupid. Have you ever heard of
>a virus infecting your machine through email?

yes. At work (novel netware, 10 station lan, Groupwise) we got a virus or
two in attatchments containing software upgrades.

Agreed, tho, the virus is silly due to the fact it can hit *ANY* computer
system. Unless you assume the imperium has required a stadardized (or
hardware translated) machine code schema.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 10:41:44 -0800
Subject: SCA, BA in Hist, and My Imperium

> Having discovered the list is rife with SCA types (well, two or three
> anyway) I am forced to ask the following question:
> How has this influenced the way you _run_ the Imperium.

Having a BA in History, with an emphasis on Russia, and 40 Cr(Sem) in
music, and anthoer 10 in Physical Geography, It has shaped my imperium into
a cross between brittish style nobles without power and russian
"renaissance" (1850-1900) semi-parliamentary, pwerful nobles and
businesses, and a fading "enlightened Despotism" and military dominated by
militarily gained patents of nobility. Social ranks above 12 can only be
earned for service; a duke's children can earn that duchy easier than a
baron's, but until they have served, they are both barons... Admirals and
Generals cannot go above 1 star without being at least knights, two stars
at baron, 3 at viscount 4 at marquis, and 5 at count, and the 6stars
(service head) for a domain or the imperium must be dukes.

Major distinctions in authority for a landed noble vs a military noble vs a
civilian service noble, but the same social ranks... I also see locals
being allowed to style themselves on whatever pattern the locals choose,
but off their world, they must use their "Imperial Title".

Also, add in a dose of "TANSTAAFL"... Lots of SCA style pomp at imperial
courts on all levels, and hefty doses of SCA style respect for those in
power.


William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 10:41:38 -0800
Subject: Engineers & Tramps

While not freighters, every commercial fishing boat whose crew I've talked
to has an engineer or machinist aboard if it has more than 4 persons. Lot
of commerial fishermen up here; they work some of the most dangerous (and
beautiful) waters in North America: the Alaskan Coast. 6foot (2m) seas are
not uncommon, and 20 footers (3.5m) are fairly well known.

Most of them do double as something else, too, except aboard the ships
(100ft/33m+)long ones, where the engineers are dedicated.


William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 10:41:58 -0800
Subject: Failed "Survival" roll

>Hi:
>
>Many of my players complained that it was frustrating to spend alot of
>time building a character only to have it die because you made a bad roll.
>
>I added an alternative to that. If someone failed their survival role then
>they were out of the service they were in and managed to be in one of
>several situations: dead, stranded on an alien world, framed/imprisoned,
>or injured bad enough that they were not very valuable to that service
>any more.
>
>Matthew

That was the standard in MegaTraveller... failed SR meant enough time in
rehab to force one out of service with a short term. Death was the optional
rule.

Which is a mirror of CT, which, in all editions I have read, had an option
to convert death to injury during CGen.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 11:01:23 -0800
Subject: m^3 vs kl

>I'd prefer cubic meters to displacement tons, personally.  I have a
>request however, can we stay consistant and not switch back and forth
>between cubic meters and kiloliters, and while we're at it what is a
>good abbreviation for cubic meter?  I've used m^3, but I don't much
>like it, it can't be cm, and m3 doesn't really cut it either.
>
>Eris
>- --

cubic meters are the same as kilolitres. 1L= 10cm x 10cm x 10cm

10x10x10 blocks of 1l (IE: 1m x 1m x 1m) = 1000 L or 1 KL

Tons Displacement is 14KL=14m^3. It refers to volume displacement of LHyd.
(and actually varies, based upon temp, pressure, etc, to 13 and 15 KL per
TD in real world terms... (See Perry's Chem Engr Hndbk.)


William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 12:03:38 MST7
Subject: Death during Character Generation

My 0.02 cr....

	I hated that part...ever take a half-dozen new Traveller players 
through that? Especially when they're RP'ers like my wife: her 
characters been named, has a nick name, a family history, a drawing 
of her character on the sheet, all before we even got to the career 
generation stuff.  She was used to D&D roll your stats and that's it.

Quote: "What do you MEAN Darwina is DEAD! We haven't even started 
PLAYING YET???!!!" I am then a recipient of a deadly 'Guess who's 
sleeping on the couch tonight' glare.

Thanks, but I'll let 'em live...they just wash out.

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 13:19:29 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:
(large amounts deleted)
> Hmmm.  I remember a CT adventure based on silicon life forms.  Don't 
> recall which one it was, though.  Signal GK?  Hmmm.  Anyway, there was 
> precedent in the canon for this scenario.
> 
It was Signal GK, and that life form was engineered into the virus.  And 
it wasn't natural, it had something to do witha crashed SOlomani Cruiser 
(Nth intersteller war vintage, i think)

Peter


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 14:29:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Virus & Motorcycle

>From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #136
>
>Paul Walker wrote:
>
>>This source of tension was the original idea behind Virus IIRC.  I'm not
>>sure about the original location, but I seem to remember reading somewhere
>>that GDW suggested that ref's not overuse Virus, but let it reside in the
>>background to keep the players on their toes.
>
>I beleive that this was located in the Survial Margin supplement.

I'll have to look for the quote tonight.  I had forgotton about the Virus
info in Survival Margin.

>>A while back I posted the statistical probablilties on running upon a random
>>Virus during normal ship travel.  I was amazed at how rare Virus was.  I
>>have a copy of the original posting if anyone is interested, but to me it
>>showed quite plainly that Virus was more a means to an end (RC setting)
>>rather than an end in itself.
>
>Exactly, by 1201, unless you live on Promise, Virus is the exception rather 
>than the rule and you're much more likely to be killed or captured by 
>xenophobic humans than by Virus.

It is nice to finally have someone agree with me.  I don't think during the
previous discussion that anyone wanted to hear this little bit of info,
cause no one commented on any of my "Virus is Rare" Posts.  :)


>From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>Subject: Re: Motorcycle & Re: TNE differences
>
>Paul Walker wrote:
>
>>>(add incredulous tone to voice) REALLY?!? (Eek the Cat is perfect). 
>>>It sound so large, guess it's just my over active imagination.
>>>
>>>DS
>> 
>>I don't think so, DS. The 5ft x 4ft x 1ft(to 1.5ft) block described 
>>above represents a solid.  A motorcycle has mucho void areas.  (I'm 
>>assuming you're using 4ft to be to the top of the handlebars since 
>>your inseam probably isn't 4ft.)  True, a block 5ft (1.5m) x 4ft 
>>(1.2m) x 1ft (.3m) would give you .6 kiloliters, but .6 Td , I don't 
>>think so.  More like .043 Td, a far cry from the 7 kiloliter, .5 Td 
>>listed in the Trav books!!!
>
>Actually DS, that's me, is the guy saying "REALLY?"  YOu're absolutely 
>right about the size thing.  I said it sounded big and my gut was 
>right.  When it comes to math I need a calcuater and an Interpreter.  
>I hate math.  8)

Yeah, I knew you didn't do the math, but I also knew you asked the original
question.  I guess I just didn't make myself clear as to who I was talking
to and about.  Sorry.

>
>> >Has anyone met Sandman yet?
>> >
>> 
>>You mean Sandman the friendly psychotic!?!?!   I don't trust him.  Do 
>>you?
>
>Ya, that'd be him.  I don't know whether I trust him.  I'm a trusting 
>person who beleives that no life form is inherently evil, it's merely 
>circumstance that makes it evil.  
>
>I think Sandman has seen the writing on the wall and knows something 
>bad is coming so rather than making a deal with his people he's 
>cutting a deal with who he perceives to be the ultimate victor in the 
>struggle.  It's self preservation really.  He's got a choice, the 
>Puppeter's are storming out of Core and he can't side with them, 
>that'd be suicide so he's cutting a deal with the devil he knows will 
>keep him alive.

I think Sandman is a Hiver in disguise!!  Talk about intrigue.  No, I really
don't, but consider the possible connections to the Hiver.  The Hiver
learned to control the Virus and planted Sandman to manipulate the RC into
accepting the Hiver strain Virus.  The Hiver are in contact with the Black
Curtain Society and are negotiating for the control of the petty humans.
The Hiver created the Virus originally to get Humans under control. (OK, I
kinda stole that last idea.)

Really, I think Hiver and Sandman would get along well, so long as the Hiver
could hold their curiosity in check and refrain from "opening the box" so to
speak.  (Have you ever seen a paranoid virus?)  ;)


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #151
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 24 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 152

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Regency vs. RC
         2. Re: Death during Character Generation
         3. QSDS: Huge Table of Hulls
         4. Re: Profitiable Starships
         5. Re: TNE differences
         6. Re: TNE differences
         7. Re: Big Rock vs Little RockS
         8. Re: TNE differences
         9. Re: TNE differences
        10. Re: law level & stuff
        11. Re: TNE differences
        12. Re: QSDS: Huge Table of Hulls
        13. Re: TNE differences
        14. Re: Virus by Email
        15. Stellare Classification
        16. Character death
        17. Don't look now
        18. Re: [T96#141] How's Your Imperium?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 15:24:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Regency vs. RC

I just read a message taking some quotes from TNE, excellent picks Derek!  I
personally have enjoyed the Regency setting more than the RC, whom I didn't
really like, (though I can't say why really, I don't know).  However, I
would have liked to have seen what happens in the future, when these two
adversaries meet (as the quotes alude to).

Any ideas on what would happen?

Peter Miller


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 24 Jun 96 15:28:53 EDT
Subject: Re: Death during Character Generation

actually, I would always give a heinous yet non-fatal result to my PC's who
suffered the death during gen fate. One guy had two prosthetic limbs, another
had a trauma induced fear of open spaces, etc etc yadda yadda yadda....

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 14:55:42 -0400
Subject: QSDS: Huge Table of Hulls

Tired of not being able to find Just the Right Hull for your new
QSDS ship design?  I've added the Huge Table of Hulls to the 
web page, so that you'll have a greater variety to choose from.

Included are all the important hull materials: Composite Laminates
(TL-9), Crystaliron (TL-10), Superdense (TL-12), and Bonded
Superdense (TL-14).  Every possible configuration is listed for
each possible size (from 100 to 5000 tons), and is rated at
two different stress levels (3G and 6G).

All told, there's well over 2000 hulls, and over 50 pages of
material.  It's available in ASCII text (about 200k) or Microsoft
Word (about 600k) formats from:

	http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/qsds/

What's missing?  Well, there still aren't any heavily-armored
military hulls (perhaps I'll get to those soon) ...

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 14:47:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Profitiable Starships

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> > So, in that spirit, I present the 'YugoBox' class of simple freighters: 
> > no armor, no weapons, no passengers, just a hole in space to fill with
> 
> Oh, you mean the YugoBox class of derelicts.  Sorry, but there is no 
> such thing as space protected that well in the Imperium.  Piracy was 
> and would be a continuous problem everywhere within the Imperium, 
> even at the core.  Or did you think the Imperium stationed all those 
> SDB's & Gazelle Close Escorts in Core sector for military parades?  
> As a pirate, I'd be licking my chops to puncture the hull into a few 
> of these ships.  Be easier than stealing candy from a baby...

Of course it would be easier than stealing candy from a baby to knock off 
one of those Yugo ships.  But, like my example of the character with the 
stats of 222222, if the referee and players want to have a 
universe/setting wherein that type of ship can survive and/or have an 
interesting and fun time, then why not?  Heck, it don't bother me if 
group X wants their Imperium to be secure at its' center.

My Imperium has historically been a wee bit more dangerous, and I don't 
doubt Milieux 0 will be even more so...but, like I said, why not? :)  
It's a new idea, and that's nice to see.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 14:50:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> >I saw the boxed set of T:NE (rule book, FF&S, etc. in it) at the local
> >game store the other day.  Perhaps I should have bought it, if only for
> >reference.
> 
> I'm not going to tell you one way or another whether to buy it.  There's 
> some interesting stuff in there.  There's some garbage, but all in all 
> it's a good product.  

Too late for advice. :)  I called 'em and ordered it.  Hopefully it 
will be at my house by the weekend. :)   

I'm looking forward to reading this stuff, and in sharing in the 
discussions more in the future.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 15:57:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

 

On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> On 22 Jun 96 at 22:51, derek stanley spewed:
> > >   Agreed - as long as the character gets starting skills appropriate to
> > >the character class. One thing that really bugged me about CT was
> > >generating a marine grunt without gun combat, or a Navy medic without
> > >medic, or a navy pilot without Pilot ;-) you get the drift.
> 
> What, you mean every single person in the navy's medical service is a 
> surgeon?  

   Nope, but every _MEDIC_ should have medic skills - that's what a medic
DOES.

> Every marine truck driver is so skilled with a rifle that 
> he qualifies as a sniper?  

  YES. *In the marines* _everyone_ qualifies with rifle - even truck
drivers. (This is less true with army troops) Not as a sniper perhaps, but
certainly Rifle-1.

> You mean the grunt who works in the 57th 
> century equivalent of the bilges can pilot a ship through an asteroid 
> belt while being shot at by a BattleRider?

  Nope, but every *pilot* can.

> Not every character is going to develop the same level of skills.  
> OK, I agree with you, there should be a few more default skills.  
[snip]
> so maybe not).  But I can't see any way that you can justify giving 
> every single person who mans a gun, or repairs an engine Pilot-1.  
> Perhaps a better solution is to let them choose a default skill that 
> would reflect their specialty, after the fact...  The navy guy who 
> specialized in engineering...give him the choice of adding +1 to his 
> skill in engineering, or maybe mechanical or electronics.  Same thing 
> with gunners, and so on.  

   Sure, but the fact remains this is NOT a choice with CT. Sure, you can
use Book 4 for Marine characters and Book 5 for Navy characters, but where
does that leave the scientists and bureaucrat types? or spies? or
entertainers?

   TNE remains the best character generation system - why should I tinker
with CT when TNE already does everything I want better, easier? It even
has consistent education options, which only Books 4/5 characters do under
CT.

   Hopefully T4 will address these problems, and I believe that T4 will
probably be a lot closer to TNE than many CTers would like at first glance
but hopefully MM will be able to pull off acceptable compromises.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

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------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 15:59:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Big Rock vs Little RockS

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, 'Jomama' Charles Pratt wrote:

> shots at the very most).  And finally, it very likely that the system
> would then have a very ugly and unpredictable orbiting body (i.e. comet)
> that could come back to haunt them.

   At fractional cee velocities? The trajectory would be hyperbolic, not
parabolic. It would leave the solar system in almost a straight line.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

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------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 16:05:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> > Look at Cardovan Rink, the problem is the game tends not to focus on these
> > men and women.  Even the RCES is supposed to be a quasi mercantile
> > opperation.  I'm not sure what information is contained in the World Tamers
> 
> Yup, so mercantile that battle dress is standard issue.  Not sure I 
> buy this one at all Derek...

  Battle Dres isn't standard issue. The closest thing to standard issue is
the RCS body sleeve - hardly powered battle armour! 

> WTH is a book that I overlooked in my earlier post.  Although I 
> prefer the book that it stole most of its ideas from, WBH, as a 
> whole, WTH was a pretty good supplement.  

   I like the WTH, gives a lot of stuff I've wanted to see in Traveller
for a while.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

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violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 16:15:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> Tom Ellis wrote:
> > 
> > My point is that *silicon based lifeforms wouldnt "eat" non silicon
> > computers.  It was a good idea badly implemented.
> 
> I don't beleive that virus "ate".  It parasitized the other chips and 
> wrote it's code onto them.  I believe I read somewhere that virus has a 
> real problem when working with Fiberoptic based computers.  

8-)  The term "ate" was meant facetiously, a euphemism for compatability.
And yes, Virus, at least in my campaign, had big trouble with Fib
computers.


> 
> Is there a down side to organic computers?  How do you keep the organic 
> part alive?  Is it vulnerable to electromagnetic radiation?  These are 
> serious questions.

Everthing has a down side.  Just as an EMP disables a silicon based
computer, other radiations would no doubt destroy or inhibit organic
computers.  Organic doesn't necessarily mean alive though, just carbon
based.


> 
> Derek Stanley
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 16:37:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: law level & stuff

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> And a real nasty for the anti-terrorist folks. Intercept a shipment of
> black market supplies for the insurgents. Replace the fuse cord with
> detcord rigged to *look* like fuse. (fuse burns at feet per minute.
> Detcord "burns" at medium mach numbers:-)

  You are an EVIL bastard! <g>

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 




------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 14:00:49 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE differences

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:
> 
> > >I saw the boxed set of T:NE (rule book, FF&S, etc. in it) at the local
> > >game store the other day.  Perhaps I should have bought it, if only for
> > >reference.
> >
> > I'm not going to tell you one way or another whether to buy it.  There's
> > some interesting stuff in there.  There's some garbage, but all in all
> > it's a good product.
> 
> Too late for advice. :)  I called 'em and ordered it.  Hopefully it
> will be at my house by the weekend. :)
> 
> I'm looking forward to reading this stuff, and in sharing in the
> discussions more in the future.

Good for you Joe.  I'm sure someone's going to flame you for buying it 
but I think it takes an open mind to see something that everyone and 
their dog has slagged.

Remember, Siskle and Ebert gave two thumbs down to Star Wars.  Of course 
six months later they recanted.  8)

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 16:01:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: QSDS: Huge Table of Hulls

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> 
> Tired of not being able to find Just the Right Hull for your new
> QSDS ship design?  I've added the Huge Table of Hulls to the 
> web page, so that you'll have a greater variety to choose from.

Yaaay!  Perfect!

> What's missing?  Well, there still aren't any heavily-armored
> military hulls (perhaps I'll get to those soon) ...

Looking forward to it...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 17:02:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

 

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:
> 
> > Actually Joe you've hit the nail on the head.  Virus is the direct 
> > decendent of the Cymbline chips found in "Signal GK."  The only 
> > difference is these chips have been enhanced through selective breeding 
> > and programing.  Unfortunately though they got the chips to do what they 
> > wanted they never figured out how to control them.  When they were 
> > accidentally released all hell broke lose.
> 
> Now that I've learned from this discussion, the whole idea of the Virus 
> sounds much more realistic.  GDW seems to have done as good a job with 
> the Virus era as they did with all previous eras.  I should probably try 
> it sometime.
> 
> Only thing is, I'm so fond of the "nice future" of CT, and so tired of 
> "dark future" stories that it's unlikely I would enjoy it . . . no matter 
> how well-done it is.  

   I can't see how anyone could think of TNE as excessively dark. One of
the Big Things about TNE is the way players actually feel a part of the
rebuilding in a tangible way. You don't work for a huge impersonal
Imperium, you have a good chance of meeting senior personnel in the RC
hierarchy and the AO is still small enough for one group of characters to
become well known heroes.

  Done right, with enough background work by the ref, and players can get
a real charge after a "job well done". A difficult "Hot Recovery"
(personnel especially), a poli-sci job, whatever...

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

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------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 17:11:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, William F. Hostman wrote:

> >   *Any* computer programmer/system analyst can tell you how stupid that
> >idea is. For example, a Mac virus cannot harm a PC at all (different
> >binaries) so why is it so easy for Virus to invade *any* system above a
> >certain arbitrary limit of complexity? The concept of Virus invading *any*
> >system through *any* comunications link is stupid. Have you ever heard of
> >a virus infecting your machine through email?
> 
> yes. At work (novel netware, 10 station lan, Groupwise) we got a virus or
> two in attatchments containing software upgrades.

  (deliberate misunderstanding) So the text in the message - data, not
code, caused your machine to become infected by a Virus?

> Agreed, tho, the virus is silly due to the fact it can hit *ANY* computer
> system. Unless you assume the imperium has required a stadardized (or
> hardware translated) machine code schema.

  I could _almost_ buy a standard computer argument from the Imperium
standpoint (the "standard" trasnponder is a believable argument), what I
don't buy is:

1) *all* races - no matter what mental predjudices, tech level, social
viewpoint, engineering know-how, etc, were threatened by Virus. (Hivers
dodged the bullet, but only because they used active measures to defeat
Virus)

2) *all* computers, of *all* tech levels have architectural similarities
such that Virus can infect.

3) Fire control sensors (routinely used as vectors in Virus adventures)
which plainly have no use in computer communication, are able to receive
virus infections.
  

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

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------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 17:17:26 -0400
Subject: Stellare Classification

Derek Stanley wrote: 
>It is possible to though to 
>create a "Main World" in orbit of a gas giant that receives very little 
>visable light.  In such a system would the Gas Giant/brown dwarf be 
>considered a star for purposes of the Stellar type ie. G5 V or would it 
>simply be subsumed in the system and ignored in the stellar 
>classification.
You would ignore it for purpose of stellar classification, the only way
it would should up, would be in an extended system listing.

>I used to have this data but what do the various stellar classifications 
>stand for.  I think that the earths is a G5 V, Main sequence yellow star.
> what do the other letters stand for?  Red Giant, White Dwarf?  Or are 
>they just color?  Wait just a sec...  Letter refers to color, Number 
>refers to Luminosity and Roman Numeral refers to size.  Is that how it 
>goes?

	Not quite, the letter and the arabic number refer to the
spectral classification.  Which corresponds to how hot the star is. 
The hottest stars are the O, then B,A,F,G,K,M.  (Originally the stars
were classified by strength of spectral lines,and were later
reorganized, when people figured out why the lines varied) We only have
7 letters listed, and all O stars are not going to be exactly the same,
so we add a number to further specify the type.  
	The Roman Numeral gives the Luminosity class, which tells you
the rough age of the star.  
V=Main Sequence (When the star is burning Hydrogen at its core)
IV=Subgiant
III=Giant
II=Bright Giants
I=Supergiants.

I have no idea why the earliest stars are V, while latter stages are I. 
Hope this helps.
Lewis

------------------------------

From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:22:51 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Character death

If certain professions could have 'volunteer assignments'
which are 'very dangeorous' as well as the 'special duty'
then there ought to be an element of 'risk' here, if you dont
do the assignment or duty then you will be 'safer', but loose
out on potential skills, less chance of getting promotion (or more
chance in certain areas) but atleast you'll make it through your 
term.  However if choosing 'special duty' or 'volunteer' 
there should be a chance of 'injury --- fatal' occuring during
that mission, depending on the profession in question.  The
chance would *probably* be more in millatory professions.  If
this is made known before a term like 'oh we are expecting hostile
interests during this assignment'.

Another thing.
Characters that survive the generation and have gone through the
special duties are more likly to now be *hoarded* by the player
than where death was not an option.  I think that death during
generation would be a good idea.

ps
The new system is it going to be d20 based still?  Will only one
dice be required to resolve all disputes.  And ban d10's that look
like d20's (private joke).



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 16:28:09 -0500
Subject: Don't look now

>- -Joe (who just ordered T:NE (boxed set) from his local games store, so 
>he'll understand that system)
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
>ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
>Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)

Don't look now, but we might just have gained a convert!  ;)

Just kidding, Joe.  I hope you find lots of useful stuff in TNE.  I'm sure
you will.  DS (I think) is right about FF&S, though.  The first two to three
time through are killer, but after you get through it a few times, it takes
little more than a half hour for a slop ship, and about an hour for a normal
one.  Hope you enjoy your new stuff.


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 17:20:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#141] How's Your Imperium?

T::>Having discovered the list is rife with SCA types (well, two or three
 ::>anyway) I am forced to ask the following question:
 ::>How has this influenced the way you _run_ the Imperium.

 "Rife" is an appropriate word - there are four that I can recall
 hearing from (myself included) and one wannabe - and that's just
 from the active posters.  Who knows what's out there among the
 non-posting readers - I seem to recall Rob saying once that there
 were over 300 subscribers.

T::>I have a degree in history, focusing on the Roman and Byzantine eras.  Some
 ::>of my players also have similar degrees, and have pointed out to me that I
 ::>have (unconciously perhaps) run the Imperium very close to an Early Roman
 ::>Empire sort of state.  When they have travelled into more Vilani-dominated
 ::>areas, they have seen a very strong Byzantine influence.  The Zhodani
 ::>Consulate has become very Persian, and the Vargr Extents have become a
 ::>combination of celtic/gothic/vandal intertribal struggles and politics.
 ::>Nonje of this was really a concious decision on my part; I just took GDW's
 ::>cues and my own background and ran with it.  It has made me wonder if people
 ::>with an SCA background are running their Imperium more like a traditional
 ::>Feudal model and society.

 Y'know, I never really thought about it, but now that you mention
 it, I think that my knowledge of history, as gleaned from my SCA
 activities, _does_ provide a minor influence on my Imperium.
 Later European history provides my Imperial government; my
 Imperium is a "strong fealty" Imperium, much like the later
 English/British and French models (before the English king was
 reined in by Parliament). Vargr tend to have a middle-eastern
 Bedouin feel about them, Aslan are Feudal Japanese more than
 anything else, and Zhodani are Roman Republic, with a touch of
 Inquisition (although one of my players thinks of them as a
 socialist (nominally Communist) oligarchy).

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Life is a ferrari - costs too much and goes too fast


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #152
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 24 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 153

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: TNE differences
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #149
         3. Re: TNE differences
         4. Re: Don't look now
         5. Re: Virus by Email
         6. Re: Don't look now
         7. Re: Next Cheap but profitable ship
         8. Killing the Imperium
         9. Re: m^3 vs kl
        10. Re: Death during generation
        11. Re: Character death
        12. Virus
        13. Combining the Lists???
        14. Re: Next Cheap but profitable ship
        15. YugoGoodHumorMan
        16. YugoBoxes vs. Pirates
        17. TNE 
        18. Re: Big Rock vs Little RockS
        19. Re: TNE differences

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 16:52:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> Good for you Joe.  I'm sure someone's going to flame you for buying it 
> but I think it takes an open mind to see something that everyone and 
> their dog has slagged.

Thanks for the support.  As far as people flaming because I'm 
investigating TNE, I hope not.  Even if I have no plans of using the 
system (which I don't...after all, T4 is coming out in less than 2 
months!), it's a good idea to buy it for several reasons.  1)  FF&S, in 
modified form, will be used in T4, so learning that now will give me a 
head start, 2) Lots of people here play and/or are familiar with TNE, so 
if I want to talk to them I'd better know about it, too (common frame of 
reference), and 3) even if I hate TNE after reading it, I'll at least 
have the advantage of "knowing mine enemy." :)

> Remember, Siskle and Ebert gave two thumbs down to Star Wars.  Of course 
> six months later they recanted.  8)

No kidding!  I had no idea.  (Sorry, off topic, but that surprised me.)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 16:53:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #149

>How about Islamic Law? Ignoring the weirdness the Islamic fundies have
>come up with (they twist things about as much as Christian fundies
>do!), I understand it's a "reasonable" system, just very *different*. 
>(Probably counts as "civil law")

"Reasonable" ?!!!
Recently the high court of Iran ruled that anyone who did not believe
that the world was flat was an athiest.  And athiests are commended to
death in Iran.  

By the way, just to be fair.  Chistianity also went through this 
same "reasonable" set of laws once upon a time.

- -Daniel


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 16:54:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Larry Hadley wrote:

> > Only thing is, I'm so fond of the "nice future" of CT, and so tired of 
> > "dark future" stories that it's unlikely I would enjoy it . . . no matter 
> > how well-done it is.  
> 
>    I can't see how anyone could think of TNE as excessively dark. One of

Excessively dark?  True, it's not in the league with the White Wolf games 
and such, but it does fall into the Gamma World type 
category...rebuilding after a major distaster.  The rebuilding part is 
good, the disaster isn't.  


> the Big Things about TNE is the way players actually feel a part of the
> rebuilding in a tangible way. You don't work for a huge impersonal
> Imperium, you have a good chance of meeting senior personnel in the RC
> hierarchy and the AO is still small enough for one group of characters to
> become well known heroes.
> 
>   Done right, with enough background work by the ref, and players can get
> a real charge after a "job well done". A difficult "Hot Recovery"
> (personnel especially), a poli-sci job, whatever...

Good points.  I'll try to set my pre-judged opinions aside until I've 
actually read the manuals.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 16:56:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Don't look now

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> Don't look now, but we might just have gained a convert!  ;)

<zombie-like chant> "Join us........Join us......Join us...." :)
 
> Just kidding, Joe.  I hope you find lots of useful stuff in TNE.  I'm sure
> you will.  DS (I think) is right about FF&S, though.  The first two to three
> time through are killer, but after you get through it a few times, it takes
> little more than a half hour for a slop ship, and about an hour for a normal
> one.  Hope you enjoy your new stuff.

Luckily, when I have trouble there are lots of nice folks here who can 
help me! :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 15:41:46 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

Larry Hadley wrote:
> 
>  I could _almost_ buy a standard computer argument from the Imperium
>standpoint (the "standard" trasnponder is a believable argument), what I
>don't buy is:
> 
>1) *all* races - no matter what mental predjudices, tech level, social
>viewpoint, engineering know-how, etc, were threatened by Virus. (Hivers
>dodged the bullet, but only because they used active measures to defeat
>Virus)

I'm not sure I get your point here.  Are you saying that you don't 
beleive that Virus presented a threat to all the races or something else? 
 The Hiver's antivirus countermeasure was a hastily developed "tame" 
virus.  The Hiver's still took a beatin' from the Virus.
 
>2) *all* computers, of *all* tech levels have architectural similarities
>such that Virus can infect.

Virus can infect all computers, that's what it was designed to do.  Virus 
cannot control all computers.  SOme computers just aren't "large" enough 
for it to become a problem.  ie virus could inhabit a portable medical 
computer, it couldn't do anything with it because the computer isn't big 
enough for it to grow properly.
 
>3) Fire control sensors (routinely used as vectors in Virus adventures)
>which plainly have no use in computer communication, are able to receive
>virus infections.

In this case the Virus would be received in one of two ways.

1)  Sensor's as they are designed to send and receive information 
although it is technically pulses in active sensors  could be used as a 
conduit.  Passive sensors would be much more susseptable than active 
ones.

2)  Missle communication sensors.  Knowing where a ship is if you had the 
same communication system you could in theory, talk to the ship.  ie two 
missle gunboats if they wanted to their MFD opperators could chat back 
and forth through the laser communication system that the missles use.

DS 
> 
> -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
>    Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
>    http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html
> 
> Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
> in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of
> violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 15:52:41 -0700
Subject: Re: Don't look now

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> <zombie-like chant> "Join us........Join us......Join us...." :)

Shouldn't that read.  "one of us...one of us...one of us..."  never mind it was 
a horrible movie.  8)
 
> > Just kidding, Joe.  I hope you find lots of useful stuff in TNE.  I'm sure
> > you will.  DS (I think) is right about FF&S, though.  The first two to three
> > time through are killer, but after you get through it a few times, it takes
> > little more than a half hour for a slop ship, and about an hour for a normal
> > one.  Hope you enjoy your new stuff.
> 
> Luckily, when I have trouble there are lots of nice folks here who can
> help me! :)
> Absolutely.  I'll expect you all to save your mail while I reformat my 
hard-drive tonight.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 17:32:21 -0600
Subject: Re: Next Cheap but profitable ship

On 06/24/96 at 12:50 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
said:

>These designs are a great idea!  Why not have unarmed/unarmored
>ships?  I  mean, it's not like every passenger plane/train/ship/bus
>in the world is  armored, let alone armed! :)  Very realistic. 
>Referees will have to take  care not to go overboard on the number of
>Pirates roaming around space  (if there were tons, then this sort of
>ship would quickly be abandoned by  all but the most foolhardy of
>traders!) so as to make the universe  consistent.  

There would be areas where SDB's would make a system pretty immune
from pirate attack. They would escort merchants out to jump points,
patrol areas around gas giants, etc.  Merchant ships that stick to
systems like that wouldn't need armor or arms.  In fact, armed ships
would be looked on as *potential* raiders by the local system police.

Other parts of space would be much less safe.  Fringe areas, low
pop/tech worlds wouldn't have System Police with SDB's to insure safe
passage of merchants.  This is where merchant ships would be armed and
armored.  However, I don't think they would have much armor or be well
armed...too costly, eats up too much cargo space.  Traders will almost
always prefer running to fighting.

OTOH, I haven't checked Bruce's designs to see if they reflect the
MDrive bug-fix yet.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 16:44:05 -0600
Subject: Killing the Imperium

On 06/24/96 at 07:16 AM,  matth <matth@ritz.mordor.com> said:

>It sounds to me like GDW needed a way to destroy the Imperium of the
>past, but still have something left. In MT they were hinting that the
>Deneb would be a stand-alone empire. 

Sure, that's exactly what they were up to.  I'd have much preferred an
extended civil war and general economic collapse.  I thought that's
where MT was going.  We did have the "Long Night" as a model after
all.

The Virus gave them:

>1. A destroyed empire.

It did that!  Unfortunately, I think it went too far.

>2. A single enemy to reunify anyone who was left. They got this enemy
>rather cheaply, without having the spend the time developing some
>very high  tech malicious alien. 

...and it left a bad taste in my mouth.  <g> You know, there were a
lot of things about the TNE rules I liked..and lots I didn't like, but
I never bought into the Virus.  Mankind is plenty malicious enough to
have done it all by himself.

The problem was after the Basic Set and FFS, I stopped buying
*anything* concerning TNE. It just didn't fit the way I wanted to do
things.  I didn't like "Smash and Grab", or the RCES, or even the
Regency.

What I'd have liked to have seen were several small multi-system
states competing for the opportunity to rebuild the Imperium to its
former glory.  I think that's where things would have ended up, sans
Virus.  I *think* Milieu 0 is going to put us there, and give me the
environment what I want to play in. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 17:14:52 -0600
Subject: Re: m^3 vs kl

On 06/24/96 at 11:01 AM,  anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
said:

>>request however, can we stay consistant and not switch back and forth
>>between cubic meters and kiloliters,

>cubic meters are the same as kilolitres. 1L= 10cm x 10cm x 10cm

Yes William, I know.  ;-> I'd just much prefer not switching back and
forth between the two terms from step to step in a desgin process like
was done in FFS.  

My understanding is that standard deckplans will be 2'x2'x3.5' for T4. 
So each hex/square will be 1 displacement ton.  Folks that are
designing standard sized containers, fixtures, etc might want to keep
that in mind. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 18:15:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Death during generation

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, pierre-louis constantin wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> 	What *I* like to do (meaning, nobody else in the world,
> usually :) is to use a SINGLE roll during generation, with the
> appropriate DMs:
> Suppose the target is 8, but it depends on the career of the
> character;
> Roll	Diff from Target	Result	Meaning
> 2	-6			Death	Character is dead, big fumble
> 4	-4			Wound	Was wounded (or demoted
> twice)
> 6	-2			Demoted	Lose a rank - if you fall
> below 0, you're fired
> 8	0			Keep on generating
> 10	+2			Comission	Get rank 1
> 12	+4			Promotion	Gain 1 rank


Hi Pierre,

Looks like a workable system.  What do you use for the values?  Are they 
derived by averaging the survival, commission, and promotion target numbers?

> Don't forget the DM's.  I prefer this system over the 3 rolls (death,
> comission, promotion) because it's faster although you lose a tiny
> bit of game detail.  Also you have very unlikely to die, which
> shouldn't happen, really, during character generation, because
> there's no point to it!  unless you're playing solo.

Right.  The way character generation is presented in CT, generating a 
character becomes a solo game in itself.


> Also I like the idea of having some control over your skill selection
> - in real life you do have some control over what you want to study,
> but you don't always have the chance to to what you want.

True.

> So what I like is a system where you ROLL your 'duty', and you get
> to pick a skill in a skill table associated with that duty.
> (i.e. you don't really get to chose what happens to you in life,
> but you try to make the best of it.)

Hmmm. An interesting idea. It would certainly be playable.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 18:19:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Character death

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk wrote:

> If certain professions could have 'volunteer assignments'
> which are 'very dangeorous' as well as the 'special duty'
> then there ought to be an element of 'risk' here, if you dont
> do the assignment or duty then you will be 'safer', but loose
> out on potential skills, less chance of getting promotion (or more
> chance in certain areas) but atleast you'll make it through your 
> term.  However if choosing 'special duty' or 'volunteer' 
> there should be a chance of 'injury --- fatal' occuring during
> that mission, depending on the profession in question.  The
> chance would *probably* be more in millatory professions.  If
> this is made known before a term like 'oh we are expecting hostile
> interests during this assignment'.

This is an interesting idea, and it wouldn't require very much 
modification to the advanced character generation systems.  Just pick the 
duty assignment (or, make two tables - one of the less-lethal assignments 
like garrison, the other table having only risky assignments), then use 
the same tables.  It may prove necessary to change some of the skills and 
skill tables, though.


> Another thing.
> Characters that survive the generation and have gone through the
> special duties are more likly to now be *hoarded* by the player
> than where death was not an option.  I think that death during
> generation would be a good idea.

True.  But, I haven't run into too many players of any RPG (other than 
experienced players of Paranoia) who don't treasure their characters. :)
"What do you mean Mergatroid's dead?!?!?  I /knew/ you were out to get 
me!!!!" ;)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Edward Baltz <eabaltz@pac2.berkeley.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 16:50:01 -0700
Subject: Virus

It _is_ stated that virus can only attack computers of a certain complexity or
higher.  Assume that this allows some rudimentary ability to understand human
languages.  The virus could then contain source code and human language
instructions on how to compile that source code on whatever machine it happens
to infect.  I believe that there are viruses like this now.  If sh exists on
the system, and there's a C compiler, the thing can compile itself.  Remember
that the computers that we deal with are TL8, and the Imperium has computers
several tech levels higher.  Our knowledge of how computers work is probably
going to be useless in 100 years, let alone thousands.

I _do_ think the whole virus thing was kind of hokey though... :)
but it's within the realm of possibility

Ted Baltz
eabaltz@pac2.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:01:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Combining the Lists???

I think TML and XTML *should* be combined.  I vote "yes."  (Now we just
need someone to track the votes...)

Franklin


------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 14:34:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Next Cheap but profitable ship

 One thing(and I aggree about the piracy problem...in a way) that you
people are forgetting is that ships like this would travel in convoys,
with a few escorts(mebbe a Gazelle or two).
 While it would be easy for a determined pirate to disable a few of
them(disabling and not destroying especialley when they have t plates
would be hard), it would quickley sap the $ from the pirates credit
stashes.

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:49:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: YugoGoodHumorMan

> YugoGoodHumorMan...all low passengers

Bwah-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!  :-)

Franklin


------------------------------

From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:55:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: YugoBoxes vs. Pirates

Ever heard of *convoys*?  Why do you think the Gazelle-class is called a
Close *Escort*?  In the core sectors, you'd get a *lot* of traffic that
could easily schedule itself to leave/arrive on the same day (along with a
friendly military escort or two...).  

Franklin


------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 21:00:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: TNE 

Good luck with TNE Jo!!  I had only bought MegaTraveller and CT, and when I
bought TNE I was slightly prejudiced against it.  However, what I found was
an interesting background (I for one, do find the Virus believable) and a
way to play in the setting I liked (The Regency).  Also, something I realyl
like about TNE are the 'pocket empires' options.  THis definitely is a plus
for the game

With the rules, I really can't say.  I think they're better than CT but
about on par with MT.  Actually, in my games I utilize a mix of the two
systems, with some stuff of my own added in.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a copy of FF&S, so I'll probably
hold off and buy the updated version when it comes out.

(The above were MY opinions.  Any flames should NOT be directed to me, or
the mailing list as I don't care to hear them.  Constructive arguements are
welcome)

Peter Miller


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 18:14:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Big Rock vs Little RockS

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Hmmm. Now *there* is a thought. A fractional c asteroid calculated to
> *cancel* the orbital velocity of the planet. Sure, the planet would go
> to pieces, but most of the pieces would fall into the sun. (note, if
> you stop the earth in it's orbit it'll take 131 days to reach the Sun).

Now THAT would take some serious wattage.

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 18:16:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> Charles Pratt wrote:
>
> >Well, if you want to play the it-is-the-57th-century-card, and you take a
> >look at data correction systems nowadays, it is conceivable (and likely)
> >that some computer guy somewhere said, hey, why don't we make self
> >maintaining and correcting hardware...
>
> This is potentially do able.

Maybe i'll take a patent out on it.  I will own the rights to the
technology that will eventually enable the destruction of the Imperium
(those guys over at IG ought to LOVE that).

> DS
>

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #153
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 24 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 154

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: TNE differences
         2. Re: Death during Character Generation
         3. Re: Regency vs. RC
         4. Re: Profitiable Starships
         5. Re: Big Rock vs Little RockS
         6. RE: Legal systems
         7. RE: Legal systems
         8. Nuke Grenades
         9. Re: PDF
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #144
        11. Re: TNE differences
        12. Re: YugoGoodHumorMan
        13. Re: Regency vs. RC
        14. Re: Virus by Email
        15. Re: Virus by Email
        16. New QSD Design -- Bulk Freighter

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 18:21:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> Is there a down side to organic computers?  How do you keep the organic
> part alive?  Is it vulnerable to electromagnetic radiation?  These are
> serious questions.

Your ship comes down with the virus.  Cold virus, that is.  heh.

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 18:36:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Death during Character Generation

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> 	I hated that part...ever take a half-dozen new Traveller players
> through that? Especially when they're RP'ers like my wife: her
> characters been named, has a nick name, a family history, a drawing
> of her character on the sheet, all before we even got to the career
> generation stuff.  She was used to D&D roll your stats and that's it.

I know nothing other than the TNE system (minor MT experience).  But it
would seem to me that the easiest way to go about thing would be to
pre-determine the number of terms one's character will serve.  Course that
would eliminate traveller as a system where it can actually be FUN to play
geezers.  nyuk.

- -----
	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 18:40:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Regency vs. RC

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Tom Miller wrote:

> I just read a message taking some quotes from TNE, excellent picks Derek!  I
> personally have enjoyed the Regency setting more than the RC, whom I didn't
> really like, (though I can't say why really, I don't know).  However, I
> would have liked to have seen what happens in the future, when these two
> adversaries meet (as the quotes alude to).
>
> Any ideas on what would happen?

Well, knee-jerk would be that the Regency would steam roll the RC.  But
then one must consider what the assimilation of a culture as tenacious as
the RC would do to the Imperium.  Is there enough memory of the Imperium
in the RC that they would re-integrate with the latest extention of the
Imperium (I have limited RC knowledge)?  And then, of course, there's the
Hivers...

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 18:45:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Profitiable Starships

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
>
> > > So, in that spirit, I present the 'YugoBox' class of simple freighters:
> > > no armor, no weapons, no passengers, just a hole in space to fill with
> >
> > Oh, you mean the YugoBox class of derelicts.  Sorry, but there is no
> > such thing as space protected that well in the Imperium.  Piracy was
> > and would be a continuous problem everywhere within the Imperium,
> > even at the core.  Or did you think the Imperium stationed all those
> > SDB's & Gazelle Close Escorts in Core sector for military parades?
> > As a pirate, I'd be licking my chops to puncture the hull into a few
> > of these ships.  Be easier than stealing candy from a baby...

To a certain extent, yes...BUT (don't you hate that word?)...  Chances are
cargo carried in a yugowhateveritscalled would not be worth stealing
(that's the whole point of the ship, if I understand correctly).  Why
would the pirates knock of a garbage scow?  Chances are, it wouldn't even
be worth it to capture it and strip parts.  Also, in the spinward main, it
would work great for the short hops from well guarded system to well
guarded system.   Good enough system defence, and you don't need to worry
about pirates within _at least_ 100 diameters from the planet, and that's
all you need.

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 18:48:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Big Rock vs Little RockS

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Larry Hadley wrote:

>
> On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, 'Jomama' Charles Pratt wrote:
>
> > shots at the very most).  And finally, it very likely that the system
> > would then have a very ugly and unpredictable orbiting body (i.e. comet)
> > that could come back to haunt them.
>
>    At fractional cee velocities? The trajectory would be hyperbolic, not
> parabolic. It would leave the solar system in almost a straight line.

Point taken.  I'm just good at thinking up ideas...not making them work.
That's for you hard science types ;)

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 09:48:41 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: RE: Legal systems

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>>From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
>
>[Good, incisive comments deleted.]
>
>>>It's only Louisiana, as far as I know.
>>
>>        California, too, I believe, since it was originally a Spanish
>>possession and thus civil law ran.  I had occasion to go searching through
>>the California Corporations Code the other day; its laid out in almost
>>exactly the same way as a civilian civil code is.
>
>I practice law in California, so I don't think of it as a civil law
>jurisdiction.  You're quite right, however, about civil law influence on the
>California Code.  The California Code is huge compared to other state codes,
>much more like a civil code than a common law set of statutes. 

        Yeah... I wasn't quite sure about California.
 
>
>I hope that some of this discussion has been of use or interest to Traveller
>referees.  
>
>- --Glenn


        Me too... it doesn't seem to have generated much interest, though :(.




   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   |-------------------------------------------------|
   | "An imperfect plan implemented immediately and  |
   |  violently will always succeed better than a    |
   |  perfect plan"                                  |
   |	             -Gen. George Patton             |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 09:48:44 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: RE: Legal systems

Leonard M. Erickson wrote:

>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net> writes:
>
>>         Bang on.  As well, there are procedural differences; the common law
[my stuff snipped]
>>         Then there's modern Russian law: if your debtor is in default,
>> rather than call your lawyer, you call your local mafia boss, and a
>> half-dozen guys named Vlad in track suits with Kalashnikovs go shoot him.
>
>How about Islamic Law? Ignoring the weirdness the Islamic fundies have
>come up with (they twist things about as much as Christian fundies
>do!), I understand it's a "reasonable" system, just very *different*. 
>(Probably counts as "civil law")

        Agh! NO! <brief interlude as I go hopping around my desk trying to
pull my hair out by the roots>.  Ok... now that I've chilled out, Civil law
is not a catch-all category for legal systems that aren't common-law; it
refers to a very specific legal tradition descended from Roman law, with
some inputs from Germanic custom and other later European systems, that's
been studied in European universities since the 1300's, was throroughly
codified in Europe over the 19th century, and is now followed by much of the
planet; Continental Europe, parts of North America, Latin America, the PRC,
Taiwan, Japan, former French and German colonies worldwide all use civil
law.  Common law is used only in former British possessions.

        Saying that Islamic law is civilian is like saying that there's no
need to have a separate skill for cavalry dragoon and for FO :).  I'd
suspect, not that I know anything much about it, that it is way different
from the civil law; things like the prohibition on interest, polygamy, and
ease of divorce are completely alien to the civil law tradition...


>
>Hmmmm. I may have to dig up a Koran and some commentaries. I can just
>see the players landing on an Islamic planet. :-)

        That would make for an interesting adventure, and wopuld be a lot of
fun to research and prepare...  although planetary rotation would make
praying in the direction of Mecca an interesting affair.  The Faithful would
have to be very up on their celestial mechanics :).

>
>ps. as I understand it, a lot of English common law dates back to
>*Norse* influences. 

        Could be.  The common law as such has its roots in the justice
dispensed by William the Conqueror's magistrates; given that numbers of
Norse settled in the British Isles, I imagine that their legal influence was
felt to some degree...  Glenn could probably answer this better than I can.

>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort



   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   |-------------------------------------------------|
   | "An imperfect plan implemented immediately and  |
   |  violently will always succeed better than a    |
   |  perfect plan"                                  |
   |	             -Gen. George Patton             |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 09:48:47 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Nuke Grenades

Leonard M. Erickson wrote:

>
>Why waste a perfectly good nuke grenade? Besides, it got the point
>across. It's much better to show someone that you could have blown them
>away if you'd felt like it than to actually blow them away. Unless they
>are nut cases (or *stupid*) they will decide that they shouldn't mess
>with you, *and* they'll try to convince their buddies that it ain't
>healthy to mess with you.
>

        Perfectly good nuke grenade?  Dude, you're scaring me.  I said
thermonuclear hand grenade as a joke; point being that the thrower would for
all intents and practical purposes be at Ground Zero just like the target.
I got the idea out of one of those Real Men/Real Roleplayers/Real
Loonies/Munchkin files out there... you know:

Real Men use Fusion Guns
Real Roleplayers use Flechette Guns
Real Loonies use Thermonuclear Hand Grenades
Munchkins use whatever gives the most plusses...




   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   |-------------------------------------------------|
   | "An imperfect plan implemented immediately and  |
   |  violently will always succeed better than a    |
   |  perfect plan"                                  |
   |	             -Gen. George Patton             |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 19:51:17 -0600
Subject: Re: PDF

At 04:56 pm 6/23/96 -0400, you wrote:
>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> 
>> PDF is some sort of oddball file format. I can't recal *what* uses it
>> right now, but something does, and that's why I was thinking similar
>> things. 
>
>
>It is Adobe's Portable Document Format.  Not all that oddball 8-).
>Readers are available for Windows, Macs and Os/2, including a netscape
>plugin.  There may be a *nix version too.

        *Readers* are available. But how many people out there won't want to
customize it at least somewhat? I'd much rather have something I can edit,
merge into all my other stuff, reformat, etc., etc.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 19:51:22 -0600
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #144

At 02:35 pm 6/24/96 +0200, you wrote:
>>        Instead of either, we could use kiloliters (kl) -- one kl IS one
>>cubic meter. It's just that liters are usually used to indicate volume of
>>liquids, but there's no hard physical rule ("WARNING: FUSION WILL NOT OCCUR
>>IF YOU MEASURE THE REACTION CHAMBER IN KL").
>
>I'm shure Dave Golden is American as every european knows that one doesn't
>measure anything in kiloliters, that was a unit invented by DGP for unknown
>reasons. Kiloliters and m3 are exactly the same but the former doesn't
>exist in the real world and the latter is harder to write on crummy
>wordprocessors as it should end with an exponent.

        Actually, I grew up in Europe. And kiloliters is a perfectly
legitimate metric unit ... the standard prefix "kilo-" for thousand, and
"-liter" for the volume of 1 kg of water at a specific temperature.

        Just because it's not commonly used doesn't mean it's not "real." I
have seen it used elsewhere beside DGP when referring to a large quantity of
liquid ... 10kl is easier to write than 10,000l. Likewise, you won't find
roadsigns marked in Mm (megameters - 1,000km or 1,000,000m), but it is used
where large distances are involved.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 18:55:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

> > Remember, Siskle and Ebert gave two thumbs down to Star Wars.  Of course
> > six months later they recanted.  8)
>
> No kidding!  I had no idea.  (Sorry, off topic, but that surprised me.)

Course, if you watch Star Wars critically (don't get me wrong, its one of
the greatest flicks out there), it does come up a little short.  If you
watch it in french it gets even worse (Obi Wan says, for instance,
something akin to: "I found this sword.  I think it's your fathers.  You
can have it").

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 19:02:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: YugoGoodHumorMan

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Franklin W. Cain wrote:

> > YugoGoodHumorMan...all low passengers
>
> Bwah-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!  :-)

Would you ride in one of those things?  YugoToTheMorgue sounds better.

And I just have to say it.  Use them as prisoner
transports...YugoDirectlyToJailDoNotPassGoDoNotCollect200Dollars.

There.  We now return you to the regularly scheduled broadcast.

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:04:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Regency vs. RC

>Well, knee-jerk would be that the Regency would steam roll the RC.  But
>then one must consider what the assimilation of a culture as tenacious as
>the RC would do to the Imperium.  Is there enough memory of the Imperium
>in the RC that they would re-integrate with the latest extention of the
>Imperium (I have limited RC knowledge)?  And then, of course, there's the
>Hivers...

Also, the Regency kept it's advanced technology, unlike the RC.  While they
have been able to rebuild, they can't be at the same level (I ONLY have the
main TNE books, so correct me if wrong).

I was wondering what the RC's reaction to the Regency even existing would
be, I mean culturally.  If you think about it, the Regency embodies some of
the things the RC hates, like nobility (albeit in a limited form), and of
course, the spelling of 'humaniti' :)  

And, as the quotes Derek used show, the Regency, at least, in the future
believes that the Star Viking methods were harsh, but perhaps necessary, so
maybe they lost to them.  Who knows?

Peter Miller

>-----
>
>	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
>         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
>			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."
>
>
>


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:41:59 -0600
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

At 10:41 am 6/24/96 -0800, you wrote:
>>   *Any* computer programmer/system analyst can tell you how stupid that
>>idea is. For example, a Mac virus cannot harm a PC at all (different
>>binaries) so why is it so easy for Virus to invade *any* system above a
>>certain arbitrary limit of complexity? The concept of Virus invading *any*
>>system through *any* comunications link is stupid. Have you ever heard of
>>a virus infecting your machine through email?

>Agreed, tho, the virus is silly due to the fact it can hit *ANY* computer
>system. Unless you assume the imperium has required a stadardized (or
>hardware translated) machine code schema.
>

        Hmm... standardized machine code, runs on multiple platforms, can be
used maliciously on people who unknowingly access it ... OMIGOD! Virus is
Java! Sun takes over the world in the future!

        There are already people creating processors that can run Java
*natively*.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:10:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

 

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> Larry Hadley wrote:
> > 
> >  I could _almost_ buy a standard computer argument from the Imperium
> >standpoint (the "standard" trasnponder is a believable argument), what I
> >don't buy is:
> > 
> >1) *all* races - no matter what mental predjudices, tech level, social
> >viewpoint, engineering know-how, etc, were threatened by Virus. (Hivers
> >dodged the bullet, but only because they used active measures to defeat
> >Virus)
> 
> I'm not sure I get your point here.  Are you saying that you don't 
> beleive that Virus presented a threat to all the races or something else? 
>  The Hiver's antivirus countermeasure was a hastily developed "tame" 
> virus.  The Hiver's still took a beatin' from the Virus.

   I'm saying that TNE assumes *all* races were threatened by Virus, yet
logically this makes no sense. 

   To try to make this more clear, let's compare US and Russian computer
design. The American computers and Russian computers have *totally*
different form factors, and even less compatible architectural
differences. This is from two different societies on Earth at more-or-less
the same tech-level (Traveller scale). Can you imagine the difficulties
you would have trying to mate hardware designed by two different races at
two different tech-levels? Different form-factors, different
*assumptions*, different *engineering* - hell they may not have the same
views on LOGIC. Yet these differung systems are all vulnerable to the
*same* Virus? Get real...

> >2) *all* computers, of *all* tech levels have architectural similarities
> >such that Virus can infect.
> 
> Virus can infect all computers, that's what it was designed to do.  Virus 
> cannot control all computers.  SOme computers just aren't "large" enough 
> for it to become a problem.  ie virus could inhabit a portable medical 
> computer, it couldn't do anything with it because the computer isn't big 
> enough for it to grow properly.

  It's impossible to "design" a Virus that can infect *all* computers,
even if you assume that the computers not complex enough to support virus
aren't included in the definition.

  Architectures won't just change from race to race, they'll change from
tech-level to tech-level as new technologies come on line and make
different techniques possible. Varying architectures _insure_ that Virus
cannot run it's code on *all* machines. 

  If after reading this, you still don't get the point, then I challenge
you to write a Virus that can infect *both* my '486 PC, running OS/2 and a
68x0x0 Mac, running Sys/7 - with*out* any differences in the Virus
between the two. Further, the process must be *invisible*, must not give
any clues to it's existence prior to infection, and is unremovable without
destroying the computer. (Another dumb stipulation by GDW)

> 1)  Sensor's as they are designed to send and receive information 
> although it is technically pulses in active sensors  could be used as a 
> conduit.  Passive sensors would be much more susseptable than active 
> ones.
> 
> 2)  Missle communication sensors.  Knowing where a ship is if you had the 
> same communication system you could in theory, talk to the ship.  ie two 
> missle gunboats if they wanted to their MFD opperators could chat back 
> and forth through the laser communication system that the missles use.

   Sensors send/read DATA, period. No executable machine code is loaded
into the computer via sensors, if it were I wouldn't even bother building
Warships I'd just use computer overrides to take control of enemy ships.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:06:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: New QSD Design -- Bulk Freighter

Hello,

My first attempt at a QSD design, and only my third at ANY starship (I've
done a CT design and a FFSLite design).  

The Bulk Freighter is somewhat similar to the Yugo transports suggested in
earlier posts.  However, I like the idea of a somewhat volitile Imperial
core, even in the best of times, so I have made this freighter armed with a
civilian battery, and some sandcasters.

Please give me your comments, and corrections, as, like I said this is my
first attempt at a QSD design.  Thanks.

BULK FREIGHT CARRIER

Tons  4000		Volume 3823.2		Cost 305.052 MCr
Crew    15		    (No Passengers at all)
Cargo 3500!		Controls Std		Tech Level 11

09 Size				01 Jump
00 Fire Control 		01 G-Rating\Thruster Plates
01 Battery  1/0/0/0		.25 Power (is that correct?)
00 Battery  0/0/0/0		00 Meson 
00 Battery  0/0/0/0		03 (72) Sand Caster
00 Battery  0/0/0/0             00 Nuclear Dampers
00 Battery  0/0/0/0             A0 P2 J0 Sensors
00 Battery  0/0/0/0		
				00 Armour		20 Structure

The Bulk Freight Carrier is a monstrous beast of a ship.  It is meant for
long-haul large shipments, and it similar to the large supercarriers of late
20th century Terra.

The ship's crew complement of 15 is comprised of: 5 Engineers, 2
Electronics, 2 Manuver, 4 Gunners, 2 Command.  There is a bridge, in which
the workstations for everyone but Engineers reside.  The Captain has a large
stateroom, and his Executive officer has a small stateroom.  The rest of the
crew are relegated to bunks.

The ship carries enough fuel for several years of operating capacity without
stops, and is frequently sent on that sort of long-haul.

Note:  The price of the ship takes into account the 25% discount on QSDS designs


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #154
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 25 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 155

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. TNE Quotes (Virus and My Favorite)(longish)
         2. Re: Virus by Email
         3. Re: Death during Character Generation
         4. Re: Virus by Email
         5. How's your Imperium? (Big, Looong)
         6. Re: Imperial Heraldry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:42:09 -0500
Subject: TNE Quotes (Virus and My Favorite)(longish)

Since others have shared some TNE quotes, and since I said I'd look up the
Virus information tonight, I thought I'd share two quotes.  But first...

>Peter Miller
>Subject: TNE 

>Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a copy of FF&S, so I'll probably
>hold off and buy the updated version when it comes out.

If you want a copy, they may still ahve one in the hobby shop down here.
Last time I was there (about a month ago, now) they had one of everything
including a Traveller TNE Tee Shirt.  If anyone is interested, I can look
for something for you, and I also know of a store that might have some stuff
in Greenville, SC where I used to live.  (I live on the Mississippi coast,
anyone nearby??)

Now, on to the quotes...

This first one is the information from Survival Margin that I said I would
look up.  If any one is interested, it comes from page 92, midway down the
left hand column.  Subject: Virus  (/text/ - italics & _text_ - bold)

             "Remember, the virus is a /plot device/ to bring us from 
        _MegaTraveller's_ Rebellion into the New Era's New Dawn; it is not /the 
        plot/ of _Traveller: The New Era_.  The New Era is not about travelling 
        around space trying not to get infected by the virus.  The virus still 
        exists, but is under a certain amount of control by then.  But the
virus 
        is the one harrowing experience that everyone will have shared between 
        now and then.  Londoners remember the Blitz, Americans remember
Vietnam, 
        and _Traveller: The New Era_ characters remember the Collapse."

The second quote is, I think, my favorite quote from all of the TNE
material.  IMHO, this quote sums up the feelings and life of the members of
the RC who regularly operate in the wilds.  Here it is from Path of Tears
page 5.

             "...Big Meg Enders was the one who said, 'Bongo, I think you're 
        Senior.'
             "So, I was.  Between it being a small team and Dum-Dum away with 
        the Navy, I was Senior at Table for the first time ever, which is no
big 
        deal except you have to offer the toast.  In some services I've heard 
        the junior rank present offers the toast, but for usit's always been 
        Senior.  It's always the same toast; how many hundred times have I
heard 
        it?  How many hundred dinners?  So I stood up, cleared my throat, and 
        started the toast.
             "'Brothers and sisters--to...'  And then I stopped, because all of 
        the sudden I couldn't say anything around the knot in my throat.  I 
        couldn't see very well either.  I'd seen others choke up giving the 
        toast, but they were all old farts.  Not like me.  How the hell did I 
        get here?  How was I Senior at this table?  Where were all the others?  
        All the people who'd taught me, watched over me, helped me live this 
        long?  Some were still alive, still whole, but not enough of them.  Not 
        nearly enough.  On over a dozen worlds I'd left behind friends and 
        pieces of friends until it was my turn to stand up and give the toast, 
        because there wasn't anybody else here who'd lasted this long.  If you 
        live long enough, I remember someone saying, you lose everything.
             I started again.  'Brothers and sisters--to absent friends.'"


Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
      Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
      Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:41:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Larry Hadley wrote:

>   If after reading this, you still don't get the point, then I challenge
> you to write a Virus that can infect *both* my '486 PC, running OS/2 and a
> 68x0x0 Mac, running Sys/7 - with*out* any differences in the Virus
> between the two. Further, the process must be *invisible*, must not give
> any clues to it's existence prior to infection, and is unremovable without
> destroying the computer. (Another dumb stipulation by GDW)

I recall one of my Caltech friends relating that a virus had been
discovered that had infected a variety of different platforms (Mac, DOS,
OS/2, etc.) using the macro functions already inherent in some programs.
Granted this limits the program to a specific brand of coding (I believe
in this case it was some Microsoft product), but it was not limited by the
platform upon which those were operating.  So in a sense, this can bridge
the gap, as it would be unfeasable to have a huge number of coding systems
just to foil a virus...the line between the necessity for system
protection and the necessity for compatiblity between systems would be a
fine one.

Btw, the content of the virus was "This should be enough to prove my
point."

If anyone is interested in more specifics, drop me a line, and I
will dig up what I can find.

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:50:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Death during Character Generation

=> But it
=> would seem to me that the easiest way to go about thing would be to
=> pre-determine the number of terms one's character will serve.  Course that
=> would eliminate traveller as a system where it can actually be FUN to play
=> geezers.  nyuk.

8-)

Tell me about it.  I've got the Springfield Retirement Home running around in my
campaign.  "Blasted kids...."


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:50:57 GMT
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:10:09 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

=>   If after reading this, you still don't get the point, then I challenge
=> you to write a Virus that can infect *both* my '486 PC, running OS/2 and a
=> 68x0x0 Mac, running Sys/7 - with*out* any differences in the Virus
=> between the two. Further, the process must be *invisible*, must not give
=> any clues to it's existence prior to infection, and is unremovable without
=> destroying the computer. (Another dumb stipulation by GDW)

This is kind of an unfair challenge, since Lucan had TL15 technology and
knowledge at his disposal.  8-)

This arguement can be used to explain almost everything in the Traveller
universe.  It is only when this information falls within someone's area of
expertise when things start to fall apart.  I myself cringe every time my
players attempt to build and/or replair anything technical (without the *proper*
tools or even a dedicated specialty machine shop)!  How about this... "Virus
*evolved* to do the damage it did, and threaten those it hadn't."

At first, Virus infiltrated and destroyed the computer systems at the Imperial
core.  It did this relatively easily since it was, in fact, created inside a
computer on a research station belonging to Lucan's faction.  After many
mutating generations, Virus is said to have gained sentience.  At this point,
Virus could use information in surviving Imperial computers (that discussed how
the computers of its neighbours functioned) to modify itself to infiltrate and
take over those systems.  Virus might have even built prototypes of these
computers for testing.

Perhaps some of these vessels surrendered to the Vargr, Aslan, Hivers, K'kree,
etc. allowing them to download Virus and begin the spread throughout each race's
region of space.  Multiple attempts might have had to have been made, but by
simply surrendering (instead of trying to force-feed Virus into the enemy's
computers), these attempts might have gone more-or-less unnoticed.  All it would
take is one or two greedy corsairs (who would be more than happy to lay claim to
a drifting derelict).



------------------------------

From: Jamie Young <jamie@tsc.scotnet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:50:18 +0100
Subject: How's your Imperium? (Big, Looong)

I like the ideas expressed in the original post (basing the Imperium on the
Roman Empire), and they chime with an idea I was having over the weekend.  
I wanted a model that gave an empire of manageable size (a subsector, say)
that could be incorporated into the canon background (because I like the
official background history). I also wanted a model that would allow a
powerful nobility to adopt its historical role - protection racketeers who
can make the law to suit themselves. I felt that by adopting a model from
history I would be able to "predict" how the empire would work without
having to do too much development work on the background.  Finally, I wanted
the core inhabited area to be surrounded by interstellar wilderness to allow
for "Space, the Final Frontier..." type adventures.

Here's the bacground I was thinking about...

//START
At the onset of the Long Night (or perhaps sometime after the Virus) the
population of a former subsector capital takes advantage of the
political/economic chaos to replace Imperial rule with a popularly elected
(liberal or social) democracy, stripping the local military/aristocratic
elite of much of their power and prestige.  

As the Long Night progresses, anti-democratic forces in the military and
economic spheres are able to insinuate (through their control of the popular
media) that the real cause of economic decline is decadent democracy and
that what the planet needs is a Strong Leader, not endless parliamentary
babbling.  "It was'nt like this in the Good Old Days", they muse.  This
point of view receives a sympathetic hearing amoungst those most sorely hit
by economic decline.  Terrorist activity, covertly financed by
anti-democratic forces, becomes a constant threat while the popular media
rail against the government's inability to protect the citizens.

As the economic crisis deepens, war with neaby systems becomes inevitable.
After concluding a war sucessfully the victorious admiral is supported in
his election campaign by the popular media.  On his election he declares a
state of emergency, appoints a Commitee for Public Safety and suspends
parliament until the end of the crisis.  Any source of alternative power,
including ambitious elements of the former Imperial nobilty, are quietly
liquidated over the next few years.

Of course, the crisis does'nt end. Modestly accepting the title of First
Citizen, the former admiral humbly dedicates himself to fighting to preserve
the planet's freedom and restoring its former glory.  The insignia of the
old Imperium (or perhaps the Terran Confederation) start to be incorporated
into government symbols.

After twenty years of more or less continuous war First Citizen succeeds in
"pacifying" his neighbours and in bringing if not prosperity, then at least
economic stability.  He then dies.

A crisis of sucession looms.  One candidate, a sucessful admiral from an old
noble family, is able to marry First Citizen's daughter (she does'nt get a
say in the matter) and then bribes surviving noble families (who were always
somewhat ambivalent about First Citizen) into backing his claim.  With the
support of the Navy he seizes power.  Shortly afterwards he is "offered" the
title of Emperor by his noble allies, on the grounds that they are the only
known survivors of the Imperial Senate (Moot, whatever it was during the
Second Empire)and that they are simply exercising their right to elevate a
new Emperor.
In return, the Emperor restores a number of rights and privileges to the
nobility and places them in administrative roles on "pacified" worlds.
//END

Thanks.

Jamie


------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:38:37 +1000
Subject: Re: Imperial Heraldry

On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > 
> > This is good history question.  We know that by 1116, the Imperial
> > government consists of the Emperor, the Moot, and the Bureaucracy.  The
> > Emperor is the emporer -- apparently a benevolent autocrat.  The Moot
> > consists of all of the Imperial nobility.  The Bureaucracy is not a
> > constitutionally recognized branch of the government, but has enormous power
> > and actually runs the Imperium, implementing Imperial edicts and
> > promulgating regulations as needed to do so.
> > 
> > So, was there ever an Imperial Senate?  What happened to it?
> 
> The Moot may well *be* the Senate. Remember, the Roman Senate bore a
> lot better resemblance to the Moot than to the US Senate!
> 

I did goof a bit here, I should have said the Moot. But thinking about 
this, I believe that my goof is correct to a point. 

The Sylean government morphed into the Third impirium with a lot of its 
own institutions changing seamlessly into Impirial ones. The idea of a 
body of nobles appearing in Year 0  to take over the control of the 
Senate/Moot is a bit silly. The Senate would proberbly change into the 
Moot when a large body of nobles occur (or all the Senate get instant 
nobility).


>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #155
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 25 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 156

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Starships Book
         2. Solomani in TNE
         3. Re: Regency vs. RC
         4. Re: Killing the Imperium
         5. Re: YugoBoxes vs. Pirates
         6. Re: Death during Character Generation
         7. Re: Regency vs. RC
         8. Prices, trademarks,  call signs,etc.
         9. Re: Regency vs. RC
        10. Re: A challenge
        11. Re: Virus by Email
        12. Re: Profitiable Starships
        13. Re: Profitiable Starships
        14. Re: Death during Character Generation
        15. Re: A challenge
        16. Re: Profitiable Starships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:03:06 -0600
Subject: Starships Book

        From Don Perrin:
>Could you please post a message in gdw-beta, xboat and traveller mailing
>lists saying that the book's been handed in now. Anyone still doing ship
>designs can send them to ImperiumGames@wisenet.net. There's no guarantee
>that they'll use them, but they might! The deadline was last Friday for
>handing in ship designs, so they don't have any excuses. Thanks.

        It's handed in to Imperium Games. Finished. Done. The starship
design sequence is available at

        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/Final.doc.

        There you have it. Unfortunately, I've dropped out of the xboat list
(300 messages at once from TML and GDW Beta is enough, thanks very much),
and the list no longer accepts posts from people not subscribed. Could
somebody post this over there?
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: matth <matth@ritz.mordor.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 08:58:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Solomani in TNE

Hi: 

What is the status of the Solomani in TNE? 

Matthew


------------------------------

From: "V.A.G." <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 14:59:12 MET
Subject: Re: Regency vs. RC

>I just read a message taking some quotes from TNE, excellent picks
>Derek!  I personally have enjoyed the Regency setting more than the
>RC, whom I didn't really like, (though I can't say why really, I
>don't know).  However, I would have liked to have seen what happens
>in the future, when these two adversaries meet (as the quotes alude
>to).

I think this is one of the better results of GDW's demise: By 
closing up, they have left the rest of the background unexplored, free
for the referee to develop it's own material from the small tidbits
and clues they left behind, without the imminent fear of being
invalidated a couple of months later! I feel that this has always been
the one worst problem with a background being detailed more and more
or worse, the history of the campaign moving along and changing things
differently than they happened in the game..... This is what i REALLY
liked about CT: It was static, all adventures could be played, no
matter what the Characters did (Vmpire Fleets, for example can be
ruined by charakters doing the wrong thing, like destroying Sandman,
because they don't trust them, thereby rewriting the entire RC History
(as viiewed from the future).

I hope ImperiumGames adoptes the older approach as well, that while
detailing a Milieu as far as nessessary to the point that afer 3-4
Sourcebooks, they move on to the next milieu that would be far enough
away in time and space as to not invatilidating the old campaigns that
may have developed.

I am really looking forward to the old and new Traveller,
keep the flame,
V.A.G.
- ------ 
- -"Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!!"

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:08:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Killing the Imperium

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Sure, that's exactly what they were up to.  I'd have much preferred an
> extended civil war and general economic collapse.  I thought that's
> where MT was going.  We did have the "Long Night" as a model after
> all.

Originally I thought this was where it was going to.  But I've been 
reading the Challange "Traveller News Service issues back in the 40's and 
50's and things are already starting to get way beyond any kind of easy 
reconsiliation.  Those issues cover from about 1120-1123.

> It did that!  Unfortunately, I think it went too far.

I thought so to but it was really the only way to bring back any kind of 
harmony to the imperium.  Wipe the slate clean and begin again, if any 
one side had won it would have justified all those deaths.
 
> What I'd have liked to have seen were several small multi-system
> states competing for the opportunity to rebuild the Imperium to its
> former glory.  I think that's where things would have ended up, sans
> Virus.  I *think* Milieu 0 is going to put us there, and give me the
> environment what I want to play in. <g>

GDW did publish several Pocket Empires.  Unfortunately these areas were 
often to widely dispuresed in order to see any real competition 
immediatly.  But after time that would have to change.  As the empires 
got bigger they'd have to run into each other and begin either unifying 
or competing.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:13:38 -0700
Subject: Re: YugoBoxes vs. Pirates

Franklin W. Cain wrote:
> 
>Ever heard of *convoys*?  Why do you think the Gazelle-class is called a
>Close *Escort*?  In the core sectors, you'd get a *lot* of traffic that

Don't forget the Fiery, an equally capable piece of gear.  Unarmed 
merchant ships would not be unprotected.  They shipped a lot of cargo 
across the atlantic in "unarmed" cargo ships.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:18:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Death during Character Generation

Charles Pratt wrote:

>I know nothing other than the TNE system (minor MT experience).  But it
>would seem to me that the easiest way to go about thing would be to
>pre-determine the number of terms one's character will serve.Course that
>would eliminate traveller as a system where it can actually be FUN to 
>play geezers.  nyuk.

I can remember watching other players in CT generate 75 year old Grand 
Admirals with fifteen Starbursts of Extreme Heroism.  I alway wondered if 
the Emperor gave out SEH's for blowing your nose correctly after that.  
8)

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:32:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Regency vs. RC

Charles Pratt wrote:

>Well, knee-jerk would be that the Regency would steam roll the RC.  But
>then one must consider what the assimilation of a culture as tenacious 
>as the RC would do to the Imperium.  Is there enough memory of the 
>Imperium in the RC that they would re-integrate with the latest 
>extention of the Imperium (I have limited RC knowledge)?  And then, of 
>course, there's the Hivers...

This is kind of difficult to theorize upon.  I know from having read most 
of the NE source books and such that there's a real negative impression 
of anything Imperial in the RC.  In fact refering to someone as 
"Imperial" is about as big an insult as there is.  

	"In Coalition usage, it has also come to mean demostrating 
	arrogant or shortsighted views, particularly when combined with 
	conspicuous and undeserved wealth."
					(Path of Tears: 28)

Perhaps though, given the amount of social changes that have occured in 
the Regency over the last 70 years.  "What do you mean the title Baron 
doesn't mean anything anymore?"  It is possible that there could be some 
kind of reconsiliation.  The key phrase to remember when thinking about 
the Coalition is "continuous and unstopable social revolution."  The 
people of the Coalition would likely never accept an Emperor as anything 
more than a figure-head and I think most liberal Pocket Empires are the 
same.

As an example of social change.

***SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT***





In 1202, NE2, the world of Nike Nimbus is beaten upon sevearly by a Midu 
Agasham Vampire.  By 1203, NE3, the Coalition is infecting its own 
computers with a new strain of Virus in order to increase it's own 
effectiveness.  This is a source of extreme tension with the Regency as 
perhaps the Virus has a further social impact on the people of the RC.  
Many military individuals would probably have radically different views 
of the virus after this.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:52:35 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Prices, trademarks,  call signs,etc.

1. Trade Prices

Even in AD&D, you only rarely get to buy your equipment at the price
listed in the book.  If you have an imaginative enough DM, you even get to
roleplay the purchase of gear, even down to the haggling. 

PC: "I bought my last shipment of iron for Cr2000 per ton!" 

Trader: "Yes, but this planet [size 3] doesn't have many metals, and I've
got a wife and three kids to buy vacc suits for! I'm cutting me own throat
to let you have the gear so cheaply!" 

Try looking at it this way: 
	Book 2 rules: quick-and-dirty for an off the cuff trading nugget
	Book 7/MT rules: average values useable to work out how megacorps
get their money, as they are easily worked into a generic trade system
order to average out large numbers of trade negotiations.
	Home grown: fully detailed trade rules (eg. Rob Miracle's, or
mine). 

What I did was to combine all the trade systems, plus the trade article
from Challenge #27 (? correct number?), in order to greatly expand the
availavble cargo list. Andrew Madden promised to create a database to load
it into (it's only on paper at present), but is snowed under at present
(aren't we all?). 

Note that the Challenge article allowed me to use generic top-level tables
for Industrial, Agricultural, Resource (all those non-industrial worlds),
Ice-capped, Water, and Vacc Worlds. There is even a General Cargo table
(thus addressing Charles' request). From the high-level tables, i work
down thru more detailed tables to get the cargo result.  Some things *are*
shipped in std cargo containers (I might even ship off an article about
these to MM!?), other things are individually boxed, and some small
high-value items are in smaller boxes. Remember, these are _trade goods
from the PC's standpoint_. All the bulk big stuff is shipped by people
like Al Morai on 4000t bulk traders, or even bigger ships run by the
megacorps. See Andrew Madden's breakdown on potential trade in the Marches
- - the amount of stuff shipped is HUGE!! The PC's (equivalent of tramp
freighters, unless they own a shipping line) only trade in the "dregs", if
you like - but even these miniscule amounts of cargo (sniffed at by
megacorps) can be very valuable *for them*. 

I *did* put in task rules to find, buy, and sell cargo (as noted by Rob
Miracle), but I noticed that Rob alluded to a few wrinkles I didn't think
of, such as rolls for damaged goods, allowances for cargo perishability,
etc. 

John Macpherson said:
> I think the scenario you have scetched above is _exactly_ why the 
>Imperium has chosen to standardize freight rates across the Empire.

A reasonable argument. The Imperium, as many have pointed out, protects
the "free trade between the stars". 

However, he also said:
> Secondly, I was under the impression that
>interstellar wars were strictly forbidden by the Empire, nukes or not.

Only if they interrupt trade in a big way (see Book4). 

Wes Payne said:  >I could have picked >a more radical difference, such as
the cost-per-ton of precious gemstones >as opposed to simple mineral ore. 

I just changed the amount available - as in Bk2 where you could pick up
2D*300t (?or so) of wood, but only 1D tons of gems, 1D ATV's etc. 

2. CALL SIGNS

>organizations today that use call signs.  Besides its more fun to call
>someone Grumble than Dr. Habius.  8)

Oh, I don't know, Dr Habius Corpus sounds fine by me. ;-)

Currently, we have the following nick-names in use: 

	Name 			Race 	Nickname
	Eoraokortitrikhuie 	Aslan 	"Huey" 
	Ervmisbe 		Droyne 	"Irving" 
	Rialtelsupremo 		Droyne 	"El Supremo" 

It just depends on your POV, I guess... 

3. TRADEMARKS

> The reason that you are more likely to get sued is that unlike >
copyright, you can *lose* a trademark by not defending it against >
mis-use. 

Yes, a legal anomaly that leaves a lot to be desired. Someone steals your
car or wallet, the police can chase them. Someone steals your traemark,
and *you* must chase them. 

...probably invented by smart lawyers to keep them rich (only a *joke*,
Glenn ;-). 

4. CALLING CASEY JONES

Paul asked:  > Cynthis is right, ships and subs make for a better
>example, the only problem with subs is when have you seen a civillian
>submarine? ;)

There are a few - generally specialised, high-tech miniature submersibles.
The problem is that they are high-tech, hideously expansive, require
constant maintenance... this analogy just gets better and better. 

>I think any jump capeable ship will have at least (minimal) a >crew of
three: Pilot, Astrogator(navigator), and Engineer. 

Exceptions are ships that are regularly serviced (such as xboats or
in-service scouts) or ruggedised (again, scouts). Maybe the dreaded TNE
"Wear Value" can actually be used for something, after all. 

5. CLOSE

And finally, thanks to David E. Brooks for some well-timed humour. 


- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity".


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:59:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Regency vs. RC

Tom Miller wrote:

>Also, the Regency kept it's advanced technology, unlike the RC.  While 
>they have been able to rebuild, they can't be at the same level (I ONLY 
>have the main TNE books, so correct me if wrong).

No.  The RC as of 1201 has one TL12 world and the rest are in the TL10-8 
range with the exception of Spires which is at TL2 

>I was wondering what the RC's reaction to the Regency even existing 
>would be, I mean culturally.  If you think about it, the Regency 
>embodies some of the things the RC hates, like nobility (albeit in a 
>limited form), and of course, the spelling of 'humaniti' :)

This is absolutly true.  Although but the time 1201 rolls around the 
words nobility in the Regency don't mean a damn thing and they'll mean 
even less in the future.  Given this plus the Virus thing and I think 
there's a real possiblitiy for conflict here.  At least their starships 
are fairly evenly sized.  The Regency also arms its Marine and Army APC's 
with low yeild Tac-Nukes, something that the RC would never consider 
doing, given the number of glowing planets still out there in the wilds.
 
>And, as the quotes Derek used show, the Regency, at least, in the future
>believes that the Star Viking methods were harsh, but perhaps necessary, 
>so maybe they lost to them.  Who knows?

I have however, come across a number of other quotes that makes me wonder 
otherwise.  Damned if I can find them though.  Ah yes here it is.

	"Both groups used surprise and terror to minimize their 
	casualties, as the small groups were always outnumbered by the
	lower tech defenders.  Finally, both groups eventually settled
	and colonized on the world they had been raiding, where they 
	intermarried with the locals and intergrated the dominant 
	portions of their own culture with the local culture."

				Dr, Eneri Kuniholm
				Mora, Deneb, 1235
				(Survival Margin, p88)
				(TNE, p86)

and there's something in one of the source books (PoT?) about a more 
unlikely group practically destined to fail but the Hivers chose them and 
how now we can only look back and marvel at how well they did succeed.

WHo know's whether the Star Viking's methods were harsh, personally I 
think not and given the same circumstances I think we'd all behave in a 
similer fashion.  Perhaps the Regency is simply judging them harshly 
because other than the "Rape of Trin" they have no real common reference 
frame as to what these people went through in the collapse.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (John Kovalic)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 09:30:32 -0500
Subject: Re: A challenge

>On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Larry Hadley wrote:
>
>>   If after reading this, you still don't get the point, then I challenge
>> you to write a Virus that can infect *both* my '486 PC, running OS/2 and a
>> 68x0x0 Mac, running Sys/7 - with*out* any differences in the Virus
>> between the two. Further, the process must be *invisible*, must not give
>> any clues to it's existence prior to infection, and is unremovable without
>> destroying the computer. (Another dumb stipulation by GDW)

And after you do THIS, I challenge you to create a ship that can jump
through hyperspace. Then terraform a world. Then show me a large, talking
feline alien species. HAH! See! I *told* you GDW created an unrealistic
game!  :-)

John Kovalic



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                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:29:18 -0800
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

On 24 Jun 96 at 10:41, William F. Hostman spewed:

> Agreed, tho, the virus is silly due to the fact it can hit *ANY* computer
> system. Unless you assume the imperium has required a stadardized (or
> hardware translated) machine code schema.

OK...first of all.  Any science fiction requires suspension of 
disbelief.  In real life present terms, everything proposed by ANY 
version of Traveller is impossible in present day physics (No FTL 
travel, and current laws of physics deem it impossible, No cold 
fusion, No thruster plates, no HEPlaR, no meson guns)

So let's leave out present day comparisons.  Let's assume that 
computers are a whole lot more advanced than they currently are.  
Hardware and software both can do things that we can't envision 
today.  Hardware uses parallel circuitry to more accurately simulate 
living thought processes, and is semi-self aware BEFORE Virus hits.  
Now imagine the type of software that could run on such machinery.  

The nature of life is that life figures out a way to adapt.  If the 
hardware is almost alive, the software is going to be like that as 
well.  Now imagine a parasite (the chips) taking control of such a 
semi-self aware system.  Being intelligent, the parasite will be 
slowed, but not stopped by other countermeasures.  Hell, being 
intelligent, it'll be able to take advantage of the control and 
monitoring systems to convince the computer operator that he's fixed 
the problem.  Hell, viruses work this way now within 1 OS to a 
certain extent, and if you're to believe the SF of Traveller, we're 
using stone axes compared to what'll be possible at TL 15.  What's to 
say that such a virus might not be developed to more closely resemble 
the real thing...

No, under current technology, its as unbelievable as FTL travel.  But 
when has SF been real worried about following the laws of physics (or 
computer science in this case)...  All SF is only hard to a certain extent, 
because frankly, science is only hard to a certain point.  It's not like we've 
learned everything we're ever going to learn, and some of what we're 
going to learn is going to throw yesterday's pet theories in the 
trash heap...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:29:18 -0800
Subject: Re: Profitiable Starships

On 24 Jun 96 at 14:47, Joe Walsh spewed:

> 
> My Imperium has historically been a wee bit more dangerous, and I don't 
> doubt Milieux 0 will be even more so...but, like I said, why not? :)  
> It's a new idea, and that's nice to see.

OK...It is a new idea.  I'll grant you that, and I was a bit harsh.

In my Imperium though, Pirates are fighting each other for the chance 
to take this 1 though.

Stu 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:48:36 -0800
Subject: Re: Profitiable Starships

On 24 Jun 96 at 18:45, Charles Pratt spewed:

> > > Oh, you mean the YugoBox class of derelicts.  Sorry, but there is no
> > > such thing as space protected that well in the Imperium.  Piracy was
> > > and would be a continuous problem everywhere within the Imperium,
> > > even at the core.  Or did you think the Imperium stationed all those
> > > SDB's & Gazelle Close Escorts in Core sector for military parades?
> > > As a pirate, I'd be licking my chops to puncture the hull into a few
> > > of these ships.  Be easier than stealing candy from a baby...
> 
> To a certain extent, yes...BUT (don't you hate that word?)...  Chances are
> cargo carried in a yugowhateveritscalled would not be worth stealing
> (that's the whole point of the ship, if I understand correctly).  Why
> would the pirates knock of a garbage scow?  Chances are, it wouldn't even
> be worth it to capture it and strip parts.  Also, in the spinward main, it
> would work great for the short hops from well guarded system to well
> guarded system.   Good enough system defence, and you don't need to worry

I challenge you to find 2 adequately defended systems in the Marches 
to jump from 1 to another on the Spinward Main.  If you look at Fifth 
Frontier War (the only canonical listing of system defenses), there 
aren't too many within Jump 1 of each other.

Stu


> about pirates within _at least_ 100 diameters from the planet, and that's
> all you need.
> 
> -----
> 
> 	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
>          Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
> 			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."
> 
> 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:00:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Death during Character Generation

I have found over 17+ years of Traveller that the average age in my
campaigns is somewhere in the 30's.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: matth <matth@ritz.mordor.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:06:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: A challenge

Hi: 

> 
> 
> >On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Larry Hadley wrote:
> >
> >>   If after reading this, you still don't get the point, then I challenge
> >> you to write a Virus that can infect *both* my '486 PC, running OS/2 and a
> >> 68x0x0 Mac, running Sys/7 - with*out* any differences in the Virus
> >> between the two. Further, the process must be *invisible*, must not give
> >> any clues to it's existence prior to infection, and is unremovable without
> >> destroying the computer. (Another dumb stipulation by GDW)
> 

I would like to note I have 
never seen  too much detail when it came to computing systems in Traveller. 
Even back in the days of CT even though there were no Paralel are other strange
computer  architectures, they were discussed in Science Fiction and in the 
field of computer science so CT could have imagined rules for these kind 
of things. 

I think the argument about different architectures is really kind of 
nit-picky when it comes to the Virus. I think a better argument against 
the Virus is that it was a cheap way of destroying the Imperium which 
released GDW from writing a length history of how things were finally 
destroyed. 

I think it also goes against things that I recognized as Traveller-esque, 
such as an enemy that has racial motivations, etc. If they were going to 
destroy the Imperium with an alien, I think they would have been better off
doing something like bringing an Alien from another Galaxy or through a Jump 
Portal or something. 


Matthew


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:16:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Profitiable Starships

Anyone play the old Megatraveller computer game?  I made lots of money
taking unprotected starships at one point.  Sure, if Imperials were around
or armed defense boats, you'd get blasted, but a system is a *big* place.

As for system defenses, sure, but a lone tramp pirate isnt going to look
like much of a threat.  System defenses are meant to defend against
military attacks, not to babysit tiny unarmed freighters.

Ships such as the Yugos exist in my campaign, but are always part of cargo
convoys and always escorted.  You just dont find lone traders using them.
That's why Free Traders and Far Traders are weapons capable.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #156
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 25 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 157

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Profitiable Starships
         2. Re: Virus by Email
         3. Re: Virus by Email
         4. Re: TNE Quotes (Virus and My Favorite)(longish)
         5. Re: Solomani in TNE
         6. Re: Regency vs. RC
         7. Re: Profitiable Starships
         8. Re: Prices, trademarks,  call signs,etc.
         9. Re: Virus by Email
        10. Re: Death during Character Generation
        11. Profitiable Starships take deux
        12. Re: Virus by Email
        13. Re: Pirates of the Imperium
        14. Re: Profitiable Starships
        15. Re: Virus by Email
        16. Re: Death during Character Generation
        17. Sylean Senate / Imperial Moot
        18. Re: Virus by Email

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:17:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Profitiable Starships

Shipping cargo in traveller is kinda like driving a truck, you can make a
living but you can't really get rich.

That's what speculation is for, with a good ref and players of course.
Millions can be made in speculative trading.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 08:24:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

Larry Hadley wrote:

>  It's impossible to "design" a Virus that can infect *all* computers,
>even if you assume that the computers not complex enough to support 
>virus aren't included in the definition.

Okay now I understand what you're talking about.  This is what i thought 
you ment but wasn't 100% sure.
 
>  Architectures won't just change from race to race, they'll change from
>tech-level to tech-level as new technologies come on line and make
>different techniques possible. Varying architectures _insure_ that Virus
>cannot run it's code on *all* machines.

The thing with Virus that you have to remember is it's not only very 
sophisticated but it's also alive.  Imagine if you will that you:
1)have a 100% photographic memory, and
2)have 100% motor control.
Now add into the mix that you know how to drive a Yugo.  Assume that you 
spent 24 hours (you don't need to sleep either) watching a driver, drive 
a bus.  Think you could drive that bus?  Probably, the idea is the same 
between the car and the bus.  Now imagine you've spent 24 hours inside 
and M1 tank watching the crew, think you could drive the tank.  Again 
probably you've learned the basics while sitting there, sure you might 
drive through a house but you could drive it.

The analogy is the same for the virus.  It sneaks into the system (it is 
possible to get an IBM virus on a Mac it may not work but the code is 
still in there) and sits there for days watching and learning about 
what's going on in the system.  Once the virus feels comfortable in comes 
out and takes over.
 
>  If after reading this, you still don't get the point, then I challenge
>you to write a Virus that can infect *both* my '486 PC, running OS/2 and 
>a 68x0x0 Mac, running Sys/7 - with*out* any differences in the Virus
>between the two. Further, the process must be *invisible*, must not give
>any clues to it's existence prior to infection, and is unremovable 
>without destroying the computer. (Another dumb stipulation by GDW)

Not so, the Virus resides in specific chips, of it's decisions of course, 
from these chips it "reaches out" and subverts the system.  Destroy those 
chips and you've destroyed the computer, it's finding those chips that's 
the hard part.

Not even going to try on the Virus thing.  Don't know enough about code 
and never ever really felt inclined to learn.  Odd isn't it?  I spend 4-8 
hours a day on this and I've never been concerned with how to build the 
programs.
 
>   Sensors send/read DATA, period. No executable machine code is loaded
>into the computer via sensors, if it were I wouldn't even bother 
>building Warships I'd just use computer overrides to take control of 
>enemy ships.

In theory you could do this, the overrides that is.  Passive sensors pick 
up everything in the area.  These signals are then passed through a 
"computer" which interprets the signals and sends the data to you.  
Active sensors do the same thing.  When the ship is largely automated 
these signals would be routed though several computers, all monitered by 
the main computer.  Sensors are the perfect method of infection, they're 
processing so much information virus could easily slip past the 
anti-virus programs of the 3rd Imperium.  Remember when a new virus comes 
out now it takes weeks for a cure to appear on the net.  By that time 
with Virus it's to late.

Derek Stanley

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 08:28:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

Larry Hadley wrote:
 
>   To try to make this more clear, let's compare US and Russian computer
>design. The American computers and Russian computers have *totally*
>different form factors, and even less compatible architectural
>differences. This is from two different societies on Earth at 
>more-or-less the same tech-level (Traveller scale). Can you imagine the 
>difficulties you would have trying to mate hardware designed by two 
>different races at two different tech-levels? Different form-factors, 
>different *assumptions*, different *engineering* - hell they may not 
>have the same views on LOGIC. Yet these differung systems are all 
>vulnerable to the *same* Virus? Get real...
> Remember all computers, reguardless of who designed them have one thing 
in common.  Binary.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 08:31:21 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE Quotes (Virus and My Favorite)(longish)

Paul Walker wrote:

[snip]
>       live long enough, I remember someone saying, you lose everything.
>       I started again.  'Brothers and sisters--to absent friends.'"

I love this quote.  My GM gave it to me to read after a mission, which 
still isn't over by the way, where we'd lost over half the party due to 
varying circumstances.  It's a pretty powerful statement when read under 
those contexts.  Something I'm sure everyone can relate to in game terms.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 08:35:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Solomani in TNE

matth wrote:
> 
> Hi:
> 
> What is the status of the Solomani in TNE?

No one really know's.  The RC, is busy focusing its drive Coreward from 
the Old Expances.

I would imagine that the Solomani fell before Virus too.  Seeing as they 
problably designed or used compatable computers with the Imperium.  Terra 
would be able to rebuild quickly as there'd be hard copy data on the 
development of all those technological goodies.  Worlds on the Solomani 
frontiers probably had no idea what hit them.

We can postulate, with nearly 100% certianty, that there is a pocket 
empire based out of the sol system.  It only stands to reason.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 08:39:57 -0700
Subject: Re: Regency vs. RC

V.A.G. wrote:
> I feel that this has always been
> the one worst problem with a background being detailed more and more
> or worse, the history of the campaign moving along and changing things
> differently than they happened in the game..... This is what i REALLY
> liked about CT: It was static, all adventures could be played, no
> matter what the Characters did (Vampire Fleets, for example can be
> ruined by charakters doing the wrong thing, like destroying Sandman,
> because they don't trust them, thereby rewriting the entire RC History
> (as viewed from the future).

This I felt was one of TNE's greatest strengths.  The RC was small enough 
that the indvidual heroics of a dedicated few could make a difference.  
Where as in CT, the Imperium was so huge and had so much momentum the 
efforts of an individual were swallowed up and rarely made a difference.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:17:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Profitiable Starships

Shipping cargo in traveller is kinda like driving a truck, you can make a
living but you can't really get rich.

That's what speculation is for, with a good ref and players of course.
Millions can be made in speculative trading.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 08:43:00 -0700
Subject: Re: Prices, trademarks,  call signs,etc.

David Jaques-Watson wrote:
 
> 2. CALL SIGNS
> 
> >organizations today that use call signs.  Besides its more fun to call
> >someone Grumble than Dr. Habius.  8)
> 
> Oh, I don't know, Dr Habius Corpus sounds fine by me. ;-)

Actually that's exactly where Grumble got the name.  He then modified the 
pronuciation and it became an in joke with our group.  When I 
accidentally killed him it finally became true.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:03:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:

> Remember all computers, reguardless of who designed them have one thing 
> in common.  Binary.

Two thoughts:

1)  Computers do not /have/ to be binary.  In the Far Future, trinary 
computers (or some other type) may be used in addition to binary computers.

2)  Even if all computers are based on a binary system, the archetecture 
still has to be similar for a program to run.  Example:  take any 
Wintel-compatible program.  It is in a binary, executable format.  Put this 
program on some other archetecture.  It will not run without an 
interpreter/emulator.  The specific instructions the binary values cause 
to occur vary depending on the microprocessor(s) used, among other 
things.  

Or were you thinking along different lines when you made the comment above?


- -Joe 
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:06:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Death during Character Generation

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:

> I have found over 17+ years of Traveller that the average age in my
> campaigns is somewhere in the 30's.

Similarly, four terms was the average for my campaigns...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 09:32:29 MST7
Subject: Profitiable Starships take deux

Well, here are the fixes to the YugoBox designs, following QSDS1.2. 
Not much changed, except the cost of the ship went up some 20% due to 
needing more powerplant.

YugoBox class Simple Trader (QDS modular construction)

Jump 1 version
Tons	200			Volume 2800		Cost 32.9 (incl QDS discount)
Crew	4			Passengers H/M/L 	0/0/0
Cargo	152	Controls Std.		TL 12
Size	8		Jump	1				
			G-rate	1
			Power	0.8
			Fuel 	20 SR
			Sensors 1A 3P 0J
Armor	0		Structure	6 (Box Streamlined)

Jump 2 version
Tons	200	Volume 2800		Cost 33.4 (incl QDS discount)
Crew	4	Passengers H/M/L 	0/0/0
Cargo	150	Controls Std.		TL 12
Size	8		Jump	2				
			G-rate	1
			Power	0.8
			Fuel 	40 SR
			Sensors 1A 3P 0J
Armor	0		Structure	6 (Box Streamlined)

Using the full crew rating, and Book 2 figures for costs, assuming a full 
cargo hold, the jump 1 version is profitable after 11 trips/year, the 
jump 2 after 14.

(A trip is calculated as 1 week in jump/1 week out.) That puts a maximum 
of 23 trips/year, since 2 weeks/year are given over to maintenence. This 
also assumes buying unrefined fuel at 100 cr/ton. If you're cheap and 
scoop your own fuel, that adds 2kCr for the J1 and 4 kCr to the J2 
version per trip of profit.

				Profit (loss) /trip	(kCr)			
				J1			J2
Trips/Year	5	(239.18)	5	(246.28)
			10	(48.59)	10	(53.14)
			15	14.94 	15	11.24
			20	46.71 	20	43.43
			23	59.13 	23	56.03

Multiply this figure times the number of trips to calculate the total 
profit/loss on an annual basis.

The change in ship cost increases the number of trips/year for 
profitability to 14.

Of course, this design doesen't allow for much in the way of surviving a 
fight (or running away), it's the spacelanes equivalent of a tramp 
frieghter or Liberty Ship...cheap holes in space.

Now I have to stic my 0.02Cr in.  If piracy is so rampant that any 
ship has to go out armed to the teeth to survive, there is no 
Imperium.  The citizens and member worlds are paying a significant 
chunk of credits every year in taxes to the Imperium for one reason, 
and one reason only...to ensure the safety of trade. Notice the only 
things the Imperium does vis-a-vis member worlds is enforce trade 
rules inter world and intersystem. If the Imperium isn't going to 
protect them, why should they pay anything? 

The YugoBus will come along later, but I've actually got work to do 
now....

But I'm glad someone got the GoodHumorMan joke...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:35:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:

> The analogy is the same for the virus.  It sneaks into the system (it is 
> possible to get an IBM virus on a Mac it may not work but the code is 
> still in there) and sits there for days watching and learning about 
> what's going on in the system.  Once the virus feels comfortable in comes 
> out and takes over.

Mmmm.  The Virus wouldn't be able to watch and learn while on the system, 
without first knowing how to execute on the system.  I'd imagine the 
Virus would form "children" of some sort and shoot those into the 
system.  These spawned tasks would be programmed to send back messages to 
the Virus describing success/failure, etc.  If no message was received, 
then the Virus would form a different spawned task and do it again.  As 
you said, the Virus has perfect memory, etc. and has tons of time.  
Eventually, it would be possible for the Virus to find out how to execute 
on another archetecture in this way, translate itself, and then move in.

At least, that's my take on how it would be possible for a self-aware 
program to spread throughout all computers.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:39:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Pirates of the Imperium

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> OK...It is a new idea.  I'll grant you that, and I was a bit harsh.
> 
> In my Imperium though, Pirates are fighting each other for the chance 
> to take this 1 though.

To be totally honest with you, my Imperium's Pirates are much like those 
detailed in the space-operatic "Bio of a Space Tyrant" series by Piers 
Anthony.  There, I said it and I'm glad. :)

For those unfamiliar with that series, the pirates are rather ruthless, 
ubiquitous, organized, and politically well-connected.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:41:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Profitiable Starships

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> I challenge you to find 2 adequately defended systems in the Marches 
> to jump from 1 to another on the Spinward Main.  If you look at Fifth 
> Frontier War (the only canonical listing of system defenses), there 
> aren't too many within Jump 1 of each other.

Absolutely.  It'd be stretching things too much (IMO) to expect a 
frontier area like the Spinward Marches to be /that/ secure.  

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 09:48:31 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

Joe Walsh wrote:

> 1)  Computers do not /have/ to be binary.  In the Far Future, trinary
>computers (or some other type) may be used in addition to binary 
>computers.

I'm not sure I understand how a trinary system would work.  In computers 
somethings either off "0" or its on "1" there's no middle of the road 
when it comes to electricity.  Currently that is.
 
> 2) Even if all computers are based on a binary system, the archetecture
>still has to be similar for a program to run.  Example:  take any
>Wintel-compatible program.  It is in a binary, executable format.  Put 
>this program on some other archetecture.  It will not run without an
>interpreter/emulator.  The specific instructions the binary values cause
>to occur vary depending on the microprocessor(s) used, among other
>things.

This is true but the basic building blocks of all that it binary.  Though 
binary Virus could enter any computer.  Binary is merely the door.
 
After getting in we have to remember that Virus is not merely a computer 
program, it is a living, breathing, (okay so technically it doesn't 
breath) entity, that never forgets and lives inside computers.  The 
Virus, being rudamentally (that's not the right word is it?) intelligent, 
finds an out of the way circut and sits there watching the data flow.  
Like a person sitting at a window watching traffic Virus soon figures out 
which bundles of information are going where and presumably by following 
these bundles figures out what they do.  From here Virus modifies it's 
own code to absorb the knowledge contained within the system and there by 
subverts it.

Keeping in mind that this entity was modified in the 57'th (?) century 
I'm sure they'd have copies of all the major computer types and given how 
valuable information is now a days I'm sure they'd have translation 
programs written for every computer type know.  With this kind of 
information at it's "finger tips" I'm sure that given enough time Virus 
could subvert any computer.

The problem Virus has is when it's running into multiple computer types 
in a small area.  Some will computers will be figured out faster and 
individuals with the other computers will possibly have time to shut 
things down before the virus can get a propper foot hold in their system.

Virus is intelligent.  Dulinor's flagship Clarion was infected near Core, 
the Virus figuring out that Dulinor was heading else where sat there 
quitely waiting for the opportunity to infect other computers along that 
retreat route.  If the ship doesn't begin to act up you'd never figure 
out it was infected and just like Typhoid Mary you'd go merrily about 
your buisness accidentally infecting people with something you didn't 
know you had.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 09:49:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Death during Character Generation

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:
> 
> > I have found over 17+ years of Traveller that the average age in my
> > campaigns is somewhere in the 30's.
> 
> Similarly, four terms was the average for my campaigns...
> 
> -Joe

It was pretty average in the games I played too.  You'd just get those 
one or two player's who'd keep going and going.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Vanya <dmoody@bridge.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:54:27 -0500
Subject: Sylean Senate / Imperial Moot

>The Sylean government morphed into the Third impirium with a lot of its 
>own institutions changing seamlessly into Impirial ones. The idea of a 
>body of nobles appearing in Year 0  to take over the control of the 
>Senate/Moot is a bit silly. The Senate would proberbly change into the 
>Moot when a large body of nobles occur (or all the Senate get instant 
>nobility).
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
>Darryl Adams                                       

>dtadams@ar.com.au

But I doubt the senate could meld seamlessly.  Remember, the Moot really 
has only one power - *to dissolve the Imperium.*  The Sylean Senate 
probably had much more power.  Possibly, the senate turned into the heads 
of the Imperial beaurocracy?

- -- 
	-Vanya

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 09:56:41 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

Joe Walsh wrote:

>Mmmm.  The Virus wouldn't be able to watch and learn while on the 
>system, without first knowing how to execute on the system.  I'd imagine 
>the Virus would form "children" of some sort and shoot those into the
>system.  These spawned tasks would be programmed to send back messages 
>to the Virus describing success/failure, etc.  If no message was 
>received, then the Virus would form a different spawned task and do it 
>again.  As you said, the Virus has perfect memory, etc. and has tons of 
>time. Eventually, it would be possible for the Virus to find out how to 
>execute on another archetecture in this way, translate itself, and then 
>move in.

In theory why would it not be able to watch?  Given the millions of tasks 
our computers are executing a second if it sent these "children" off to 
follow the information bundles and report back.  Should it not be able to 
figure out most of the computer passively?  In a minute to us a Virus 
would be able to observe millions of operations.  On a 57th century 
starship it would be able to obseve Trillions of operations (or a billion 
if your english 8)  ).  By sending out and bringing back it's children it 
should be able to figure things out in a matter of days without having to 
do much of anything actively.
 
> At least, that's my take on how it would be possible for a self-aware
> program to spread throughout all computers.

And a great take it is.  Do you think GDW had these descussions before 
they implemented the Virus plan?

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #157
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 25 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 158

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Virus by Email
         2. Re: Virus by Email
         3. Re: Don't look now
         4. Virus and Signal GK
         5. Stellar classes
         6. Megameters in the real world
         7. Kilo Litres
         8. Re: Death during Character Generation
         9. Re: Virus by Email
        10. Re: Solomani in TNE
        11. Re: kilolitres
        12. Re: Various Stuff (Td V96#157)
        13. Re: Rob Prior's Trading System
        14. Re: Islamic Law (was  Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #149)
        15. Deck Plan Dimensions
        16. Re: Prices, trademarks,  call signs,etc.
        17. Re: Virus by Email
        18. Re: Regency vs. RC

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 12:24:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> No, under current technology, its as unbelievable as FTL travel.  But 
> when has SF been real worried about following the laws of physics (or 
> computer science in this case)...  All SF is only hard to a certain extent, 
> because frankly, science is only hard to a certain point.  It's not like we've 
> learned everything we're ever going to learn, and some of what we're 
> going to learn is going to throw yesterday's pet theories in the 
> trash heap...

Well said!

This is true of many of the arguments we have here.  So much of what 
we're dealing with is pure conjecture (or, theory, if you prefer:).  We 
may have pretty mathematical formulae that "prove" this or that, but 
until the theories are proven by actual experience, they're just so much 
hot air.  And hardly worth arguing about.

We (as a species) don't know as much as we think we do. ;-)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: farrarb@vnet.net
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:48:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

I've been reading this thread over and over, and I tend to agree with the 
folx who are saying 'computer have different achitectures, different 
methodologies'  there is no reason to assume that the computers are 
necessarily operated via binary, and anyway those binary instructions are 
encoded differently on different computers.

Not *all* the computers were necessarily even electronic (i seem to 
remember optical computers at one time....)  


But fundamentally when you look over the systems that are affected by 
virus, they all do at least *one* thing that is the same.....

The have communications.

That's *how* it spreads...so i have to ask myself, what does this mean?

It means that there is 1) a standard for communications, or at least a 
set of standards, and 2) that most of the computers designed were using 
communications of some *sort* of other....

In my working life, most every computer that i've used, that had more 
power than a caclulator was connected to something else, usually on a 
network.  Now we've had standalone networks, that never talk to anything 
else, but those computers were few and far between.

I'm willing to bet that it's reasonable to assume, with all the 
computers/robots/etc that are in TNE that most of them are setup for 
communications (how do you control the robots? through a computer?)

definitely all the ships had to have some sort of standard for 
communication...

Now, why, konwing this, it wouldn't be impossible to circumvent, i 
*don't* know.  That's my *other* problemwith the virus.

Now the Virus is an intelligent program, and has the ability to 
think....It is reasonable to assume, that given that it can probably 
probe a target system using the communications, to then try and get some 
hold on how it works...what it's weakspots are, etc.

There are also a finite number of different computer systems, meaning 
that the Virus probably has experience with all or most of these, giving 
it an advantage...at least by the time we start seeing virus ships in TNE.

For a good book to read (and an ancient one b/c it talks about IBM 360's 
and 'teleprocessing ports' *chuckle*) there is The Adolescence of P1, a 
program that is very similar to a benign controller-virus.

bill


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 12:50:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Don't look now

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> Joe Walsh wrote:
> > 
> > <zombie-like chant> "Join us........Join us......Join us...." :)
> 
> Shouldn't that read.  "one of us...one of us...one of us..."  never mind it was 
> a horrible movie.  8)

You know, I typed "one of us..one of us...," then got unsure of myself, 
erased it, and typed the "join us" that I eventually sent.  It figures 
that it'd be wrong, after I put that effort into it. <G>



- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:18:00 -0800
Subject: Virus and Signal GK

>> Hmmm.  I remember a CT adventure based on silicon life forms.  Don't
>> recall which one it was, though.  Signal GK?  Hmmm.  Anyway, there was
>> precedent in the canon for this scenario.
>>
>It was Signal GK, and that life form was engineered into the virus.  And
>it wasn't natural, it had something to do witha crashed SOlomani Cruiser
>(Nth intersteller war vintage, i think)
>
>Peter

Actually, it WAS a naturally occuring silicone lifeform that latched onto
the circuts of a crashed solomani ship. I just ran players through it 4
months ago.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:18:06 -0800
Subject: Stellar classes

> Which corresponds to how hot the star is.
>The hottest stars are the O, then B,A,F,G,K,M.  (Originally the stars
>were classified by strength of spectral lines,and were later
>reorganized, when people figured out why the lines varied) We only have
>7 letters listed, and all O stars are not going to be exactly the same,
>so we add a number to further specify the type.
>        The Roman Numeral gives the Luminosity class, which tells you
>the rough age of the star.
>V=Main Sequence (When the star is burning Hydrogen at its core)
>IV=Subgiant
>III=Giant
>II=Bright Giants
>I=Supergiants.
>
>I have no idea why the earliest stars are V, while latter stages are I.
>Hope this helps.
>Lewis

Oh, Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me Now Sweetheart: OBAFGKMNS are the types...
O, B, N, and S are all too rare for a 2d roll, or even a 3d roll... and
since O and B are more likely to be interesting... they're added to
Traveller (IMHO).

as for the Roman Numbers, look at hte ages of the stars... the lower the
number, the older the star (generally, but not totally true, AFAIK).

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:18:13 -0800
Subject: Megameters in the real world

I just remembered the one use I have seen for MegaMeters: RF wavelengths,
since they are either measured in angstroms or in Meters Peak to Peak, or
some fraction or multiple thereof...

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:17:53 -0800
Subject: Kilo Litres

>>        Instead of either, we could use kiloliters (kl) -- one kl IS one
>>cubic meter. It's just that liters are usually used to indicate volume of
>>liquids, but there's no hard physical rule ("WARNING: FUSION WILL NOT OCCUR
>>IF YOU MEASURE THE REACTION CHAMBER IN KL").
>
>I'm shure Dave Golden is American as every european knows that one doesn't
>measure anything in kiloliters, that was a unit invented by DGP for unknown
>reasons. Kiloliters and m3 are exactly the same but the former doesn't
>exist in the real world and the latter is harder to write on crummy
>wordprocessors as it should end with an exponent.
>
>/Backman
>

Check again, Backman... I've seen it used in chemical angineering texts
(beloning to my chemical engineer of a father) for flow volumes... and his
texts are from the 1960's! also, since the metric system is based upon
consistant sets of order of magnitude prefixes, and set base units, with
some overlap (Tons metric vs megagrams; same thing, both valid
measurements, until you start doing wierd things like moment and
accelleration calculations, where units are often specific to the order of
magnitude of the outcome, and a slipped decimal can be fatal...)

Some common units and their alternative (scientific/metric) measurements
Kilolitres      m^3
cc's            ml      both used interchangeably
metric ton      1000kg          1E6 grams aka 1 megagram

the Litre is the standard unit of metric volume; litres per second is the
standard unit of metric flow. (Perry's). If you want m^3, divide litres by
1000.

Terra   1E12    T       I can't remember the orders for Hekto, Fempto, Pico,
Giga    1E9     G       nano, micro, or anything above terra. (I don't use
Mega    1E6     M       those measures enough)
Kilo    1E3     K       Also, note that computer memory is close, but not
- --      1e0             quite on the same scales, as in bytes, 1 Kb=1024b,
Deci    1E-1    d       1Mb=1024 Kb, 1 GB= 1024 MB, and 1 Tb= 1024 Gb...
Centi   1E-2    c       all are powers of 8 (and 2...)
Milli   1E-3    m

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:22:55 -0800
Subject: Re: Death during Character Generation

On 25 Jun 96 at 11:06, Joe Walsh spewed:

> On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:
> 
> > I have found over 17+ years of Traveller that the average age in my
> > campaigns is somewhere in the 30's.
> 
> Similarly, four terms was the average for my campaigns...
> 

I hate me too's but mine tended to be about 5 terms.  Most players 
who did 4 would usually hold on 1 more term to get a pension.  But 
this was not always true.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:22:55 -0800
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

On 25 Jun 96 at 9:56, derek stanley spewed:

> 
> And a great take it is.  Do you think GDW had these descussions before 
> they implemented the Virus plan?
> 

If they did, its too bad they didn't make them public.  A few more 
people might have bought into the Virus idea...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:22:55 -0800
Subject: Re: Solomani in TNE

On 25 Jun 96 at 8:35, derek stanley spewed:

> We can postulate, with nearly 100% certianty, that there is a pocket 
> empire based out of the sol system.  It only stands to reason.
> 

This seems reasonable to speculate...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 25 Jun 1996 14:45:43 GMT
Subject: Re: kilolitres

>I'm shure Dave Golden is American as every european knows that one doesn't
>measure anything in kiloliters, that was a unit invented by DGP for unknown
>reasons. Kiloliters and m3 are exactly the same but the former doesn't
>exist in the real world and the latter is harder to write on crummy
>wordprocessors as it should end with an exponent.

Dave Golden is American, but DGP didn't invent the kilolitre.  It is a
perfectly valid metric unit - just not used very much (if at all).  If I
remember correctly, Joe Fugate said once they chose it because the
abbreviation (kL) could be done without superscripting.  This is important,
because while ASCII is universal, superscripting is word processor-specific
- -- thus, kilolitres are easier to use when your writers live on several
continents using many computer types and word processors.

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 14:56:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Various Stuff (Td V96#157)

Derek Stanley wrote:
Re: Solomani
> We can postulate, with nearly 100% certianty, that there is a pocket 
> empire based out of the sol system.  It only stands to reason.

Unless, of course, a Virus was able to take advantage of the large amount
of military hardware located on and around Earth, and blast the planet to
cinders.  There's a good chance that, in the New Era, Earth is an
uninhabitable radioactive nightmare, currently going through nuclear winter,
and with the largest land-dwelling animal remaining the cockroach.

If you're going to do Armageddon and Dark
Future a'la T:TNE, at least do it right.

> Joe Walsh wrote:
> > 1)  Computers do not /have/ to be binary.  In the Far Future, trinary
> >computers (or some other type) may be used in addition to binary 
> >computers.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand how a trinary system would work.  In computers 
> somethings either off "0" or its on "1" there's no middle of the road 
> when it comes to electricity.  Currently that is.

One straightforward way to build a trinary computer would be to use
three-phase alternating current to represent the signals, instead of direct
current used by computers here-and-now on Earth.  The three distinct phases
would then be 0, 1, and 2.

Even if built out of silicon, such computers would bear almost no
resemblance to digital-logic machines.  Even the fundamental building blocks
such as logic gates and memories would be radically different.

There have been a number of computers built that do not use binary.  One of
the more famous was ENIAC.  It used streams of pulses to carry data (a lot
like the dialing signals from a rotary telephone), so that a single wire
could carry any value from 0 to 9.

Binary is used today because it's efficent, easy to understand, and easy to
implement in silicon.  There's no reason that computers in the Far Future
have to use binary, or have to be silicon-based.

> This is true but the basic building blocks of all that it binary.  Though 
> binary Virus could enter any computer.  Binary is merely the door.

That's rather like saying that English, French, German, Italian, and Spanish
all use the approximately the same alphabet.  Therefore, if you study an
engineering textbook in one of those languages long enough, you'll eventually
become entirely fluent in it, to the point of being able to compose poetry.

> And a great take it is.  Do you think GDW had these descussions before 
> they implemented the Virus plan?

I doubt it.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   "A shining New Era is tiptoeing nearer ..."
                                                "... and where do we feature?"

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 25 Jun 1996 15:00:12 GMT
Subject: Re: Rob Prior's Trading System

>There's just one possible problem with using the system that I can see...
>
>Maybe I'm wrong, but the 1D per population number rule seems like it would 
>make it really hard to get many of the goods on higher population 
>worlds.  As you probably know, the greater the number of dice thrown, 
>the steeper the curve.  That is, on a Population 9 world the resulting 
>table will yield results that are at the top of the curve (the middle of 
>the table) very, very often and the rest of the results in the table 
>will come up only once in a while.  

Actually, this was deliberate.  Some goods are more common (eg. wheat in
Canada, coal in Newcastle...) and I wanted to somehow reflect this in the
table.  Personally, I would be inclined to put most of the obscenely
profitable goods out on the ends of the tables, just to keep them uncommon.

Another option, which I tried and discarded, just use three levels of
variety:

Lo-population worlds got 1D
Mod-population worlds got 2D
Hi-population worlds got 3D

But I felt that this didn't adequately reflect the sheer size of a high
population economy.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 25 Jun 1996 15:06:26 GMT
Subject: Re: Islamic Law (was  Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #149)

>Recently the high court of Iran ruled that anyone who did not believe
>that the world was flat was an athiest.  And athiests are commended to
>death in Iran.  

Yes, but Iran is a fundamentalist country.  (At least, it is according to the
refugees I teach.)

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 25 Jun 1996 15:10:52 GMT
Subject: Deck Plan Dimensions

>My understanding is that standard deckplans will be 2'x2'x3.5' for T4. 
>So each hex/square will be 1 displacement ton.  Folks that are
>designing standard sized containers, fixtures, etc might want to keep
>that in mind. 

This is correct.  But remember, when drawing deck plan, that the walls of
compartments _don't_ have to follow the boundaries of squares!

The technique I use is to place a small red (or gray) cross in the _middle_
of the square.  This way, my one-metre-wide corridors still have a marker to
place a miniature on, yet I don't have the silly situation of having
corridors the size of staterooms.


------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 15:18:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Prices, trademarks,  call signs,etc.

At 11:52 PM 6/25/96 +1000, David Watson wrote:
>1. Trade Prices
>	Home grown: fully detailed trade rules (eg. Rob Miracle's, or
>mine). 

Actually, the trading rules are Rob Priors, I just complain about the Book 7/
MT/TNE trading system.


>2. CALL SIGNS
>
>>organizations today that use call signs.  Besides its more fun to call
>>someone Grumble than Dr. Habius.  8)
>
>Oh, I don't know, Dr Habius Corpus sounds fine by me. ;-)

Call signs should be part of role playing.  Some people have call signs
others do not.  Some times the call signs are used only part of the time.
Fighter pilots tend to use their call sign more than their own name.  CB'ers
use their call sign less than their real name (only in the field where the
name is applicable).  I don't think the game needs to suggest call signs as
the players will do that on their own if its important to them.


Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 15:19:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

 

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Charles Pratt wrote:

> 
> On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Larry Hadley wrote:
> 
> >   If after reading this, you still don't get the point, then I challenge
> > you to write a Virus that can infect *both* my '486 PC, running OS/2 and a
> > 68x0x0 Mac, running Sys/7 - with*out* any differences in the Virus
> > between the two. Further, the process must be *invisible*, must not give
> > any clues to it's existence prior to infection, and is unremovable without
> > destroying the computer. (Another dumb stipulation by GDW)
> 
> I recall one of my Caltech friends relating that a virus had been
> discovered that had infected a variety of different platforms (Mac, DOS,
> OS/2, etc.) using the macro functions already inherent in some programs.
> Granted this limits the program to a specific brand of coding (I believe
> in this case it was some Microsoft product), but it was not limited by the
> platform upon which those were operating.  So in a sense, this can bridge
> the gap, as it would be unfeasable to have a huge number of coding systems
> just to foil a virus...the line between the necessity for system
> protection and the necessity for compatiblity between systems would be a
> fine one.
> 
> Btw, the content of the virus was "This should be enough to prove my
> point."
> 
> If anyone is interested in more specifics, drop me a line, and I
> will dig up what I can find.


   The software in question was Micro$haft Word, and the "virus" was a
Word macro. Several points:

1) There is _no_ version of Word for OS/2
2) It's not a Virus, it's a Trojan; an entirely different kettle of fish.
3) It still won't work on _all_ systems, simply because it *requires* a
special software component to work. Remember, Virus can infect *any*
computer, a plainly ridiculous assumption - which is my whole point.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 15:22:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Regency vs. RC

>No.  The RC as of 1201 has one TL12 world and the rest are in the TL10-8 
>range with the exception of Spires which is at TL2 

Really, I didn't know that.  As I said, I haven't got anything but the main
TNE.  I want to get both the Regency Sourcebook, and RC Equipment but I
can't afford them at the moment ($26!! for the Regency Sourcebook!)

>This is absolutly true.  Although but the time 1201 rolls around the 
>words nobility in the Regency don't mean a damn thing and they'll mean 

True.  Do they meet in 1201?  Do we know this?  If it's further in the
future there may not even be limited nobility in the Regency any more.

>and there's something in one of the source books (PoT?) about a more 
>unlikely group practically destined to fail but the Hivers chose them and 
>how now we can only look back and marvel at how well they did succeed.

Succeed?!?  Hmmmm...I wonder if we'll ever find out (Mileu 1200?)

>WHo know's whether the Star Viking's methods were harsh, personally I 
>think not and given the same circumstances I think we'd all behave in a 

Actually, from the info in the TNE book, I've always seen them as not harsh,
but doing what was needed.  Like it says somewhere, all of the galaxy's
worlds are needed for a proper soceity, so what right do they have to stay
stuck in the past (what's the exact quote, I'll have to look).

>similer fashion.  Perhaps the Regency is simply judging them harshly 
>because other than the "Rape of Trin" they have no real common reference 
>frame as to what these people went through in the collapse.

True.  And in 1201 they've never been into the Wilds so they haven't even
seen things there either.  THey really have no frame of reference.

Peter


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 25 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 159

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Death during Character Generation
         2. YugoBox uses and design motivation
         3. Virus
         4. Re: Virus by Email
         5. Re: Virus by Email
         6. Re: Virus by Email
         7. Re: Regency vs. RC
         8. Re: Virus by Email
         9. Re: Virus by Email
        10. Re: Regency vs. RC
        11. 20 thoughts on virus
        12. Re: Deck Plan Dimensions
        13. Re: Death during Character Generation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 14:32:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Death during Character Generation

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> On 25 Jun 96 at 11:06, Joe Walsh spewed:
> I hate me too's but mine tended to be about 5 terms.  Most players 
> who did 4 would usually hold on 1 more term to get a pension.  But 
> this was not always true.

My players weren't gamblers, sadly.  Rarely did someone go to the fifth 
term, and take the additional aging risks on.  Sigh.

Oh, speaking of aging, I've been thinking on this one lately:  How many 
years will a person who lives in a TL 15 society live on average?  
Traveller postulates that people will live about as long as they do now, 
when in fact life spans have been increasing as tech levels increase in 
the real world.  

Has anyone ever developed house rules for this sort of thing?  Heck, even 
200 year life spans would make sense.  Of course, this would ruin the 
play balance involved in the aging tables (but, IMHO, that isn't 
necessary with survival throws - the more terms you take, the more chance 
of your character dying).

Any thoughts on this?

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 12:35:24 MST7
Subject: YugoBox uses and design motivation

Or Pirates of the Carribean OH NO!

I designed the YugoBox in specific response to a bunch of people 
claiming that a ship simply could not be profitable at 1000Cr/ton 
freight rates. 

It isn't designed to be a ship that cruises the dark alleys of the 
imperium looking for a fight.

Stuart challenges me to find a jump 1 route in the Spinward Marches 
that isn't dangerous...no sh*t sherlock...I said these ships ran in 
the Imperial CORE...the Marches have always been portrayed as a 
frontier sector, on the fringes of Imperial Space, they are NOT the 
'protected core' I was talking about. Give me the height of Imperial 
power, in the years befoore the Rebellion, and travel from Core to 
Vland and tell me how many pirates you'll find. The simple answer is 
none.

 It would be on the order of trying to sieze a large cruise ship 
in the Caribbean...you will attract a great deal of very unhealthy 
attention very quickly.  Those SDB's that the imperium has all over 
are there for this very purpose, and that's gonna suppress piracy.

If you want a 'little more dangerous' Imperium, then by all means, 
have everyone run around armed to the teeth...all any potential 
Cleon 1 has to do is realize just how much money he could make and 
power he could amass by kicking out the pirates...other worlds and 
their attendant trade will flock to his banner in a 
heartbeat...that's why the wars of pacification were relatively 
minor, and why the Imperium grew so fast: trade was a hell of a lot 
safer.

	Besides, given what cheap freighters tend to carry, it would be a 
real pisser for a pirate to take one of them, and find out that 
they're the proud owners of several displacement tons of stuffed Mike 
the Ponii dolls, a crate or two of left handed widget gears, and 5 
copies of Microsoft Office 1098 (that accounts for the rest of the 
150 DT of cargo space ;-)

	Again, the Imperium exists to give trade protection to it's member 
states.  If it can't do that it won't exist.
Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 12:50:34 MST7
Subject: Virus

	One thing about Virus transmission and propogation that's been 
overlooked is the fact that the main route of transmission were the 
ID transponders.

	Now, the description given of the evolution of the transponders (I 
don't remember in either Vampire Fleets or Survival Margin) shows one 
quick route into 'foreign' systems.  Since the Imperium mandated the 
Deyo series of transponders for travel in the imperium, most foreign 
ships added them to their systems. Also, since the Deyo system 
actually required a link into the ships systems to function, the 
necessary hardware/software was there to facilitate virus 
transmission.

	As for adapting to new architectures, etc.  Remember this: these 
chips were evolved from life feorms that foound a bunch of hardware 
on a crashed Solomani ship and incorporated this stuff into their 
'genetic code'. This is what the Cybeline chips DO, how they evolve, 
by glomming onto circuitry and incorporating it.  Glomming onto 
unfamilar circuitry may take a while, but remember this was something 
designed as a weapon...it was designed to do, if not exactly what it 
did, something close to it. 

	IMO the other main reason for the rapid spread of Virus through the 
imperium is that computing systems had evolved along the lines they 
are now...more and more the network IS the computer.  Imperial ships 
were so vulnerable because all their computer systems were completely 
networked...that way an engineer could 'log in' to the food service 
terminal in the cafeteria and check up on the status of the M-drives. 
 Perhaps a facetious example, but this is the kind of architecture 
that would allow such rapid spread of the Virus, AND ensure that it 
was in complete control of the ship when it was done.



	
Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:34:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

 

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:

> Remember all computers, reguardless of who designed them have one thing 
> in common.  Binary.

  Oh really? Who's to say the Hivers or the K'kree don't use ternary
logic? This has been a PIVOTAL factor in some s/f in the past. (and I
specifically had this in mind as one of the factors when I mentioned
differing architectures)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:43:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:
> Larry Hadley wrote:
> >  Architectures won't just change from race to race, they'll change from
> >tech-level to tech-level as new technologies come on line and make
> >different techniques possible. Varying architectures _insure_ that Virus
> >cannot run it's code on *all* machines.
> 
> The thing with Virus that you have to remember is it's not only very 
> sophisticated but it's also alive.  Imagine if you will that you:
> 1)have a 100% photographic memory, and
> 2)have 100% motor control.
> Now add into the mix that you know how to drive a Yugo.  Assume that you 
> spent 24 hours (you don't need to sleep either) watching a driver, drive 
> a bus.  Think you could drive that bus?  Probably, the idea is the same 
> between the car and the bus.  Now imagine you've spent 24 hours inside 
> and M1 tank watching the crew, think you could drive the tank.  Again 
> probably you've learned the basics while sitting there, sure you might 
> drive through a house but you could drive it.
> 
> The analogy is the same for the virus.  It sneaks into the system (it is 
> possible to get an IBM virus on a Mac it may not work but the code is 
> still in there) and sits there for days watching and learning about 
> what's going on in the system.  Once the virus feels comfortable in comes 
> out and takes over.

   DNC, troopie.

   There are two absolutely *CRITICAL* factors you have to understand
about viruses:

   1) They have to be executed to infect, that means they have to have
valid binaries for the computer in question *before* it is loaded into the
machine.

   2) Viruses don't "watch", they either run or they don't. See "1" above.

> >   Sensors send/read DATA, period. No executable machine code is loaded
> >into the computer via sensors, if it were I wouldn't even bother 
> >building Warships I'd just use computer overrides to take control of 
> >enemy ships.
> 
> In theory you could do this, the overrides that is.  Passive sensors pick 
> up everything in the area.  These signals are then passed through a 
> "computer" which interprets the signals and sends the data to you.  
> Active sensors do the same thing.  When the ship is largely automated 
> these signals would be routed though several computers, all monitered by 
> the main computer.  Sensors are the perfect method of infection, they're 
> processing so much information virus could easily slip past the 
> anti-virus programs of the 3rd Imperium.  Remember when a new virus comes 
> out now it takes weeks for a cure to appear on the net.  By that time 
> with Virus it's to late.

<sarcasm on>

   So tell me, how does range and targetting data get confused as orders
by this computer network?

<sarcasm off>

   Please explain how all this RAW DATA, which never gets loaded into
the CPU as code and can NEVER be executed by the computer, "gets past"
anti-virus defenses to infect the computer.

   Data is data, code is code, never the twain shall meet - you can
design a system that can accept code from the sensors, but the question
remains - WHY??? It increases vulnerability to things EXACTLY like we've
been discussing for no good reason. I can't think of a single reason why
*any* ship designer would want to include this capability. Doing this to a
military vessel is the height of stupidity.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 14:08:00 -0600
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

On 06/25/96 at 09:48 AM,  derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> said:

>I'm not sure I understand how a trinary system would work.  In
>computers  somethings either off "0" or its on "1" there's no middle
>of the road  when it comes to electricity.  Currently that is.

Right now, "0" is low voltage and "1" is anything above some voltage
limit...or vice versa.  Computers could be designed using different
voltage levels to represent different number systems, in fact in the
late 40's - early 50's there was experimental work done on this, both
with mechanical switchs and vacumn tube technology.  It was a *very*
complicated mess.  John von Neumann, among others, proposed dropping
attempts to make computers use complicated number systems, and stick
with the easier binary. For the time being..nobody said it couldn't be
done, just that it was taking too much effort and time with their
current technology.

If/when we transition to optical based and/or nano-mechanical
computers I expect we'll see *very* different hardware architectures. 
Optical and nano-mechanical systems are natural for parellel
operations, and >binary architectures.

Speaking of nano-mechanical systems, I can envision..barely, but
that's my limited imaganation <g>..self-modifing hardware systems. 
Picture millions of tiny mobile "nits" moving around on a chip
reconfiguring themselves to match some template.  You know how enzymes
and other organic molecules fit together matching to site
receptors...extend that to our little "nits" on the chip reconfiguring
based on a new template.  Now add advanced
"learning" algorithms (neural nets are where we are today), and
software can adapt AND change the hardware to meet changing conditions
by providing these templates.

So bringing it back to Traveller, if something like "Virus" could
exist there's your model.  Self-replicating, self-modifing, and above
some critical level *maybe* self-aware!
 
Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 14:14:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Regency vs. RC

Tom Miller wrote:
> 
>>No. The RC as of 1201 has one TL12 world and the rest are in the TL10-8
>>range with the exception of Spires which is at TL2
> 
>Really, I didn't know that.As I said,I haven't got anything but the main
>TNE.  I want to get both the Regency Sourcebook, and RC Equipment but I
>can't afford them at the moment ($26!! for the Regency Sourcebook!)

Here's a rough List of RC tech levels as of 1201.

Aubaine subsector		Oriflamme subsector
Trybec 10			Ra 6
Rohit 9				Enkidu 9
Fija 10				Spires 2
Apollo 8			Baldur 9
Vezina 7			Zloga 9
Aurora 11			Lucifer 8
Eos 11				Shenandoah 6
Schall 7			Helios 4
Nike Nimbus 9			Oriflamme 9
Kruyter 11			Spencer 7
Phoebus 3
Aubaine 12

> True.  Do they meet in 1201?  Do we know this?  If it's further in the
> future there may not even be limited nobility in the Regency any more.

First reference I've seen of their meeting is dated 1206 (?) from the 
back of Vampire Fleets.
 
> Succeed?!?  Hmmmm...I wonder if we'll ever find out (Mileu 1200?)

Most likely we will but that'll take 2-3 years.
 
>Actually,from the info in the TNE book,I've always seen them as not 
>harsh, but doing what was needed.  Like it says somewhere, all of the 
>galaxy's worlds are needed for a proper soceity, so what right do they 
>have to stay stuck in the past (what's the exact quote, I'll have to 
>look).

Ya, I think that's Hammer who says that.  Oo  Oo  Oo  Hamma' time!  8)
 
>True. And in 1201 they've never been into the Wilds so they haven't even
>seen things there either.  THey really have no frame of reference.

By the time that quote is made many Reg operatives do have experience in 
the wilds.  Whether that fellow did or not I don't know.  But in 1201 the 
Regency has a rather misguided view of what to expect in the wilds.

	"The unspoken assuption seems to be that the universe will 
	welcome them back as liberators from the darkness.  The 
	possiblity that the Regency might have to fight wars for the 
	Hearts and Minds and real estate of those they would liberate has 
	not been rigorously examined."
					Recency Source Book: p5

They seem to have no idea as to the opinions of the vast majority of 
survivors in the NE nor have they bothered to do much ground work on 
finding this out.  The Regency has a very insular view where as the RC 
has a very external way of thinking.  This could be because the RC can 
afford to lose less equipment and men in the job to come so it has to do 
the ground work before it sends the troops in.  Where as in the Regency 
there is such a large economic machine, comparatively, at work that 
losing equipment is considered acceptable.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 14:22:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

Larry Hadley wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:
> > Larry Hadley wrote:
> > >  Architectures won't just change from race to race, they'll change from
> > >tech-level to tech-level as new technologies come on line and make
> > >different techniques possible. Varying architectures _insure_ that Virus
> > >cannot run it's code on *all* machines.
> >
> > The thing with Virus that you have to remember is it's not only very
> > sophisticated but it's also alive.  Imagine if you will that you:
> > 1)have a 100% photographic memory, and
> > 2)have 100% motor control.
> > Now add into the mix that you know how to drive a Yugo.  Assume that you
> > spent 24 hours (you don't need to sleep either) watching a driver, drive
> > a bus.  Think you could drive that bus?  Probably, the idea is the same
> > between the car and the bus.  Now imagine you've spent 24 hours inside
> > and M1 tank watching the crew, think you could drive the tank.  Again
> > probably you've learned the basics while sitting there, sure you might
> > drive through a house but you could drive it.
> >
> > The analogy is the same for the virus.  It sneaks into the system (it is
> > possible to get an IBM virus on a Mac it may not work but the code is
> > still in there) and sits there for days watching and learning about
> > what's going on in the system.  Once the virus feels comfortable in comes
> > out and takes over.
> 
>    DNC, troopie.
> 
>    There are two absolutely *CRITICAL* factors you have to understand
> about viruses:
> 
>    1) They have to be executed to infect, that means they have to have
> valid binaries for the computer in question *before* it is loaded into the
> machine.
> 
>    2) Viruses don't "watch", they either run or they don't. See "1" above.

That's because 20th century virus's in computers aren't "alive."  They 
can't think, they can't plan, and they can't reason.  They just are and 
they do their job.

> <sarcasm on>
> 
> So tell me, how does range and targetting data get confused as orders
> by this computer network?
> 
> <sarcasm off>

Chill Larry, that's pretty uncalled for.

It doesn't the virus is merely using the return echo as a method of 
entry.  This is the least desirable method of entry, passive sensor would 
be much more useful as they simply sit there and listen to everything 
that's going on around them.  Process the data and spit it out to us in a 
format that we can understand.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 14:28:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Right now, "0" is low voltage and "1" is anything above some voltage
> limit...or vice versa.  Computers could be designed using different
> voltage levels to represent different number systems, in fact in the
> late 40's - early 50's there was experimental work done on this, both
> with mechanical switchs and vacumn tube technology.  It was a *very*
> complicated mess.  John von Neumann, among others, proposed dropping
> attempts to make computers use complicated number systems, and stick
> with the easier binary. For the time being..nobody said it couldn't be
> done, just that it was taking too much effort and time with their
> current technology.

okay this makes sence so each (processor in the ciruct would also have to 
be connected to some kind of voltage meter to interpret the power pulse 
thus allowing more information to be transmitted in a shorter "pulse."
 
> If/when we transition to optical based and/or nano-mechanical
> computers I expect we'll see *very* different hardware architectures.
> Optical and nano-mechanical systems are natural for parellel
> operations, and binary architectures.[snip]
> software can adapt AND change the hardware to meet changing conditions
> by providing these templates.
> 
> So bringing it back to Traveller, if something like "Virus" could
> exist there's your model.  Self-replicating, self-modifing, and above
> some critical level *maybe* self-aware!

Okay that makes sence, basically our problem now is we're talking about 
something so advanced there's no way we can possibly comprehend what's 
going on without a PHD in nanotech.  I can accept that as a plausable 
explanation, if we assume the Virus subverts these nanites.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: gsw@aloft.att.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 17:11:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Regency vs. RC

"V.A.G." <GREI5001@uni-trier.de> wrote:
> [ ... ] This is what i REALLY
> liked about CT: It was static, all adventures could be played, no
> matter what the Characters did (Vmpire Fleets, for example can be
> ruined by charakters doing the wrong thing, like destroying Sandman,
> because they don't trust them, thereby rewriting the entire RC History
> (as viiewed from the future).
> 
> I hope ImperiumGames adoptes the older approach as well, that while
> detailing a Milieu as far as nessessary to the point that afer 3-4
> Sourcebooks, they move on to the next milieu that would be far enough
> away in time and space as to not invatilidating the old campaigns that
> may have developed.

Sorry for the "me too", but I agree wholeheartedly.

In CT, you could have as much or as little stability as you wished.
For example, I once put together a "backwater" star cluster in the
Diaspora cluster. Even with the rebellion, the inhabitants did not
have to concern themselves with galactic politics (had the Solomani
decided to "recapture" this territory, the general populace would
not notice any real effect anyway). The local politics were *very*
volatile, but the overall campaign had a certain consistency about
it. However, as MT progressed (to TNE eventually), it became clear
that galactic events would have a *major* effect on this campaign,
forcing me to split it away from the "official" universe. I think
this is exactly the type of thing that soured many to Traveller.

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:58:14 -0500
Subject: 20 thoughts on virus

Rather than quoting a bunch of text and sending a reply, I'll just post my
personal take on Virus.

A few points need to be taken:

1. Virus is sentient.

2. Current computer Viruses (or is it Viri? :) can only take effect when
operated on, but by definition, a sentient virus could decide when it took
effect.

3. Virus gained sentience in a research station while connected to a vast
database.

4. The above mentioned research station was near the core of the Imperium.
The records in the database would have been the most extensive in the Imperium.

5. The above mentioned Virus would have had the capeability to infect any
other computer system it came into contact with that it had the opportunity
to study about.

6. All transponders (not just Imperial/human ships, but all ships travelling
in the Imperium) had a version of the Virus developed above.

7. The Virus in the above Transponders would have to be able to interface
with the alien computer systems as well as with the human ones.

8. Each time Virus is transmitted, the new starin is somewhat different in
make up than the originator, and it is an entirely new "creature."

9. the "bad virus" released from Lucan's research lab would have combined
with the existing transponder virus to form a new creature.

10.  This new creature would be able to interact both with it's new
environment, and with it's old transponder unit.

11. As a sentient creture, it could learn from its past.

12. The virus would learn that it could only infect a similar computer
structure through communications and sensors (which would be run through
computers or else why to you use a computer multiplier on the electronics
crew figures).

13.  The virus would know that it could only infect foreign computer systems
if it A: knew the system, or B: used the transponder.

14. Many Vargr ships would use a similar sturcture and system as the
Imperium from which it took much equipment (in the form of raiding).

15. The Hiver and Aslan both were occasional trading partners with the
Imperium, and their ships would have had transponders.

16. The Solomani and the Imperium traded sectors so often that they would
have wasted a lot of time if they couldn't interface each others equipment
directly.  Not to mention the first axiom of war, "Know your enemy!"

17.  The variety in the Aslan and the Technical expertise in the Hiver would
have slowed the progression of virus in their areas (a known fact).

18. If you doubt the similarity of the computer systems, think of the basis
for much of the technology, Grandfather.  Much of the technological
developments discovered after the "finding" of the jump drives by the major
races would be developed on the basis of the technology Gramps left behind
which would be similar.

19. Initially, the early virus (ie, the one from Lucan's research station)
was destructive in the same way the proverbial brainwashed marine is -- as a
war machine.  

20. Later forms of virus gained more of an ability to think beyond it's
original training, thus the "mother," "god," "reproducer" strains.

Just some thoughts.

And one to grow on.

21.  Virus was born, used, freed, and evolved.  The current (ie Sandman)
types of virus are much more logistic and controlled.


Paul


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 16:58:34 -0600
Subject: Re: Deck Plan Dimensions

On 06/25/96 at 03:10 PM,  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob
Prior) said:

>>My understanding is that standard deckplans will be 2'x2'x3.5' for T4
>>So each hex/square will be 1 displacement ton.  Folks that are
>>designing standard sized containers, fixtures, etc might want to keep
>>that in mind. 

>This is correct.  But remember, when drawing deck plan, that the
>walls of compartments _don't_ have to follow the boundaries of
>squares!

You're right, of course, but some of us still draw deck plans on
actual hex/graph paper.  Keeping things so that they fit within the
boundaries makes it easier on us.

>The technique I use is to place a small red (or gray) cross in the
>_middle_ of the square.  This way, my one-metre-wide corridors still
>have a marker to place a miniature on, yet I don't have the silly
>situation of having corridors the size of staterooms.

I'm sure this works well, if you are a graphic artist, draftsman, or
are using a computer program to create your plans.
Personally, I have trouble drawing a straight line even with a
computer's help.  <g> So what's your advice for the artisticly
challenged, like me?

Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:16:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Death during Character Generation

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

> 
> My players weren't gamblers, sadly.  Rarely did someone go to the fifth 
> term, and take the additional aging risks on.  Sigh.
> 
> Oh, speaking of aging, I've been thinking on this one lately:  How many 
> years will a person who lives in a TL 15 society live on average?  
> Traveller postulates that people will live about as long as they do now, 
> when in fact life spans have been increasing as tech levels increase in 
> the real world.  

Actually, without considering artificial or cloned organ replacements, it
seems that the max will be around 100 to 150, and that is just extended
life, aging still sets in at around the same time in terms of lost
physical capacity, etc.



> 
> Has anyone ever developed house rules for this sort of thing?  Heck, even 
> 200 year life spans would make sense.  Of course, this would ruin the 
> play balance involved in the aging tables (but, IMHO, that isn't 
> necessary with survival throws - the more terms you take, the more chance 
> of your character dying).


I use 100 for a baseline if players live in a high stellar type society,
about 200 for pure Vilani (admittedly rare in 1100).


> 
> Any thoughts on this?
> 
> -Joe
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
> ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
> Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
> 
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #159
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 25 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 160

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Virus by Email
         2. Surface Area on Airframe hulls
         3. "Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast!"
         4. Pirates and what the Navy is for..
         5. RE: Stellare Classification
         6. Re: TNE 
         7. Re: Profitiable Starships
         8. Re: Virus by Email
         9. Re: Death during Character Generation
        10. Re: Virus by Email
        11. Re: 20 thoughts on virus
        12. Re: Stellar classes
        13. Re: Virus by Email
        14. Death, taxes, and traveller
        15. Re: Rob Prior's Trading System
        16. Re: Death during Character Generation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: gsw@aloft.att.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:14:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

Oh no! Virus! And we were so close to reuniting the lists! :-)

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> wrote:
> > Remember all computers, reguardless of who designed them have one thing 
> in common.  Binary.

Not true. Analog computers do exist. Binary computers largely replaced
them, but that is due to what technology was available (you can toss a
whole bunch of transistors on a chip). There is reason to believe that
analog computers will be making a comeback with some new technologies.

There have also been computers that used other basic data units (such
as decimal), although these don't seem to be making a comeback yet.

> This is true but the basic building blocks of all that it binary.  Though 
> binary Virus could enter any computer.  Binary is merely the door.

This topic was discussed to death before the TML split.

Sure, Virus can infect just about any computer. Sure, it can learn
about new systems (even those using different technologies). The
fundamental problem is assuming that *all* computers are vulnerable.
Certainly *some* computers would be "mathematically proven" to be
invulnerable. We see this today in military applications where a
particular technology is used because it is "trusted", though not
necessarily the most efficient. When an advanced "untrustworthy"
system is used, it is limited to certain physical connections and
monitored by a "trusted" system.

But then again, so what? It's only a game, right? Besides, only the
military would be capable of such a gross foul-up as letting the
Deyo transponders have "trusted" access to all systems when there
are three levels of trusted systems between the refrigerator door
switch and the light. :-) :-) :-)

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-



------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:22:02 GMT
Subject: Surface Area on Airframe hulls

I was just curious why there is a Surface Area multiplier for hulls equipped
with an Airframe hull?  Wouldn't the extra area gained be required as a lifting
surface, leaving the usable surface area (for weapons, sensors, etc.) the same?
Being somewhat new to FF&S (and its grandsons QSDS and SSDS), I'm discovering
little things every day.

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:34:11 -0700
Subject: "Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast!"

Since the whole "Virus is Impossible" thread has returned from the dead to
haunt us all (no doubt inspired by the undead adventures of "Dropping
Rocks"),  I have to address all the people who use their knowledge of
computers to bash a plot device.

In 1927, the New York Times blasted Robert Goddard for believing that men
could fly to the moon.  62 years later, on July 20th, 1969, the Times
printed a front-page retraction.

Bill Gates believed that no-one would ever need more than 640k RAM.. in
1981.. try running Windows on that.

The British Goverment expressed great concern over the steam locomotive,
since it was a known fact that at speeds greater than 40mph innocents would
die from having the air sucked out of their lungs.  (1830ish)

The list goes on and on.  We are talking about (A) a setting 3000 YEARS down
the line, and (B) a work of fiction designed to encourage an enviroment
condusive to exciting role-play.

We can all pick holes in what we find "wrong" with Traveller's backround,
based on our own expertise.  Craig finds flaws in the astronomy and physics,
others in the economics, and I get a good chuckle over the handling of the
military.  (BTW:  New Era got it right.. small elite teams working together
closely are the best in that kind of situation.)

My personal Holy Grail is the combat system.  Best?  HarnMaster for
medieval/fantasy, Milennium's End for modern day.  Why?  Because they are
the *closest playable thing to the reality I have witnessed*.  I have fired
thousands of rounds, been in the SCA, played paintball, and been to the
National Traing Center at Ft. Irvin, CA.  I study combat and military history.

Do I let this get in the way of enjoying the game?  Does the fact that the
Third Imperium back-story does not include dropping dino-killers mean that
I'm going to throw the whole thing out and cry in my beer?  No.  I can
forgive a "loose" combat system if it works well in the context of the game.
I can also fill in the gaps in the history of the Imperium with cobbled up
"Just-So" stories.  Why doesn't the Imperium drop rocks?  They did in the
Pacification Campaigns.  Until public outcry forced them to stop.  (Don't
believe in public opinion?  Ask any Vietnam vet about "Rules of Engagement"
before and after the Tet '68 offensive.)

To all the nay-sayers on the list, who insist that what is now is the way it
shall always be...  I have something for you:

A computer magazine from 1985 that states that despite this new product from
MicroSoft, Apple will continue to dominate the computer market, forcing IBM
machines out of the personal market by 1990.

 
# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:34:16 -0700
Subject: Pirates and what the Navy is for..

One quick thing in the whole Yugo/Pirates thread:

What do you think your Marine PCs were doing on those raid missions anyway?
The Mission Statement for the Imperial Navy probably boils down to:  Keep
commerce and communications flowing.

Picture this:  A backwater system has been troubled by a pirate.  He's
picked of three or four merchants so far.  This is enough to slow the
economy as trader Captains avoid the place.

The local Baron petitions the Duke for help.  The Duke sends the 4873CruRon
to the affected system and surronds.  Once there, a sweep begins.  EVERY
ship is boarded a searched.  Backround checks, manifests, the works.
Meanwhile, fighters sweep the good hiding places (trojan points, rings,
etc.) looking for bases.  Eventually, the pirates are caught/killed.

This is good from three points:

1>  The Imperium looks good to the local populace

2>  The CruRon and Marines got some good training, not to mention a live
fire out of it.

3>  The planet gets the money flowing again.

# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:38:54 -0500
Subject: RE: Stellare Classification

unsubscribe traveller

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:56:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: TNE 

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Tom Miller wrote:

> Good luck with TNE Jo!!  I had only bought MegaTraveller and CT, and when I
> bought TNE I was slightly prejudiced against it.  However, what I found was
> an interesting background (I for one, do find the Virus believable) and a
> way to play in the setting I liked (The Regency).  Also, something I realyl
> like about TNE are the 'pocket empires' options.  THis definitely is a plus
> for the game

I received the Deluxe Edition TNE boxed set today.  I've only had a 
chance to read portions of it, so I can't make an final judgements yet.  
Some thoughts, though, will follow (warning: if the person reading this 
is incapable of intelligent discussion, please skip this message.  No 
matter what I say about TNE, it's going to be the opposite opinion of 
someone.  On the other hand, intelligent counter-points are welcome.)

> With the rules, I really can't say.  I think they're better than CT but
> about on par with MT.  Actually, in my games I utilize a mix of the two
> systems, with some stuff of my own added in.

So far, my feelings on the rules in general are:

1)  Geez, that's a lot of rules.  Almost a page and a half on initiative 
alone!!  Complete?  Yes, but daunting.

2)  I love the section on "Using the Rules," especially the first three 
paragraphs.  This sort of sentiment should be included in all 
role-playing games.

3)  Gadzooks, the editing was bad.  Just reading a few sections, I've 
found a lot of grammatical errors and typos.  Now, I'm not a fanatic 
about this.  Professionally published novels, with distribution far 
greater than any RPG, have errors in them.  And, this is a BIG book.  
Still, I hope IG does a better job of editing.

4)  Characters:  

	a) Lots of classes...that's fine by me.  Like the rest of 
the book, it just adds to the task before the beginning referee.  But, if 
you've already got it in your mind to make a 400 page rule book, might as 
well have plenty of classes.

	b) The character generation process is workable, I don't knock 
that.  But I still like the old system better.

	c)  Nice skill list.

	d)  The characteristics are screwy.  Agility instead of 
dexterity...fine.  But adding charisma?  And the whole idea of putting 
Social Standing off to the side is rather silly.  Were they afraid of 
making it seven basic characteristics (or eight, with psionics)?  I admit 
I don't understand the thinking behind this.  Maybe it will come clear as 
I read further.

	e)  I could do without the text prior to the generation 
information for each character type.  It seems hokey to me.  


5)  NPC's:  They give the GM a way to randomly determine 
NPC personalities (using a standard deck of cards), but then they make a 
hand-wave when it comes to NPC appearance generation.  Okay, NPC 
motivations are more important than their looks.  But, again, if you're 
trying to make a very complete RPG (as they obviously were, with that 1.5 
page initiative section, among others), why not throw in a table for NPC 
appearance generaton, with modifiers for motivation/personality type.


That's it for now.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 17:57:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Profitiable Starships

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> I challenge you to find 2 adequately defended systems in the Marches
> to jump from 1 to another on the Spinward Main.  If you look at Fifth
> Frontier War (the only canonical listing of system defenses), there
> aren't too many within Jump 1 of each other.

Well, they don't necessarily have to have a full-blown system defense
system.  Say some venture capitalist picks up six of the YugoThingys and
three mustered out close escorts.  Two escorts escort the cargo carriers
to the jump point, one jumps with them, and one meets the ships as they
drop out of jump, and escorts the cargo ships to the destination, along
with the other escort that jumped.  I STILL think that these could find a
nice niche to operate in, based on the premise that anything worth
defending will be well defended (and the YugoBoxes again, are probably
only transporting slag).

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:58:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:
> Larry Hadley wrote:
> >    DNC, troopie.
> > 
> >    There are two absolutely *CRITICAL* factors you have to understand
> > about viruses:
> > 
> >    1) They have to be executed to infect, that means they have to have
> > valid binaries for the computer in question *before* it is loaded into the
> > machine.
> > 
> >    2) Viruses don't "watch", they either run or they don't. See "1" above.
> 
> That's because 20th century virus's in computers aren't "alive."  They 
> can't think, they can't plan, and they can't reason.  They just are and 
> they do their job.

   What has that have to do with this discussion? UNLESS THE COMPUTER CAN
******UNDERSTAND******* THE BINARY CODE THE VIRUS IS WRITTEN IN, IT
****CANNOT**** EXECUTE THE VIRUS, PERIOD!!!

   A Virus is a computer program, it has EXACTLY the same limitations as
any other program, *EXACTLY*.

> > <sarcasm on>
> > 
> > So tell me, how does range and targetting data get confused as orders
> > by this computer network?
> > 
> > <sarcasm off>
> 
> Chill Larry, that's pretty uncalled for.

   Stop pouring gasoline on this thread, and start *listening* to what I'm
saying, and maybe we'll get somewhere.

> It doesn't the virus is merely using the return echo as a method of 
> entry.  This is the least desirable method of entry, passive sensor would 
> be much more useful as they simply sit there and listen to everything 
> that's going on around them.  Process the data and spit it out to us in a 
> format that we can understand.

  <sigh> That still doesn't explain how sensors can accept virii. In order
to enter, there has to be some way for code to be transferred from the
sensors to the CPU, and the CPU has to be told to execute this code. 
SENSORS DO NOT ACCEPT *****CODE***** THEREFOR THEY DO NOT ACCEPT VIRII. Is
that clear enough for you yet??

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:02:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Death during Character Generation

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:

> Joe Walsh wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:
> >
> > > I have found over 17+ years of Traveller that the average age in my
> > > campaigns is somewhere in the 30's.
> >
> > Similarly, four terms was the average for my campaigns...
> >
> > -Joe
>
> It was pretty average in the games I played too.  You'd just get those
> one or two player's who'd keep going and going.

It's the ability (for better or worse, depending on RP ability) to play a
Captain Picard right out of the box.  Anagathics was probably the worst
thing to ever happen to character creation.

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:04:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:

> > 1)  Computers do not /have/ to be binary.  In the Far Future, trinary
> >computers (or some other type) may be used in addition to binary 
> >computers.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand how a trinary system would work.  In computers 
> somethings either off "0" or its on "1" there's no middle of the road 
> when it comes to electricity.  Currently that is.

Three states isn't difficult to achieve.  Voltage levels would be one way 
(right now, it's hi-low; it could be hi-medium-low, or infinite 
variations), if you want to limit it to electronic computers.  Mechanical 
computers could do it, too, of course (a mechanical, three-position 
switch; gears would be easy, too).  

> This is true but the basic building blocks of all that it binary.  Though 
> binary Virus could enter any computer.  Binary is merely the door.

You seem to be presuming that the data transmitted would include 
executable code.  That is, the receiving computer would have to execute 
that code of its own volition.  This isn't unreasonable (I had a BBS for 
quite a while, and the network software was updated via incoming network 
data...that is, the network connection programs came in with the regular 
messages, etc. and the programs were separated out from the data, then 
run), it just presumes lax security.  Who knows, maybe the Imperium was 
lax this way.

Yes, I know, the Virus is alive.  But the virus cannot execute without 
hardware.  Our conciousness, AFAIK, cannot execute without hardware 
either. :)  So, when the Virus is transmitted, it would not be alive 
until executed.  Thus, it could not take over the system until the system 
gave it a chance to by executing it.

Anyway, on second thought, who cares? :)  It's just a part of the game.  
Suspending my disbelief in the Virus won't hurt me.  Now that I have TNE, 
I can see that the Virus wouldn't be one of the things I would complain 
about if I had bought the game back when it came out (ie,before I knew T4 
was coming).


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:04:58 -0700
Subject: Re: 20 thoughts on virus

Paul Walker wrote:

> And one to grow on.
> 
>21.  Virus was born, used, freed, and evolved.  The current (ie Sandman)
>types of virus are much more logistic and controlled.

don't forget. . .

22.  Virus is insane and therefore cannot be fully understood from our 
current reference point.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:06:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Stellar classes

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, William F. Hostman wrote:

> Oh, Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me Now Sweetheart: OBAFGKMNS are the types...

There is an 'R' spectral classification.  It usually gets mushed together
with 'N'.

(OBAFGKMRNS)

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:08:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:

> In theory why would it not be able to watch?  Given the millions of tasks 
> our computers are executing a second if it sent these "children" off to 
> follow the information bundles and report back.  Should it not be able to 
> figure out most of the computer passively?  In a minute to us a Virus 
> would be able to observe millions of operations.  On a 57th century 
> starship it would be able to obseve Trillions of operations (or a billion 
> if your english 8)  ).  By sending out and bringing back it's children it 
> should be able to figure things out in a matter of days without having to 
> do much of anything actively.

Easy answer: I dunno.  Three thousand years from now, maybe so.

Another answer:  Nah. All it would be able to see would be data, which 
wouldn't give it any clue to how the processor operates.

> And a great take it is.  Do you think GDW had these descussions before 
> they implemented the Virus plan?

Dunno.  Throughout my experience with GDW, I've had the distinct 
impression that they were experts in wargames, but not in computers.  
So, I tend to think they either didn't do much research into the virus 
(what is written in the book vis a vis today's virii is common 
knowledge), or made a concious decision to go with something that is, in 
present-day terms, difficult to believe.  But, again, we run into that 
3000 year time span.  Who knows what'll be possible then?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:03:05 -0300
Subject: Death, taxes, and traveller

At 06:16 PM 6/25/96 -0400, Joe wrote:
 
>Traveller postulates that people will live about as long as they do now, 
>when in fact life spans have been increasing as tech levels increase in 
>the real world.  

Enh, well, sort of: I'm not sure that the average age of "death by old age
with only minor complications" has really increased since the biblical 70,
80 if you're tough.  All the reasons for dying earlier of something else
have been sort of pushed back, however.

Which is beside the point  -- you can posit anything, traveller having
Anagathics as the out.  I've always suspected that T anagathics were
modelled of Booster Spice from Larry Niven's known spice: openly available,
but rare and awfully expensive.  Niven glances at some of the implication,
like Louis Wu's surprise at the risk implicit in Ringworld architecture and
contrasting it with human conservatism brought on by the prospect of extream
old age.  

Aside from the occasional 80 year old admiral, I've never had to address it
in a campaign.

>Any thoughts on this?

Its got to have an effect on societies.  No matter what the cost, lots of
people are going to be bent out of shape by the existance of the stuff.  I
don't think T took this sufficiently into account.

On the death in generation thing:
Never used it -- never had the patience to re-roll some players character.
Always house-ruled around it.

Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:10:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Rob Prior's Trading System

On 25 Jun 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> Actually, this was deliberate.  Some goods are more common (eg. wheat in
> Canada, coal in Newcastle...) and I wanted to somehow reflect this in the
> table.  Personally, I would be inclined to put most of the obscenely
> profitable goods out on the ends of the tables, just to keep them uncommon.

Ah, okay.  Besides, I guess it wouldn't be that bad if a separate table 
was determined for each region on high population worlds (as you suggest 
in your trading system), so that no table would use more than four or 
five dice.

> Another option, which I tried and discarded, just use three levels of
> variety:
> 
> Lo-population worlds got 1D
> Mod-population worlds got 2D
> Hi-population worlds got 3D
> 
> But I felt that this didn't adequately reflect the sheer size of a high
> population economy.

True.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:10:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Death during Character Generation

Tom Ellis wrote:

>I use 100 for a baseline if players live in a high stellar type society,
>about 200 for pure Vilani (admittedly rare in 1100).

What about the Solomani?  As far as I remember, and this is from a long 
time back 10+ years, the Solomani were masters of genetic manipulation, 
far more sophisticated than the Imperium in this aspect.  If I remember 
this point right, could the Solomani effectively lengthen their life 
span far beyond the human norm.  Much like Anagath-B.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #160
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 25 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 161

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Virus by Email
         2. Re: Death during Character Generation
         3. Re: Surface Area on Airframe hulls
         4. Re: 20 thoughts on virus
         5. "It's a GAME, dammit!"
         6. Arguing over minutia
         7. Re: Death, taxes, and traveller
         8. Re: Pirates and what the Navy is for..
         9. Re: Death during Character Generation
        10. Re: TNE 
        11. Re: New QSD Design -- Bulk Freighter
        12. Re: Death during Character Generation
        13. Re: 20 thoughts on virus

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:11:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Larry Hadley wrote:

> 1) There is _no_ version of Word for OS/2
> 2) It's not a Virus, it's a Trojan; an entirely different kettle of fish.
> 3) It still won't work on _all_ systems, simply because it *requires* a

AH.  Someone in the know.  Thanks for the clarification.

> special software component to work. Remember, Virus can infect *any*
> computer, a plainly ridiculous assumption - which is my whole point.

Well, then.  Its simple.  Virus proves Lamarckian theory (if you need an
extra arm, grow it.  He was the less than successful precursur to Darwin).

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:14:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Death during Character Generation

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:

> Actually, without considering artificial or cloned organ replacements, it
> seems that the max will be around 100 to 150, and that is just extended
> life, aging still sets in at around the same time in terms of lost
> physical capacity, etc.

Really?  I'm not up on this stuff, obviously.  Still, one would hope 
that, in the Far Future (where virii can hop from one computer to 
another, maintaining conciousness without hardware to execute on, etc. 
etc.) life would be extended a bit more than that!  But, if that's the 
"planned obscelecence" built into the human machine, that's the way it 
is.  Hmm.

> I use 100 for a baseline if players live in a high stellar type society,
> about 200 for pure Vilani (admittedly rare in 1100).

I started out using 200, but the players pointed out the Aging table and 
what it implies, so I dropped that.  (This was 'way back when, before I 
took control of my game from the rule books[G].)

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:15:38 -0700
Subject: Re: Surface Area on Airframe hulls

James Lindsay wrote:
> 
>I was just curious why there is a Surface Area multiplier for hulls 
>equipped with an Airframe hull?  Wouldn't the extra area gained be 
>required as a lifting surface, leaving the usable surface area (for 
>weapons, sensors, etc.) the same?  Being somewhat new to FF&S (and its 
>grandsons QSDS and SSDS), I'm discovering little things every day.

This is a good question.  Let me look it up...  According to FF&S there 
is no difference, wonder why.  There's more internal structure and more 
material needed.  I guess it was decided that for the sake of simplicity 
they'd just leave it the way it is.  I mean the external surface area 
would vary upon personal design astetics, wing configurations etc.

Generally speaking there's plenty of room on the outside of a ship for 
anything you want to put on there.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:20:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: 20 thoughts on virus

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> Rather than quoting a bunch of text and sending a reply, I'll just post my
> personal take on Virus.
> 
> A few points need to be taken:
> 
> 1. Virus is sentient.

  Irrelevant.

> 2. Current computer Viruses (or is it Viri? :) can only take effect when
> operated on, but by definition, a sentient virus could decide when it took
> effect.

  Nope. A Virus is a computer program, doesn't matter if it's sentient or
not it's still just a computer program. Computer programs MUST be executed
- - there is *NO* other way.

  Explain how Virus takes control of a computer simply by "willing" it.

  I'm sentient, yet I must still obey all the rules of computer
programming when operating a computer. I fail to see what sentience has to
do with this.

> 3. Virus gained sentience in a research station while connected to a vast
> database.
> 
> 4. The above mentioned research station was near the core of the Imperium.
> The records in the database would have been the most extensive in the Imperium.
 
  Irrelevant.

> 5. The above mentioned Virus would have had the capeability to infect any
> other computer system it came into contact with that it had the opportunity
> to study about.

  Not enough. There are many cases in published material where Virus
simply invaded with no attempt to learn about the system, it is also
implied in many places that Virus became sentient only after mutating.

> 6. All transponders (not just Imperial/human ships, but all ships travelling 
> in the Imperium) had a version of the Virus developed above.  
>
> 7. The Virus in the above Transponders would have to be able to interface 
> with the alien computer systems as well as with the human ones.  

  Yes - it *would* have to, that's one of the reason's this whole scenario
stinks.

> 8. Each time Virus is transmitted, the new starin is somewhat different in 
> make up than the originator, and it is an entirely new "creature."  

   Irrelevant.

> 9. the "bad virus" released from Lucan's research lab would have combined 
> with the existing transponder virus to form a new creature.  

  Irrelevant.

> 10. This new creature would be able to interact both with it's new 
> environment, and with it's old transponder unit.  

  Huh?

> 11. As a sentient creture, it could learn from its past.  

  Irrelevant.

> 12. The virus would learn that it could only infect a similar computer 
> structure through communications and sensors (which would be run through
> computers or else why to you use a computer multiplier on the electronics 
> crew figures).  

  Nope. See my discussion with Derek - sensors make absolutely NO sense as
vectors. Any attempt to try and rationlize this is doomed.

> 13.  The virus would know that it could only infect foreign computer systems 
> if it A: knew the system, or B: used the transponder.  

> 14. Many Vargr ships would use a similar sturcture and system as the 
> Imperium from which it took much equipment (in the form of raiding).  

> 15. The Hiver and Aslan both were occasional trading partners with the 
> Imperium, and their ships would have had transponders.  

  D.E.M, otherwise irrelevant to this discussion.

> 16. The Solomani and the Imperium traded sectors so often that they would 
> have wasted a lot of time if they couldn't interface each others equipment 
> directly.  Not to mention the first axiom of war, "Know your enemy!"  

  Define "directly". This still doesn't explain the ease of Virus taking
over communications and force feeding code into a foreign computer and
making that code execute. Security issues are well-understood now, why
would they be less so in the future?

> 17.  The variety in the Aslan and the Technical expertise in the Hiver would 
> have slowed the progression of virus in their areas (a known fact).  

  Then why couldn't Imperial expertise stop the Virus? The Imperium was
the *leader* in high-tech!

> 18. If you doubt the similarity of the computer systems, think of the basis 
> for much of the technology, Grandfather.  Much of the technological 
> developments discovered after the "finding" of the jump drives by the major 
> races would be developed on the basis of the technology Gramps left behind 
> which would be similar.  

  Irrellevant. Grandfather "left" nothing behind for his "children" to
find, he seeded worlds period. Any tech left over was left by pure
accident.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:24:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: "It's a GAME, dammit!"

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 gsw@aloft.att.com wrote:
> But then again, so what? It's only a game, right? Besides, only the
> military would be capable of such a gross foul-up as letting the
> Deyo transponders have "trusted" access to all systems when there
> are three levels of trusted systems between the refrigerator door
> switch and the light. :-) :-) :-)

  Yep, it's only a game. I've let this go (well before I joined this
mailing list) because Virus was plainly a plot device, but this thread has
me seeing red! People are just so darned DENSE here.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:28:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Arguing over minutia

I'm sorry for arguing about the Virus.  As was said, it doesn't really 
matter anyway.  If you like the virus, that's great and it 
doesn't hurt me.  

It's so easy to see somone making a mistake, like including an 
erroneous assumption in his or her argument, and say, "No, that's not 
right.  I'll post a message with the correct information."  Then you go 
on to elaborate, and before you know it you're in the thick of an argument.

On the on hand, yes, it's good to be critics of the game we love.  Why?  
Because that opens the door to improvements (by the makers, third 
parties, and /us/).  But when it gets beyond the "here's a problem, 
here's what I see wrong with it, let's fix it" stage to "dammit, I'm 
right and you're wrong and you'd better admit it" stage, it's gone too 
far.  I've got to be on guard for that sort of thinking better than I 
have been.  

Thankfully, I don't think the Virus discussion has gotten to that stage.  
At least, I didn't feel that way abou it yet.  But it was going there.  
[sigh]

I'll try harder to hold off next time.  Especially in discussing the good 
and bad points of TNE!  (Hopefully, the discussion of TNE can be held to 
what sort of things would be good to see in T4 and which wouldn't.  Is 
that possible?  Yeesh.)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:46:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Death, taxes, and traveller

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Les Howie wrote:

> Enh, well, sort of: I'm not sure that the average age of "death by old age
> with only minor complications" has really increased since the biblical 70,
> 80 if you're tough.  All the reasons for dying earlier of something else
> have been sort of pushed back, however.

Didn't some of the biblical characters (Adam & Eve, Noah, Methuselah) 
live much longer?  I thought the premise was that humans were constructed 
to live for a long, long time (some say forever), but the "fall from 
Eden" episode resulted in shorter and shorter life-spans.  But I digress...

> Which is beside the point  -- you can posit anything, traveller having
> Anagathics as the out.  I've always suspected that T anagathics were
> modelled of Booster Spice from Larry Niven's known spice: openly available,
> but rare and awfully expensive.  Niven glances at some of the implication,
> like Louis Wu's surprise at the risk implicit in Ringworld architecture and
> contrasting it with human conservatism brought on by the prospect of extream
> old age.  

We never did use anagathics.  It just never came up.  'course, that could 
be because characters tended to die too soon to worry about it in my 
campaigns (not that I'm a sadistic referee...the players just tended 
toward violent characters, and that eventually resulted in dead 
characters...ie, you can only be lucky for so long!:).

> Its got to have an effect on societies.  No matter what the cost, lots of
> people are going to be bent out of shape by the existance of the stuff.  I
> don't think T took this sufficiently into account.

True.  Anagathics would be treated like psionics in reverse: everyone 
would want it, and would be insanely jealous of those who had access to 
the drug.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:52:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Pirates and what the Navy is for..

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> One quick thing in the whole Yugo/Pirates thread:
> 
> What do you think your Marine PCs were doing on those raid missions anyway?
> The Mission Statement for the Imperial Navy probably boils down to:  Keep
> commerce and communications flowing.

Makes sense to me.


[snipped scenario of how this might work out]

> This is good from three points:
> 
> 1>  The Imperium looks good to the local populace
> 
> 2>  The CruRon and Marines got some good training, not to mention a live
> fire out of it.
> 
> 3>  The planet gets the money flowing again.

Which brings up something I've been wondering for quite some time.  Is 
there any mention anywhere in all the materials for Traveller of how the 
Imperium makes money?  What sort of taxes do they levy?  I'd imagine 
they'd at least levy some sort of trade tax, since that's the activity 
they seem most interested in.  If so, then your reason #3 would be VERY 
important to them indeed.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:52:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Death during Character Generation

>> > Similarly, four terms was the average for my campaigns...
>> >
>> > -Joe
>>
>> It was pretty average in the games I played too.  You'd just get those
>> one or two player's who'd keep going and going.
>
>It's the ability (for better or worse, depending on RP ability) to play a
>Captain Picard right out of the box.  Anagathics was probably the worst
>thing to ever happen to character creation.

My average in the campaign I'm running now is about 40.  However, I do have
one annyoing player with a Grand Admiral with maybe every conceivable skill,
etc. and hordes of cash (thinking of getting rid of him).

In regard to Anagathics, I never even gave my players the option of getting
them during character generation, I just ignored it personally.

Peter Miller


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
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*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
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*************************************************************************


------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:52:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TNE 

>So far, my feelings on the rules in general are:
>
>1)  Geez, that's a lot of rules.  Almost a page and a half on initiative 
>alone!!  Complete?  Yes, but daunting.

Ya, I know what you mean.  I've had it for a couple of weeks and haven't
gone through EVERYTHING yet.

>2)  I love the section on "Using the Rules," especially the first three 
>paragraphs.  This sort of sentiment should be included in all 
>role-playing games.

Definitelu.  My sentiments exactly.

>3)  Gadzooks, the editing was bad.  Just reading a few sections, I've 
>found a lot of grammatical errors and typos.  Now, I'm not a fanatic 
>about this.  Professionally published novels, with distribution far 
>greater than any RPG, have errors in them.  And, this is a BIG book.  
>Still, I hope IG does a better job of editing.

I found the editing incredible after buying MegaTraveller.  However, taking
a look back through my CT Black Books, I can tell the difference.  The
editing in CT just far outweighs both TNE and MT.  I also hope IG aims for a
'no-errors' product.

>4)  Characters:  
>
>	a) Lots of classes...that's fine by me.  Like the rest of 
>the book, it just adds to the task before the beginning referee.  But, if 
>you've already got it in your mind to make a 400 page rule book, might as 
>well have plenty of classes.

I like the amount of characters, which then definitely lends itself to a
non-military campaign.  However, some of them I do find not useful at all
(ie. Athlete, etc.).  OThers though I hope are in a T4 supplement perhaps
(ie. Journalist, Civil Engineer).

>	b) The character generation process is workable, I don't knock 
>that.  But I still like the old system better.

It's okay I agree.  But my favourite generation system is the Advanced ones
for each MT career (Marine, Navy, Scout, Merchant)

>	c)  Nice skill list.

I found it a lot easier to swallow than the massive MT list, but with more
options than the CT list.

>
>	d)  The characteristics are screwy.  Agility instead of 
>dexterity...fine.  But adding charisma?  And the whole idea of putting 
>Social Standing off to the side is rather silly.  Were they afraid of 
>making it seven basic characteristics (or eight, with psionics)?  I admit 
>I don't understand the thinking behind this.  Maybe it will come clear as 
>I read further.

Personally, I completely ignored that. Dexterity and agility, they're
synonyms so I didn't see the point, perhaps they wanted to be as far from
AD&D as possible?  Agreed on SOC, I didn't see the point of the '-' before it.

>	e)  I could do without the text prior to the generation 
>information for each character type.  It seems hokey to me.  

I could either do without it, or have a better, detailed text giving
adventure suggestions, personality types, possible\example backgrounds, etc.

>5)  NPC's:  They give the GM a way to randomly determine 
>NPC personalities (using a standard deck of cards), but then they make a 
>hand-wave when it comes to NPC appearance generation.  Okay, NPC 
>motivations are more important than their looks.  But, again, if you're 
>trying to make a very complete RPG (as they obviously were, with that 1.5 
>page initiative section, among others), why not throw in a table for NPC 
>appearance generaton, with modifiers for motivation/personality type.

I like the card deck approach, especially if it's necessary on the spur of
the moment.  But, a table or two would have also been good.

Peter Miller


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:01:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: New QSD Design -- Bulk Freighter

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Tom Miller wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> My first attempt at a QSD design, and only my third at ANY starship (I've
> done a CT design and a FFSLite design).  
> 
> The Bulk Freighter is somewhat similar to the Yugo transports suggested in
> earlier posts.  However, I like the idea of a somewhat volitile Imperial
> core, even in the best of times, so I have made this freighter armed with a
> civilian battery, and some sandcasters.
> 
> Please give me your comments, and corrections, as, like I said this is my
> first attempt at a QSD design.  Thanks.

Neat! A YugoSuperFreighter. :)

Some comments, based on recent clarifications by Guy Garnett:

> BULK FREIGHT CARRIER
> 
> Tons  4000		Volume 3823.2		Cost 305.052 MCr

'twould be nice to know what shape of hull you used.  With the Huge List 
of Hulls out now, it's not easy to guess.  What shape is it?

> Crew    15		    (No Passengers at all)
> Cargo 3500!		Controls Std		Tech Level 11
> 
> 09 Size				01 Jump
> 00 Fire Control 		01 G-Rating\Thruster Plates
> 01 Battery  1/0/0/0		.25 Power (is that correct?)


				Yes, that's correct.


> 00 Battery  0/0/0/0		00 Meson 
> 00 Battery  0/0/0/0		03 (72) Sand Caster
> 00 Battery  0/0/0/0             00 Nuclear Dampers
> 00 Battery  0/0/0/0             A0 P2 J0 Sensors
> 00 Battery  0/0/0/0		
> 				00 Armour		20 Structure

No need to list all the "00 Battery 0/0/0/0"'s.  I'm afraid I started this 
trend by listing them all in my own designs.  Guy pointed out that was 
unnecessary clutter.

Also, the fuel rating seems to be missing.

> The Bulk Freight Carrier is a monstrous beast of a ship.  It is meant for
> long-haul large shipments, and it similar to the large supercarriers of late
> 20th century Terra.
> 
> The ship's crew complement of 15 is comprised of: 5 Engineers, 2
> Electronics, 2 Manuver, 4 Gunners, 2 Command.  There is a bridge, in which
> the workstations for everyone but Engineers reside.  The Captain has a large
> stateroom, and his Executive officer has a small stateroom.  The rest of the
> crew are relegated to bunks.
> 
> The ship carries enough fuel for several years of operating capacity without
> stops, and is frequently sent on that sort of long-haul.

Enough fuel for /years/ of operation!  How many jumps?  Wow!

> Note:  The price of the ship takes into account the 25% discount on QSDS designs

Thanks for sharing your design with us.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:15:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Death during Character Generation

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:

> Tom Ellis wrote:
> 
> >I use 100 for a baseline if players live in a high stellar type society,
> >about 200 for pure Vilani (admittedly rare in 1100).
> 
> What about the Solomani?  As far as I remember, and this is from a long 
> time back 10+ years, the Solomani were masters of genetic manipulation, 
> far more sophisticated than the Imperium in this aspect.  If I remember 
> this point right, could the Solomani effectively lengthen their life 
> span far beyond the human norm.  Much like Anagath-B.

Well, the Vilani were known to "naturally" (prob thanks to the Ancients
and the lack of compatible pathogens on Vland) have long lifespans, noted
in "cannon" as being much longer than terran norms.

The Solomani certainly had a good handle on genetic engineering, but I
never saw any note on it used for longevity purposes.  That wouls be a
much higher tech level thing than cloning even, tinkering with our base
code as it were.

Solomani , maybe 100 years in a High Stellar setting.  Longer with
artificial organs, longer still with anagathics.



> 
> Derek Stanley
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 02:40:58 GMT
Subject: Re: 20 thoughts on virus

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:20:34 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

> Irrelevant (about a dozen times)

> > 2. Current computer Viruses (or is it Viri? :) can only take effect when
> > operated on, but by definition, a sentient virus could decide when it took
> > effect.
> 
>   Nope. A Virus is a computer program, doesn't matter if it's sentient or
> not it's still just a computer program. Computer programs MUST be executed
> - there is *NO* other way.

By *today's* standards, yes.  But what the hell is holographically-linked
controls?  And synaptic-linked computers?  You can't explain how things will
work 3,000 years from now with this kind of techno-babble based on today's
assumptions.

>   I'm sentient, yet I must still obey all the rules of computer
> programming when operating a computer. I fail to see what sentience has to
> do with this.

I would imagine it would have something to do with the fact that Virus occupies
a computer like we occupy 3D space.  You, yourself, are talking about
manipulating the goings-on inside a computer using an alpha-numeric keyboard and
little else.  *Your* consciousness is not imposed on that computer.

> > 12. The virus would learn that it could only infect a similar computer 
> > structure through communications and sensors (which would be run through
> > computers or else why to you use a computer multiplier on the electronics 
> > crew figures).  
> 
>   Nope. See my discussion with Derek - sensors make absolutely NO sense as
> vectors. Any attempt to try and rationlize this is doomed.
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If you start talking like that, you'll have to explain everything else the
Traveller universe takes for granted.  Perhaps you'd like to take a crack at
explaining Gravitics or Psionics using today's theories?  They've  been
Traveller 'canon' since day-one.  Perhaps Virus is minutely psionic?

> > 5. The above mentioned Virus would have had the capeability to infect any
> > other computer system it came into contact with that it had the opportunity
> > to study about.

>   Not enough. There are many cases in published material where Virus
> simply invaded with no attempt to learn about the system,

Maybe it was already familiar with the system.

>   Irrellevant. Grandfather "left" nothing behind for his "children" to
> find, he seeded worlds period. Any tech left over was left by pure
> accident.

There's that word again!  Are you so sure?  I've never read anything published
that states this fact.

As I posted a few days ago...

"This type of arguement can be used to explain almost everything in the
Traveller universe.  It is only when this information falls within someone's
area of expertise when things start to fall apart (you obviously know a great
deal about computers).

"At first, Virus infiltrated and destroyed the computer systems at the Imperial
core.  It did this relatively easily since it was, in fact, created inside a
computer on a research station belonging to Lucan's faction.  At this point,
Virus could use information in surviving Imperial computers (that discussed how
the computers of its neighbours functioned) to modify itself to infiltrate and
take over those systems.  Virus might have even built prototypes of these
computers for testing.  Virus' intelligence would have been off the scale... who
knows what it was capable of conceaving.

"Perhaps some of these vessels surrendered to the Vargr, Aslan, Hivers, K'kree,
etc. allowing them to download Virus and begin the spread throughout each race's
region of space.  Multiple attempts might have had to have been made, but by
simply surrendering (instead of trying to force-feed Virus into the enemy's
computers), these attempts might have gone more-or-less unnoticed.  All it would
take is one or two greedy corsair captains (who would be more than happy to lay
claim to a drifting derelict)."




------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #161
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 26 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 162

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: New QSD Design -- Bulk Freighter
         2. Bulk Freighter QSDS -- Corrected Design
         3. Sylean Medium Warship -- QSD Design
         4. Virus, Traveller, Reality
         5. Hopes for T4
         6. Re: 20 thoughts on virus
         7. Re: Virus, Traveller, Reality
         8. Re: Virus, Traveller, Reality
         9. Re: TNE 
        10. Re: Pirates and what the Navy is for..
        11. Re: Virus, Traveller, Reality
        12. Re: 20 thoughts on virus
        13. Re: Virus, Traveller, Reality
        14. TNE and the RC

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:49:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: New QSD Design -- Bulk Freighter

>Neat! A YugoSuperFreighter. :)

I must admit, I got the original idea from the Yugoclasses :)

>Some comments, based on recent clarifications by Guy Garnett:
>
>> BULK FREIGHT CARRIER
>> 
>> Tons  4000		Volume 3823.2		Cost 305.052 MCr
>
>'twould be nice to know what shape of hull you used.  With the Huge List 
>of Hulls out now, it's not easy to guess.  What shape is it?

Woops!!!  I meant to include this in the writing at the bottom after the
USD.  For interests sake it's an unstreamlined Box.

>No need to list all the "00 Battery 0/0/0/0"'s.  I'm afraid I started this 
>trend by listing them all in my own designs.  Guy pointed out that was 
>unnecessary clutter.

I wondered about this, but decided to do it just to make sure.

>Also, the fuel rating seems to be missing.
>
>Enough fuel for /years/ of operation!  How many jumps?  Wow!

Well, I'll get the fuel rating, and post the corrected design.  Perhaps my
calculations were, wrong, but that's what I *think* it is.

I'll get the corrected version done in a minute.

Peter Miller


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:49:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Bulk Freighter QSDS -- Corrected Design

Bulk Carrier Freighter
- ---------------------------------------------------------
Tons  4000 (U Box)	Volume 3823.2		Cost 305.052 MCr
Crew    15		    (No Passengers at all)
Cargo 3500		Controls Std		Tech Level 11
- ---------------------------------------------------------
09 Size				 01 Jump
00 Fire Control		         01 G-Rating\Thruster Plates
01 Battery  1/0/0/0		.25 Power 
		                144 Fuel Rating 
                                 00 Meson 
		                 03 (72) Sand Caster
                                 00 Nuclear Dampers
                                 A0 P2 J0 Sensors
		            	 00 Armour	20 Structure
- ---------------------------------------------------------
The Bulk Freight Carrier is a monstrous beast of a ship. 
It is meant for long-haul large shipments, and it similar
to the large supercarriers of late 20th century Terra.

The ship's crew complement of 15 is comprised of: 5
Engineers, 2 Electronics, 2 Manuver, 4 Gunners, 2 Command. 
There is a bridge, in which the workstations for everyone
but Engineers reside.  The Captain has a large stateroom,
and his Executive officer has a small stateroom.  The rest
of the crew are relegated to bunks.

The ship is meant for long haul expeditions, and taking into account it's
extremely slow jump drive, it is meant for journeys which take a long
time as well.

Note:  The price of the ship takes into account the 25%
discount on QSDS designs
       The fuel consumption for the power plant (the only thing that needs
fuel on the whole ship) is 10.7\year.  Therefore, I figure 144\10.7 = 13.45
which is almost 14 years of operating without refueling!

Comments are welcome!

Peter Miller


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:49:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Sylean Medium Warship -- QSD Design

Sylean Medium Warship

Tons  800 (U Sphere)        Volume 724.2                Cost 289.275 MCr
Crew   83                     (NO PASSENGERS)
Cargo 450                   Controls Fib\Bridge         Tech Level 12

08 Size                         02 Jump
04 Fire Control Rating          02 G-Rating\Thruster Plates
06 Mil. Laser 5/3/3/0          .94 Power Rating
08 Mil. Laser 6/4/5/2           20 Fuel Rating 
07 Mil. Laser 8/7/4/3           00 Meson
02 Missiles - 10 (8 MFD)        05 (150) Sandcaster
                                02 Damper
                                A10 P4 J10 Sensors
                                60 Armour       14 Structure

The Sylean Med. Warship is a small vessel meant to be use din convoys.
However, despite it's size, it is packed with weapons onto an unstreamlined
Spherical hull.

The crew work on a bridge (except engineers) and the Captain sleeps in a
large stateroom.  THe rest of the crew sleep in bunks. 

The fuel carried is enough to last the ship 2.5 years without refueling
(20\8.1 = 2.45).

Comments are welcome!

Peter Miller


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:52:34 -0300
Subject: Virus, Traveller, Reality

Some folks have written some fairly coherent things on the "impossibilty" of
a TNE style virus. Yup, I think you're right.

On the other hand, according to my university physics (of which I still
retain a few shreds), FTL travel is impossible; Any explanation we come up
with for contragravity is probably not going to survive a barrage of
thermodynamics; and "reactionless thrusters" -- give me strength.

Agrueing over which hook you're willing to suspend your personal disbeleaf
on to save the plausability of projections of a future history set 3000
years into the it-aint-gonna-happen-that-way from now can get to be a bit
much after a while.

Maybe some new Einstein will reconcile FTL and relativity.  Maybe some
quantum gravity genious will unify electro-magnatism and gravity.  Maybe the
Third Imperium and all its neighbours are dumb-ass stupid enough to REGULATE
one uniform, cross application, cross technology computing architecture JUST
TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR THE VIRUS TO WORK. Who the f*** knows?

Grump. I've been working too hard. VIRUS has TaKen oVer My IMpLants (*&D(* DYKH

destruct

Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:29:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Hopes for T4

Yeah, I know.  It's too late to influence the main T4 book.  

When I was younger, I'd sit and dream and hope what my Christmas presents 
would be, even after they were under the tree (okay, I still do 
this...grin).  It was too late for my wishes to have any influence, but I 
still spent time wishing.  I find myself doing the same thing in regards 
to T4, especially now that I have TNE as an additional source of ideas.

Here's a wish list for T4, including only those things I don't know about it:

1)  I hope the systems are easy to use.  I love complexity, but I love 
have a choice more.  The main system (ie, the T4 book) should be as 
simple as possible.  Complexity can come later.
	The TNE and MT task systems are too complex.  They both start out 
with simple premises, then add on gobs of extras.  Something simple like 
using a different number of dice, or better yet different dice (ie, D4, 
D6, D10, etc.) to reflect difficulty would be nice, instead of requiring 
additional calculatons.   Figuring out the base difficulty then 
multiplying by the difficulty factor isn't necessary.  Here's an example 
of how my system might work:
	You need to do a task...say, firing a pistol.  Dexterity is your 
controlling characteristic, and you have a dex of 8.  You have Pistol-2, 
so you add that in, giving you a total of 10.  You roll 2D6 for routine 
tasks (with 12 as an automatic failure), 3D6 for difficult tasks, and 4D6 
for formidable tasks.  Or, 1D6, 1D12, and 1D20.  Or whatever.  Highest 
roll possible is always failure.   Otherwise any roll less than or equal 
to the required is a success, others are failures.  If you want to add in 
mishaps (or consider dangerous tasks/catastrophic failures), then add a 
second roll on failure.  If failure occurs again, then it was 
catastrophic or a mishap or whatever.  With uncertain tasks, have the GM 
roll as well (like with the DGP/MT task system), in secret.
	Personally, I wouldn't even bother with mishaps/catastrophic 
failures, and I would make all tasks uncertain by having the GM do the 
rolling (if it is uncertain, the GM can give whatever information is 
appropriate to the player, otherwise reveal the result directly).  Keep 
it simple.

2)  Once again, I hope the editing is top-notch.  Doesn't have to be 
perfect, but keep the errata down to 1/4 page per 100 pages.

3)  The world building data in TNE (derived from World Builder's 
Handbook, which was derived from Grand Survey and Grand Census) is 
great.  Again, the basic book should keep everything simple, but I'd like 
to see this topic revisited in this much detail in a supplement for T4.

4)  I hope the player's info (character generation, skills, combat, 
starships, equipment, starship economics, starship combat, etc.), the 
referee's info (world building, animal encounters, how to be a referee, 
etc.), and the setting (what is the Imperium, the history, an 
introductory adventure or three, etc.) are kept separate in the book.  Three 
distinct sections.

5)  I hope they provide lots of forms.  I love that about Traveller.

6)  I hope the tables (and forms!) are kept at the end of each section, 
rather than being intersperced with the text where space is available.  
It's nice to have the Aging table next to the text on Aging, but it seems 
it never works out where that happens with all tables.  They end up 
putting table X three pages after the text about it, due to the large 
number of tables in the section.  So, put 'em all in the back of the 
section they are treated in.


That's enough for now, eh? :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:30:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: 20 thoughts on virus

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, James Lindsay wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:20:34 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:
> > > 2. Current computer Viruses (or is it Viri? :) can only take effect when
> > > operated on, but by definition, a sentient virus could decide when it took
> > > effect.
> > 
> >   Nope. A Virus is a computer program, doesn't matter if it's sentient or
> > not it's still just a computer program. Computer programs MUST be executed
> > - there is *NO* other way.
> 
> By *today's* standards, yes.  But what the hell is holographically-linked
> controls?  And synaptic-linked computers?  You can't explain how things will
> work 3,000 years from now with this kind of techno-babble based on today's
> assumptions.

   By *any* standards - that's what an operating system *is*. 

   If you want to assume that computer security is nil (against all logic)
you go right ahead, myself I'll do what makes sense.

   Holographic linked controls use 3D representations and
fully-programmable control representations to improve the human machine
(ergonomic) factor, and thus improve the efficiency of the interface.

   Synaptic linked take that one step further with a direct neural
connection.

> >   I'm sentient, yet I must still obey all the rules of computer
> > programming when operating a computer. I fail to see what sentience has to
> > do with this.
> 
> I would imagine it would have something to do with the fact that Virus occupies
> a computer like we occupy 3D space.  You, yourself, are talking about
> manipulating the goings-on inside a computer using an alpha-numeric keyboard and
> little else.  *Your* consciousness is not imposed on that computer.

  Neither is Virus, unless it gets executed.

> > > 12. The virus would learn that it could only infect a similar computer 
> > > structure through communications and sensors (which would be run through
> > > computers or else why to you use a computer multiplier on the electronics 
> > > crew figures).  
> > 
> >   Nope. See my discussion with Derek - sensors make absolutely NO sense as
> > vectors. Any attempt to try and rationlize this is doomed.
>            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> If you start talking like that, you'll have to explain everything else the
> Traveller universe takes for granted.  Perhaps you'd like to take a crack at
> explaining Gravitics or Psionics using today's theories?  They've  been
> Traveller 'canon' since day-one.  Perhaps Virus is minutely psionic?

  Again, irrelevant.
 
  What has the rest of the Traveller universe have to do with Virus? My
*only* objection to Virus is how it defies logic, and makes it impossible
to suspend disbelief, a factor *critical* to the success of an s/f story
or game.

  The other stuff, despite problems, are much easier to swallow than
Virus.

  I might add that Virus would be MUCH more believable if they'd just do
one simple thing - ADD QUALIFIERS. The hardest thing to swallow about
Virus is the fact that they assume that ALL computers - from the TL7 IBM
360 all the way up to the AI TL15 Imperial mainframe - are vulnerable to
it. Bullsh!t.

  If they said "All IMPERIAL computers" or "All TL-15 computers" then I'd
go for it, but the lack of qualifications (along with a lot of plainly
nonsensical stuff like sensors being vectors) makes Virus a joke. 

  As someone else said, it can be mathematically PROVEN that some
computers are IMMUNE to viral infection.

> >   Irrellevant. Grandfather "left" nothing behind for his "children" to
> > find, he seeded worlds period. Any tech left over was left by pure
> > accident.
> 
> There's that word again!  Are you so sure?  I've never read anything published
> that states this fact.

  Check out the MT library data, and "Secret of the Ancients" also data in
"Twilight's Peak".


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:35:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Virus, Traveller, Reality

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Les Howie wrote:
> Agrueing over which hook you're willing to suspend your personal disbeleaf
> on to save the plausability of projections of a future history set 3000
> years into the it-aint-gonna-happen-that-way from now can get to be a bit
> much after a while.

   ...which is why I've decided to Take Mercy on the innocent and stop
this thread before it get's any warmer. I'm seeing red, and I'm not in any
shape to pursue a rational discussion right now.

   If the rest of you want to continue without me go ahead, I said
everything that matters and I'd just be repeating myself from now on
anyways. So if the testosterone-challenged types need to get the last word
in, here's your chance.

   Have a nice one!

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:40:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Virus, Traveller, Reality

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Les Howie wrote:

> Some folks have written some fairly coherent things on the "impossibilty" of
> a TNE style virus. Yup, I think you're right.

No, I'm not right!  It is possible.  And if you think it isn't, then . . .

Oops. Got caught up in the argument for a minute there. :)


> On the other hand, according to my university physics (of which I still
> retain a few shreds), FTL travel is impossible; Any explanation we come up
> with for contragravity is probably not going to survive a barrage of
> thermodynamics; and "reactionless thrusters" -- give me strength.

I happen to know from personal experience that all of these things are 
possible.  The aliens that abducted me last night showed me how, right 
before they flew to a wheat field and drew a design in the crop.


> Agrueing over which hook you're willing to suspend your personal disbeleaf
> on to save the plausability of projections of a future history set 3000
> years into the it-aint-gonna-happen-that-way from now can get to be a bit
> much after a while.
> 
> Maybe some new Einstein will reconcile FTL and relativity.  Maybe some
> quantum gravity genious will unify electro-magnatism and gravity.  Maybe the
> Third Imperium and all its neighbours are dumb-ass stupid enough to REGULATE
> one uniform, cross application, cross technology computing architecture JUST
> TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR THE VIRUS TO WORK. Who the f*** knows?

Hehehehehe.  Too true.  

> Grump. I've been working too hard. VIRUS has TaKen oVer My IMpLants (*&D(* DYKH
> 
> destruct

Thanks for the laugh, Les. :)  (Hey, if I can't laugh at myself . . .)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:47:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: TNE 

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Tom Miller wrote:

> I found the editing incredible after buying MegaTraveller.  However, taking

Definitely.  MT had horrid editing.  Sad, really.

> I like the amount of characters, which then definitely lends itself to a
> non-military campaign.  However, some of them I do find not useful at all
> (ie. Athlete, etc.).  OThers though I hope are in a T4 supplement perhaps
> (ie. Journalist, Civil Engineer).

Hopefully, if IG doesn't produce such, some third party will.

> I like the card deck approach, especially if it's necessary on the spur of
> the moment.  But, a table or two would have also been good.

And the card deck stuck with another aspect of CT: all materials were 
things you'd commonly have around the house.  No weird dice, just the 
six-siders most people have and which are available at any drugstore, 
home-made counters suggested for use rather than an emphasis on figures, 
etc. 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 23:30:37 -0600
Subject: Re: Pirates and what the Navy is for..

On 06/25/96 at 08:52 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
said:

>Which brings up something I've been wondering for quite some time. 
>Is  there any mention anywhere in all the materials for Traveller of
>how the  Imperium makes money?  What sort of taxes do they levy?  I'd
>imagine  they'd at least levy some sort of trade tax, since that's
>the activity  they seem most interested in.  If so, then your reason
>#3 would be VERY  important to them indeed.  

I don't recall seeing anything about that in the rules..can't remember
anything from the journals either..humm.  Personally, I figured the
Imperium took a cut out of every transaction that went through a
starport.  There was a Imperial agent at every starport, just to make
sure the Emperor got his piece, the Duke got his, the Baron got
his...and maybe a little extra for the agent.  <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:20:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Virus, Traveller, Reality

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Les Howie wrote:

> Agrueing over which hook you're willing to suspend your personal disbeleaf
> on to save the plausability of projections of a future history set 3000
> years into the it-aint-gonna-happen-that-way from now can get to be a bit
> much after a while.

I agree.  Personally speaking, the reason I play Traveller (and various
other RPGs for that matter) is FICTION.  I personally find nothing
intriguing about an RPG based on Wall Street, for instance.  The whole
point of an RPG, IMHO, is to provide opportunities that can NOT be
presented in any way in real life.  In effect, I play Traveller as an
interactive SF novel (how many times have you gotten to the end of a
Heinlein, Cherryh, Gibson, what have you, novel and played out what
happens after the novel ends?  I do it quite a lot.).

While discussing the feasibility of game concepts in real life terms can
provide interesting insights into how to better incorporate it into the
game, one must remember that we are essentially battering around two
different (and in the end, usually unreconcileable, if the amount of
messages I've gotten on these thread is any indication) concepts---those
of (quasi-literary) PLOT DEVICES within the Traveller universe, and actual
concepts in real 1996 life.

Don't get me wrong.  I love arguement just for the sake of argument, but I
think we (myself included) need to keep in mind what we are arguing about:
a fictional game.  So.  My plea is that we keep argueing over all this
stuff, but remember that we are discussing how the elements of the
Traveller universe work, which are necessarily divergent from the
technology we have presently.  Just the gulf of time between the 'now' and
the 'then' sufficiently isolates Traveller.

Traveller is a construction of _a future_ that has developed over the past
couple of decades.  Perhaps we should frame our arguements about how Virus
developed through this wealth of information, and recognize that, as
another list-member already pointed out, things can change a lot in 3000
years.

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 05:55:50 GMT
Subject: Re: 20 thoughts on virus

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:30:15 -0400 (EDT), Larry Hadley wrote:

> > If you start talking like that, you'll have to explain everything else the
> > Traveller universe takes for granted.  Perhaps you'd like to take a crack at
> > explaining Gravitics or Psionics using today's theories?  They've  been
> > Traveller 'canon' since day-one.  Perhaps Virus is minutely psionic?
> 
>   Again, irrelevant.

Up to making challenges and not accepting them?  These two examples were both
firmly rooted in the Traveller universe long before Virus ever was introduced.

>   What has the rest of the Traveller universe have to do with Virus? My
> *only* objection to Virus is how it defies logic, and makes it impossible
> to suspend disbelief, a factor *critical* to the success of an s/f story
> or game.
> 
>   The other stuff, despite problems, are much easier to swallow than
> Virus.

And why is that?  It is because you are highly computer-literate.  Psioncs defy
current logic, as does gravitic technology, but they don't seem to bother you in
the least (I won't even ask about reactionless thrusters).  Please don't
consider me wrong in *my* opinion just because you have privy to certain
information that makes your acceptance of Virus impossible.  Its just a game.
S/F will rely on techno-babble for many years to come.  Do I claim that
Terminator or T2 were bad movies because they rely heavily on unproven (ie:
without *any* scientific basis, period) theories regarding time travel?  All I
(and a few others) have been trying to do is present certain viewpoints that
might make Virus easier to swallow (groan).  This isn't Jyhad.  Please don't try
and take it upon yourself to try and dissuade others from using Virus in their
campaigns because "you know better".

> So if the testosterone-challenged types need to get the last word
> in, here's your chance.

Ok... hope you enjoyed PAGE75.JPG



------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 06:04:01 GMT
Subject: Re: Virus, Traveller, Reality

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:52:34 -0300, Les Howie wrote:

> Grump. I've been working too hard. VIRUS has TaKen oVer My IMpLants (*&D(* DYKH
> 
> destruct

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:20:16 -0700 (PDT), Charles Pratt wrote:

> While discussing the feasibility of game concepts in real life terms can
> provide interesting insights into how to better incorporate it into the
> game, one must remember that we are essentially battering around two
> different (and in the end, usually unreconcileable, if the amount of
> messages I've gotten on these thread is any indication) concepts---those
> of (quasi-literary) PLOT DEVICES within the Traveller universe, and actual
> concepts in real 1996 life.

Bravo!  Someone should put something like this in the "Welcome To TML/XTML"
greeting email.  Hope you're feeling better, Les  8-)

------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:03:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: TNE and the RC

My problem with TNE was simply that I didn't like the setting.  The grand 
and wonderful Imperium is reduced to the near stone age, and "our heros", 
ie the RC, seemed to be the ultimate D-n-D group:  land on a planet, kill 
folks and take their stuff, all in the name of progress and liberation.  

The Regency was an interesting setting and has some possibilities, but as
I see it RC adventures would seem to consist solely of raids on various
dungeon/planets.  I'm not attempting to start a flame war, but am honestly
curious as to what else could be done with the RC setting other than games
that would trouble me morally to either run or play in?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #162
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 26 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 163

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Sylean Medium Warship -- QSD Design
         2. Re: Sylean Medium Warship -- QSD Design
         3. BlahBlahBlah-VIRUS-BlahBlahBlah...
         4. Re: 20 thoughts on virus
         5. Robots in the Imperium (fwd)
         6. Virus Logic
         7. TNE World Building was Re: Hopes for T4

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:14:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Sylean Medium Warship -- QSD Design

 I hate to say this folks, but a 800 ton vehicle is a gunboat at most, NOT
something deserving the title of warship.
 Think about it, the US navy currentley has at least 20 CRUISER class
vessels, and this is from one COUNTRY, the Imperium had 100,000+ worlds!
 Lets face it, there would be at least a thousand Tigress dreadnoughts
floating around.... Let alone the 1.5 odd MILLION cruiser class vessels.

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:24:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Sylean Medium Warship -- QSD Design

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Bri wrote:

>  Think about it, the US navy currentley has at least 20 CRUISER class
 Clarification, a cruiser is about 60,000Dtonne in Traveller.


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 01:49:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BlahBlahBlah-VIRUS-BlahBlahBlah...

Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> did sputter:

[snip]

>    The software in question was Micro$haft Word, and the "virus" was a
> Word macro. Several points:
> 
> 1) There is _no_ version of Word for OS/2

Well, okay, I'm convinced -- Virus couldn't work.  No possible amount of 
handwaving or explanation for TNE's Virus could stand up to such a 
compelling argument.

> 2) It's not a Virus, it's a Trojan; an entirely different kettle of fish.
> 3) It still won't work on _all_ systems, simply because it *requires* a
> special software component to work. Remember, Virus can infect *any*
> computer, a plainly ridiculous assumption - which is my whole point.

And while you're at it:
     "The Titanic is unsinkable."
     "The Maginot Line is impenetrable."
     "If Man were meant to fly, he'd have wings."
...and...
     "The world, around which the universe revolves, is flat."

What I find so patently ridiculous is these people carrying on like 
DISbelieving something is some great intellectual achievement.  I mean, 
so what?  I had just as hard a time swallowing the Virus thingy as anyone 
else, but I've still managed to include it in my Traveller campaign 
without laying awake at night wondering if it's far too "over the top" 
for a proper setting.  I mean, if you think that the concept of a 
machine-based sentience that can move through computing systems like a 
fish through water is too much to deal with, try (*gasp!*) Faster-Than- 
Light Travel.  Now, THERE's something difficult for the contemporary 
scientific mind to accept...

Can we get back to our pointless rock-dropping debate now?

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 18:41:56 +1000
Subject: Re: 20 thoughts on virus

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Larry Hadley wrote:

>   Nope. A Virus is a computer program, doesn't matter if it's sentient or
> not it's still just a computer program. Computer programs MUST be executed
> - there is *NO* other way.
> 
>   Explain how Virus takes control of a computer simply by "willing" it.
> 
>   I'm sentient, yet I must still obey all the rules of computer
> programming when operating a computer. I fail to see what sentience has to
> do with this.

Im sorry, but you are incorect.

The Virus was a scentient creature derived from a lifeformed that evolved 
in the Solomani Rim (Cimbarii [sp??]??). It was a walking computer chip, 
able to manipulate 
electrons and cirturty not unlike the way we use food and nural impulses. 
It was able to replicate by passing its "genetic makeup" through radio 
signals (which the Imperium made very easy by forcing all ships that 
enter its space to have the protovirus lifeform in all of their 
transponders.)

It is like the fact that you can walk into a room and change the way it 
looks by changing the furniture and painting the walls. It could 
manipulate its enviroment. It was as much a computer code as you and I am.


> 
> > 3. Virus gained sentience in a research station while connected to a vast
> > database.
> > 
> > 4. The above mentioned research station was near the core of the Imperium.
> > The records in the database would have been the most extensive in the Imperium.
>  
>   Irrelevant.
> 
> > 5. The above mentioned Virus would have had the capeability to infect any
> > other computer system it came into contact with that it had the opportunity
> > to study about.
> 
>   Not enough. There are many cases in published material where Virus
> simply invaded with no attempt to learn about the system, it is also
> implied in many places that Virus became sentient only after mutating.
> 
> > 6. All transponders (not just Imperial/human ships, but all ships travelling 
> > in the Imperium) had a version of the Virus developed above.  
> >
> > 7. The Virus in the above Transponders would have to be able to interface 
> > with the alien computer systems as well as with the human ones.  
> 
>   Yes - it *would* have to, that's one of the reason's this whole scenario
> stinks.

What stinked was that starships that use to have 1 TL7 computer now have 
3 TL15 (as virus could not invade ships with vacuum tubes!)

> 
> > 8. Each time Virus is transmitted, the new starin is somewhat different in 
> > make up than the originator, and it is an entirely new "creature."  
> 
>    Irrelevant.

Relevent. And the main thrust of the evolving Virus idea.

> 
> > 9. the "bad virus" released from Lucan's research lab would have combined 
> > with the existing transponder virus to form a new creature.  
> 
You also used the word Irrelevent without justifying it. Annoying to say 
the least. 
 

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 18:45:27 +1000
Subject: Robots in the Imperium (fwd)

Being a non-gearhead, but avid Imperial Historian, I was wondering what 
would the state of robotics in Year 0.

We did know they excisted, given that CT Book 8 listed the history of 
robotics  back to before Year 0. What I want to know is what is the social 
climate for robots.

In order to show how, I will make a few definitions:

1. The average TL11 person  has more computing power in a watch than NORAD 
and NASA together today. His "computers" would be so powerful that it would 
give Bill Gates nightmares, sharing data and instructions over a whole 
planetary net.

2. Power is everywhere. From Mr Fusion (tm) to radio signals, to power grids 
in every road and floor, to thermal power and solar power.

Now, to take advantage of this, I design a TL11 robot. I want it to handle 
complex instructions, and perform large and intrictate stuff, like build a 
home or make a tunnel. I could put a Mr Fusion plant and large complex 
copmuter in it. But why do i need to? All I need to do is put an equivelent 
of a Network Computer, able to take large amout of data 
(visiual,tactile,sensor,audio,direct data feed) and send it to a computer 
dedicated to process data for robots. (Companies may set themselves up 
toprovide this as a service, like ISP today, or you can have a central 
computer for your own copreations robots, or even your personal comp which 
has processing space spare). I do not need power, as I can draw more than 
enough from the local power grid, even if it was 2km away (for longer 
distances I may need a radio booster and fusion pack, but for the example 
this robot stays in areas serviced by the computer and power nets).

So , all i need is a small power converter, a relatively small computer and 
a chasie. I then add what i deed, servo's for movement and manipulation, 
sensors, output devices and whatever tools i need (plasma torches, earth 
moving equipment, drills, whatever).

So , In a normal TL11 enviromets, robots are a real cheap proposition, low 
cost to build, great value for money, extreamly veritile, easy to program 
(all you need is a HTML like hook > I need to do this...get the insrtuctions 
from here...do task).

It would also make a design sequence laughingly simple. basic computer, 
servoes, power box, and add what we need on it.

Comments , Flames?

Darryl  


------------------------------

From: marcher@cccp.net (Mark Archer)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:29:17 +0200
Subject: Virus Logic

Hi,
        Sorry to get involved (we got all these Xboat people being told no
TNE and bang the Virus, i thinks its a conspiracy.  It seems to me that is
the world against Mr Warhammer.  I think he agrees to the virus as a plot
device but he quibbles on two points :-

1. How can the Virus use sensors to transmit itself

2. How can alien computers be affected

For 1, I think that FF&S mentions that passive EMS can be used to receive
radio in an emergency so I guess the arrays computer has emergency software
to act as a radio receiver, thats all the virus need.  As for 2 I agree,
only trader and liners for use in the Imperium should effected and most of
the damage probably from Virus ships wandering in.  The PoT seems to suggest
the Hivers are relatively unharmed.  There should be mostly intact Aslan and
K'Kree nations out there.  Any handwaving as to why there haven't contacted
or conqured whats the remains of the Imperium? (I guess the K'Kree could be
scared of by the Hiver, 'Invade this space and it's Corndogs for you lot').
Its voice of reason time, instead of saying my way is right, why not
concentrate on explaining why it happened.

        -Mark

*************************************************
 Mark Archer     marcher@cccp.net
 "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are
  looking at the stars."
  - Oscar Wilde
*************************************************


------------------------------

From: matth <matth@ritz.mordor.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 07:57:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: TNE World Building was Re: Hopes for T4

Hi: 

More questions from someone who knows nothing about TNE. 

> 3)  The world building data in TNE (derived from World Builder's 
> Handbook, which was derived from Grand Survey and Grand Census) is 
> great.  Again, the basic book should keep everything simple, but I'd like 
> to see this topic revisited in this much detail in a supplement for T4.

How did TNE improve on the world building data from Digest Group? 

Matthew

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #163
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 26 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 164

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. [none]
         2. Re: Virus Complaints
         3. Re: TNE 
         4. Re: Hopes for T4
         5. Starship designs & other things from the last billion digest
         6. Re: Virus Complaints
         7. Re: TNE World Building was Re: Hopes for T4
         8. Imperial Taxes
         9. Flames and Endless debates
        10. Virus Issues
        11. Re: 20 thoughts on virus
        12. RC campaigns
        13. Re: Aging

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: odysseus@inetnebr.com (Jeff Kazmierski)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 06:59:32 -0500
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe traveller-digest

------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 08:20:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Virus Complaints

> From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
> Subject: Re: Virus by Email
> 
>   <sigh> That still doesn't explain how sensors can accept virii. In order
> to enter, there has to be some way for code to be transferred from the
> sensors to the CPU, and the CPU has to be told to execute this code. 
> SENSORS DO NOT ACCEPT *****CODE***** THEREFOR THEY DO NOT ACCEPT VIRII. Is
> that clear enough for you yet??

Um, no, not for me at least. Who says that sensors don't accept code?
Nortel is planning a new phone set that will be dynamically 
reconfigurable by having it able to accept Java code d/loaded over the 
phone line. There's a LCD display attatched, so it can be programmed
to let you pay bills, buy tickets for sporting events, etc.

So, if phones can do it, why not sensors?

If we follow the current trends in computing, we should see CPUs 
embedded in everything and the distinction between code and data
will break down - code will be transmitted to dynamically
change the behaviour of devices, etc.

For instance, in CT you can have Auto-Gunnery (what was that
program called?) 1 all the way to 6. I don't imagine
that the gunnery station would be totally dumb, accepting 
control commands from a big mainframe (which is basically
how they describe it in CT, but), instead the main computer
would d/load a new gunnery program to the turret.

This has several advantages, including greater autonomy, 
and redundancy - if you main computer gets knocked out,
you can keep fighting.

Anyways, I feel silly doing all thsi justifying as other
people have presented the real rebuttal to this argument -
it's fiction, it's a game and it's set 3000+ years from now,
how can we disprove anything the game creators come up with?

Ethan

------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 08:24:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TNE 

>And the card deck stuck with another aspect of CT: all materials were 
>things you'd commonly have around the house.  No weird dice, just the 
>six-siders most people have and which are available at any drugstore, 
>home-made counters suggested for use rather than an emphasis on figures, 
>etc. 

Definitely, although that didn't bother me personally.  A few AD&D
campaignshad given me all the dice I needed.  But, I like the idea of using
cardboard counters rather than expensive metal migures too.

Peter

>


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 08:24:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Hopes for T4

>Yeah, I know.  It's too late to influence the main T4 book.  
>
>When I was younger, I'd sit and dream and hope what my Christmas presents 
>would be, even after they were under the tree (okay, I still do 
>this...grin).  It was too late for my wishes to have any influence, but I 
>still spent time wishing.  I find myself doing the same thing in regards 
>to T4, especially now that I have TNE as an additional source of ideas.

Hehe!  I still do that too. :)

>Here's a wish list for T4, including only those things I don't know about it:
>
>1)  I hope the systems are easy to use.  I love complexity, but I love 
>have a choice more.  The main system (ie, the T4 book) should be as 
>simple as possible.  Complexity can come later.

Right, definitely.  I think the complexity of the MT system was way too much
at first for a novie Traveller player like myself.  THe first few times I
rana  game, it took ten minutes for the players to look at a computer :)

>	You need to do a task...say, firing a pistol.  Dexterity is your 
>controlling characteristic, and you have a dex of 8.  You have Pistol-2, 
>so you add that in, giving you a total of 10.  You roll 2D6 for routine 
>tasks (with 12 as an automatic failure), 3D6 for difficult tasks, and 4D6 
>for formidable tasks.  Or, 1D6, 1D12, and 1D20.  Or whatever.  Highest 
>roll possible is always failure.   Otherwise any roll less than or equal 
>to the required is a success, others are failures.  If you want to add in 
>mishaps (or consider dangerous tasks/catastrophic failures), then add a 
>second roll on failure.  If failure occurs again, then it was 
>catastrophic or a mishap or whatever.  With uncertain tasks, have the GM 
>roll as well (like with the DGP/MT task system), in secret.

Different dice is a good idea, and it's at least something people expect in
an RPG nowadays.  There's not many of them that only use d6 like the CT
system did.

>	Personally, I wouldn't even bother with mishaps/catastrophic 
>failures, and I would make all tasks uncertain by having the GM do the 
>rolling (if it is uncertain, the GM can give whatever information is 
>appropriate to the player, otherwise reveal the result directly).  Keep 
>it simple.

I personally ignored mishaps\catastrophic failures as they slowed down the
gaming process too much.  Perhaps they could be added in as an optional
rule, but I know I still wouldn't use 'em.

>2)  Once again, I hope the editing is top-notch.  Doesn't have to be 
>perfect, but keep the errata down to 1/4 page per 100 pages.

I'd like to see it down to the level of the Star Wars Roleplaying Game Rule
Book.  As far as I know there's only two errors in the entire thing, both in
the stats for one class.

>3)  The world building data in TNE (derived from World Builder's 
>Handbook, which was derived from Grand Survey and Grand Census) is 
>great.  Again, the basic book should keep everything simple, but I'd like 
>to see this topic revisited in this much detail in a supplement for T4.

Well, since the worldbuilding data in TNE is basically the same as MT, I
like it, especially in it's corrected form.  However, what I'd like to see
is more of an explanation of some of the terms.  I personally know what all
the different stellar classes, etc. mean, but it is confusing at first to
decide what type of star, luminosity class, etc. to put in your system.


>4)  I hope the player's info (character generation, skills, combat, 
>starships, equipment, starship economics, starship combat, etc.), the 
>referee's info (world building, animal encounters, how to be a referee, 
>etc.), and the setting (what is the Imperium, the history, an 
>introductory adventure or three, etc.) are kept separate in the book.  Three 
>distinct sections.

Right, that should satisfy everyone on the list too.  THose that want
Imperium can read it, those that don't, well, it's at the end of the book,
so, ignore it.

>5)  I hope they provide lots of forms.  I love that about Traveller.

I'd like to see the forms in a pullout section at the end of the book for
easy photocoping without bending the spine of the book horribly.

>6)  I hope the tables (and forms!) are kept at the end of each section, 
>rather than being intersperced with the text where space is available.  
>It's nice to have the Aging table next to the text on Aging, but it seems 
>it never works out where that happens with all tables.  They end up 
>putting table X three pages after the text about it, due to the large 
>number of tables in the section.  So, put 'em all in the back of the 
>section they are treated in.

The tables are good, though I think they should be kept with the section
they're about so that said section can have better explanation of the terms
used in each table.

Peter MIller


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 14:42:30 +0200
Subject: Starship designs & other things from the last billion digest

     Yugoboxes:
     Nice ships.  I see them as a useful "baseline" design.  They show the 
     max profit you can make transporting / passenger carrying for the 
     size.  Now I can compare how "efficient" any of my own designs are.
     I noticed that the J1 & J2 versions carried the same cargo.  Shouldn't 
     the extra 10% hull volume of fuel have eaten into that, or did I miss 
     something?
     
     Sylean Medium Warship:
     Nice range of weapons on board; small lasers for anti-fighter/missile, 
     large lasers for taking out other warships, medium lasers for anything 
     in between or doubling up with the other weapons.
     The PP rating seemed a bit low.  Do your ships have the correct power 
     rating for the manouvre drives (1MW/kl, not 1MW/ton) from QSDS 1.2?
     The Manouvre Rating seems a bit low for a warship at 2G.  I guess this 
     doesn't matter as much, since you say its mission is as an escort (for 
     those yugoboxes, I presume).
     
     Crossposting:
     I've created a 5000t tanker using QSDS 1.2 (with the Big Hull 
     Table[tm]), but someone commented on the degree of crossposting 
     between TML, Xboat & gdw-beta, so I've only posted it to gdw-beta.  If 
     anyone wants the USD & worksheets, email me & I'll send it to you.  
     I've been sending my designs to Guy Garnett and they should appear 
     somewhere on his web page sometime soon (cmon Guy get your finger out, 
     QSDS has gone to the printers so you can't have anything to do ;-)).
     
     Lifespan:
     I think someone has already mentioned this, but max lifespan hasn't 
     altered by a great deal through history.  *Average* lifespan has 
     increased, (I think) mainly due to reduced infant mortality.  And by 
     the time you're 80, most people are riddled with cancer (although 
     that's not necessarily what they die from).  The people that last to 
     110+ have usually been found not to have any cancerous growths, which, 
     as I said, is very unusual for that age.  I guess Traveller era 
     medicine must have figured out how to slow down cancer for anagathics 
     to work.
     
     Rock throwing, Virus, Message headers:
     It's a shame that I can't identify which messages come from TML, other 
     than by getting the digest otherwise I would be able to use the 
     message filtering facilities of my mailreader to ... ahem ... 
     efficiently sort my messages into suitable folders.  A couple of 
     people have already mentioned this; is it possible for TML, TRAV, or 
     some other identifier to be automatically added to the start of the 
     subject of each message by majordomo?
     
     Er, I think that's everything I wanted to comment on.  I've been 
     inspired to re-read my C.J.Cherryh SF books starting with 
     "Merchanter's Luck".  Interesting stuff, including family run giant 
     merchant ships (by family, I mean extended family - over 1000 people 
     on board including children and retired crew) with reputable names and 
     credit available on any station, and the small speculative trader 
     trying to do an under-manned jump.  I might even be inspired to do a 
     Union/Alliance campaign sometime (hah! how many times have I said 
     that?).
     
     Cheers,
     Liam
     
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

From: mab@sdc1.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Mystic Musk Ox)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 14:24:02 GMT
Subject: Re: Virus Complaints

Sorry, I started to quote this, then lost exactly who said it:

> If we follow the current trends in computing, we should see CPUs 
> embedded in everything and the distinction between code and data
> will break down - code will be transmitted to dynamically
> change the behaviour of devices, etc.

Hm, there are already languages that do not have any distinction
between code and data. Some years ago I was involved in writing
some expert systems in PROLOG, which originated as a logic
programming language. It is interpreted, and can 'assert' or
'retract' new logical clauses as it operates. It doesn't care
whether they are code or data, and can use the same line of
code as either, if it wishes. It also doesn't care what order
the instructions appear in the program file...

Anyway, 3000 years+ from now, who knows? I must admit, coming
from a computing background, I didn't feel comfortable with
the idea of the Virus. As I didn't feel comfortable with it,
I felt that I could not represent it accurately to my players,
therefore I didn't use it...but I probably did use other ideas
that other disciplines would have felt uncomfortable with. As
long as no-one in your group is unhappy with it, thats what counts
isn't it?

Mark Buckley.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 08:25:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: TNE World Building was Re: Hopes for T4

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, matth wrote:

> Hi: 
> 
> More questions from someone who knows nothing about TNE. 
> 
> > 3)  The world building data in TNE (derived from World Builder's 
> > Handbook, which was derived from Grand Survey and Grand Census) is 
> > great.  Again, the basic book should keep everything simple, but I'd like 
> > to see this topic revisited in this much detail in a supplement for T4.
> 
> How did TNE improve on the world building data from Digest Group? 

	Well....I don't know if I'd say it was "improved" (except, I've 
heard it is better edited), it's just related....derived from.  It's 
pretty much the same old stuff as DGP put out for CT and MT, but edited 
differently.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 21:00:38 -0500
Subject: Imperial Taxes

The only thing I remember about Imperial Taxes was the Azhanti High
lightning class had a ship called the Children of the Marches which was
supposedly funded by the schoolkids in the Spinward Marches donating .25CR
of their lunch money to the construction.  The reality (according to the
AZH book (Supplement 5)) was that the Imperial Gov't simply deducted the
amount of Number of Kids *.25 from the School Lunch program and made it
so.

So in the 57th Century, they still have school lunches.  Go Figure.
- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@odyssee.net>
Date: 26 Jun 96 09:40:43 -0500
Subject: Flames and Endless debates

This is an open message to all flamers involved in the many contentious
debates currently raging (with varying levels of civility) on this
otherwise excellent list:

Whether the issue be orbital bombardment, computers/sensors and the virii
who love them or just about any other technical subject, people are getting
_very_ hot under the collar.  While everyone brings their own, valuable,
experience and insight to a discussion, one major point seems to have been
overlooked, and the "experts" are _at least_ as guilty of this as the
laymen:

We are dealing with (fictional) 50th-century technology.  Not only does
this make possible things we can only imagine at present, it (in many
cases) likely makes things we _cannot_ imagine commonplace.  While that'd
be awfully hard to reproduce in a game that is, after all, a work of the
imagination, please consider the 'advances' mankind has made in just about
every field of understanding over the course of the last thirty centuries. 
We have essentially completely rewritten every field of scientific
endeavour, in the process invalidating much or all previous thoughts on the
subject. It is likely that another such period will do the same. 
Furthermore, when you consider the snowballing of technological advancement
in recent decades and postulate a similar rate of advancement (for even a
significant fraction of the time frame involved), and it is evident that
making claims based on current thinking (in _any_ field) is pretty useless.

At the same time, we have nothing but our knowledge and experience (such as
it is) to base our opinions on, so it is understandable, even necessary
that we do so.  Much of the game's appeal lies in the fact that it has
traditionally had the 'hardest' science of any sci-fi game I am aware of,
and so applying our present knowledge (and attendant assumptions) is all
too easy.  Yet, having said this, it is inherently fallacious to do so to
the exclusion of other explanations.  We accept Jump Drives, do we not?  We
do so because our current understanding of the laws of Physics provides no
'feasible' alternative, and without it the game (as it stands) would be
unplayable.

Please consider this same suspension of disbelief (or at least tolerance of
it in others) the next time you get the urge to flame someone, or defend a
point of view unto death in the name of 'science'.

Thanks,
Ross Coburn
ross@odyssee.net

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 08:50:24 -0500
Subject: Virus Issues

First, let's everyone take five and cool off and return to a serious
discussion of the issue, not a flame war.

>From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
>Subject: Re: 20 thoughts on virus
>On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:30:15 -0400 (EDT), Larry Hadley wrote:
>>   What has the rest of the Traveller universe have to do with Virus? My
>> *only* objection to Virus is how it defies logic, and makes it impossible
>> to suspend disbelief, a factor *critical* to the success of an s/f story
>> or game.
>> 
>>   The other stuff, despite problems, are much easier to swallow than
>> Virus.
>
>And why is that?  It is because you are highly computer-literate.  Psioncs defy
>current logic, as does gravitic technology, but they don't seem to bother
you in
>the least (I won't even ask about reactionless thrusters).  Please don't

I think the above is the key.  I know the physicist's among us have a
serious problem with the reactionless thrusters.  I would guess the
psychologist's among us (and others who study human nature) find the idea
that Psionics can be supressed (with human curiosity what it is) somewhat
difficult.  The Economists and Financeurs among us (myself included) have
trouble reconciling the Imperial government structure and such with the
existing trade practices in the Imperium.  The folks who study FTL potential
(sorry, I don't know what you guys are called) find the Jump drive theory
crazy.  The military and ex-military among us find the combat rules obscene.
The major difference is that in every other incarnation of traveller, all of
the above ideas and technology (reactionless Thrusters, Psionics, Economic
rules, Jump Drive, and Combat Rules) are all included.  The folks who are
specialists in these other areas have to deal with the same difficulties the
Computer Specialists are forced to deal with concerning Virus.  The
difference is that the folks in the other fields can't just toss out the
version that includes the part of the background or rules that disagrees
with currently known technology because they exist in all previous versions.

Let's see if we can summarize the arguements:

  ANTI-VIRUS SIDE - Virus is just a program that must be executed before it
can even begin to take control of a computer system.  The computer systems
within the Imperium (possibly) and without the Imperium (definitely) will be
different and Virus could not easily transfer itself to another system.  The
idea that Virus can be transported through sensors and communications and
(possibly) even transponders which are just data is ludicrous.

  PRO-VIRUS SIDE -  Two things must be taken into consideration as the basis
for considering Virus.  1. Virus is alive and makes its own choices, and
therefore doesn't need to be activated to begin to take control of a
computer.  It can activate itself.  2. We are discussing computers that are
so far ahead of our technology that we can't even begin to comprehend how or
even why they work much less how a virus will interact with them.

  FINAL POINT - One other point needs to be considered, and that is that the
Transponders required by the Imperium to be on any ship that travelled
within its borders were small boxes that contained the Virus "chips."  These
systems were required to be intergrated with the computer systems on board
the ship.  This "Transponder suite" is supposed to have been the main access
point of the Virus.

********

OK, those of you on the ANTI-VIRUS SIDE, Let me know if I'm understanding
your point correctly.  If not let me know how to change what I've said to
better reflect your basic arguements.  Also if you can admit to
understanding but not agreeing with the PRO-VIRUS SIDE and the FINAL POINT,
I'd appreciate it.  (I'm not asking you to accept the PRO-VIRUS arguements,
just admit that you understand that that is what the PRO-VIRUS SIDE is
saying and you just don't think it is relevant or accurate or whatever.)
(Larry, I'm asking for your input here too.  I know you were going to drop
the debate, but this isn't a debate just a final position statement.  PS -
Everyone else - Larry's response to this isn't a reflection of his going
back on what he said previously, he will just be doing what I have asked him
to do!!)

PRO-VIRUS SIDE, we need to do the same thing.  That is we need to look at
the summary above and see if it accurately relfects our arguements and look
at the ANTI-VIRUS SIDE's arguements and admit that we understand what they
are saying, but don't necessarily agree with it.  Also please comment on the
FINAL POINT if you feel it is inaccurate or needs clarification.

If we can all do this, we might just be able to put this thing to rest and
put this in the "Done to Death" section of the TML/XTML FAQ.

Thank you for your support!  :)


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:50:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: 20 thoughts on virus

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, James Lindsay wrote:

> And why is that?  It is because you are highly computer-literate.  Psioncs defy
> current logic, as does gravitic technology, but they don't seem to bother 
> you in

  For the record, I don't use Psionics in my campaign. Gravitics is
another story, but it's so damned useful - and makes a LOT more sense than
Viruses that can infect through sensors. 

  I know I said I wouldn't follow up any more, but here's a thought for
you:

  Can you catch AIDs throught he telephone? Do you really think TL-15
telephones will make any difference in this? Virus infecting through
sensors is EXACTLY this silly.

> Ok... hope you enjoyed PAGE75.JPG

   Yes I did, thanks. The printing inside the grey areas was a little hard
to make out but I managed. (CG, ohboyoboyboy!)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:57:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RC campaigns

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, John R. Snead wrote:
> The Regency was an interesting setting and has some possibilities, but as
> I see it RC adventures would seem to consist solely of raids on various
> dungeon/planets.  I'm not attempting to start a flame war, but am honestly
> curious as to what else could be done with the RC setting other than games
> that would trouble me morally to either run or play in?

   There are a lot of possiblities. One could run a campaign where the RC
are the Heavies, and have the PCs trying to survive in the Wilds with the
RC being the occasional opposition. The biggest problem here is the lack
of a good economic model. You could also use the RC source material to
place the party on a world in the Wilds that is recovering from the
Collapse and starting civilization, and send them out in an exploration
vessel. You could set the party up as Imperial citizens coming out of
low-sleep after their ship got infected by Virus and introducing them to
the Collapse and get a feel for the party with a "what now?" scenario...

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 26 Jun 1996 10:02:05 GMT
Subject: Re: Aging

>Oh, speaking of aging, I've been thinking on this one lately:  How many 
>years will a person who lives in a TL 15 society live on average?  
>Traveller postulates that people will live about as long as they do now, 
>when in fact life spans have been increasing as tech levels increase in 
>the real world.  

Actually, the maximum life span hasn't really changed that much.  The
_average_ life span has been increasing, as few people die of diseases and
accidents.  Also, quality-of-life has increased for the elderly.  But there
is evidence that we are approaching a 'built-in' limit.  (Of course, limits
can be broken, which is what anagathics do.)

Statistics are tricky things.  There is a country in Africa where the average
lifespan is 15.  If you survive your first two years, though, you will
probably life to be 60 -- they just have a horrendous childhood mortality
rate.  (War, protein starvation, famine, endemic diseases...)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #164
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 26 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 165

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Virus through transponders
         2. Deck Plan Drafting Advice
         3. Re: Virus Issues
         4. Traveller Chronicle #10 and the Solomani Rim
         5. Re: Sensors as Virus Vectors
         6. computers
         7. Re: Re: Pirates and what the Navy is for..
         8. Re: TNE and the RC
         9. Norton
        10. Re: Telephone AIDS
        11. Piracy
        12. Re: Virus by Email
        13. Frivolous campaign idea: request for suggestions/ideas
        14. NOT about rocks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 26 Jun 1996 10:07:46 GMT
Subject: Re: Virus through transponders

>   Please explain how all this RAW DATA, which never gets loaded into
>the CPU as code and can NEVER be executed by the computer, "gets past"
>anti-virus defenses to infect the computer.

Check out the Internet Worm.  Message data got executed as code by exploiting
a hole in the sendmail software.

You may feel that this would be fixed in the future.  Having worked in the
telecom business, and seen the security holes left unfixed because (a)
"letting one would destroy customer confidence", or (b) "we can't afford to
upgrade millions of line cards", I can well believe that a TL15 system would
have some holes.  Precisely what they are -- given self-correcting,
slef-modifying hardware, adaptive software, neural networks, lightwave
processors, and the like -- I don't really care.  But I can well believe that
they exist!

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 26 Jun 1996 10:18:09 GMT
Subject: Deck Plan Drafting Advice

>You're right, of course, but some of us still draw deck plans on
>actual hex/graph paper.  Keeping things so that they fit within the
>boundaries makes it easier on us.
>
>>The technique I use is to place a small red (or gray) cross in the
>>_middle_ of the square.  This way, my one-metre-wide corridors still
>>have a marker to place a miniature on, yet I don't have the silly
>>situation of having corridors the size of staterooms.
>
>I'm sure this works well, if you are a graphic artist, draftsman, or
>are using a computer program to create your plans.
>Personally, I have trouble drawing a straight line even with a
>computer's help.  <g> So what's your advice for the artisticly
>challenged, like me?

Simple.  Get some 0.25 inch graph paper.  Using a scale of 1 metre = 2
squares, you now have straight lines every half metre.  Draw your deck plan
on this paper, using these lines to keep things straight.  When finished,
either darken every fourth line, or place small crosses (your choice).

Make corridors 1 metre (1/5 inch) wide - give the extra space to neighbouring
areas like staterooms.

This technique (which is what I used back when Traveller was first published)
works nicely.  Of course, you do get fairly large deck plans - but I feel the
extra detail makes up for the difference.

To check out some similar plans for Space 1889, look at:

 www.heliograph.com/space1889.html

(Actually, the plans may not be there for a couple of days, so be patient.) 
This will show you full-colour 25mm deck plans, complete with interior
furnishings (down to the papers on the captain's desk).

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:37:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Virus Issues

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> OK, those of you on the ANTI-VIRUS SIDE, Let me know if I'm understanding
> your point correctly.  If not let me know how to change what I've said to
> better reflect your basic arguements.  Also if you can admit to
> understanding but not agreeing with the PRO-VIRUS SIDE and the FINAL POINT,
> I'd appreciate it.  (I'm not asking you to accept the PRO-VIRUS arguements,
> just admit that you understand that that is what the PRO-VIRUS SIDE is
> saying and you just don't think it is relevant or accurate or whatever.)

The essentials of the Anti-Virus side are there, and I understand the 
Pro-Virus side as stated in your message.  If you want to put something 
like what you've written into the FAQ, I don't think it'll mis-represent 
the issues.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:39:51 -0400
Subject: Traveller Chronicle #10 and the Solomani Rim

Greetings all,

   Assuming that you are looking for some new Traveller material to hold
you over until MM's Traveller hits the shelves in August (and even if you
aren't, but love all things Traveller), please check out Traveller Chronicle
#10.  It is a special issue which introduces the Solomani Rim sector in the
New Era.

   In the tradition of the Regency Sourcebook, you get all the UWPs up
front, along with some information on each subsector.  The next
Traveller Chronicle (#11) will provide additional background essays
and other neat stuff to go along with the material in TTC #10.

   Traveller Chronicle is published 3-4 times a year, and is dedicated to 
promoting Traveller in all its forms.  Produced by Sword of the Knight
Publications 
on a shoe string budget, and featuring the outstanding cover art of Richard
Biever,
each issue of Traveller Chronicle is of excellent quality, even when my work
isn't 
included (that was a joke, Kevin).

   If you have already picked up TTC #10, and want to know who to
blame/thank, I'm your man.  Feel free to send me any e-mail you might
have regarding Children of Earth or the Solomani Rim.

Regards,

Harold D. Hale
hdhale@tasc.com or hdhale@aol.com

P.S.  Ordering and subscription information can be obtained at:

http://members.aol.com/SwrdKnght/sok.htm

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 26 Jun 1996 10:37:06 GMT
Subject: Re: Sensors as Virus Vectors

>  Nope. See my discussion with Derek - sensors make absolutely NO sense as
>vectors. Any attempt to try and rationlize this is doomed.

Would you accept a proof by counterexample?

As a teacher, I routinely 'program' biological computers through their
sensors.  I teach kids.  I have no direct access to their brains, but I can
instill (when successful) new observable behaviour patterns.

In fact, according to neuro-linguistic programming theory (supported by some
new work in neural anatomy), your brain 'extends' out into your body, and
thus its functioning can be directly affected by manipulating sensory input. 
Classic demonstration case is eye position/memory recall.

Now, if you believe that the TL15 computers are essentially high-end PCs,
this is all silly.

Personally, I believe that they have 'crossed the line' into the realms of
biological complexity.  Programers do not 'write code' so much as manipulate
genetic markers, train neural algorithms, and do other things that haven't
been invented yet.  This strains my imagination no more than believing in
gravitics modules that can warp space, jump drive that has limits based on
diameter (and not mass or gravitational gradient), starships that should be
glowing cherry red from heat production (but aren't), and many other parts of
the Traveller universe.

I remember someone claiming that genetic algorithms were neat toys but would
never amount to anything commercially.  At the time this individual made the
claim, several Canadian pipelines were using control software created by a
genetic algorithm.  What made tha matter amusing (or sad, dependingon your
viewpoint) was that the individual making the 'this is incredibly silly'
claim was a computer science student at Waterloo, so should have known
better.


------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:48:00 -0500
Subject: computers

Larry Hadley wrote:
>   To try to make this more clear, let's compare US and Russian computer
>design. The American computers and Russian computers have *totally*
>different form factors, and even less compatible architectural
>differences.
  Really?  A former co-worker's mother was a 360 assembly programmer
in Moscow.  Back in the 70's, the Soviet Union got their hands on
an IBM 360.  Copied it down the bugs.  That became the standard 
Soviet mainframe.
  The standard microcomputer in the Soviet Union were AppleII clones.
You could get the system, but not modems, printers, or disk drives. :-(

  Then there is the Gulf War lesson.  Sell your foes computer equipment
that you know inside out and can trash at will...

Mark Urbin eclipse@ultranet.com  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy 
spot on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
Opinions are MINE!  All Mine!  Bwwwaaaahhhh! 


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 26 Jun 1996 10:46:10 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Pirates and what the Navy is for..

>I don't recall seeing anything about [Imperial taxes] in the rules..can't
remember
>anything from the journals either..humm.  Personally, I figured the
>Imperium took a cut out of every transaction that went through a
>starport.  There was a Imperial agent at every starport, just to make
>sure the Emperor got his piece, the Duke got his, the Baron got
>his...and maybe a little extra for the agent.  <g>

I recall reading somewhere that the Imperium taxed member worlds, and how the
member worlds met those taxes was up to them.  I can't locate the reference,
and frankly am not willing to search through every published Traveller book
to find it.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 26 Jun 1996 10:52:29 GMT
Subject: Re: TNE and the RC

>I'm not attempting to start a flame war, but am honestly
>curious as to what else could be done with the RC setting other than games
>that would trouble me morally to either run or play in?

I ran my TNE campaign as a grand-n-gritty adventure to rebuild.  Although
many of the published adventures were raids, it was stated that these were
not nearly as common as diplomatic missions.  So I used that statement.

First-entry missions were covert insertions to gather intelligence. 

Follow-up adventure was a planning session to determine the best action. 
Which was usually...

Third adventure was a diplomatic/trade/aid mission to contact locals, help
them, and win their allegiance.

Against this, there was a backdrop of power politics within the RC.  Plenty
of hooks left there for a political game.  If you don't like the neo-colonial
attitude of the RC, run a campaign where the RC is the bad guys, and the
players are working within the system to change it.

------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 26 Jun 96 11:10:02 EDT
Subject: Norton

>> BTW, if you can find copies, try reading Andre Norton's "Solar Queen" series.
It's about the crew of a Free Trader (the Solar Queen). The books I can recall
are "Plague Ship" and "Postmarked the Stars". They give some good ideas on what
would keep traders going. Plague Ship has a good bit about the way traders can
get exclusive rights to a low tech world, and make a somewhat decent living off
of unique local products.  Postmarked the Stars has them running into problems
while earning a living on a contracted mail run. <<

Moon of Three Rings is a classic example of why a well-run Trader campagn can be
anything but boring!

HWF


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 26 Jun 1996 11:06:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Telephone AIDS

>  Can you catch AIDs throught he telephone? Do you really think TL-15
>telephones will make any difference in this? Virus infecting through
>sensors is EXACTLY this silly.

Well, why else would you need telephone sanitizers?

Back when I worked at Northern Telecom (now Nortel), someone posted a press
release from one of the American states, about how the Governor had mandated
disposable telehone sanitary cover be placed in all public phone booths.  We
thought it was a practical joke, but apparently he was serious...!

One of the current concerns at Nortel is how secure Java is.  Remember the
new Nortel phone mentioned earlier?  What if someone could reprogram it to
pay your money into their account?  (After all, it can be remotely programmed
to pay your bills.)  Sun claims Java is secure, but two serious bugs have
already been discovered (and admittedly corrected) - what if one is disovered
_after_ the phones are being sold?  This is the stuff of corporate
nightmares...


------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 15:14:26 GMT
Subject: Piracy

"Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> said: 
 
On 24 Jun 96 at 9:42, Bruce Johnson spewed: 
 
> So, in that spirit, I present the 'YugoBox' class of simple 
>freighters: no armor, no weapons, no passengers, just a hole in space 
>to fill with 
 
Oh, you mean the YugoBox class of derelicts.  Sorry, but there is no  
such thing as space protected that well in the Imperium.  Piracy was  
and would be a continuous problem everywhere within the Imperium,  
even at the core.  Or did you think the Imperium stationed all those  
SDB's & Gazelle Close Escorts in Core sector for military parades?   
As a pirate, I'd be licking my chops to puncture the hull into a few  
of these ships.  Be easier than stealing candy from a baby... 
- --------------------------------------- 
 
<Dragoness rubs her hands together in anticipation> Oh, boy!  You've 
just given me an excuse to restart "TML Thread that Never Dies" #3: "The 
Economics of Piracy".  Steve & I used to argue this one all the time... 
 
Precis: 
Away from the borders, interstellar piracy is impractical, uneconomic, 
and impossibly risky--It Just Ain't Gonna Happen.  It's about as 
feasible as pirating Mississippi River barges with armed gunboats.  
 
Quick Summary of the main points: 
 
(1) Pirate ships require a base.  No world within the Imperium will 
knowingly support pirates, because doing so means a Impy Navy CruRon 
brings a regiment of Imperial Marines to change your government for you.  
In fact, they'll do that to worlds *outside* the Imperium (Tarkine being 
the classic example).  So, a pirate base must be: 
     (a) outside the Imperium, on a world secure from Imperial attack. 
It has to be close enough to the Imperium for the pirate ships to be 
able to reach those rich targets inside the Imperium.  This does work, 
to a limited extent.  It's one of the reasons why merchant ships in the 
Spinward Marches, Reaver's Deep, and other border sectors tend to go 
armed.  Of course, pirate bases outside the Imperium provide the 
Imperial Navy character generation track with that exciting event: Raid. 
In my campaign, a lot of those non-wartime "raids" were punitive raids 
against corsair bases in the Vargr Extents.  Of course, your pirate base 
could be protected by a world that the Imperium doesn't dare raid 
without starting a major war, like the Sword Worlds or the Zhodani 
worlds.  In that case, if you are acting with the collusion of an 
interstellar government, you aren't a pirate, you're a commerce raider 
and/or privateer, and there's a state of limited space war going on. 
     (b) Or, the base could be hidden inside the Imperium.  This might 
work, but it doesn't take too much intelligence work to trace shipments 
of things like spare parts for starships, heavy machinery for repair 
yards, trained technicians, etc.  Room for an adventure, though.  Sooner 
or later, the base will be found, if it is within the Imperium, where 
Imperial Navy AND system squadrons have free rein to patrol and 
investigate. 
 
(2) Yes, space can be protected that well deep inside the Imperium.  
Everytime we've played a campaign game of TCS, we've been struck by how 
many thousands of fast, heavily armed, utterly deadly Fighters even a 
Pop 8 world can produce as a small part of the total military budget.  
And for a Hi-Pop world, enough fighters and fighter carriers to blanket 
every system in the same subsector is mere pocket change.   
     For hunting pirates down, you need a jump drive; for patrolling 
and defending a system against the small vessels usually used by 
pirates, there's nothing as effective as a well-designed long-range 
fighter.  BTW, the classic SDB is a long-range fighter on steroids; 
check out the performance.  Small (thus cheap), no jump drive, as heavy 
a suite of weapons as you can stuff in it, accomodations for long 
patrols, and pulls lots of Gs.  I always preferred a 50-75 ton heavy 
fighter myself; cheaper yet, build faster, better DefMod, but you get 
the idea. 
 
(3) I don't approve of completely unarmed ships. Put one tiny laser or 
missile launcher on them; that makes it uneconomical for piracy.  (Hint: 
compare the cost of repairing the pirate ships J-drive, M-drive or other 
vital systems vs. the salvage from the wrecked merchant ship and its 
cargo).  But, you can get away with it if you stick to heavily patrolled 
systems (like those on major trade routes). 
- -------------------------------- 
 
You said: 
 
Nice design, but I didn't even necessarily buy into the unarmed XBoat  
concept...let alone stepping on board an unarmed Merchant. 
 
The Liberty ship comparison isn't all that good either.  WW2  
Merchant ships were almost routinely armed with a deckgun, and there  
are accounts of merchant ships sinking or damaging U-Boats (the 20th 
century equivalent of the corsair). 
- ---------------------- 
But modern freighters aren't.  How many deck guns have you seen on 
supertankers? 
 
                          --Cynthia 
 
- -- 
"The Internet is a telephone system that's gotten uppity." 
                                                -- Clifford Stoll 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---------- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 15:14:30 GMT
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

 
Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> said: 
On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote: 
> Larry Hadley wrote: 
> >  
> >  I could _almost_ buy a standard computer argument from the Imperium 
> >standpoint (the "standard" trasnponder is a believable argument), what I

> >don't buy is: 
> >  
> >1) *all* races - no matter what mental predjudices, tech level, social 
> >viewpoint, engineering know-how, etc, were threatened by Virus. (Hivers 
> >dodged the bullet, but only because they used active measures to defeat 
> >Virus) 
>  
> I'm not sure I get your point here.  Are you saying that you don't  
> beleive that Virus presented a threat to all the races or something else?

 
>  The Hiver's antivirus countermeasure was a hastily developed "tame"  
> virus.  The Hiver's still took a beatin' from the Virus. 
 
   I'm saying that TNE assumes *all* races were threatened by Virus, yet 
logically this makes no sense.  
 
   To try to make this more clear, let's compare US and Russian computer 
design. The American computers and Russian computers have *totally* 
different form factors, and even less compatible architectural 
differences. This is from two different societies on Earth at more-or-less 
the same tech-level (Traveller scale).  
- -------------------------------------------------- 
 
A minor nitpick, but I understood that Russian computers were almost all 
rip-offs of American designs, and thus "miraculously" similar.  There's a 
well-known Russian mainframe that is a clone of the old IBM 360, for 
example... 
 
[snip] 
 
- -------- 
You said: 
 
  Architectures won't just change from race to race, they'll change from 
tech-level to tech-level as new technologies come on line and make 
different techniques possible. Varying architectures _insure_ that Virus 
cannot run it's code on *all* machines.  
 
  If after reading this, you still don't get the point, then I challenge 
you to write a Virus that can infect *both* my '486 PC, running OS/2 and a 
68x0x0 Mac, running Sys/7 - with*out* any differences in the Virus 
between the two. Further, the process must be *invisible*, must not give 
any clues to it's existence prior to infection, and is unremovable without 
destroying the computer. (Another dumb stipulation by GDW) 
- ---------------------------------------------- 
 
<evil grin> I believe there are popular packages with Java interpreters for

all of those... Do you have Java-aware Web browsers on both? Do you have 
Postscript viewers on both?  Are there gcc compilers for both OS? (Say 
"yes"...)  Do you get my drift?  There's a way if you're sentient, 
technically competent and persistant; Virus is all three.   
 
And if TL 10+ hardware is designed to dynamically reconfigure itself, 
(something that is almost doable now with PALs and PLAs), you could get an 
infection that can't be removed without destroying the "brains" of the 
computer.  Hell, just using persistant memory of some kind makes it hard to

get rid of that kind of garbage, especially if the Virus program is written

to defend itself against attempts to remove it. 
 
(I don't believe you've got me defending the feasibility of the Virus!) 
 
                      --Cynthia 
 
p.s. My argument with the Virus was in its plot use: IMHO, a thing like 
that would either (a) be discovered and countered before it got too far, or

(b) cause a collapse that lasted either 7 or 700 years, not 70. 
 
- -- 
"The Internet is a telephone system that's gotten uppity." 
                                                -- Clifford Stoll 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---------- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:15:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Frivolous campaign idea: request for suggestions/ideas

I am planning to run a frivilous campaign based on the 1970's cartoon
"Josie and the Pussycats".

No, there are no Aslan involved (see possible exception below).  For those
too young to remember this show, it was based around a terran "girl group"
of rock musicians, led by Josie, which when touring a spaceship of the
latest design one member of the group, Melody, accidentially hits a lever
launching them into space and subsequent wild adventures.

The problem is I can't remember any of the adventures from the original.
All will be roleplaying adventures (they're a girl group!  what do they
know about guns!) which probably end with the band playing a great rock
tune and making everyone happy.

Possibly, one of the players will insist on playing the Aslan bodyguard
(at which point it will become the "Josies and the Pussycat" Adventure).
Something I oppose only mildly, since the possibility of the completely
(almost) non-technical band being matched up with a by nature
non-technical Male Aslan has its own possibilities.

Ok, so here's the setting;

Josie and her band, "The Pussycats" accidently launch and misjump a TL16
100-200 ton (merchant?) vessel.  Obviously this experimental vessel has a
hih degree of automation, but being experimental it is also quite
tempermental.  They can't get it to reverse its course and end up
exploring planets (Sword Worlds area?) at the whim of the computer (and
the GM) making friends and playing gigs, and getting into all sorts of
trouble.

The following characters are present;

Josie : The leader of the group and just about the only one who can keep
her head in a crisis.  Skills; Performance (musical instrument) 4,
Leadership 1, Nothing else important.

Melody : The drummer.  Her amazing ability to do exactly the wrong
thing at exactly the wrong time is what caused the group to end up in
outer space in the first place.  At any given time, when she attempts a
task she has a 1 in 6 chance of doing exactly the opposite of what she was
supposed to do.  Skills; Performance (Musical Instrument) 3.

Valarie : The bass player and techie.  The only one other
than Josie who isn't flighty (at least not all the time) .  Also the only
one who can fix anything.  She has what equates to a Jack-of-all-trades in
electronic, computer and mechanical items.  To me this means she has about
a 1-in-6 shot (once) at fixing whatever is wrong with the ship, after
which she will identify a part or ability which the group needs to find
(wherever they happen to be) to fix it "So we can finally get home!".
Significantly, Valerie was the only Hanna-Barbera African-American
character I can remember (aside from Uhura on the Star Trek cartoon).

There are two other Pussycats who arent as memorable - anyone remember
this strange and entertaining show?  I looked for a "Josie" web site, but
suprisingly, alta vista failied to find one (I thought it might be just
culty enough...).

Any suggestions welcomed - especially if they come by email (traffic
yaknow).

Pete 


------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:07:40 -0400
Subject: NOT about rocks

Well, not exactly about rocks. :)

Well, I looked at the FFSlight document and did some back-of-the-napkin
calculations. It looks like I got what I asked for (and you didn't even
need the "zeta field" :). Specifically, with HEPlaR, a non-military ship
can hope at best for a maximum delta-V of around 2500 km/s. This is very
high, but not quite a planet-killer. Given that energy increases with
the square of velocity and at 5 km/s a meteor has the KE of its mass in
TNT, this yields a KE of 0.25 megatons * the ship's total tonnage. Thus,
a 200 ton ship could hit like a 50 megaton bomb. Most importantly,
planetary defenses could still deal with ships at those speeds.

Fusion rockets are less of a problem since they yield an even lower
maximum delta-V. Contra-grav and thrusters are more of a problem, but
since both are based on gravitics now, I would have no qualms about
arbitrarily capping their delta-V relative to the planet/star system.
For civilian ships, how about 3000 km/s (0.01c--yielding KE of 0.36
megatons/ship ton). Military ships could go faster--I don't care.

Would anyone care to check my calculations? I was basing the 2500 km/s
on 70 G-hours of available reaction fuel.

As far as using HEPlaR as a weapon:
Clearly, civilian ships using any sort of fusion-rocket drives would
be watched closely by any local defense force and kept in regulated
space lanes, etc. If you want to be able to move around more freely
in populated star systems, use thrusters.

There may still be some "free energy" problems, but that was never
really an issue for me (at least not by itself).

Disclaimer: I am *not* trying to revive the rock-throwing debate. I
just want to point out that the rules as written are still consistent
with the "feel" of Traveller (with perhaps some ref interpretation,
but that's fine).

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #165
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 26 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 166

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Trade System: Cargo Lot Sizes & Tables
         2. Re: TNE differences
         3. Re: TNE differences
         4. Re: Rocks: an ounce of prevention...
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #144
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #149
         7. Re: m^3 vs kl
         8. RE: Legal systems
         9. Re: Virus by Email
        10. Re: Pirates and what the Navy is for..
        11. Re: YugoBox uses and design motivation
        12. Proposal: Simple Task System

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 23:52:17 PST
Subject: Re: Trade System: Cargo Lot Sizes & Tables

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) writes:

> Lot volumes should be in cubic metres/kilolitres, but the increments should
> fit into standard shipping containers.  (25kL and 50kL seem reasonable -
> roughly 2 and 4 displacement tons.)
> 
> I think I'll use kilolitres, just because you can write "kL" in ASCII, while
> without superscripting "m3" looks a bit odd.

"kL" is kilo-Lamberts (a unit of illumination)
"kl" is kilo-liters (a unit of volume)

> Good Type: A nice generic type of good.  For example, grain, rice, manoc,
> potatos and corn are all "bulk carbohydrate". 

aka stuff to ferment :-)

BTW, you forgot triticale. (It's not only real, but I have a number 5
can of it packed in dry nitrogen)

> He then rolls 2D for each of the handling codes, getting 7 and 2
> respectively.  This good is flamable but not explosive.  (How can bulk
> carbohydrate explode?  Ever see a grain silo blow up?)

Also, the containers help. :-)


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 00:10:23 PST
Subject: Re: TNE differences

dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley) writes:

> Given the amount of data flying around between computers, how much of that
> data do we actually see.  The binary code for a single character is 8(?)
> characters long or is it 11(?), can't remember.

Depends on the character coding you are using. Baudot uses only *5*
bits per character. Several older character codings use 6 bit (2 octal
digits). I've even worked on an old Honeywell system that used a 6-bit
character set. ASCII uses 7-bits. Yes, *seven*. The characters above
127 on your computer *aren't* ASCII, they're just whatever the
manufacturer decided to put there. I've got several systems that have
*different* characters assigned to the 128-255 range.

EBCDIC was the first 8-bit character set, and is only used by IBM
mainframes. There are several "standard" 8-bit character sets.
ISO-Latin-1 thru Latin-9 are the most common. They all use ASCII for
the 0-127 range. Note that the PC character set is not a "standard".
ISO Latin-1 comes closest to "the" standard.

There are 16 and 32 bit standards "in progress". They both use ISO
Latin-1 as the 0-255 range. The 32 bit code (Unicode?) will support
*all* known character sets and have room left over.

Odds are that the Imperium uses a 32 or 64-bit character set.

> So for every character that
> appears on your screen the computer is actually processing considerably more
> data behind the scenes.  It becomes even more possible to slip a program
> into a computer without the user being fully aware.

Nice try, but the problem is that there is a decided difference between
*data* and *instructions*. Unless a program is specifically *told* to
treat some data as instructions, that data *can't* do anything on the
system. That's why computer viruses attach to executable files, not to
data files. The few "execptions" are in cases where a couple of email
packages allowed commands to be embedded in messages (a really,
*really* stupid design decision).

Heck, there are computer architectures in current use that *totally*
seperate the program and the data. They aren't even in the same memory
space. 

So the idea oof a *datastream* from another ship's IFF "taking over"
your IFF unit is about as likely as a file you are downloading taking
over your system *without* you telling your system to run the file.

Mind you, there *are* file transfer protocols that allow for automatic
execution of downloaded code. But they are fairly rare, specifically
*because* they can let someone take over your system!

Of course if the Imperium had *intended* the IFF to have that sort of
backdoor (perhaps just to load a routine to dump some info like the
last few stops, and then erase itself) then it's possible. But for them
to have that backdoor installed on their *own* ships doesn't make sense.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 00:36:14 PST
Subject: Re: TNE differences

dstanley@direct.ca (derek stanley) writes:

> If you allow the Program to carve it's own circutry it can imprint itself in
> the machine and allow for it's re-activation after a period of domancy.
> This stops players from simply picking up every piece of TL15 equipement
> that's laying around in the wilds and knowing it's safe.  This adds an
> element of danger everytime the players find some new gear.
> 
> How does it re-write the circuts?  God if I know...  

The "deyo chips" are a silicon life-form, and thus they can "eat"
circuitry and lay down new circuits. 

> Potentially it could hide in magnetic bubble rams.

Nope! Or at least not actively. Mag-bubble is based on a techonology
that isn't compatible with silicon (it's a *really* oddball form of
*garnet*). so the virus could *write* itself to mag bubble storage,
just like abny other piece of data, but it can't *execute* there (sort
of like a virus trying to "run" on a floppy).

Also, mag-bubble is rather odd as storage goes. It *isn't* randomly
accessible. Think of it as a long slot, twisted back on itself into
some pretty complex convolutions. The "bubbles" would be a sort of
double ended "peg" sliding along the slot. The read/write unit looks at
a peg, and notes which end is up. to read the next bit, it shoves that
pg into the opposite end of the slot, and grabs the one that gets
pushed out when it does so. To write a bit, the head looks at it, and
either passes it through, or flips it, depending on whether or not it
had the right value.

So a mag bubble module is much like a continuous loop *tape*. If you
just read a bit, you have to go through *all* the bits in the unit to
get back to that bit. They always get accessed in the same order. So it
*isn't* RAM. It's just a form or storage that's relatively permanent,
but writable, and only medium fast (faster than floppies,slower than
all but the slowest HDs,

In case you haven't guessed, I have a mag bubble module. :-)


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 00:55:44 PST
Subject: Re: Rocks: an ounce of prevention...

John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu> writes:

> 	I think  we have conclusively proven that once a big .1c rock 
> is coming at you, you've pretty much had it.  So how about keeping them 
> from coming at you in the first place?
> 	If you're the kind of planet that worries about .1c rocks, then 
> one solution would be to build a set of computer controlled orbital 
> observatories which keep tabs on big rocks in your system.  Before you 
> scoff, let me point out that this is still going to be a lot easier than 
> surrounding your planet with debris shields or playing interplanetary 
> billiards by bouncing other big rocks off of incoming big rocks.
> 
> Prevention measure #1
> 	The orbital observatory system would first catalogue all the
> likely dinosaur killers in the system (BIG number) and then would check on
> each of them, say, once a week.  This would be an enormous number of rocks
> to check, but you don't have to look at them long, or with any great 
> resolution, just well enough so that the computer can see that they have 
> not been perturbed from their orbit.  A large number of automated 
> observatories flicking their gaze from rock to rock would be expensive no 
> doubt, but still less expensive then a whole new planet :-)

Actually, his sort of thing would be done *anyway*. A crude form of
such a system is being planned *now*. Why? Because we'd really like to
have advance notice before a large rock decides to re-arrange things
here on earth. With enough advance warning we might even be able to do
something about it.

BTW, orbits tend to be inherently chaotic. There are just too many
rocks out there for any *conceivable* computer to accurately predict
positions very much in advance.

On the downside, natural rocks will be travelling slow enough that you
can get away with once a week scans. That's enough to let the computers
go "ok, we should have a rock *here*, but it's actually *there*" and
revise the trajectory. If the revised trajectory comes near anything
important (like the 100 dia limit of a mainworld), somebody will be
notified, and then they get to worry about moving the rock.

But the amount of stuff to track rises sharply as the size goes down.
Worse, it goes up even more as you get farther out. And it's moving
slower, and harder to see.

Inner system stuff is easy to police. Outer system stuff is hard to
police, Oort cloud stuff is essentially *impossible* to police. Too
many rocks, scattered too far, and too damn far out. 

Just as an example, at 1000 AU out, it'll take light almost 6 days to
get to you. So any data you have from out there is 6 days out of date.
And a .1c rock doesn't need to be big. It'll be too small to see at
that range.

Still, it's the sort of thing that wouldn't get tried very often.

> Prevention measure #2
> 	Patrols.  What are SDBs for if not to catch lunatics trying to 
> destroy your planet?  Okay, so space is big, but a populous world can 
> afford a whole bunch of 400Td SDBs.

A sphere 1000 AU in radius has a volume of over 4 *billion* cubic AUs.
In other words, you'd need 4 billion SDBS to have them about 1 AU
apart. And that's not counting the number of ships that'd be in port
for repairs, refurbishing, and crew exchange. Or the number that'd be
in transit to or from their "station".

> Prevention measure #3
> 	Everyone has to file flight plans, not just in your system, but in
> every system.  Flight plans are kept up to date by travelling ships
> themselves.  Each one is required to carry encrypted updated flight plans
> for all traffic to its current destination. (Sort of like X-Net in the
> Regency, only just for flight plans).  If a ship fails to show up when it
> was supposed to, its declared overdue and everyone's on the look out for
> it.  This helps resuces, anti-piracy, anti-smuggling, all kinds of things. 
> It also lets you know if there are any potential terrorists in the
> subsector who might lurking in your outer system pushing rocks at you. 

Of course, if they file a flight plan for a *different* system, a lot
of good that does you. :-)

> 	Trying to stop .1c rocks is like trying to get all the toothpaste 
> back in the tube.  Ain't gonna happen.  Rational beings will try to keep 
> .1c rocks from happening in the first place.

On the bright side, to pull it off, you have to start in the Oort
cloud, and do some damn fine piloting. 

Here's a "legit" use for high speed "rocks". 

If you have been invaded and are trying to fight a delaying action to
keep the enemy fleet away from the planet, you can try to "force" an
engagement away from the planet. The enemy, of course, will jump at the
chance, seeing as your fleet is big enough to be a serious nuisance
when they try to take the planet, but not big enough to be a real thret
in a standup fight.

Picture their surprise when you have 4 (or more) kamikaze SDBs
collide in the center of their fleet. They start way out and accelerate
for all they are worth towards the target point, from widely spaced
vectors. Sure, the random gas molecules in interplanetary space will
kill the crews. But when they collide, you are going to have a (very
small) star. It'll "kill" any ship within a *lot* of light seconds. 

Sure, it'll waste most of your fleet too. But consider how many folks
are going to be interested in attacking your system after an enemy
fleet "disappears" :-)

(BTW, I can't take credit for this idea. It comes from a short story
titled "The Bully and the Crazy Boy")

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 02:10:10 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #144

anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman) writes:

> I'm shure Dave Golden is American as every european knows that one doesn't
> measure anything in kiloliters, that was a unit invented by DGP for unknown
> reasons. Kiloliters and m3 are exactly the same but the former doesn't
> exist in the real world and the latter is harder to write on crummy
> wordprocessors as it should end with an exponent.

And cm^3 (cc) and ml are the same size too. But they both get used.
Just in different contexts.

I rather suspect that if (as I asume) your gasoline is sold in liters,
you'll find that the storage tanks at the place you buy it are measured
in kiloliters, not in cubic meters.

Kiloliter is a perfectly valid metric unit. So is cubic meter. And so
is stere, which is one of the original metric units:

weight		gram
length		meter
area		are  (as in hectare)
solid volume	stere
liquid volume	liter

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 03:58:53 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #149

Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com> writes:

> >How about Islamic Law? Ignoring the weirdness the Islamic fundies have
> >come up with (they twist things about as much as Christian fundies
> >do!), I understand it's a "reasonable" system, just very *different*. 
> >(Probably counts as "civil law")
> 
> 
> 
> "Reasonable" ?!!!
> Recently the high court of Iran ruled that anyone who did not believe
> that the world was flat was an athiest.  And athiests are commended to
> death in Iran.  

Please note the "exemption" for "Islamic fundies". That's the sort of
people who are running Iran.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 04:21:49 PST
Subject: Re: m^3 vs kl

eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) writes:

> My understanding is that standard deckplans will be 2'x2'x3.5' for T4. 
> So each hex/square will be 1 displacement ton.  Folks that are
> designing standard sized containers, fixtures, etc might want to keep
> that in mind. 

This presents a problem. Cargo containers are longer than they are
tall, *and* have a square cross section. The square cross section is so
that they can have "tank" containers, which are basicaly a cylindrical
tank with the skeleton of a container built around it. Tanks with a
circular cross section are both stronger and *cheaper* than ones with
an oval cross section.

The "longer than tall" is for several reasons. First, because that way
they won't fall over if you leaving one sitting on a loading dock and
something bumps it. Second, because when you open the door on the end,
it's a lot easier to to deal with something that is long, than tall if
you are loading or unloading it. Finally, because long is better than
tall for both surface and air transport (ie the way containers get
moved to and from the port!)

So, we could have containers that are 2x2x3.5, 2x2x7, and 2x2x14 (1, 2
and 4 Td). But that 3.5 meter ceiling screws that up unless we stand
them on end. Which we don't want to do. (containers are *always* "this
end up" units!) And 2x2x14is just *way* too unweildy. 

Current containers are either 2.5x2.5x7.5 or 2.5x2.5x8 (I'll have to
check).  They screw up things too. 2.5 wide means you have to make all
of the hold have widths that are a multiple of 4 squares. Yech.

A "compromise" that might not be too bad is:

full	3x3x6	(4 Td)
half	3x3x3

We can say the extra .5 meters is partly deck, and partly the "rollers"
that the containers slide in and out on. It still requires a bit of
extra planning on hold areas to make them multiples of 3 squares wide
and long, but it works better than the other two ways.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 04:55:47 PST
Subject: RE: Legal systems

Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net> writes:

> >How about Islamic Law? Ignoring the weirdness the Islamic fundies have
> >come up with (they twist things about as much as Christian fundies
> >do!), I understand it's a "reasonable" system, just very *different*. 
> >(Probably counts as "civil law")
> 
>         Agh! NO! <brief interlude as I go hopping around my desk trying to
> pull my hair out by the roots>.  Ok... now that I've chilled out, Civil law
> is not a catch-all category for legal systems that aren't common-law; it
> refers to a very specific legal tradition descended from Roman law, with
> some inputs from Germanic custom and other later European systems, that's
> been studied in European universities since the 1300's, was throroughly
> codified in Europe over the 19th century, and is now followed by much of the
> planet; Continental Europe, parts of North America, Latin America, the PRC,
> Taiwan, Japan, former French and German colonies worldwide all use civil
> law.  Common law is used only in former British possessions.
> 
>         Saying that Islamic law is civilian is like saying that there's no
> need to have a separate skill for cavalry dragoon and for FO :).  I'd
> suspect, not that I know anything much about it, that it is way different
> from the civil law; things like the prohibition on interest, polygamy, and
> ease of divorce are completely alien to the civil law tradition...

I was thinking more along the lines of it being derived from a written
authority, not from precedent, though I suppose there are arguments
both ways.

> >Hmmmm. I may have to dig up a Koran and some commentaries. I can just
> >see the players landing on an Islamic planet. :-)
> 
>         That would make for an interesting adventure, and wopuld be a lot of
> fun to research and prepare...  although planetary rotation would make
> praying in the direction of Mecca an interesting affair.  The Faithful would
> have to be very up on their celestial mechanics :).

It gets worse than that. The start of the month is determined by when
the first sliver of the new moon is visible. That's gonna be a neat
trick. :-)

> >ps. as I understand it, a lot of English common law dates back to
> >*Norse* influences. 
> 
>         Could be.  The common law as such has its roots in the justice
> dispensed by William the Conqueror's magistrates; given that numbers of
> Norse settled in the British Isles, I imagine that their legal influence was
> felt to some degree...  Glenn could probably answer this better than I can.

William and his buddies were Normans. Norman is a corruption of
"Northmen". They *were* Norse, just a couple generations removed.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 05:48:47 PST
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu> writes:

> I recall one of my Caltech friends relating that a virus had been
> discovered that had infected a variety of different platforms (Mac, DOS,
> OS/2, etc.) using the macro functions already inherent in some programs.
> Granted this limits the program to a specific brand of coding (I believe
> in this case it was some Microsoft product), but it was not limited by the
> platform upon which those were operating.  So in a sense, this can bridge
> the gap, as it would be unfeasable to have a huge number of coding systems
> just to foil a virus...the line between the necessity for system
> protection and the necessity for compatiblity between systems would be a
> fine one.

What's going on there is that the virus is infecting a "system"
consisting of the *application package*. In effect the program is
acting as a standard (but rather limited) architecture.

The only known case of something infecting multiple architectures was
the Internet Worm. It had code for two different OSes in it. It was
able to "infect" them both because it started by essentially getting
the OS to run a "script" (batch file to DOS types) and that was able to
determine which OS it was on, and run the right module.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 08:37:09 -0800
Subject: Re: Pirates and what the Navy is for..

On 25 Jun 96 at 16:34, Douglas E. Berry spewed:

> One quick thing in the whole Yugo/Pirates thread:
> 
> Picture this:  A backwater system has been troubled by a pirate.  He's
> picked of three or four merchants so far.  This is enough to slow the
> economy as trader Captains avoid the place.

Of course, the nature of piracy being what it is, if the pirates are 
smart, they don't hang around in the same system long enough for the 
Imperials to catch up with them...

> The local Baron petitions the Duke for help.  The Duke sends the 4873CruRon

This takes about say 2 weeks minimum.  Then the Duke sends a message 
to elements of the Imperial Navy (say another 2-3 weeks).  Then the 
Navy concentrates in the affected system (say another 2-3 weeks).  
That's 6 weeeks between when the pirates 1st start raiding the 
system, and when the Imperials finally put together a response.  4 if 
the Naval units involved are in system with the subsector Duke.  
After a couple of weeks, word of the piracy in the system is probably 
going to spread, and the system's going to dry up for the pirates to 
hang around anyways.  If the Pirates are smart, they hit the system 
for a couple of weeks then move on.  Without FTL communications, 
defending the backwaters from piracy would be a dicey proposition at 
best.  In developed systems, which have their own SDB's, the chances 
improve greatly...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 08:37:09 -0800
Subject: Re: YugoBox uses and design motivation

On 25 Jun 96 at 12:35, Bruce Johnson spewed:

> It isn't designed to be a ship that cruises the dark alleys of the 
> imperium looking for a fight.
> 
> Stuart challenges me to find a jump 1 route in the Spinward Marches 
> that isn't dangerous...no sh*t sherlock...I said these ships ran in 

Actually, I didn't challenge you...  Somebody else was saying they 
could see this ship plying the lanes in the Marches, and I didn't see 
it happening.  If it would work anywhere, it would work at the Core, 
as you've suggested.  

> 'protected core' I was talking about. Give me the height of Imperial 
> power, in the years befoore the Rebellion, and travel from Core to 
> Vland and tell me how many pirates you'll find. The simple answer is 
> none.

Actually, if you read canon, the answer is more accurately, some, but 
probably not a whole lot...  There are a few sources that show 
pirates having thrived in sectors which are not frontiers even prior 
to the Rebellion.  Assignment: Vigilante for 1.

I could see something like this working in convoys perhaps in core 
sectors, but remember that the nature of the Imperium is such that 
not even every world in Core is going to have a sizable SDB fleet.

>  It would be on the order of trying to sieze a large cruise ship 
> in the Caribbean...you will attract a great deal of very unhealthy 
> attention very quickly.  Those SDB's that the imperium has all over 
> are there for this very purpose, and that's gonna suppress piracy.

It is a job that at least prior to the rebellion, that the Imperium 
was not always successful at.  Several TNS items mention problems 
with Vargr corsairs, in just about all of the coreward sectors 
bordering on the Extents.  Even Core is not garrisoned as heavily as 
Corridor sector was prior to the Rebellion, but Corridor still had 
problems with raids and piracy...

> heartbeat...that's why the wars of pacification were relatively 
> minor, and why the Imperium grew so fast: trade was a hell of a lot 
> safer.

Granted.  The Imperium grew by showing a better ability to protect 
and encourage trade than its neighbors/rivals.  Another thought.  
Perhaps there were a whole lot less worries about piracy in the early 
years of the Imperium than later.  Even the CT universe was set 
during what was a decline period for the Imperium.  Perhaps 
increasing piracy prior to the rebellion was a sign that all was not 
well in Camelot...

> 
> 	Besides, given what cheap freighters tend to carry, it would be a 
> real pisser for a pirate to take one of them, and find out that 
> they're the proud owners of several displacement tons of stuffed Mike 
> the Ponii dolls, a crate or two of left handed widget gears, and 5 
> copies of Microsoft Office 1098 (that accounts for the rest of the 
> 150 DT of cargo space ;-)

;-)

 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:50:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Proposal: Simple Task System

Here's a rough outline of a Simple Task System for use with Traveller.  
As far as I know, it could be used with any version of Traveller.  It's 
not meant to be used in some sort of super-heroic campaign, so there's no 
"impossible" task level.  If something is impossible, it is impossible.  
No need to roll. :)

The system is based on the idea that characteristics will range from 1 to 
15 in value, with 7 being average.  It is also assumed that skill levels 
will range from 1 to 6 or so, with 3 being the most frequently 
encountered skill level for someone who is considered well-versed in his 
area of expertise.  Finally, people with skill levels beyond three become 
increasingly rare (ie, 4 is rare, 5 is more rare, etc.).

With that out of the way, I present my Simple Task System:

==========================================================================
BASIC RULES
===========

1.	Determine the task difficulty.  (This can be determined using the 
MT rules, TNE rules, or make-it-up-as-you-go-along (my favorite method).)

2.	Add the character's relevant skill level and relevant 
characteristic.  For example, for firing a revolver it might be Dexterity 
and Revolver.  

3.	Roll the appropriate die from the table below based on the task 
difficulty.  If the maximum value is rolled, then the attempted task 
resulted in failure.

Task Difficulty		Die/Dice	Maximum Roll
Simple			1D10		10
Routine			1D12		12
Difficult		2D10		20
Formidable		2D12		24


4.	Otherwise, compare the value rolled with the value determined in 
step 2.  If the roll is less than or greater than, then the attempt was a 
success.  Otherwise, it was a failure.

That's all there is to it for the basic system.  If you'd like some other 
features, go on to the next section.


ADVANCED RULES

Uncertain Tasks:  If you're fond of uncertain tasks, then the referee 
should make all task rolls.  Only tell the player what his or her 
character would know about the results. 

Mishaps:  If you like the idea of mishaps, then when a failure is rolled, 
make an additional roll.  If this additional roll also results in 
failure, then a mishap has occured. 

==========================================================================

I know the shortcomings of this system.  It ain't perfect.  But I'm in 
favor of playability over realism, especially when it comes to things 
that are done as frequently as task rolls.  In my game, I'd just use the 
basic rules.

If you have any additions or improvements for this system, please post 'em.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #166
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 26 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 167

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Ancient Artifacts/Virus
         2. Re: "It's a GAME, dammit!"
         3. Re: Death during Character Generation
         4. Re: Starship designs & other things from the last billion digest
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #163
         6. Re: Virus Issues
         7. Re: RC campaigns
         8. Re: Piracy
         9. Re: Virus Dropping Rocks on Drop Troops...
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #164
        11. Re: Pirates and what the Navy is for..
        12. Re: Hopes for T4
        13. Re: Virus by Email
        14. Overexplaining technology
        15. Adventures in the RC
        16. Mileu 1200...Virus plotting ideas...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Opgenorth <topgenor@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:56:48 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Ancient Artifacts/Virus

> >   Irrellevant. Grandfather "left" nothing behind for his "children" to
> > find, he seeded worlds period. Any tech left over was left by pure
> > accident.
>
> There's that word again!  Are you so sure?  I've never read anything 
published
> that states this fact.
Actually their is published material which states that Grandfather went 
to great pains to destroy any and all Ancient sites and trinkets that he 
could find.  Check out Adventure 3 - Twilight's Peak, Adventure 12 - 
Secrets of the Ancients, and Alien Module 6 - Droyne.

For fear of getting involved in the virus debate, here is my 2 
indivisible units of local currency.  I would like to state that I don't 
own TNE, just MT and CT.  So a lot of what I know about the Virus is from 
reading this list.

Personally, I find the idea of the Virus silly.  A computer virus that 
can infect any hardware platform just by contacting it seems rather 
preposterous.

But then, after reading the arguements for the Pro-Virus faction, one of 
them rang a bell, that of the virus being alive and sentient.  I vaguely 
remeber reading an article in a magazine a few months ago about research 
being done into biological computers.  I'm not to sure how they work, but 
that they do and are technically possible.  They only problem is that 
they take months or maybe even years to perform calculations.  I'll see 
if I can dig up the article and post a condesed version of it here.

My point is, what if 3000 years from now is this the architecture for 
computers?  It would be very possible to infect via contact, sort of like 
the common cold.

Anyway, just like has been pointed out, it is just a game.  There are 
many points of Traveller which are kind of hard to accept, but who 
cares.  It is possible to explain anything with enough speculation.  

Besides, if you don't like it, don't use it.  I haven't played or 
refereed to many RPG's where we didn't have house rules.


===========================================================================
Tom Opgenorth                               topgenor@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Edmonton, Alberta,Canada                 http://www.worldgate.com/~topgenor
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manubay's Laws For Programmers:
  1.  If a programmer's modification of an existing program works, it's
      probably not what the users want.
  2.  User don't know what they really want, but they know for certain what 
      they don't want.
===========================================================================


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:06:35 -0800
Subject: Re: "It's a GAME, dammit!"

On 25 Jun 96 at 21:24, Larry Hadley spewed:

> 
>   Yep, it's only a game. I've let this go (well before I joined this
> mailing list) because Virus was plainly a plot device, but this thread has

Yup, just like the aliens are plot devices, FTL travel is a plot
device, alien worlds are a plot device.  Come to think of it GM's are
a plot device.  None of them are any more (or less believable) than
anything else.

> me seeing red! People are just so darned DENSE here.

This is about enough.  Now we're down to insulting people here.  Take 
it outside the list folks...  There is no longer any productive 
discussion from anybody (including me) that's going to convince 
anybody on here...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:06:35 -0800
Subject: Re: Death during Character Generation

On 25 Jun 96 at 18:02, Charles Pratt spewed:

> 
> It's the ability (for better or worse, depending on RP ability) to play a
> Captain Picard right out of the box.  Anagathics was probably the worst
> thing to ever happen to character creation.
> 

Charles,
I agree with you here, but then again, how does your average 
character in the creation process going to afford anagathics...  
Shouldn't be a problem with most character classes...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:09:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Starship designs & other things from the last billion digest

>     Sylean Medium Warship:
>     Nice range of weapons on board; small lasers for anti-fighter/missile, 
>     large lasers for taking out other warships, medium lasers for anything 
>     in between or doubling up with the other weapons.
>     The PP rating seemed a bit low.  Do your ships have the correct power 
>     rating for the manouvre drives (1MW/kl, not 1MW/ton) from QSDS 1.2?
>     The Manouvre Rating seems a bit low for a warship at 2G.  I guess this 
>     doesn't matter as much, since you say its mission is as an escort (for 
>     those yugoboxes, I presume).

No, I haven't made the correct changes to my copy of QSD (I printed it) yet
as I lost the message in which it was announced.  However, I have got a copy
now, and will redo the ship corrected if you want.
    


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:22:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #163

>From: marcher@cccp.net (Mark Archer)
>Subject: Virus Logic
>the damage probably from Virus ships wandering in.  The PoT seems to suggest
>the Hivers are relatively unharmed.  There should be mostly intact Aslan and

As a point of clarification, it was the technical wizardry and the natural
electronics abilities of the Hiver that prevented the spread of virus
throughout their realm.  Other references to Virus state that their effect
is just as pronounced throughout the alien realms as in Imperial space.  The
Aslan weren't affected quite as quickly as others due to diversity of clan
systems, but the Sneaks and Geeks supplement from CDW states that much of
Hiver space is currently in a state of rebuilding after the Virus attacks,
they just were able to catch the problem before it destroyed them.

I do however agree that we need to stop jumping on Larry's case just because
he doesn't believbe Virus is possible.  I don't believe it is possible to
expect modern and advanced civilizations to subject themselves to a fuedal
system of government without representation.  I know I will probably be
flamed for this, and I expect a bit of criticism, but I will not get into a
mudslinging fest over it!  (And, BTW, I commend Larry on his dropping out of
the Flame War before it escalated!


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:22:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Virus Issues

>Paul Walker writes:
>>   PRO-VIRUS SIDE -  Two things must be taken into consideration as the basis
>> for considering Virus.  1. Virus is alive and makes its own choices, and
>> therefore doesn't need to be activated to begin to take control of a
                                ^^^^^^^^^
>> computer.  It can activate itself.  2. We are discussing computers that are
>> so far ahead of our technology that we can't even begin to comprehend how or
>> even why they work much less how a virus will interact with them.

It has been pointed out to me that I used the wrong words in the above
listed point one.  I should have said that "Virus is alive and makes its own
choices, and therefore doesn't need to be executed to begin to take control"
rather than "doesn't need to be activated" 

Sorry for the mistake, please replace the appropriate word.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:32:57 -0800
Subject: Re: RC campaigns

On 26 Jun 96 at 9:57, Larry Hadley spewed:

>    There are a lot of possiblities. One could run a campaign where the RC
> are the Heavies, and have the PCs trying to survive in the Wilds with the
> RC being the occasional opposition. The biggest problem here is the lack
> of a good economic model. You could also use the RC source material to
> place the party on a world in the Wilds that is recovering from the
> Collapse and starting civilization, and send them out in an exploration
> vessel. You could set the party up as Imperial citizens coming out of
> low-sleep after their ship got infected by Virus and introducing them to
> the Collapse and get a feel for the party with a "what now?" scenario...

Or how about a pocket empire resisting the incursion of the RC.  I 
believe that GDW was getting ready to set up the Empire of Solee for 
this role...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:32:57 -0800
Subject: Re: Piracy

On 26 Jun 96 at 15:14, Dragoness Eclectic spewed:

> The Liberty ship comparison isn't all that good either.  WW2  
> Merchant ships were almost routinely armed with a deckgun, and there  
> are accounts of merchant ships sinking or damaging U-Boats (the 20th 
> century equivalent of the corsair). 
> ---------------------- 
> But modern freighters aren't.  How many deck guns have you seen on 
> supertankers? 

Yeah, but how many boarding actions have you seen against 
supertankers recently...  If somebody could come up with a cheap and 
quick way to mount SAM's and other defensive weapons on freighters, 
they might in a future war...  The facts are that in times of trouble, when 
it was feasible to do so, merchant ships have always been armed, if not 
prior to the start of a war, certainly as soon as the shots started to be fired...

And how effective would a deck gun be against ASM's or SSM's anyways...  
Remember that Chinese Silkworms owned by Iran did put holes in a couple
of supertankers back in the 1980's including some that were being escorted 
by the USN or other navies...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:32:57 -0800
Subject: Re: Virus Dropping Rocks on Drop Troops...

On 26 Jun 96 at 9:50, Larry Hadley spewed:

>   I know I said I wouldn't follow up any more, but here's a thought for
> you:

Yes you did...

Can't we just let this *&^%ing thread die...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:56:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #164

>From: Peter <scouse@inforamp.net>
>Subject: Re: TNE 
>
>Definitely, although that didn't bother me personally.  A few AD&D
>campaignshad given me all the dice I needed.  But, I like the idea of using
>cardboard counters rather than expensive metal migures too.
                                                ^^^^^^^

Yeah, I hated buying all those outrageously priced migures.  They ran my
credit card bill up so high!!!  :-)

Sorry, I couldn't resist!!


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:10:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Pirates and what the Navy is for..

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I don't recall seeing anything about that in the rules..can't remember
> anything from the journals either..humm.  Personally, I figured the
> Imperium took a cut out of every transaction that went through a
> starport.  There was a Imperial agent at every starport, just to make
> sure the Emperor got his piece, the Duke got his, the Baron got
> his...and maybe a little extra for the agent.  <g>

Eris,

On one hand, taxes increase the marginal cost of the product or service 
taxed.  So, the Imperium would actually be causing a marginal decrease in 
trade by taxing it.

On the other hand, that's never stopped any government anywhere before, 
so why would it stop the Imperium? :)

Which is just a long way of saying that a trade tax, assessed at 
starports, makes sense.  Good thought.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:32:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hopes for T4

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Tom Miller wrote:

> I'd like to see it down to the level of the Star Wars Roleplaying Game Rule
> Book.  As far as I know there's only two errors in the entire thing, both in
> the stats for one class.

Wow.  That is impresive.  That's a West End Games product, is it not?  
Anyway, I hope IG is capable of that level of quality.

> Well, since the worldbuilding data in TNE is basically the same as MT, I
> like it, especially in it's corrected form.  However, what I'd like to see
> is more of an explanation of some of the terms.  I personally know what all
> the different stellar classes, etc. mean, but it is confusing at first to
> decide what type of star, luminosity class, etc. to put in your system.

Perhaps the basic book could have a very simple (a la CT) world 
generation system (ie, without spectral classes, system generation, 
etc.), while the rest of that could be covered in a supplement....in 
great detail.  I love it when I get an RPG and actually learn something 
about the real world that I didn't know before.  When the author(s) go to 
the effort of researching the real world it's great.


> >5)  I hope they provide lots of forms.  I love that about Traveller.
> 
> I'd like to see the forms in a pullout section at the end of the book for
> easy photocoping without bending the spine of the book horribly.

Good point, it's better to not bend the book and crack the spine!  Then 
again, it's also better to not rip pages out.  Perhaps they could have a 
forms pack that would either be available separately or would be 
enclosed with the boxed Deluxe Traveller set.  That way you don't have 
to ruin your book in any way. :)

How many days 'till T4 comes out? :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:38:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

I didnt like Virus much for various reasons, but flaming it by equating it
with a *computer program* is not correct.  It is/was/will be a life form
that happens to be able to interface with electronic devices, and with the
intelligence to figure out how to do it.  Virus is not a program, perhaps
the term itself is the problem, as it makes people think of what we call a
computer virus.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:38:19 -0400
Subject: Overexplaining technology

:BEGIN VIRUS ALERT!:
It occurs to me that at least some of the Virus debate is the result
of "overexplaining" how it works. It should be enough to say that ALL
Imperial/Solomani/etc. computers were vulnerable. "How?" "We're not
100% certain, so you'd better not rely on your computers too much."
Explaining that it sends a binary copy of itself over the radio
which will infect *any* piece of silicon attached to a receiver is
asking for trouble, though.

Before anyone jumps down my throat: I do not own TNE, so I don't
know how much of this overexplaining is coming from the rules and
how much is from the TML membership. :-)
:END VIRUS ALERT!:

The same can be said for any currently unavailable technology. As
soon as you try to explain it, someone is likely to debate the
point. It may also be proven impossible as soon as you go to print.
Worse, it may introduce inconsistencies in the campaign universe
since you could not possibly think through all of the consequences.

Thus, for things like jump-drive, contra-grav/thrusters, and Virus,
the best approach is to explain them as little as possible. Better
yet, leave room for alternative explanations about how they work.
If you want Babylon 5-style J-drives, great! (Of course, you can't
have jump gates and still be using the Traveller setting.) I would
personally give at least three different *possible* explanations
for how *any* advanced technologies like these work. Put them in a
sidebar and let the referee choose which one to use. Of course,
they would all have to have the same effect on the overall game
setting. Now, the game mechanics will not be able to rely on the
*details* of technologies that don't exist (actually they could
rely on details that are present in all three explanations).

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 14:05:21 -0400
Subject: Adventures in the RC

John R. Snead wrote:
>My problem with TNE was simply that I didn't like the setting.  The grand 
>and wonderful Imperium is reduced to the near stone age, and "our heros", 
>ie the RC, seemed to be the ultimate D-n-D group:  land on a planet, kill 
>folks and take their stuff, all in the name of progress and liberation.  

>The Regency was an interesting setting and has some possibilities, but as
>I see it RC adventures would seem to consist solely of raids on various
>dungeon/planets.  I'm not attempting to start a flame war, but am honestly
>curious as to what else could be done with the RC setting other than games
>that would trouble me morally to either run or play in?


I think you can run the same type of adventures in an RC campaign, that
you can in a Classic Spinward Marches campaign.  Sure the Smash and
Grab adventures get people's attention, especially now that they have a
name for them, and GDW released a book of 6 such adventures. (Though I
think one of them, the one set on Leberhez, works better as a political
intrigue style adventure, and that is pretty much the way it is
written)  Two of those adventures were part of large military
operations, and I don't like that type of adventure much.  But the rest
were send in a small party and have them grab something.  Several CT
modules had the same type of setup.  Research Station Gamma comes to
mind, the players invade the station, and fight it out with several
security robots and then liberate the captives.  
	Path of Tears had many Smash and Grab adventure ideas, but it
also had the same number of Diplomatic ideas, mercantile ideas,
investigation ideas and bunch of others.  World Tamers Handbook had two
campaigns set up based on starting a colony.  
	In my campaign, I plan on running several CT Adventures, with
adjustments for local of course.  I think Divine Intervention works
pretty well, and Night of Conquest would be neat.  The Secret of the
Ancients is just a fun module,  and I want to run it.  Other adventures
I plan on running involve political intrigue among the member states of
the RC, pirates. Going to a Wilds planet, slowly exploring it and
getting to know the people, and helping to free the oppressed Droyne.
	I guess I choose to run a RC campaign, because its smaller.
This way I can easily develop a majority of the worlds.  Also I figured
my players who have never played Traveller would have an easier time
grasping two subsectors of worlds, rather than the entire Marches. Also
the dynamic nature of the constantly evolving RC is pretty neat.

I also thought about running a Regency campaign, or a Rebellion
campaign, but came down to the RC.
Well that's what I think, I hope it answers some of your questions.
Lewis                                                                  
                                                

------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:06:29 MST7
Subject: Mileu 1200...Virus plotting ideas...

Virus marches on.
first off...if you don't like Virus, go away, this isn't for you.

Some subversive NE thoughts:

This occurred to me riding in to work today. It seems rather deus ex
machina-istic, that the RC encountered Sandman in the fortuitous way
they did. That got me to thinking_where in the heck DID something
like a Peacekeeper virus come from_after all they evolved from war
machines. That led me to those most ex machina-istic of beings: The
Hivers.

(I do NOT have Aliens of the Rim, so if any of this is contradicted
by these sources, I'm sure you all will let me know ;-)

(PS I also believe that the shadowy figure on the Grassy knoll is
actually a Hiver, so bear with me. I mean it's obvious_the aliens
controlling earth are these big grey reptilian beings who like shiny
new black 1965 Lincolns...it's pretty clear that the Greys aren't
controlling things, but that these Iklithur (SP?) are only the
Hiver's muscle on this planet ;-)

These facts are known: 

a)  The Hivers were grievously messed over by Virus and the
rebellion.

b)  They are master manipulators of societies_after all,
anything that could get a K'Kree to willingly eat meat, is very very
good at it. 

c)  All sources indicate that they are also very good
with computers. 

d)  They are insatiably curious, and their tour bus
through the Rebellion mentioned in Survival Margin (SM), probably
wasn't the only recon mission into the Imperium. They probably
passed by Cymbeline at some point.  After all, they would be VERY
curious about a living computer circuit; any computer engineer worth
their salt would have probably been trying to get some of those
suckers into their lab for study. After the rebellion started, the
interdiction on Cymbeline came down_after all there is one passage
in SM about a high ranking Solomani party member going to Cymbeline
to investigate whether the chips would qualify as sentient beings.

e) They are manipulating (helping, sending in technical advisers, etc)
the RC. Historically they have done this in order to ensure stable
borders, and trading partners.

f)  Some Cymbeline chips readily became self aware, upon exposure to
enough external data sources and memory. (this is an old, old AI
standby, both in real life and SF: Enough computing horsepower +
stimulation from the real world = Self Awareness. Cf: Moon is a Harsh
Mistress, When Harlie was One, 2001)


This leads to my speculative points:

a)  The Hivers had samples of the Cymbeline chips prior to the release of Virus. They were studying them with the intentions, probably, of using them or some system derived from their study of them  to introduce some rather powerful TL 17 verging on 18

b)  This experience probably helped them reduce the damage to their systems and society.  It also made them very aware of just how dangerous to them the Imperium had been.  They certainly would take steps to prevent that from happening again.

c)  They have a crying need for intel on both what's left of the Imperium and what Virus has mutated into. The Puppeteer strain probably scares those six legged pants off them_after all even the name strikes a little close to home ;-).

d)  They've always worked by inserting undercover agents into societies to study and manipulate them.

Peacekeepers here serve two purposes. First they are an ideal agent
to get intel on Virus society; they talk to all sides, learn their
weaknesses, strengths.  They can manipulate Virus society, witness
sandman's own manipulations on Promise.

Second, they are clear examples to the RC, of exactly how useful
sentient computers could be, if integrated into human society_if
they could be trusted.  How better a way to introduce trust than by
having this `spontaneous' mutation of Virus into a strain that
actually sees great advantages in allying itself with humans.  After
all, there are clear evolutionary steps in the Virus  family tree to
this point: the Mother and God strains. Never underestimate the
power of self interest on either the RC's side or the Sentient
computer's.

Having the Hivers simply step in and say `Here's this great computer
we've developed_RC meet Sandman, Sandman, meet the RC' would
probably simply result in a lot of missile and/or laser fire.

But, a hot extraction of a clear human ally from a hostile
environment_now there's something to garner some trust in the RC and
the societal mythos that's developing the RC.

How does this help the Hivers? First, a friendly society, that sees
sentient computers as full members of society are a hell of a lot
less likely to use them as weapons in the fashion of Virus. 

Second, such a society would have a clear leg up on the competition
(the Regency).

Thirdly, the Hivers have a ready made soource of income_computing
technology.  If you think the average technofreak on earth today is
willing to spend bucks on toys, just think of what they would spend
if they WERE their toys!

Complications to this plot? 

Those wonderful Hivers Rouge (I'm sorry, but the correct spelling is
rogue, but I love the resonance of the word_it sounds like some
secret  revolutionary party_'a nest of Hivers Rouge' sitting around
a Paris cafe, swilling wine, and plotting their overthrow of The
Man)

The Regency_they're powerful, they're heavily armed, and they HATE
Virus.

Resurgent Solomani_They're tough, they're mean, and they don't like
ANYbody else.

Thoughts, people?



Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 26 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 168

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Imperial funding
         2. virus discussion
         3. Virus IS CODE
         4. type r stars
         5. Solomani Aging
         6. Virus... Just Say No! ;-)
         7. Deck Plan Drafting Advice
         8. Re: Overexplaining technology
         9. Cargo Containers (was: Re: m^3 vs kl)
        10. Re: Piracy
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #162
        12. Re: Virus Complaints
        13. Re: [T96#154] Virus
        14. Re: [T96#154] Virus by Email

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:14:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Imperial funding

Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> wrote:

>Which brings up something I've been wondering for quite some time.  Is 
>there any mention anywhere in all the materials for Traveller of how the 
>Imperium makes money?  What sort of taxes do they levy?  I'd imagine 
>they'd at least levy some sort of trade tax, since that's the activity 
>they seem most interested in.  If so, then your reason #3 would be VERY 
>important to them indeed. 

Not obviously, although there are suggestions.  The clearest statement on
this is from _Regency Sourcebook_, on how the *Regency of Deneb* raised
funds, but the description there seems consistent with the Imperium as well.

The Imperium appears to raise money by taxing worlds and services, but not
individual citizens.  There is no "Imperial Income Tax".  Basically, the
Imperium tells member worlds how much they owe, and the worlds decide how 
to raise the money.  This tax burden can be reduced if the world suffers
some natural disaster, or can be increased if the Imperium builds a major
facility there, like a naval shipyard.  In terms of services, the Imperium
requires starships to pay licensing fees to operate, charges for certain
services offered at the local Imperial consulates, takes a cut of the
landing fees charged by starports, and so on.

Notice that *planets* may have a local income tax to pay off their debts
to the Imperium -- but they may just as easily operate a lottery, and use
the profits for the same thing, or a sales tax, or anything else they 
want, within reason.  If they feel unduly taxed by the Emperor, the world
can always appeal through its' noble representatives to the Moot, which
can in turn put political pressure on the Emperor to relieve the local
tax burden.

The old version of _Striker_ notes that planets pay something like 30% of
their local military budget to the Imperium to support the Imperial 
military.  This comes to about one percent of gross planetary product in
most cases.  Based on separate calculations by Wildstar and myself, this
part of the budget alone is about TCr 2000 to 5000 annually.  This figure
would be split among the salaries, ships, operating equipment, supplies, 
and facilities all the Imperial armed forces, and probably includes 
"colonial" subsector reserves raised by the dukes as well.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
 

------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:35:02 -0800
Subject: virus discussion

>> At least, that's my take on how it would be possible for a self-aware
>> program to spread throughout all computers.
>
>And a great take it is.  Do you think GDW had these descussions before
>they implemented the Virus plan?
>
>Derek Stanley
>
I seriously doubt it. And as for the virus being able to watch what's going
on, it has to gain access to a circut first; Virus comes in two flavors:
Cymbeline chips and Data Packets. GDW said that they were interchangeable.
However, I've yet to hear of software that can re-write roms (not proms).
Virus is just too faulty for any easy suspension of disbelief. My players
decided after two short (4-8 session) RC campaigns never to play in the
virus era again. Only one has renegged on that, of the 8 players. They all
felt it vwas just too incredulous. And so do I.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:35:08 -0800
Subject: Virus IS CODE

On chip or over the airwaves, it is STILL NOTHING BUT CODE. so unless you
put an infected cymbeline chip near your mainframe, it WONT RUN UNLESS YOUR
COMPUTER LETS IT. may never get control back, but it has to give up control
to the virus first.

>> Chill Larry, that's pretty uncalled for.
>
>   Stop pouring gasoline on this thread, and start *listening* to what I'm
>saying, and maybe we'll get somewhere.

Here, Here. Bravo, Larry, Bravo!

>> It doesn't the virus is merely using the return echo as a method of
>> entry.  This is the least desirable method of entry, passive sensor would
>> be much more useful as they simply sit there and listen to everything
>> that's going on around them.  Process the data and spit it out to us in a
>> format that we can understand.
>
>  <sigh> That still doesn't explain how sensors can accept virii. In order
>to enter, there has to be some way for code to be transferred from the
>sensors to the CPU, and the CPU has to be told to execute this code.
>SENSORS DO NOT ACCEPT *****CODE***** THEREFOR THEY DO NOT ACCEPT VIRII. Is
>that clear enough for you yet??
>
>- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca

Larry, As I Recall, this subject got dropped last year as it couldn't be
kept to a rational discussion because some people kept spouting the same
gibberish constantly, bothering those who did try intelligent discourse.
(Thak the makers that PPugslie isn't here to make the anti-virus side look
bad ;-)

Those who like virus are gonna invoke the "How can we understand" line of
thought, without reguard for anythinng else.

Unfortunately for your line of thought, apple is merging code/data with
containerized applications (OpenDoc); a container holds code and/or data
and/or resources.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:35:15 -0800
Subject: type r stars

>> Oh, Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me Now Sweetheart: OBAFGKMNS are the types...
>
>There is an 'R' spectral classification.  It usually gets mushed together
>with 'N'.
>
>(OBAFGKMRNS)
 interesting... makes the memory ditty into oh be a fine girl kiss me right
now sweetheart.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:35:20 -0800
Subject: Solomani Aging

>
>What about the Solomani?  As far as I remember, and this is from a long
>time back 10+ years, the Solomani were masters of genetic manipulation,
>far more sophisticated than the Imperium in this aspect.  If I remember
>this point right, could the Solomani effectively lengthen their life
>span far beyond the human norm.  Much like Anagath-B.
>
>Derek Stanley

According to Rats and Cats, their aging table is one pooint lower than
imperial standard.

According to Vilani and Vargr, vilani have anywhere from +0 to +5 on the
aging table, reflecting the pureness and longevity of their vilani
ancestry.



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:35:26 -0800
Subject: Virus... Just Say No! ;-)

One of the things that my group and a friend's group discovered is that, if
you just ignore the whole virus thing, the New Era is as likely to occur as
with virus. At least on the macroscopic view.

Yes, some things would be different, especially for the Regency. The RQS
(Regency Quarantine Service) would probably be the Regency Customs Service.

The Ziru Sirkaa would still exist, again, like the regency, in a tightly
closed border situation; not that you can't enter, you just can't leave and
come back.

The vast majority of imperial space was already as bad off as the virus
left it... hard times fell courtesy of the war. Just step up the warfare,
and have dulinor and Lucan go to it in force, with lucan's black war
policies and dulinor taking vengeance for them in turn, and the collapse
does nearly as much damage as the virus would.

Pocket empires were already forming. (Astrogator's guide to diaspora, GDW).
Lots of them. In conflict.

The Solomani would ramin intact. Strephon gets to figt the solomani and dulinor.

The RC could rise real nice and easy... especially if the hivers want a
semi-puppet. Just make sure that black war hit near by... even if it was by
successor states to the imperium (IE, pocket empires.)

Margret and here faction kept pulling back... why would she stop? Probably
not enough ships to stop the rampant piracy.

etc.

You wind up with a virus free, no imperium, let's expand/explore/exploit
mentality, as well as an even bigger hatred of things "Imperial", as these
were what caused the end of life on thousands of worlds.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 13:48:43 -0600
Subject: Deck Plan Drafting Advice

On 06/26/96 at 01:45 PM,  eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) said:

On 06/26/96 at 10:18 AM,  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob
Prior) said:

>So what's your advice for the artisticly challenged, like me?

>Simple.  Get some 0.25 inch graph paper.  Using a scale of 1 metre =
>2 squares, you now have straight lines every half metre.  Draw your
>deck plan on this paper, using these lines to keep things straight. 
>When finished, either darken every fourth line, or place small
>crosses (your choice).

Up to now I have been using .50 inch graph paper (special ordered it
from an office supply house years ago) with each square equalled 1.5
meter (appox 5', a very nice width <g>).  I could go up to 2m/sq or
down to 1m/sq, but the scaling effects won't be good.  <sigh> 

BTW, the reason I went out and got the 1/2" paper was so a cardboard
counter would fit nicely in the square and I wouldn't have all the
other lines cluttering up the deckplan.  I even made a pair of 44x56
square (1/2"/sq) mapboard, covered with plastic laminate, so I could
lay down pre-drawn plastic sheets, and draw in (and erase) different
features.  Later I also bought blank hex boards from Avalon Hill. 
Squares for interiors.  Hexes for exteriors. <g>

>Make corridors 1 metre (1/5 inch) wide - give the extra space to
>neighbouring areas like staterooms.

Corridors are one reason I liked the 1.5m square.  One meter is a
narrow corridor, measure it out and imagine the problems of two people
passing, moving equipment, or *any* kind of combat along a corridor
that narrow.  Two meters (~6.5') make a corridor a little wider than I
like.  

I do realize very narrow corridors are probably more realistic
(submarine model), but wider corridors are more playable..IMHO.

It's just occurred to me to see if I can find 1 cm graph paper (I
*know* the world outside the US isn't standardized on 1/4" squares
<g>)!  It would be a slightly larger scale, but I could go to
1cm/meter.  That would be very convenient for scaling.  The common .5"
cardboard counters would cover 1.27m (~4')...I could live with
that...an individual having a 4' diameter personal space is more
realistic than the 5' I was using.

>To check out some similar plans for Space 1889, look at:

> www.heliograph.com/space1889.html

>(Actually, the plans may not be there for a couple of days, so be
>patient.)  This will show you full-colour 25mm deck plans, complete
>with interior furnishings (down to the papers on the captain's desk).

I certainly will take a look.

One last thing, most of my gaming the last few years has been done
online, PBEM.  As an aid, I created blank hex grids at different
scales using regular ASCII characters.  I've included an abbreviated
example of one size below (it looks good using a monospaced font, but
forget it if you only use proportional <g>)...

  ____        ____
 /    \      /    \
/      \____/      \
\      /    \      /
 \____/      \____/
 /    \      /    \
/      \____/      \ 

...they work very well for things like subsector maps.  They don't
take near the bandwidth as graphical equivalents, are displayable
directly in email/echomail readers, print nicely (and quickly), and
they are easy to regenerate (if I lose my templates <g>) with simple
cut and paste.

Have other folks done the same kind of thing?


Eris


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 14:05:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Overexplaining technology

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Gerald S. Williams wrote:

> The same can be said for any currently unavailable technology. As
> soon as you try to explain it, someone is likely to debate the
> point. It may also be proven impossible as soon as you go to print.
> Worse, it may introduce inconsistencies in the campaign universe
> since you could not possibly think through all of the consequences.

	Right.  If we knew how J-drive (or any of the other Traveller 
technologies) worked, we'd make them /now/ and be wealthy beyond our 
wildest dreams. :)  

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:18:17 -0700
Subject: Cargo Containers (was: Re: m^3 vs kl)

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 04:21:49 PST
>Subject: Re: m^3 vs kl
>
>eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) writes:
>
>> My understanding is that standard deckplans will be 2'x2'x3.5' for T4. 
>> So each hex/square will be 1 displacement ton.  Folks that are
>> designing standard sized containers, fixtures, etc might want to keep
>> that in mind. 
>
>This presents a problem. Cargo containers are longer than they are
>tall, *and* have a square cross section. The square cross section is so
>that they can have "tank" containers, which are basicaly a cylindrical
>tank with the skeleton of a container built around it. Tanks with a
>circular cross section are both stronger and *cheaper* than ones with
>an oval cross section.

Um, I have bad news for you.  Cargo containers come in a wide
and painful variety of sizes.  My senior thesis project at UC
Berkeley in Naval Architecture was a 4500 TEU (Twenty-foot container
equivalent) jumbo sized containership for the pacific rim traffic.
I know more about this than anyone ever should...

Containers come in one width: 8 feet.  [This is going to be discussed
in feet because that's what the standards were written in and it all
comes out even that way...]

Containers have several lengths: 10 feet, 20 feet, 40 feet, 45 feet,
48 feet, and there are jumbo lengths out to 80 feet available
special order.

Containers come in several heights: 8 feet, 8 feet 6 inches,
and 9 feet 6 inches.  I think there are a few oddball 9 footers
around too but I think those were mostly abandoned.

The *most standard* containers are the 20 and 40 by either
8 feet or 8'6" high, with a fair number of the 45 footers thrown
in for good measure.  But you have to be able to handle all
of them at cargo handling facilities, much to the disgust of
many engineers whose lives would be amazingly more easy if there
were less types of them to worry about.

>The "longer than tall" is for several reasons. First, because that way
>they won't fall over if you leaving one sitting on a loading dock and
>something bumps it. Second, because when you open the door on the end,
>it's a lot easier to to deal with something that is long, than tall if
>you are loading or unloading it. Finally, because long is better than
>tall for both surface and air transport (ie the way containers get
>moved to and from the port!)
>
>So, we could have containers that are 2x2x3.5, 2x2x7, and 2x2x14 (1, 2
>and 4 Td). But that 3.5 meter ceiling screws that up unless we stand
>them on end. Which we don't want to do. (containers are *always* "this
>end up" units!) And 2x2x14is just *way* too unweildy. 
>
>Current containers are either 2.5x2.5x7.5 or 2.5x2.5x8 (I'll have to
>check).  They screw up things too. 2.5 wide means you have to make all
>of the hold have widths that are a multiple of 4 squares. Yech.
>
>A "compromise" that might not be too bad is:
>
>full	3x3x6	(4 Td)
>half	3x3x3
>
>We can say the extra .5 meters is partly deck, and partly the "rollers"
>that the containers slide in and out on. It still requires a bit of
>extra planning on hold areas to make them multiples of 3 squares wide
>and long, but it works better than the other two ways.

I have an alternate suggestion.  Let's have two classes of 
container, small and jumbo container.  Jumbo containers are a full
deck high, 3.5 meters, and are used for packing large objects which
need that much space or very large lots etc.  Small containers are
half that height, 1.75 meters (about 5 foot 9" tall).  They are used
when getting things down from the top of the container would be
inconvenient, etc.  You can crouch down and walk in them if you
have to, (even me, and I'm 6'5"/195cm).  Standard widths would
be 2 meters for the small containers and 4 meters for the jumbo.
Jumbo containers would come in 6 and 9 and 12 meter long standard
sizes, making them 12 and 18 and 24 displacement tons respectively.
Small containers are 5.5, 8.5, and 11.5 meters long.  There are
standardized frames which are 0.25 meter long and interlock 4 small
containers together at the end, and provide the handling and
tie-down interfaces of jumbo containers, so you pack 4 same length
small containers headed to the same destination together and
then handle it like a jumbo until it gets there.  The small
containers would be 2.75, 4.25, and 5.75 displacement tons
respectively for the short medium and long units.

So, as a short table:
	Length		Disp Tons	M^3	Usable
Jumbo	6		12		168	165
4m w	9		18		252	248
3.5m h	12		24		336	330

Small	5.5		2.75		38.5	35
2m w	8.5		4.25		59.5	55
1.75m h	11.5		5.75		80.5	75

- -george william herbert
gherbert@crl.com

------------------------------

From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:51:10 -0700
Subject: Re: Piracy

>From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
>Precis: 
>Away from the borders, interstellar piracy is impractical, uneconomic, 
>and impossibly risky--It Just Ain't Gonna Happen.  It's about as 
>feasible as pirating Mississippi River barges with armed gunboats.  

The problem with this is that it's more like a pacific-ocean sized
version of the Agean Sea than a single river.  

>Quick Summary of the main points: 
> 
>(1) Pirate ships require a base.  No world within the Imperium will 
>knowingly support pirates, because doing so means a Impy Navy CruRon 
>brings a regiment of Imperial Marines to change your government for you.  
>In fact, they'll do that to worlds *outside* the Imperium (Tarkine being 
>the classic example).  So, a pirate base must be: 
>     (a) outside the Imperium, on a world secure from Imperial attack. 
>It has to be close enough to the Imperium for the pirate ships to be 
>able to reach those rich targets inside the Imperium.  This does work, 
>to a limited extent.  It's one of the reasons why merchant ships in the 
>Spinward Marches, Reaver's Deep, and other border sectors tend to go 
>armed.  Of course, pirate bases outside the Imperium provide the 
>Imperial Navy character generation track with that exciting event: Raid. 
>In my campaign, a lot of those non-wartime "raids" were punitive raids 
>against corsair bases in the Vargr Extents.  Of course, your pirate base 
>could be protected by a world that the Imperium doesn't dare raid 
>without starting a major war, like the Sword Worlds or the Zhodani 
>worlds.  In that case, if you are acting with the collusion of an 
>interstellar government, you aren't a pirate, you're a commerce raider 
>and/or privateer, and there's a state of limited space war going on. 

Makes sense.

>     (b) Or, the base could be hidden inside the Imperium.  This might 
>work, but it doesn't take too much intelligence work to trace shipments 
>of things like spare parts for starships, heavy machinery for repair 
>yards, trained technicians, etc.  Room for an adventure, though.  Sooner 
>or later, the base will be found, if it is within the Imperium, where 
>Imperial Navy AND system squadrons have free rein to patrol and 
>investigate. 

Ahh, you're going to regularly patrol all 100,000 asteroids, 10E6
kuiper belt objects, 10E8 or so oort cloud objects, etc?
8-)

>(2) Yes, space can be protected that well deep inside the Imperium.  
>Everytime we've played a campaign game of TCS, we've been struck by how 
>many thousands of fast, heavily armed, utterly deadly Fighters even a 
>Pop 8 world can produce as a small part of the total military budget.  
>And for a Hi-Pop world, enough fighters and fighter carriers to blanket 
>every system in the same subsector is mere pocket change.   
>     For hunting pirates down, you need a jump drive; for patrolling 
>and defending a system against the small vessels usually used by 
>pirates, there's nothing as effective as a well-designed long-range 
>fighter.  BTW, the classic SDB is a long-range fighter on steroids; 
>check out the performance.  Small (thus cheap), no jump drive, as heavy 
>a suite of weapons as you can stuff in it, accomodations for long 
>patrols, and pulls lots of Gs.  I always preferred a 50-75 ton heavy 
>fighter myself; cheaper yet, build faster, better DefMod, but you get 
>the idea. 

This, possibly, is the killer problem.  Systems should not be
sparsely defended.

>(3) I don't approve of completely unarmed ships. Put one tiny laser or 
>missile launcher on them; that makes it uneconomical for piracy.  (Hint: 
>compare the cost of repairing the pirate ships J-drive, M-drive or other 
>vital systems vs. the salvage from the wrecked merchant ship and its 
>cargo).  But, you can get away with it if you stick to heavily patrolled 
>systems (like those on major trade routes). 

This would tend to indicate that pirates should be more heavily
armored than we see typically, but not rule them out.

>But modern freighters aren't.  How many deck guns have you seen on 
>supertankers? 
 
There is no piracy threat to speak of to modern merchant vessels.
If there was, you'd see small deck gun installations and a few
Gabriel or equivalent SSMs on them.

[Some of us naval architects think ahead 8-) ]

- -george william herbert
gherbert@crl.com

------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 15:29:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #162

>>Which brings up something I've been wondering for quite some time. 
>>Is  there any mention anywhere in all the materials for Traveller of
>>how the  Imperium makes money?  What sort of taxes do they levy?  I'd

In my campaign, the human empire earned it's money by loaning out
cash to build starships.  Over 40 years the the total cost to the
owner is twice the cost to build.  Not bad income.

Also, 2000cr per passenger per jump was realy 1000cr tax and
1000cr for supplies.  Same for low traveller, half was tax the 
other half was for supplies and repairs.

They also charged a tax on goods stored at the starport.
Additionally, the empire ran it's own bank, which charged
for services (fees based on one social standing).

- -Daniel




>And why is that?  It is because you are highly computer-literate.  Psioncs defy
>current logic, as does gravitic technology, but they don't seem to bother
you in

To defy logic does not in itself mean something is impossible.  Take a
flashlight
back two hundred years and the best minds of that time would not be able to 
explain it to you.  However, once they learned the principles it would no longer
defy logic.

I can easily imagine two people being able to communicate by means I can not
explain.  I can not imagine a computer program (no matter how smart)
flying through space looking for old XTs to infect.

- -Daniel




------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 16:42:02 PDT
Subject: Re: Virus Complaints

Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com> writes [snipped]
>Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 08:20:32 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Re: Virus Complaints
>
>> From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
>> Subject: Re: Virus by Email
>> 
>>   <sigh> That still doesn't explain how sensors can accept virii. In
order
>> to enter, there has to be some way for code to be transferred from
the
>> sensors to the CPU, and the CPU has to be told to execute this code.

>> SENSORS DO NOT ACCEPT *****CODE***** THEREFOR THEY DO NOT ACCEPT
VIRII. Is
>> that clear enough for you yet??
>
>Um, no, not for me at least. Who says that sensors don't accept code?
>Nortel is planning a new phone set that will be dynamically 
>reconfigurable by having it able to accept Java code d/loaded over the

>phone line. There's a LCD display attatched, so it can be programmed
>to let you pay bills, buy tickets for sporting events, etc.
>
>So, if phones can do it, why not sensors?
>

Sensors do it. Modern sensors are programmed for a variety of reasons.
The primary reason is that of optimizing for the current environmental
conditions. If the concept here is that the sensors are like huge
telescopes or massive radar dishes, think again. The current trend is
for these things to get smaller. 

With synthetic aperature processing (a sensor function), the code
requirements increase and physical aperature requirements decrease
dramatically.

For simplicity sake, these things are left out of Traveller *canon*.
IMHO the sensor sizes for the ship design sequence are way too big.
Bumping into current physics aside, what we could resolve with a
football-sized antenna, your friendly black and white can do with a
handheld coffe-can device. And, this jump was in the last 50 years.

The ability to do this is due to software. When you integrate a sensor
into an integrated avionics system (eg. for fire control) the sensor
must be programmable to meet the needs of the integrated system.

If you do not believe me, Lockheed Martin in Georgia is hiring software
engineers for both intergated avionics and sensor controls.

- --norm fenlason


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 16:36:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#154] Virus

T::>        Hmm... standardized machine code, runs on multiple platforms, can be
 ::>used maliciously on people who unknowingly access it ... OMIGOD! Virus is
 ::>Java! Sun takes over the world in the future!

 <CHOKE> <SPRAY> <SPUTTER> Mmmf!  You bastard!  Now I have to clean
 partly used food out of this keyboard _again_!

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Maybe you need to get run over by the Clue Bus.

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 16:36:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#154] Virus by Email

T::>   To try to make this more clear, let's compare US and Russian computer
 ::>design. The American computers and Russian computers have *totally*
 ::>different form factors, and even less compatible architectural
 ::>differences. This is from two different societies on Earth at more-or-less
 ::>the same tech-level (Traveller scale).

 Hate to pop your bubble, but it seems that almost _all_ of the
 Russian/Soviet designs were compatible ripoffs of DEC, IBM, or
 Apple designs.  Now, had you said East German, you'd have made
 your point better - not that you had to; it was well made (and it
 was made just as well when I criticised the concept when T:TNE
 first came out) and I agree with it.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.....


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #168
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 26 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 169

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: TNE 
         2. Re: RC campaigns
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #164
         4. Re: Virus... Just Say No! ;-)
         5. RE: Traveller Alien Word Generation Pgm
         6. Re: TNE 
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #161
         8. Aging in T4
         9. Inexplicably missing part of post
        10. VIRUS
        11. Cargo Containers
        12. Stere
        13. Re: TNE differences
        14. FFS light, final form
        15. Re: Surface Area on Airframe hulls
        16. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #161
        17. Re: Imperial funding
        18. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #162
        19. Re: TNE 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 20:57:38 GMT
Subject: Re: TNE 

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:47:28 -0500 (CDT), Joe Walsh wrote:

> And the card deck stuck with another aspect of CT: all materials were 
> things you'd commonly have around the house.  No weird dice, just the 
> six-siders most people have and which are available at any drugstore, 
> home-made counters suggested for use rather than an emphasis on figures, 
> etc. 

I was actually quite disappointed when I heard that T4 would be using only
six-sided dice.  How this is going to work with FF&Sv2, BL, and BR, I don't
know.  I agree that d30's and the d100's (made by Game Science) were probably
taking this need a little too far, but the fact remains that you can't easily
create every result-curve using (strictly) d6's.  Shadowrun suffers because it
is firmly rooted in a system using strictly six-sided dice.  Granted, six-sided
dice are more common, but polyhedral dice have been around for over twenty
years-- I doubt there are many people that do not own a few or have ready access
to some.  White Wolf's Storyteller series uses d10's exclusively, and is one of
the most successful RPG series available.  Polyhedral dice (especially d%, which
most people take to rather easily) shouldn't be shunned just because it means
that they aren't readily available.

If you want to get anal about lead figures, check out Games Workshop (Wadda ya
mean I can't use dis guy if I don't 'ave a "official" painted miniature?).
Yikes!

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 14:02:53 -0700
Subject: Re: RC campaigns

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> Or how about a pocket empire resisting the incursion of the RC.  I
> believe that GDW was getting ready to set up the Empire of Solee for
> this role...
> This is exactly what Solee was all about.  There's lots of hints and such 
scattered through out the books about what's going on with Solee.  I know 
that the RC gets into a protracted war with Solee, which it wins 
eventually with the help of Sandman.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 14:04:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #164

Paul Walker wrote:

> >cardboard counters rather than expensive metal migures too.
>                                                 ^^^^^^^
> 
>Yeah, I hated buying all those outrageously priced migures.  They ran my
>credit card bill up so high!!!  :-)

And they're so hard to paint properly.  8)

Derek

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 14:13:02 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus... Just Say No! ;-)

William F. Hostman wrote:
> 
>The Ziru Sirkaa would still exist, again, like the regency, in a tightly
>closed border situation; not that you can't enter,you just can't leave 
>and come back.

I must have missed this one.  Who are these guys?

>Margret and here faction kept pulling back... why would she stop? 
>Probably not enough ships to stop the rampant piracy. 
This reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask anyway's (<-- one 
of those west coast words not found in any dictionary).  I know Margret 
was busy doing tons of exploration work behind that little rift, Glimmer 
Drift?  Any idea what she was doing back there or specualtion on what 
happend to her during the collapse?  If I remember right Anaxis is a jump 
 7 or 8 to get it so there has to be calibration points.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:17:19 -0500
Subject: RE: Traveller Alien Word Generation Pgm

unsubscribe traveller druid@datatek.com

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 14:29:45 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE 

Joe Walsh wrote:

 
>So far, my feelings on the rules in general are: 
>2)  I love the section on "Using the Rules," especially the first three
>paragraphs.  This sort of sentiment should be included in all
>role-playing games.

It should, shouldn't it.
 
>3)  Gadzooks, the editing was bad.  Just reading a few sections, I've
>found a lot of grammatical errors and typos.  Now, I'm not a fanatic
>about this.  Professionally published novels, with distribution far
>greater than any RPG, have errors in them.  And, this is a BIG book.
>Still, I hope IG does a better job of editing.

I'm starting to think GDW did this on purpose.  I've been looking through 
some old MT stuff.  GACK!!!
 
> 4)  Characters: 
>         d)  The characteristics are screwy.  Agility instead of
>dexterity...fine.  But adding charisma?  And the whole idea of putting
>Social Standing off to the side is rather silly.  Were they afraid of
>making it seven basic characteristics(or eight, with psionics)? I admit
>I don't understand the thinking behind this. Maybe it will come clear as
>I read further.

I'm guessing they threw Charisma in there as a way of moderating social 
skills.  A number of the player's I have known are completely incapable 
of interacting with others on a one to one level.  Perhaps that's why 
they threw it in.  Lets face it though everyone dumps their lowest skill 
level into Charisma.
Social Standing in TNE is really important only in generating money, it 
doesn't convey any social advantages in either the RC or the Regency, 
despite the fact that nobility is still around in the Reg, they've had 
their powers chopped so bad they may as well not be noble's.
 

> 5)  NPC's:  They give the GM a way to randomly determine[snip]
>motivations are more important than their looks.  But, again, if you're
>trying to make a very complete RPG (as they obviously were, with that 
>1.5 page initiative section, among others), why not throw in a table for 
>NPC appearance generaton, with modifiers for motivation/personality 
>type.

I've always used the HarnMaster appearance generator.

Derek

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 22:30 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #161

In-Reply-To: <199606260240.WAA06261@NS.MPGN.COM>

>From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
>Subject: Re: Death during Character Generation
>On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:
> 
>> Tom Ellis wrote:
>> What about the Solomani?  As far as I remember, and this is from a long
>> time back 10+ years, the Solomani were masters of genetic manipulation,
> 
>The Solomani certainly had a good handle on genetic engineering, but I
>never saw any note on it used for longevity purposes.  That wouls be a
>much higher tech level thing than cloning even, tinkering with our base
>code as it were.
 
AFAIK, scientists are talking about it now. I wouldn't give it more than
another 100 years before we can do something like that.

High TLs (and Soc Standings) should give a DM on the aging table (and low
ones, for that matter).

                      --------=====OOO=====--------
Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."

------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 15:42:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Aging in T4

Joe Walsh wrote:

>On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:
>> Actually, without considering artificial or cloned organ replacements, it
>> seems that the max will be around 100 to 150, and that is just extended
>> life, aging still sets in at around the same time in terms of lost
>> physical capacity, etc.

>Really?  I'm not up on this stuff, obviously.  Still, one would hope 
>that, in the Far Future (where virii can hop from one computer to 
>another, maintaining conciousness without hardware to execute on, etc. 
>etc.) life would be extended a bit more than that!  But, if that's the 
>"planned obscelecence" built into the human machine, that's the way it 
>is.  Hmm.

I hope T4 is going to have more sensible aging rules.  The idea that
everyone TL 0-TL 15 begins aging at 34 stretches belief rather far. When
I run I tend to modify the again charts so that characters from Industrial
and Pre-Stellar planets age at the listed rate.  Characters from Early
Stellar start again one term later and gain a +1 bonuses to their aging
rolls, Characters from Average Stellar Societies Start aging two terms
later and gain +1 to again rolls, and characters from High Stellar
societies start again 3 terms later and gain a +1 bonus to aging rolls. 

Anyone know if T4 is going to make Hi tech medicine actually feel hi tech?

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com




------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 15:49:47 MST7
Subject: Inexplicably missing part of post

In my message titled Mileu 1200...Virus plotting ideas...

A chunk of a sentence was inexplicably chopped off twixt my editor 
and mailer program...

What I appeared to say:

>This leads to my speculative points:

>a)  The Hivers had samples of the Cymbeline chips prior to the release
>of Virus. They were studying them with the intentions, probably, of
>using them or some system derived from their study of them  to
>introduce some rather powerful TL 17 verging on 18

is supposed to say:

a)  The Hivers had samples of the Cymbeline chips prior to the
release of Virus. They were studying them with the intentions,
probably, of using them or some system derived from their study of
them  to introduce some rather powerful TL 17 verging on 18
computers_big bucks in those things. They also probably help quite a
bit with those psycho-history simulations ;-)

Bruce

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 18:00:36 -0500
Subject: VIRUS

I'm curious as to where the idea the TNE's Virus is a program came from?  I
think I remember reading somewhere that it was not the program, but the chip
itself.  I do see the problem that sensors and communicators would be
difficult to infect through, but I don't ever remember reading any TNE
material that refers to the Virus as a program, as a matter of fact I think
that somewhere it says that Virus is different than the virus' we see today
because our virus are programs where Virus is the chip itself.

Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 16:07:02 -0600
Subject: Cargo Containers

On 06/26/96 at 04:21 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>> My understanding is that standard deckplans will be 2'x2'x3.5' for T
>> So each hex/square will be 1 displacement ton.  Folks that are
>> designing standard sized containers, fixtures, etc might want to kee
>> that in mind. 

>This presents a problem. Cargo containers are longer than they are
>tall, *and* have a square cross section.

That's one reason I brought it up. <g>

>A "compromise" that might not be too bad is:

>full	3x3x6	(4 Td)
>half	3x3x3

Just because the standard square is 2x2x3.5 (1dt), doesn't mean the
overhead has to be 3.5!  A cargo ship wouldn't have 3.5m overheads
anyway, that's be too low.  What about designing cargo holes to be 7
meters high?  Now a square is 2x2x7 (2dt).

Standard containers could come in the following sizes:

    Size    Cargo   Floor
   H&WxL   Storage  Space   
   -----------------------------------------------------------
1  2x3.5     1dt   2x4=8m,    Stack 3 high,   .50 m walk space 2  2x7      
2dt   2x8=16m,   Stack 3 high,  1.00 m walk space   3  2.8x7.14  4dt  
3x8=24m,   Stack 2 high,   .86 m walk space 4  3x6.22    4dt  
3x8=24m,   Stack 2 high,  1.78 m walk space 5  3x7.77    5dt  
3x8=24m,   Stack 2 high,   .24 m walk space 6  3.45x5.88 5dt  
4x6=24m,   Stack 2 high,   .12 m walk space  7  3.4x7.26  6dt  
4x8=32m,   Stack 2 high,   .76 m walk space 8  4x7       8dt  
4x8=32m,   Stack 1 high,  1.00 m walk space 9  6x9.33   24dt  
6x10=60m,  Stack 1 high,   .67 m walk space A  6.9x10.6 36dt  
8x12=96m,  Stack 1 high,  1.40 m walk space

(I could have made number 7, 3.5 square, and number A, 7 square, but
you need a little wiggle room between the containers and the
overhead.)

I wouldn't expect *all* these sizes to be standard.  I wanted to give
everybody a look at some options.  Which ones would *you* use for
cargo?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 15:00:49 -0600
Subject: Stere

On 06/26/96 at 02:10 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>Kiloliter is a perfectly valid metric unit. So is cubic meter. And so
>is stere, which is one of the original metric units:

>weight		gram
>length		meter
>area		are  (as in hectare)
>solid volume	stere
>liquid volume	liter

Learn something every day!  <g> 

I'd never heard of Stere before, looked it up, Stere = 1 cubic meter,
sure enough.

So now, how do we abbreviate stere?  Is it "st", as in 1400st meaning
1400 cubic meters?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 14:42:27 -0600
Subject: Re: TNE differences

On 06/26/96 at 12:10 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>Of course if the Imperium had *intended* the IFF to have that sort of
>backdoor (perhaps just to load a routine to dump some info like the
>last few stops, and then erase itself) then it's possible. But for
>them to have that backdoor installed on their *own* ships doesn't
>make sense.

The only way I can imagine "Virus" working is if a consistent and
universial system for computer systems was in place.  The advanced
computers (at least) would have to be designed to routinely exchanged
data *and* code, desgined to have
self-modifing hardware and software capability, and be designed by
people stupid enough to leave a hole in system security large enough
for...for "Virus" to drive through.  Could something like this happen? 
Sure, we're dumb enough to do it. <g>

For gaming purposes, I would accept that it *could* happen...just like
I accept that jump drive could happen.  This doesn't mean I really
believe it, but this is a game...why argue?  <g>

Personally, I never used the big V in any games.  I collapsed the
Imperium without it. War, stupidity, and economic chaos did the trick
just fine for me.  Besides, I'd killed the possibility of advanced
computers in my universe anyway, so "Virus" just wasn't possible.

But again, why argue?  Don't like it, don't use it!

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 17:23:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FFS light, final form

I downloaded the final draft of FFS light from

http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/Final.doc

I don't know what format it was in, but it certainly didn't work on MS Works.
Is an ascii, PDF, or MS Word version available?

- -Thanks


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 18:27:31 -0600
Subject: Re: Surface Area on Airframe hulls

At 06:15 pm 6/25/96 -0700, you wrote:
>James Lindsay wrote:
>> 
>>I was just curious why there is a Surface Area multiplier for hulls 
>>equipped with an Airframe hull?  Wouldn't the extra area gained be 
>>required as a lifting surface, leaving the usable surface area (for 
>>weapons, sensors, etc.) the same?  Being somewhat new to FF&S (and its 
>>grandsons QSDS and SSDS), I'm discovering little things every day.
>
>This is a good question.  Let me look it up...  According to FF&S there 
>is no difference, wonder why.  There's more internal structure and more 

        According to the errata published for FF&S, "Surface area in square
meters is the hull material colume *(after hull form and airframe
modifications but without adjustment for hull thickness)* mulitplied by
100." (Text between '*' added).

        The volume modified by hull form and airframe but not thickness is
simply MV*MVM*1.3. 
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 19:55:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #161

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, John M. Gardner wrote:

> I always saw the Imperium as an organized trubutary state arrangement.  The
> subsectors collect trubute from the individual worlds, the sectors collect
> from the subsectors, and the Imperium collects from the sectors.  It just
> kind of fit in with the nobility system.  This way the Imperium doesn't need
> to worry about how to collect the taxes from its underlings and requires
> less bureaucracy.  After all, if you don't pay the tribute you don't get
> protected when those nasty pirates and Vargr raiders begin to pick on you.
> (and big brother doesn't break your kneecaps)

So, ultimately, under this system it would be up to the individual worlds 
(which might be further subdivided into smaller political units, which 
might be further subdivided...) which items are taxed.  Still, each level 
would decide how much tax is due from the next lower level.  This implies 
the higher level would still have to have some basis for taxation.  Hmmm.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 19:58:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Imperial funding

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Steven Bonneville wrote:

> The old version of _Striker_ notes that planets pay something like 30% of
> their local military budget to the Imperium to support the Imperial 
> military.  This comes to about one percent of gross planetary product in
> most cases.  Based on separate calculations by Wildstar and myself, this
> part of the budget alone is about TCr 2000 to 5000 annually.  This figure
> would be split among the salaries, ships, operating equipment, supplies, 
> and facilities all the Imperial armed forces, and probably includes 
> "colonial" subsector reserves raised by the dukes as well.

Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter.  Taxation is based on the 
military spending of the planet in question.  

What if the planet decides not to have a military?  Or to operate only a 
tiny military?  Presumably, the Imperium's ships are there to protect 
against interstellar conquest at least to some degree.  In other words, 
how much military spending is considered enough to the Imperium?  How do 
they decide?

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 20:01:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #162

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Daniel wrote:

> In my campaign, the human empire earned it's money by loaning out
> cash to build starships.  Over 40 years the the total cost to the
> owner is twice the cost to build.  Not bad income.

No, not bad at all. Probably angered the financial institutions a bit, 
but it's not like they could do much about it. :)

> Also, 2000cr per passenger per jump was realy 1000cr tax and
> 1000cr for supplies.  Same for low traveller, half was tax the 
> other half was for supplies and repairs.

So, there was no profit to be made on selling passage, eh?  Hmmm.  Not 
much incentive to run a passenger-carrying ship.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 20:06:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: TNE 

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, James Lindsay wrote:

> I was actually quite disappointed when I heard that T4 would be using only
> six-sided dice.  How this is going to work with FF&Sv2, BL, and BR, I don't
> know.  I agree that d30's and the d100's (made by Game Science) were probably
> taking this need a little too far, but the fact remains that you can't easily
> create every result-curve using (strictly) d6's.  Shadowrun suffers because it

True. Anyone who has ever made a serious attempt at creating a system for 
use with Traveller has run into that one.  2D6 isn't as lousy as D&D's 
3D6 curve, but it still falls far short of what is needed.  For instance, 
there is no easy way to make a roll that gives the player a 50/50 
chance.  7+ gives a better-than-50% chance, and 8+ gives a worse-than-50% 
chance.  That always bugged me.

I've been partial to 2D12 for quite a while, but that's probably just 
me.  The same problems occur as with 2D6, but with less severity.


> is firmly rooted in a system using strictly six-sided dice.  Granted, six-sided
> dice are more common, but polyhedral dice have been around for over twenty
> years-- I doubt there are many people that do not own a few or have ready access
> to some.  White Wolf's Storyteller series uses d10's exclusively, and is one of
> the most successful RPG series available.  Polyhedral dice (especially d%, which
> most people take to rather easily) shouldn't be shunned just because it means
> that they aren't readily available.

Yeah, but I like the elegance of using one type of die for everything.  
It's not logical, but it appeals to me.


> If you want to get anal about lead figures, check out Games Workshop (Wadda ya
> mean I can't use dis guy if I don't 'ave a "official" painted miniature?).
> Yikes!

Yep, GW is pretty blatant in its merchandizing.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 26 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 170

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Cargo Containers
         2. Re: TNE 
         3. Re: Re: Pirates and what the Navy is for..
         4. Re: [T96#154] Virus
         5. Re: FFS light, final form
         6. Re: Cargo Containers
         7. Proposed Rules for Age Effects
         8. Size of Imperial Navy (semi-long), actually rather long
         9. Re: 20 thoughts on virus
        10. Larry Hadley has gone to far.
        11. Re: Size of Imperial Navy (semi-long), actually rather long
        12. Re: Hopes for T4

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 01:08:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Cargo Containers

On Wed, 26 Jun 96 16:07:02 -0600, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Just because the standard square is 2x2x3.5 (1dt), doesn't mean the
> overhead has to be 3.5!  A cargo ship wouldn't have 3.5m overheads
> anyway, that's be too low.  What about designing cargo holes to be 7
> meters high?  Now a square is 2x2x7 (2dt).

But carbo containers must still be allowed to fit into ships with only a 3.5m
tall ceiling (more like 3m plus 0.5m for pipes, air ducts, lighting, etc) just
in case.  Such an example might be the CT version of the Empress-class far
trader or the aft bay of a Sulieman-class scout/courier.  When drawing deckplans
for a ship's cargo bay, I often recalculate the area of the cargo bay after
substituting a more manageable ceiling height.  After all, it would make more
sense *game wise* to design a cargo bay around a standard container size than
the other way around.  This way, there would be less wasted space.

A 2m by 2m by 4m container (1 Disp ton) would work nicely in both applications
(3.5m vs. 7m ceiling).  It would have to be a little bit larger than a 2x2x3.5m
displacement ton, to make up for the volume of the container itself.  Three of
these containers could be stacked on top of each other to fit within a 7m high
cargo bay.

A 3m by 3m by 8m container (5 Disp tons) would also be fine, fitting beneath the
suspended ceilings of 3.5m high cargo bays.  By your calculations, it also would
be slightly larger than 5 disp tons to allow for the material volume of the
container.  Two of these containers could be stacked on top of each other to fit
within a 7m high cargo bay, as well.

I assume that we will be allowed to "fudge" our deckplans by 10-20% like we were
allowed to with previous versions of Traveller.  I wouldn't worry about it too
much  8-)


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 20:10:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: TNE 

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> I'm guessing they threw Charisma in there as a way of moderating social 
> skills.  A number of the player's I have known are completely incapable 
> of interacting with others on a one to one level.  Perhaps that's why 
> they threw it in.  Lets face it though everyone dumps their lowest skill 
> level into Charisma.

You know, that could be it.  Esp. in the case of players or the referee 
playing a character whose gender is opposite of his/her own, doing a 
romantic scene with another participant.  Never bothered me, but our 
group was pretty tight and not into the whole juvinile attitude about 
such things.

But, you're right, that sort of one-on-one interaction is probably a 
problem for a lot of people.


> Social Standing in TNE is really important only in generating money, it 
> doesn't convey any social advantages in either the RC or the Regency, 
> despite the fact that nobility is still around in the Reg, they've had 
> their powers chopped so bad they may as well not be noble's.

Ah, now it makes sense.  I didn't know that social standing took such a 
back seat in TNE, but that makes sense.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 18:15:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Re: Pirates and what the Navy is for..

On 26 Jun 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> >I don't recall seeing anything about [Imperial taxes] in the rules..can't
> remember
> >anything from the journals either..humm.  Personally, I figured the
> >Imperium took a cut out of every transaction that went through a
> >starport.  There was a Imperial agent at every starport, just to make
> >sure the Emperor got his piece, the Duke got his, the Baron got
> >his...and maybe a little extra for the agent.  <g>
>
> I recall reading somewhere that the Imperium taxed member worlds, and how the
> member worlds met those taxes was up to them.  I can't locate the reference,
> and frankly am not willing to search through every published Traveller book
> to find it.

The *Regency* taxes heirarchially (surprise), which makes a lot of sense
as it allows a great deal of tax burden realignment on all levels.  I.e.
The Regency taxes the subsectors which tax the systems which tax the
planets which tax the states, etc, ad nauseum.

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 19:37:55 -0600
Subject: Re: [T96#154] Virus

At 04:36 pm 6/26/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>T::>        Hmm... standardized machine code, runs on multiple platforms,
can be
> ::>used maliciously on people who unknowingly access it ... OMIGOD! Virus is
> ::>Java! Sun takes over the world in the future!
>
> <CHOKE> <SPRAY> <SPUTTER> Mmmf!  You bastard!  Now I have to clean
> partly used food out of this keyboard _again_!

        Don't you have a "no food or drink within three feet" sign posted by
your computer ...?
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 19:45:04 -0600
Subject: Re: FFS light, final form

At 05:23 pm 6/26/96 -0700, you wrote:
>I downloaded the final draft of FFS light from
>
>http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/Final.doc
>
>I don't know what format it was in, but it certainly didn't work on MS Works.
>Is an ascii, PDF, or MS Word version available?

        Hmm ... it is MS Word (version 6.0 ... I don't know if MS Works can
read that?)
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 19:45:08 -0600
Subject: Re: Cargo Containers

At 01:08 am 6/27/96 GMT, jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) wrote:
>I assume that we will be allowed to "fudge" our deckplans by 10-20% like we
were
>allowed to with previous versions of Traveller.  I wouldn't worry about it too
>much  8-)

        NO! NO FUDGING ALLOWED! YOU MUST BE PRECISE IN EVERYTHING!

        (Ducks, runs for cover) Just kidding! (Doesn't quite make it) THWAP! Ow!
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 20:54:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Proposed Rules for Age Effects

Here's a proposed aging rule.  It's something I came up with rather 
quickly, based on my own ideas and those of Andrew Boulton and John 
Snead, in addition to general discussions of aging and, of course, the 
original Traveller rules.  

Please comment on this and add to it, so we can hammer out something that 
works well.

Note:  For TNE, subtract 1 from all listed ages, since TNE starts at 17 
while CT and MT start at age 18.

=========================================================================
				Aging

Beginning at age 34 (the end of Term 4), aging effects begin to occur.  
Throughout this discussion, Terms will be used rather than listing the 
actual age or listing both.  


For terms 4-9, the saving throw is 8+, the possible loss is -1, and the 
affected characteristics are Strength, Dexiterity(Agility), and Endurance.

For terms 10-15, the saving throw is 9+, the possible loss is -1, and the 
affected characteristics are Strength, Dexterity(Agility), and Endurance.

For terms 16-21, the saving throw is 10+, the possible loss is -2, and the 
affected characteristics are Strength, Dexterity(Agility), Endurance, and 
Intelligence (possible loss of -1 from Int only)

For terms 22+, the saving throw is 11+, the possible loss is -2, and 
the affected characteristics are Strength, Dexterity(Agility), Endurance, 
and Intelligence.


Modifiers:

	Tech Level:
		0-3: -2 on saving throw
		4-5: -1 on saving throw
	      11-12: +1 on saving throw
	      13-15: +1 on saving throw, possible loss is always -1.

	Social Standing:
		0-4: -1 on saving throw
		A-F: +1 on saving throw

====================================================================
Notes:

Using this table, and assuming that PC's are going to have TL 13+ 
facilities available most of the time, it breaks out like this:

Terms		Average point loss per characteristic
4-9		2.52 points
10-15		3.54 points
16-21		4.38 points
22-28		5.02 points
		===========
Total Loss:	15.46 on Str, Dex/Agi, and Con

This allows for the possiblity of a character living forever (always 
getting lucky rolls), but it is a slim chance.  An average character 
getting average rolls will live for about 86 years if s/he lives in a TL 
13-15 society.  An average character living in a low tech socity will 
have a much shorter life span, on average.
========================================================================


Well, that's it.  What do you think?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:19:24 -0500
Subject: Size of Imperial Navy (semi-long), actually rather long

Referencing the Rebellion Sourcebook, each sub-sector had one numbered and
one reserve fleet.  Each numbered fleet was supposed to be composed of
between 50 and 200 ships organized into Squadrons of about 20-25 ships. 
The Squadrons were organized into 5 types, BatRons, CruRons, ScoutRons,
AssaultRons, and TankerRons.  

I would expect a 25 ship BatRon to be composed of 8-12 BBs, and 12-15
Auxiliaries.  The Ron was supposed to be a totally independent fighting
unit with all the support ships it needed to survive.  The 12-15 support
ships were most likely (IMHO) 1-2 Fleet Carriers, 1-2 Cruisers (not Heavy
but Light or Strike), 6-10 Escorts, and a Fleet Tanker.  A standard BatRon
would most likely have assigned to it 5-15 couriers, and at least 1 combat
assault unit. (per info from Rebellion and Fighting Ships of the Shattered
Imperium).  Supplement 9 Fighting ships says that a Tigress BatRon had 8
BBs in it, and there was only 1 in the Spinward Marches.

The CruRon would be about the same size with 8-12 Cruisers either Heavy,
Armoured, Strike, or Light.  The CruRon could be homogeneous, or mixed in
types.  I could see 4 Heavy, 4 Armored, 2 Light and 2 Strike in a 12 ship
CruRon, or an 8 Armored CruRon.  The CruRon would also have Carrier
Support, most likely 2-4 Light Carriers, 10-15 escorts, and maybe 1-4
Tankers.  It may or may not have the ground assault group, but it most
likely would have a large supply group to rearm the Cruisers for Planetary
Bombardment.

The ScoutRon is supposed to be made up of ISS ships, and little other than
that is ever stated, except to say that scouts are usually assigned to
other Rons as needed.

The AssaultRon's job is supposed to be to conduct an opposed landing on
another world, and support the ongoing operations of that assault.  I
would expect large numbers of large Bulk carriers, along with Assault
Landers, and troop transports.

Lastly the TankerRon.  Supposedly these are to provide refueling service
to the other Ron's, a job that would imply that like the ScoutRon, they
are assigned as needed to other Rons.

So, if each Fleet has 2-10 Rons of 20-25 ships each, for roughly 150 ships
per fleet (on average), with 320 numbered fleets, and 320 reserve fleets,
then one could expect at the start of the Rebellion to have roughly
100,000 ships (with 50-60% being capital ships (Carriers, Cruisers, and
Battleships).  Of the Ships of the Line, they would likely break down into
10-20% Carriers, 50-60% Cruisers, and 20-40% Battleships.  So how about
5,000-12,000 Carriers (BTW carrying between 1.5-3.6 MILLION fighters),
then 25,000-36,000 Cruisers (which could carry in the neighborhood of
625,000-900,000 fighters (at 25 per Cruiser some carry some do not)), and
10,000-150,000 Battleships (most of which carried fighters in CT, not in
MT for anywhere from 1.5-22.5 MILLION fighters at 150 per ship, of course
it could be much less)

All in all we can see that the Imperial Navy is Huge! with 11,000 worlds
in the Imperium, they support a Navy of 10 ships per world, with about
half of those capital ships.  This would add up to anywhere from about
500,000 MCr just for the Capital Ships per World!!!  Now we know where
Trillion Credit Squadron gets its name from.  So with say an average cost
of 75,000 MCr per Capital Ship (allowing for a lower cost for reserve
fleets, and 50,000 Capital Ships, then how about a rough cost of
3,750,000,000 MCr., and with anywhere from 4-25 Million fighters at say
100 MCr each for a total cost of 420,000,000-2,500,000,000MCr for the
fighters.  Auxiliaries are just about impossible to add up due to the fact
that most are not even designed anywhere, but they would not be cheap. 
All in all, the Imperial Navy is so huge, it is no wonder that the
Rebellion went on for so long.

The other thing that this means is that there are lots of fighters in the
Imp Navy, and each one requires a pilot.  There might be a crew size of
1000 (CT) or 7,000 (MT) for BBs, and 500 (CT) or 1,500 (MT) from cruisers.
 This would add up to about 10-150 Million crew for the BBs, 25-36 Million
crew for the Cruisers under (CT), and 70-1,050 Million for BBs, and
37.5-54 Million Cruiser Crew (MT)  The Capital Ships then would have a
crew need of 35-190 Million crew plus fighters at 2 each under CT, and
120-1,100 Million crew in MT if the Imperium pays each crewmember just
2,000 Cr per month (low) then the Imperium would need anywhere from
80,000-2,200,000Mcr just for crew salaries (actually you can about double
this to include all the other personnel.)

In conclusion the Imperium would spent roughly 3,750,000,000MCr on Capital
Ships (say 1/2 that for all auxiliaries) for a total cost of
5,625,000,000MCr in ships, and 160,000-4,400,000MCr per Month on Salaries.
 This means that the Imperial Navy Spends at most 8% of its Hardware Value
on salaries each month.  I do not know if this is a feasible amount, and
this just sort of took off on its own.  Questions, Comments, I hope that
someone finds this interesting.

DCB
- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 19:45:17 -0700
Subject: Re: 20 thoughts on virus

At 10:40 PM 6/25/96 -0400, Larry raved:

>On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

>> 1. Virus is sentient.
>
>  Irrelevant.

"Irrelevant"?!  The only reason humans weren't wiped out ny baboons several
hundred years ago was we had developed the ability to plan.  

>  Explain how Virus takes control of a computer simply by "willing" it.

The very moment *you* explain how a jump drive works.

>  I'm sentient, yet I must still obey all the rules of computer
>programming when operating a computer. I fail to see what sentience has to
>do with this.

Larry, I must obey the laws of nature.  One of those laws states that if
your lymphatic system goes beserk you die within a year or two of Hodgkin's
Disease.  However, the *sentient* doctors at Stanford, used their
*sentience* to find a cure.  That is why I am alive today.  That is what
sentience is, the ability to make reasoned changes to your enviroment.  Who
is to say that Virus isn't capable of the same?

>> 5. The above mentioned Virus would have had the capeability to infect any
>> other computer system it came into contact with that it had the opportunity
>> to study about.
>
>  Not enough. There are many cases in published material where Virus
>simply invaded with no attempt to learn about the system, it is also
>implied in many places that Virus became sentient only after mutating.

Have you ever gone somewhere new and said to yourself "hmm  too warm/cold, I
best buy a swimsuit/sweater"?  That is what Virus does!  We aren't talking
about Lucan's geek coder corps waiting to ship upgrades, it modifies itself.
IT IS ALIVE!

>> 7. The Virus in the above Transponders would have to be able to interface 
>> with the alien computer systems as well as with the human ones.  
>
>  Yes - it *would* have to, that's one of the reason's this whole scenario
>stinks.

*Every* commercial aircraft in the world carries a transponder that meets a
US standard.  This is due to the dominance of the US as a trade
market/aircraft builder.  Anybody who ever wanted to do business with the
Imperium would have the correct transponder.  Over the years, it would
become a standard throughout charted space.

>> 8. Each time Virus is transmitted, the new starin is somewhat different in 
>> make up than the originator, and it is an entirely new "creature."  
>
>   Irrelevant.

As irrelevant as the fact that as a product of my genetic make-up *and*
enviroment I am a completely different creature from my father? or mother?
or siblings?  This is evolution in action!  Virus lives at a much greater
rate than us fleshies.. witness the rapid sub-class growth as the original
suiciders died off.

>> 9. the "bad virus" released from Lucan's research lab would have combined 
>> with the existing transponder virus to form a new creature.  
>
>  Irrelevant.

Why is it that everything you don't have an answer for is Irrelevant?

>> 11. As a sentient creture, it could learn from its past.  
>
>  Irrelevant.

This is too much.  Larry, would you go place you hand on a stove top that's
been running for about 20 minutes?  No?  Why not?  Because your previous
experience has taught you that you are susceptible to being burned.

>> 12. The virus would learn that it could only infect a similar computer 
>> structure through communications and sensors (which would be run through
>> computers or else why to you use a computer multiplier on the electronics 
>> crew figures).  
>
>  Nope. See my discussion with Derek - sensors make absolutely NO sense as
>vectors. Any attempt to try and rationlize this is doomed.

So is therefore forbidden?  Please, get a grip on what you are doing here.
You have dismissed a good portion of the arguements against you out of hand.
This smacks more of an attempt to bolster a weak position than a  real
attempt at discussion.

>> 16. The Solomani and the Imperium traded sectors so often that they would 
>> have wasted a lot of time if they couldn't interface each others equipment 
>> directly.  Not to mention the first axiom of war, "Know your enemy!"  
>
>  Define "directly". This still doesn't explain the ease of Virus taking
>over communications and force feeding code into a foreign computer and
>making that code execute. Security issues are well-understood now, why
>would they be less so in the future?

Can you say TL 16.  Virus was *new*.  Nobody had ever seen it before.  I'm
sure that ships had ICE-type software to stop downloading of conventional
virii into the ship's computer, but they were as helpless against Virus as
the Japanese were against the A-bomb.

>> 17.  The variety in the Aslan and the Technical expertise in the Hiver would 
>> have slowed the progression of virus in their areas (a known fact).  
>
>  Then why couldn't Imperial expertise stop the Virus? The Imperium was
>the *leader* in high-tech!

And at the tail end of a disasterous war, a shattered economy.  Virus was a
black project.  How many TL 15 worlds were left when the Virus spread?  How
long did it take for the factions to understand what had happened?  Dulinor
was dead on an obscure planet, Lucan disappers, and the lights go out all
over the Imperium..

Hardly the enviroment for an orderly investigation of the event.  Especially
when the primary carriers of Virus at the time were psychopathic warships!
# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 19:45:24 -0700
Subject: Larry Hadley has gone to far.

At 10:14 AM 6/26/96 -0400, Larry really wrote:

>  I know I said I wouldn't follow up any more, but here's a thought for
>you:
>
>  Can you catch AIDs throught he telephone? Do you really think TL-15
>telephones will make any difference in this? Virus infecting through
>sensors is EXACTLY this silly.

My God.

First off, if you don't know the difference between biology and computer
engineering, I suggest you gain possesion of a high school Bio text quickly.

HIV is a *virus* that causes a victim's immune system to shut down.  It can
only be transferred by bodily fluids.

It is fatal.  and not funny.

Larry, I have a Virus of sorts.. my own body spent the last year trying to
kill me.  No known cause for it, it just was.  I DO NOT appreciate ANY sort
of comparison between a fictional plot device and a disease that has claimed
too many friends.

AIDS through a telephone?  As about as bloody likely as you making a
rational arguement, or posting without the word "Irrelelvant" being misused.

(Apologies for the flame, but this just set me off.)

# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:24:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Size of Imperial Navy (semi-long), actually rather long

Good lord, David!  Whatever possessed you to go to all this work?!?! :)  

Seriously, this is interesting stuff.   I'm afraid I'm not so familiar 
with it all as to comment on a lot of it, so forgive me for liberally 
cutting your text (but rest assured, your message has been saved to disk 
in its entirety).


On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, David C.. Broussard wrote:

> Referencing the Rebellion Sourcebook, each sub-sector had one numbered and
> one reserve fleet.  Each numbered fleet was supposed to be composed of
> between 50 and 200 ships organized into Squadrons of about 20-25 ships. 
> The Squadrons were organized into 5 types, BatRons, CruRons, ScoutRons,
> AssaultRons, and TankerRons.  

Strangly, after about seven years of not playing MT, those Rons still 
seem familiar to me.  It's amazing how much "useless" information we 
store...

I especially remember the ScoutRons and TankerRons, because it didn't 
make sense to me to establish separate Rons for equipment and personnel 
that would simply be then divided amongst the other Rons as needed.  But 
then, I'm not familiar with the necessities of military tactics. Maybe 
someone with more knowledge in thi area can explain it?


> All in all we can see that the Imperial Navy is Huge! with 11,000 worlds

Yes, indeedy! Humongous!

> in the Imperium, they support a Navy of 10 ships per world, with about
> half of those capital ships.  This would add up to anywhere from about
> 500,000 MCr just for the Capital Ships per World!!!  Now we know where
> Trillion Credit Squadron gets its name from.  So with say an average cost
> of 75,000 MCr per Capital Ship (allowing for a lower cost for reserve
> fleets, and 50,000 Capital Ships, then how about a rough cost of
> 3,750,000,000 MCr., and with anywhere from 4-25 Million fighters at say
> 100 MCr each for a total cost of 420,000,000-2,500,000,000MCr for the
> fighters.  Auxiliaries are just about impossible to add up due to the fact
> that most are not even designed anywhere, but they would not be cheap. 
> All in all, the Imperial Navy is so huge, it is no wonder that the
> Rebellion went on for so long.

And also says a lot about what level of taxation we're talking about 
here.  


>  This would add up to about 10-150 Million crew for the BBs, 25-36 Million
> crew for the Cruisers under (CT), and 70-1,050 Million for BBs, and
> 37.5-54 Million Cruiser Crew (MT)  The Capital Ships then would have a
> crew need of 35-190 Million crew plus fighters at 2 each under CT, and
> 120-1,100 Million crew in MT if the Imperium pays each crewmember just

No wonder so many characters turn out to be from a military background.  
The Imperial military must be the #1 employer. :)

> 2,000 Cr per month (low) then the Imperium would need anywhere from
> 80,000-2,200,000Mcr just for crew salaries (actually you can about double
> this to include all the other personnel.)
>
> In conclusion the Imperium would spent roughly 3,750,000,000MCr on Capital
> Ships (say 1/2 that for all auxiliaries) for a total cost of
> 5,625,000,000MCr in ships, and 160,000-4,400,000MCr per Month on Salaries.

[shudder]

>  This means that the Imperial Navy Spends at most 8% of its Hardware Value
> on salaries each month.  I do not know if this is a feasible amount, and
> this just sort of took off on its own.  Questions, Comments, I hope that
> someone finds this interesting.

Definitely...very interesting.  Wow!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 23:20:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Hopes for T4

>Wow.  That is impresive.  That's a West End Games product, is it not?  
>Anyway, I hope IG is capable of that level of quality.

Yep, West End Games.  In fact, all of their Star Wars products have a high
degree of quality in them.  The layout is excellent and the interior art is
great.  They're all in hardcover (which I like) and have a cool picture
taken from the movies\painted on the front.  Excellent books.

>Perhaps the basic book could have a very simple (a la CT) world 
>generation system (ie, without spectral classes, system generation, 
>etc.), while the rest of that could be covered in a supplement....in 
>great detail.  I love it when I get an RPG and actually learn something 
>about the real world that I didn't know before.  When the author(s) go to 
>the effort of researching the real world it's great.

World Builder's Second Edition perhaps?

>Good point, it's better to not bend the book and crack the spine!  Then 
>again, it's also better to not rip pages out.  Perhaps they could have a 
>forms pack that would either be available separately or would be 
>enclosed with the boxed Deluxe Traveller set.  That way you don't have 
>to ruin your book in any way. :)

The only problem with giving them seperately is that's yet another product
you need to buy.  I wouldn;t mind, but I'm sure some people would.  What IG
could do is have a form in the main book on the back inside cover.  That's
what I did with my SWRPG book.  I photocopied the sheet once, and then taped
it onto the backcover so that it's easy photocopy.

Another idea would be for IG to make up HTML or Abode PDF character sheets,
and other forms available freely on their Web page.  IG, are you listening
to this?? :)

>How many days 'till T4 comes out? :)

Too many :)  It's gonna be a long summer :)

Peter Miller


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 27 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 171

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: TNE 
         2. QSDS Ships Reworked Again (Way too long)
         3. Re: VIRUS
         4. Re: Stere
         5. SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!
         6. Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!
         7. Re: [T96#154] Virus
         8. Re: [T96#154] Virus
         9. Re: Mileu 1200...Virus plotting ideas...
        10. Re: Sylean Medium Warship -- QSD Design
        11. Re: Proposed Rules for Age Effects

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:38:35 -0500
Subject: Re: TNE 

>From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>Subject: Re: TNE 
>
>Joe Walsh wrote:
>
>> 4)  Characters: 
>>         d)  The characteristics are screwy.  Agility instead of
>>dexterity...fine.  But adding charisma?  And the whole idea of putting
>>Social Standing off to the side is rather silly.  Were they afraid of
>>making it seven basic characteristics(or eight, with psionics)? I admit
>>I don't understand the thinking behind this. Maybe it will come clear as
>>I read further.
>
>I'm guessing they threw Charisma in there as a way of moderating social 
>skills.  A number of the player's I have known are completely incapable 
>of interacting with others on a one to one level.  Perhaps that's why 
>they threw it in.  Lets face it though everyone dumps their lowest skill 
>level into Charisma.
>Social Standing in TNE is really important only in generating money, it 
>doesn't convey any social advantages in either the RC or the Regency, 
>despite the fact that nobility is still around in the Reg, they've had 
>their powers chopped so bad they may as well not be noble's.
> 
 Actually, I liked th idea of Charsma.  It offered the supporting attribute
for those skills that didn't seem to belong to any othe attribute.  Like
Carousing, Leadership, Persuasion, and Service among others.  You could
argue that these skills could fall under Intelligence or Education, but I
don't buy it.  I worked as a Manager at a Burger King for nearly two and a
half years and there were some intelligent and well educated kids in there,
but they just didn't have the personality (charisma) to be good in the
service industry.  Similarly, one of the other managers was an intelligent
and educated individual, but he didn't have the personality (charisma) to
lead the crew effectively.  I think charisma has an appropriate place in the
skill system TNE used.  If MMT bases skills on attributes in a similar (even
remotely) manner, I hope they use Charisma, because I don't see Social
Standing as having an effect on your Service skill or your Carousing ability!

Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: scharlto@RTD.COM (Steve Charlton)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 21:08:56 -0700 (MST)
Subject: QSDS Ships Reworked Again (Way too long)

OK, since CERTAIN PEOPLE keep changing things ;-), here is the (hopefully 
final for real) revision of all of the QSDS ships I have done thus far.  
This was greatly aided by the Big Book o' Hulls, which showed me the error 
of my ways on a few designs.  Enjoy; I'll have more later this week, but not 
as lengthy a list, I promise.

BTW - I tried to send these out several days ago, but found out today that 
everything I've mailed from my work address this week has been lost in the 
bit bucket somewhere.  Sigh....


Scout Ship
Tons:  100  Volume: 1400         Cost: 24.001
Crew:  1    Passengers (H/M): 3  Passengers (L): 0
Cargo: 15   Controls: Bridge/Fib Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating                   02 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating           02 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery                       03 Power Plant Rating (4x75 MW)
00 Battery                       20.8 Fuel Rating
00 Battery                       00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery                       00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery                       00 Damper Rating
00 Battery                       A2 P3 J0 Sensors TL12 Improved
00 Battery                       10 Armor
00 Battery                       06 Structure
Notes:  Based on a 100-ton Streamlined Wedge hull, the Scout Ship carries 
TL12 Improved Communications, and an Air Raft.  It has a 10-ton capacity 
fuel purifier.  The normal crew is 1 (pilot/engineer), but the ship has 4 
Large Staterooms, allowing 3 passengers, or 7 at double-capacity.


Far Trader
Tons:  200  Volume: 2800         Cost: 32.897
Crew:  4    Passengers (H/M): 6  Passengers (L): 10
Cargo: 64   Controls: Bridge     Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating          02 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating  01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery              02 Power Plant Rating (4x 75 MW)
00 Battery              40.8 Fuel Rating
00 Battery              00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery              00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery              00 Damper Rating
00 Battery              A1 P3 J0 Sensors TL12 Basic
00 Battery              00 Armor
00 Battery              06 Structure

Crew Detail: 1 Engineer, 1 Pilot/Astrogator, 1 Steward, 1 Medical
Notes:  Based on a 200-ton Box Streamlined hull, the Far Trader carries TL12 
Basic Commo and a 10-ton capacity fuel purifier.  The crew has Small 
Staterooms, and there are 6 Large Staterooms and 10 Low Berths on board.


Free Trader
Tons:  200  Volume: 2800         Cost: 32.822
Crew:  4    Passengers (H/M): 6  Passengers (L): 20
Cargo: 76   Controls: Bridge     Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating          01 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating  01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery              02 Power Plant Rating (2x 75 MW)
00 Battery              20.8 Fuel Rating
00 Battery              00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery              00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery              00 Damper Rating
00 Battery              A1 P3 J0 Sensors TL12 Basic
00 Battery              00 Armor
00 Battery              06 Structure

Crew Detail: 1 Engineer, 1 Pilot/Astrogator, 1 Steward, 1 Medical
Notes:  Based on a 200-ton Box Streamlined hull, the Free Trader carries 
TL12 Basic Commo and a 10-ton capacity fuel purifier.  The crew has Small 
Staterooms, and there are 6 Large Staterooms and 20 Low Berths on board.


Subsidized Merchant
Tons:  400   Volume: 5600          Cost: 53.478
Crew:  5     Passengers (H/M): 10  Passengers (L): 10
Cargo: 207   Controls: Bridge      Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating          01 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating  01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery              02 Power Plant Rating (3x 100MW)
00 Battery              51.5 Fuel Rating
00 Battery              00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery              00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery              00 Damper Rating
00 Battery              A1 P3 J0 Sensors TL12 Basic
00 Battery              00 Armor
00 Battery              08 Structure

Crew Detail: 1 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Astrogator, 1 Steward, 1 Medical
Notes:  Based on a 400-ton Streamlined Slab hull, the Subsidized Merchant 
carries TL12 Basic Commo and a 10-ton capacity fuel purifier.  The crew has 
Small Staterooms, and there are 10 Large Staterooms and 10 Low Berths on 
board.  There is a 20-ton launnch carried in a strealined external grapple.


Subsidized Liner
Tons:  600   Volume: 8400          Cost: 68.706
Crew:  9     Passengers (H/M): 30  Passengers (L): 20
Cargo: 76    Controls: Bridge      Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating          03 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating  01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery              01 Power Plant Rating (310 MW)
00 Battery              211.7 Fuel Rating
00 Battery              00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery              00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery              00 Damper Rating
00 Battery              A1 P3 J0 Sensors TL12 Basic
00 Battery              10 Armor
00 Battery              15 Structure

Crew Detail: 2 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Astrogator, 1 Captain, 3 Steward, 1 Medical
Notes:  Based on a 600-ton Unstreamlined Close Structure hull, the 
Subsidized Liner carries TL12 Basic Commo and a 10-ton capacity fuel 
purifier.  The crew has Small Staterooms, and there are 30 Large Staterooms 
and 20 Low Berths on board.  There is a 20-ton Launch carried in a Minimal 
Hangar, which is used as a meeting area or exercise area when the Launch is 
absent.

Mercenary Cruiser
Tons:  800  Volume: 11200         Cost: 296.602
Crew:  30   Troops: 40            Passengers (L): 4
Cargo: 32   Controls: Bridge/Fib  Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating                   03 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating           02 G Rating / Thruster
02 Battery Mil Lsr 3-3-2-0       03 Power Plant Rating (1100 MW)
02 Battery Missile Barb 10 (8)   305.9 Fuel Rating
00 Battery                       00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery                       02 Sand Caster Rating (60)
00 Battery                       01 Damper Rating
00 Battery                       A10 P4 J10 Sensors TL12 Small Military
00 Battery                       60 Armor
00 Battery                       14 Structure

Crew Detail: 2 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 1 Astrogator, 1 Pilot, 4 Gunnery, 3 
Screens, 4 Small Craft Crew, 10 Command, 1 Medic, 2 Steward, 40 troops.
Notes:  Based on an 800-ton Unstreamlined Sphere, the Mercenary Cruiser has 
TL12 AdvancedCommo, and a TL12 10-ton capcaity fuel purifier.  The ship 
carries two 50-ton Modular Cutters in grapples on the landing legs, as well 
as 2 ATVs and 2 Air Rafts.  There are 2 Low Berths for medical emergencies.  
This version carries 40 troops, enough to carry a standard Marine platoon of 
3 12-man squads and a 4-man command and support team.  The ship has 2 TL12 
MFDs capable of controlling 4 missiles each.  The Marines are quartered in 
bunks, the Command staff in Large staterooms and the rest in small staterooms.


Patrol Cruiser
Tons:  400  Volume: 5600         Cost: 237.219
Crew:  17   Troops: 8            Passengers (L): 0
Cargo: 13   Controls: Bridge/Fib Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating                   03 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating           04 G Rating / Thruster
02 Battery Mil Lsr 3-2-0-0       04 Power Plant Rating (850 MW)
02 Battery Missile Barb 10 (8)   124.5 Fuel Rating
00 Battery                       00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery                       00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery                       00 Damper Rating
00 Battery                       A10 P4 J10 Sensors TL12 Small Military
00 Battery                       10 Armor
00 Battery                       16 Structure

Crew Detail: 2 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 1 Astrogator, 1 Pilot, 4 Gunnery, 3 
Command, 1 Medic, 1 Steward, 8 troops.
Notes:  Based on a 400-ton Airframe Needle hull, he Patrol Cruiser has TL12 
AdvancedCommo, and a TL12 10-ton capcaity fuel purifier.  The ship carries a 
30-ton Ship's Boat in an AirFrame Grapple, as well as an ATV.  There are 2 
TL12 MFDs each capable of controlling 4 missiles. The Marines are quartered 
in bunks, the Command staff in Large staterooms and the rest in small 
staterooms.


Lab Ship
Tons:  400  Volume: 5600          Cost: 146.484
Crew:  15   Passengers (H/M): 20  Passengers (L): 10
Cargo: 15   Controls: Bridge/fib  Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating          02 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating  01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery              02 Power Plant Rating (7x 50 MW)
00 Battery              82.1 Fuel Rating
00 Battery              00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery              00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery              00 Damper Rating
00 Battery              A10 P4 J10 Sensors TL12 Small Military
00 Battery              10 Armor
00 Battery              12 Structure

Crew Detail: 2 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 1 Pilot, 1 Astrogator, 1 Pinnace 
Pilot, 2 Command, 1 Medic, 4 Stewards. 
Notes:  Based on a 400-ton Unstreamlined Open Structure, the Lab Ship has 
TL12 Advanced Commo, and a TL12 10-ton capacity fuel purifier.  It uses a 
TL12 Advanced Commo, and carries 10 laboratories.  There is a 40-ton pinnace 
carried on board in an Unstreamlined Grapple. There are 5 Specimen holding 
tanks that can also be used as two-person Low Berths.


Yacht
Tons:  200  Volume: 2800          Cost: 33.452
Crew:  4    Passengers (H/M): 10  Passengers (L): 0
Cargo: 20   Controls: Bridge      Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating          01 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating  01 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery              02 Power Plant Rating (3x 50 MW)
00 Battery              20.9 Fuel Rating
00 Battery              00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery              00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery              00 Damper Rating
00 Battery              A2 P3 J0 Sensors TL10 Improved
00 Battery              20 Armor
00 Battery              11 Structure

Crew Detail: 1 Engineer, 1 Pilot/Astrogator, 1 Medic, 1 Steward
Notes:  Based on a 200-ton Streamlined Cylinder, the Yacht has TL12 Improved 
Commo, and no fuel purifier.  It carries a 30-ton Ship's Boat in a Minimal 
Hangar, an ATV and an Air Raft  The stateroom for the Ownder Aboard consists 
of a two-large stateroom Suite with a small stateroom office.  The crew has 
small staterooms, and there are 9 Large staterooms for passengewrs (plus the 
two for the explanded Owner's suite).


Safari Ship
Tons:  200  Volume: 2800         Cost: 35.958
Crew:  5    Passengers (H/M): 6  Passengers (L): 0
Cargo: 6    Controls: Bridge     Tech Level: 12

08 Size Rating              02 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating      01 G Rating / Thruster
01 Battery Civ Lsr 2-0-0-0  02 Power Plant Rating (150MW)
00 Battery                  40.8 Fuel Rating
00 Battery                  00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery                  00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery                  00 Damper Rating
00 Battery                  A2 P3 J0 Sensors TL12 Improved
00 Battery                  10 Armor
00 Battery                  10 Structure

Crew Detail: 1 Engineer, 1 Pilot, 1 Navigator, 1 Medic, 1 Steward
Notes:  Based on a 200-ton Streamlined Disk hull, the Safari Ship has TL11 
ImprovedCommo, and a TL11 10-ton capacity fuel purifier.  It carries a 
20-ton Launch in a Streamlined Grapple, as well as an Air Raft  The hull is 
an Streamlined Disk Structure (6S).  There is a 6-ton Trophy Room, as well 
as 2 7-ton capture cages that can be used as triple-capacity Emergency Low 
Berths in an emergency.  The Owner-Aboard, generally a prize-winning hunter, 
has a small stateroom to use as a personal office/trophy room, in addition 
to the large stateroom quarters he is assigned.  There are 5 additional 
Large staterooms (beyond the two for the Owner Aboard) and the crew is 
quartered in small staterooms.


Exploration Cruiser
Tons:  5000  Volume: 70000         Cost: 1232.447
Crew:  86    Passengers (H/M): 20  Troops: 40
Cargo: 8     Controls: Bridge/Fib  Tech Level: 12

09 Size Rating                   03 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating           03 G Rating / Thruster
03 Battery Mil Lsr 9-7-5-3       03 Power Plant Rating (7300 MW)
05 Battery Missiles 25 (20)      1529.1 Fuel Rating
00 Battery                       08 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery                       10 Sand Caster Rating (300)
00 Battery                       05 Damper Rating
00 Battery                       A16 P5 J16 Sensors TL12 Md Military
00 Battery                       20 Armor
00 Battery                       28 Structure
Notes:  Based on a 5000-ton Unstreamlined Wedge hull, the Exploration 
Cruiser carries TL12 Advanced Communications, and a 20-ton capacity fuel 
purifier.  The ship has an Engineering Shop and a Sickbay, minimal hangars 
for 6 100-ton Scouts and 2 30-ton Cutters.  The ship has 110 small 
staterooms (109 occupied by crew or marines, single occupancy), plus 40 
large staterooms for the command crew, diplomatic staff and passengers (also 
single occupancy).  There are 10 8-ton meeting rooms, each with a 
Workstation and additional computer and communications gear. There are 10 
Low Berths for medical emergencies.  The ship has 13 Engineers, 2 
Electronics, a Pilot, a Navigator, 8 Gunners, 19 Screen Operators, 16 Small 
Craft crew, 17 Command personnel, 7 Stewards and 2 Medics.  There is a 
platoon of marines on board, consisting of 3 12-man squads and a 4-man 
command team (including the marine CO, a lieutenant).

 

Destroyer
Tons:  5000  Volume: 70000         Cost: 2111.948
Crew:  170   Passengers (H/M): 0   Troops: 40
Cargo: 39    Controls: Bridge/Fib  Tech Level: 12

09 Size Rating                   03 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating           03 G Rating / Thruster
03 Battery Mil Lsr 9-7-5-3       04 Power Plant Rating (9600 MW)
20 Battery Missiles 100 (80)     1551.6 Fuel Rating
01 Battery TL12 PA 9-7-6-5       08 Meson Screen Rating
03 Battery TL12 Meson 3-2-0-0    10 Sand Caster Rating (300)
00 Battery                       05 Damper Rating
00 Battery                       A16 P5 J16 Sensors TL12 Md Military
00 Battery                       20 Armor
00 Battery                       28 Structure
Notes:  Based on a 5000-ton Unstreamlined Wedge hull, the Destroyer carries 
TL12 Advanced Communications, and a 20-ton capacity fuel purifier.  The ship 
has an Engineering Shop, a Vehicle Shop and a Sickbay, minimal hangars for 
24 10-ton fighters and 3 30-ton Cutters.  The ship has 100 small staterooms 
(86 occupied by crew or marines, double occupancy), plus 30 large staterooms 
for the command crew (single occupancy).  There are 10 Low Berths for 
medical emergencies.  The ship has 14 Engineers, 2 Electronics, a Pilot, a 
Navigator, 40 Gunners, 19 Screen Operators, 54 Small Craft crew, 29 Command 
personnel, 8 Stewards and 2 Medics.  There is a platoon of marines on board, 
consisting of 3 12-man squads and a 4-man command team (including the marine 
CO, a lieutenant).


Assault Corvette
Tons:  5000  Volume: 70000         Cost: 1474.557
Crew:  141   Passengers (H/M): 0   Troops: 320
Cargo: 350   Controls: Bridge/Fib  Tech Level: 12

09 Size Rating                   03 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating           03 G Rating / Thruster
03 Battery Mil Lsr 9-7-5-3       03 Power Plant Rating (7300 MW)
10 Battery Missiles 50 (40)      1539.1 Fuel Rating
02 Battery TL12 Meson 3-2-0-0    08 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery                       10 Sand Caster Rating (300)
00 Battery                       05 Damper Rating
00 Battery                       A16 P5 J16 Sensors TL12 Md Military
00 Battery                       20 Armor
00 Battery                       28 Structure
Notes:  Based on a 5000-ton Unstreamlined Wedge hull, the Assault Corvette 
carries TL12 Advanced Communications, and a 20-ton capacity fuel purifier.  
The ship has an Engineering Shop, a Vehicle Shop, a Sickbay and minimal 
hangars for 6 40-ton Pinnaces.  The ship has 190 bunks (for the marines), 55 
small staterooms (48 occupied by crew, double occupancy), plus 45 large 
staterooms for the command crew and Marine officers (44 occupied, single 
occupancy).  There are 150 Low Berths; 30 are reserved for medical 
emergencies, and 120 are used for the 3 reserve marine platoons are carried 
onbaord (see below). The ship has 13 Engineers, 2 Electronics, a Pilot, a 
Navigator, 23 Gunners, 19 Screen Operators, 12 Small Craft crew, 44 Command 
personnel, 13 Stewards and 3 Medics.  

The onboard Marine contingent consists of a 200-man marine company, plus an 
extra 3 platoons (nearly a full company) kept in low berths as a reserve.  
The company is organized as follows
3x Marine Platoons (3 12-man squads, 1 4-man Command Team, 
   3 10-ton APCs and 1 4-ton Armored Air Raft, for 34 tons 
   of vehicles each)
1x Support Platoon (2 MRLS squads, each with 3 4-ton MRL 
   sleds, 1 Ammo Squad with 3 10-ton APCs, and 1 command 
   team with a 4-ton Armored Air Raft, for 58 tons of 
   vehicles)
1x HQ Platoon (1 C3I squad with 1 10-ton APCs, 1 Air Defense 
   Squad with 4 4-ton ADA sleds, 1 Logistics Squad with 3 
   10-ton APCs and 1 Command Team with 1 4-ton Armored Air 
   Raft, for 60 tons of vehicles)
There are also 3 additional Marine Platoons in Low Berths, with their 
vehicles also stored in the cargo hold.  The total equipment tonnage for the 
reinforced company is 322 tons, leaving an additional 28 tons of extra ammo 
and other stores in cargo.


Destroyer Escort
Tons:  1000  Volume: 14000         Cost: 507.673
Crew:  43    Passengers (H/M): 0   Troops: 12
Cargo: 24    Controls: Bridge/Fib  Tech Level: 12

09 Size Rating                   03 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating           06 G Rating / Thruster
02 Battery Mil Lsr 6-5-3-2       06 Power Plant Rating (2750 MW)
05 Battery Missiles 25 (20)      314.7 Fuel Rating
00 Battery                       00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery                       10 Sand Caster Rating (300)
00 Battery                       05 Damper Rating
00 Battery                       A10 P4 J10 Sensors TL12 Small Military
00 Battery                       20 Armor
00 Battery                       23 Structure
Notes:  Based on a 1000-ton Airframe Needle hull, the Destroyer Escort 
carries TL12 Advanced Communications, and a 20-ton capacity fuel purifier.  
The ship has an Engineering Shop.  The ship has 35 small staterooms (35 
occupied by crew, single occupancy), plus 8 large staterooms for the command 
crew (also single occupancy) and 12 bunks for the Marine squad.  The ship 
has 6 Engineers, 2 Electronics, a Pilot, a Navigator, 7 Gunners, 15 Screen 
Operators, 8 Command personnel, 2 Stewards and 1 Medic.  There is a 12-man 
squad of marines on board.

Steven T. Charlton
I don't recall installing this 
"General Protection Fault" Screen Saver
scharlto@avalon.com (work)  scharlto@rtd.com (home)


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 21:27:37 -0700
Subject: Re: VIRUS

Paul Walker wrote:
> 
>I'm curious as to where the idea the TNE's Virus is a program came from? 
>I think I remember reading somewhere that it was not the program, but 
>the chip itself.  I do see the problem that sensors and communicators 
>would be difficult to infect through, but I don't ever remember reading 
>any TNE material that refers to the Virus as a program, as a matter of 
>fact I think that somewhere it says that Virus is different than the 
>virus' we see today because our virus are programs where Virus is the 
>chip itself.

The idea came from an old CT module called Signal-GK.  Some of you have 
it so you'll know more about it than I.  There's a Solomani ship that 
crashes on Cymbline.  When the rescue team shows up they find that the 
computer chips have been hijacked by these local silicon based lifeforms 
and had their chip structure altered (I hope that's basically right).

In TNE the Virus is based off these chip, only 1000's of times more 
advanced, so technically the term "Virus" is something of a misnomer it 
should be known as, "That wicked silicon based life form that 
accomplished in a year what the forces of the Imperium had been working 
on for twelve."  8)  Or something like that.

Active sensors would be extremely difficult to infect, passive sensors, 
short of optical telescopes would be extremely easy as they're just a big 
set of ears picking up every peice of electromagnetic radiation flying 
about the local area.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 21:29:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Stere

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I'd never heard of Stere before, looked it up, Stere = 1 cubic meter,
> sure enough.

I've heard a Stere before.  MOOOOOOOOO!!!!  8)

Sorry Couldn't resist.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:32:13 -0600
Subject: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!

        Folks, *AFTER* I turned everything in I've been getting reports of
typos or mistakes. PLEASE check things out thoroughly ASAP -- multiple
checks are better than just me! It's at the typesetters now, so there's only
a day or so before it's beyond fixing! The rules are at 

        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/FFSLight/Final.doc

        in Word 6 format. The worksheets used to generate them are available
off the FF&S Light main page.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:36:21 -0600
Subject: Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!

At 10:32 pm 6/26/96 -0600, I wrote:
>        Folks, *AFTER* I turned everything in I've been getting reports of
>typos or mistakes. PLEASE check things out thoroughly ASAP -- multiple
>checks are better than just me! It's at the typesetters now, so there's only
>a day or so before it's beyond fixing! The rules are at 
>
>        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/FFSLight/Final.doc

        and screwed up again... The correct URL is

        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/Final.doc
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 21:42:34 -0700
Subject: Re: [T96#154] Virus

David J. Golden wrote:

> > <CHOKE> <SPRAY> <SPUTTER> Mmmf!  You bastard!  Now I have to clean
> > partly used food out of this keyboard _again_!
> 
> Don't you have a "no food or drink within three feet" sign posted by
> your computer ...?

Off Topic But Funny Aside.

Was listening to the radio the other day.  Thursday mornings Larry and 
Willy to the "Internet Geek of the Week."  It's got a pretty solid 
following.  Anyways, they had a computer repair tech phone in with a 
story.

He was on the phone to a customer discussing some software problems and 
the fellow said:

CUST:  By the way I'll have to bring my computer in the cup holder's 
broken.

TEC:  Pardon?

CUST:  My cup holder, it's broken.

TEC:  Sorry your cup holder?  Did this come as part of a special 
promotion or something?

CUST:  No, came with the computer.

TEC:  A cup holder?

CUST:  Yep.

TEC:  Is there a brand name written on it?

CUST:  Nope, just says x4 on the front.

Needless to say the poor technition just about killed himself laughing.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 21:42:34 -0700
Subject: Re: [T96#154] Virus

David J. Golden wrote:

> > <CHOKE> <SPRAY> <SPUTTER> Mmmf!  You bastard!  Now I have to clean
> > partly used food out of this keyboard _again_!
> 
> Don't you have a "no food or drink within three feet" sign posted by
> your computer ...?

Off Topic But Funny Aside.

Was listening to the radio the other day.  Thursday mornings Larry and 
Willy to the "Internet Geek of the Week."  It's got a pretty solid 
following.  Anyways, they had a computer repair tech phone in with a 
story.

He was on the phone to a customer discussing some software problems and 
the fellow said:

CUST:  By the way I'll have to bring my computer in the cup holder's 
broken.

TEC:  Pardon?

CUST:  My cup holder, it's broken.

TEC:  Sorry your cup holder?  Did this come as part of a special 
promotion or something?

CUST:  No, came with the computer.

TEC:  A cup holder?

CUST:  Yep.

TEC:  Is there a brand name written on it?

CUST:  Nope, just says x4 on the front.

Needless to say the poor technition just about killed himself laughing.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 21:48:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Mileu 1200...Virus plotting ideas...

Tom Miller wrote:

>Could be, Could be.That's a very strong possibility.The Hiver's natural
>curiousity and technical knowhow would lead me to believe they took 
>apart an Imperial transponder and found one of those chips.  Perhaps 
>they just took them from the transponders and developed 'baby-Virus' on 
>their own form there.

This is an extreme possiblity.  Inspite of the fact that the transponder 
was supposed to kill chip if the box was ever tampered with perhaps the 
Hivers' figured it out.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:03:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Sylean Medium Warship -- QSD Design

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Bri wrote:

> vessels, and this is from one COUNTRY, the Imperium had 100,000+ worlds!
>  Lets face it, there would be at least a thousand Tigress dreadnoughts
> floating around.... Let alone the 1.5 odd MILLION cruiser class vessels.
 Hmmm, that's why my numbers were soo off the wall when I checked them
against that recent post. Thousand pardons, I have *no* idea where the
100,000 worlds came from. Bleh, I'm out of it today :P
 Altho, i've always thouhgt that 11,000 was a small figure for the
Imperium.


bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 23:16:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Proposed Rules for Age Effects

Joe Walsh wrote:

>Notes:

>Using this table, and assuming that PC's are going to have TL 13+ 
>facilities available most of the time, it breaks out like this:

>Terms           Average point loss per characteristic
>4-9             2.52 points
>10-15           3.54 points
>16-21           4.38 points
>22-28           5.02 points
                ===========
>Total Loss:     15.46 on Str, Dex/Agi, and Con

>This allows for the possiblity of a character living forever (always 
>getting lucky rolls), but it is a slim chance.  An average character 
>getting average rolls will live for about 86 years if s/he lives in a TL 
>13-15 society.  An average character living in a low tech socity will 
>have a much shorter life span, on average.

Current First World lifespan is now at 78 years.  86 Years seems like a
good TL 8/9 average.  As I see it, Lifespan should be *lots* longer by TL
15.  I would say a minimum of +2 and perhaps +3 to again rolls by TL 14
(High Stellar).  A good TL 14-16 lifespan would be perhaps 150 (at
minimum). 

I see aging starting at 34 under the current rules as being accurate for 
someone with no special medical care.  Once you subtract infant mortality 
and death in childbirth the CT/MT aging system looks pretty good for 
modeling well fed premodern lifespans.  I would not penalize the 
listed figures except for TL 0-2 civilizations.

Modern medicine can't do much about aging, but modern medicine is 
advancing *very* fast.  We have not yet mapped the human genome or begun 
to really understand how many drugs and body processes work.  We will 
likely have this knowledge within 20-30 years.  

By the time a society hits TL 10 (which includes limb regeneration and 
10:1 growth quickening) I would expect medicine to be able to slow aging 
and to reverse it's effect (to some extent).

Before we write rules, how about deciding average lifespans:

My vote:

TL 7-8:    70-80

TL 9-10:   90-100 

TL 11-13:  120-130

TL 14-16:  140-150

I'm not including the effect of anagathics here, and I'm being (in my
opinion) *very* conservative.  Realistically I'd make the averages more
like: 

TL 9-10:  100-110

TL 11-13: 140-150

TL 14-16: 170-180

But I imagine that these figures will be even more objectionable to many
of you.

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #171
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 27 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 172

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Stere
         2. Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!
         3. Re: Cargo Containers
         4. Booby traps
         5. Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!
         6. RE: Hardcover Traveller
         7. The Virus
         8. FWD: ONLY 5 MORE DAYS
         9. Robots in the Imperium (fwd)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 01:16:55 -0600
Subject: Re: Stere

On 06/26/96 at 09:29 PM,  Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> said:

>Eris Reddoch wrote:

>> I'd never heard of Stere before, looked it up, Stere = 1 cubic meter
>> sure enough.

>I've heard a Stere before.  MOOOOOOOOO!!!!  8)

Come on Stanley, where's the beef?

>Sorry Couldn't resist.

Me neither. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:51:01 GMT
Subject: Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:36:21 -0600, David J. Golden wrote:

>        Folks, *AFTER* I turned everything in I've been getting reports of
>typos or mistakes. PLEASE check things out thoroughly ASAP -- multiple
>checks are better than just me! It's at the typesetters now, so there's only
>a day or so before it's beyond fixing!

Argh!  You mean there's still time to fix things like:


...Changing "Sample Ship Description" to read "Sample Ship *Descriptor*" to be
consistant with the rest of SSDS (and QSDS).

...Giving a brief description of the different hull configuration
classifications (What's a "Closed Structure Hull"-- did it have an unfortunate
childhood?).

...Finding out if Thruster Plates are TL11 or TL12?

...Add periods to the ends of the first two sentences in the SELECTED OFFENSIVE
WEAPONS section.

...Include the "1 turret per 100t" rule of thumb (like the one used for bay
weaponry).

...Give prices for the basic missiles (yuck) from the T4 Ship Combat System.

...Add text to limit the number of Spinal Mounts that can be installed.

...Delete the reference to Tractor/Repulsors or add in a table for those
defensive weapons.

...Explain the Stealth table.

...Explain the differences between Basic and Standard Life Support.

...Get rid of the FF&S page reference under Small Craft & Launch Facilities, and
include a description of Launch Tubes.

...Maybe explain why you'd want to use TL9-11 Fusion plants when TL8 Fission
plants are cheaper & smaller (ie: what are the game effects to using fission).

...Include TL7 (8?) Fuel Cells so geeks like me can get our kicks designing
small, primitive TL8 & 9 vessels that threaten to fall apart or blow up at the
slightest bump (Yee-Hah!).

...Finally give better descriptions prior to each table and/or section if there
is still time (unless this text has been withheld and is planning to be
"borrowed" from FF&S).


Whew!  I accidentally failed to save this reply twenty minutes ago and I had to
type it all back in all over again. (I hope I'm not forgetting anything-- Ow!  I
think I'm developing CTS.)  I don't want to nit-pick but I can be sure that I am
speaking for everyone that we simply want SSDS to be smooth and clean.

I would suggest running your copy of the final draft through Word's spell
checker one more time since I came across a few mistakes when I did the same.
I've spend a few hours modifying your final draft, improving page formatting,
adding boarders & shading to the tables, and adding a few notes, so my copy
isn't "original" anymore.  If you want, I could send you a copy once SSDS is all
done & finished.

Toodles,


James W. Lindsay            Vancouver, British Columbia

Taz sez, "Ack! Icky plptht TAZ grunga yeek... PLPTHT!!!"

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:50:59 GMT
Subject: Re: Cargo Containers

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996 19:45:08 -0600, David J. Golden wrote:

>         NO! NO FUDGING ALLOWED! YOU MUST BE PRECISE IN EVERYTHING!
> 
>         (Ducks, runs for cover) Just kidding! (Doesn't quite make it) THWAP! Ow!

Yesss!  Got 'em!



------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 01:06:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Booby traps

>"accidentally" drop a grenade while trying to break contact with the
>enemy. Won't they get a surprise when they discover that it's rigged
>for 0 delay? (ie pull the pin, release the spoon, *boom*)

I read about this somewhere (but I've forgotten in which book; maybe
Chickenhawk):  During the Vietnam War, North Vietnames forces often acquired
U.S. weapons in large quantities (sometimes by slipping into U.S. bases and
stealing them).  U.S. troops at a certain base rigged all of the grenades in
a crate (or maybe several; I forget) for zero delay.  It was duly stolen.
After an attack on that base, the battlefield showed evidence that a lot of
grenades had gone off in hands of those throwing them.

I guess that you assume some risk if you take the other side's stuff.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 08:09:44 GMT
Subject: Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!

One more note:

There's an asterisk (*) after the USD 28 rating on the USD Conversion Chart.
Does this signify something or is this just a typo?  No need to answer.

Nighty, night.

------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 03:37:07 -0500
Subject: RE: Hardcover Traveller

unsubscribe druid@datatek.com

------------------------------

From: "Kenji Houston" <hokido@primenet.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 06:28:15 
Subject: The Virus

Here is my variant of the Virus.

As the major powers exsusted their crew reserves to fight in the
Rebellion. The navies had to rely on more autonimous ship systems. This
resulted in computers gaining a rudimentary self awareness. When the
war was fought for logical objectives and means, the semi-selfaware
ships were "happy" to blast other semi-selfaware ships.

The "Black War" changed that! The War had degenerated to outright
revenge and cruelty. Many computers suffered a nervous breakdown.
Some commited suicied. Some decided to wipeout the true virus: mankind.
Still others decided to control the technology that mankind could have.

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Please Encourage Its Author To Register Their Copy Of PMMail.  
For More Information About PMMail And SouthSide Software's Other 
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Please Encourage Its Author To Register Their Copy Of PMMail.  
For More Information About PMMail And SouthSide Software's Other 
Products, Contact http://www.southsoft.com.



------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:33:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FWD: ONLY 5 MORE DAYS

The following was posted from imperium@wisenet.net, but bounced due to
my oops.  So I am forwarding it on:

Rob
- ------

Imperium Games just wanted to remind you that if you plan on purchasing a
Hardback version of MMT with Marc Miller signature, you only have 5 days.
Our offer expires July 1st.  Dont worry, you can still get a hardback, you
just wont get a Marc Miller signature in it (unless you catch him at the
1996 GEN CON game fair.)  Order it from our web site.


www.ImperiumGames.com


Also, check out the web sight.  We are auctioning off ORIGINAL CHRIS FOSS
art work from the basic book!

Thanx,

Ken Whitman
President / Imperium Games


------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 21:26:53 +1000
Subject: Robots in the Imperium (fwd)

I do not know if this message is getting through. Please flame me if it 
has :-)

Subject: Robots in the Imperium (fwd)



Being a non-gearhead, but avid Imperial Historian, I was wondering what 
would the state of robotics in Year 0.

We did know they excisted, given that CT Book 8 listed the history of 
robotics  back to before Year 0. What I want to know is what is the social 
climate for robots.

In order to show how, I will make a few definitions:

1. The average TL11 person  has more computing power in a watch than NORAD 
and NASA together today. His "computers" would be so powerful that it would 
give Bill Gates nightmares, sharing data and instructions over a whole 
planetary net.

2. Power is everywhere. From Mr Fusion (tm) to radio signals, to power grids 
in every road and floor, to thermal power and solar power.

Now, to take advantage of this, I design a TL11 robot. I want it to handle 
complex instructions, and perform large and intrictate stuff, like build a 
home or make a tunnel. I could put a Mr Fusion plant and large complex 
copmuter in it. But why do i need to? All I need to do is put an equivelent 
of a Network Computer, able to take large amout of data 
(visiual,tactile,sensor,audio,direct data feed) and send it to a computer 
dedicated to process data for robots. (Companies may set themselves up 
toprovide this as a service, like ISP today, or you can have a central 
computer for your own copreations robots, or even your personal comp which 
has processing space spare). I do not need power, as I can draw more than 
enough from the local power grid, even if it was 2km away (for longer 
distances I may need a radio booster and fusion pack, but for the example 
this robot stays in areas serviced by the computer and power nets).

So , all i need is a small power converter, a relatively small computer and 
a chasie. I then add what i deed, servo's for movement and manipulation, 
sensors, output devices and whatever tools i need (plasma torches, earth 
moving equipment, drills, whatever).

So , In a normal TL11 enviromets, robots are a real cheap proposition, low 
cost to build, great value for money, extreamly veritile, easy to program 
(all you need is a HTML like hook > I need to do this...get the insrtuctions 
from here...do task).

It would also make a design sequence laughingly simple. basic computer, 
servoes, power box, and add what we need on it.

Comments , Flames?

Darryl  



------------------------------

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**********************************

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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 27 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 173

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Miniatures
         2. QSDS Errata
         3. Armor for spaceships
         4. Re: Virus... Just Say No! ;-)
         5. Re: Virus... Just Say No! ;-)
         6. Re: Proposed Rules for Age Effects
         7. Standard Ship Design system
         8. Traveller play by email
         9. Armor under QSDS
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #169
        11. Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!
        12. Re: Hopes for T4
        13. Re: TNE 
        14. Re: Traveller play by email
        15. Latest Traveller Chronicle
        16. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #169
        17. Re: Proposed Rules for Age Effects
        18. No Fun
        19. QSD Ship Design Questions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 27 Jun 1996 08:50:46 GMT
Subject: Miniatures

I was talking to Rafm yesterday, and they are still making miniatures for
Traveller.

Starships average $6 Cdn for a pack of two, figures average $5 Cdn for a pack
of three.

Rafm
20 Parkhill Road East
Cambridge, Ontario

Sorry, can't remember postal code or phone number now.  Will post price list
and full address later this week.

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 09:34:15 -0400
Subject: QSDS Errata

Thanks to the diligent efforts of William Humphrey, an error has been detected
in QSDS.  The fuel consumption listed on the power plant table is too low, by
(approximately) a factor of two.

The easiest solution (and one that involves no change to existing QSDS designs)
is to note that QSDS power plants contain fuel for only 6 months, not 1 year.

Since starships will ordinarily refuel after every jump, the duration is not
expected to be a major concern.  Designers should install twice the listed
amount of fuel if they require an unrefuelled duration of a year.

Guy Garnett, aka
wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   "Dreams do not vanish, so long as people do
                                    not abandon them."  --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:50:09 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Armor for spaceships

I seem to recall somewhere that all spaceships had to have a 
av of 1, to withstand micrometeors?
Why do the qdsd or whatever it is have a av of 0?

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:43:56 -0800
Subject: Re: Virus... Just Say No! ;-)

On 26 Jun 96 at 14:13, Derek Stanley spewed:

> William F. Hostman wrote:
> > 
> >The Ziru Sirkaa would still exist, again, like the regency, in a tightly
> >closed border situation; not that you can't enter,you just can't leave 
> >and come back.

Reformed Vilani Empire...

 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 08:23:40 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus... Just Say No! ;-)

>>>The Ziru Sirkaa would still exist,again,like the regency, in a tightly
>>>closed border situation; not that you can't enter,you just can't leave
>>>and come back.
> 
>Reformed Vilani Empire...

This would be the one that's destroyed in the Collapse.  I though it was 
in refference to a published pocket empire for TNE.  Now I re-read it I 
see that I was mistaken.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 10:51:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Proposed Rules for Age Effects

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, John R. Snead wrote:

> Current First World lifespan is now at 78 years.  86 Years seems like a
> good TL 8/9 average.  As I see it, Lifespan should be *lots* longer by TL
> 15.  I would say a minimum of +2 and perhaps +3 to again rolls by TL 14
> (High Stellar).  A good TL 14-16 lifespan would be perhaps 150 (at
> minimum). 
> 
> I see aging starting at 34 under the current rules as being accurate for 
> someone with no special medical care.  Once you subtract infant mortality 
> and death in childbirth the CT/MT aging system looks pretty good for 
> modeling well fed premodern lifespans.  I would not penalize the 
> listed figures except for TL 0-2 civilizations.
> 
> Modern medicine can't do much about aging, but modern medicine is 
> advancing *very* fast.  We have not yet mapped the human genome or begun 
> to really understand how many drugs and body processes work.  We will 
> likely have this knowledge within 20-30 years.  
> 
> By the time a society hits TL 10 (which includes limb regeneration and 
> 10:1 growth quickening) I would expect medicine to be able to slow aging 
> and to reverse it's effect (to some extent).
[SNIP]
> Comments?

I think it's reasonable to assume the table takes into account normal 
medical care for the given tech level.  I'd never classify anagathics as 
normal medical care, so that (and things like it) would not be included.  

Here's a look at another possible aging table, based on the same 6-term 
interval premise that my original post was based upon.  The following 
three tables should give folks enough data to see what we're working with 
here.  While they take into account TL effects, social standing effects 
would be separate die modifiers.  

Each roll is for a possible 1 point loss this time.  The amount of points 
lost per term doesn't vary under this system.   The likelihood of losing 
points is the only thing that changes.  Same effect, different mechanism.

Once again, just like last time, in the first two Intervals only STR, 
DEX/AGI, and CON would be rolled for.  In subsequent Intervals, INT would 
be included in that.  

This system seems to give TL 0-1 people a break, but it doesn't.  
Although people living at TL 0-1 conditions may live to be more than 80 
years old, they probably do not.  Why?  When they get down to 1-2 point 
characteristics, in that environment they will probably be killed by 
unnatural means (ie, animals, rival tribes, etc.).  


Anyway, here we go....
         
                              
Six-Term Interval:      1       2       3       4       5       6       7
Age At End of Interval: 58      82      106     130     154     178     202
                                ROLL REQUIRED TO AVOID POINT LOSS
TL                      
0-1                    10+     11+     12+     12+     12+     12+     12+
2-3                     9+     10+     11+     12+     12+     12+     12+
4-5                     8+      9+     10+     11+     12+     12+     12+
6-7                     7+      8+      9+     10+     11+     12+     12+
8-9                     6+      7+      8+      9+     10+     11+     12+
10-11                   5+      6+      7+      8+      9+     10+     11+
12-13                   4+      5+      6+      7+      8+      9+     10+
14-15                   3+      4+      5+      6+      7+      8+      9+
 
 
Six-Term Interval:      1       2       3       4       5       6       7
Age At End of Interval: 58      82      106     130     154     178     202
                                Average Point Loss over 6-Term Interval
TL                      
0-1                     5       5.5     5.83    5.83    5.83    5.83    5.83
2-3                     4.33    5       5.5     5.83    5.83    5.83    5.83
4-5                     3.5     4.33    5       5.5     5.83    5.83    5.83
6-7                     2.5     3.5     4.33    5       5.5     5.83    5.83
8-9                     1.67    2.5     3.5     4.33    5       5.5     5.83
10-11                   1       1.67    2.5     3.5     4.33    5       5.5
12-13                   .5      1       1.67    2.5     3.5     4.33    5
14-15                   .1667   .5      1       1.67    2.5     3.5     4.33
 
 
Six-Term Interval:      1       2       3       4       5       6       7
Age At End of Interval: 58      82      106     130     154     178     202
                                  Cumulative Average Point Losses
TL                      
0-1                     5       10.5    16.33   22.16   27.99   33.82   39.65 
2-3                     4.33    9.33    14.83   20.66   26.49   32.32   38.15
4-5                     3.5     7.83    12.83   18.33   24.16   29.99   35.82
6-7                     2.5     6       10.33   15.33   20.83   26.66   32.49
8-9                     1.67    4.17    7.67    12      17      22.5    28.83
10-11                   1       2.67    5.17    8.67    13      18      23.5
12-13                   .5      1.5     3.17    5.67    9.17    13.5    18.5
14-15                   .17     .67     1.67    3.34    5.84    9.34    13.67  
 


Please let me know what you think!


- -Joe                                       
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@odyssee.net>
Date: 27 Jun 96 11:54:31 -0500
Subject: Standard Ship Design system

While I'd like to think that I'm not _completely_ technically inept, I have
a pair of questions relating to the SSDS:

When figuring the amount of usable space aboard, it says to multiply the
Volume factor by the # of Gs in order to see the amount of space dedicated
to the internal structure of the ship.

Example:  200mt/2800m3 streamlined Box at 1G, TL12 (Factor .77) gives a
number of .77.  If this is then multiplied by the ships mass or volume, it
seems like an awful lot of space is lost for structure.  If it is instead
used to determine how much space is left, why do higher tech levels have
smaller numbers?

I'm sure I'm missing something essential, but the text wasn't overly clear.

Thanks in advance,
Ross Coburn
ross@odyssee.net

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 11:58:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Traveller play by email

  Does anyone know of any Traveller PBEM games? Someone just sent me
email asking about this.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 11:13:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Armor under QSDS

In response to the question about ships with Armor of 0 under QSDS and 
the effect of micro meteors (I deleted the message by accident):

To me, it makes sense that Armor 0 would include protection for such 
common space phenomina.  The minimum level of armor incorporated in every 
hull would have to do that.  I can't think of an application where you 
wouldn't want such protection.  It shouldn't cost extra.

Those more familiar with FF&S and ship design in general may have a 
different view, but that's how I see it...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 11:30:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #169

>> Also, 2000cr per passenger per jump was really 1000cr tax and
>> 1000cr for supplies.  Same for low traveler, half was tax the 
>> other half was for supplies and repairs.
>
>So, there was no profit to be made on selling passage, eh?  Hmmm.  Not
>much incentive to run a passenger-carrying ship.

I think you have misunderstood.  In CT the cost of running passengers was
2000cr for every mid  and high passenger.  I just assume that half of that
figure goes to pay for taxes rather than supplies.  The ship owner still
brings in the same net income.

For example, lets say a 100 ton ship has 32 tons that can be used for profit.  

	If used to carry non speculative cargo net income would be 32,000 credits.

	If used to carry low passengers net income would be 56,960 credits
(assuming a surviving low passenger wins the low lottery every jump).

	If used to carry mid passengers net income would be 48,000 credits.

	If used to carry high passengers net income would be 62,000 credits.
(Assuming there is already a stateroom for the steward, otherwise net income
would be 56,000).

	If this ship were to travel between two high population worlds of about
equal tech level it would always be assured of getting at lest eight high
passengers.  To carry anything but high passengers would mean loss of profit.

	If all 32 tons are used to carry cargo the owner would bring in 32,000
credits (assuming full bays) on each jump.  If the 32 tons were used for low
berths, 64 of them, net income would be 56,960 credits





------------------------------

From: "David E. Brooks Jr" <dbj@mpgn.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 12:56:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!

Something that stood out when I was browing the document:  Under the
Meson Gun Spinal Mounts table, the TL11 5,000Mj Meson Gun is listed as
having a price of 939.75 MCr.  This seems way out of sync with the
other 5,000Mj guns on the table (all of which are in the 300 to 400
MCr range).  Could this be a simple typo and the price actually be
393.75 MCr?

- -- Dave

- --
David E. Brooks Jr / dbj@MPGN.COM | GCS/O d? H+(-) s:+ g+ a w++(--) v
Tantalus Incorporated             | C++ UU++++$ UO P+>+++ L+ E N+ W+>+++
Key West, FL                      | M- V- po Y+ t+(++) !5 !j R+(++)>+++ G'
+1 305 293 8100 x15               | tv- b+>++ D B- e u+ h--- f+ r+++ n y?


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 12:20:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hopes for T4

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Tom Miller wrote:

> The only problem with giving them seperately is that's yet another product
> you need to buy.  I wouldn;t mind, but I'm sure some people would.  What IG

True.  I was envisioning a product like Deluxe Traveller - boxed, with 
the sheets included in that.  But IG hasn't told us it has plans for such 
a product, so you're right.  It would have to be separate.

> could do is have a form in the main book on the back inside cover.  That's
> what I did with my SWRPG book.  I photocopied the sheet once, and then taped
> it onto the backcover so that it's easy photocopy.

That would work, but only for one form, right?  

Sounds like we're back to bent spines again. <sigh>


> Another idea would be for IG to make up HTML or Abode PDF character sheets,
> and other forms available freely on their Web page.  IG, are you listening
> to this?? :)

That'd certainly help those of us who are on line . . . :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 12:23:08 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: TNE 

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

>  Actually, I liked th idea of Charsma.  It offered the supporting attribute
> for those skills that didn't seem to belong to any othe attribute.  Like
> Carousing, Leadership, Persuasion, and Service among others.  You could
> argue that these skills could fall under Intelligence or Education, but I
> don't buy it.  I worked as a Manager at a Burger King for nearly two and a
> half years and there were some intelligent and well educated kids in there,
> but they just didn't have the personality (charisma) to be good in the
> service industry.  Similarly, one of the other managers was an intelligent
> and educated individual, but he didn't have the personality (charisma) to
> lead the crew effectively.  I think charisma has an appropriate place in the
> skill system TNE used.  If MMT bases skills on attributes in a similar (even
> remotely) manner, I hope they use Charisma, because I don't see Social
> Standing as having an effect on your Service skill or your Carousing ability!

Paul,

I don't use the task system, so I hadn't even thought about that aspect.  
You're right, there definitely is a place for a Charisma characteristic.  
None of the basic six characteristics can be credibly stretched to cover 
that area.

Hmmm.  If IG doesn't have a Charisma characteristic in T4, that might be 
a good candidate for a house rule.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 13:23:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller play by email

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Larry Hadley wrote:

> 
>   Does anyone know of any Traveller PBEM games? Someone just sent me
> email asking about this.


I am running a new one but it has too many people in it already!  There
are a few out there, I'm sure there are some with openings or new groups
just waiting to get started.

> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 13:30:01 -0400
Subject: Latest Traveller Chronicle

Greetings All:

Just got the latest Traveller Chronicle in the mail. If you are a fan of the
New Era, you should definately grab it (ducking the thrown produce from fans
of other eras).

The cover article and the bulk of the issue is for TNE Solomnai Rim. There's
an overview, collapsed stats and the like. Another article that I enjoyed a
lot was comparing actual stars with the stars in the Solomani Rim sourcebook.
Amusing little statements like "I had to juice up star x to make it fit the
stats in Harshman's original writing), etc. Plus other articles to round out
the issue and even some stuff by Mr. BITS-himself, A. Lilly.

The next issue (and it sounds like a few beyond that) will continue the
emphasis on the Rim.

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 12:34:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #169

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Daniel wrote:

> >> Also, 2000cr per passenger per jump was really 1000cr tax and
> >> 1000cr for supplies.  Same for low traveler, half was tax the 
> >> other half was for supplies and repairs.
> >
> >So, there was no profit to be made on selling passage, eh?  Hmmm.  Not
> >much incentive to run a passenger-carrying ship.
> 
> 
> I think you have misunderstood.  In CT the cost of running passengers was
> 2000cr for every mid  and high passenger.  I just assume that half of that
> figure goes to pay for taxes rather than supplies.  The ship owner still
> brings in the same net income.

Hmmm.  It seems to me he would still bring in the same gross income, but 
would get no profit from that.  If you charge 2000 credits for passage, 
pay 1000 credits to the government (taxes), and pay another 1000 credits for 
repairs and supplies, that leaves nothing for profit.  

At least, that's how it seems to me.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Bill Garmer <bgarmer@tst.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 10:41:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Proposed Rules for Age Effects

At 11:51 AM 6/27/96 -0400, you wrote:
>On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, John R. Snead wrote:
>
>> Current First World lifespan is now at 78 years.  86 Years seems like a
>> good TL 8/9 average.  As I see it, Lifespan should be *lots* longer by TL
>> 15.  I would say a minimum of +2 and perhaps +3 to again rolls by TL 14
>> (High Stellar).  A good TL 14-16 lifespan would be perhaps 150 (at
>> minimum). 
>> 
>> I see aging starting at 34 under the current rules as being accurate for 
>> someone with no special medical care.  Once you subtract infant mortality 
>> and death in childbirth the CT/MT aging system looks pretty good for 
>> modeling well fed premodern lifespans.  I would not penalize the 
>> listed figures except for TL 0-2 civilizations.
>> 
rest deleted for simplicity

I like this thread about alternate aging tables.  Many of my characters have
taken the plunge pass the forth term (I believe in skills over stats in many
situations) but the ideal that someone in a high tech society in an
occupation that demands fitness (military - police - etc) should not suffer
an aging loss at 34.  This brings up another concept - how about modifing
the aging roll due to occupation - especially true if a TL2 character joins
the Imperium Navy.

On the other hand - the GM should be careful since world TL refers to what a
world is able to produce.  Thus, if a character's home world is TL 2 - it
may mean that his parents are living on a colony or science station.  As
such - he would have access to some of finest medical care available.

Regards,
Bill

Bill Garmer
Torrey Science Corporation
bgarmer@tst.com
Voice: 619/552-1052
Fax:   619/552-1056


                     --------
                    |        |
                    | (o) (o)
                    C   ---  )
                     | | ,__ |
                     | \____/
                     /       \
                    /         \

          "I am Homer of Borg.  You will be assimilated.  Resistance is futile. 
           Preparation is irrelev...Mmmmmmm...Doughnut!"           


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 12:35:54 -0500
Subject: No Fun

This is no fun, I'm actually having to do work cause I'm running out of mail
to read!!!  :)

Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:15:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: QSD Ship Design Questions

Hi,

I've got a few questions regarding the QSDS system.

1)  When you choose a hull, you get the stats for tonnes displacement,
power, cost, volume, etc.  However, when you calculate volume for the USD,
do you use the 'volume' in the hull table, or do you multiply the td by 14?
If it's the latter, then what is the point of the volume in the hull table.

2)  What does 'len' mean in the BIGHULLS text?

3)  I missed the message announcng the change that QSD 1.2 has, what exactly
is the difference between 1.1 and 1.2?

4)  Say, for example, I have a 5000 td ship, with a power plant giving off
3000 MW.  To get the power rating, is this correct:

3000 x 2 = 6000 \ 5000 = 1.2 (The Power Rating is 1.2?)

Thanks,

Peter Miller


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 27 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 174

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Hopes for T4
         2. Ziru Sirkaa
         3. Re: No Fun
         4. Re: No Fun
         5. Help!
         6. Re: No Fun
         7. Re: No Fun
         8. Re: Hopes for T4
         9. Re: Wrong Rob
        10. Worldbuilding Resource
        11. TTC10
        12. Anagathics NOT
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #170
        14. Population of the Imperium, and the taxes they pay (LONG)
        15. QSDS/SSDS discrepancies and proofreading

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:23:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Hopes for T4

>True.  I was envisioning a product like Deluxe Traveller - boxed, with 
>the sheets included in that.  But IG hasn't told us it has plans for such 
>a product, so you're right.  It would have to be separate.

A boxed product would be excellent, cause then the forms would be easy to
make.  Actually, what they could do in a boxed set is include the main
Traveller book, some other stuff (any ideas?) and some A4 size card which
has the different forms on (double-sided), so if I wantt o photocopy them
it's not a loose piece of paper I can loose, but a solid strong piece of
card which is easy to photocopy and hard to damage.

>> could do is have a form in the main book on the back inside cover.  That's
>> what I did with my SWRPG book.  I photocopied the sheet once, and then taped
>> it onto the backcover so that it's easy photocopy.
>
>That would work, but only for one form, right?  
>
>Sounds like we're back to bent spines again. <sigh>

I guess.....hmmm, I'm running out of ideas :)
>
>> Another idea would be for IG to make up HTML or Abode PDF character sheets,
>> and other forms available freely on their Web page.  IG, are you listening
>> to this?? :)
>
>That'd certainly help those of us who are on line . . . :)

But not people who aren't online...still I like the idea of it.  

Peter Miller


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 10:57:58 -0800
Subject: Ziru Sirkaa

>William F. Hostman wrote:
>>
>>The Ziru Sirkaa would still exist, again, like the regency, in a tightly
>>closed border situation; not that you can't enter,you just can't leave
>>and come back.
>
>I must have missed this one.  Who are these guys?
>Derek Stanley

Ziru Sirka      Vilani Imperium (1st Imperium)
Ziru Sirkaa     Restored Vilani Imperium (rebebllion faction), almost all
                of vland sector... little bit over, actually.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:12:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: No Fun

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> This is no fun, I'm actually having to do work cause I'm running out of mail
> to read!!!  :)

We must have run out of Threads That Wouldn't Die. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 15:54:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: No Fun

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> > This is no fun, I'm actually having to do work cause I'm running out of mail
> > to read!!!  :)
> 
> We must have run out of Threads That Wouldn't Die. :)




reminds me of that kids song....

"this is the thread that never ends,
it just goes on and on my frinds,
some people started flaming it not knowing what it was
and they'll continue flaming it forever just because..

this is the thread that never ends..."


8->

> 
> 
> -Joe
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
> ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
> Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
> 
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 14:56:35 -0500
Subject: Help!

Why can I not unsubscribe? I've tried the following formats....
unsubscribe traveller
unsubscribe druid@datatek.com
unsubscribe traveller druid@datatek.com
traveller unsubscribe
ONE of these should work, Right?
(I'm getting tired of this 145 post / day ratio....)

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 13:22:27 -0700
Subject: Re: No Fun

Tom Ellis wrote:

> > We must have run out of Threads That Wouldn't Die. :)
> 
> reminds me of that kids song....
> 
> "this is the thread that never ends,
> it just goes on and on my frinds,
> some people started flaming it not knowing what it was
> and they'll continue flaming it forever just because..
> 
> this is the thread that never ends..."

Lampchops Playhouse...  Cute versions though.

Here's a topic for speculation.  What was Margret doing pushing back into 
the Glimmer Drift like that?

Was she:

1) Pulling out.
2) Searching for new markets.
3) Trying to establish a secondary base she could fall back to.
or
4) Just looking for a really good hotdog at a reasonable price.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 15:14:39 -0600
Subject: Re: No Fun

On 06/27/96 at 02:12 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
said:

>We must have run out of Threads That Wouldn't Die. :)

Nah, everybody's just reloading their guns. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 20:36:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Hopes for T4

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:23:44 -0400 (EDT), Tom Miller wrote:

> A boxed product would be excellent, cause then the forms would be easy to
> make.  Actually, what they could do in a boxed set is include the main
> Traveller book, some other stuff (any ideas?) and some A4 size card which
> has the different forms on (double-sided), so if I wantt o photocopy them
> it's not a loose piece of paper I can loose, but a solid strong piece of
> card which is easy to photocopy and hard to damage.

Perhaps something like the TNE boxed set, which included FF&S (a good supplement
regardless of how detailed you wanted to run your campaign).  Besides forms, the
T4 boxed set might possibly include the eventual soft-cover release of T4,
Milieu 0, and maybe even Starships or the Central Supply Catalog.  Much more
than that and it would be too expensive for most people.

> >> Another idea would be for IG to make up HTML or Abode PDF character sheets,
> >> and other forms available freely on their Web page.  IG, are you listening
> >> to this?? :)

It wouldn't even have to be IG... just someone with some time and IG's
permission.  But I *definitely* like the idea of having certain forms available
on line, since "permission to photocopy" such forms would mean that there would
be little money to be lost in such an endevor (except for what IG would want to
charge for the original forms).

------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 06:39:05 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: Wrong Rob

On 25 Jun 1996, Rob Prior wrote:
> Actually, it was me, Rob Prior, who created the trade rules.  Rob Miracle
> runs the list.

Oops, I should have read my mail closer. Many apologies, Rob! (BTW, the rules
are great!)

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity".


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 27 Jun 1996 16:34:17 GMT
Subject: Worldbuilding Resource

Here's a couple of non-Traveller resources for Traveller referees:

Worldbuilding: A writer's guide to contructing star systems and
life-supporting planets
Dr. Stephen L. Gillett
Writers Digest

Aliens and Alien Societies: A writer's guide to creating extraterrestrila
life-forms
Stanley Schmidt
Writers Digest

Both are aimed at the 'intelligent layman' who knows a bit of science, isn't
scared of number, and cares about scientific accuracy.  Formulae are
presented for a variety of things (for example, air pressure under different
gravities, with different gas mixes).  Examples are common, along with plot
ideas sparked by alien worlds/animals/socities.  Both are very well written.

I heartily recommend both these books.  I am currently rewriting my Traveller
world creation software to allow a 'real-world' option that takes this
information into account.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 27 Jun 1996 16:36:38 GMT
Subject: TTC10

Haven't received it, but I sent off a subscription form.  Is there an email
address I can query?

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 16:36:00 -0500
Subject: Anagathics NOT

  I've read in SF of three processes for achieving extended life
  artificially (i.e., not evolving into it, and not considering
  brain transplants into robots, or downloading oneself into the
  net).

  First, is the Anagathic.  This is the method used in Traveller,
  and in the _Cities_in_Flight_ novels by James Blish.  Using this
  method, there is a regimen of drugs that are taken that
  counteract the physical effects of aging.  I disfavor life
  extension through this method because (a) the drugs themselves
  must be incredibly complex, to ensure that any side effects of
  screwing around with certain physiological processes are
  counteracted - and this still means that the subject is taking a
  _hell_ of a lot of stuff; (b) the brain chemistry problem - the
  so-called blood/brain barrier _has_ to continue to exist -
  otherwise, you're gonna come across some sort of nasty bug that
  exploits the same mechanism that your anagathic does, and that's
  when you first find out what trouble is; (c) logically, it must
  be unavailable (legally) to the PCs, or else it must be so common
  that _everybody_ can get them.  This is because if the supply is
  limited, it will be scarfed up "at any price" by those who have
  the most money - like the Imperial Family, and the families that
  control the biggest MegaCorps.  They'll hoard the stuff against a
  possible future shortage, and the entire output will be spoken
  for before it's produced.  If this isn't the case, then it must
  be because the production level is so high, and there are so many
  producers, that it becomes simple to locate the stuff, and the
  likelihood of running out and being unable to get the next dose
  is slim to none - and slim may just have left town.  Anything
  in-between results in the hoarding scenario; the only thing
  varying availability will affect is _which_ rich nobles with lots
  of pull are going to be able to get it.  Your typical PC isn't
  going to have a chance, without having something _real_ nasty to
  use as blackmail - or something _real_ big to use as a bribe.

  The second method is the \deus ex machina\.  The "canonical"
  example to me is Niven's _A_World_Out_Of_Time_.  In this method,
  you have what is essentially a very selective matter transmitter
  that simply poofs away all of the accumulated crud collectively
  known as products of aging, allowing the body to go back to
  functioning at full efficiency for the next seventy years or so.
  Now, 'splain to me how a brainless machine can distinguish the
  "crud" from the same chemicals serving a useful purpose in a
  living body - that stuff's gotta come from somewhere...  This
  doesn't work for me.

  The third and final method is represented in a book called
  _Buying_Time_, author disremembered.  The basic theory here is
  that they clone almost everything - organs, skin, muscle, et
  cetera, and then rebuild you practically from the ground up.
  The process requires a noticeable chunk of time, and a large team
  of medical professionals specifically trained in the process.
  There's also a significant amount of near-continuous pain, and
  since you've got to be conscious for some parts of the process,
  there is mental trauma as well.  So, in order to ensure that you
  come out of the process as sane as you went in, there is a
  treatment that "wipes", or perhaps suppresses, your memories of
  the process.  In the story, it starts out being an exclusive
  process (monopolistic supply), and the cost is every bit of your
  wealth and assets - and you'd better have at least a million
  bucks just to walk in the door.  There are also covenants and
  investigations designed to ensure that you're not hiding any
  wealth, and you're not allowed to buy the job for someone else.
  What's more, there's a booby-trap designed into the system;
  you'll need a refresher in a relatively short time (10 years?) or
  you'll be turned off.  By the end of the story, the process has
  been duplicated except for the mindwipe, so it becomes a flat fee
  job - a million gets it with no booby-trap (you'll be good for
  50-100 years at a shot, not just 10), and who cares where the
  million comes from as long as the cops ain't gonna be knocking at
  the doc's door later. I like this one - it's not out of reach for
  the average astute PCs, but it'll be tough to scrape up the cash
  for the ticket - unless they do some rich bastard a favor, and he
  offers to pay for the job. Further, there's a cost to the PC that
  takes it, even beyond the cash - do you really want to be totally
  out of circulation for several months?  If the number of
  suppliers is limited enough, getting there might be an adventure
  or three, even if you've got the cash, and they might charge the
  high (surrender 'em and come out broke) price - is it worth it,
  and are your buddies gonna be there when you come out, and is
  there a covenant forcing you to sever the relationship to get the
  job done?  Then, how long's the waiting list, and if you've got
  something terminal (cancer?), are you gonna last long enough to
  go in (you'll come out cured - and that includes cured of genetic
  nasties like diabetes, tay-sachs, sickle-cell, and so on)?  A
  nice feature of this is that it becomes available at relatively
  low tech levels - say 9 or 10 (maybe even 8, but I think that's
  pushing it) - with the process perhaps taking six months to a
  year (no mindwipe, so gotta do it slowly to prevent
  psychotrauma), not including cloning lead time, shortening down
  to maybe a month at TL 15, with no lead time needed.

  I think I'm going to go with the surgical "anagathic" in my
  Traveller universe; the pharmaceuticals will exist, but they'll
  essentially be the dangerous Ana-B of T:TNE, with its nasty side
  effects (I seem to remember that Ana-A, the "good" one, also had
  some nasty side effects, as well).  A PC who plays his cards
  right can live from the rediscovery of the technique in the
  Sylean Federation right through to the Assassination.  Could make
  for an interesting campaign...  "Heh, you think this is a tough
  war; _I_ remember during the Pacification of Antares, we...
  (said by Command Sergeant Major "Wheezer" Geezer, during the
  Fifth Frontier War).

  For playing this, the character ages normally, but when he comes
  out of the process, go back to the stats that the player
  originally rolled up, and roll 1D3 against each - on a 1, lower
  the stat by 1, on a 2, no change, on a 3, raise the stat by 1.
  Don't do this with social standing, and don't pay any pensions
  from previous careers after release.  The character is now on the
  Age 18 line of the aging tables, and may resume adventuring
  immediately (if properly equipped, contacts, et cetera), or may
  embark on a new "prior career".  Prior possessions, cash, TAS
  membership, et cetera, depend on the payment plan in your
  universe.  One caveat on payment - it should be _very_ expensive,
  even if it's not the "all assets" plan, and no credit or payment
  plan should be extended. Payment, in full, must be made up front
  as a condition of admission.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  There are so many upgrades, I am bankrupt.



------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 22:04 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #170

In-Reply-To: <199606270326.XAA13962@NS.MPGN.COM>

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Subject: Proposed Rules for Age Effects
> 
>Here's a proposed aging rule.  It's something I came up with rather
>quickly, based on my own ideas and those of Andrew Boulton and John
>Snead, in addition to general discussions of aging and, of course, the
>original Traveller rules.
> 
>Please comment on this and add to it, so we can hammer out something that
>works well.

Yep, that's pretty much like what I threw together a couple of years ago.

                      --------=====OOO=====--------
Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."

------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 16:00:05 MST7
Subject: Population of the Imperium, and the taxes they pay (LONG)

Joe Walsh's comments about taxation, and David Broussard's analysis
of the size and cost of the Imperial Navy got me to pondering...(are
you ponering what I'm pondering, Pinky?? I don't know Brain...just
how DO you get an Aslan to play the Cowardly Lion???)

What is the population base we're talking about here?  Where did the
grand '11,000 Worlds of the Imperium' number come from?

So I applied a massive overkill of technology (Sybase Sys 10 on a HP
workstation, using expensive client-server applications...but hey,
at least this way I can say I WAS working...ummmm Yeah! "I'm testing
the integrity of our network"; that's it!) and put all of the fabled
'Genie sector data' into a database. Now we can play with the
nnumbers in some useful sort of way.

CAVEAT: As has been mentioned here, and elsewhere much of the Genie
data is probably non-canon, and moreover, seems to have been created
with 'a computer with it's needle stuck' (Dave Nillson, in the last
Challenge, regarding collapsing systems...this was a sidebar,
actually). Furthermore, some of the data is incomplete. For
instance, the much of the Vland sector is missing the population
multiplier; I substituted a default of 1, so some population
estimates could be as much as 90% off  in a worst case scenario.
Also, I don't know when the Allegiance code corresponds to
(Pre-Rebellion, Rebellion, other?) I made the assumption here that
it was just Pre-Rebellion. Finally, these data don't specify the
number of inhabited worlds in the system, so I'm assuming one
world/system, and all the population lives there. From a
fine-grained standpoint this is a horrible idea, but for what I'm
doing I think it's perfectly fine.

On to the data:

Sectors included: 32

Ley, Core, Deneb, Spica, Verge, Vland, Daibei, Delphi, Lishun,
Magyar, Antares, Fornast, Hlakhoi, Corridor, Diaspora, Iwahfuah,
Gushemege, Massillia, Ealiyasiyw, Dagudashaag, Dark Nebula, Reft
Sector, Staihaia Yo, Alpha Crucis, Hinterworlds, Solomani Rim,  Old
Expanses, Empty Quarter, Trojan Reaches, Riftspan Reaches, Spinward
Marches, and Glimmerdrift Reaches

Total number of Worlds: 13,410

Total number of Worlds, by Allegiance

	Allegiance	Number of Systems 
	 Im	7026	 
	 As	1896 	
	 Na	1293
 	 So	1058 	
	Dd	326
 	 Ma	261
 	 Li	258
 	 Cs	177
 	 Hv	177 
	 Va	113
 	 Jr	80

	 	These are the major ones, there are a number of other codes
present in the data that I don't recognize.  Hell, I don't recognize
all of these! (Someone help please?)

It's clear, though, that the Imperium consists of slightly fewer
than 11,000 worlds, by  about 36%!

On to populations:

Using the numbers here, the total population of the Imperium is as
follows:

Total Population		28,051,512,234,733
average population		3,992,529,495
		Std.dev	14,914,515,513

Number of Worlds	UWP Pop figure
536	10
323	9
470	8
606	7
621	6
732	5
711	4
596	3
506	2
403	1
1520	0

There are 536 worlds with a population greater than 10 billion!

So now, David's  numbers of 5,625,000,000 MCr in ships, and
160,000-4,400,000 MCr per Month on Salaries can be put into real
taxation terms.

Naval crew sizes. 

	David estimates that under MT rules, the Navy has
crewing requirements of 120 to 1120 million members. These figures
are .0004% to .004% of the total population. If we extend this to
(roughly) current US populations, that would give us a Navy staffing
of just over a thousand to just under 10,000 people. This is a very
small part of the population. 

Naval ships (excepting, of course, in times of war) last a long
time. I'll be very conservative, and estimate 20 years. (This is
probably much shorter_after all; standard ship purchase contracts
are 40 year mortgages) That puts annual capital expenses at
281,250,000 MCr/year. 

	 I'll pick the middle figure for crewing requirements, 2,280,000
MCR/mo or 27,360,000 MCr/year. This gives a total funding figure for
the Navy for capital ships and crew alone as 308,610,000 MCr / year. 

That means the average Imperial citizen pays (let me check my number
of zeros, here) 77,296 Cr annually for the munificent protection of
the Imperial Navy. 

	It's quite possible that one or more of us is off by a significant 
number of decimal places.  I'll have to recheck my figures and see; 
but I am pretty confident of those population figures.

	In a later post I'll break down the populations of the major 
factions, (if someone can tell me what all the %#@$# allegiance codes 
are?)








Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: William A Humphrey <wh2a+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:10:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: QSDS/SSDS discrepancies and proofreading

Sigh... 
I know that Dave and Guy("Derek") have been working their backsides off
trying to cobble togther a worthwhile design system virtually overnight,
and I admire them for it.

Unfortunately, I've come up with yet another mismatch between the QSDS
and the SSDS: lasers.  I cannot make any of the laser weapons in the
SSDS duplicate a standard civilian battery.  Power is the worst: it
seems that the batteries from QSDS require about 5 to 10 times the power
of any weapon listed in QSDS.  For example, the basic TL-11 civilian
battery (listed as containing one weapon) has a USD battery value of
1-0-0-0, so will the 72 MJ TL-11 laser.  The volumes are the same (a
standard 42 m^3 / 3 ton turret).  The power in QSDS is 11 MW; the power
in SSDS is 2 MW.  Since this is the only TL-11 light laser turret in the
SSDS, it would seem necessary for compatibility that this is the weapon
which comprises the civilian battery in QSDS.

Also, several of the batteries in QSDS refer to multiple weapons,
whereas there is no mention of mounting multiple weapons in a single
turret in SSDS.  Are triple turrets allowed or not?  If not, the QSDS
needs to replace the number of weapons with a remark that the weapon is
rapid-fire, which increases the effectiveness.  If so, the SSDS needs to
explain how to do so.

Derek mentioned to me that the electronics packages do not contain
precisely the same equipment between the two systems, either.

I think we need to have a large outcry to Imperium Games that the
philosophy behind the QSDS and SSDS (and whatever the revised FF&S will
be called) was that SSDS is a simplification of FF&S, QSDS is a
simplification of SSDS.  Every component in each system should be
exactly reproducible with the next more complex system.  I should be
able to work out the numbers for structure, armor, life support,
controls, air locks, artificial gravity, inertial compensation,
contra-gravity lifters, and fuel scoops with the SSDS and exactly
replicate (within round-off error in the last decimal place) a hull
given in the QSDS.  

** If the systems as they exist now do not uphold this philosophy, then
they should be fixed! **  

I realize it's far too late to get any corrections into the main
rulebook.  Perhaps an errata sheet can be ready in time to be shipped
with the books?  I will, however, gladly wait an extra month (or two)
for the starships supplement if it's RIGHT when I finally get it.  And
for those who desire the extra level of detail which causes them to buy
the starships supplement, some errata on the QSDS might be in order.
- --
                                            Bill H
"Only one...has survived battle with [us].  He is behind me; you are in 
front of me.  If you value your lives, be somwhere else!"
                                                    - Ambassador Delenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #174
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 27 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 175

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Hopes for T4
         2. Imperial Military Budget
         3. Fallen Empires
         4. Re: Mileu 1200...Virus plotting ideas...
         5. Re: Sylean Medium Warship -- QSD Design
         6. Re: Stere
         7. Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!
         8. Re: Hopes for T4
         9. Re: Proposed Rules for Age Effects
        10. Re: Armor for spaceships
        11. Re: Standard Ship Design system
        12. Re: Help!
        13. Re: No Fun
        14. Re: Proposed Rules for Age Effects
        15. New formats available for SSDS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:41:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Hopes for T4

>Perhaps something like the TNE boxed set, which included FF&S (a good
supplement
>regardless of how detailed you wanted to run your campaign).  Besides
forms, the
>T4 boxed set might possibly include the eventual soft-cover release of T4,
>Milieu 0, and maybe even Starships or the Central Supply Catalog.  Much more
>than that and it would be too expensive for most people.

The only problem with that is it's getting quite expensive already:

$25 - Softcover T4
$20 - Starships\Central Supply Catalog
$20 - Milieu 0
$10? - Forms

That adds up to $75!!!  Now, take into effec that normally buying things in
bulk is cheaper I'd still say that the Deluxe Boxed set would add up to
$50!!  at least.  Perhaps the Starships\CSC can be cut, that'd lower the
price to a more reasonable (and on par with TSR boxed sets) $30 - $40.

>> >> Another idea would be for IG to make up HTML or Abode PDF character
sheets,
>> >> and other forms available freely on their Web page.  IG, are you listening
>> >> to this?? :)
>
>It wouldn't even have to be IG... just someone with some time and IG's
>permission.  But I *definitely* like the idea of having certain forms available
>on line, since "permission to photocopy" such forms would mean that there would
>be little money to be lost in such an endevor (except for what IG would want to
>charge for the original forms).

How could they charge for the original form is it's online?  Am I
misunderstanding you here?

Peter Miller


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 27 Jun 96 15:08:48 MS
Subject: Imperial Military Budget

OK, so based on Steve Bonneville and Wildstar's estimates, the Imperium is 
bringing in 2 quadrillion credits (2,000,000,000,000,000 Cr for you UK types) 
per year for military funding.  This is 1% of the combined Gross Planetary 
Product of the worlds of the Imperium.  Of this, by David Broussard's 
calculations, the Imperial Navy is spending 5 trillion credits 
(5,000,000,000,000 Cr) per month on military salaries, or 60 trillion 
(60,000,000,000,000) per year.

David's estimates put the value of the Imperium's Capital ships at 3.75 
Quadrillion Cr (3,750,000,000,000,000) and the value of the Imperial Navy's 
fighters and non-jump warships at 2.5 quadrillion cr (2,500,000,000,000,000 
cr).  I would estimate the cost of the Imperial Navy's auxilliaries and 
facilities would come in about the same as the captial ships; another 3.75 
Quadrillion Cr (3,750,000,000,000,000).  Altogether, this would be 10 
Quadrillion Cr (10,000,000,000,000,000 cr) 
I would expect that operating and maintenance expenses would come in at 1% of 
total value per month, which would be 100 trillion credits (100,000,000,000,000 
cr), or 1.2 quadrillion credits (1,200,000,000,000,000 cr) per year.  Overall, 
the Imperium would be spending 105 trillion credits (105,000,000,000,000 cr) 
per month, or 1.26 quadrillion credits (1,260,000,000,000,000 cr) per year on 
maintaining the Imperial Navy and Marines.  That would leave about 740 trillion 
credits (740,000,000,000,000 cr) for the acquisition of new naval vessels and 
facilities, or for major overheal of same.

Assuminmg the Imperial Army is not just a skeleton force used to command 
drafted army units from Imperial worlds, I would suspect that the Imperial Army 
would need another 5 trillion credits (5,000,000,000,000 Cr) per month for 
salaries, and probably would have 2.5 quadrillion cr (2,500,000,000,000,000 cr) 
woth of equipment or facilities of their own (a guess based on US 
Navy/Marine/Air Force costs compared to US Army costs).  If handled like the 
Imperial Navy costs, this would mean monthly Army expenditures of 
30,000,000,000,000 cr, or an annual cost of 360,000,000,000,000; a real bargain 
compared to the Navy.

So, if you are getting 2,000,000,000,000,000 in taxes and spending 
1,620,000,000,000,000 on maintaining the military, you have 380,000,000,000,000 
left to buy new equipment, fund the rest of the Empire and expend largesse on 
the masses.  Or is the tax noted above only for military?

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com
scharlto@rtd.com
I've used up all of my zeros...

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 27 Jun 96 14:29:29 MS
Subject: Fallen Empires

I posted this question earlier, but I think my mail server ate it before it 
made it to TML:

How do you suppose people view the Rule of Man in Mileu 0?

I think we have two potential models here.  The first, from Terran history, 
would be the awe and reverence that the Roman Empire was held in by the 
societies of Dark Ages Europe.  Nobody blamed the lack of long-distance trade 
or the suppression of finer art, culture and education on the Romans; the 
empire was seen as a good time that might be recaptured.  Many of the larger 
groups and organizations tried to use bits and pieces of Roman culture to make 
themsleves more appealing and acceptable.  For an example of this, look at the 
Catholic Church or some of the unification efforts like the Holy Roman Empire.  
The HRE was not holy, was nowhere near Rome and was a fairly pathetic excuse 
for an empire, but by taking on the mantle of imperial Rome the HRE was able to 
be much more successful than it would have been without that name recognition.

The second model comes from GDW.  In all of their Reformation Coalition 
material, the Imperium was seen as a bad and evil thing.  The collapse of 
civilization and trade, and the ruin and general decay of the former Imperium, 
was blamed on the imperials and their blunders.  I suspect that the Regency was 
not going to face much of a military problem from the Reformation Coalition, 
but its association with the Imperium was probably going to cause it a lot of 
problems in trying to assimilate areas that had spent the last 80+ years hating 
the Imperium.

I _think_ the first model is more likely for Mileu 0, just based on what little 
canon references are out there about that period.  I'm sure some worlds will 
tend more towards the second model and require a more militant effort to become 
part of the Imperium, but by and large I think most worlds will be enticed by 
the economic potential involved in a new Imperium, and join in with only a 
little persuasion (little being a relative term here; we are talking about 
whole subsectors and sectors of people).

This question brings up another important question:  Why are the Syleans 
expanding?   I suspect that it is largely an economic reason; expansion = new 
and bigger markets and wealth for all.  This is all very nice, but it is hard 
to sell a long-term campaign of expansion by promising a better standard of 
living.  So maybe the question here is actually "How is the Sylean government 
explaining this expansion to its own people?"

One idea I may wind up using (depending on whats in the Mileu 0 sourcebook, of 
course) might be a quasi-crusade to unite humanity under one government.  If 
you have read The Mote in God's Eye (or Jerry Pournelle's other 
Codominium/Imperium books), there was something similar in that series.  The 
preious Empire had been torn apart in a civil war that started when independent 
states fielded fleets and began arming separatists in the Empire.  Now that the 
Empire is reforming, the government and Navy has become very fanatical about 
controlling ALL human worlds, so that such a civil war cannot happen again.

Anybody got some other ideas?

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com
scharlto@rtd.com

------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 17:51:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Mileu 1200...Virus plotting ideas...

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> Tom Miller wrote:
>
> >Could be, Could be.That's a very strong possibility.The Hiver's natural
> >curiousity and technical knowhow would lead me to believe they took
> >apart an Imperial transponder and found one of those chips.  Perhaps
> >they just took them from the transponders and developed 'baby-Virus' on
> >their own form there.
>
> This is an extreme possiblity.  Inspite of the fact that the transponder
> was supposed to kill chip if the box was ever tampered with perhaps the
> Hivers' figured it out.

That's the problem with those systems---given enough time, they can be
figured out.

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
   "And on the eighth day, the Army Corps of Engineers changed everything."


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 17:55:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Sylean Medium Warship -- QSD Design

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Bri wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Bri wrote:
>
> > vessels, and this is from one COUNTRY, the Imperium had 100,000+ worlds!
> >  Lets face it, there would be at least a thousand Tigress dreadnoughts
> > floating around.... Let alone the 1.5 odd MILLION cruiser class vessels.
>  Hmmm, that's why my numbers were soo off the wall when I checked them
> against that recent post. Thousand pardons, I have *no* idea where the
> 100,000 worlds came from. Bleh, I'm out of it today :P
>  Altho, i've always thouhgt that 11,000 was a small figure for the
> Imperium.

Actually 11000 worlds makes a fair amount of sense..if every subsector had
25 inhabitable worlds, and the Imperium spanned 20 sectors, then the
Imperium would have 8000 inhabitable (inhabited) systems.  Those numbers
are completely off the cusp...maybe someone with more sourcebooks could
give a statistically more accurate view...

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
   "And on the eighth day, the Army Corps of Engineers changed everything."


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 17:56:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Stere

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 06/26/96 at 09:29 PM,  Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> said:
>
> >Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
> >> I'd never heard of Stere before, looked it up, Stere = 1 cubic meter
> >> sure enough.
>
> >I've heard a Stere before.  MOOOOOOOOO!!!!  8)
>
> Come on Stanley, where's the beef?

You're stereing us off topic.

> >Sorry Couldn't resist.
>
> Me neither. ;->

Ditto.

> Eris

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
   "And on the eighth day, the Army Corps of Engineers changed everything."


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 18:01:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, James Lindsay wrote:

> ...Add text to limit the number of Spinal Mounts that can be installed.

Wouldn't a ship with any more than one spinal mount be considered to have
parallel mounts...?

> ...Maybe explain why you'd want to use TL9-11 Fusion plants when TL8 Fission
> plants are cheaper & smaller (ie: what are the game effects to using fission).

A flying Hanford (you know, the site in SW Washington that is leaking all
sorts of grotesque things into the Columbia...)

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
   "And on the eighth day, the Army Corps of Engineers changed everything."


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 20:05:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hopes for T4

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Tom Miller wrote:

> The only problem with that is it's getting quite expensive already:
> 
> $25 - Softcover T4
> $20 - Starships\Central Supply Catalog
> $20 - Milieu 0
> $10? - Forms
> 
> That adds up to $75!!!  Now, take into effec that normally buying things in
> bulk is cheaper I'd still say that the Deluxe Boxed set would add up to
> $50!!  at least.  Perhaps the Starships\CSC can be cut, that'd lower the
> price to a more reasonable (and on par with TSR boxed sets) $30 - $40.

I'm not saying TNE is a model of success, but the TNE boxed set I just 
purchased, with TNE, FF&S, and some misc. charts in it was $46.00.  So, 
if the price could get down to $50, perhaps it isn't an unreasonable 
amount.

Then again, I'm so out of touch with present-day RPg prices (TNE is the 
first RPG non-supplement I've purchased in several years), what do I 
know? :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 18:08:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Proposed Rules for Age Effects

> > Modern medicine can't do much about aging, but modern medicine is
> > advancing *very* fast.  We have not yet mapped the human genome or begun
> > to really understand how many drugs and body processes work.  We will
> > likely have this knowledge within 20-30 years.

(Don't let this get into Traveller!)  Scientific American ran an article
some months back that said that the genome researchers may be getting
close to isolating the gene for aging.  If I can find the article I will
post more info on it...(gaack.  Welcome to 30 term characters, yikes.)

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
   "And on the eighth day, the Army Corps of Engineers changed everything."


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:10:24 -0600
Subject: Re: Armor for spaceships

At 02:50 pm 6/27/96 +0100, you wrote:
>I seem to recall somewhere that all spaceships had to have a 
>av of 1, to withstand micrometeors?
>Why do the qdsd or whatever it is have a av of 0?

        QSDS armor factors aren't the same as FF&S armor factors, although
they're derived. For the new combat system we needed to generate something
similar to the old Universal Ship Profile, called a Universal Ship
Description. Take the FF&S armor factor, use the BR conversion chart, then
multiply by 10 to get the USD factor. FF&S armor of less than 20 comes out
as USD 0.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:10:29 -0600
Subject: Re: Standard Ship Design system

At 11:54 am 6/27/96 -0500, you wrote:
>When figuring the amount of usable space aboard, it says to multiply the
>Volume factor by the # of Gs in order to see the amount of space dedicated
>to the internal structure of the ship.
>
>Example:  200mt/2800m3 streamlined Box at 1G, TL12 (Factor .77) gives a
>number of .77.  If this is then multiplied by the ships mass or volume, it

        NONONONONONO!

>seems like an awful lot of space is lost for structure.  If it is instead
>used to determine how much space is left, why do higher tech levels have
>smaller numbers?

        "Under Volume Factor, find the column for the tech level, and find
the row for the displacement. Multiply the number there by the maximum Gs to
determine the amount of hull volume (in m3) that is dedicated to the
internal structure of the ship."

        Take the volume factor (0.77), and multiply by the maximum Gs (1),
and you get 0.77m3. Don't multiply by ship's mass or volume ... everything
is built into the volume factor except Gs.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:10:50 -0600
Subject: Re: Help!

At 02:56 pm 6/26/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Why can I not unsubscribe? I've tried the following formats....
>unsubscribe traveller
>unsubscribe druid@datatek.com
>unsubscribe traveller druid@datatek.com
>traveller unsubscribe
>ONE of these should work, Right?

        Wrong. None of these are addressed to the list MANAGER ... they're
all addressed to the LIST. Send a message to "majordomo@mpgn.com" with the
contents "unsubscribe traveller"

        PS: Most mailing lists work this way ... anything sent to the list
is simply spewed out to everybody else. Commands *have* to be sent to a
separate address. And when you sign up for a list, they ALL send you a
message telling you how to unsubscribe. Perhaps you should make a habit of
saving such useful information.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:11:11 -0600
Subject: Re: No Fun

At 02:12 pm 6/27/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
>
>> This is no fun, I'm actually having to do work cause I'm running out of mail
>> to read!!!  :)
>
>We must have run out of Threads That Wouldn't Die. :)

        OK, to keep the messages flowing ... can anybody explain to me what
the heck a "Feudal Technocracy" is and what its effects are on a game?

        (Ducks, runs for cover).
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 20:16:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Proposed Rules for Age Effects

Hi Bill,

Before I get to your comments, I want to mention something I forgot 
about when making previous posts:

The only way the sort of radical aging system change we're proposing can 
work without upsetting play balance (IMO) is if the survival throws are 
kept...or some other factor is introduced in character generation to keep 
players from generating 100-year-old characters with every skill under 
the sun and having another 100 years to adventure.  

Now, on to the reply:


On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Bill Garmer wrote:

> I like this thread about alternate aging tables.  Many of my characters have
> taken the plunge pass the forth term (I believe in skills over stats in many
> situations) but the ideal that someone in a high tech society in an
> occupation that demands fitness (military - police - etc) should not suffer
> an aging loss at 34.  This brings up another concept - how about modifing
> the aging roll due to occupation - especially true if a TL2 character joins
> the Imperium Navy.

Hmmm.  I'd really hate for the aging system to become so realistic it is 
impossibly complex, but what you're saying does make sense.  What do 
others think?  Where do we draw the line vis a vis modifiers to aging throws?

> On the other hand - the GM should be careful since world TL refers to what a
> world is able to produce.  Thus, if a character's home world is TL 2 - it
> may mean that his parents are living on a colony or science station.  As
> such - he would have access to some of finest medical care available.

This is a sticky problem I've been thinking about as well.  To me, the 
most relevant tech level in terms of what we're dealing with is the TL of 
the medicine and treatment the character has available throughout his/her 
life...not just at birth, not just while being generated, and not just 
while adventuring.

Here's one proposal:

Childhood:  Ignore it.  Any character generated should be supposed to be 
a healthy specimen.  Either they're one of the masses of healthy people 
from a medium-to-high tech world, or they're one of the few lucky ones to 
be healthy coming out of a low-tech world.

During Generation:  Use the TL of the Milieu if it's an Imperial job (ie, 
Scouts, Navy, Army, Mercenary, etc.) or a job with a lot of travel 
(Merchant, Entertainer, etc.).  If it's a generally stay-at-home 
character type (ie, street tough, starport police, etc.), then use the 
tech level of the environment (the referee will have to determine this).

When adventuring:  This one is going to be in the area of referee 
judgement.  It will depend on where the character goes, what he does, 
etc.  I'd say use the predominant tech level experienced during the 
majority of the character's last four years.  If he spent two years in a 
stark prison cell with no medical facilities provided, use the TL 0-1 
row.  If he was hopping from world to world, using mostly Class A 
starports and whatnot, use the Milieu's max TL.  

What do you think?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:11:43 -0600
Subject: New formats available for SSDS

        For those of you having trouble with the Word 6 version of the SSDS
draft, I've posted what Don actually submitted in Word 6, Word 2 and RTF
formats. The files are

        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/ShipsW6.doc
        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/ShipsW2.doc
        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/Ships.rtf

        I hope this helps a bit. Please notice that some errors in the file
have already been pointed out. Here's a partial quote of the messages I've
sent IG:

>        (1) In the weapon section, under laser bays, the table labelled "50
displacement ton Laser Bays," in the text just above the actual table it
says "The rate of fire of any turret ..." This should read "The rate of fire
of any bay ..."
>
>        (2) In the controls and electronics section, the Military package
is described as having "1x 120,000km PEMS folding array (reminder that it
can't be used while maneuvering)," but should read "2x 120,000km PEMS
folding array (ship can't accelerate while deployed)"
>
>        (3) The Life Support section has no description of the difference
between Basic and Standard life support. Suggest the following:
>
>        "Basic Life Support provides a sealed hull, air and water, and is
intended for short periods of time (up to about eight hours). Standard Life
Support provides the same, and adds waste disposal or recycling and food,
and is designed for up to four weeks. Either form of life support has quite
a bit of safety margin built in, and can be stretched to double its intended
load for twice as long."
>
>        (4) Under weapons, the explanation of choosing a meson screen is
apparently unclear. It currently reads "Choose the protective value you
want, then find it in the chart under your ship size category." Suggest it
be changed to read "Choose a meson screen from the chart. In the column
under the ship size category for your hull, note the protective value that
screen provides."


>In the controls and electronics section, the Military package is described
as having "1x 300,000km LaserComm (for controlling missiles)." That one
should read "2x" as well.
>

>        It just keeps going and going and going and going ... the fuel
consumption values for the Fusion Drive are wrong. They were calculated in
tonnes mass instead of cubic meters volume. All the values need to be
multiplied by 14. Attached is the correct table.
>
>        Under Weapons, note that turrets and bay weapons may either be
installed up to the limits of the available surface area of the ship, or the
designer may choose the simple rule of thumb of 1 turret maximum per 100
displacement tons OR 1 bay maximum per 1000 displacement tons. Only one
spinal mount may be installed per ship.
>
>        Under defenses, delete the reference to Tractors/Repulsors ...
those didn't make it into the rules.
>
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #175
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 28 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 176

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Population of the Imperium, and the taxes they pay (LONG)
         2. Re: QSDS/SSDS discrepancies and proofreading
         3. Re: QSDS/SSDS discrepancies and proofreading
         4. Re: Fallen Empires
         5. Re: New formats available for SSDS
         6. FFSlight/ final.doc
         7. Re: New formats available for SSDS
         8. Why discuss the Imp Navy
         9. Re: New formats available for SSDS
        10. Re: Why discuss the Imp Navy
        11. GDW mentions in Shadis #26
        12. Imperial Taxation
        13. Re: Hopes for T4
        14. Re:  QSDS/SSDS discrepancies and proofreading

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 20:23:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Population of the Imperium, and the taxes they pay (LONG)

Whooo boy, another important post.  We may not be seeing 150 posts per 
day anymore, but the posts we're seeing sure do have great content!

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Using the numbers here, the total population of the Imperium is as
> follows:
> 
> Total Population		28,051,512,234,733
> average population		3,992,529,495
> 		Std.dev	14,914,515,513

Wow.  I would have thought the population would be much higher.  The more 
I think about it, though, an average population of 4 billion (thousand 
million) per world makes sense.


> Number of Worlds	UWP Pop figure
> 536	10
> 323	9
> 470	8
> 606	7
> 621	6
> 732	5
> 711	4
> 596	3
> 506	2
> 403	1
> 1520	0
> 
> There are 536 worlds with a population greater than 10 billion!

And 1,520 worlds with a populatio of 0!  Surprising.  I always thought 
Traveller over-estimated the frequency of worlds well-suited to human 
habitation.  

> So now, David's  numbers of 5,625,000,000 MCr in ships, and
> 160,000-4,400,000 MCr per Month on Salaries can be put into real
> taxation terms.

Yaaay!  

> Naval crew sizes. 
> 
> 	David estimates that under MT rules, the Navy has
> crewing requirements of 120 to 1120 million members. These figures
> are .0004% to .004% of the total population. If we extend this to
> (roughly) current US populations, that would give us a Navy staffing
> of just over a thousand to just under 10,000 people. This is a very
> small part of the population. 

Another surprise for me.

> Naval ships (excepting, of course, in times of war) last a long
> time. I'll be very conservative, and estimate 20 years. (This is
> probably much shorter_after all; standard ship purchase contracts
> are 40 year mortgages) That puts annual capital expenses at
> 281,250,000 MCr/year. 
> 
> 	 I'll pick the middle figure for crewing requirements, 2,280,000
> MCR/mo or 27,360,000 MCr/year. This gives a total funding figure for
> the Navy for capital ships and crew alone as 308,610,000 MCr / year. 
> 
> That means the average Imperial citizen pays (let me check my number
> of zeros, here) 77,296 Cr annually for the munificent protection of
> the Imperial Navy. 

Aigh!  Considering the retirement pay scales, most citizens of the 
Imperium had better be successful adventurers. :)  Otherwise the tax man 
will be hounding them constantly.


> 	It's quite possible that one or more of us is off by a significant 
> number of decimal places.  I'll have to recheck my figures and see; 
> but I am pretty confident of those population figures.
> 
> 	In a later post I'll break down the populations of the major 
> factions, (if someone can tell me what all the %#@$# allegiance codes 
> are?)

I look forward to it.  Thanks for taking the time to figure all that out 
and post it for us!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:32:00 -0600
Subject: Re: QSDS/SSDS discrepancies and proofreading

At 07:10 pm 6/27/96 -0400, William A Humphrey <wh2a+@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>Unfortunately, I've come up with yet another mismatch between the QSDS
>and the SSDS: lasers.  I cannot make any of the laser weapons in the
>SSDS duplicate a standard civilian battery.  Power is the worst: it

        I'm not sure what the QSDS difference between civilian and military
lasers is ... lasers are lasers.

>seems that the batteries from QSDS require about 5 to 10 times the power
>of any weapon listed in QSDS.  For example, the basic TL-11 civilian
>battery (listed as containing one weapon) has a USD battery value of
>1-0-0-0, so will the 72 MJ TL-11 laser.  The volumes are the same (a
>standard 42 m^3 / 3 ton turret).  The power in QSDS is 11 MW; the power
>in SSDS is 2 MW.  Since this is the only TL-11 light laser turret in the

        I'm pretty sure about the laser tables, as I was able to reproduce
the "stock" weapons. As a rough approximation, a 72MJ discharge energy
translates to 360MJ input energy. Rate of Fire times Input Energy divided by
1800 is the power input required for the weapon: 2MJ.

>SSDS, it would seem necessary for compatibility that this is the weapon
>which comprises the civilian battery in QSDS.

        Not really ... why duplicate? If you've already got it in QSDS...

>Also, several of the batteries in QSDS refer to multiple weapons,
>whereas there is no mention of mounting multiple weapons in a single
>turret in SSDS.  Are triple turrets allowed or not?  If not, the QSDS

        I don't know ... they weren't under FF&S, which was our basis. Each
of the turrets in SSDS only has ROOM for a single laser. An extension to
FF&S later may allow for multiple weapons.

>Derek mentioned to me that the electronics packages do not contain
>precisely the same equipment between the two systems, either.
>
>I think we need to have a large outcry to Imperium Games that the
>philosophy behind the QSDS and SSDS (and whatever the revised FF&S will
>be called) was that SSDS is a simplification of FF&S, QSDS is a
>simplification of SSDS.  Every component in each system should be

        Well, not quite. SSDS is a simplification of FF&S, QSDS is an even
greater simplification; not necessarily derived directly from SSDS. However,
since they're both supposed to be derived from FF&S, they should be compatible.

>exactly reproducible with the next more complex system.  I should be
>able to work out the numbers for structure, armor, life support,
>controls, air locks, artificial gravity, inertial compensation,
>contra-gravity lifters, and fuel scoops with the SSDS and exactly
>replicate (within round-off error in the last decimal place) a hull
>given in the QSDS.  

        Agreed simply because both are based on FF&S, but why would you want
to?If it's already available in QSDS, there's no need to do it under SSDS.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 20:46:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: QSDS/SSDS discrepancies and proofreading

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, William A Humphrey wrote:

> Sigh... 
> I know that Dave and Guy("Derek") have been working their backsides off
> trying to cobble togther a worthwhile design system virtually overnight,
> and I admire them for it.

Me, too.  And the folks at IG.

> ** If the systems as they exist now do not uphold this philosophy, then
> they should be fixed! **  

Yes.  

If it is true that there are incompatabilities and errors (and I'm not 
the one to judge that...I fell in love with QSDS and just haven't had the 
impetus to download SSDS and work with a second system), they should be 
fixed.  I'm not implying anything about your abilities, William, by the 
way.  It's just that there have been several messages pointing out 
problems with the sytem (including at least one from me!) that turned out 
not to be problems with the systems, but with people's understanding of 
the systems.

Again, I am not pointing fingers and crying when I didn't do 
anything to help in this process.  I appreciate the efforts of David and 
Guy very very much...especially since they did it for the love of the 
game, not for money.  But I love this game, too, and I want very much for 
it to be the best it can possibly be.  After all my hyping of the game to 
everyone who will listen, I'd hate for it to be an embarassment. (not 
that anyone else wants that!)

> I realize it's far too late to get any corrections into the main
> rulebook.  Perhaps an errata sheet can be ready in time to be shipped
> with the books?  I will, however, gladly wait an extra month (or two)
> for the starships supplement if it's RIGHT when I finally get it.  And
> for those who desire the extra level of detail which causes them to buy
> the starships supplement, some errata on the QSDS might be in order.

Again, /if it is true that there are serious problems in compatability 
between the three systems/:

Since it is too late to get the corrections into the main rulebook, 
which contains QSDS, perhaps the best course would be to make QSDS the 
standard, and back out the changes into SSDS and FF&S /where possible/.  
That would limit the errata, at least.

[Sigh]  There just wasn't enough time . . .

David? Guy?  Are there indeed problems of compatability?  If so, what can 
be done?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 20:52:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Fallen Empires

On 27 Jun 1996, Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:

> I _think_ the first model is more likely for Mileu 0, just based on what little 
> canon references are out there about that period.  I'm sure some worlds will 
> tend more towards the second model and require a more militant effort to become 
> part of the Imperium, but by and large I think most worlds will be enticed by 
> the economic potential involved in a new Imperium, and join in with only a 
> little persuasion (little being a relative term here; we are talking about 
> whole subsectors and sectors of people).

I had always understood the Rule of Man (AKA the Ramshackle Empire) was 
looked on with disdain by quite a number of people.  This leads me to 
believe there would be more resistance to a new Imperium...

> This question brings up another important question:  Why are the Syleans 
> expanding?   I suspect that it is largely an economic reason; expansion = new 
> and bigger markets and wealth for all.  This is all very nice, but it is hard 
> to sell a long-term campaign of expansion by promising a better standard of 
> living.  So maybe the question here is actually "How is the Sylean government 
> explaining this expansion to its own people?"

Oooh.  Interesting.  From my knowledge of history (which is, admittedly, 
limited), I'd say convincing the population that expansion of their 
territory is a good thing wouldn't be difficult.  Convincing others to 
join would be for some, not for others, on a case-by-case basis, however.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 20:55:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: New formats available for SSDS

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

>         For those of you having trouble with the Word 6 version of the SSDS
> draft, I've posted what Don actually submitted in Word 6, Word 2 and RTF
> formats. The files are
> 
>         http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/ShipsW6.doc
>         http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/ShipsW2.doc
>         http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/Ships.rtf

Woo-hoo!

>         I hope this helps a bit. Please notice that some errors in the file
> have already been pointed out. Here's a partial quote of the messages I've
> sent IG:

Double Woo-Hoo!  Mebbe the reports of incompatability are greatly 
exaggerated after all.  We on the lists just don't know what the final 
verson really looks like, that's all.  (I hope.)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: jeff_michelle nort <103010.212@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 27 Jun 96 22:08:00 EDT
Subject: FFSlight/ final.doc

	I tried to download the doc at the homepage, but the server says that the
document is not 
there. I tried to go about the homepage and the document itself isn't there
also.
	Whats up?
	Gremlins?
	Please let me know what I did wrong. Or when I can download.
	
	Thanks, Dave.

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 20:14:18 -0600
Subject: Re: New formats available for SSDS

At 08:55 pm 6/27/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, David J. Golden wrote:
>
>>         For those of you having trouble with the Word 6 version of the SSDS
>> draft, I've posted what Don actually submitted in Word 6, Word 2 and RTF
>> formats. The files are
>> 
>>         http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/ShipsW6.doc
>>         http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/ShipsW2.doc
>>         http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/Ships.rtf
>
>Woo-hoo!

        *&(%@($^%#^@$ MicroShaft !@(*&$^#*&%)#*%^. I didn't install the Word
2.0 converter when I first loaded Office. Now my CD drive's on a different
letter, and those moronic twits that wrote the &*^$@#^( setup program aren't
smart enough to deal with that -- it insists on looking at E: and won't let
me tell it F:. So I couldn't install the Word2 converter. Sorry, folks.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:27:37 -0500
Subject: Why discuss the Imp Navy

Joe,
	You ask what possessed me to do all of that work.  Well, first off I am
just starting up a Rebellion game on Sunday using MT rules (hopefully
easier to transition to T4), and I plan to have Pirates figure prominently
in the beginning to allow some time for the news to bypass the characters,
and let the Solomoni Invasion forces reach the edge of the Diaspora
Sector.  I need about 6-18 months by my calculations.  I needed a good
idea of the relative strengths of the Imp Navy in the Solomoni Rim, and
elsewhere.

The second reason was that someone had mentioned thousands of Tigress
class dreadnoughts running around, and at first glance that number seemed
awfully high, after my calculations, it now seems about right (but just
for that class).  It also fit in with the taxation thread.

Lastly I was hoping that it might finally kill the Virus line, Please,
Please, Please...we all have the points, now is the time to agree to
disagree.
DCB
- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 21:48:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: New formats available for SSDS

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

>         *&(%@($^%#^@$ MicroShaft !@(*&$^#*&%)#*%^. I didn't install the Word
> 2.0 converter when I first loaded Office. Now my CD drive's on a different
> letter, and those moronic twits that wrote the &*^$@#^( setup program aren't
> smart enough to deal with that -- it insists on looking at E: and won't let
> me tell it F:. So I couldn't install the Word2 converter. Sorry, folks.

Ah, that's why I couldn't find it. :)  I downloaded the RTF one.  
Hopefully that will work (I downloaded it to my space on my ISP's 
machine...I'm on the Atari right now, and that 800K file isn't going to 
fit into its 256K memory:).  I'll load it into WP 6.0a this weekend and 
see what happens.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 21:50:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Why discuss the Imp Navy

On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, David C.. Broussard wrote:

> Joe,
> 	You ask what possessed me to do all of that work.  Well, first off I am
> just starting up a Rebellion game on Sunday using MT rules (hopefully
> easier to transition to T4), and I plan to have Pirates figure prominently
> in the beginning to allow some time for the news to bypass the characters,
> and let the Solomoni Invasion forces reach the edge of the Diaspora
> Sector.  I need about 6-18 months by my calculations.  I needed a good
> idea of the relative strengths of the Imp Navy in the Solomoni Rim, and
> elsewhere.

Oh, I wasn't complaining!  That was admiration... :)  And, no, I won't 
give you a dollar for it. :P


> The second reason was that someone had mentioned thousands of Tigress
> class dreadnoughts running around, and at first glance that number seemed
> awfully high, after my calculations, it now seems about right (but just
> for that class).  It also fit in with the taxation thread.

Yep.  All the stuff that's come out of the taxation thread has been 
great.  I'm loving it.

Good luck with your new campaign.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:00:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: GDW mentions in Shadis #26

I received the latest issue of Shadis, the independent games magazine, in 
the mail yesterday.  I've spotted two favorable GDW mentions in it:

In a sidebar to the article on "Steampunk," they mention Space: 1889 as 
being, "an excellent place to go for flavor." (p 28)

In an article on Call of Cthulhu, writer Kevin Jones mentions Traveller 
thusly: "My friend had a very good point [which was, why try Cthulhu if 
you 'know' the premise won't allow you to enjoy the game] that I won't 
even try to argue.  If you're not into science fiction, you don't play 
Traveller.  If you don't like high heroic fantasy, you don't play D&D."

It seems Traveller is still the archetypical Sci-Fi RPG.  This bodes well 
for T4.

I emailed Shadis (shadis2@aol.com) asking them whether they had plans to 
mention IG, FFE, and Marc Miller's Traveller in their monthly "Gaming 
Industry News" column.  I also gave them a small amount of detail on the 
game and IG, plus some resources for them to research the new game should 
they wish to use them (this list, IG, IG's web page, the AOL chat room 
archives, etc.).

Hopefully they'll mention the coming return of Traveller soon.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:33:54 -0500
Subject: Imperial Taxation

"Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU> really put in some work
on this one.  Thank a whole bunch.  I was going over my numbers and I also
have a few new points to make...

OK, my numbers were about 5,625,000,000 MCr in ships.  I would actually
amortize these over longer than 20 years (40-60 yrs to be exact).  Also I
included reserve fleets in addition to Regular fleets.  The one really
huge expense that we are missing unfortunately is the cost of building and
maintaining the naval bases, and providing all of the ancillary expenses
included with personnel.  I based my salaries on 2,000Cr per month, it
might be more, and you should include at least 50% of a salary for befits,
maybe more in the military (pensions, etc).

Still 77KCr/year per person is a bit steep.
DCB
- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:48:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Hopes for T4

>> That adds up to $75!!!  Now, take into effec that normally buying things in
>> bulk is cheaper I'd still say that the Deluxe Boxed set would add up to
>> $50!!  at least.  Perhaps the Starships\CSC can be cut, that'd lower the
>> price to a more reasonable (and on par with TSR boxed sets) $30 - $40.
>
>I'm not saying TNE is a model of success, but the TNE boxed set I just 
>purchased, with TNE, FF&S, and some misc. charts in it was $46.00.  So, 
>if the price could get down to $50, perhaps it isn't an unreasonable 
>amount.

I suppose it isn't, in American dollars (which incidently, the prices are
in), but for me, living in Canada something that's $50 American can
translate into $65!  Which, is quite a lot really.  I think the  Rule book,
Forms, and Mileu 0 would be a fine boxed set though.

>Then again, I'm so out of touch with present-day RPg prices (TNE is the 
>first RPG non-supplement I've purchased in several years), what do I 
>know? :)

Well, going with current AD&D prices, to get the basic game that we're
suggesting with the T4 boxed set costs the following:

(prices are Canadian, they're the only ones I know)

Dungeon Master's Guide -- $25
Player's Handbook -- $25
Monstrous Manual -- $25
Character Sheets -- $12
Arms & Equipment Guide (the most similar thing to CSC I could think of) -- $20
[Any Campaign Setting] - $40

That equals around $150!!!  So maybe $50 for Traveller isn't too much :)

Peter


*************************************************************************
*            Oh the joys of sharing an account.....                     *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Tom: Liverpool List, and Genealogy, http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/   *
*Peter: New Frontiers Space Battles - www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/   *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
*          For both of us, email is     scouse@inforamp.net             *
*************************************************************************


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 00:03:21 -0400
Subject: Re:  QSDS/SSDS discrepancies and proofreading

William A Humphrey <wh2a+@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> I cannot make any of the laser weapons in the SSDS duplicate a standard
> civilian battery.  Power is the worst: it seems that the batteries from QSDS
> require about 5 to 10 times the power

That sounds like an ROF thing to me.  Remember, weapons that operate at ROF
10 get a -1 to USD factor.  To avoid this, the "standard" civilian weapons
in QSDS run at ROF 50 (no USD modification) and ROF 100 (+1 USD) - with the
consequent increased power drain.

> For example, the basic TL-11 civilian
> battery (listed as containing one weapon) has a USD battery value of
> 1-0-0-0, so will the 72 MJ TL-11 laser.

The QSDS weapon is a TL-11 80MJ laser, similar to (actually, fudged from)
the "standard" Brilliant Lances TL-11 socket laser.  It runs at ROF 50 
to avoid becomeing a 0-0-0-0 weapon.  The weapon has a base power draw of
2.2 MW (at ROF 10), so at ROF 50, draws 11MW.

I assume the SSDS weapon is a more efficiently-designed laser; the SSDS
weapon designs were not available to me when I was putting together QSDS.

> Also, several of the batteries in QSDS refer to multiple weapons,
> whereas there is no mention of mounting multiple weapons in a single
> turret in SSDS.  Are triple turrets allowed or not?

They're _allowed_, but they're not very smart.  The multiple-weapon
batteries in QSDS all have one weapon per turret (the volume and surface
area figures are correct for the number of turrets required), with up to 10
turrets per battery.

> I think we need to have a large outcry to Imperium Games that the
> philosophy behind the QSDS and SSDS (and whatever the revised FF&S will
> be called) was that SSDS is a simplification of FF&S, QSDS is a
> simplification of SSDS.  Every component in each system should be
> exactly reproducible with the next more complex system.

Unfortunately, that's not so.  QSDS and SSDS were developed in parallel from
FF&S, both are simplifications of FF&S, but neither one is based on the
other.  There was enough communication between Dave and I that (I hope) we
got all of the deviations from FF&S in sync.

This means, though, that QSDS is _not_ a proper subset of SSDS.  I
originally wrote it as an alternative to SSDS, because I thought that SSDS
was too complicated.  Don decided that QSDS had enough promise to go into
the main rulebook, and that suddenly tightened the deadline, so that I had
to "finish" many parts of QSDS (such as electronics and weapons) without
benefit of waiting a few days for the corresponding SSDS components to be
done.

> I should be
> able to work out the numbers for structure, armor, life support,
> controls, air locks, artificial gravity, inertial compensation,
> contra-gravity lifters, and fuel scoops with the SSDS and exactly
> replicate (within round-off error in the last decimal place) a hull
> given in the QSDS.  

Yes, you should.  You'll probably have trouble getting weapons and
electronics to agree, however.

> I will, however, gladly wait an extra month (or two)
> for the starships supplement if it's RIGHT when I finally get it.  And
> for those who desire the extra level of detail which causes them to buy
> the starships supplement, some errata on the QSDS might be in order.

I will maintain QSDS errata, and intend to continue to support the system.
However, withg the exception of two known errors (see below), I believe
that QSDS 1.2 can be duplicated by FF&S, and so is "correct".  As is
SSDS - however, different design decisions were made in the two systems, so
thay may not exactly match each other.

Known QSDS Errata:
1) Power Plant fuel consumption is in error.  The listed value is for 6
   months, not twelve.  Install twice the listed fuel to achieve a 1 year
   duration.
2) Power Plant surface area is suprious.  Ignore power plant sufrace area.
   This errror also exists in SSDS.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Shoot Them!  A lot!  --- Don Karnage

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #176
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 28 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 177

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Further QSDS/SSDS Errata
         2. Re: QSDS/SSDS discrepancies and proofreading
         3. QSDS Questions (Td V96#173)
         4. A really great thread!!!
         5. Margret
         6. Bruce's database calculations
         7. Re: Stere
         8. Re: Feudal Tech
         9. Re: FFSlight/ final.doc
        10. Re: QSDS/SSDS discrepancies and proofreading
        11. The Danelaw
        12. Rule of law
        13. Death during Character Generation
        14. Pirates and what the Navy is for..
        15. Re: No Fun
        16. Re: Hopes for T4
        17. Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!
        18. Re: Propsoed Rules for Age Effects

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 00:07:16 -0400
Subject: Further QSDS/SSDS Errata

One additional error has been discovered; this applies to both QSDS and SSDS.
The power plant surface area (for fusion power plants) is spurious.  All
reference to power plant sufrace area for spacecraft should be struck.

This does not affect any existing starship/spacecraft designs.

Guy Garnett, aka
wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                Vis sit tecum! 

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 00:17:17 -0400
Subject: Re: QSDS/SSDS discrepancies and proofreading

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> wrote:
>         I'm not sure what the QSDS difference between civilian and military
> lasers is ... lasers are lasers.

A QSDS "civilian" laser operates with a ROF of 100 or less, and does not
have a MFD included with the battery (and thus, can only have one turret -
and one weapon - per battery).

QSDS "military" weapons include MFDs, and are ROF 100 or higher (ROF 800
when available), and may be installed in batteries of up to 10 turrets.

>         I'm pretty sure about the laser tables, as I was able to reproduce
> the "stock" weapons. As a rough approximation, a 72MJ discharge energy
> translates to 360MJ input energy. Rate of Fire times Input Energy divided by
> 1800 is the power input required for the weapon: 2MJ.

That's for ROF 10, when gets you a -1 to the USD.  If the laser does 20
points of damage (right), then the USD of the weapon would be 0-0-0-0 if
it's installed with ROF 10.  Install it with ROF 50 (10MW) to get 1-0-0-0.

>         Agreed simply because both are based on FF&S, but why would you want
> to?If it's already available in QSDS, there's no need to do it under SSDS.

QSDS and SSDS are _compatible_ with one another, but one is not a subset of
the other.  Both are subsets of FF&S.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Shoot Them!  A lot!  --- Don Karnage

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 00:58:42 -0400
Subject: QSDS Questions (Td V96#173)

t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk asked:
> I seem to recall somewhere that all spaceships had to have a av of 1, to
> withstand micrometeors?  Why do the qdsd or whatever it is have a av of 0?

There are now several different armor scales running around.  The "Armor
Rating" in the USD display (and given in the QSDS tables) is different
(but derived from) the FF&S Armor.

A ship must have _FF&S_ armor equal to it's G-rating times 10 to withstand
micro-meteors.  For 1G ships, this translates to a USD Armor Rating of 0 (2G
and 3G ships get a USD Armor Rating of 10).

USD Armor Ratings are always multiples of 10.  The USD Armor Rating is
calculated by converting the FF&S armor value using the conversion table
supplied with SSDS, and multiplying the result by 10.


Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net> asked:
> 1)  When you choose a hull, you get the stats for tonnes displacement,
> power, cost, volume, etc.  However, when you calculate volume for the USD,
> do you use the 'volume' in the hull table, or do you multiply the td by 14?
> If it's the latter, then what is the point of the volume in the hull table.

The 'volume' on the hull table is the usable volume left inside the hull
(after the space required by armor, life-support, artificial gravity,
airlocks, and contra-grav equiment).  In other words, the volume left that
you can put things into.

All of the things you might want to put into the hull also have a 'volume'
characteristic.  Your design fits into the hull if all of these volumes add
up to less than (or exactly equal to) the 'volume' listed in the hull table.

The USD volume is a separate thing entirely.  It's the Tons of the hull
multiplied by 14.  It's there because of a philosophical difference: QSDS
uses displacement tons as a convenient unit of volume, and generally ignores
cubic meters.  SSDS and FF&S use cubic meters (and generally ignore
displacement tons).  Therefore the USD has to show both; it was a bad choice
to use the word "Volume" in both senses, but I couldn't think of a better
alternative.

> 2)  What does 'len' mean in the BIGHULLS text?

That's the length of the hull, in meters.  I thought you'd like to know.

If you ever want to install a spinal mount, or certain sensors (neither of
which are included in QSDS, but you could design them with FF&S), you'll
need to know the length of the hull.

> 3)  I missed the message announcng the change that QSD 1.2 has, what exactly
> is the difference between 1.1 and 1.2?

I goofed up on the Thrust Plate table.  The power required is far too low; I
gave it as 1Mw per displacement ton, and it should be 1Mw per cubic meter
(which is 14Mw per displacement ton - the error was caused by that DT/m3
thing again).  To "fix" QSDS 1.1, multiply the Thrust Plate power numbers by
14.  Yes, this is a serious error.

There are two known errors in QSDS 1.2 (they will be fixed with v1.3):
1) The power plant fuel was calculated incorrectly; the values given are for
   6 months duration (instead of the stated 1 year).  Install twice the
   listed value if you require a 1 year duration.
2) The power plant surface area requirements are spurious.  Ignore them.

> 4)  Say, for example, I have a 5000 td ship, with a power plant giving off
> 3000 MW.  To get the power rating, is this correct:
> 3000 x 2 = 6000 \ 5000 = 1.2 (The Power Rating is 1.2?)

Yes.  You can also round to the nearest integer (1 would also be correct).
I suggest rounding to the nearest integer for numbers greater than 1, and
keeping the fractions (to one or two decimals) for numbers less than 1.

In general, USD Ratings can be rounded to the nearest integer; you also
don't have to include the leading zeros ("1" is fine, you don't need to list
"01"), or unused batteries (don't bother to list "00 Battery 0-0-0-0".

Finally, the number before the battery is the number of such batteries
installed on the ship, and _NOT_ the number of weapons in the battery.
Therefore, "2 Long-Range Laser 4-2-1-1" indicates that the ship has 2
independent long-range laser batteries, each of which has USD 4-2-1-1.
Similarly, a ship with 6 missile barbettes could have "1 Missile 30 (6)",
indicating that the barbettes are grouped into a single battery with 30
ready missiles, 6 of which can be controlled in-flight at once.  This gives
a larger swarm of missiles, which may survive defensive fire better.  The same
barbettes could be arranged as "2 Missile 15 (3)" - two batteries, each of
which have 15 missiles (and each battery can control 3 missiles in flight at
once).  This gives additional flexability.

A battery, no matter how many weapons are in it, is treated as a single
entity: it's controlled by one person, fires at one target, and and gets a
single "to-hit" roll.  In QSDS, batteries are generally designated when the
ship is built (or weapons are installed).  As an optional rule, ships that
have bridges installed may re-arrange their battery configuration at any
point, even in battle.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:07:12 -0500
Subject: A really great thread!!!

>"this is the thread that never ends,
>it just goes on and on my frinds,
>some people started flaming it not knowing what it was
>and they'll continue flaming it forever just because..
>
"this is the thread that never ends,
it just goes on and on my frinds,
some people started flaming it not knowing what it was
and they'll continue flaming it forever just because..

<next>



Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:07:19 -0500
Subject: Margret

>From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 13:22:27 -0700
>Subject: Re: No Fun
>
>Tom Ellis wrote:
>
>> > We must have run out of Threads That Wouldn't Die. :)
>> 

*ding* *ding*

Round two!!


>Here's a topic for speculation.  What was Margret doing pushing back into 
>the Glimmer Drift like that?
>
>Was she:
>
>1) Pulling out.
>2) Searching for new markets.
>3) Trying to establish a secondary base she could fall back to.
>or
>4) Just looking for a really good hotdog at a reasonable price.
                                   ^^^^^^

Shouldn't this be corndogs from the Hiver?

Really, though, this is a bit off topic, but I think its worth it.  I read
an article the other day, the city of New York has doubled the privelage
license fee on the guy that runs the Hot Dog Cart at the corner in front of
the Metropolitan Museum.  He now pays $288,000.00 IIRC (It was at least 200
thousand).  Talk about an expensive Hot Dog!!!!

About Margret.  I didn't get any MT material except the original boxed set
and the Referee's companion, and most of my Rebellion knowledge comes from
Survival Margin.  I was pulling for Margret to win when I first got the MT
boxed set, and then when I got Arrival Vengence (oh, yeah, I forgot I had
that), I realized that she was not going to win and she was portrayed as
something of a whimpy loner.  My guess was that she was trying to enlargen
(is that a word) her domain without stepping on anyone's feet.

Then there was virus and I think Virus was really...

Just kidding, put your guns away, I didn't bring my ballistic weave cloth vest!


Paul  {tiger}


PS - I think Derek has a crush on Margret!!


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:07:15 -0500
Subject: Bruce's database calculations

>From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
>Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 16:00:05 MST7
>Subject: Population of the Imperium, and the taxes they pay (LONG)
>
>Joe Walsh's comments about taxation, and David Broussard's analysis
>of the size and cost of the Imperial Navy got me to pondering...(are
>you ponering what I'm pondering, Pinky?? I don't know Brain...just
>how DO you get an Aslan to play the Cowardly Lion???)
<<<***snicker***>>>

...Lots of Cool Database Info & Calculations Deleted...

>	In a later post I'll break down the populations of the major 
>factions, (if someone can tell me what all the %#@$# allegiance codes 
>are?)

Um... you got paid while you were doing this?

And you got to use a really big computer?

Um... Is your employer hiring anyone to do this full time?  ;)


(*Raising hand and waving vigorously*)

OOOOOH!!  OOOOOOH!! ME!!!  OOOOOHHHH!  ;)


Really, though, I'm looking forward to your next posting on this.  I thought
this was very interesting.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:07:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Stere

>From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
>
>On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> On 06/26/96 at 09:29 PM,  Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> said:
>>
>> >Eris Reddoch wrote:
>>
>> >> I'd never heard of Stere before, looked it up, Stere = 1 cubic meter
>> >> sure enough.
>>
>> >I've heard a Stere before.  MOOOOOOOOO!!!!  8)
>>
>> Come on Stanley, where's the beef?
>
>You're stereing us off topic.

You guys need to MOOOOve this to private!  That's not what its Heifer(here for).

>
>> >Sorry Couldn't resist.
>>
>> Me neither. ;->
>
>Ditto.
>
Sorry, too.

(COWardly runs for cover and COWers in a corner.)

Paul {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:07:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Feudal Tech

>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
>Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:11:11 -0600
>Subject: Re: No Fun
>
>At 02:12 pm 6/27/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
>>
>>> This is no fun, I'm actually having to do work cause I'm running out of mail
>>> to read!!!  :)
>>
>>We must have run out of Threads That Wouldn't Die. :)
>
>        OK, to keep the messages flowing ... can anybody explain to me what
>the heck a "Feudal Technocracy" is and what its effects are on a game?
>
>        (Ducks, runs for cover).

Right, like you're really gonna sucker anyone into this one?  Didn't you get
enough pain while doing SSDS, or do we need to hurt you some more?  ;)


Paul  {tiger}

PS - rock dropping, engineers and Virus.   Sorry, but I missed them in the
last Digest and thought they should be given at least an honorable mention
for being such sporting topics over the past few mileau.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:11:50 -0600
Subject: Re: FFSlight/ final.doc

At 10:08 pm 6/27/96 EDT, you wrote:
>	I tried to download the doc at the homepage, but the server says that the
>document is not 
>there. I tried to go about the homepage and the document itself isn't there
>also.
>	Whats up?
>	Gremlins?
>	Please let me know what I did wrong. Or when I can download.
>	
>	Thanks, Dave.

        Final.doc is gone. The new version is ShipsW6.doc or Ships.rtf.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:12:00 -0600
Subject: Re: QSDS/SSDS discrepancies and proofreading

At 12:17 am 6/28/96 -0400, Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> wrote:
>"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> wrote:
>>         I'm not sure what the QSDS difference between civilian and military
>> lasers is ... lasers are lasers.
>
>A QSDS "civilian" laser operates with a ROF of 100 or less, and does not
>have a MFD included with the battery (and thus, can only have one turret -
>and one weapon - per battery).
>
>QSDS "military" weapons include MFDs, and are ROF 100 or higher (ROF 800
>when available), and may be installed in batteries of up to 10 turrets.

        Aha! Then all the laser turrets in SSDS are "civilian" weapons until
you install the MFD to create a battery.
        
>>         I'm pretty sure about the laser tables, as I was able to reproduce
>> the "stock" weapons. As a rough approximation, a 72MJ discharge energy
>> translates to 360MJ input energy. Rate of Fire times Input Energy divided by
>> 1800 is the power input required for the weapon: 2MJ.
>
>That's for ROF 10, when gets you a -1 to the USD.  If the laser does 20
>points of damage (right), then the USD of the weapon would be 0-0-0-0 if
>it's installed with ROF 10.  Install it with ROF 50 (10MW) to get 1-0-0-0.

        DOH! Oh well, all the weapons in SSDS are ROF10 *but* with the
caveat that you can increase the power to increase the ROF ... up to ROF100
there's no impact to volume or anything else.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:15:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Danelaw

>>ps. as I understand it, a lot of English common law dates back to
>>*Norse* influences. 
>
>        Could be.  The common law as such has its roots in the justice
>dispensed by William the Conqueror's magistrates; given that numbers of
>Norse settled in the British Isles, I imagine that their legal influence was
>felt to some degree...  Glenn could probably answer this better than I can.

The part of England conquered by the Vikings was called the Danelaw because
Danish law was in force there (ca. 700 A.D., I guess).  William the
Conqueror (1066) led a later Viking invasion of England -- it's just that
his Vikings had lived in Normandy for a few generations (the French having
given it or lost it to them).

This sort of layering also occurred throughout Traveller history.  The Rule
of Man imposed 25th Century Terran law on the Vilani system, etc.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:15:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Rule of law

If you can stand a few more comments about legal matters, you can read
these.  If not, well, here they are anyway.

In our discussions about legal systems we mostly talked about legal systems,
not legal cultures.  PCs of course deal with the culture directly.  For
example, in the United States and Western Europe, as well as in many other
places, people basically believe in the law.  That is, for example, if the
law says that the government must do X when someone presents it with
enumerated facts, the people expect that the government will either do X or
give a real explanation why not.  

In the former Soviet Union, as well as many other places, the rule is the
opposite.  Although the law may be very plain, government leaders do what
they want.  Thus in Belarus, the constitution provided that parliament would
serve for five years, and then there would be an election.  If a quorum of
voters didn't vote, parliament would continue to serve until a new election.
After five years, an election was held, and a quorum didn't vote.  The
president then declared that the parliament was sitting illegally (because
five years had elapsed), and directed executive agencies not to cooperate
with it.  This has led to an ongoing constitutional crisis, with large-scale
rioting and demonstrations.  

So in places like that, PCs would have to rely on blat or guanxi to get
things done.  Your cargo has been impounded, even though you had a permit to
bring it in? Maybe you should become friendly with A, whose uncle knows
someone in customs to whom someone in impound owes a favor.  Yes, take A out
to dinner.  Bring a suitable companion.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:15:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Death during Character Generation

>From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>

>I have found over 17+ years of Traveller that the average age in my
>campaigns is somewhere in the 30's.

Me, too -- assuming that you mean character ages.  Players and referees have
varied in age from 17 to 40 (not with my own aging, either -- in the
campaign in which I sometimes play, the age range is 23 to 43; in the
campaign that I referee, my recurring player and I are both in our mid-30s).  

Moreover, I've found that in real life the 30s are the age when energy and
ability are optimized -- people have had time to acquire the skills,
background, experience, and seasoning to take on challenges, the energy to
accept them, and the stamina to see them through.  In other words, it's the
perfect time to go adventuring.  

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:15:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Pirates and what the Navy is for..

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

>Picture this:  A backwater system has been troubled by a pirate.  He's

>The local Baron petitions the Duke for help.  The Duke sends the 4873CruRon

>This is good from three points:

4:  The players get a good adventure!

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 06:34:38 GMT
Subject: Re: No Fun

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:11:11 -0600, David J. Golden wrote:

>         OK, to keep the messages flowing ... can anybody explain to me what
> the heck a "Feudal Technocracy" is and what its effects are on a game?

Knights with joisting SGIs & cellular phones.
 
>         (Ducks, runs for cover).

Damn!  Thought I hit 'em last time.  <Four...!>

James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia

    If it ain't Scottish... its Krrraaaap!

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 06:34:37 GMT
Subject: Re: Hopes for T4

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:41:14 -0400 (EDT), Tom Miller wrote:

> >It wouldn't even have to be IG... just someone with some time and IG's
> >permission.  But I *definitely* like the idea of having certain forms available
> >on line, since "permission to photocopy" such forms would mean that there would
> >be little money to be lost in such an endevor (except for what IG would want to
> >charge for the original forms).
> 
> How could they charge for the original form is it's online?  Am I
> misunderstanding you here?

Think about it... without the internet, somebody would have to create & print
the forms and include them inside the rulebook.  The cost of this would be
included in the price of the rulebook (however miniscule).  IG would then allow
you to make "copies" (for personal use only) at your own expense without any
threat regarding copyright infringement.

By creating a bunch of forms and making them available *only* on-line, IG could
never compensate for their time in creating these forms unless they charge
slightly more for their other products (or write it off as advertising  8-)

If the basic rulebook comes with a set of forms, *and* these forms are also
available on-line, then everything is fine (you paid for the original forms by
buying the main rulebook).  If not, IG will have to create a book of forms and
charge accordingly.

"Youze don't git anythin' fo free!"  8-(

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 06:34:35 GMT
Subject: Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 18:01:31 -0700 (PDT), Charles Pratt wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, James Lindsay wrote:
> 
> > ...Add text to limit the number of Spinal Mounts that can be installed.
> 
> Wouldn't a ship with any more than one spinal mount be considered to have
> parallel mounts...?
> 
> > ...Maybe explain why you'd want to use TL9-11 Fusion plants when TL8 Fission
> > plants are cheaper & smaller (ie: what are the game effects to using fission).
> 
> A flying Hanford (you know, the site in SW Washington that is leaking all
> sorts of grotesque things into the Columbia...)

I know that *we* all know the answers to these questions (like # of spinal
mounts), but newbies to Traveller might not.  Anyways, *rules* (a few sentences
at most) for fission disasters might be a good idea.

------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:11:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Propsoed Rules for Age Effects

Good job Joe-

I like this system quite a bit.  This seems to give just the right aging 
rate/TL

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #177
**********************************

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Traveller-digest            Friday, 28 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 178

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Size of Imperial Navy
         2. MMT Adventure Questions.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:21:06 +0000
Subject: Re: Size of Imperial Navy

David Broussard writes:

> That means the average Imperial citizen pays (let me check my 
> number of zeros, here) 77,296 Cr annually for the munificent 
> protection of the Imperial Navy.

Given a yearly budget of 3e14 Cr (300,000,000 MCr) and population of 
3e13 (28,000,000,000,000), the cost per Imperial subject is going 
to be 3e14/3e13, or 10 Cr.  I'd multiply that by 10 to get a 
reasonable ball-park figure to account for all the support functions 
required.  This gives a figure consistent (on the same order of 
magnitude) with Striker and TCS for naval budgets.

Dry reading, I'm sure. :)



- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@mindlink.net

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 03:15:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: MMT Adventure Questions.

Hi all.  So I'm thinking up this great adventure idea for MMT, and I have 
a few questions I thought y'all could help me with:

1. At what TL does central nervous system regeneration become possible?
(e.g., repairing spinal cord or brain damage).

2. What's the densest substance one is reasonably likely to find in large 
natural deposits (uranium?)?

3. How intelligible would writing from before the Long Night be to the 
Syleans? (i.e., is it like Shakespearean english, or like Gaelic, or what?)

4. What is Helium 2, exactly, and does it pose any sort of threat when 
encountered?

Hah!  Now that should get you all wondering! :-)

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest            Friday, 28 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 179

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. QSDS/SSDS/FF&S errata (IG PLEASE READ!)
         2. Worldbuilding resources
         3. Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!
         4. Re: No Fun
         5. Re: Virus... Just Say No! ;-)
         6. QSDS Software for Mac/PC
         7. Re: Mileu 1200...Virus plotting ideas...
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #174
         9. Imperial citizens and taxes
        10. SSDS format
        11. Re: Margret
        12. FF&S Light
        13. Re: Population of the Imperium (Td V96#174)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@odyssee.net>
Date: 28 Jun 96 08:42:42 -0500
Subject: QSDS/SSDS/FF&S errata (IG PLEASE READ!)

I agree with a previous poster, in that in my view it is _extremely_
important that the design sequences be one-hundred percent compatible _AND_
that the errata be kept to an absolute MINIMUM.  

I would cheerfully wait another month or more for products that are, above
all, error-free.  These reams of errata really hurt a product.

my CR.02,
Ross Coburn
ross@odyssee.net

------------------------------

From: Matthew Harelick <matth@interactive.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:57:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Worldbuilding resources

Hi Rob: 

Where does one find Writers Digest? 

> 
> From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
> Date: 27 Jun 1996 16:34:17 GMT
> Subject: Worldbuilding Resource
> 
> Here's a couple of non-Traveller resources for Traveller referees:
> 
> Worldbuilding: A writer's guide to contructing star systems and
> life-supporting planets
> Dr. Stephen L. Gillett
> Writers Digest
> 
> Aliens and Alien Societies: A writer's guide to creating extraterrestrila
> life-forms
> Stanley Schmidt
> Writers Digest
> 

Matthew Harelick 

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 07:04:50 -0700
Subject: Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!

Charles Pratt wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, James Lindsay wrote:
> 
>>...Add text to limit the number of Spinal Mounts that can be installed.
> 
>Wouldn't a ship with any more than one spinal mount be considered to 
>have parallel mounts...?
> It could also have a Janus (sp?) mount.  One Spinal mount facing forward 
taking up 1/2 of the ships length and the other facing aft also talking 
up 1/2 of the ships length.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 07:28:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: No Fun

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, James Lindsay wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:11:11 -0600, David J. Golden wrote:
>
> >         OK, to keep the messages flowing ... can anybody explain to me what
> > the heck a "Feudal Technocracy" is and what its effects are on a game?
>
> Knights with joisting SGIs & cellular phones.

Watch "Dune".

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
   "And on the eighth day, the Army Corps of Engineers changed everything."


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:08:34 -0800
Subject: Re: Virus... Just Say No! ;-)

On 27 Jun 96 at 8:23, Derek Stanley spewed:

> >Reformed Vilani Empire...
> 
> This would be the one that's destroyed in the Collapse.  I though it was 
> in refference to a published pocket empire for TNE.  Now I re-read it I 
> see that I was mistaken.

You got it... ;-)

Stu 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 28 Jun 1996 11:01:57 GMT
Subject: QSDS Software for Mac/PC

I'm working on this, with a student working on the PC version.

Any thoughts on user interface (ie. menus, menu items, dialogs, etc.)? 
Seeing as you're the recognized QSDS expert...


Our goal is to produce software that looks identical on both Mac and
PC/Windows (and maybe OS/2), and is upwardly compatible with future products
(ie. the FF&S software we all dream of).

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:17:57 -0700
Subject: Re: Mileu 1200...Virus plotting ideas...

Charles Pratt wrote:

>>This is an extreme possiblity.  Inspite of the fact that the 
>>transponder was supposed to kill chip if the box was ever tampered with 
>>perhaps the Hivers' figured it out.
> 
> That's the problem with those systems---given enough time, they can be
> figured out.

	I've been re-reading Survival Margin and the Virus section at the 
back.  Most interesting.  I've come to the conclusion that the Hiver tour 
of Diaspora and Masilla (sp) was a huge intelligence gathering 
expedition.  Though that much is pretty obvious to anyone reading the 
articles.  I think that the Hiver's realized that one way or another the 
Imperium was going to be destroyed and would one day have to be rebuilt. 
 By touring the area before the collapse they could find promising locals 
for future recovery and create an accurate list of where the most 
promising technological resources could be found for future reference.  

	It seems unlikely that the Hiver's could have visited Cymbline 
first hand, as it was held by the Solomani at the time however it is 
quite likely that having taken one or two transponders apart the could 
have figured out a way to do it with out destroying the Deyo chips.  Once 
they had the chips it is entierly possible, everyone knew Lucan was mad 
about superweapons, have realized the potential that these lifeforms 
possessed.  By figuring this out the Hivers, wizards on computers that 
they are, could have begun developing their own counter-measures before 
the Virus was released.  Evidently the HIver's own inate computer 
abilities were not enough to make up for the twenty years of lead time 
the humans had developing this system as the Hiver's themselves were 
desimated when Virus rolled through.

	Having re-read the Virus section I can see that there was a fair 
amount of thought involved in this idea, though many of the ideas are 
unclear, the thought that was involved in the ideas is evident.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:20:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #174

> Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
> From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
> Subject: Population of the Imperium, and the taxes they pay (LONG)
> 
> What is the population base we're talking about here?  Where did the
> grand '11,000 Worlds of the Imperium' number come from?
> 
> So I applied a massive overkill of technology (Sybase Sys 10 on a HP
> workstation, using expensive client-server applications...but hey,
> at least this way I can say I WAS working...ummmm Yeah! "I'm testing
> the integrity of our network"; that's it!) and put all of the fabled
> 'Genie sector data' into a database. Now we can play with the
> nnumbers in some useful sort of way.

Cool. I've always wanted to do that. :)

> CAVEAT: As has been mentioned here, and elsewhere much of the Genie
> data is probably non-canon, and moreover, seems to have been created
> with 'a computer with it's needle stuck' (Dave Nillson, in the last
> Challenge, regarding collapsing systems...this was a sidebar,
> actually). Furthermore, some of the data is incomplete. For
> instance, the much of the Vland sector is missing the population
> multiplier; I substituted a default of 1, so some population
> estimates could be as much as 90% off  in a worst case scenario.
> Also, I don't know when the Allegiance code corresponds to
> (Pre-Rebellion, Rebellion, other?) I made the assumption here that
> it was just Pre-Rebellion. Finally, these data don't specify the
> number of inhabited worlds in the system, so I'm assuming one
> world/system, and all the population lives there. From a
> fine-grained standpoint this is a horrible idea, but for what I'm
> doing I think it's perfectly fine.

I hope that we'll eventually be able to get star maps that are
accurate, and planet physical stuff. Pop numbers change over time,
but accurate starmaps would be cool.
 
> That means the average Imperial citizen pays (let me check my number
> of zeros, here) 77,296 Cr annually for the munificent protection of
> the Imperial Navy. 

This doesn't take into account other sources of government income, right?
Like starport taxes, coporate taxes, interest earned from money that 
that the Imperium has loaned out, etc. I doubt that most imperial citizens
would be expected to cough up this much money each year. (Heck, even Canada
wouldn't tax its citizens that much! :)


> 	It's quite possible that one or more of us is off by a significant 
> number of decimal places.  I'll have to recheck my figures and see; 

Possibly. I haven't the time to check them now though, sorry.

Anyways, the Imperium probably has lots of sources of income,
direct income tax probably being the least among them. ANy ideas what
they would be, anyone?

Ethan

------------------------------

From: Matthew Harelick <matth@interactive.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:25:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Imperial citizens and taxes

Hi: 

What precisely defines an imperial citizen? 

>From what I remember about the description of the rebellion, Dulinor 
wanted the Imperium to rule the worlds and not the space in between 
them. This tells me that just because a world claims allegiance towards
the Imperium does not mean that all the citizens of that world are the
citizens of the Imperium. 

Matthew


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:31:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: SSDS format

Well, it looks like I won't be using SSDS anytime soon.  The RTF file, 
when imported to WP 6.0a, has lots of pages that have text only down the 
left-hand side, about 10 characters wide...makes for a lengthy document! :(

When I tried to import the Word 6.0 version into WordPerfect 6.1 (which 
we have at work), WP gagged on it, even though I was able to import the 
Word 6.0 version of QSDS using the same program.  Sigh.

Has anyone else had better luck getting SSDS into any version of WordPerfect?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:30:57 -0700
Subject: Re: Margret

Paul Walker wrote:

>About Margret.I didn't get any MT material except the original boxed set
>and the Referee's companion,and most of my Rebellion knowledge comes 
>from Survival Margin.  I was pulling for Margret to win when I first got 
>the MT boxed set, and then when I got Arrival Vengence (oh, yeah, I 
>forgot I had that), I realized that she was not going to win and she was 
>portrayed as something of a whimpy loner.  My guess was that she was 
>trying to enlargen (is that a word) her domain without stepping on 
>anyone's feet.

Actually having re-read Survival Margin, I can see another reason for her 
going back there, actually 100 trillion reasons to be precise.  With the 
Solomani pounding at her door through the collapsed front of the Old 
Expanses, remember the OE's surrendered to the Sol's having given all 
their fleets to Lucan, Margret needed another way to keep the trade lines 
open with the Hivers.  By expanding behind the rift Margret was able to 
do an end round run past the Solomani and straight down into Hiver space. 

What does this mean for the New Era?

It means that the area behind the Rift would have been a major staging 
area for all kinds of high-tech mercantile trade, now none of the worlds 
in that area are particularly survivable.  Lots of jump 1 routes and poor 
atmospheres.  Given that this area was somewhat off the beaten track, 
hell lets face it, the Glimerdrift Reaches embody the word Frontier, it 
is unlikely that this area would have seen the scale of devestation that 
the rest of the Imperium suffered.  Thus, there is probably a ton of 
relic materials just waiting to be recovered.
 
> Then there was virus and I think Virus was really...

> PS - I think Derek has a crush on Margret!!

Actually when you read Rebellion, this is before things get really weird, 
Margret is probably one of the most likable candidates for Player 
Characters to follow.  Sure Craig, Brzk, and The Brothers Varien also fit 
into this catagory, but at the time I was playing a character who was a 
member of the Verminie so my loyalties are kind of swayed in that 
direction.  Plus when you play an RC campaign her strong hold is the one 
thats closest to the Coalition.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: "Daniel A. Taylor" <danielt@dgii.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:33:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: FF&S Light

Could someone please convert the FF&S Light doc to
a portable format so that those of us without Word6
can check it over?

TIA,

Daniel Taylor   


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 11:39:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Population of the Imperium (Td V96#174)

"Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
> So I applied a massive overkill of technology (Sybase Sys 10 on a HP
> workstation, using expensive client-server applications) and put all
> of the fabled 'Genie sector data' into a database.

I did something similar a number of years ago, except I used SAS and a
spare IBM mainframe.  What's very interesting is that I got different
numbers than you did ...

> Sectors included: 32
> Ley, Core, Deneb, Spica, Verge, Vland, Daibei, Delphi, Lishun,
> Magyar, Antares, Fornast, Hlakhoi, Corridor, Diaspora, Iwahfuah,
> Gushemege, Massillia, Ealiyasiyw, Dagudashaag, Dark Nebula, Reft
> Sector, Staihaia Yo, Alpha Crucis, Hinterworlds, Solomani Rim,  Old
> Expanses, Empty Quarter, Trojan Reaches, Riftspan Reaches, Spinward
> Marches, and Glimmerdrift Reaches

I had 35 sectors, from the GEnie database.  The data was from Early- or
Pre-rebellion sources, and so was closest to the Imperium at its height.
Here's the sectors, and the number of worlds in each:

World Distribution by Sector
SECTOR        NUMBER   PERCENT
- ------------------------------
AlphaCru        486      3.3
Antares         553      3.7
Core            545      3.7
Corridor        267      1.8
Dagudash        560      3.8
Daibei          453      3.1
DarkNebu        487      3.3
Delphi          346      2.3
Deneb           386      2.6
Diaspora        473      3.2
Ealiyasi        400      2.7
EmptyQ          311      2.1
Fornast         517      3.5
Glimmerd        350      2.4
Gushemeg        533      3.6
Hinter          435      2.9
Hlakhoi         393      2.7
Ilelish         451      3.1
Iwahfuah        411      2.8
Ley             387      2.6
Lishun          601      4.1
Magyar          516      3.5
Massilia        519      3.5
OldExpan        426      2.9
ReaversD        366      2.5
Reft            123      0.8
Riftspan        108      0.7
Solomani        400      2.7
Spica           451      3.1
Spinward        439      3.0
Staihaia        472      3.2
TrojanRe        327      2.2
Verge           234      1.6
Vland           532      3.6
Zarushag        496      3.4

> Total number of Worlds: 13,410

I get a total of 14,754 worlds (not all of these are Imperial).

> Total number of Worlds, by Allegiance
> 	Allegiance	Number of Systems 
> 	 Im	7026	 
> 	 As	1896 	
> 	 Na	1293
>  	 So	1058 	
> 	Dd	326
>  	 Ma	261
>  	 Li	258
>  	 Cs	177
>  	 Hv	177 
> 	 Va	113
>  	 Jr	80
> 
> 	 	These are the major ones, there are a number of other codes
> present in the data that I don't recognize.  Hell, I don't recognize
> all of these! (Someone help please?)

Sure!

It looks like you're using the same raw data I was; the allegiances are
coded for the Rebellion.  In particular, "Dd" is the Domain of Deneb, "Ma"
is Margaret's Faction, "Li" is Lucan's Imperium - all of which should
properly be part of the "Classic" Third Imperium.  Here's my breakdown:

Distribution of Factions
FACTION FREQUENCY   PERCENT
- ---------------------------
As          2020     13.7
Cs           166      1.1
Dd           651      4.4
Fi           490      3.3
Hv           177      1.2
Im          5354     36.3
Li          1093      7.4
Ma           298      2.0
Na          1388      9.4
Ot          1435      9.7
Rv           443      3.0
So          1069      7.2
St           148      1.0
Zh            22      0.1

Code:
As = Aslan; Cs = Client State; Dd = Domain of Deneb; Fi = Federation of
Ilelish; Hv = Hiver; Im = Imperial (unaligned or faction unknown);
Li = Lucan's Imperium; Ma = Margaret's Faction; Na = Non-Aligned (non
Imperial); Ot = Other (includes all Vargr Polities); Rv = Restored Vilani
Empire; So = Solomani; St = Strephon's Imperium; Zh = Zhodani

I then combinedthese codes to attempt to produce a reasonable pre-rebellion
Imperium.  Here's what I came up with:

Pre-Rebellion Political Entities
POLITY   FREQUENCY   PERCENT
- ----------------------------
H             177      1.2
I           10497     71.1
N            1388      9.4
O            1601     10.9
S            1069      7.2
Z              22      0.1

H = Hiver; I = Imperial; N = Non-Aligned (non Imperial);
O = Other; S = Solomani; Z = Zhodani

> It's clear, though, that the Imperium consists of slightly fewer
> than 11,000 worlds, by  about 36%!

Within some areas of the Imperium, alignment codes where used to indicate
ethinc regions and internal semi-autonomous districts.  This also reduced
the count of "Imperial" worlds.

> Using the numbers here, the total population of the Imperium is as
> follows:  Total Population 28,051,512,234,733
> Number of Worlds	UWP Pop figure
> 536	10
> 323	9
> 470	8
> 606	7
> 621	6
> 732	5
> 711	4
> 596	3
> 506	2
> 403	1
> 1520	0

Here's my figures:
POPEX   FREQUENCY   PERCENT
- ---------------------------
              33      0.2
0            445      3.0
1            751      5.1
2           1177      8.0
3           1474     10.0
4           2137     14.5
5           2249     15.2
6           2028     13.7
7           1666     11.3
8           1495     10.1
9            939      6.4
A            360      2.4

"POPEX" is the SAS variable name I chose for "Population Exponent" (in other
words, UPP population code).  The blank are 33 worlds for which UPP data was
missing or invalid.  Oddly enough, I have significantly fewer POP-A worlds
than you do, and also fewer population 0 worlds.

When I originally fetched data for my analysis, there were two sets of
files.  One was an extensive and fairly complete set of "early rebellion"
files (which is what I based my analysis on, because I was interested in the
pre-rebellion Imperium).  The other was a much later (and much less
complete) set of later rebellion files (perhaps adjusted - or partly
adjusted - for Hard Times).  Did you use this latter set of data?
If so, I doubt that it reflects the Third Imperium.

I also did some breakdowns by sector and polity of the total population,
total Gross Planetary Product, and estimated tax revenues.  Here's the data:

Sector  Number  PopulationK    GPP-LMCr     Tax-MCr
- ---------------------------------------------------
AlphaCru   486  1021307948  22879674748   167684616
Antares    553   661250083  10383843250    58911465
Core       545   743850576  16992427877   130330737
Corridor   267   267304301   3828214926    25703382
Dagudash   560   839332216  16987143149   131885570
Daibei     453  1008292340  21341417927   151036533
DarkNebu   487   635816272   5882258364    28013721
Delphi     346   585112171   7945604790    39449041
Deneb      386   628549145  11848395657    66508165
Diaspora   473   458014942   8123337764    51882974
Ealiyasi   400   555687307  10338275615    69075677
EmptyQ     311   252354900   2310113101     7502564
Fornast    517   502146085  10441532278    67808891
Glimmerd   350   729271555  10836740366    60209223
Gushemeg   533   543900688   9426273901    67602201
Hinter     435   352263798   5034877405    23875377
Hlakhoi    393   519502525   8073331320    38827646
Ilelish    451   953180936  21665801766   171251650
Iwahfuah   411   341174085   5564840177    27838096
Ley        387   593430885   7973360158    49062914
Lishun     601   856767050  17979182790   129838475
Magyar     516   545431324   9299408662    50726316
Massilia   519  1028922716  21973638063   174656173
OldExpan   426  1501846765  27940062653   210674879
ReaversD   366   666034479   9643721982    57576312
Reft       123   153285010   2547384925    15878937
Riftspan   108   251235776   5334119122    38738350
Solomani   400  1694555089  33426886232   272073579
Spica      451   403666465   6101674500    35695206
Spinward   439   436803660   6224379801    33251777
Staihaia   472   348598338   5987084882    36449008
TrojanRe   327   544441030   8846448351    58032679
Verge      234   246953079   5162271741    32510631
Vland      532  1018973320  18178477927   117754510
Zarushag   496   334669561   5037467301    26279001
- ---------------------------------------------------
ALL      14754 22223926420 401559673471  2724596278

This is overall (all polities).  Population is in thousands (so that's a
total of 22,223,926,420,000 sophonts).  GPP is in _local_ credits (not
converted to the TL-15, Starport-A "Imperial" credit).  The TaxMCr _is_
in "Imperial" standard credits; that's the amount of tax paid to the 
interstellar government.

Here's the breakdown by Polity.  "I" is the Imperium.

Polity Number  PopulationK    GPP-LMCr   Army-LMCr   Navy-LMCr    Tax-MCr
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
H         177   194828490   3443011755    20049438    52253777    22238957
I       10497 16731817153 317425396400  2236702704  4429229399  2194749587
N        1388  1703549781  19264207248   141668967   262879329   109535364
O        1601  1971765543  30705501643   219838421   424977020   182035162
S        1069  1597654682  30450701865   176720305   462744319   215035232
Z          22    24310772    270854559     2274241     3413703     1001976

The "Army-LMCr" and "Navy-LMCr" are the funds available (in local credits)
for locally-raised army and system-defense units.  These units would
ordinarily be under the control of the worlds that raised them, and are IN
ADDITION to the Imperial (or other empire) military.  The Tax-MCr column
gives the funds available to the Imperium for it's own Navy, Marine, Scout,
and Imperial Army forces.  These are in Imperial (TL-15, starport-A)
credits.

> So now, David's  numbers of 5,625,000,000 MCr in ships, and
> 160,000-4,400,000 MCr per Month on Salaries can be put into real
> taxation terms.

It looks like these are easily supported under the Imperial budgets, and
local defense and anti-piracy forces can easily be supported in addition.

> Navy for capital ships and crew alone as 308,610,000 MCr / year. 
> That means the average Imperial citizen pays (let me check my number
> of zeros, here) 77,296 Cr annually for the munificent protection of
> the Imperial Navy. 

By my figures, it's about 14% of the Imperial tax revenues; about 18.45
Credits a person a year.

> 	It's quite possible that one or more of us is off by a significant 
> number of decimal places.  I'll have to recheck my figures and see; 
> but I am pretty confident of those population figures.

I think your source data is suspect, and the allegiance coding is making
your Imperium be far too small.  

Here's one more thing that should prove useful for defense analists.  It's a
breakdown of the Imperium by TL and starport type, showing number of worlds
of that type, total population and GPP (local credits) as well as local
defense and Imperial taxes (Imperial taxes are in Imperial credits).

Polity Imperium
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
TL Port Number Population    GPP-LMCr   Army-LMCr   Navy-LMCr    Tax-MCr
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
0  A        1           0           0           0           0           0
   B        4           0           0           0           0           0
   C        2           0           0           0           0           0
   E        3           0           0           0           0           0
   X       15       60702           0           0           0           0
1  C        1      800000           0           0           0           0
   D        2      580000           0           0           0           0
   E        5      166000           0           0           0           0
   X       23     1857464           0           0           0           0
2  B        1           0           0           0           0           0
   C        1        3000           0           0           0           0
   D        6      209805           0           0           0           0
   E       15     2365432           0           0           0           0
   X       16     2960300           0           0           0           0
3  C        7      142080           0           0           0           0
   D       22     3716592           0           0           0           0
   E       28     7540632           0           0           0           0
   X       16     2493013           0           0           0           0
4  B        3      108000           0           0           0           0
   C       19     4682167           0           0           0           0
   D       71     7501678           0           0           0           0
   E       55     6018435           0           0           0           0
   X       24     8272044           0           0           0           0
5  B        8     1069002     2297282       19297       28946         827
   C       58    14746169    34763899      191143      538899        9386
   D       83    12102544    24357733      192085      319427        4384
   E      123     7741626    15156566      126369      191919        1364
   X       28     1597671     2687462       15720       40716         242
6  A        2       82000      622080        5225        7838         560
   B       43     4827035    19892457      166987      250755       14323
   C      151    31470953   128320219      849911     1844814       57744
   D      114    35941280   151067660     1236976     1935444       54384
   E      147    27232902   126315749      928440     1724191       34105
   X       24   144108221   589499102     4822014     7557466      159165
7  A        4     3174000    26683184      224139      336208       48030
   B       89     9668207    71867327      603684      905531       97021
   C      274   131843203   775730564     6451911     9838428      698157
   D      152    91505940   722267294     6047523     9120093      520033
   E      202    78754157   483254993     3477097     6671257      217465
   X       30    16282454    90392833      756843     1141406       40677
8  A       23    14259234   115054654      966386     1449762      310647
   B      196    39299126   364650465     3055235     4602425      820463
   C      362   168470119  1393102891    11305547    17949610     2507584
   D      173    69367345   558124363     4626652     7093959      753468
   E      204   162622966  1229888670     9751904    16075756     1106900
   X       22    19282091   181366308     1479139     2329552      163230
9  A       56    10663195   127321316     1064747     1609001      458357
   B      308    98921450  1025648301     8122653    13415958     3230792
   C      435   288247359  2981562823    24104147    38508677     8050217
   D      180   254035437  2401722624    19384549    31051627     5403874
   E      160   292940797  2956480838    21754027    40332066     5321663
   X       17    12931221   124502536      406072     2208480      224105
A  A      135    26881005   369727939     3063882     4700401     1663776
   B      427   123748030  1634469884    12642791    21681068     6619602
   C      457   306969612  4385055982    36178481    55907703    15786200
   D      139   311794632  3716567214    22422694    55625206    11707185
   E      139   290309668  3736179850    30963146    47496615    10087683
   X        7     8514700   113668400      187088     2199948      306905
B  A      158    83582396  1187343086     9848407    15085794     6411650
   B      518   386739789  5947123964    46349575    78540026    29438261
   C      393   421463161  6455362479    45853355    89709254    29049128
   D       73   106188510  1579635393    10900891    22271447     6397521
   E       99   413869036  6186253980    45202346    84708988    22270512
   X        4    70380000   984143999     8264410    12402612     3100053
C  A      238   285255970  5243546801    42831382    67283068    33034342
   B      579   635189096 11150947722    74791827   159378019    65233038
   C      309   277104774  4852678280    38926397    62979836    26204460
   D       35   371114696  7091376321    46985279   101933591    35102312
   E       41   519031356  9360143981    75240846   121322153    42120644
D  A      244   536411000 10421476686    72135324   146715629    75034626
   B      484   492104682  9197628276    70192142   122957997    62083982
   C      168   755741858 13756104967   108352113   180526039    86663454
   D       18   372000633  8485927063    49402479   128801953    49642675
   E        9   210000000  4888799190    29550510    73114239    26399517
   X        1          70        1008           8          13           5
E  A      388  1197545498 25561529521   195194231   341597742   207048338
   B      455   770484062 16321797691   128429451   214328192   124861721
   C       98   576919806 14425146640   105470633   197457392   103861052
   D        7    90000009  2259199846    18977278    28465905    15249598
   E        8   220000205  5312002773    31825906    79726112    33465618
F  A      485  2057697253 46943225769   353925632   631881957   422488919
   B      251  1211548070 30258234622   193112777   442310051   258707866
   C       33   526002372 12930759838    57950381   213595536   104739156
   D        4    70000000  1724799489     2173247    34047535    13194718
   E        1           0           1           0           0           0
G  A       55   629559473 16861332211   104005742   250082149   166927119
   B       21   285000680  7358603343    33215632   121315021    69538786
H  X        1           0           0           0           0           0


Enjoy!

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #179
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 28 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 180

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re:  QSDS Software for Mac/PC
         2. Re: MMT Adventure Questions.
         3. Re: MMT Adventure Questions.
         4. No fun
         5. Re: A really great thread!!!
         6. Re: No Fun
         7. Re: No Fun
         8. Re: QSDS Software for Mac/PC
         9. Blatant Plug
        10. Re: Margret
        11. Re: Imperial citizens and taxes
        12. Fission Reactors
        13. Re: Fission Reactors
        14. SSDS in WP 5.0 format
        15. Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!
        16. Fission Reactors
        17. Re: Margret

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 11:54:29 -0400
Subject: Re:  QSDS Software for Mac/PC

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:
> I'm working on this, with a student working on the PC version.

Oh, wow!  Cool ...

> Any thoughts on user interface (ie. menus, menu items, dialogs, etc.)? 
> Seeing as you're the recognized QSDS expert...

Not in particular; I was thinking about a Web-based version, but I hadn't
gotten much farther than just thinking.  My major effort at this point is to
build some extended tables so that people will have more fun things to
design.

The one thing I'd like to recommend is to be able to load additional,
expanded tables of data.  While the Huge Table of Hulls might be a little
much to add, it would be very nice to be able to add additional items to all
of the existing tables.

That way, when someone designs a nifty new laser turret, or some other gear,
then, if they post the data in the right format, it could be added into the
program.

> Our goal is to produce software that looks identical on both Mac and
> PC/Windows (and maybe OS/2), and is upwardly compatible with future products
> (ie. the FF&S software we all dream of).

Great!

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   "Dreams do not vanish, so long as people do
                                    not abandon them."  --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:15:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: MMT Adventure Questions.

Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote:
> Hi all.  So I'm thinking up this great adventure idea for MMT, and I have 
> a few questions I thought y'all could help me with:
> 
> 1. At what TL does central nervous system regeneration become possible?
> (e.g., repairing spinal cord or brain damage).

Pure guesstimate on my part is TL 10 for the basics of reattaching and
regenerating spinal and peripheral nerve damage, and TL 12 for effective
nontrivial brain damage repair.  Prosthetic-assisted versions of each 
appear about a TL earlier.  I can't cite canon on this -- it's just how I 
feel.

> 2. What's the densest substance one is reasonably likely to find in large 
> natural deposits (uranium?)?

The densest surface mineral you're likely to find on a vaguely 
terrestrial planet in *large* deposits is iron ore.  The densest material 
you'll find in reasonably pure metallic form is gold, but the deposits of 
that will be much smaller, in general.  The densest stable element is 
osmium, but it's rare, and will tend to be found in compounds (ores) 
which reduce its net density.

> 3. How intelligible would writing from before the Long Night be to the 
> Syleans? (i.e., is it like Shakespearean english, or like Gaelic, or what?)

Given the apparent cultural continuity of English-derived Solomani 
languages, I'd expect the Sylean core language of Year 0 would relate to 
pre-Long Night variants approximately as well as modern English does to 
Chaucer.  For purely technical or formal writing, it would be closer to 
Shakespeare, as this tends to rely much less on slang, idiom, and other 
quickly-changing language elements.

> 4. What is Helium 2, exactly, and does it pose any sort of threat when 
> encountered?

Helium II, as I recall, is simply supercooled helium.  A hair above 
absolute zero, helium becomes a "superfluid" with all kinds of weird 
properties -- no viscosity, quantized convection cells, and a tendency to 
climb the walls of whatever container it's in.  It poses no special 
threat other than being extremely cold (and it requires massive effort to 
keep it that cold -- even the coldest planet won't have He II, as even 
the 3K microwave bacground is too warm for it).  I suppose you could 
cobble together some trick whereby the superfluid properties would be 
dangerous, but that'd be quite a reach.

> Hah!  Now that should get you all wondering! :-)

Oldest trick in the book, that.  Two days before a gaming session, start 
asking your players odd, disconnected questions..."Hey, what's the speed 
of a shock wave in granite?" "How many wasp stings do you think it would 
take to kill a human?"...drives 'em nuts. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:15:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: MMT Adventure Questions.

Quoth Charles Collin:
> 1. At what TL does central nervous system regeneration become possible?
> (e.g., repairing spinal cord or brain damage).

MT's Referee's Companion, p. 32, claims "Tech Level 11: True nerve 
refusion techniques appear, allowing major neural damage (such as
a severed spinal cord) to be surgically repaired."  
 
> 2. What's the densest substance one is reasonably likely to find in large 
> natural deposits (uranium?)?

*Large* natural deposits?  Probably lead (11.4 g/cm3).  :-)  Iridium is 
denser yet (22.5 g/cm3), but tends to be rare and mixed in with platinum
ore, IIRC.  Uranium and its near relatives are heavy (U is 18.9 g/cm3),
but oxidize readily and thus would be much less dense in ore form.  You
could go for the ultra-rare bugaboo of later Traveller, the room-temperature
superconductor Omnesium (atomic number 119, undiscovered).

> 3. How intelligible would writing from before the Long Night be to the 
> Syleans? (i.e., is it like Shakespearean english, or like Gaelic, or what?)

As others have mentioned, literacy tends to stabilize language.  Vocabulary,
idiom, and understood cultural background would be the sticking points.  Try
reading some 18th century essays to get a feel for what a different style
of writing (another possibility) might be like.

> 4. What is Helium 2, exactly, and does it pose any sort of threat when 
> encountered?

I don't think such a beastie exists... Helium-3 (2 protons, 1 neutron) and
Helium-4 (2 and 2) show up regularly.  Where have you seen mention of 
this stuff?
 
> Hah!  Now that should get you all wondering! :-)

Tell!  Tell!  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: jmg141@psu.edu (John M. Gardner)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 13:12:34 -0400
Subject: No fun

>>We must have run out of Threads That Wouldn't Die. :)

>Nah, everybody's just reloading their guns. <g>

Actually, a bunch of us lunies just jumped back in-system with a hold full
of killer rocks!!!


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:43:18 -0800
Subject: Re: A really great thread!!!

On 28 Jun 96 at 0:07, Paul Walker spewed:

<snip>

> >"this is the thread that never ends,
> >it just goes on and on my frinds,
> >some people started flaming it not knowing what it was
> >and they'll continue flaming it forever just because..

> "this is the thread that never ends,
> it just goes on and on my frinds,
> some people started flaming it not knowing what it was
> and they'll continue flaming it forever just because..

This is the thread that never ends,
It just goes on and on my frinds,
some peope started flaming it not knowing what it was
and they'll continue flaming it forever just because... 

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:43:17 -0800
Subject: Re: No Fun

On 27 Jun 96 at 13:22, Derek Stanley spewed:

> Here's a topic for speculation.  What was Margret doing pushing back into 
> the Glimmer Drift like that?
> 
> Was she:
> 
> 1) Pulling out.
> 2) Searching for new markets.

I would expect #2.  Every word I've read about Margaret had her being 
more worried about making the trains run on time than restoring her 
empire.

 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:43:18 -0800
Subject: Re: No Fun

On 27 Jun 96 at 19:11, David J. Golden spewed:

>         OK, to keep the messages flowing ... can anybody explain to me what
> the heck a "Feudal Technocracy" is and what its effects are on a game?
> 
>         (Ducks, runs for cover).

Stu pulls out his virtual FGMP-15 and pumps several shots in Dave's
direction...  ;-)

Stu


 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 17:34:22 GMT
Subject: Re: QSDS Software for Mac/PC

On 28 Jun 1996 11:01:57 GMT, Rob Prior wrote:

> Any thoughts on user interface (ie. menus, menu items, dialogs, etc.)? 

Just make sure that it can readily accept errata-- I mean, extra stuff  8-)

Take a look at the GURPS character generator for some good ideas.  This little
program can save you *tons* of time by doing all of your calculations for you.
It will even pick all the necessary skills you will need if you try to take any
of the advanced skills requiring prerequisites-- *automatically*!

Additional "plug in" upgrades might also be a good idea in the future.  These
upgrades would consist of additional menu choices for FF&S-style detail.


------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 13:36:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Blatant Plug

 I almost forgot to plug my website in a prev. post. :)

Things have been updated a bit, so check out
http://www.magmacom.com/~ehenry/traveller

You'll need Netscape 2.0 or higher

Ethan

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:52:39 -0800
Subject: Re: Margret

On 28 Jun 96 at 8:30, Derek Stanley spewed:

> Actually when you read Rebellion, this is before things get really weird, 
> Margret is probably one of the most likable candidates for Player 
> Characters to follow.  Sure Craig, Brzk, and The Brothers Varien also fit 
> into this catagory, but at the time I was playing a character who was a 
> member of the Verminie so my loyalties are kind of swayed in that 
> direction.  Plus when you play an RC campaign her strong hold is the one 
> thats closest to the Coalition.

There are some things to dislike about Margaret as well...

She is portrayed in a number of canonical sources as being somebody 
who is more worried about the economic condition of her realm than 
the welfare of her citizens.  There are veiled references to a slave 
trade going on within Margaret's domain, apparently with Margaret's 
knowledge, if not necessarily with her blessing.  In Arrival 
Vengeance, which is really about as close a look at the personality 
of several of the factions as we will find, she is portrayed as 
rather cold, distant, and slightly arrogant.  

She is not portrayed as using people as cannon fodder, such as Lucan
would, but she doesn't seem particularly caring for her people either.

On the other hand, Arrival Vengeance portrays the 2 heroic factions 
as being Craig and Norris.  Arrival Vengeance is basically written as 
a bridge between Hard Times, and the as yet to come Virus Era...
It has a very strong pro-Domain of Deneb slant...

The best sources for information on the various factions are
For the early period (Rebellion)
Rebellion Sourcebook
For the later period (Hard Times)
Hard Times Sourcebook
Arrival Vengeance

all three have pretty good general depictions of the state of each 
faction for the era involved.

BTW, Derek, I like your ideas about Margaret's expansion into 
Glimmerdrift, and the subsequent effects on Milieu 1200...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:52:39 -0800
Subject: Re: Imperial citizens and taxes

On 28 Jun 96 at 11:25, Matthew Harelick spewed:

> Hi: 
> 
> What precisely defines an imperial citizen? 
> 
> From what I remember about the description of the rebellion, Dulinor 
> wanted the Imperium to rule the worlds and not the space in between 
> them. This tells me that just because a world claims allegiance towards
> the Imperium does not mean that all the citizens of that world are the
> citizens of the Imperium. 

Actually, a Citizen of the Imperium would IMO, be best defined as a 
citizen of 1 of the worlds which is a member of the Imperium.  They 
would therefore be eligible for those legal protections entitled to 
them as a citizen of the Imperium.  Unfortunately for that person, 
the vast majority of those protections only extend from 1000 AU out 
of the star system...

Remember that there are some instances in which the Imperium WILL 
take interest in the internal affairs of its member worlds.  For 
example, if a member world...

a) Uses nukes to suppress a rebellion, or to fight another government 
on a balkanized world...  (Imperial Rules of War)

b) A dominant race in a world engages in genocidal practices towards 
another race recognized as sentient by the Imperium... (High Justice 
Crimes)

c) If a world is not prepared to deal with interstellar contact, for 
whatever reason, the Imperium will interdict it... 

d) If a world or portions of the population of the world act in such 
a way as to undermine the security or sovereignty of the Imperium 
within a member world, the Imperium will intervene (Efate in 5FW for 
example)...

There are other examples, but the Imperium is not the Federation of 
Planets.  There is no Prime Directive.  The Imperium will intervene 
in the affairs of a member world if certain circumstances dictate 
it...although such intervention is extremely rare.  Dulinor (and later, 
Norris, incidentally) both just wanted it to be a lot less rare...

> Matthew
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 13:59:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Fission Reactors

> > > ...Maybe explain why you'd want to use TL9-11 Fusion plants when TL8 Fission
> > > plants are cheaper & smaller (ie: what are the game effects to using fission).
> > 
> > A flying Hanford (you know, the site in SW Washington that is leaking all
> > sorts of grotesque things into the Columbia...)
> 
> I know that *we* all know the answers to these questions (like # of spinal
> mounts), but newbies to Traveller might not.  Anyways, *rules* (a few sentences
> at most) for fission disasters might be a good idea.
> 

	For combat, you could say that a hit on a fission reactor gives 
an additional crew hit, or something.

- --Muir



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:25:35 -0800
Subject: Re: Fission Reactors

On 28 Jun 96 at 13:59, John Macpherson spewed:

> 
> > > > ...Maybe explain why you'd want to use TL9-11 Fusion plants when TL8 Fission
> > > > plants are cheaper & smaller (ie: what are the game effects to using fission).
> > > 
> > > A flying Hanford (you know, the site in SW Washington that is leaking all
> > > sorts of grotesque things into the Columbia...)
> > 
> > I know that *we* all know the answers to these questions (like # of spinal
> > mounts), but newbies to Traveller might not.  Anyways, *rules* (a few sentences
> > at most) for fission disasters might be a good idea.
> > 
> 
> 	For combat, you could say that a hit on a fission reactor gives 
> an additional crew hit, or something.
> 

Er, actually, it should probably be an additional crew hit per day until the 
ship is decontaminated, since the radiation will be lingering...

On the other hand I can definitely see some of the Milieu 0 pocket 
empires having this problem.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:28:28 -0800
Subject: SSDS in WP 5.0 format

Joe and David,

I took the time to download FF&S Light/SSDS, or whatever we're 
calling it now.  I also saved it to Word Perfect 5.0 format.  If 
either 1 of you wants it, let me know, and I'll fire it off to 
tonight after I get home from work...  I am going to take it to work 
(which has WP 6.1) to see if it loads up fine from there...this 
afternoon...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 18:57:02 GMT
Subject: Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!

A few more little details:

...Under Thruster Plates (Tech Level 11+)... last sentence, second last
paragraph "... Drenid Deep Space Research Facility in Silea system is still
resupplied,..." ('in Silea system' should read 'in *the Sylea* system').

...Also under Thruster Plates (Tech Level 11+)... last sentence, last paragraph
"... from the rear of many Imperial vessel*s* is, perhaps,..." ('vessel' should
be plural).  This last sentence is also a little too specific, since it assumes
that only Imperial ships will have Thruster Plates (a distinction made only by
playing in the Milieu 0 setting).Additionally, what is the 'subtle space-warp'
in regards to?

...Under SELECT OFFENSIVE WEAPONS... third sentence, fourth paragraph "...
charged particle accelerator weapon*s* (CPAW)..." ('weapon' should be plural).
Additionally, according to Word 7.0, the text "carefully-calculated" in the last
sentence of the fifth paragraph does not need to be hyphenated  8-)

...First sentence under SELECT CONTROLS AND ELECTRONICS contains no closing
punctuation.

...Under Electronic Packages (Comm/Sensor), delete the word "an" from the
following selection:  "... pre-defined packages, *an* add those items
individually."

...Add closing punctuation to the opening sentence in the Advanced Civilian,
Exploration/Survey, and Milirary sensor package descriptions.

...Under Fuel Scoops, delete the apostrophe from "it's" from the following
section: "... fuel equal to 20% of *it's* total maximum fuel...."

...Under SELECT PASSENGER CAPACITY..., move the closing punctuation *outside*
the closing parenthesis in the last sentence of the second paragraph.
Additionally, everything from "Total up all the crew..." to Drop all
fractions,..." could be set aside using numeric 'bullets' (with the three
'passage' types being further divided) to create more of a check list for this
section.

...The sentence "Emergency low berths can be installed (one for every four
people) in case of *emergencies*" should include the term 'medical emergency' to
better describe their use (sounds cooler, too).

...In the following paragraph beginning with the words "Command, Electronics,
Maneuvering...", consider rewriting the last sentence to read "but still need *a
(dedicated)* workstation."



------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 19:03:39 GMT
Subject: Fission Reactors

jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said: 
 
>On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 18:01:31 -0700 (PDT), Charles Pratt wrote: 
 
>> On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, James Lindsay wrote: 
[snip] 
>>> ...Maybe explain why you'd want to use TL9-11 Fusion plants  
>>> when TL8 Fission plants are cheaper & smaller (ie: what are  
>>> the game effects to using fission). 
  
>> A flying Hanford (you know, the site in SW Washington that is  
>> leaking all sorts of grotesque things into the Columbia...) 
 
>I know that *we* all know the answers to these questions (like # of spinal

>mounts), but newbies to Traveller might not.  Anyways, *rules* (a few 
>sentences at most) for fission disasters might be a good idea. 
 
No, *we* obviously don't know the answers to these questions. 
Put in "rules" for fission disasters in Traveller, and you 
reduce the game to non-science space-opera, and cause the 
real gearheads to sneer at the author's ignorance a lot.   
(If you knew how many howls of laughter nuclear engineers 
get out of the movie "China Syndrome"...) 
 
Fusion reactors are assumed to operate normally, without 
special rules for disasters.  So should fission reactors; 
a properly designed fission reactor is far safer than 
any other known power generation technology.   
(There is at least one member of the gdw-beta list with 
nuclear reactor experience in the Real World(tm); ask 
him, if you're worried about it). 
 
             --Cynthia, pet peeve button hit 
 
- -- 
"The Internet is a telephone system that's gotten uppity." 
                                                -- Clifford Stoll 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---------- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 13:10:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Margret

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> 
> There are some things to dislike about Margaret as well...
> 
> She is portrayed in a number of canonical sources as being somebody
> who is more worried about the economic condition of her realm than
> the welfare of her citizens.  There are veiled references to a slave
> trade going on within Margaret's domain, apparently with Margaret's
> knowledge, if not necessarily with her blessing.  In Arrival
> Vengeance, which is really about as close a look at the personality
> of several of the factions as we will find, she is portrayed as
> rather cold, distant, and slightly arrogant.

I got the Impression from Rebellion, I've never seen Hard-Times and I've 
never read Arrival Vengence, that Margaret is well intentioned but really 
has no idea as to how to be a real ruler of people.  She's a buisness 
woman, not a polititian and as such she tends to suffer for it.

I had no idea about a slave trade going on in Delphi.  Does the Arrival 
Vengence incident take place after the birth of the twins and her 
subsequent proclamation by Iris or before.  Okay, Strephon refrences 
giving Avery away in 1125, This is also the year that Margret is accused 
of Genocide and Slavery, (Survival Margin).  This is after Iris has 
proclamed her the most eligible recipient of the Iridium Throne etc.  
This is also after she's destroyed the Vermine (sp).  This is at the 
point where Margret started to become more and more like many of the 
other factions, self interested in her own claim to the throne rather 
than in her peoples well being.
 
> She is not portrayed as using people as cannon fodder, such as Lucan
> would, but she doesn't seem particularly caring for her people either.
> 
> On the other hand, Arrival Vengeance portrays the 2 heroic factions
> as being Craig and Norris.  Arrival Vengeance is basically written as
> a bridge between Hard Times, and the as yet to come Virus Era...
> It has a very strong pro-Domain of Deneb slant...

Craig and Norris are the only one's, well lets lump Brzk in here to but 
he's dead by this point, who aren't after the throne whole heartedly.  
They're more interested in the welfare of their people than carving out 
as much territory for themselves as they can.
 
> The best sources for information on the various factions are
> For the early period (Rebellion)
> Rebellion Sourcebook
> For the later period (Hard Times)
> Hard Times Sourcebook
> Arrival Vengeance
> 
> all three have pretty good general depictions of the state of each
> faction for the era involved.
> 
> BTW, Derek, I like your ideas about Margaret's expansion into
> Glimmerdrift, and the subsequent effects on Milieu 1200...

Thank you, thank you very much.

Derek Stanley 
> Stu
> "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
> Bob's Pet Shop.
> Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #180
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 28 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 181

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Sylean Exploration Corp.
         2. Re: Fission Reactors
         3. Re: Fission Reactors
         4. Re: SSDS Format
         5. Re: [T96#154] Virus
         6. Re: No Fun
         7. Re: No Fun
         8. Re: SSDS format
         9. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
        10. Re: SSDS Format
        11. Re: SSDS format
        12. Rational Discussion
        13. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
        14. Re: Fission Reactors
        15. Re: SSDS format

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 13:40:51 -0700
Subject: Sylean Exploration Corp.

A while back I read a review on the Sylean exploration cruiser (?) I 
think that's what it was.

Anyway the person was saying that the ship really wasn't big enough at 
500 tons to be a real warship.  Some thoughts on that comment.

1) In T4 Milieu 0 the base TL is 11/12.  Really large ships require 
massive crews at this TL due to the fact it's not as easy to automate as 
it is at TL15.  Not written well but you get the point.

2) The Sylean Federation is an expansive state.  How long has it existed, 
I'm not sure, but it seems to me that if you're interested in expanding 
your sphere of influence you're better off to have 10 500 ton vessels 
marching around than 1 5,000 ton vessel.  This give you the ability to be 
in more than one place at one time.  

3) It takes longer to build a larger ship.  As an expanding state would 
you rather have your dry dock taken up by one 5,000 ton ship or 10 500 
ton ships.  Again, probably the 10 ships you can crank them out faster 
and therefore have a greater density of ship's on the frontier.

4) How many other states you're likely to encounter are going to be 
building 5,000 ton vessels?  Not many and given that you're the cutting 
technology society in the remains of the second Imperium they will likely 
be much less of a threat to you even if they are building them.

5) This is not from a military stand point but rather from a role playing 
stand point, how easy is it to role play a game on a ship with a crew of 
300?  How about a ship with a crew of 30?  It much easier on a smaller 
ship to allow the players the freedom to, "Jam sink the hyperdrive" and 
"do a reverse polarity scan for isotropic residue."  With a crew of 300 
or 3,000, lets face it no player wants to play Jimmy the toilet scrubber 
they all want to be Grand Admiral Ramapage, 1st cousin to the Emperor, 
Scourge of the Skies, Master of Anti-matter and Boyscout 1st class, there 
are people who do that kind of work for you.

Admiral Bwana: "Boot boy, once you've finished polishing my calalry boots 
make sure to take that really interesting alien isotope down to Dr. 
Pilgrim for analysis.  I'll just sit up here and wait for his results."

No damnit most player characters want to be in the lab when that jar 
explodes, or whatever.  Saying to Admrial Bwana, "Well, Dr Pilgrim failed 
his roll the Isotope becomes totally unstable and blows up the ship."  Is 
not likely to get the best reception from your PC's.  Where as if they 
blow the ship up themselves, they know there was nothing they could have 
done about it.  They failed 5 rolls in a row, it was their fault.

Thoughts?  Input?

(I'm wearing my asbestos undies and kevlar vest so do you worst.)

Derek Stanley

- --Quickly ducks behind a desk expecting the worst.  Pots and pans begin 
flying.

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@rt66.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 14:50:07 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Fission Reactors

  
> No, *we* obviously don't know the answers to these questions. 
> Put in "rules" for fission disasters in Traveller, and you 
> reduce the game to non-science space-opera, and cause the 
> real gearheads to sneer at the author's ignorance a lot.   
> (If you knew how many howls of laughter nuclear engineers 
> get out of the movie "China Syndrome"...) 

I know a bunch of space nuclear power people here and in Los
Alamos---I'm also a radical environmentaist.  Split atoms, not trees!
:-)

That said, I think that compared to a fusion reactor, fission reators
*will* be more dangerous.  I know that negative thermal coefficient
reactors (pellet beds) won't melt down, but that isn't the point when
considering radiation worries during combat in a closed environment.

When a missile rips through the hull and whacks my fission reactor, no
it won't blow up or melt down.  It will, however, have a chance of
sending (now vaporized by MJs of damage) nasty fuel around.  Do you
think that it's more or less dangerous to be in a drive room filled with
Pu vapor, or H gas?  :-)

> special rules for disasters.  So should fission reactors; 
> a properly designed fission reactor is far safer than 
> any other known power generation technology.   

Yup.  By far.  For normal operations.  Having rules for what happens
when a PAW rips the reactor core apart is a different story.
  
You're right though, I'd puke if I saw some crap about nukes leaking
radiation in normal use.  It is possible, though if they aren't taken
care of.  People errors, nothing wrong with the technology of it.

>              --Cynthia, pet peeve button hit 
  
A major peeve of mine is anti-nuke nuts as well :-)
(sorry, that's redundant)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:04:40 GMT
Subject: Re: Fission Reactors

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996 19:03:39 GMT, Cynthia wrote that I wrote:

> >I know that *we* all know the answers to these questions (like # of spinal
> >mounts), but newbies to Traveller might not.  Anyways, *rules* (a few 
> >sentences at most) for fission disasters might be a good idea. 
>  
> No, *we* obviously don't know the answers to these questions. 
> Put in "rules" for fission disasters in Traveller, and you 
> reduce the game to non-science space-opera, and cause the 
> real gearheads to sneer at the author's ignorance a lot.   

Actually, I was referring to rulings like the number of spinal mounts that can
be placed on a single ship (specifically, their relation to parallel and janus
mounts which aren't mentioned in SSDS), number of turrets/bays per 100t/1,1000t
displacement, etc.
  
> Fusion reactors are assumed to operate normally, without 
> special rules for disasters.  So should fission reactors; 
> a properly designed fission reactor is far safer than 
> any other known power generation technology.   
> (There is at least one member of the gdw-beta list with 
> nuclear reactor experience in the Real World(tm); ask 
> him, if you're worried about it). 

Now that I think of it, our CANDU reactors are pretty safe  8-)  I merely wanted
to put forward the fact that-- according to Real World(tm) logic-- there is
little reason to make the switch from smaller, cheaper fission reactors at TL8
to large, expensive fusion reactors at TL9 *if* your power requirements do not
excede 1,000MW or so (I thought that there was some unwritten rule for fission
power that I was not aware of).

I *am* aware that fusion reactors would only deal with a small amount of matter
during the fusion process at one time.  A failure at this point would release
very little radiation.  Fission reactors, on the other hand, deal with
potentially more dangerous materials and have to have appropriate safety
features built in-- and these can fail.

Under the current SSDS rules, fusion power plants don't really become viable
until they produce more than 250MW, *unless* you have access to fusion "plus" at
TL12.  All of the figures for a TL8 250MW fission reactor are less than those of
a TL10 1,000MW fusion reactor (except for power output, obviously).  If your
power requirements are under 250MW, evan a TL11 vessel may want to use a TL8
fission power plant to bring costs down and reduce Engineering requirements.  As
they stand, it is impossible to build a TL9 100t vessel, and extremely hard to
make a profitable vessel under 500t or so (due to the cost of fusion power
plants) without resorting to a TL8 fission power plant.

Mostly everyone that has submitted ship designs have built them using the
superior TL12 technology (fusion "plus", T-Plates, etc.).  According to things I
have heard, however, the Imperium will hold the monopoly on TL12 in Milieu 0.
Even if the Imperium has reached TL12, this doesn't mean that all of her
shipyards are TL12 as well.  My concerns are with these backwater shipyards-- as
well as some of the lesser advanced races-- and their ability to create small,
lower-tech vessels.  Since TL8 fission power plants are smaller & cheaper, I was
merely wondering if there were any drawbacks to them.




jlindsay@direct.ca    Vancouver, British Columbia

"WIZARD PARKING ONLY"... All Others Will Be Toad.

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 16:03:55 -0500
Subject: Re: SSDS Format

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Subject: SSDS format
>
>Well, it looks like I won't be using SSDS anytime soon.  The RTF file, 
>when imported to WP 6.0a, has lots of pages that have text only down the 
>left-hand side, about 10 characters wide...makes for a lengthy document! :(
>
>When I tried to import the Word 6.0 version into WordPerfect 6.1 (which 
>we have at work), WP gagged on it, even though I was able to import the 
>Word 6.0 version of QSDS using the same program.  Sigh.
>
>Has anyone else had better luck getting SSDS into any version of WordPerfect?
>

Joe, (and any other people looking for SSDS in another format)

I sent to Dave a version of SSDS for Word 2.0.  I don'e know if it will work
right for any of you, but maybe he will have it up by tonight.  If not, send
me a message and I'll try to get it out, or better yet, on my web page.

Hope this helps!


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 17:44:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#154] Virus

T::>At 04:36 pm 6/26/96 -0500, you wrote:
 ::>>
 ::>>T::>        Hmm... standardized machine code, runs on multiple platforms,
 ::>can be
 ::>> ::>used maliciously on people who unknowingly access it ... OMIGOD! Virus is
 ::>> ::>Java! Sun takes over the world in the future!
 ::>>
 ::>> <CHOKE> <SPRAY> <SPUTTER> Mmmf!  You bastard!  Now I have to clean
 ::>> partly used food out of this keyboard _again_!

T::>        Don't you have a "no food or drink within three feet" sign posted by
 ::>your computer ...?

 Only at the office.  I read the TML at home.  Where I have a
 combined living/dining/den with a kitchen with no breakfast nook.
 If I had that sign, I'd pretty much have to eat standing in the
 kitchen...

 That line about Java was wonderful!  I was still laughing - hard -
 when I put the keyboard back together...

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  You are in a maze of twisty subroutines, all alike.


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 18:15:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: No Fun

 

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> This is no fun, I'm actually having to do work cause I'm running out of mail
> to read!!!  :)
> 
> 
> Paul  {tiger}
> 

  Well, ex-cuuuse use, Mr. Union Employee! <g>

  Sheesh, I've been working 12 hours a day, and the mail is piled HIGH
right now...<yikes - 400 messages!>

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 18:22:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: No Fun

 

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 06/27/96 at 02:12 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> said:
> 
> >We must have run out of Threads That Wouldn't Die. :)
> 
> Nah, everybody's just reloading their guns. <g>

  Or <gasp> working! ;->

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@Mail.Bostaden.Umea.SE>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 00:57:14 +1
Subject: Re: SSDS format

> From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> When I tried to import the Word 6.0 version into WordPerfect 6.1 (which 
> we have at work), WP gagged on it, even though I was able to import the 
> Word 6.0 version of QSDS using the same program.  Sigh.

> Has anyone else had better luck getting SSDS into any version of
> WordPerfect?

Well, being a neighbourly soul ;-), I just exported it to WordPerfect 
5.0. (I figured an older format would be more useful to the greatest 
number of people...) I could handle Works, earlier Word versions, 
Write, just plain text or a very, very bad html translation. 
(Internet Assistant just isn't all that good a product. Still, it's 
free. ;-)

The file's available at:

    ftp://ftp.baldakinen.umea.se/baldjkn/finalwp5.zip

until I remember to take it away. Which means it'll probably be there 
for a week or two, my memory being what it is. ;-)

It's on the wrong side of a 64k connection, so please, everyone, be 
gentle. ;-)

> From: "Daniel A. Taylor" <danielt@dgii.com>
> Could someone please convert the FF&S Light doc to
> a portable format so that those of us without Word6
> can check it over?

Is WP5.0 portable? If so, see above. ;-) If not, get in touch.


/Jonas

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 19:25:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> 2) The Sylean Federation is an expansive state.  How long has it existed, 
> I'm not sure, but it seems to me that if you're interested in expanding 
> your sphere of influence you're better off to have 10 500 ton vessels 
> marching around than 1 5,000 ton vessel.  This give you the ability to be 
> in more than one place at one time.  

This sounds right to me. But didn't someone say something about fighters 
being the way to win a space war?  If that's the case, maybe larger ships 
with more fighters /are/ the better way to go.  


> 5) This is not from a military stand point but rather from a role playing 
> stand point, how easy is it to role play a game on a ship with a crew of 
> 300?  How about a ship with a crew of 30?  It much easier on a smaller 
> ship to allow the players the freedom to, "Jam sink the hyperdrive" and 
> "do a reverse polarity scan for isotropic residue."  With a crew of 300 

Right.  That's a major problem with the TL 11 and FF&S rules, where you 
end up with rather large crews.  I'm glad it was decided to put the 
additional rule in there where 100 and 200 ton craft can be run by 1 
and 2 people, respectively.  Even if I had a group of 6 players (which I 
don't), I think they'd dislike (and I know I would dislike) forcing them 
to run a ship with as many (or more) NPC's than PC's.  

To me, this is an important area where, in the fight of playability vs. 
realism, playability just has to win out.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 19:31:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: SSDS Format

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> Joe, (and any other people looking for SSDS in another format)
> 
> I sent to Dave a version of SSDS for Word 2.0.  I don'e know if it will work
> right for any of you, but maybe he will have it up by tonight.  If not, send
> me a message and I'll try to get it out, or better yet, on my web page.
> 
> Hope this helps!

Thanks, I'll try that!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@Mail.Bostaden.Umea.SE>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 02:09:17 +1
Subject: Re: SSDS format

> From:          "Daniel A. Taylor" <danielt@dgii.com>
> > Is WP5.0 portable? If so, see above. ;-) If not, get in touch.
> >
> One of the Adobe formats would be preferred, but Write works.
> (PS or PDF) 

Okeydokey. Write it is.

I've also put up a .ps file, which looks ok in Ghostscript. YMMV.

An eps file was far too much hassle, as I'd then - according to word 
- - have to make one for each page. Since I'd much rather go to sleep 
about an hour ago, I declined. ;-)

The files are in the appropriately named zip-files found in the same 
directory as the previous one. To wit:

    ftp://ftp.baldakinen.umea.se/baldjkn

/Jonas, feeling sleepy...

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 20:48:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Rational Discussion

William bosterously proclaims:
:Larry, As I Recall, this subject got dropped last year as it couldn't be
:kept to a rational discussion because some people kept spouting the same
:gibberish constantly, bothering those who did try intelligent discourse.
 
:Those who like virus are gonna invoke the "How can we understand" line of
:thought, without reguard for anythinng else.
 
  That's the impression I got too. I was ready to pull my hair out when Derek
  (whom I otherwise respect) just kept repeating the same thing after I
  explained to him that his idea wouldn't work! <g>
 
  I think the pro-virus side believes that Virus is some kind of space-ghost
  that can exist in limbo, exerting it's will on Physical Matter until it
  achieves it's goal - a home on a mainframe. (of course, they don't bother
  thinking about WHY the virus wants the mainframe to start with...)
 
:Unfortunately for your line of thought, apple is merging code/data with
:containerized applications (OpenDoc); a container holds code and/or data
:and/or resources.
 
  I'm aware of OpenDoc. It's an open standard rebuttal to the closed MFC
  standard. It's essentially OOP, and _does_ delineate between code and
  data at the machine level, it HAS to otherwise it couldn't run on p-mode
  systems like OS/2 (an OpenDoc client).

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 



------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 18:25:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> A while back I read a review on the Sylean exploration cruiser (?) I
> think that's what it was.
Sylean Warship, or somesuch.

> Anyway the person was saying that the ship really wasn't big enough at
> 500 tons to be a real warship.  Some thoughts on that comment.
 Nope ;)
 And yes, that was me.

> 1) In T4 Milieu 0 the base TL is 11/12.  Really large ships require
> massive crews at this TL due to the fact it's not as easy to automate as
> it is at TL15.  Not written well but you get the point.
 True, but did that stop Britian from building the HMS Dreadnought, or for
that matter any current day large warship(current US Carriers are
literialley small floating citys...)

> 2) The Sylean Federation is an expansive state.  How long has it existed,
> I'm not sure, but it seems to me that if you're interested in expanding
> your sphere of influence you're better off to have 10 500 ton vessels
> marching around than 1 5,000 ton vessel.  This give you the ability to be
> in more than one place at one time.
 No doubt, no doubt in the least!
 Merley, all I was saying was that that was _not_ a warship. Imperial
warships according to 'Ships of the Line'(Ok, I forget what the CT book
was called<grin>, if you really care I'll say) but the smallest genuine
warships(capitol ships)/ships of the line were 25,000dtonne and the
largest was 500,000Dtonne...
 Of course, I'm not the type who would consider a Gazelle a warship, but I
would consider a Midu Agaasham escort(which is the same class size). There
is a diffrince between a warship and a escort, tho.

> 4) How many other states you're likely to encounter are going to be
> building 5,000 ton vessels?  Not many and given that you're the cutting
> technology society in the remains of the second Imperium they will likely
> be much less of a threat to you even if they are building them.
 A few. Rember, that this is from a decayed empire, hence there would be
some relic ships lying around.. However, they would be rare.

> 5) This is not from a military stand point but rather from a role playing
> stand point, how easy is it to role play a game on a ship with a crew of
> 300?  How about a ship with a crew of 30?  It much easier on a smaller
> ship to allow the players the freedom to, "Jam sink the hyperdrive" and
<snip>
 Aggreed 100%, that's why most 'pc sized' starships are under the
1000dtonne mark. If you did want to do a large ship, just look at<I hate
to mention it> Star Trek, put the players in key posisitions(From the ST
point of view, they'res about 30 people on that ship ;)

> (I'm wearing my asbestos undies and kevlar vest so do you worst.)
 No need for that....


 After all, I've got a rock dropper<grin>

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: Edward Baltz <eabaltz@pac2.berkeley.edu>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 18:36:04 -0700
Subject: Re: Fission Reactors

This is a case where they really didn't think through the implications of the
technology.  With nuclear dampers, the strong and weak nuclear forces can be
manipulated on large scales.  Put your reaction vessel in a big nuclear damper
box and PRESTO! Lead 206 is fissile!  Or any other heavy "stable" element.
Even with the available safety features that make disasters unlikely, if
something starts to go wrong, just kill the power to the nuclear damper and you
have a lump of really hot lead.  Ooooh, real dangerous.  This is even ok by
energy conservation.  Lead releases energy if its split, it just wont split by
thermal neutrons.  This is where the damper comes in.

This is also a great way to make fission warheads.  Take a lump of lead and a
nuclear damper.  Detonate by making Lead 206 really unstable, decaying by
spontaneous fission.  Pretty simple.

I don't know exactly what the canon says about the capabilities of nuclear
dampers, but it seems that they can do enough different things so that even
wierder things are possible.

Ted Baltz
fizzix grajooate stoodint
eabaltz@pac2.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:07:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: SSDS format

On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Jonas Karlsson wrote:

> Well, being a neighbourly soul ;-), I just exported it to WordPerfect 
> 5.0. (I figured an older format would be more useful to the greatest 
> number of people...) I could handle Works, earlier Word versions, 
> Write, just plain text or a very, very bad html translation. 
> (Internet Assistant just isn't all that good a product. Still, it's 
> free. ;-)
> 
> The file's available at:
> 
>     ftp://ftp.baldakinen.umea.se/baldjkn/finalwp5.zip

Well, I've had no luck.  Someone sent me a uuencoded version of SSDS 
(sorry, I deleted the header info after I exported the email, and don't 
remember who it was! drat, drat, drat).  I uudecoded it, downloaded it, 
and loaded it into WP 6.0.  It translated it from WP 5.0 with no 
problems.  Then, when I scrolled down to the second page, it gave me an 
error indicating some area of memory was corrupted, and forced me to shut 
down.  Grrr.

Then I went to the address above and downloaded the file.  I unzipped it, 
loaded it into WP (again, the translation was no problem).  But, once 
again, as soon as I tried to view page 2, it crashed on me....with the 
same error message.

Now, I can load any other file and have no problems (I'm on a machine 
with 32 MB, so RAM isn't a problem ;).  But every version of SSDS makes 
it gag.  Maybe I'm just not meant to have this file . . . 

Thanks to all who attempted to help.  <sigh>

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #181
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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 29 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 182

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Fission Reactors
         2. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
         3. Re: Feudal Tech
         4. Re: QSDS/SSDS/FF&S errata (IG PLEASE READ!)
         5. Re: No Fun
         6. Re: FF&S Light
         7. Deckplans
         8. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
         9. Leotians?
        10. Aging and super-characters
        11. Re: Virus by Email
        12. Re: Virus by Email
        13. Re: 20 thoughts on virus
        14. Re: Virus, Traveller, Reality

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 20:03:52 +0000
Subject: Re: Fission Reactors

> Fusion reactors are assumed to operate normally, without 
> special rules for disasters.  So should fission reactors; 
> a properly designed fission reactor is far safer than 
> any other known power generation technology.   
> (There is at least one member of the gdw-beta list with 
> nuclear reactor experience in the Real World(tm); ask 
> him, if you're worried about it). 

Ship-reactors do face one disaster that current reactors do not: they 
fly, and can crash.  This may cause some worlds to ban or restrict 
such ships from entering the atmosphere.  Plus, when refueling is 
required, it is more expensive and inconvenient.  I think this 
balances a stable, mature technology being more space efficient than 
fusion at earlier tech levels.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@mindlink.net

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 17:55:16 -0600
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

On 06/28/96 at 01:40 PM,  Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> said:

>Anyway the person was saying that the ship really wasn't big enough
>at  500 tons to be a real warship.

That sort of depends on the size of everybody else's warships doesn't
it?

I agree with all 5 of your points. 

>--Quickly ducks behind a desk expecting the worst.  Pots and pans
>begin  flying.

So I guess I'll join you beind that desk. <g>

Seriously, I think some folks are most interested in building these
monster warships...why?  Maybe they just like to build them?  Maybe
they are involved in fleet/taskforce games where they less play
characters than play ships...sort of SFB like?

Personally, I'm interested in a ship *entirely* for what it brings to
the roleplaying experience.  I don't especially care about armor
values, laser ROFs, or the arguments between the KKE & Det-Laser
missle folks.  I want a ship where characters actually use their
skills to *fly*, *fight* and *fix* the darn thing...and I don't care
it that's unrealistic or not.  A gunner uses her *gunnery* skill to
target and shoot at an opponent.  A pilot uses her *pilot* skill to
maneuver the ship.  An astrogator uses his *astrogation* skill to find
and lock onto jump coordinates. Techs and engineers use their
*gravtics* skill to fix the broken grav module, *electronics* skill to
fix the sensors, etc.

Frankly, I don't care that much about space combat.  That *rarely*
comes up, and when it does I'll handle it both more abstractly and
with more detail.  The detail is what the PC's *do*, and the results
of the combat.  The abstract is the how of the combat.

I haven't seen *that* emphasised anywhere!

Ok Derek, still want me behind the desk with you. <g>

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:50:07 -0600
Subject: Re: Feudal Tech

At 12:07 am 6/28/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
>>Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:11:11 -0600
>>Subject: Re: No Fun
>>
>>At 02:12 pm 6/27/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>>On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is no fun, I'm actually having to do work cause I'm running out of
mail
>>>> to read!!!  :)
>>>
>>>We must have run out of Threads That Wouldn't Die. :)
>>
>>        OK, to keep the messages flowing ... can anybody explain to me what
>>the heck a "Feudal Technocracy" is and what its effects are on a game?
>>
>>        (Ducks, runs for cover).
>
>Right, like you're really gonna sucker anyone into this one?  Didn't you get
>enough pain while doing SSDS, or do we need to hurt you some more?  ;)

        Hit me beat me make me bleed.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:51:58 -0600
Subject: Re: QSDS/SSDS/FF&S errata (IG PLEASE READ!)

At 08:42 am 6/28/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I agree with a previous poster, in that in my view it is _extremely_
>important that the design sequences be one-hundred percent compatible _AND_
>that the errata be kept to an absolute MINIMUM.  
>
>I would cheerfully wait another month or more for products that are, above
>all, error-free.  These reams of errata really hurt a product.

        Unfortunately we don't have that choice. I really wish I'd had a
month to do the basic development, instead of one week. I know what I put
out doesn't really satisfy me, and I'm sure others agree, but it's better
than what we were offered before we started.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 22:42:02 -0600
Subject: Re: No Fun

On 06/28/96 at 06:22 PM,  Larry Hadley
<lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> said:

>> >We must have run out of Threads That Wouldn't Die. :)
>> 
>> Nah, everybody's just reloading their guns. <g>

>  Or <gasp> working! ;->

Work?  Yes, I've heard of that.  Isn't that something that people of
the late 20th century did in order to buy Traveller products?

Of course, in these enlightened times, complete access to all things
Traveller is a natural right....yeah right! <G>

Right now, I'm *suffering* <g> through my vacation from work..ah
glorious summer vacation, the only benefit of being a teacher...it's
certainly not the pay! <g>

Eris 
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:53:27 -0600
Subject: Re: FF&S Light

At 10:33 am 6/28/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Could someone please convert the FF&S Light doc to
>a portable format so that those of us without Word6
>can check it over?

        Rich Text Format (RTF) is generally considered a portable format ...
however, thanks to two kind gentlesophonts, you can now get a Word2.0 and a
WordPerfect 5 version from the FF&S Light page as well.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 22:44:57 -0600
Subject: Deckplans

Rob,

You never did say if you use a computer program to aid you with your
deckplans.  If you (or others) have a suggestion for a good
shareware/freeware drawing program I'd appreciate it.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 23:08:22 -0600
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

On 06/28/96 at 07:25 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
said:

>This sounds right to me. But didn't someone say something about
>fighters  being the way to win a space war?  

I don't like the fighter model.  It's too Star Wars...too Battle Star
Glactica! <g>  

Why don't we make all the minor craft boats?  After all, we already
have the Ship's Boat and the System Defence Boat!  The "carriers"
become Boat Tenders.  The "fighters" become Missile Boats, Patrol
Torpedo Boats, Gun Boats.  Make the Boats bigger than fighters, but
smaller than SDB's with crews of 2 or 3: pilot, sensor ops,
gunner/missile ops.

It's a different model from ST or SW, and one just right for
Traveller.

>you  end up with rather large crews.  I'm glad it was decided to put
>the  additional rule in there where 100 and 200 ton craft can be run
>by 1  and 2 people, respectively.  Even if I had a group of 6 players
>(which I  don't), I think they'd dislike (and I know I would dislike)
>forcing them  to run a ship with as many (or more) NPC's than PC's.  

I still think nobody in their right mind will try to run a ship by
themselves..for long anyway.  <g> Generally though, I do like smaller
crews than the "rules" are giving us.  A group of 3 to 8 is the best
size for RPGing, and that's what this is all about. Right?

>To me, this is an important area where, in the fight of playability
>vs.  realism, playability just has to win out.

It will!  <G> Those of us that play will dump, add, rearrange, and
finagle until playability wins out.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: kstclair@cie-2.uoregon.edu (Kelly St. Clair)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 22:12:20 PDT
Subject: Leotians?

A friend of mine has a simple question for someone who knows more about
  the background than either of us:  who or what are "Leotians"?

(It has to do with a character submission for a PBeM...)

Thanks in advance.


------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 22:47:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Aging and super-characters

Joe mentioned that reducing aging effects can unbalance chargen, this is 
quite true.  There are, however, easy alternatives.

I don't like the threat of old age to be the limit on chargen.  I tend to 
limit folks to 5 or fewer terms and not worry much about aging.

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 07:55:12 PST
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> Remember all computers, reguardless of who designed them have one thing 
> in common.  Binary.

Nope. There are actually some base-10 computers! There are also a lot
of *analog* computers (they are making a comeback, but slowly). 

Multi-value logic (ie more than just 2 possible values) is at least a
hundred years old. And it has been applied to some computer systems.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 08:00:33 PST
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> > 1)  Computers do not /have/ to be binary.  In the Far Future, trinary
> >computers (or some other type) may be used in addition to binary 
> >computers.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand how a trinary system would work.  In computers 
> somethings either off "0" or its on "1" there's no middle of the road 
> when it comes to electricity.  Currently that is.

Currently, most logic in PCs uses 0v = 0, +5v = 1. They are dropping it
down to 3v on newer chips. But it *isn't* "on/off". These are just
arbitrarily defined "logic levels". RS-232 uses 0 = -25 to -5 v, and 1
= +5 to +25v.

So, for example, you could have -5v = -1, 0v = 0 and +5v = 1. In
fact there *are* setups where diferent voltage levels are used for
different values. They aren't used much because binary logic is
sufficient for most things.

But the logic systems in older telephone exchanges used things like
stepper relays to get 10 and 12 level logic.

> > 2) Even if all computers are based on a binary system, the archetecture
> >still has to be similar for a program to run.  Example:  take any
> >Wintel-compatible program.  It is in a binary, executable format.  Put 
> >this program on some other archetecture.  It will not run without an
> >interpreter/emulator.  The specific instructions the binary values cause
> >to occur vary depending on the microprocessor(s) used, among other
> >things.
 
> This is true but the basic building blocks of all that it binary.  Though 
> binary Virus could enter any computer.  Binary is merely the door.

Sorry, wrong answer. A given sequence of bits means different thingsin
different architectures. The sequence that is an "add" instruction on
one system might be a jump instruction on another.

> After getting in we have to remember that Virus is not merely a computer 
> program, it is a living, breathing, (okay so technically it doesn't 
> breath) entity, that never forgets and lives inside computers.  The 
> Virus, being rudamentally (that's not the right word is it?) intelligent, 
> finds an out of the way circut and sits there watching the data flow.  

Sorry, won't work. The whole point about different architectures being
a problem is that a program that will run on one architecture is utter
nonsense on another. 

As a *poor* example, consider the fact that English, Spanish, German,
etc can all be written using the same alphabet. That *doesn't* mean
that a document written in one language is readable by a speaker of the
others.

The virus is a *program*. As such, it consists of machine language
instructions. Different architectures use different values to encode
those instructions. So a program for one, can't run on another. It has
to be translated somehow (and it isn't always possible to translate
them!) 

So if you load the virus onto a computer that uses a different
instruction set, *at best* it would crash messily. Morelikely the CPU
would take one look at the code sequences and generate a "not an
executable program" error.

To use an analogu closer to the way real viruses work:

A virus is string of DNA or RNA. The particular values coded into the
DNA are instructions on how to create protiens, enzymes, and DNA. *But*
they only work if they get into a cell that uses the same codings! If a
cell uses different codings in it's DNA, the virus instructions would
result in the creation of some random chunk of chemicals, not a copy of
the virus. 

Luckiliy for real world viruses, there are almost *no* variations in
the coding scheme used by all known life forms. This is one of the
pieces of evidence that suggests that all organisms on earth are
related.

> Like a person sitting at a window watching traffic Virus soon figures out 
> which bundles of information are going where and presumably by following 
> these bundles figures out what they do.

But to *do* that, it has to be able to run on that system. So it can't
use that method to figure out how the system works!

> Keeping in mind that this entity was modified in the 57'th (?) century 
> I'm sure they'd have copies of all the major computer types and given how 
> valuable information is now a days I'm sure they'd have translation 
> programs written for every computer type know.  With this kind of 
> information at it's "finger tips" I'm sure that given enough time Virus 
> could subvert any computer.

Nope. There is still the *very* important distinction between "code"
and "data". There are a number of computer architectures where the
executable programs, and the data they work on don't even use the same
RAM, much less the same storage. 

As a *crude* example of this, I can send you a uuencoded program. But
the *only* way it'll ever get executed on your system is if you
uudecode it, and then *tell* your computer to run the resulting
program.

That's the killer. There is *no* computer virus in existence (and never
will be) that can infect a machine without the machine first
*executing* an infected file. *Reading* the file is perfectly safe.
I've got a disk with samples of several viruses that had infected
systems where I used to work. I can copy the disk safely. I can use a
editor to examine the files. Still no infection risk. It's only if I
*run* one of them that there's any chance of getting infected.

The one way that "the Virus" *could* propogate would be as follows:

Supposedly the IFF transponders all use the "living" chips, and exchange
data among themselves. Ok, that let's the virus jump from one
transponder to another.

To jump to any other system, it *can't* infect via the datalinks, as
they carry *data* not executable code. So, what it has to do is
"cannibalize" part of the transponder circuitry to create a mobile
subunit capable of *physically* following the data links.

It can do that because the circuitry in the transponder (part of it,
anyway) is alive, so it can "feed" on adjacent chips.

Once the subunit (call it a "motile") is created, it'll follow the
link. It'll probably patch into the link so that the data goes like
this:

	link <->motile<->link<->transponder

That lets it communicate back to the infected transponder, and keeps it
from needing much intelligence. Once it gets to the end, it'll leave a
small "relay" section patched in between the end of the link and the
link. That section will route data to the end of the link as if nothing
had happened, and route anything to or from the motile back to the
infected transponder.

The motile will have only a limited amount of raw materials an energy
to try to determine what sort of system is at the end of the link, and
how to take it over. It'd have to use logic probes to follow signals,
and then as it isolated sections of circuitry, splice in to replace
them. 

To translate this into PC terms, we'll have the transponder be the
modem. So the motile crawls through the cable to the serial port. Once
it gets there, the "relay" is exchanging the usual stuff with the
serial port, while only *part* of the cable is dedicated to that, and
the rest is handling the data between the motile and the modem (again,
the relay is making sure the data goes to the right place, so nothing
unusual seems to be happening).

The motile would use visual scanning and logic probes to follow the
signals from the port onto the serial card. If it encountered a chip it
recognized, it could patch itself in around it and emulate it until it
had a chance to "eat" the chip, and replace it with a dedicated emultor
that was much smaller and more efficient. 

If it didn't recognize it, it could strip off the packaging and
directly examine the chip. That would take longer, but it'd determine
*exactly* what the chip did. Then it could again replace it.

After replacing all the chips in an area, the virus would analyze the
functions, and be able to consolidate them (and probably simplify them,
as the average "stock" chip has a lot of possible actions that don't
ever get used in some circuits). That'd give more silicon to devote to
building a processor capable of running the virus on this end of the link.

More and more functions could be duplicated locally, meaning less and
less of the serial cable would be used for *controlling* and more for
comunication. Eventually, it'd be just a comm link again, linking two
copies of the virus.

If there's enough silicon on the card, the virus would have a copy of
itself there, with a small sub-processor emulating the
modem/serialcard. 

If not, the motile would move onto the motherboard (probably *several*
motiles). Trace the lines to the CPU, and other cards and start taking
over. 

The peripheral cards would get converted, the CPU/BIOS would get
examined to determine if the virus could be made to run on the
processor. If it could, great, it'd load itself, and eat the BIOS,
meanwhile emulating the old setup until it finshed taking over that
system. If the processor couldn't run the virus (too weak, or too
weird) the virus would try to convert it. 

It's possible that there would be processors the virus couldn't figure
out. Those it might just try to crash before "eating" them. 

Once it had the system converted, it'd be time to trace more
inter-system links.

Note that this is a *lot* different than yur model, and it is slower,
because the virus has to *physically move* a "tool" to the system it is
going to infect so that it can examine the system.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 11:24:32 PST
Subject: Re: 20 thoughts on virus

jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) writes:

> > > 2. Current computer Viruses (or is it Viri? :) can only take effect when
> > > operated on, but by definition, a sentient virus could decide when it too
> > > effect.
> > 
> >   Nope. A Virus is a computer program, doesn't matter if it's sentient or
> > not it's still just a computer program. Computer programs MUST be executed
> > - there is *NO* other way.
> 
> By *today's* standards, yes.  But what the hell is holographically-linked
> controls?  And synaptic-linked computers?  You can't explain how things will
> work 3,000 years from now with this kind of techno-babble based on today's
> assumptions.

By *any* standards. This is not something subject to argument or
improvement like scientific theories. This is a matter of *definition*.
2+2=4 regardless of how far in the future you are. Likewise, a computer
virus is a program, and as such, the code making it up *must* be
executed to take effect.

> >   I'm sentient, yet I must still obey all the rules of computer
> > programming when operating a computer. I fail to see what sentience has to
> > do with this.
> 
> I would imagine it would have something to do with the fact that Virus occupi
> a computer like we occupy 3D space.  You, yourself, are talking about
> manipulating the goings-on inside a computer using an alpha-numeric keyboard 
> little else.  *Your* consciousness is not imposed on that computer.

Even granting your point (which I don't) there's a *huge* hole in your
logic. Sure the virus may be sentient, and thus able to change the way
the system it is running on works (about as likely as your mind being
able to change the way your brain works). But the system that the virus
is trying to infect *isn't* sentient! Regardless of what it may be able
to do once the virus is running on it, it can only behave according to
its programming until the virus is running on it.

So any explanation of how the virus infects a system has to explain how
the system can be changedto allow the virus *before* the virus is
loaded. (You can run C64 programs on a PC if you load an emulator, but
the c-64 program can't load the emulator on the PC, the PC has to do
that in accordance with it's current programming)

> > > 12. The virus would learn that it could only infect a similar computer 
> > > structure through communications and sensors (which would be run through
> > > computers or else why to you use a computer multiplier on the electronics
> > > crew figures).  
> > 
> >   Nope. See my discussion with Derek - sensors make absolutely NO sense as
> > vectors. Any attempt to try and rationlize this is doomed.
>            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> If you start talking like that, you'll have to explain everything else the
> Traveller universe takes for granted.
You fail to understand the *critical* difference between data inputs
and programming inputs. Unless a computer is SPECIFICALLY TOLD "this is
to be loaded and executed" it won't execute data being fed to it via an
input. It may display it, analyze it, or ignore it, depending on what
the current program tells it to do, but it won't *run* it. 

For sensor data to be a way to infect the system, the computer would
already have to have been told to treat the incoming data as a program.
And there is *no* reason for anyone to set the computer up that way, in
fact there are a tremendous number of reasons *not* to.  Mostly to
prevent loading a virus that could take over the sensor system! Unless
you want to claim that four thousand years of experience with computers
has somehow made the folks designing and programming them *less* able
to see the vulnerabilities than we can, it just doesn't fly. 

In case you were unaware, computer viruses were postulated in the early
60s. And some of the other ways that security can be breached that were
described in the early 70s are far beyond anything anyone has tried.
Yet military, government, and even large business computer requirements
are designed to protect against these.

> Perhaps you'd like to take a crack at
> explaining Gravitics or Psionics using today's theories?  They've  been
> Traveller 'canon' since day-one.

Hate to tell you this, but gravitics is *not* that far outside current
theory. And we've pointed out things that ould be a problem with
gravitics, though mostly it isn't a problems.

Psionics is not explainable. More or less by definition. :-)

> Perhaps Virus is minutely psionic?

They don't say it is. If they did, we wouldn't be making the objections
we do. 

> "This type of arguement can be used to explain almost everything in the
> Traveller universe.  It is only when this information falls within someone's
> area of expertise when things start to fall apart (you obviously know a great
> deal about computers).

One *doesn't* have to know a great deal about computers. One merely has
to know the basic principles behind them.

FTL is pretty much a given in SF, and is necessary to make interstellar
travel practical for a game. Besides, there are *several* different
ways it could be accomplished in theory.

Antigravity is the same. Its a staple of SF, and theory doesn't *forbid
it, in fact there are some ways to do it that we *know* would work, we
just can't *do* it (engineering problem :-)

Also, the effects of both of the above are easily figured. Ditto for
reactionless drives, though as has been pointed out, the drives in
Traveller *don't* bother to try to work right, and thus we run into
problems in the game *because* they didn't work things through.

Psionics is a common SF theme, and at least the Traveller rules try to
be both limited and consistent.

Now we get to the computers and Virus bit. Computers are based on
*logic*. And most of the rules they are based on have been studied for
several thousand years! We've refined things a bit, and explored the
ins and outs, but the actual rules of logic are about as fixed as the
rules of geometry. 

Sure, they may have hardware we can't conceive of in the 57th century.
But the rules the *programs* have to follow won't be any different.
Logic is logic. How you *implement* a device to perform logical
operations doesn't affect the results of those operations (except that
if you don't do it right, the answers will be wrong).

Heck, the principles of computer programming are well over 100 years
old.  Look up "Babbage". He designed a *mechanical* computer. If it
hadn't been beyond the machining technology of the day (but only *just*
beyond), he'd have had something at least as good as Enaic. And guess
what? The principles governing its operation aren't all that different
from those governing current systems.

You see, ever since Galileo, things have been running in a manner that
most people still don't understand. We don't know everything, but we
*do* know that we know things for certain inside certain limits. If we
discover anything unexpected, it will have to be something such that
under "normal" conditions it has no effects. So while we can't know
what may be discovered, we *can* know that what we currently know still
applies in the areas we've tested things. (just like Newtonian physics
works just fine until you get close to light speed).


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 12:20:40 PST
Subject: Re: Virus, Traveller, Reality

Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca> writes:

> Some folks have written some fairly coherent things on the "impossibilty" of
> a TNE style virus. Yup, I think you're right.
> 
> On the other hand, according to my university physics (of which I still
> retain a few shreds), FTL travel is impossible;

Better tell that to all the folks publishing papers on it. FTL is *not*
impossible. It just has to meet certain conditions. Check out the
various papers on wormholes, the papers on "closed timelike curves" (ie
time travel, which is interchangeable with FTL), and things like
Alucubierre's warp drive. 

We don't know *how* to create the effects (in most cases), but theory
does show that the effects don't break anything (expect perhaps casuality).

> Any explanation we come up
> with for contragravity is probably not going to survive a barrage of
> thermodynamics;

Why? It's rather easy to work out the energy requirements, and they are
*much* less than what is required.

> and "reactionless thrusters" -- give me strength.

True, but only to the extent that their properties are going to be a
lot different than the way they are described.

> Agrueing over which hook you're willing to suspend your personal disbeleaf
> on to save the plausability of projections of a future history set 3000
> years into the it-aint-gonna-happen-that-way from now can get to be a bit
> much after a while.

The thing here is this. FTL doesn't actually break *anything*. There
are some physicists who don't like the consequences of it being
possible, there are others who don't really see a problem.

Antigravity/contragravity, it still doesn't break theory, it's just
that we can't figure out ways to do it without some exotic materials.
:-) 

Reactionless drives, ok, we bend *one* law a bit. :-)

The virus requires a *number* of things which are all very unlikely.
Things like extreme stupidity in program, OS, and system design. 

See my message where I describe how something like the virus *could*
work, and not the rather important differences between how it is
described as working. (no more cases of data being treated as code, no
more being able to load and run an executable for one architecture on a
different one without knowing in advance *which* architecture you are
loading on, etc).

> Maybe some new Einstein will reconcile FTL and relativity.

No need. No conflict. (Seriously!)

> Maybe some quantum gravity genious will unify electro-magnatism and gravity.

Make that unify the electroweak force and gravity. And as I noted,
using both Newtonian physics and Einsteinian physics, there are several
ways of manipluating gravity.

> Maybe the
> Third Imperium and all its neighbours are dumb-ass stupid enough to REGULATE
> one uniform, cross application, cross technology computing architecture JUST
> TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR THE VIRUS TO WORK. Who the f*** knows?

They'd also have to require that it treat sensor data as program code. :-)


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #182
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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 29 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 183

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Kilo Litres
         2. Re: Overexplaining technology
         3. Re: Virus Issues
         4. Re: Virus Complaints
         5. Re: Aging
         6. Re: Flames and Endless debates
         7. Re: Virus Complaints
         8. Re: Imperial funding
         9. Re: Virus by Email
        10. Re: Overexplaining technology
        11. Re: Frivolous campaign idea: request for suggestions/ideas
        12. Re: Imperial citizens and taxes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 15:00:40 PST
Subject: Re: Kilo Litres

anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman) writes:

> Terra   1E12    T       I can't remember the orders for Hekto, Fempto, Pico,
> Giga    1E9     G       nano, micro, or anything above terra. (I don't use
> Mega    1E6     M       those measures enough)
> Kilo    1E3     K       Also, note that computer memory is close, but not
> --      1e0             quite on the same scales, as in bytes, 1 Kb=1024b,
> Deci    1E-1    d       1Mb=1024 Kb, 1 GB= 1024 MB, and 1 Tb= 1024 Gb...
> Centi   1E-2    c       all are powers of 8 (and 2...)
> Milli   1E-3    m

Tera, not terra. Also hecto, not hekto, femto, not fempto. :-)

Tera    1E12    T
Giga    1E9     G
Mega    1E6     M
Kilo    1E3     K
hecto	1e2	
deka	1e1
- --      1e0
Deci    1E-1    d
Centi   1E-2    c
Milli   1E-3    m
micro	1e-6	(lowercase mu)
nano    1e-9    n
pico    1e-12   p

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 17:24:51 PST
Subject: Re: Overexplaining technology

Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> writes:

> On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Gerald S. Williams wrote:
> 
> > The same can be said for any currently unavailable technology. As
> > soon as you try to explain it, someone is likely to debate the
> > point. It may also be proven impossible as soon as you go to print.
> > Worse, it may introduce inconsistencies in the campaign universe
> > since you could not possibly think through all of the consequences.
> 
> 	Right.  If we knew how J-drive (or any of the other Traveller 
> technologies) worked, we'd make them /now/ and be wealthy beyond our 
> wildest dreams. :)  

Wanna bet? I can show you designs for gravity catapults, anti-grav
units, and several other such things. The principles are *well*
understood. We just can't *build* them. 

Ditto for a lot of proposed nanotech. The theory is well understood.
Designs can be drawn up. It's just that we don't have the *engineering*
capability.

Computers were designed in the 1800s. They just didn't have the ability
to machine the parts required (these were mechanical systems). 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 13:47:30 PST
Subject: Re: Virus Issues

Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> writes:

> I think the above is the key.  I know the physicist's among us have a
> serious problem with the reactionless thrusters.

Some. But not a major problem, we'd just tweak the rules a bit.

> I would guess the
> psychologist's among us (and others who study human nature) find the idea
> that Psionics can be supressed (with human curiosity what it is) somewhat
> difficult.

Huh? The Psionic suppressions are in the same league as various
religious and racial suppressions. They are no more (or less) possible
than the Inquistion, or other things in history.

> The Economists and Financeurs among us (myself included) have
> trouble reconciling the Imperial government structure and such with the
> existing trade practices in the Imperium.

The trade rules are changeable.

>  The folks who study FTL potential
> (sorry, I don't know what you guys are called) find the Jump drive theory
> crazy.

Physicists again. And while jump doesn't sound likely, FTL is *not* a
settled matter in the phsyics community.

> The military and ex-military among us find the combat rules obscene.

Even just plain old gun owners wonder about firearms damage.

> The major difference is that in every other incarnation of traveller, all of
> the above ideas and technology (reactionless Thrusters, Psionics, Economic
> rules, Jump Drive, and Combat Rules) are all included.  The folks who are
> specialists in these other areas have to deal with the same difficulties the
> Computer Specialists are forced to deal with concerning Virus.  The
> difference is that the folks in the other fields can't just toss out the
> version that includes the part of the background or rules that disagrees
> with currently known technology because they exist in all previous versions.

Sorry. Wrong answer. The reactionless drive can be *ignored* (make it a
reaction drive of some sort) with next to no effect on the game. The
Psionic suppression has little effect on the game, though it has some
effect on the background. You can drop psionics from the game and most
players wouldn't notice. FTL is *not* that big a deal. As for the trade
rules, notice the number of cariants floating around? They are *not*
critical to the background. There are lots of variant combat rules
around too. Again, no real effect on the background.

Now, consider the virus. Not only is it much farther "out of line" than
any of the item you mention (each of them is basicaly "a" problem, the
virus is *at least* 4) but it is *integral* to the background.

> Let's see if we can summarize the arguements:
> 
>   ANTI-VIRUS SIDE - Virus is just a program that must be executed before it
> can even begin to take control of a computer system.

Right.

> The computer systems
> within the Imperium (possibly) and without the Imperium (definitely) will be
> different and Virus could not easily transfer itself to another system.

Right.

> The
> idea that Virus can be transported through sensors and communications and
> (possibly) even transponders which are just data is ludicrous.

You've lumped several things together that are *not* the same. 

It *is* ludicrous to have the Virus use sensors as a means of
infecting. But it is *possible* (though unlikely) that comm links could
transmit it. It depends on the nature of the link, and other factors
(you have a *chance* of infecting my computer through my modem, but not
thru my FM radio or my cable TV box!). 

The transponders are a weird case. In the real world a transponder is a
sensor (radar pulse detector) coupled to a specialized transmitter.
When it gets the right sort of radar pulse ("gets interrogated") it
responds by echoing back the pulse (greatly increasing the image on the
radar screen) and tacking on an IFF code to identify itself. A *very*
dumb piece of equipment. (they aren't even hooked up to anything else
on board except the radar antenna)

In TNE, they say that the transponders use the Cymbelline chips, and
"chatter" back and forth. So I'd have to give you the ability for them
to be infected.

>   PRO-VIRUS SIDE -  Two things must be taken into consideration as the basis
> for considering Virus.  1. Virus is alive and makes its own choices, and
> therefore doesn't need to be activated to begin to take control of a
> computer. It can activate itself.

If it isn't activated, then it isn't alive! It has to be alive to do
anything. It's in "suspended animation" until it is activated by the
receiving computer. Its "life processes" consist of instructions being
executed by the computer. So it isn't alive unless it is being
executed. If it isn't being executed, then it's like a person in a low
berth, all biological processes are stopped.

I think you folks need to re-think this point.

>  2. We are discussing computers that are
> so far ahead of our technology that we can't even begin to comprehend how or
> even why they work much less how a virus will interact with them.

Again I disagree. For the simple fact that while we may not understand
how the *hardware* works, it is still going to be performing a series
of simple logical operations. The software is just going to be a set of
logical instructions. Don't confuse the hardware operations with the
*logical* operations.  And don't confuse the high level language
statements with the logical operations they get translated into for the
hardware.

The rules for the simple logical operations were set down by Charles
Babbage and Ada Lovelace more than 100 years ago. And the rules of
logic they are based on go back more than 2000 years.

Babbage wouldn't understand current computer languages. But they *all(
get translated into machine code, which is machine specific encodings
for the basic logical operations of *all* computers (add, subtract,
and, or, move data, compare data, branch, etc). And he'd understand
those operations with no trouble, because he invented most of them.
Some machines have codes that combine a number of the operations into
one code, but it'd still be easy to understand. Plus, the trend is
towards systems that only use the simple instructions.

>   FINAL POINT - One other point needs to be considered, and that is that the
> Transponders required by the Imperium to be on any ship that travelled
> within its borders were small boxes that contained the Virus "chips."  These
> systems were required to be intergrated with the computer systems on board
> the ship.  This "Transponder suite" is supposed to have been the main access
> point of the Virus.

Which I grant you (see above)

To work on any other system, the virus either needs that system to have
a built-in "back door" or it needs a *physical* manifestation that can
examine the target system and makes changes. 

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 13:00:18 PST
Subject: Re: Virus Complaints

mab@sdc1.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Mystic Musk Ox) writes:

> Sorry, I started to quote this, then lost exactly who said it:
> 
> > If we follow the current trends in computing, we should see CPUs 
> > embedded in everything and the distinction between code and data
> > will break down - code will be transmitted to dynamically
> > change the behaviour of devices, etc.
> 
> Hm, there are already languages that do not have any distinction
> between code and data. Some years ago I was involved in writing
> some expert systems in PROLOG, which originated as a logic
> programming language. It is interpreted, and can 'assert' or
> 'retract' new logical clauses as it operates. It doesn't care
> whether they are code or data, and can use the same line of
> code as either, if it wishes. It also doesn't care what order
> the instructions appear in the program file...

Lisp is even worse, I'm told. 

However, be aware that most systems you see are von Neuman machines.
Not all computers are. And the interchangeability of code and data is
one of the characteristics of von Neumann systems. 

Systems have been built where the code and data are *totally* seperate.
They don't share the same address space. Self-modifyng code is
*impossible*. 

These are mostly research systems for investigating aspects of computer
theory. But given some trends in the rate at which viruses spread, and
the vulnerability of networked systems to breakins, they could become a
major factor in future systems.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 14:39:54 PST
Subject: Re: Aging

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) writes:

> Actually, the maximum life span hasn't really changed that much.  The
> _average_ life span has been increasing, as few people die of diseases and
> accidents.  Also, quality-of-life has increased for the elderly.  But there
> is evidence that we are approaching a 'built-in' limit.  (Of course, limits
> can be broken, which is what anagathics do.)

I think the current guess is that 120 is a probable max lifespan.

> Statistics are tricky things.  There is a country in Africa where the average
> lifespan is 15.  If you survive your first two years, though, you will
> probably life to be 60 -- they just have a horrendous childhood mortality
> rate.  (War, protein starvation, famine, endemic diseases...)

This is a good example of the difference between mean, mode, and
median. The "average" is the mean. The mode is the most common value,
in your above case I suspect that it is either in the below 2 range, or
the over 60 range. And the median is the value you get if you sort the
data into order, and then look at the middle of the list. 

In a "normal distribution" all three are the same. In real data, you
can get multiple modes (I've seen data where the curve was smooth, but
had *three* "humps"), and the median can be all over the place.

This is why the standard deviation is useful. 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 13:07:35 PST
Subject: Re: Flames and Endless debates

"Ross Coburn" <ross@odyssee.net> writes:

> We are dealing with (fictional) 50th-century technology.  Not only does
> this make possible things we can only imagine at present, it (in many
> cases) likely makes things we _cannot_ imagine commonplace.  While that'd
> be awfully hard to reproduce in a game that is, after all, a work of the
> imagination, please consider the 'advances' mankind has made in just about
> every field of understanding over the course of the last thirty centuries. 
> We have essentially completely rewritten every field of scientific
> endeavour, in the process invalidating much or all previous thoughts on the
> subject. It is likely that another such period will do the same. 

Alas, while this view is widespread, it simply is not true. Galileo
invalidated Aristotle. No physics since then have been invalidated.
Instead, they've been shown to be special cases. 

Why? Because with Galileo, we changed the way we determined "truth". We
adopted the scientific method. So the process of learning is:
1. make observations/perform experiments
2. come up with hypothesis that explains #1 and that can be tested
3. test hypothesis, if it fails, go back to 2.
4. hypothesis becomes theory after it is confirmed sufficiently.
5. go back to 1 looking for data not covered by theory.

What this means is that the theories are based on how the universe
actually works. When we find something new, it's because we are making
observations of things outside the previous range of observables. Thus,
for example, we found that the speed of light didn't vary with the
earth's movement thru space. That led to special relativity. But it did
*not* invalidate Newton! It just meant that you had to add some
corrections to Newton when you got near the speed of light.

Quantum effects require corrections when dealing with very small
things, again, at normal scale they are not applicable, Newton does fine.

So we won't have "completely rewritten" things. We'll have discovered
new *exceptions* to the rules, but those exceptions will only apply in
"special" circumstances.

So we could discover contragravity, or even develop a reactionless
drive. But they'd still be subject to the laws we know except for
whatever special cases make them work. And tend to not involve
violating things like conservation of mass/energy (which actually turns out
to be the same thing as saying "the laws of physics are indepenedent of
where or when you are in the universe")

> Furthermore, when you consider the snowballing of technological advancement
> in recent decades and postulate a similar rate of advancement (for even a
> significant fraction of the time frame involved), and it is evident that
> making claims based on current thinking (in _any_ field) is pretty useless.

Technology is not science. Engineers will come up with stuff we
couldn't think of. It'll still follow the laws of physics, even if they
are a bit revised.

> the exclusion of other explanations.  We accept Jump Drives, do we not?  We
> do so because our current understanding of the laws of Physics provides no
> 'feasible' alternative, and without it the game (as it stands) would be
> unplayable.

As noted *many* times before, FTL is *not* disallowed by current
theory. In fact, that's one of the reasons some physicists get so vocal
about it. They don't *like* the fact that theory doesn't say "you can't
do that". 

> Please consider this same suspension of disbelief (or at least tolerance of
> it in others) the next time you get the urge to flame someone, or defend a
> point of view unto death in the name of 'science'.

Please consider that science is more than a little different than other
means of learning. And that trying to ignore it just because it is
inconvenient tends to come back and bite you. :-)

I don't object to Psionics, even though they are hardly scientific. And
while I point out that "reactionless" drives really would have to have
limits we don't see, I don't really expect folks to play them that way
(though it would be nice :-)

But in *any* sort of sf, "hard" or "soft", there is an unwritten rule
that needs to be kept in mind. It's ok to violate scientific law AS
LONG AS YOU KNOW YOU ARE. It's also recommended that you try to
minimize the violations.

Nobody realized that thruster plates violated conservation of energy,
and a bunch of other laws. The result was the planetkiller ship. 

Nobody listened when it was pointed out that the Virus just plain
couldn't *do* all the things it was supposed to. So we have something
that does things that a bright 12 year-old will go "Say what?!" about.

I agree that flaming is not good. But it's hard to resist when someone
posts something that is about as silly as "water burns", and does so
*loudly*, and as a response to a post that was reasonable.

Folks, nobody expects you to be an expert at everything. But please try
to realize that an *uninformed* opinion about anything technical is
not terribly likely to be right. If someone says something can't be
done, *don't* get in their face about it. If you are an expert, point
out the error politely. If you aren't, and they might be, consider that
you *could* be wrong. And ask them if there's a way to do what you want
that *will* work. Or at least doesn't do *quite* as much violence to
the laws of nature. :-)

But arguing that we don't know anything compare to the future is just
plain silly. They will know *more*, but what we know will be part of
what they know.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 12:42:04 PST
Subject: Re: Virus Complaints

Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com> writes:

> > From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
> > Subject: Re: Virus by Email
> > 
> >   <sigh> That still doesn't explain how sensors can accept virii. In order
> > to enter, there has to be some way for code to be transferred from the
> > sensors to the CPU, and the CPU has to be told to execute this code. 
> > SENSORS DO NOT ACCEPT *****CODE***** THEREFOR THEY DO NOT ACCEPT VIRII. Is
> > that clear enough for you yet??
> 
> Um, no, not for me at least. Who says that sensors don't accept code?
> Nortel is planning a new phone set that will be dynamically 
> reconfigurable by having it able to accept Java code d/loaded over the 
> phone line. There's a LCD display attatched, so it can be programmed
> to let you pay bills, buy tickets for sporting events, etc.
> 
> So, if phones can do it, why not sensors?
> 
> If we follow the current trends in computing, we should see CPUs 
> embedded in everything and the distinction between code and data
> will break down - code will be transmitted to dynamically
> change the behaviour of devices, etc.
> 
> For instance, in CT you can have Auto-Gunnery (what was that
> program called?) 1 all the way to 6. I don't imagine
> that the gunnery station would be totally dumb, accepting 
> control commands from a big mainframe (which is basically
> how they describe it in CT, but), instead the main computer
> would d/load a new gunnery program to the turret.

You are missing the point. There's a difference between a *sensor* and
a comm link. A comm link can be transmitting data or code. Thus the
fancy phone you mention. Ditto for the gunnery turret.

Now, let's consider your "computers embedded in everything" idea. Say a
fancy home control system that links the lights, phone, appliances,
security system, heat airconditioning, the works.

I'd accept someone invading it via the telephone, or even the cable tV
(assuming it has a cable link for both tv/radio *and* net linking). But
I refuse to believe that it can be taken over by varying the light
level at the photocell in the security sytem (the one used to determine
if it's dark enough to turn on the security lights) or by varying the
temperature at the thermal sensors for the heating/cooling system!

A sensor is a device that *measures* something, and reports the
measurement. A sensor reports data. Period. It is not and never would
be used as a means of inputting program code. For one thing, encoding
the program so it could be *fed* to most sensors would be a major
hassle. Take that photcell for example, it *may* be capable of
reporting more than just light/dark. But if so, what is the *range* of
brightness it can sense, and what is the *sensitivity* (ie how many
levels does it divide that range into). And what is the response time
(ie how fast can it register changes).

The range determines the range of outputs you have to deal with. The
sensitivity determines how much info you can cram into one output. And
the response time determines how fast you can send. 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 17:44:30 PST
Subject: Re: Imperial funding

Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> writes:

> On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Steven Bonneville wrote:
> 
> > The old version of _Striker_ notes that planets pay something like 30% of
> > their local military budget to the Imperium to support the Imperial 
> > military.  This comes to about one percent of gross planetary product in
> > most cases.  Based on separate calculations by Wildstar and myself, this
> > part of the budget alone is about TCr 2000 to 5000 annually.  This figure
> > would be split among the salaries, ships, operating equipment, supplies, 
> > and facilities all the Imperial armed forces, and probably includes 
> > "colonial" subsector reserves raised by the dukes as well.
> 
> Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter.  Taxation is based on the 
> military spending of the planet in question.  

Re-read the above. 30% of the local miltary budget is the assesment for
the Imperial *military*. Nothing is said about any other taxes.

> What if the planet decides not to have a military?  Or to operate only a 
> tiny military?  Presumably, the Imperium's ships are there to protect 
> against interstellar conquest at least to some degree.  In other words, 
> how much military spending is considered enough to the Imperium?  How do 
> they decide?

Perhaps they are a bit slower to respond to you if you don't pay much?

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 16:46:13 PST
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com> writes:

> I didnt like Virus much for various reasons, but flaming it by equating it
> with a *computer program* is not correct.  It is/was/will be a life form
> that happens to be able to interface with electronic devices, and with the
> intelligence to figure out how to do it.

No. It is a lifeform (intelligence) whose *body* is a computer, and
whose mind is a program.

The problems are due to people not stopping to think that the virus can
no more exist without hardware than we can exist without our bodies.

At some future data it may be possible to "download" your
mind/personality/whatever and upload it into a new body. But the body
(be it organic or computer) is required for the mind to function.
The virus just does this naturally.

Please don't drag soul or spirit into it, that just makes things
messier, and I can still point out that pure soul/spirit doesn't have
much effect on things. :-)


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 16:52:34 PST
Subject: Re: Overexplaining technology

"Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com> writes:

> The same can be said for any currently unavailable technology. As
> soon as you try to explain it, someone is likely to debate the
> point. It may also be proven impossible as soon as you go to print.
> Worse, it may introduce inconsistencies in the campaign universe
> since you could not possibly think through all of the consequences.

Which is why I go for the simple "explanation" of "it's this big, takes
thus-and-so amount of power, and does this". You can add in some fluff
about it requires some special material to work if you want to get
fancy. 

> Thus, for things like jump-drive, contra-grav/thrusters, and Virus,
> the best approach is to explain them as little as possible. Better
> yet, leave room for alternative explanations about how they work.

The trick is that you have to make sure that they are consistent with
what is already known about the universe. Because that is *not* going
to change. It's going to get added to, and have qualifiers added to
statements, but it'll still be true. And it'll have the advantage that
nobody in the current time can figure out a way to use it to screw up
the universe. :-)

Plus, you can use *current* knowledge to get a feel for what you can
do. We may not know how to cram a 1 gigawatt power source into a
fountain pen, but we can *certainly* figure out lots of things to do
with it. And if we know the power requirements. size and mass of the
other frammistats in the game, we can figure out how to use it with
them. 




Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 15:28:08 PST
Subject: Re: Frivolous campaign idea: request for suggestions/ideas

"Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu> writes:

> I am planning to run a frivilous campaign based on the 1970's cartoon
> "Josie and the Pussycats".

It *started* as a comic book. And may still survive that way. Check
with your local comics dealer. It was published by the same folks who
published all the "Archie" comics.

> Valarie : The bass player and techie.  The only one other
> than Josie who isn't flighty (at least not all the time) .  Also the only
> one who can fix anything.  She has what equates to a Jack-of-all-trades in
> electronic, computer and mechanical items.  To me this means she has about
> a 1-in-6 shot (once) at fixing whatever is wrong with the ship, after
> which she will identify a part or ability which the group needs to find
> (wherever they happen to be) to fix it "So we can finally get home!".
> Significantly, Valerie was the only Hanna-Barbera African-American
> character I can remember (aside from Uhura on the Star Trek cartoon).

She was black in the comic book. They were stuck with her. :-)

Also, the comic was set here on earth, at least the issues I saw. So
were the early tv episodes.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 00:06:11 -0800
Subject: Re: Imperial citizens and taxes

On 28 Jun 96 at 13:15, Derek Stanley spewed:

> > You know it's funny but Dulinor's ideas of massive social reform are 
> plainly evident in the New Era.  Look at the Regency Source Book and Path 
> of Tears.  Both of these states are incredibly different from the origial 
> Imperial ideal and both allow their member worlds a much greater say in 
> the future of the state.  In a way, inspite of everything, Dulinor's 
> idea's won.

Frankly, it would be very surprising if the survivors of Civil War, 
Hard Times, and Virus, wanted to be associated with the Imperium in 
any way...certainly not in form of government.

The single biggest handicap for the Regency is going to be convincing 
people in the coreward regions of the Imperium that they have truly 
changed...that they aren't just the Imperium in new clothes...  If 
unburdened of this handicap, they'd probably steamroll the RC...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #183
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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 29 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 184

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. school lunches
         2. Re: Margret **WARNING:  SPOILER**
         3. Death and taxes
         4. Re: No Fun
         5. Operating a Cargo Ship
         6. Size of Naval Vessels
         7. Re: Nukes in Space.....
         8. Solomani and the RC
         9. Re: Aging and super-characters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 00:10:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: school lunches

>From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
>Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 21:00:38 -0500
>Subject: Imperial Taxes

>ship called the Children of the Marches which was supposedly 
>funded by the schoolkids in the Spinward Marches donating 
>.25CR of their lunch money to the construction.  

>So in the 57th Century, they still have school lunches.  Go Figure.

In the 57th Century, they still have kids and they still have cultures.
Kids still need to be acculturated.  Schools can acculturate kids relatively
cheaply.  So kids will still go to school.  They'll still spend all day
there (if only so that their parents can have some freedom from them), so
they'll still need to eat.  Therefore they'll still have school lunches.

What bothered me is the concept of a sector-wide school lunch program.
That's the opposite of the hands-off approach normally taken by interstellar
governmental levels in the Imperium.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 00:06:10 -0800
Subject: Re: Margret **WARNING:  SPOILER**

On 28 Jun 96 at 13:10, Derek Stanley spewed:

> Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> > 
> > There are some things to dislike about Margaret as well...

> > the welfare of her citizens.  There are veiled references to a slave
> > trade going on within Margaret's domain, apparently with Margaret's
> > knowledge, if not necessarily with her blessing.  In Arrival
> > Vengeance, which is really about as close a look at the personality
> > of several of the factions as we will find, she is portrayed as
> > rather cold, distant, and slightly arrogant.
> 
> I got the Impression from Rebellion, I've never seen Hard-Times and I've 
> never read Arrival Vengence, that Margaret is well intentioned but really 
> has no idea as to how to be a real ruler of people.  She's a buisness 
> woman, not a polititian and as such she tends to suffer for it.
> 
> I had no idea about a slave trade going on in Delphi.  Does the Arrival 
> Vengence incident take place after the birth of the twins and her 
> subsequent proclamation by Iris or before.  Okay, Strephon refrences 

SMALL SPOILER AHEAD:

The twins are definitely referenced in the game, so yes they are 
alive.  The scenario historically takes place around 1125, and the 
twins are shown as being 5 years old.  1 of them is the daughter of 
Strephon, by artificial insemination, BTW...

The general impression left by Arrival Vengeance is that she is an 
effective administrator, but not much of a people person.  Strephon 
(who is the real Strephon, in case it was not apparent from Survival 
Margin) is cast as a tragic figure, while Duke Craig, & Norris, are 
revered in the game...

Actually, if you want my opinion, they were all scum, including 
Dulinor.  Anyone who could willingly sentence billions to die out of 
personal gain (and in the end, that's all any of them with the 
exception of Norris & Craig), deserves little respect...

> This is also after she's destroyed the Vermine (sp).  This is at the 
> point where Margret started to become more and more like many of the 
> other factions, self interested in her own claim to the throne rather 
> than in her peoples well being.

I would say that this period probably started around 1120, when it 
became apparent that there would be no more united 3rd 
Imperium...after that it was basically a Lebanon 
situation...guerrillas killing each other for no real purpose...

> Craig and Norris are the only one's, well lets lump Brzk in here to but 
> he's dead by this point, who aren't after the throne whole heartedly.  
> They're more interested in the welfare of their people than carving out 
> as much territory for themselves as they can.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 00:10:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Death and taxes

>Which brings up something I've been wondering for quite some time.  Is 
>there any mention anywhere in all the materials for Traveller of how the 
>Imperium makes money?  What sort of taxes do they levy?  I'd imagine 
>they'd at least levy some sort of trade tax, since that's the activity 
>they seem most interested in.  If so, then your reason #3 would be VERY 
>important to them indeed.  

Those excessive starport berthing fees and the outrageous price of refined
fuel no doubt contribute to Imperial coffers.  Likewise, the common carrier
Cr1000 per ton must reflect a tax already subtracted for play transparency.
(Let's see, there's 40 tons of cargo -- roll -- heavy equipment parts,
destined for Forboldn.  The rate is C1064 per ton, but we pay the Cr64 to
the port authority as Imperial tax, so we get Cr1000 per ton....).

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 00:34:10 -0800
Subject: Re: No Fun

On 28 Jun 96 at 18:22, Larry Hadley spewed:

> On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> > On 06/27/96 at 02:12 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> > said:
> > 
> > >We must have run out of Threads That Wouldn't Die. :)
> > 
> > Nah, everybody's just reloading their guns. <g>
> 
>   Or <gasp> working! ;->

Work is for people who can't handle Traveller... ;-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:39:37 -0500
Subject: Operating a Cargo Ship

Well, with many thanks to Dave Golden and the fine people of GDW-beta who
have completed the SSDS/QSDS.  I downloaded their work, printed it out,
and started to design a ship for an adventure this Sunday.  The ship
starts out as a 2000Td bulk cargo carrier.  I will post its high points,
and try and do a USP for it.  So a drum roll please....

Bulk Freighter 2000 tons ( I know Peter Miller did this also)

Tons 2000 SL Box		Volume 28,000m^3	MCr 320 (ballpark)
Crew 14			Pass 0/0			Low 0
Cargo 1400		Controls Std/Bridge	TL-14

09 Size Code		02 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating	01 G-Rating/Maneuver Drive
00 Battery - 0,0,0,0	01 Power Plant Rating
00 Battery - 0,0,0,0	404/S/R Fuel Rating
00 Battery - 0,0,0,0	02(70) Sandcasters
			02 Armour	16 Structure

OK, that's the ship.  It carries 1400 tons of cargo, has power and tonnage
set aside for an MFD, including a bridge station.  It has four empty
sockets for weapons, and has 15Mw of power for 4 TL-14 Laser turrets.  It
uses the High Automation optional rules to get the crew down, but I did
not have the computer table to reduce the crew even more.  The crew
breakdown is as follows, Command 2 (Captain, 1st Officer), Maneuver 2
(Pilot, Astrogator), Electronics 1, Steward/Maintenance/Medical 1, Gunnery
3, and Engineering 5.  The accommodations are as follows: 1 Large
Stateroom (Captain), 2 Small Staterooms (1st Officer, Pilot, Astrogator,
Chief Engineer), and 12 Bunks.  It has fuel scoops, and can purify fuel in
48 hours.  One gunner can be eliminated if no weaponry is used.  It also
has docking rings for two 90 ton craft (but no craft are carried, they are
just for cargo operations).

The purpose of this design is to simulate a small bulk carrier for a large
freight line.  I did this to see if it was economically feasible to
operate using the current rules, and make money.  I did operational
calculations for both a mortgage and an outright purchase (more likely for
a large company). 

Operating Expenses (est)
ID			Month (CR)		Year (MCr)
Salaries			18,000			.216
Life Support		56,000			.7
Annual Maintenance	26,667			.320
Berthing			2,000			.025
Mortgage		1,333,333		16
Total			1,436,000		17.261

Revenues
100% Capacity		2,800,000		35
90%			2,520,000		31.5
80%			2,240,000		28
70%			1,960,000		24.5
60%			1,680,000		21
50%			1,400,000		17.5
40%			1,120,000		14
30%			840,000			10.5
20%			560,000			7
10%			280,000			3.5
0%			0			0

As can be seen, a 50% cargo capacity will barely pay for the ship at
1000Cr per ton.  Following is a profit margin breakdown

Profit/(Loss)		Month (2 trips)		Year
100% Capacity		1,364,000		17,739
90%			1,084,000		14.239
80%			804,000			10.739
70%			524,000			7.239
60%			244,000			3.739
50%			(36,000)			.239  (Month is 2 trips but year is 25 trips or 12.5
months)
40%			(316,000)			(3.3261)
30%			(596,000)			(6.761)
20%			(876,000)			(10.261)
10%			(1,156,000)		(13.761)
0%			(1,436,000)		(17.261)

That was for a mortgage.  A large shipping firm would most likely purchase
it outright, thus saving the 120% interest..  Following are the Return on
Investment (ROI) times for the ship.  Formula is Total Cost of
Ship/(Profit -Operating Expenses)  Operating Expenses for this ship are
1.261MCr per year.

ROI			Number of Years
100% Capacity		9.48
90%			10.58
80%			11.97
70%			13.77
60%			16.21
50%			19.71
40%			25.12
30%			34.64
20%			55.76
10%			142.92
0%			Never!

BTW: The first cut at this design using the SSDS 1.2 revision had the cost
in the 600MCr range which made it VERY difficult to pay for.  Now what can
we fit into 1400 tons.  I am thinking of designing an even large ship, say
10,000-50,000 for bulk freight, and see if any economies of scale come in.
 I do think there might be problems with this size ship of loading the
cargo in 1 week.  You would have to pay dockhands, or have other equipment
to load/offload.  Really big ships can only orbit, so that might be a
problem also.
DCB
- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:56:30 -0500
Subject: Size of Naval Vessels

Although you can produce smaller vessels cheaper and quicker, I do not
think that even in Mileu ) the size of Capital Ships will be all that much
smaller.  Maybe an order of magnitude (Say 50,000 for a Dreadnought
instead of 500,000.  10,000 for a Cruiser instead of 100,000.  1,000 for a
destroyer instead of 10,000, and maybe 500 for an escort instead of 5,000.
 However, even these rules of thumb don't work too well.  You see the
purpose of the Navy is to overpower any opponent.  How will a 500 ton
escort look when it goes up against 3 400 ton corsairs?  The Navy won't
risk ships like that.  They will send in a KTon+ ship at least that can
smite the Corsairs in the blink of an eye.

Another point I will continue to hammer.  With the Military Tech at Tl-12.
 I think that carriers will become one of the mainstays of the fleet.  You
see The Imperium will be the only group out there that can field 20-50 ton
fighters.  A carrier with 100 of those would be a formidable opponent,
especially against smaller opponents.  The fighters could quickly pacify a
system, and a group of 4 could most likely handle any opponent they meet. 
You might need more for larger ships, but that is what fighter groups are
for.  From a role-playing standpoint, fighters make great environments for
either side.  You can let each character operate independently, or let
them feel the wrath of a swarm of Ramparts.
DCB
- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 96 01:18:34 PST
Subject: Re: Nukes in Space.....

I spotted this in rec.arts.sf.science. Sounds suitably nasty... :-)

Bruce Lewis <bchan@deltanet.com> writes:

> One way to effectively use nukes as effective
> space weapons (w/o inventing the miraculous
> X-Ray laser) is to use them as the propellant
> for a "nuclear shotgun shell". A regular old
> bomb optimized for thermal effect is surrounded
> by a shaped shell of a rapid-expansion material
> that has a high gamma absorption rate--something
> like, say, Styrofoam. On top of this, a layer of spherical
> metallic shotordinary BBs would do nicely, or maybe
> depleted U-235 pellets, each with a thin coating of graphite 
> for thermal ablation. The whole works is shrink-wrapped 
> in styrene film and offloaded in the vicinity of the target.
> When set off, the gamma flash from the bomb is
> instantly absorbed by the Styrofoam, which flashes into
> a high-density shell of rapidly expanding plasma.
> The shock wave created by the plasma impacts the BBs,
> which then fly out from the explosion point at extremely
> high speed, forming a coupling mechanism for the
> bomb's energy--EMR-->KE-->mechanical energy as
> the pellets rip through the target at a few percent of light-
> speed. Ouch!

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: marcher@cccp.net (Mark Archer)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 12:26:02 +0200
Subject: Solomani and the RC

Hi all,
        I have a question.  Assuming the Solomani survive as a pocket empire
(after all they've got all the original research right there).  These people
are going to be more Xenophobic and bigoted and sneaky as ever.  How would
the RC react to meeting them, after all they are most decended from the
Solomani, and there culture is built on Solomani ideas.  Come to think of it
how would they cope with any pocket empire, I would hazard a guess that it
would change there ideas, or they would go to all out war.  What do you thinl?

                -Mark

*************************************************
 Mark Archer     marcher@cccp.net
 "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are
  looking at the stars."
  - Oscar Wilde
*************************************************


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 07:43:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Aging and super-characters

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, John R. Snead wrote:

> Joe mentioned that reducing aging effects can unbalance chargen, this is 
> quite true.  There are, however, easy alternatives.
> 
> I don't like the threat of old age to be the limit on chargen.  I tend to 
> limit folks to 5 or fewer terms and not worry much about aging.


Exactly, I am getting sick of hearing referees who don't know how to set
ground rules complain "awww, my player's characters are too old and have
too many skills".  Ther referee is ALL POWERFUL.  Any ref who lets his
players just waltz all over him isn't much of a ref.




> 
> -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 29 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 185

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. QSDS/SSDS Formats for Macintosh
         2. Virus, Netiquette, Miniatures
         3. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
         4. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
         5. The Virus
         6. Re: Rational Discussion
         7. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
         8. Re: Virus by Email
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #184
        10. Virus
        11. Re: A really cool thread!!
        12. Psionic Suppression
        13. Re: Solomani and the RC

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ross@odyssee.net (Ross Coburn)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 08:53:49 -0400
Subject: QSDS/SSDS Formats for Macintosh

Greetings all;

Having just converted the abovementioned programs over to
Macintosh-friendly formats, I am hereby offering to send to Dave/post
publicly said documents in a variety of Macintosh/generic formats
including:

PDF (Adobe)
EPS (I can do them more than one page at a time...  [g])
Word 5.1 (Word 6.x can die for all I care)
Word Perfect 2 or 3.x
PageMaker

Etc, etc.

Ross Coburn
ross@odyssee.net



------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 01:16:18 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Virus, Netiquette, Miniatures

Dear Folks -

1. VIRUS

Thank you Douglas, Ross, and Paul {tiger}, for some sanity in
this discussion.  I thought this thread had been done to death?

(BTW, I thought that you could *not* get infected via sensors? I didn't 
read this in any of the material. I have no problem with Virus attacking 
via the transponders, as these were already alive, and had access to
the main CPU to execute code. My main problem was that it was supposed to 
reproduce by physically cutting code on other chips. How? Where did it 
get the power? It can't tell a powerpoint to give more power to the 
computer (actually, come to think of it, aboard ship it probably *can*, 
but how does it get the power diverted to itself? Oh well, more handwaving). 

My *real* gripe was the way that this plot device effectively destroyed
all that DGP had done: no Imperium to do a "Grand Tour" through anymore,
no sentient robots anymore, all that work on races and system generation
gone - if GDW had deliberately wanted to destroy all of DGP's work, they
couldn't have done a better job. 

...BUT, having said that, I also have to say that the TNE books (from
Survival Margin thru Path of Tears, etc, up the the Regency Sourcebook)
contained some of the best material I had seen from GDW in many a year. As
with ANY material, I will use what I like, and discard what I don't like -
after all, *I* am the referee in my game. I have never, ever, run a
scenario straight out of the box, and I'm not going to start now. You HAVE
to modify everything to fit your group, their situation, and your playing
style. 

2. NETIQUETTE

Just a general point, as I don't want to flame anyone in particular, but
can we all perform the following out of politeness: 

- - please DO NOT quote 20 lines and add "I agree". Don't even quote 20
lines and add your own 20 lines. Cut the quoted text to *just a few* lines (let's
say 2) specific to your point (THEN you can add your 20 lines). 

<rant mode on>

Believe me, the people following your particular thread WILL recognise the
quoted text and its context - really, they will, believe me!! 

I couldn't keep up on a 1200-baud modem, and I still can't keep up on my
new 28800 baud modem!! The excess quoted text wastes bandwidth and DOUBLES
the size of each digest! Remember some people (no, not me, fortunately)
actually have to pay for EACH BYTE THEY DOWNLOAD!! 

Please be considerate and give us all a break.

<rant mode off>

The above is not intended as a way of saying people's POV's are
unimportant.  It is just meant as a plea to reduce the "noise" so it is
easier to hear what you all are saying. 

3. MINIATURES

Paul said: 
>Yeah, I hated buying all those outrageously priced migures. They ran my
>credit card bill up so high!!!  :-)

With no credit card, I was only able to buy half of them! ;-)

Is there any word on whether RAFM will produce miniatures for IG (either
starships or people)? They don't seem to reply to mail - do they have a
Net page or email address?? 

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity".


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 08:17:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Seriously, I think some folks are most interested in building these
> monster warships...why?  Maybe they just like to build them?  Maybe
> they are involved in fleet/taskforce games where they less play
> characters than play ships...sort of SFB like?

I think it the penis extender thing. 8)  

No seriously I can see where HUGE warships have their place, but in a 
small state that's trying to expand it's sphere of influence rapidly 
building anything over about 2000 tons is a massive waste of manpower.  
You invest so much time and effort into these leviathans and they can't 
be everywhere at once.
 
> Personally, I'm interested in a ship *entirely* for what it brings to
> the roleplaying experience.  I don't especially care about armor[snip]
> and lock onto jump coordinates. Techs and engineers use their
> *gravtics* skill to fix the broken grav module, *electronics* skill to
> fix the sensors, etc.

Absolutely.  My charaters are in it for the roleplaying experience, not 
to have the snot beaten out of them everytime they do something wrong.  
Sure there's nothing quite like the Han Solo flying past the conning 
tower of the SuperStar Destroyer.  Perhaps when the 3rd Imperium becomes 
more mature it will be building these ships, but in it's infancy I don't 
think so.
 
> Ok Derek, still want me behind the desk with you. <g>

Certianly, the more the merrier.  By the way there's a big tape ball in 
that drawer over there.  8)


Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 08:24:13 -0700
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

Joe Walsh wrote:

>This sounds right to me. But didn't someone say something about fighters
>being the way to win a space war? If that's the case, maybe larger ships
>with more fighters /are/ the better way to go.

Did you every try and pilot a fighter against one of those monsters?  
"Next to die, place your bets everybody, Next to die."  That was probably 
the quickest was to get yourself killed.
 
>Right.  That's a major problem with the TL 11 and FF&S rules, where you
>end up with rather large crews.  I'm glad it was decided to put the
>additional rule in there where 100 and 200 ton craft can be run by 1
>and 2 people, respectively.  Even if I had a group of 6 players (which I
>don't), I think they'd dislike (and I know I would dislike) forcing them
>to run a ship with as many (or more) NPC's than PC's.

The ship my characters are flying about in my game is a 120ton 
exploration gunboat (in TNE)  Its got the entire sensor loadout, a missle 
bay, two laser turrets and a sandcaster.  With a crew of eleven, it's not 
 even large enough to find a corner to pout in quietly, but it's perfect 
for PC's.  There's enough NPC's around to keep the kibitzing rolling, and 
unlike the S-Class Scout, it's not likely to get shot down by the first 
farmer with a musket.
 
> To me, this is an important area where, in the fight of playability vs.
> realism, playability just has to win out.

Absolutely, if you can't role play the fight, what's the point of the 
game.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: "Kenji Houston" <hokido@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 96 10:30:37 
Subject: The Virus

Here is my variant of the Virus.

As the major powers exsusted their crew reserves to fight in the
Rebellion. The navies had to rely on more autonimous ship systems. This
resulted in computers gaining a rudimentary self awareness. When the
war was fought for logical objectives and means, the semi-selfaware
ships were "happy" to blast other semi-selfaware ships.

The "Black War" changed that! The War had degenerated to outright
revenge and cruelty. Many computers suffered a nervous breakdown.
Some commited suicied. Some decided to wipeout the true virus: mankind.
Still others decided to control the technology that mankind could have.

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------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 08:31:16 -0700
Subject: Re: Rational Discussion

Larry Hadley wrote:
> 
>That's the impression I got too.I was ready to pull my hair out when 
>Derek (whom I otherwise respect) just kept repeating the same thing 
>after I explained to him that his idea wouldn't work! <g>

Which line was that?  The active sensor part?  I agree with you on that 
BTW.  Or the can't execute the code part?
 
>I think the pro-virus side believes that Virus is some kind of 
>space-ghost that can exist in limbo, exerting it's will on Physical 
>Matter until it achieves it's goal - a home on a mainframe. (of course, 
>they don't botherthinking about WHY the virus wants the mainframe to 
>start with...)

Same reason we all want and mainframe.  Play multi player doom. 8)  

Not wanting to start another flame war here.

There's only one real answer to that question and it's the same reason 
men date women.  Procreation.  Like all lifeforms Virus's two main 
desires are:

1) self preservation and
2) procreation.

Through a mainframe the Virus could potentialy infect many more 
computers.
 
Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 08:40:29 -0700
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

Bri wrote:

>>Anyway the person was saying that the ship really wasn't big enough at
>>500 tons to be a real warship.  Some thoughts on that comment.

>Nope ;)
>And yes, that was me.

I knew if I sent this I'd get a reply from the original sender.  I'm 
working off of memory for your message.  Had to reformat the harddrive 
and I lost the original.

Anybody ever notice how satisfying it is to type in FORMAT C: and press 
enter?

>True,but did that stop Britian from building the HMS Dreadnought, or for
>that matter any current day large warship(current US Carriers are
>literialley small floating citys...)

No it didn't and I'm not arguing that there wouldn't be a few of these 
monsters out there, it's just practically the Syleans' would be better 
off making smaller ships to start with till they had a secure base of 
operations and then worry about building the bigger ones.

> No doubt, no doubt in the least!
>Merley, all I was saying was that that was _not_ a warship. Imperial
>warships according to 'Ships of the Line'(Ok, I forget what the CT book
>was called<grin>, if you really care I'll say) but the smallest genuine
>warships(capitol ships)/ships of the line were 25,000dtonne and the
>largest was 500,000Dtonne...
>Of course,I'm not the type who would consider a Gazelle a warship, but I
>would consider a Midu Agaasham escort(which is the same class size). 
>There is a diffrince between a warship and a escort, tho.

No arguments here.
 
> <snip>

awww, you snipped my favorate part... 8(

>Aggreed 100%, that's why most 'pc sized' starships are under the
>1000dtonne mark. If you did want to do a large ship, just look at<I hate
>to mention it> Star Trek, put the players in key posisitions(From the ST
>point of view, they'res about 30 people on that ship ;)

This is true.  And it is a point that I hate, but for the purpose of 
story telling you have to make certian sacrifices.
 
>>(I'm wearing my asbestos undies and kevlar vest so do you worst.)

>  No need for that....
>  After all, I've got a rock dropper<grin>

Did I mention my really big beach umbrella? 8)

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 08:46:34 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:
> 
>>Remember all computers, reguardless of who designed them have one thing
>>in common.  Binary.
> 
> Nope. There are actually some base-10 computers! There are also a lot
> of *analog* computers (they are making a comeback, but slowly).
> 
> Multi-value logic (ie more than just 2 possible values) is at least a
> hundred years old. And it has been applied to some computer systems.

Having been formally re-educated by the Zhodani re-education system I 
retract that statement and declaim myself to be a healthy, happy and sane 
individual.  8)

[deadpan]
I loved it, much better than Cats.  I'm going to see it again and again.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 10:56:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #184

>From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
>Subject: Operating a Cargo Ship

...design deleted...

>Operating Expenses (est)
>ID			Month (CR)		Year (MCr)
>Salaries			18,000			.216

I know how to figure this one

>Life Support		56,000			.7
>Annual Maintenance	26,667			.320

Where do these two figures come from?

>Berthing			2,000			.025

I had been leaving this out when I've been doing this here, where is the
reference to it in the rules?  (I remember seeing it now)

>Mortgage		1,333,333		16

This is the 1/240th number listed in the rules?


>Profit/(Loss)		Month (2 trips)		Year

I think depending on the travel times from 100D to the starport, 2 trips a
month is probably very good.  I'd guess the number would be closer to 3
trips every 2 months.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 10:56:07 -0500
Subject: Virus

At the risk of starting another war, let me clarify a few things that I
think are misunderstood, and let me try to understand some things.

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Virus Issues
>
>Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> writes:
>
>> I think the above is the key.  I know the physicist's among us have a
>> serious problem with the reactionless thrusters.
>
>Some. But not a major problem, we'd just tweak the rules a bit.

I seem to remember this to be a major issue a month or so ago.  Lots of hot
headed people on both sides and no real happy middle!

>> I would guess the
>> psychologist's among us (and others who study human nature) find the idea
>> that Psionics can be supressed (with human curiosity what it is) somewhat
>> difficult.
>
>Huh? The Psionic suppressions are in the same league as various
>religious and racial suppressions. They are no more (or less) possible
>than the Inquistion, or other things in history.

Yeah, but protestantism thrived during the times of the most persecution.
But I do see your point here.

>> The Economists and Financeurs among us (myself included) have
>> trouble reconciling the Imperial government structure and such with the
>> existing trade practices in the Imperium.
>
>The trade rules are changeable.

Trade RULES are not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about the idea of a
person in Traveller 1. being able to afford a grav car (much less a
starship), 2. the idea that people with a higher technology level (and thus
an assumedly higher education factor) would accept living under a nobility
structure without any control for themselves (look at the modern democratic
reforms), and 3. The idea that a bank will lend someone the money to buy a
starship and expect to get that money back!  (This is my biggest complaint!)

Anyway, I'm not talking about rules, I'm talking about background issues.

>>  The folks who study FTL potential
>> (sorry, I don't know what you guys are called) find the Jump drive theory
>> crazy.
>
>Physicists again. And while jump doesn't sound likely, FTL is *not* a
>settled matter in the phsyics community.
>

That's my point right there!  Jump Drive (FTL into another dimension taking
1wk on average no matter how far you go) is probably considered a silly
notion by the physicists who study FTL, but in Trav we must keep it because
1. it is a a plot device, and 2. since it was included in previous editions,
we can't change it without changing background!

>> The military and ex-military among us find the combat rules obscene.
>
>Even just plain old gun owners wonder about firearms damage.

Right, but this is one of those things that can be changed by changing the
rules.  I put it here because it serves as an example.  I don't know about
CT, but I know the combat rules (and I assume the lethality) has changed
from MT to TNE.  My point is that everyone has their own idea of what is the
best, most realistic version of combat.

>> The major difference is that in every other incarnation of traveller, all of
>> the above ideas and technology (reactionless Thrusters, Psionics, Economic
>> rules, Jump Drive, and Combat Rules) are all included.  The folks who are
>> specialists in these other areas have to deal with the same difficulties the
>> Computer Specialists are forced to deal with concerning Virus.  The
>> difference is that the folks in the other fields can't just toss out the
>> version that includes the part of the background or rules that disagrees
>> with currently known technology because they exist in all previous versions.
>
>Sorry. Wrong answer. The reactionless drive can be *ignored* (make it a
>reaction drive of some sort) with next to no effect on the game. The

This is what TNE did, and got blasted because HEPLAR (I never remember which
ones to cap) wasn't cannon, that is, it didn't agree with previous versions!

>Psionic suppression has little effect on the game, though it has some
>effect on the background. You can drop psionics from the game and most
>players wouldn't notice.

True, but it would still effect the background seriously!

> FTL is *not* that big a deal.

It would be a big deal if you left it out, or even if you changed it.  The
effects on the background would be devestating!  (Reread the Jump torp
debate if you don't believe me!)

>As for the trade
>rules, notice the number of cariants floating around?

See above.  My arguement is not so much the rules as it is the ideas in the
background.

>There are lots of variant combat rules
>around too. Again, no real effect on the background.

Agreed, but it was a good try! ;)

>Now, consider the virus. Not only is it much farther "out of line" than
>any of the item you mention (each of them is basicaly "a" problem, the
>virus is *at least* 4) but it is *integral* to the background.

I only find one major problem with the Virus, and that is the problem with
sensors and comm units being receivers.  I also don't see that Virus is
*integral* to the background.  A number of people have argued that Virus
wasn't necessary because of the devestation from the Black War.

>> Let's see if we can summarize the arguements:
>> 
>>   ANTI-VIRUS SIDE - Virus is just a program that must be executed before it

Got the first part right, so it has been deleted.

>> The
>> idea that Virus can be transported through sensors and communications and
>> (possibly) even transponders which are just data is ludicrous.
>
>You've lumped several things together that are *not* the same. 
>
>It *is* ludicrous to have the Virus use sensors as a means of
>infecting. But it is *possible* (though unlikely) that comm links could
>transmit it. It depends on the nature of the link, and other factors
>(you have a *chance* of infecting my computer through my modem, but not
>thru my FM radio or my cable TV box!). 

I agree about the sensors.  (BTW, this is something that has changed over
the course of this debate.)  I see your point about the comm links as well,
but this method of entry would be limited to the types of Virus that could
immitate Human run ships.  The key to comm link infection according to
Survival Margin was the computer controlled communications.  I'll post
quotes of the description of this if you'd like.

>The transponders are a weird case. In the real world a transponder is a
>sensor (radar pulse detector) coupled to a specialized transmitter.
>When it gets the right sort of radar pulse ("gets interrogated") it
>responds by echoing back the pulse (greatly increasing the image on the
>radar screen) and tacking on an IFF code to identify itself. A *very*
>dumb piece of equipment. (they aren't even hooked up to anything else
>on board except the radar antenna)
>
>In TNE, they say that the transponders use the Cymbelline chips, and
>"chatter" back and forth. So I'd have to give you the ability for them
>to be infected.

Transponders (from 1086) were standardized in the Imperium, and this was the
"ace in the hole" for the Virus.  Transponders were connected to the
communications equipment and to the computer core.  This enabled the Virus
to lodge itself into another computer system that contained a transponder
(starports, starships, and spacecraft).  From there Virus would infect the
whole system.

>>   PRO-VIRUS SIDE -  Two things must be taken into consideration as the basis
>> for considering Virus.  1. Virus is alive and makes its own choices, and
>> therefore doesn't need to be activated to begin to take control of a
>> computer. It can activate itself.
>
>If it isn't activated, then it isn't alive! It has to be alive to do
>anything. It's in "suspended animation" until it is activated by the
>receiving computer. Its "life processes" consist of instructions being
>executed by the computer. So it isn't alive unless it is being
>executed. If it isn't being executed, then it's like a person in a low
>berth, all biological processes are stopped.
>
>I think you folks need to re-think this point.
>

Agreed, I changed the word activated to the word executed in the sentence
above, but that still doesn't convey the message.  I think what I was trying
(and failing miserably) to get across was that Virus didn't need human
interaction to be executed.

>>  2. We are discussing computers that are
>> so far ahead of our technology that we can't even begin to comprehend how or
>> even why they work much less how a virus will interact with them.
>
>Again I disagree. For the simple fact that while we may not understand
>how the *hardware* works, it is still going to be performing a series
>of simple logical operations. The software is just going to be a set of
>logical instructions. Don't confuse the hardware operations with the
>*logical* operations.  And don't confuse the high level language
>statements with the logical operations they get translated into for the
>hardware.

I see what you're saying.  I think I may have not understood what others
were arguing about the PRO-VIRUS issues, but after recently rereading parts
of Survival Margin, I think I have a few better explanations of why
PRO-VIRUS is possible.

>>   FINAL POINT - One other point needs to be considered, and that is that the
>> Transponders required by the Imperium to be on any ship that travelled
>> within its borders were small boxes that contained the Virus "chips."  These
>> systems were required to be intergrated with the computer systems on board
>> the ship.  This "Transponder suite" is supposed to have been the main access
>> point of the Virus.
>
>Which I grant you (see above)
>
>To work on any other system, the virus either needs that system to have
>a built-in "back door" or it needs a *physical* manifestation that can
>examine the target system and makes changes. 

I think this arguement is more an arguement of how widely spread in
non-Imperial areas.  There are many arguements on both sides, but this post
is getting long.  I still have some questions, and I'd like to know what the
ANIT-VIRUS people think about some of the explanationa in Survival Margin.
I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO A PROLONGED ARGUEMENT ABOUT VIRUS, but some of the
things I thought before have changed, and I'm interested in finding out
more. (Add a bit of computer knowledge to my Jack-of-all-Trades skill! ;)

I'll post some of the stuff from Survival Margin later to get some
responces, but please remember, I'm not trying to argue, just to understand!


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 10:56:47 -0500
Subject: Re: A really cool thread!!

>> >"this is the thread that never ends,
>> >it just goes on and on my frinds,
>> >some people started flaming it not knowing what it was
>> >and they'll continue flaming it forever just because..
>
>> "this is the thread that never ends,
>> it just goes on and on my frinds,
>> some people started flaming it not knowing what it was
>> and they'll continue flaming it forever just because..
>
>This is the thread that never ends,
>It just goes on and on my frinds,
>some peope started flaming it not knowing what it was
>and they'll continue flaming it forever just because... 
>
this is the THREAD that never ends,
it just goes on and on my friends,
some people started flaming it not knowing what it was
and they'll continue flaming it forever just because...

------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 13:22:06 -0500
Subject: Psionic Suppression

I think that Leonard Erickson is missing the point when he talks about
Psionic Suppression from a standpoint of making it illegal, etc.  The
point was how does one go about masking/disrupting Psionics from a
technical level...
- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 09:12:34 -0700
Subject: Re: Solomani and the RC

Mark Archer wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
>   I have a question.  Assuming the Solomani survive as a pocket empire
>(after all they've got all the original research right there).  These 
>people are going to be more Xenophobic and bigoted and sneaky as ever.  
>How would the RC react to meeting them, after all they are most decended 
>from the Solomani, and there culture is built on Solomani ideas.  Come 
>to think of it how would they cope with any pocket empire, I would 
>hazard a guess that it would change there ideas, or they would go to all 
>out war.  What do you thinl?

Well I'm not sure what I thinl, but I think that there Solomani might 
receive a fairly cold welcome from the RC if they continued their old 
ways.

Not arguing that the RC are equally sneaky, but the RC are neither 
Xenophobic or bigoted.  Infact they despise xenophobic societies as they 
serve no one and from all evidence I've seen they welcome the insight of 
alien cultures.

As to other Pocket Empires there are two known examples, Empire of Solee, 
which they eventually destroy and Covenant of Suffern, which they 
probably form a parnership with or eventually absorb as and equal 
partner.  Now the point here is these two PE's have radically different 
views on expansion into the wilds.  Suffern says, "Would you like to 
join?  No, that's a shame, well talk to you later."  Where as Solee says, 
"If you don't join willingly I've got two SEH Cruisers parked in orbit 
and we'll make you join."

Basically the RC beleives that every society has the right to chose as 
long as they're not going against the will of the people.  If the people 
want one thing and the government is a tyrnaical despot then watch out.  
If the governement is open and friendly then there'll be peaceful 
relationships for years to come.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #185
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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 29 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 186

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: 20 questions about Virus
         2. Re: School Lunches
         3. Virus Flame War
         4. Re: Virus, Netiquette, Miniatures
         5. Re: QSDS/SSDS/FF&S errata (IG PLEASE READ!)
         6. Re: FF&S Light
         7. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
         8. Re: Aging and super-characters
         9. Re: Overexplaining technology
        10. Re: Virus by Email
        11. Re: Nukes in Space.....
        12. Re: QSDS/SSDS Formats for Macintosh
        13. Re: Rational Discussion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 09:21:55 -0700
Subject: Re: 20 questions about Virus

At 01:52 AM 6/29/96 -0400, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

>> >   I'm sentient, yet I must still obey all the rules of computer
>> > programming when operating a computer. I fail to see what sentience has to
>> > do with this.
>> 
>> I would imagine it would have something to do with the fact that Virus occupi
>> a computer like we occupy 3D space.  You, yourself, are talking about
>> manipulating the goings-on inside a computer using an alpha-numeric keyboard 
>> little else.  *Your* consciousness is not imposed on that computer.
>
>Even granting your point (which I don't) there's a *huge* hole in your
>logic. Sure the virus may be sentient, and thus able to change the way
>the system it is running on works (about as likely as your mind being
>able to change the way your brain works). But the system that the virus
>is trying to infect *isn't* sentient! Regardless of what it may be able
>to do once the virus is running on it, it can only behave according to
>its programming until the virus is running on it.

I recently drove across the Golden Gate Bridge.  How did that bridge get there?

A>  It is an amazingly useful outcropping, complete with naturally occuring
asphalt, speed limit signs, and surly toll booth attendants.

B>  The sentient Earth, seeing the growth of San Francisco, raised the
bridge from the mud of the Bay.

C>  the sentient humans, frustrated by the long journey by ferry or having
to drive 150 miles out of their way to reach Marin, altered the face of the
planet, and built the damn thing.

No, before we got here, the Golden Gate ran "according to its programming",
running tides, looking scenic as fuck.  Once we "Virus people" showed up, we
began altering things to suit ourselves.  We've filled in large portions of
the Bay, built an artificialisland or two, diverted rivers, and built nine
bridges.

That is how Virus operates!

Now, as for the incompatible system arguement. (Tip of the Vaccsuit helmet
to Bill Turnbow for this.)

An Imperial Vampire is cruising through a system when it encounters an Aslan
vessel.  Tries to infect it. Fails, due to the different systems.  Proceeds
to blast the Aslan ship to wreckage (for the sake of arguement).  Vampire
then sends robots to inspect the wreckage, while it accesses all the known
library data about Aslan computers.

Same ship, a month later.  Encounters an Aslan merchant during refueling.
Opens a hailing channel, Aslan answers.  the Vampire then sends its "child"
a copy of itself *designed to work on the Aslan computer system* at the
merchie.  If it works, goodbye Hierate, if not, kill the merchant and back
to the virtual drawing board.

Virus is sentient.  Intellegent.  Got's a load o'brainpower.  It will infect
your systems, it won't stop, don't you understand? That's all it does!!!

(Sorry, watched Terminator last night.)

>> Perhaps you'd like to take a crack at
>> explaining Gravitics or Psionics using today's theories?  They've  been
>> Traveller 'canon' since day-one.

>Psionics is not explainable. More or less by definition. :-)

Really?  Or is that another case of "I don't have an answer, so I dismiss
the question."

>> "This type of arguement can be used to explain almost everything in the
>> Traveller universe.  It is only when this information falls within someone's
>> area of expertise when things start to fall apart (you obviously know a great
>> deal about computers).
>
>One *doesn't* have to know a great deal about computers. One merely has
>to know the basic principles behind them.

Hate to tell you this, but basic principals can change.  One example is in
*my* area of expertise, weapons.  We now are experimenting with liquid
propellent guns.  Unbelievable muzzle energy, much cleaner, and almost no
muzzle flash.  If this works out, gunpowder might join the buggy whip on
history's back shelf.  The idea was first thought 30 years ago, but was
dismissed as impossible "due to the basic principals of chemistry" (Jane's
Defence Annual, 1995)

>FTL is pretty much a given in SF, and is necessary to make interstellar
>travel practical for a game. Besides, there are *several* different
>ways it could be accomplished in theory.

So you admit to using a poorly explained, unrealistic plot device to further
your game?  Hypocracy, sir.

>Now we get to the computers and Virus bit. Computers are based on
>*logic*. And most of the rules they are based on have been studied for
>several thousand years! We've refined things a bit, and explored the
>ins and outs, but the actual rules of logic are about as fixed as the
>rules of geometry.

Men also studied aerodynamics and flew toy gliders and kites for several
thousand years.  But it wasn't until the technology existed for the Wright
Brothers that man actually flew.  Even then, we found that many of our basic
assumptions were wrong. 

>Sure, they may have hardware we can't conceive of in the 57th century.
>But the rules the *programs* have to follow won't be any different.
>Logic is logic. How you *implement* a device to perform logical
>operations doesn't affect the results of those operations (except that
>if you don't do it right, the answers will be wrong).

I find this to be the most annoying thing in this thread.  We are talking
about THREE THOUSAND SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS.  In 1700BCE, do you think anyone
could even conceive of what we have now?  That was the Bronze age.. the
concept of STEEL was unknown.  All their "basic assumptions" were based on
the strength of bronze.  If you described the Golden Gate Bridge to the
finest engineers of the Middle Kingdom, they would tell you that this was
impossible, and could never be done.




# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 09:22:04 -0700
Subject: Re: School Lunches

As I recall, the sector offcials simply took the cost of building a single
AHL Cruiser from the education budget, and told the Ministry of Education to
start planning the bake sales.

Typical.

# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 13:37:03 -0500
Subject: Virus Flame War

I really didn't want to get into this, but I have to...

All of the things GDW claimed Virus could do are POSSIBLE (not necessarily
PROBABLE).  Virus (assuming it is what GDW says it is (e.g.) a
semi-sentient life form, that can manipulate raw silicon around it to grow
and replicate) could spread from ship to ship quite easily using the Deyo
Chip.  Since it already is the lifeform, it could manipulate the silicon
around it and create more life, (e.g.) the mainframe.  Now given that (and
it is a big given mind you), it becomes possible for Virus to infect via
Deyo Chips.  Given the electronic nature of Virus, it once again is
possible that it could attach to another computer, and through remote
execution (done all the time BTW) could load up and execute a basic EGG if
you will that would begin the rudimentary life process of Virus. 
Unfortunately we have to assume that Virus can exist in any silicon that
can be modified.  This of course could be changed for the appropriate
Computer Hardware of the 57th Century.  The end result is that since most
computers are used to allowing external access to themselves, and many
even now allow limited remote execution, it would be possible to create an
EGG that could hatch after being executed by the other infected computer
into a Virus.

Now is any of this possible?  Most likely not in our current understanding
of Computes.  However, in the 57th Century Computers may very well follow
different standards than today.  The whole architecture internally may be
self-repairing/biological/etc which could make this whole scenario more
likely.

Now for the last bit.  I send this message because I am VERY SICK of this
thread, and it seemed that the only people still talking about it were the
Virus bashers.  Whether you like Virus or not DOESN'T MATTER to me ONE
BIT!!!  If you want to discuss the potential for it in a reasoned way,
then lets take it private.  I also am a computer professional, and can
discuss this in a reasoned manner.  Flame Wars get us nowhere, and waste
everyone else's time and bandwidth.

So with that I will Duck (whoosh) and Cover da da dum, Duck (whoosh) and
Cover...
DCB
- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 09:53:25 -0800
Subject: Re: Virus, Netiquette, Miniatures

On 30 Jun 96 at 1:16, David Jaques-Watson spewed:

> Is there any word on whether RAFM will produce miniatures for IG (either
> starships or people)? They don't seem to reply to mail - do they have a
> Net page or email address?? 

1 of the AOL conferences had somebody (Ken Whitman I believe), saying 
that yes, they would be using RAFM as before.  The scale will be 
25mm, so all those old New Era miniatures will still be useful...
Don't know on the e-mail address though...

Stu

 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:57:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: QSDS/SSDS/FF&S errata (IG PLEASE READ!)

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

>         Unfortunately we don't have that choice. I really wish I'd had a
> month to do the basic development, instead of one week. I know what I put
> out doesn't really satisfy me, and I'm sure others agree, but it's better
> than what we were offered before we started.

True. It's too bad the factors combined to require such speed in creating 
this system.  It's not IG's fault, either - they didn't get the rights to 
Traveller until GDW went out of business (and, no, I'm not saying it's 
GDW's fault!  read on...), which was just early this year.  When IG and 
FFE got together to do this project, several established companies 
already had their own sci fi games on the drawing board.  IG and FFE 
wanted to beat them to market (which is a strategy I whole-heartedly 
support).   If they would have stuck with a slightly revamped CT, MT, or 
TNE, they could have done it, without too many errors.

But, they chose to involve us in the process, and we had a lot of really 
good input.  That input will make a better product.  But if it slows 
product introduction by much, Traveller could miss its window of 
opportunity.  So, they stuck to their production schedule (for the most 
part) and tried to add the suggestions as well.

They're walking a tightrope, and I hope they make it to the other side 
without falling! 

BTW, I browsed through FF&S last night, and I have to admit that having 
a cleaned-up FF&S available for T4 is A Good Thing.  This book is 
amazing.  Sure, there are problems with it, but if it's cleaned up it 
will be phenominal.  

Of course, if you have FF&S you have to have something simpler, too, 
which gets us back to the problem of getting the best product out in the 
shortest possible time.  As long as SSDS and QSDS /work/, things aren't 
that bad.  Second editions can come out, with corrections, but only if 
the original product does well.  I've worked with QSDS rather a lot over 
the last few weeks, and I'm satisfied it works.  I'm sure SSDS is just as 
workable.  Both systems could be improved (what system can't?), but given 
the timeframe that Guy and David had to work with, the systems as they 
exist are very impressive.  I think those who buy T4 won't be 
disappointed. 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:58:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: FF&S Light

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 10:33 am 6/28/96 -0500, you wrote:
> >Could someone please convert the FF&S Light doc to
> >a portable format so that those of us without Word6
> >can check it over?
> 
>         Rich Text Format (RTF) is generally considered a portable format ...
> however, thanks to two kind gentlesophonts, you can now get a Word2.0 and a
> WordPerfect 5 version from the FF&S Light page as well.

Woo hoo!  Maybe I will yet have SSDS this weekend...

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 12:07:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I don't like the fighter model.  It's too Star Wars...too Battle Star
> Glactica! <g>  

I /liked/ Battlestar Galactica, believe it or not. :)  I plead youth and 
inexperience, though, as I was....what, 11 when that show came out (was 
it '79?).

> Why don't we make all the minor craft boats?  After all, we already
> have the Ship's Boat and the System Defence Boat!  The "carriers"
> become Boat Tenders.  The "fighters" become Missile Boats, Patrol
> Torpedo Boats, Gun Boats.  Make the Boats bigger than fighters, but
> smaller than SDB's with crews of 2 or 3: pilot, sensor ops,
> gunner/missile ops.
> 
> It's a different model from ST or SW, and one just right for
> Traveller.

Marc obviously wants to differentiate Traveller from the other two "legs" 
of the Sci-Fi tripod, and I think you are correct that this is a good way 
to add to that effort.  ST is heavily biased toward huge ships with huge 
crews, while SW was biased toward single-crew (or double, including the 
R2-D2 units) fighters.  Considering Traveller's role-playing roots (look 
at me, I'm already talking as if Traveller were some major media force!), 
the small-crew ships emphasis is the right way to go.  Good thought.


> I still think nobody in their right mind will try to run a ship by
> themselves..for long anyway.  <g> Generally though, I do like smaller
> crews than the "rules" are giving us.  A group of 3 to 8 is the best
> size for RPGing, and that's what this is all about. Right?

Right.

> It will!  <G> Those of us that play will dump, add, rearrange, and
> finagle until playability wins out.

There's always that. :)  But, you know me...always trying to spoon feed 
the (assumed) hordes of new role-players T4 is going to attract. :)

Maybe, in the interest of providing proper support for new players, T4's 
boxed set should also include a computer, modem, and internet 
account, along with directions for subscribing to the Traveller mailing 
lists. :) :) 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 12:13:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Aging and super-characters

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, John R. Snead wrote:

> Joe mentioned that reducing aging effects can unbalance chargen, this is 
> quite true.  There are, however, easy alternatives.
> 
> I don't like the threat of old age to be the limit on chargen.  I tend to 
> limit folks to 5 or fewer terms and not worry much about aging.

Hmmm.  True, that would work.  Personally, though, I try not to make 
commands-from-on-high like that.  I'm sneakier, so I try to rig the 
system to prevent whatever player behavior I don't like. :P

I'm not saying my way is better...just different.  On that note, I'll 
mention that I will be working on the aging rules this weekend (using the 
last table I posted - unchanged -, with various DM's and a text 
explanation).  I'll post it when I get done.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 12:22:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Overexplaining technology

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Wanna bet? I can show you designs for gravity catapults, anti-grav
> units, and several other such things. The principles are *well*
> understood. We just can't *build* them. 
> 
> Ditto for a lot of proposed nanotech. The theory is well understood.
> Designs can be drawn up. It's just that we don't have the *engineering*
> capability.
> 
> Computers were designed in the 1800s. They just didn't have the ability
> to machine the parts required (these were mechanical systems). 

I stand corrected.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:29:50 -0600
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

At 08:00 am 6/28/96 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

        /* snip */

>The one way that "the Virus" *could* propogate would be as follows:
>
>Supposedly the IFF transponders all use the "living" chips, and exchange
>data among themselves. Ok, that let's the virus jump from one
>transponder to another.
>
>To jump to any other system, it *can't* infect via the datalinks, as
>they carry *data* not executable code. So, what it has to do is
>"cannibalize" part of the transponder circuitry to create a mobile
>subunit capable of *physically* following the data links.

        /* snip */

>To translate this into PC terms, we'll have the transponder be the
>modem. So the motile crawls through the cable to the serial port. Once
>it gets there, the "relay" is exchanging the usual stuff with the
>serial port, while only *part* of the cable is dedicated to that, and
>the rest is handling the data between the motile and the modem (again,
>the relay is making sure the data goes to the right place, so nothing
>unusual seems to be happening).

        OK. As somebody pointed out, I may haven't gotten beaten up enough
on SSDS, but I've still been very leery of getting involved with this
discussion. Nevertheless, here goes:

        Using the transponder chips, it is NOT necessary to have a physical
interface crawl from one transponder to the other. ALL these chips are
"bred" from some kind of "living" chip which preyed on other chips REMOTELY!
No physical connection needed. So, everybody who's arguing about different
logic systems, microcode architecture, etc. is forgetting one thing:

        EVERY SINGLE IMPERIAL SHIP HAD A COMMON INTERFACE AT THE
TRANSPONDER! And other states' ships which dealt in the Imperium were
required to have them as well.

        So Virus was GUARANTEED that it had an entry point into a ship's
system which it understood and knew. And it was GUARANTEED that that entry
point was capable of supporting an AI Virus. From there it was a matter of
entering the rest of the ship's system. Since the transponder, in order to
perform its function of reporting where a ship had been, what it had done,
etc. already had access to the rest of the ship's computers and had learned
its ship's own internal logic system, once Virus managed to take over the
transponder, it knew everything it needed to grab the rest of the system.

        As it happens, I wasn't buying everything from Survival Margin, and
definitely not TNE, but I liked the idea of Virus. So I threw out parts of
the explanation I didn't like. And I didn't need it ... my players were
playing AFTER Virus had destroyed civilization. They had no records of how
it worked, and no real way of finding out ... so I just told them the effects.

        Now, dodging herbivore feces and organically-decayed foodstuffs for
continuing the Thread That Wouldn't Die, I return you to your regularly
scheduled discussion of SSDS.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:29:52 -0600
Subject: Re: Nukes in Space.....

At 01:18 am 6/29/96 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

        Looks interesting. 'Course, I think his credibility went down when
he referred to the "inventing the miraculous X-Ray laser" -- that's
something hard-nosed engineers already figure they can do ... talk to the
guys who worked on the early full-coverage Strategic Defense Initiative. I
don't recall what the program name was (Ground-Based Laser? somesuch). They
were going to replace the normal warheads on ICBMs and SLBMs with X-Ray
laser warheads, and launch on alert to take out evil nasty pinko-commie
missiles.

>I spotted this in rec.arts.sf.science. Sounds suitably nasty... :-)
>
>Bruce Lewis <bchan@deltanet.com> writes:
>
>> One way to effectively use nukes as effective
>> space weapons (w/o inventing the miraculous
>> X-Ray laser) is to use them as the propellant
>> for a "nuclear shotgun shell". A regular old
>> bomb optimized for thermal effect is surrounded
>> by a shaped shell of a rapid-expansion material
>> that has a high gamma absorption rate--something
>> like, say, Styrofoam. On top of this, a layer of spherical
>> metallic shot=8Bordinary BBs would do nicely, or maybe
>> depleted U-235 pellets, each with a thin coating of graphite=20
>> for thermal ablation. The whole works is shrink-wrapped=20
>> in styrene film and offloaded in the vicinity of the target.
>> When set off, the gamma flash from the bomb is
>> instantly absorbed by the Styrofoam, which flashes into
>> a high-density shell of rapidly expanding plasma.
>> The shock wave created by the plasma impacts the BBs,
>> which then fly out from the explosion point at extremely
>> high speed, forming a coupling mechanism for the
>> bomb's energy--EMR-->KE-->mechanical energy as
>> the pellets rip through the target at a few percent of light-
>> speed. Ouch!
>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort
>
>
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available=20
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched=20
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:29:55 -0600
Subject: Re: QSDS/SSDS Formats for Macintosh

At 08:53 am 6/29/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Greetings all;
>
>Having just converted the abovementioned programs over to
>Macintosh-friendly formats, I am hereby offering to send to Dave/post
>publicly said documents in a variety of Macintosh/generic formats
>including:
>
>PDF (Adobe)
>EPS (I can do them more than one page at a time...  [g])
>Word 5.1 (Word 6.x can die for all I care)
>Word Perfect 2 or 3.x
>PageMaker

        Send'em all on over. I probably won't get them posted to the Web
site tonight, having been invited to a scientific experiment, determining
whether the rumor about hot tubs and altitude increase the effects of ethyl
alcohol on the human physiology ... tomorrow probably.

        Everybody note, I've got Wordperfect 5 and Word 2.0 posted now as well.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:29:57 -0600
Subject: Re: Rational Discussion

At 08:31 am 6/29/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Larry Hadley wrote:
>> 
>>That's the impression I got too.I was ready to pull my hair out when 
>>Derek (whom I otherwise respect) just kept repeating the same thing 
>>after I explained to him that his idea wouldn't work! <g>
>
>Which line was that?  The active sensor part?  I agree with you on that 
>BTW.  Or the can't execute the code part?

        I guess I never had too much trouble with the "executing the code
part" ONCE I read the full explanation ('course, I had trouble with a lot of
that). But when you remember that EVERY IMPERIAL SHIP had a Deyo
transponder, which was a "sentient" chip, and Virus was the SAME SPECIES of
chip (*not* originally a computer program, d****it), Virus was GUARANTEED a
compatible way into the system. From there it could write its own code to
infect the rest of the ship.

        And the transponder KNEW how to interface with the rest of the ship
... it had to to perform its function

        That's the crux of GDW's explanation of Virus. It DIDN'T originally
transmit a program, and hope the COMPUTER at the other end would be
compatible and stupid enough to execute it. It used an existing mechanism to
alter the TRANSPONDER at the other end, and from there take over the
computer. Remember, the transponders were continuously talking to each other.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #186
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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 29 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 187

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: No Fun
         2. Re: Virus, Netiquette, Miniatures
         3. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
         4. Re: 20 thoughts on virus
         5. Re: Fission Reactors
         6. Re: Rafm Miniatures
         7. ORIGINS warning
         8. Re: School Lunches
         9. Re: Virus ad nauseum
        10. Language and the Imperium
        11. Re: Deckplans
        12. Re: Sylean Exploration Co.
        13. Re: Language and the Imperium
        14. But Why?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 12:31:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: No Fun

On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> On 28 Jun 96 at 18:22, Larry Hadley spewed:
> 
> > On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> > 
> > > On 06/27/96 at 02:12 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> > > said:
> > > 
> > > >We must have run out of Threads That Wouldn't Die. :)
> > > 
> > > Nah, everybody's just reloading their guns. <g>
> > 
> >   Or <gasp> working! ;->
> 
> Work is for people who can't handle Traveller... ;-)

Oh, great.  I can see the posters now:  "You want Traveller?  You can't 
/handle/ Traveller!"  Maybe they can get Jack Nicholson to pose for it... :)

A little overdub of that scene in the movie, and they'd have a 
commercial... :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:34:07 -0600
Subject: Re: Virus, Netiquette, Miniatures

At 09:53 am 6/29/96 -0800, you wrote:
>On 30 Jun 96 at 1:16, David Jaques-Watson spewed:
>
>> Is there any word on whether RAFM will produce miniatures for IG (either
>> starships or people)? They don't seem to reply to mail - do they have a
>> Net page or email address?? 
>
>1 of the AOL conferences had somebody (Ken Whitman I believe), saying 
>that yes, they would be using RAFM as before.  The scale will be 
>25mm, so all those old New Era miniatures will still be useful...
>Don't know on the e-mail address though...

        Incidentally, I remember from WAY back when an individual on one of
the lists who made his own miniatures. Perhaps that person would be willing
to do so on a semi-moneymaking basis? I'll offer a page on my site for that ...

        I THINK (well, actually, often I don't think) it was Merrick, but my
memory is more faulty than not (lots of bad sectors not marked off).
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 13:06:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> Did you every try and pilot a fighter against one of those monsters?  
> "Next to die, place your bets everybody, Next to die."  That was probably 
> the quickest was to get yourself killed.

I have to admit I never have done that - and I've never had a player who 
did.  But then, our space battles were almost all one-on-one, with 
400-ton or smaller ships. 

I think it was Mr. Broussard who said he was going to prove that massive 
amounts of fighters were the way to win a space battle (but I could be 
mis-remembering).  I'd like to hear more about this...

> Absolutely, if you can't role play the fight, what's the point of the 
> game.

The only time I can remember being involved with huge warships was during 
one of our two greatest campaigns of all time (this one was in the Gamma 
World/Star Trek The Role Playing Game/Star Fleet Battles/House Rules 
hybrid game run by my best friend back in 82 or so; the other greatest 
campaign was one of my Traveller campaigns, of course. :).  My character 
had essentially conquered Earth, using his charisma, knowledge, and 
military tactics to convert or destroy every intelligent species in the 
Gamma World setting.  He (my character, "Stranger,") then had an NPC 
("Janitor" (pronounced Jani-tore), a really neat all-purpose self-aware 
robot that the GM used to great advantage in furthering many plots) 
repair a decaying space ship.  Over the course of play, my character 
became the Admiral of a fairly large fleet of ships knocking about, 
conquering the galaxy.  

Anyway, the campaign got pretty boring once Stranger had this huge ship and 
its crew (not to mention his whole fleet) at his disposal.  His skills 
didn't matter much anymore.  He said "Do this," and it was done.  He had 
sub-lieutenants for everything (it was a really tight, totally loyal 
organization).  Maybe it was just our ages (we were 13 or 14 then), but 
the driving force of the campaign disappeared about then, and we set it 
aside (in favor of another go at Traveller, which I spoke of in one of 
the first posts I made to XTML).

So, I've avoided such situations in my own campaigns.  Players stick with 
small ships and small crews (rarely more than one or two NPCs).  It's 
worked for us, anyway.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:06:52 GMT
Subject: Re: 20 thoughts on virus

On Jun 28, 1996 11:24:32, 'shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)'
wrote: 
 
>jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) writes: 
>> >   Nope. A Virus is a computer program, doesn't matter if it's sentient
or 
>> > not it's still just a computer program. Computer programs MUST be
executed 
>> > - there is *NO* other way. 
>>  
>> By *today's* standards, yes.  But what the hell is
holographically-linked 
>> controls?  And synaptic-linked computers?  You can't explain how things
will 
>> work 3,000 years from now with this kind of techno-babble based on
today's 
>> assumptions. 
 
>By *any* standards. This is not something subject to argument or 
>improvement like scientific theories. This is a matter of *definition*. 
>2+2=4 regardless of how far in the future you are. Likewise, a computer 
>virus is a program, and as such, the code making it up *must* be 
>executed to take effect. 
 
Okay, as usual in a debate of this type, one side is talking 
about apples and the other side is talking about pineapples, 
and the apple guys are insisting that you can't run pinecones 
with your apples.  Or something like that. 
 
As I see Virus attacks: Virus, to attach anything, *must* 
already be running on a CPU somewhere, whether it is a 
native Deyo chip, a previously-taken over ship's computer, 
or a hitherto unknown-to-be-infected chip in that frammistat 
control system you just turned on... 
 
To attack an uncontrolled system, the CPU on which the Virus 
is already running (hereafter called the "Virus CPU") *must* 
be in communication with the target CPU.  This is consistant 
with canon. Once you have that, no "magic" or illogical-according 
- -to-current-knowledge assumptions are required; Virus just 
plays Super Hacker. It's got what it takes--an intimate knowledge 
of computer architectures, high intelligence, infinite patience 
and persistance (It has literally nothing better to do), and 
it doesn't have to stop to go to the bathroom or get another Jolt 
cola out of the fridge. And it operates at TL16+ computer speeds, 
not human thought speeds.  Like I said, Super Hacker. 
 
The target CPU must have some means of communicating with the 
outside world and accepting commands; without that, it's just 
an expensive electronic sock warmer.  If Virus can access that 
communication/command channel/socket/frequency/blah/blah/blah, 
sooner or later it can hack its way in and take over the target 
CPU.   
 
Now, what's so hard to believe about that? 
 
>Even granting your point (which I don't) there's a *huge* hole in your 
>logic. Sure the virus may be sentient, and thus able to change the way 
>the system it is running on works (about as likely as your mind being 
>able to change the way your brain works). But the system that the virus 
>is trying to infect *isn't* sentient! Regardless of what it may be able 
>to do once the virus is running on it, it can only behave according to 
>its programming until the virus is running on it. 
 
Yes, but most Impy computer systems are capable of doing a hell 
of a lot in accordance with their programming. 
 
>So any explanation of how the virus infects a system has to explain how 
>the system can be changedto allow the virus *before* the virus is 
>loaded. (You can run C64 programs on a PC if you load an emulator, but 
>the c-64 program can't load the emulator on the PC, the PC has to do 
>that in accordance with it's current programming) 
 
If your PC is hooked to the Internet, and running a real OS like 
linux, someone could write a worm that would exploit a security 
hole to get itself root access, download a C64 emulator, and  
then run the C64 program in it...  Given (a) communications access, 
(b) imperfect security, and (c) enough capability in the target system 
to actually do anything useful, you can do all kinds of interesting 
things.   
 
It is hypothesized that the only perfect security is that of 
having no outside communications at all, which makes the system 
useless, of course.  Therefore, if there is an external method 
of control, security is, by definition, imperfect. 
 
>For sensor data to be a way to infect the system, the computer would 
>already have to have been told to treat the incoming data as a program. 
>And there is *no* reason for anyone to set the computer up that way, in 
>fact there are a tremendous number of reasons *not* to.  Mostly to 
>prevent loading a virus that could take over the sensor system! Unless 
>you want to claim that four thousand years of experience with computers 
>has somehow made the folks designing and programming them *less* able 
>to see the vulnerabilities than we can, it just doesn't fly.  
 
(a) Security is inversely proportional to ease-of-use. 
(b) New technology introduces new security problems. 
(c) Computers are built of real, physical hardware, not abstract 
machines. Data *can* affect hardware; there is a moderately well 
known example from the early days of the space program where a 
repetitive, tight loop being executed within a CPU caused dopant  
migration sufficient to cripple the CPU in a satellite. They 
fixed it by sending it instructions for another tight loop that 
reversed the dopant migration.  Note that it wasn't what the 
instructions told it to do that caused the damage, it was the 
repetitive bit pattern set in the CPU's transistors. A repetitive 
data stream of the same type would have caused the same damage. 
 
>In case you were unaware, computer viruses were postulated in the early 
>60s. And some of the other ways that security can be breached that were 
>described in the early 70s are far beyond anything anyone has tried. 
>Yet military, government, and even large business computer requirements 
>are designed to protect against these. 
 
Are you so sure they haven't been tried?  A successful security 
breach, like the perfect crime, is never detected as such. 
 
>Psionics is not explainable. More or less by definition. :-) 
 
It also exists in the real world, though not with the fine 
precision and scientific training of Traveller psionics. 
 
As for Virus, well, you've seen my argument on why it makes 
perfect sense.  My argument has always been with the *way* it 
was used as a plot device, not that it existed, or whether 
or not it could do what was attributed to it. 
 
If you'd like to elaborate on various points, or argue points 
I left undeveloped, please do.  But stop dogmatically insisting 
that Virus is illogical. It's not. 
 
                     --Cynthia 
 
(where's my .sig! Something ate it)

------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:06:57 GMT
Subject: Re: Fission Reactors

On Jun 28, 1996 20:03:52, '"Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>' wrote: 
 
>> Fusion reactors are assumed to operate normally, without  
>> special rules for disasters.  So should fission reactors;  
>> a properly designed fission reactor is far safer than  
>> any other known power generation technology.    
>> (There is at least one member of the gdw-beta list with  
>> nuclear reactor experience in the Real World(tm); ask  
>> him, if you're worried about it).  
 
>Ship-reactors do face one disaster that current reactors do not: they  
>fly, and can crash.   
 
Submarines swim, and can sink & be crushed. Real World(tm) 
 
>This may cause some worlds to ban or restrict such ships from  
>entering the atmosphere.   
 
Why?  Are such worlds also restricting all hazardous cargos  
from being carried on ships through the atmosphere?  I can imagine 
some sad excuse for a technophobic, xenophobic society making 
such laws, but I can't see that as being a general reason for 
not building fission-plant powered ships. 
 
>Plus, when refueling is required, it is more expensive and inconvenient.  

 
If it is widely used, ships and fueling facilities will be designed 
such that removing spent fuel rods and replacing them will be 
less trouble than pulling an engine from a 747 and putting a new 
one in.  Cost is reflected in fuel costs. 
 
>I think this  
>balances a stable, mature technology being more space efficient than  
>fusion at earlier tech levels. 
 
Why balance it?  Isn't the Sylean edge supposedly the better  
fusion plants at TL12?  Who cares if TL11 fission plants are 
better than TL11 fusion plants? 
 
                         --Cynthia 

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 29 Jun 1996 14:01:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Rafm Miniatures

>Is there any word on whether RAFM will produce miniatures for IG (either
>starships or people)? They don't seem to reply to mail - do they have a
>Net page or email address?? 

Rafm is talking to Imperium Games.  The chap I spoke to said things were
positive, and that they had a good feeling about IG's commitment to
Traveller.  

Their current line is still available at 1995 prices (given in Challenge 77).
 They have just moved, so will not ship any orders until late July, but their
address is:

Rafm
20 Parkhill Road East
Cambridge, Ontario
Canada

No net address, but you could phone them.  (Use directory assistance - I
don't have the number here now.)

I have (or have on order) all their miniatures.  Their prices are terrific
(remember $1 US = $1.5 Cdn), and they ship the same week -- I can post an
order on Thursday and have it in my classroom the next Wednesday!

------------------------------

From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 15:17:23 -0500
Subject: ORIGINS warning

Hello,

I just spoke with a friend who lives in the greater Columbus metro area, and 
he warned me that Columbus usually has it's fireworks display on JULY 3rd, so 
as not to conflict with the local displays in the surrounding communities.  

It is a very large display that "doubles the population of Columbus for a few 
hours."  It is done somewhere downtown (the Conv. Center is downtown also), 
and they often CLOSE STREETS sometime after rush hour.

So, if you are going to Origins on Wednesday night, you might want to think 
about arriving earlier rather than late.

CAVEAT:  This friend thinks it is on July 3rd this year, but he doesn't 
remember a specific date, so it may be on Friday, July 5th.  If that is the 
case, then this warning is obviously unnecessary.

Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
someday agree with something I say.


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 09:53:25 -0800
Subject: Re: School Lunches

On 29 Jun 96 at 9:22, Douglas E. Berry spewed:

> As I recall, the sector offcials simply took the cost of building a single
> AHL Cruiser from the education budget, and told the Ministry of Education to
> start planning the bake sales.
> 

Actually, the money was contributed directly from school lunch money.

>From Supplement 5: Lightning Class Cruisers:
"The Duke of Regina, speaking for the Marches, proposed that the 
Marches fund one additional ship from its own resources, on the 
condition that the Marches receive the contract to produce a portion 
of the total run.  The school children of the worlds within the 
Marches contributed from their lunch money, at a quarter credit each, 
for the ultimate funding of one ship, and it was named Children of 
the March in their honor."

If this had happened in 20th century US, there'd have been an 
investigation to find out why money from the education budget was 
spent on defense.

I suspect there wasn't much of a flap in the Imperium at the time 
though... :-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 13:03:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Virus ad nauseum

> The virus is a *program*. As such, it consists of machine language
> instructions. Different architectures use different values to encode those
> instructions. So a program for one, can't run on another. It has to be
> translated somehow (and it isn't always possible to translate them!)

For any discrete-state machine (e.g., non-analog) -- yes, it *is* always
possible.  This is the fundamental Turing Theorem, which indicates that
*any* discrete algorithm can be implemented on *any* discrete computing
device with the capabilities of a "Universal Turing Machine" --
essentially, a finite state machine having an infinite store and some
(relatively small) number N of states available.  That "infinite" store is
the sticking point, but in practice for any given algorithm the required
storage is bounded. 

What all this means in practice is that any program can be translated 
from any architecture to any other architecture.  As a worst case, you 
simply build a program which emulates architecture A on architecture B, 
and run A programs on B using *that*.  Interestingly, that's precisely 
what has been done on the recent Atari 2600 games made available for the 
IBM PC -- a modern PC is so much faster than the 2600 was, they just 
rigged up a full 2600 emulator, hardware registers and all, and ran the 
original 2600 game program binaries almost without modification on top of 
it.  Pretty amazing stuff...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 13:09:52 -0800
Subject: Language and the Imperium

>> 3. How intelligible would writing from before the Long Night be to the
>> Syleans? (i.e., is it like Shakespearean english, or like Gaelic, or what?)
JLL:
>As others have mentioned, literacy tends to stabilize language.  Vocabulary,
>idiom, and understood cultural background would be the sticking points.  Try
>reading some 18th century essays to get a feel for what a different style
>of writing (another possibility) might be like.

CB:
>Given the apparent cultural continuity of English-derived Solomani
>languages, I'd expect the Sylean core language of Year 0 would relate to
>pre-Long Night variants approximately as well as modern English does to
>Chaucer.  For purely technical or formal writing, it would be closer to
>Shakespeare, as this tends to rely much less on slang, idiom, and other
>quickly-changing language elements.

In both cases, you're probably overlooking the highly likely different
character set imposed by the intermingling of vilani influences...Where
modern english differs mostly in spelling and clutural ideomatic
expressions (one of shakespear's greatest problems for the modern reader is
his constant punning and slang derived double ententres), Sylean would have
over a millenia of borrowed terms, added characters, and half a milenia of
quasi-isolated evolution...

I assume that there are five "Common Languages" in the late third imperium,
nearly a milenium later than (IIUC) the question refers to... Old HHigh
Vilani, Solomani Anglic, Old Sylean, Galanglic, and Modern Vilani; of
these, Galanglic speakers can converse intelligibly (with great care) with
all but old high vilani... and those who speak modern vilani can converse
(with some care) with those who speak Old High Vilani, a tongue spoken only
within the Vilani Cultureal region, and mostly by the nobility and educated
elites...

If we assume DGP and GDW's flowing arabesque scripts are modern vilani or
galanglic, old texts would be indecipherable to "modern readers", due to
the different character set. And just for reference, the Solmani in My
imperium use the Unifon alphabet (See science 87, don't remember which
issue).

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 29 Jun 1996 17:13:13 GMT
Subject: Re: Deckplans

I use SuperPaint 3.5, which runs on the Macintosh.  It gives me drawing and
painting tools, textures (with the ability to define my own), and makes
reasonably compact files.  (Those 300k GIFs take up 50k in SuperPaint
format.)

List price was around $100 last time I checked.


Oh yeah, the deckplans posted on the Space 1889 Heliograph site look kinda
crappy: all my nice wooden floors show up as black.  I've sent Matt new GIFs,
so check out the site again.

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 14:27:17 -0700
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Co.

At 12:13 PM 6/29/96 -0400, Derek wrote:

>>  No need for that....
>>  After all, I've got a rock dropper<grin>
>
>Did I mention my really big beach umbrella? 8)

So sorry, I'm observing you from the hill, using my Forward Observer-6
skill..  <evil grin>



1=BE


------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 17:31:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Language and the Imperium

Quoth William F. Hostman:
> In both cases, you're probably overlooking the highly likely different
> character set imposed by the intermingling of vilani influences...Where
> modern english differs mostly in spelling and clutural ideomatic
> expressions (one of shakespear's greatest problems for the modern reader is
> his constant punning and slang derived double ententres), Sylean would have
> over a millenia of borrowed terms, added characters, and half a milenia of
> quasi-isolated evolution...

I doubt that Galanglic uses a variant character set.  Given that Galanglic
is descended from Anglic, which is evidently English plus assorted other
Terran-language influences (most of which probably use the Latin alphabet:
Arabic is just not going to be that influential, Chinese is just ideographs
so far, Japanese katakana and Slavic cyrillic characters are already 
readily and frequently transliterated), the Galanglic character set will
almost surely (IMHO) consist of English/Latin letters, possibly with some 
understood variant pronunciations for consonant clusters ("zd", etc.)
representing transliterations from Vilani, Sylean, Luriani, or whatever
else gets picked up along the way.  Okay, I might grant you a French 
cedilla, a Spanish tilde, and maybe a few other assorted accents and
modifiers.  Maybe even a few "new" letters in some dialects to simplify
combinations like "sh" and "th".  But the basic structure and character
of the alphabet, particularly if literacy isn't lost during the Long
Night, should remain constant.

English changed so much after the Norman occupation precisely _because_
there was no written form of the language (in fact, that's when we got
rid of all our declensions!).  The Second Imperium is likely to be a
two-tier language system, using both Anglic (for upper-level dealings)
and Vilani (for dealings with occupied populaces), with those who want
to advance in society learning the occupiers' language.  Thus it's much
like the eighteenth/nineteenth-century colonial empires.  But each language
will maintain its original alphabet, and change only in vocabulary and
style.

> I assume that there are five "Common Languages" in the late third imperium,
> nearly a milenium later than (IIUC) the question refers to... Old High
> Vilani, Solomani Anglic, Old Sylean, Galanglic, and Modern Vilani

Actually, I think MT materials differentiated between assorted dialects 
of Galanglic: Riftian (Deneb, etc.), Transform (Antares), um, ?Core?,
and Rim (Solomani Rim and Old Expanses).  Modern Vilani incorporates
many other influences, and Old High Vilani is the original, First-
Imperium dialect.  Old Sylean was never heard of until Lucan's 
pronouncements (which I never quite understood).  Likewise, the Darmine 
cultural region maintained its original language (which was from a
minor race with millenia of independent and uninfluenced development).

> If we assume DGP and GDW's flowing arabesque scripts are modern vilani or
> galanglic, old texts would be indecipherable to "modern readers", due to
> the different character set. And just for reference, the Solmani in My
> imperium use the Unifon alphabet (See science 87, don't remember which
> issue).

I'd very much like to see the Unifon alphabet.  How about a web page?
The illustrations probably are of Vilani (or, actually, just deliberately
"alien" so the artist doesn't have to distract the viewer with mundanities
like "Restrooms", "Customs", and such).

On this same note, has anyone else noticed that the Vilani language, as 
presented in CT and MT materials, contains no letter "V"?  The published
language tables allow initial consonants K, G, M, D, L, SH, KH, N, S, P, 
B, Z, and R.  I've always wondered if we should be talking about the 
"Bilani" from "Bland" instead....  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 96 18:11:14 -0600
Subject: But Why?

On 06/29/96 at 11:29 AM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:

>        EVERY SINGLE IMPERIAL SHIP HAD A COMMON INTERFACE AT THE
>TRANSPONDER! And other states' ships which dealt in the Imperium were
>required to have them as well.

>        So Virus was GUARANTEED that it had an entry point into a
>ship's system which it understood and knew. And it was GUARANTEED
>that that entry point was capable of supporting an AI Virus. From
>there it was a matter of entering the rest of the ship's system.

I'm with you up to this point, but here's where I've always had the
real problem...and not just Virus, but all the way back to CT. 

>Since the transponder, in order to perform its function of reporting
>where a ship had been, what it had done, etc. already had access to
>the rest of the ship's computers...

Why? Why? Why!

I *know* the transponder performed IFF.  I know the canon 3I
*required* it on ships.  I know, I know, but I'm sneaky, paranoid, and
distrustful...so are my players..we NEVER liked transponders, we never
trusted transponders.  There's no way we'd give a transponder any
*real* access to the ship's systems, not in my universe anyway.  <g> 

We didn't want authorities knowing where we'd been, what we'd been
doing, even exactly who we were most of the time.  I remember the very
first session where I brought up the required transponder for IFF, and
the players *immediately* started looking for ways to isolate and
spoof it.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #187
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 30 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 188

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: [T96#174] World-building
         2. Joe finally gets SSDS!
         3. Re: Language Questions.
         4. Re: Virus
         5. Re: Overexplaining technology
         6. Re: Sylean Exploration Co.
         7. Re: But Why?
         8. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
         9. Re: Deckplans
        10. Re: Virus, Netiquette, Miniatures
        11. Re: Fission Reactors
        12. Re: Overexplaining technology
        13. Piracy
        14. Virus rocks
        15. Re: Help!
        16. Re: Virus rocks
        17. Re: The Danelaw
        18. Re: school lunches
        19. Re: Piracy
        20. Computer Security - Advice Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 96 19:52:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#174] World-building

T::>Here's a couple of non-Traveller resources for Traveller referees:

T::>Worldbuilding: A writer's guide to contructing star systems and
 ::>life-supporting planets
 ::>Dr. Stephen L. Gillett
 ::>Writers Digest

T::>Aliens and Alien Societies: A writer's guide to creating extraterrestrila
 ::>life-forms
 ::>Stanley Schmidt
 ::>Writers Digest

 ISBNs?  URLs?  Publisher?  Issues if a periodical?  HOWINHELL DO I
 GET THESE THINGS? <Foaming at the mouth - or maybe just
 drooling...>

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  This is a tagline- whatever that is!

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:29:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Joe finally gets SSDS!

Hi,

I just wanted to let everyone that so kindly assisted me in getting SSDS 
to work with WordPerfect that I've got the printout now. :)

It turns out that WP 6.0 is riddled with bugs, so I had to go plunk down 
more money for the latest version (6.1).  Now importing works just fine. :)

'course, all this delay has caused me to push off doing any real work 
(ship designs, learning SSDS, and completing the Aging house rule, for 
instance).  Hopefully I'll get everything done tomorrow.

Once again, thank you to all those who helped me solve this problem.  It 
means a great deal to me that there are those who will help a Traveller 
in need (even if he DID get blackballed from the Travellrs' Aid 
Society[G]). 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 20:36:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Language Questions.

Hi All. 

Well, my question about language seems to have opened up a bit of a
debate.  Part of the problem seems to have been that my question was a bit
broad (didn't want to give away too much about the adventure :-).  Let me
make a more specific query: If characters from the Sylean Federation
(milieu 0) happened upon a base from the late Second Imperium/Rule of Man
(i.e., just before the Long Night), would they be able to read the signs
and button labels therein? 

Thanks,
Charles.

PS. I would like to see the term Galanglic changed to something else like
Imperial or Sylean.  "Galanglic", to me, has always sounded like a fungus
or something: "Hey George, I think you left your Nobbleburger in the cryo 
unit too long, it's got a nasty bunch of galanglic growing on it..." :-)

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 17:43:54 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus

Well, I can see that the "Thread that never ends" is back to life again. 
 I'm sorry I ever brought this one out of the closet... 8)

I've pretty much come to a number of conclusions about the entire Virus 
issue.

1)  The "Virus is plausable" side will never convince the "Virus is a 
load of bunk" side, other wise.

2) The "Virus is a load of bunk" side will never convince the "Virus is 
plausable" side, other wise.

3) Discussing Virus is kinda like going to "Die Hard" or "Speed" with my 
dad.  "You can't do that to an Elevator!  That's impossible!"  Or 
watching a train movie with my father in law, "see above quote."

Which brings me to one conclusion and one conclusion only.  Those beleive 
in Virus will continue to do so no matter how much the physicists and 
computer scientists argue it is impossible and those who don't beleive 
will continue to disbeleive for their own reasons.

Virus is a plot device, a theoretical concept.  If people wish to discuss 
the possiblities of virus and variations there in, the people who 
disbelieve should allow them to continue on in blissful ignorence, 
there's nothing worse than watching a movie with a technical expert 
beside you, ask my wife she'll tell you all about it.  If the people who 
disbeleive wish to discuss why the whole thing is just so much whooie 
then they should be allowed to do so and never shall the two meet again.

I'm not suggesting a total ban on the subject, if the person you're 
talking to just isn't willing to see your point of view then perhaps it's 
best to just drop it and let things go.  We don't want everyone to get 
off the net remarking on what a total idiot so-'n-so is, its counter 
productive.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:54:01 -0700
Subject: Re: Overexplaining technology

>>Computers were designed in the 1800s. They just didn't have the ability
>>to machine the parts required (these were mechanical systems).

This would be wee Mister Babbage's Difference Engine.  Imagine if this 
thing worked how different the world would be today.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:04:31 -0700
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Co.

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 12:13 PM 6/29/96 -0400, Derek wrote:
> 
> >>  No need for that....
> >>  After all, I've got a rock dropper<grin>
> >
> >Did I mention my really big beach umbrella? 8)
> 
> So sorry, I'm observing you from the hill, using my Forward Observer-6
> skill..  <evil grin>
> Did I mention that it's a camaflauged (god that's awful spelling) 
umbrella that doesn't allow a heat signature to pass through it?

DS

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:06:45 -0700
Subject: Re: But Why?

Eris Reddoch wrote:
 
> I *know* the transponder performed IFF.  I know the canon 3I
> *required* it on ships.  I know, I know, but I'm sneaky, paranoid, and
> distrustful...so are my players..we NEVER liked transponders, we never
> trusted transponders.  There's no way we'd give a transponder any
> *real* access to the ship's systems, not in my universe anyway.  <g>

A lot of ships in the wild's didn't.  That's why they survived the 
collapse.
 
> We didn't want authorities knowing where we'd been, what we'd been
> doing, even exactly who we were most of the time.  I remember the very
> first session where I brought up the required transponder for IFF, and
> the players *immediately* started looking for ways to isolate and
> spoof it.

Aren't player's so predictable.  Mine did exactly the same thing.  8)

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:09:48 -0700
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

Joe Walsh wrote:
 
>So,I've avoided such situations in my own campaigns.  Players stick with
>small ships and small crews (rarely more than one or two NPCs).  It's
>worked for us, anyway.

I've always been into small ships.  I remember playing the Star Trek RPG 
(gash shock) and looking at the crew size and the first words out of my 
mouth were.  

"Crew of 351 eh?  That's 350 people to rise up against me."  

I was 14 at the time. 8)

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 96 21:56:40 -0600
Subject: Re: Deckplans

On 06/29/96 at 05:13 PM,  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob
Prior) said:

>I use SuperPaint 3.5, which runs on the Macintosh.  

Oh well, that's out then, I've got a PC.  

I found an old copy (ver 4.5) of Corel Draw yesterday, I'll give that
a try.  I also found a $3 draw simple houseplans program that saves to
EPS format that might do the trick.  

>Oh yeah, the deckplans posted on the Space 1889 Heliograph site look
>kinda crappy: all my nice wooden floors show up as black.  I've sent
>Matt new GIFs, so check out the site again.

I checked at heliograph last night and the deckplans weren't there. 
It is http://www.heliograph.com/space1889.htm isn't it?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 22:59:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Virus, Netiquette, Miniatures

>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
>
>        I THINK (well, actually, often I don't think) it was Merrick, but my
>memory is more faulty than not (lots of bad sectors not marked off).

What? you don't have a copy of Microsoft's new Neural ScanDisk.  It only
costs $3,000 American dollars (plus forklift rental to offload it at your
home or place of business!)  ;)


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 05:05:24 GMT
Subject: Re: Fission Reactors

On Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:06:57 GMT, Cynthia wrote:

> Why balance it?  Isn't the Sylean edge supposedly the better  
> fusion plants at TL12?  Who cares if TL11 fission plants are 
> better than TL11 fusion plants? 

Ah... but there are no tables for TL11 fission plants and no defined rules for
fission power plants, period.  If TL11 fission plants exist, they might very
well be superior to their TL8 ancestors (and *that much better* than TL11 fusion
plants).  There should be reasons for describing a piece of technology as
"surpassed" (but not necessarily obsolete), just like there was an explanation
why helicopters were surpassed by air/rafts at TL8 (CT) or 10 (TNE).

All that I was asking of Dave Golden was for one or two sentences to be included
in SSDS explaining the downsides of fission power in the Traveller universe.  I
haven't seen anyone design a vessel with a fission power plant with the new
rules yet.  Nor have I seen many vessels built using anything but TL12
technology (to gain the advantages of both fusion "plus" and thruster plates).
If the Imperium is truly at TL11/12 in Milieu 0, it will probably be dedicating
most of its TL12 shipyards to the construction of military vessels, leaving the
lower-tech yards to build the traders, liners, etc.  As a matter of perspective,
the Spinward Marches (circa 1105) had approximately 50 A-class starports... less
than half of them were TL12+ (in an Imperium with a TL of 15).

If the Starships book includes a number of fission-powered TL11 vessels, the
"feel" of the Traveller universe will also be altered.  This will be most
noticeable to players who have been using fuel-scoops on their TL10
Beowulf-class free traders for nearly twenty years (even the fusion plant in
TNE's TL10 version is impossible according to the SSD System  8-)


James W. Lindsay      Vancouver, British Columbia

"WIZARD PARKING ONLY"... All Others Will Be Toad.

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 00:09:21 -0600
Subject: Re: Overexplaining technology

On 06/29/96 at 06:54 PM,  Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> said:

>>>Computers were designed in the 1800s. They just didn't have the abil
>>>to machine the parts required (these were mechanical systems).

>This would be wee Mister Babbage's Difference Engine.  

Don't forget Lady Ada Byron Lovelace, she was an equal, but silent,
partner in the design of the Difference Engine.  

>Imagine if this thing worked...

Not an if, it *would* have worked.  Babbage just needed more money
than he could raise. 

>...how different the world would be today.

I just don't know.  It might have accelerated the development of
computationally intensive research/development items, but it *might*
have retarded the development of other things as well.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 22:47:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Piracy

>From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
>Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:51:10 -0700

>>But modern freighters aren't.  How many deck guns have you seen on 
>>supertankers? 
> 
>There is no piracy threat to speak of to modern merchant vessels.
>If there was, you'd see small deck gun installations and a few
>Gabriel or equivalent SSMs on them.

I'm not sure that analysis is correct.  See Capt. Roger Villar, Piracy
Today:  Robbery and Violence at Sea Since 1980 (1985).  Villar reports on
hundreds of pirate attacks, mostly in coastal waters or ports in the third
world.  

I think that merchant ships don't carry deck guns because the coast guards,
customs departments, and navies of the world want a monopoly on lawful
firepower.  They can at least control the firepower of merchant ships, so
they know that when they want to board a merchant for inspection or
whatever, there won't be a Exocet surprise (nor even a 40mm Bofors).  They
can't control the pirates, of course, but they expect to shoot and be shot
at in those encounters.

I haven't looked up the law, but I'll bet that U.S.-registered merchant
ships are limited in weapons to what their personnel may legally carry,
which is very small small arms.  The rest of the world is probably more
restrictive.

Another factor is that much of the piracy is done by police and naval forces
themselves (again, the examples that I've read of are all in the third
world).  They don't want their victims adequately armed, and get their
governments to support any international agreements on disarming private ships.

Finally, much of modern piracy is of types that serious deck guns won't
deter:  attacks on vessels too small to sport heavy weapons and night-time
boarding operations in or near port by pirates on small boats.  The usual
objective of modern piracy is theft of cargo, not theft of the whole ship.
Ship-stealing is very difficult to make profitable because of extensive ship
registration procedures and dissemination of registry information.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 22:47:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Virus rocks

My biggest complaint about Virus is that no provision was ever made for it
to gain control of asteroids, accelerate them to 0.1c, and slam them into
planets.  My second biggest is that no provision was ever made for PCs to
throw asteroids into the Virus.

------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@worldweb.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 02:21:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Help!

Perhaps you weren't MEANT to unsubscribe...

At 02:56 PM 6/26/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Why can I not unsubscribe? I've tried the following formats....
>unsubscribe traveller
>unsubscribe druid@datatek.com
>unsubscribe traveller druid@datatek.com
>traveller unsubscribe
>ONE of these should work, Right?
>(I'm getting tired of this 145 post / day ratio....)
>
>
>
>
>


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 02:22:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Virus rocks

On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> My biggest complaint about Virus is that no provision was ever made for it
> to gain control of asteroids, accelerate them to 0.1c, and slam them into
> planets.  My second biggest is that no provision was ever made for PCs to
> throw asteroids into the Virus.
> 
> 

But would we need someone with foward observer skill to do that?  


_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 



------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@worldweb.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 02:29:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: The Danelaw

Good analogy!  - Bill

At 11:15 PM 6/27/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>>ps. as I understand it, a lot of English common law dates back to
>>>*Norse* influences. 
>>
>>        Could be.  The common law as such has its roots in the justice
>>dispensed by William the Conqueror's magistrates; given that numbers of
>>Norse settled in the British Isles, I imagine that their legal influence was
>>felt to some degree...  Glenn could probably answer this better than I can.
>
>The part of England conquered by the Vikings was called the Danelaw because
>Danish law was in force there (ca. 700 A.D., I guess).  William the
>Conqueror (1066) led a later Viking invasion of England -- it's just that
>his Vikings had lived in Normandy for a few generations (the French having
>given it or lost it to them).
>
>This sort of layering also occurred throughout Traveller history.  The Rule
>of Man imposed 25th Century Terran law on the Vilani system, etc.
>
>--Glenn
>
>


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@worldweb.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 02:37:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: school lunches

Will the program still consider catsup as a vegetable? - Bill

At 12:10 AM 6/29/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
>>Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 21:00:38 -0500
>>Subject: Imperial Taxes
>
>>ship called the Children of the Marches which was supposedly 
>>funded by the schoolkids in the Spinward Marches donating 
>>.25CR of their lunch money to the construction.  
>
>>So in the 57th Century, they still have school lunches.  Go Figure.
>
>In the 57th Century, they still have kids and they still have cultures.
>Kids still need to be acculturated.  Schools can acculturate kids relatively
>cheaply.  So kids will still go to school.  They'll still spend all day
>there (if only so that their parents can have some freedom from them), so
>they'll still need to eat.  Therefore they'll still have school lunches.
>
>What bothered me is the concept of a sector-wide school lunch program.
>That's the opposite of the hands-off approach normally taken by interstellar
>governmental levels in the Imperium.
>
>--Glenn
>
>


------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 17:15:34 +1000
Subject: Re: Piracy

On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> >From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
> >Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:51:10 -0700
> 
> >>But modern freighters aren't.  How many deck guns have you seen on 
> >>supertankers? 
> > 
> >There is no piracy threat to speak of to modern merchant vessels.
> >If there was, you'd see small deck gun installations and a few
> >Gabriel or equivalent SSMs on them.
> 
> I'm not sure that analysis is correct.  See Capt. Roger Villar, Piracy
> Today:  Robbery and Violence at Sea Since 1980 (1985).  Villar reports on
> hundreds of pirate attacks, mostly in coastal waters or ports in the third
> world.  
> 
Unconfirmed rumors is that while supertankers and other mass shipping do 
not carry mounted weapons, they do use mobile weapons like assult rifles 
and rocket launchers. The law of the sea as far as I know allows this, 
they must be secured in a gun locker while in port. 

Piracy in the third world is a serios problem, especially for Australians 
as a majority of our trade goes past problem areas (Vietnam, Cambodia, 
Malaysia, Philapenes). The repected navies of the area do patrol for 
pirates, but since 80% use small power boats and the areas involved are 
dirt poor, Piracy is a way of life. 

In Traveller, ALL piracy would happen in N-space, so all a pirate would need 
a vessel with m-drive and a big gun. Given the nature of the impirium, 
the nessasary structure for piracy would be in place (corrupt officials, 
small cutters and insystem ships readily available. merchents willing to 
finance the operation). For a good look at piracy and commerce raiding in 
a interstellar society, read David Webber's new book "Honor among Enemies".

Darryl

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 30 Jun 1996 07:11:53 GMT
Subject: Computer Security - Advice Request

I just heard (on the last day of work before summer vacation) that the Board
of Education will be installing a really nice computer network at my school. 
Fibre-optic backbone, four drops per class, 15 megs per student and staff
member capacity in the file server, supports our current Macs, Windows-PCs,
and SGI UNIX workstations.  Will also link in with Board office, so we can
get Internet access, video-conferencing, and attendance and marks can be sent
electronically.  Sounds fun.

Problem is, the A/V tech told me (10 minutes before I left the building) that
there were not going to install security unless there was a proven need (ie.
I could demonstrate that a break-in had occurred).  Now, even though I am the
system administrator I am mainly self-taught (money for equipment and outside
consultants, no money for staff training) and do not know all the fiddly
details.  However, if I understand the technical literature correctly, I
should be able to hook up a packet sniffer and monitor the network for
administartion-level passwords.  (No zone segmentation, and no physical
security on unconnected drops.)

I'm off on holiday today, back Thursday, leave again Sunday, back in August. 
They plan to start installing in August.  And all my manuals are now locked
up (because I'm officially on holiday).

If any of you know details about network security, could you please email me
(rob_prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca) with some suggestions?  Given the
program head's attitude towards student hackers ("He's really smart, and he's
promised not to do it again, so we're giving him another chance.") I can
count on having several known destructive hackers. As I will be teaching a
full load of classes (and developing two new courses while doing so) as well
as running the network, I won't have a lot of spare time during the winter. 
But something in me says that they need better security when they are keeping
attendance and marks records on the same system that students use for their
work.  If I can give my non-technically-inclined principal a list of security
holes and possible fixes by Friday she will have some ammunition when the
paid consultants say "wait for the problem before fixing it". (They get paid
once the system is installed, and promised support is really lacking.)

Sorry for bothering the list with this.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #188
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 30 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 189

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Automatic subject header
         2. Re: Rule of law
         3. Re: MMT Adventure Questions.
         4. Re: Fission Reactors
         5. Because
         6. Re: Anagathics NOT
         7. Re: MMT Adventure Questions.
         8. Re: MMT Adventure Questions.
         9. Re: Fission Reactors
        10. Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!
        11. Re: Fission Reactors

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 12:45:41 
Subject: Re: Automatic subject header

Hello Tom, on Jun 22 you wrote:

> [Subject line suggestion]
> eg.  My subject line would be:
>
> [TRAVELLER] Automatic subject header
>
> This would be extremely useful in filtering mail through an automatic
> program, but I'm not sure\don't think it's possible.  Can anyone fill=
=20me in?
>
=20 I find that the "Sender:" line serves this purpose admirably. The l=
ine for
all traveller mailing list mail reads:
Sender: owner-traveller@MPGN.COM

=20 XBoat, and GDW-Beta also have this line. It uniquely identifies the=
=20source
of the message. Maybe your mailing software can separate the messages o=
ut on
this basis?

BFN,

James Dempsey
- ---------------------------------------------
=20email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
=20homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 96 20:03:56 PST
Subject: Re: Rule of law

sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin) writes:

> In our discussions about legal systems we mostly talked about legal systems,
> not legal cultures.  PCs of course deal with the culture directly.  For
> example, in the United States and Western Europe, as well as in many other
> places, people basically believe in the law.  That is, for example, if the
> law says that the government must do X when someone presents it with
> enumerated facts, the people expect that the government will either do X or
> give a real explanation why not.  

Other, related cultural differences can "get" players too.

As you point out, the government may turn out to be a "government of
men, not laws". But it's also possible to have a legal system of
*either* type where the bureaucracy is important. For example, there
are places right here on earth where it is not merely *expected* that
you slip officials some money to expedite your business, but where that
is how they get paid!

This *isn't* bribery. It's perfectly legal under their laws. But
picture the poor player who doesn't realize that the customs inspector
*lives* off his "tips". The official won't refuse to inspect the cargo,
that'd be illegal. But he sure as hell will put you at the end of the
list! 

For that matter, offering the guy a *bribe* (ie trying to pay him to
ignore the rules) could get you in serious trouble! That's a
distibction most Westerner's just don't get. And from the outside it
*does* look a lot like the "laws don't matter, people do" type of
place. 

Or picture them trying to deal with something like the Chinese Mandarin
system. That system would fit under *several* different goverment types
and law levels. The main focus is the status quo, thus *procedure*
(ritual, if you will) is more important than anything else. If you
think the bureaucrats in *our* government agencies can get picky, you
ain't seen nothing yet.

Yet depending on the "legal culture", they might well accept money to
let you break the rules. But trying to get them to *expedite* something
may get you in trouble. :-)

BTW, the "mandarin" types quite likely have established procedure
(which must be followed!) for bribing them! 

Scene: Some starport...
Confused PC: "Charlie?"
   other PC: "Yeah?"
Confused PC: "Ok, I understand this book. It's the customs procedures.
	      But this other one seems to contradict it!"
   other PC: "Oh, that's the procedures for getting *around* the
              customs procedures. Don't forget to check the fee
              schedule in back...."




Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 96 20:34:59 PST
Subject: Re: MMT Adventure Questions.

Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> writes:

> 2. What's the densest substance one is reasonably likely to find in large 
> natural deposits (uranium?)?

The densest *elements* are osmium and iridium. Platinum and several
other elements aren't far behind. Since platimum, osmium and iridium
are all "noble metals" and chemically similar to boot, they tend to be
found mixed in nuggets. Figure the density to be in the neighborhood of
20-23 g/cc.

Other dense items are gold (19.3), mercury (13.6) and lead (11.3). But
only gold is likely to be found as anything but ore. 

Most ores are a lot less dense. Still, ores of heavier elements tend to
be denser than average rocks. I have some chunks of "peacock ore"
(copper/silver ore) that are almost as heavy as a chunk of iron the
same size! Galena is pretty dense too.

Uranium ore isn't quite so dense, but I think that's because it tends
to be more complex silcates rather than simple sulfides or oxides.

Given *normal* elemental abundances, I'd say that copper/silver/etc
ores are the most likely to be found in big deposits. (A lot of these
may have started out as "black smoker" fields at mid-ocean rifts).

Another source of big, dense items is the buried remains of nickel-iron
meteors. The Sudbury nickel mines in Ontario are thought to be such a
deposit. 

Now these are the answers for a "normal" planet. For something closer
to the star (like Mercury), the *average* density goes *way* up, simply
because all the lighter elements have been baked out.

Asteriods could be anything. And if they are the remains of a planet
(even a smaller one) that got disrupted by tidal forces or the like,
you may find fragments of deep mantle or even core material. These will
be *very* dense rocks. Not as dense as platinum or gold (unless it was
a *big* planet, which is hard to justify the breakup of), but pretty
dense, Such minerals may contain crystals not found elsewhere. They
could be gemstobes, or have special applications (Murray Leinster had
a story where crystals from the core/mantle boundary area where
required for the thruster plate type drive in the story).

> 3. How intelligible would writing from before the Long Night be to the 
> Syleans? (i.e., is it like Shakespearean english, or like Gaelic, or what?)

Look at it this way. it's 1996 now. Shakespeare was mid 1600s and is
quite readable (in fact, he's considered to be using "modern" English).
But Chaucer, back in the 1300s or 1400s is Middle English and *real*
hard to read. Go back to 1100-1000 and you are into Old English (aka
Anglo-Saxon) and it isn't readable at all. 

On the other hand, If you can read modern Spanish you can make a pretty
good stab at Latin. For French, Italian, etc (the other Romance
languages) it's a bit harder. Yet that's a 2000 year span!

Writing slows down language changes. Sound record should slow down
*pronunciation* changes.

It depends on circumstances. Given the few terms in Galanglic we have
from older versions of Traveller, I'd say that anyone familiar with
Anglic (as I believe it was called at year 0) could read even modern
English with less trouble than we have with Chaucer.

Given the conservatism of the Vilani, I suspect it won't have changed
enough to notice.

*However*, the above only applies to places that have maintained a
relatively high tech level the whole time. If the tech level dropped
too far during the Long Night a planet could have a *really*
impenetrable dialect.

Also, while the Syleans will know English/Anglic and Vilani, they may
not know *other* languages that were in use before the Long Night. So
if you need something the players will have fun with, hand them
something in Russian, or better yet, Japanese!

> 4. What is Helium 2, exactly, and does it pose any sort of threat when 
> encountered?

Helium 2 would be an isotope of Helium with 2 protons and no neutrons.
It doesn't exist. :-)

Helium 3 is an isotope of Helium with 2 protons and 1 neutron. It's
probably somewhat radioactive. It makes fusion *much* easier to
accomplish, but it's rare.

Helium II (note the roman numerals!) is a form of liquid helium. It
only forms *very* close to absolute zero. It's a superfluid. It has
*zero* viscosity. This means that (for example) if you have a beaker
half-full of the stuff, it'll crawl up the inside, and flow down the
outside, siphoning itself out of the beaker.! It'll also flow thru
*incredibly* tiny holes and cracks. And it is a superconductor of heat.
You *can't* boil Helium II. Well, you can't get it to "bubble". Instead
it evaporates evenly from the entire surface.

Most of the funny effects are due to it being entirely composed of
Helium 4 (regular helium, 2 protons, 2 neutrons) and cold enough that
quantum effects dominate the interatomic forces. 

Biggest hazard I can see for Helium II is that stepping in a pool of it
would leech heat from your suit faster than hell. It might also be
slippery as hell, though I wouldn't swear to it. You'd probably be safe
from it infiltrating your suit, as long as the inside is warmer than
the He-II.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 96 21:41:34 PST
Subject: Re: Fission Reactors

Edward Baltz <eabaltz@pac2.berkeley.edu> writes:

> This is a case where they really didn't think through the implications of the
> technology.  With nuclear dampers, the strong and weak nuclear forces can be
> manipulated on large scales.  Put your reaction vessel in a big nuclear dampe
> box and PRESTO! Lead 206 is fissile!  Or any other heavy "stable" element.
> Even with the available safety features that make disasters unlikely, if
> something starts to go wrong, just kill the power to the nuclear damper and y
> have a lump of really hot lead.  Ooooh, real dangerous.  This is even ok by
> energy conservation.  Lead releases energy if its split, it just wont split b
> thermal neutrons.  This is where the damper comes in.

Anything heavier than iron could be split this way. Howver, the closer
to iron (Fe 56) the *less* energy you can get from a given mass of
material. To get the total energy extractable, figure the number of
nucleons in the mass, divide by 56. Then multiply the result by the
mass of a Fe 56 atom. The difference between the starting and ending
figure is the mass that can be converted into energy.

However, you made one slight goof. it's unlikely that the nuclei will
*fission*. Fisssion is an uncomon decay mode. Instead, you are likely
to get a lot of alpha and beta decay chains. Thus, getting the amiount
of energy from the calculation in the previous paragraph is difficult,
if not impossible.

> This is also a great way to make fission warheads.  Take a lump of lead and a
> nuclear damper.  Detonate by making Lead 206 really unstable, decaying by
> spontaneous fission.  Pretty simple.

Actually, the best way is to take some transuranic elements and
stabilize them with the damper field. A good choice would be
Californium 254. This is a fissionable element with a critical mass of
less than an *ounce*! Picture the results when the missile impacts,
destroying the damper, and leaving several hundred *kilos* of it
sitting there. :-)

> I don't know exactly what the canon says about the capabilities of nuclear
> dampers, but it seems that they can do enough different things so that even
> wierder things are possible.

Neutralize the weak force to the point that free neutrons won't decay.
Feed neutrons into the field. With a little help from gravatics, you
should be able to get a fairly dense "neutron gas", possibly even a
liquid. I don't think even TL 15 is up to creating neutronium. In any
case, when you drop the field on *this* the results should be
gratifying, especially if you *reverse* the field just as you implode
the contents.

I figure the result would be *all* the neutrons converting to an
electron, proton, and anti-neutrino. The densely packed hydrogen
*can't* fuse until the damper field drops. If things are set up right,
that'll happen at maximum density, and the result ought to make a
regular hydrogen bomb look tame.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 05:41:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Because

Thus spake eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch):

> On 06/29/96 at 11:29 AM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:

[snip]
 
> >Since the transponder, in order to perform its function of reporting
> >where a ship had been, what it had done, etc. already had access to
> >the rest of the ship's computers...
> 
> Why? Why? Why!
> 
> I *know* the transponder performed IFF.  I know the canon 3I
> *required* it on ships.  I know, I know, but I'm sneaky, paranoid, and
> distrustful...so are my players..we NEVER liked transponders, we never
> trusted transponders.  There's no way we'd give a transponder any
> *real* access to the ship's systems, not in my universe anyway.  <g> 

Because the Imperial Powers That Be wanted it that way.  They wanted a 
transponder system that could not be spoofed (at least by civilians).  
They wanted a system that could give an ironclad guarantee that the ship 
identified by the transponder was actually the ship identified by the 
transponder.  In order to bring this about, they undertook their 
painstaking development of the SDG transponder chip strain that would 
give them this ironclad guarantee.  Want more detail?  Read all about it 
in "Survival Margin."

Now, the SDG transponder suite, standard equipment on every ship built 
within the Imperium as of 1086, and required for any 'alien' ship wanting 
to travel within Imperial boundaries, while not reprogrammable, 
alterable, or aliasable, could be turned off.  Of course, the next time 
you switched it back on, it'd scream to high Heaven to anyone who cared 
to listen that you had done so.  In the interests of keeping an eye out 
on civilian ships and minimizing the incidence of such crimes of commerce 
as barratry and piracy, Imperial authorites required that the SDG 
transponder suite be wired directly into the ship's main computer which 
was, in turn, wired into everything else from the jump relay governor 
down to the electric can opener in the galley.  This allowed them to 
query a ship's transponder at will to check for 'irregularities.'  Of 
course, they never did mention the true nature of these black-boxed 
'honest brokers,' and most people went on believing that all they did was 
send out an occasional 'squawk' with the ship's name and registry code, 
rather than engaging in constant and intimate chatter with every other 
transponder suite within radio range.

To more effectively understand the SDG transponders, and their 
relationships to the Virus phenomenon, you really need to give "Survival 
Margin" another read.  I suspect that it's a resource that many of the 
more dogmatic and rigid Virus Debunkers(TM) have done without.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 96 23:57:54 PST
Subject: Re: Anagathics NOT

jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN) writes:

>   I've read in SF of three processes for achieving extended life
>   artificially (i.e., not evolving into it, and not considering
>   brain transplants into robots, or downloading oneself into the
>   net).
 
>   First, is the Anagathic.  This is the method used in Traveller,
>   and in the _Cities_in_Flight_ novels by James Blish.  Using this
>   method, there is a regimen of drugs that are taken that
>   counteract the physical effects of aging.  I disfavor life
>   extension through this method because (a) the drugs themselves
>   must be incredibly complex, to ensure that any side effects of
>   screwing around with certain physiological processes are
>   counteracted - and this still means that the subject is taking a
>   _hell_ of a lot of stuff;

Not necessarily. The main things that need to be fixed are actually
rather simple.
1. prevent or repair errors in cell division (note that this would have
   the side effect of being a damn good treatment for radiation
   exposure!)
2. remove the limit on the number of cell divisions
3. prevent unwanted cell divisions (ie most cancers)

Note that the research required to accomplish 2 & 3 will likely either
given us regeneration or prove it's not possible.

> (b) the brain chemistry problem - the
>   so-called blood/brain barrier _has_ to continue to exist -
>   otherwise, you're gonna come across some sort of nasty bug that
>   exploits the same mechanism that your anagathic does, and that's
>   when you first find out what trouble is;

The blood/brain barrier is *already* crossed by lots of drugs, and even
some prions and viruses. More to the point, it may turn out that they
have to somehow get some of the anagathics *past* the barrier because
they won't go *through* it. That makes that part of the treatment
rather non-trivial!

> (c) logically, it must
>   be unavailable (legally) to the PCs, or else it must be so common
>   that _everybody_ can get them.  This is because if the supply is
>   limited, it will be scarfed up "at any price" by those who have
>   the most money - like the Imperial Family, and the families that
>   control the biggest MegaCorps.  They'll hoard the stuff against a
>   possible future shortage, and the entire output will be spoken
>   for before it's produced.  If this isn't the case, then it must
>   be because the production level is so high, and there are so many
>   producers, that it becomes simple to locate the stuff, and the
>   likelihood of running out and being unable to get the next dose
>   is slim to none - and slim may just have left town.  Anything
>   in-between results in the hoarding scenario;

There's a fourth alternative, and it dates back to Jonathan Swift and
"Gulliver's Travels". Read up on the Struldbrugs. They were immortal.
So to avoid the problems that go with people living forever, their
society forbade them to own property or run businesses. 

While the background we have doesn't support such a policy, it doesn't
absolutely forbid it either. Make anagathics either illegal or make the
result of being known to use them (I'm sure simple tests could detect
them) not being allowed to own "real property" (including things like
ships), or accumulate more than a limited amount of money.

>   The second method is the \deus ex machina\.  The "canonical"
>   example to me is Niven's _A_World_Out_Of_Time_.  In this method,
>   you have what is essentially a very selective matter transmitter
>   that simply poofs away all of the accumulated crud collectively
>   known as products of aging, allowing the body to go back to
>   functioning at full efficiency for the next seventy years or so.
>   Now, 'splain to me how a brainless machine can distinguish the
>   "crud" from the same chemicals serving a useful purpose in a
>   living body - that stuff's gotta come from somewhere...  This
>   doesn't work for me.

The "crud" is either the right chemicals in the wrong place or
chemicals that *shouldn't* be there but build up over the years because
the body doesn't get rid of them (I've read that the later actually
*is* one of the mechanisms of aging!). So the machine can tell the
difference. 

A similar method is the nanotech method. Little nanomachines (or
tailored virii, bacteria, etc) swarming around your body. They'll have
a record of your DNA, and anytime they find something that doesn't fit
they'll either patch it or destroy it. 

This one is interesting in that it has a real, but reasonable
disadvantage. First, it makes organ transplants a no-no. It also makes
whole blood transfusion a lot less effective (the white cells *will* be
destroyed as quickly as possible, the red cells don't have DNA, so they
may be allowed to hang around a fair while).

And the energy used by the nanomachines or critters has to come from
you, so you need more food.  In low food conditions, they may have to
partially or fully shut down.

It's also possible to get the equivalent of an auto-immune disease if
the template they work from gets corrupted. That may be why you need
periodic "refreshers". And why skipping them is not a good idea.

>   The third and final method is represented in a book called
>   _Buying_Time_, author disremembered.  The basic theory here is
>   that they clone almost everything - organs, skin, muscle, et
>   cetera, and then rebuild you practically from the ground up.
>   The process requires a noticeable chunk of time, and a large team
>   of medical professionals specifically trained in the process.
>   There's also a significant amount of near-continuous pain, and
>   since you've got to be conscious for some parts of the process,
>   there is mental trauma as well.  So, in order to ensure that you
>   come out of the process as sane as you went in, there is a
>   treatment that "wipes", or perhaps suppresses, your memories of
>   the process.
<snip>
>   (you'll come out cured - and that includes cured of genetic
>   nasties like diabetes, tay-sachs, sickle-cell, and so on)?

No you won't. Not if they are "cloning" (actually the proper term would
be "culturing") replacements from your own tissues. The gene defects
would still be there. And in the case of some (like sickle cell) it's
not even a matter of "cumulative damage". It's that something is being
produced improperly and it gums up the works.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 00:29:48 PST
Subject: Re: MMT Adventure Questions.

Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net> writes:

> The densest material you'll find in reasonably pure metallic form is gold,

Nope, platinum nuggets (with a fair amount of iridium and some osmium).
Drove the Spanish *nuts*, trying to figure out why some of the Inca
silver wouldn't melt! Ditto for their prospectors trying to do
something with the "silver nuggets" from the riverbeds. :-)

> The densest stable element is 
> osmium, but it's rare, and will tend to be found in compounds (ores) 
> which reduce its net density.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe that any of the platinum group
metals have "ores" in the sense being chemical bound with some other
element. I'm *real* sure about platinum, iridium and osmium. 

> > Hah!  Now that should get you all wondering! :-)
> 
> Oldest trick in the book, that.  Two days before a gaming session, start 
> asking your players odd, disconnected questions..."Hey, what's the speed 
> of a shock wave in granite?" "How many wasp stings do you think it would 
> take to kill a human?"...drives 'em nuts. :)

Or ask to look at their character and equipment sheets during the game,
roll dice at odd moments and smirk a lot. :-)

I once *seriously* considered buying a wastebasket size paper-shredder
that was on sale *just* to be able to do this:

Player: Ok, what happened?
    Me: Let me see your character sheet...
        <feed it to shredder as player stares at me... >

But I figured I'd get lynched. :-)

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 00:39:23 PST
Subject: Re: MMT Adventure Questions.

Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com> writes:

> could go for the ultra-rare bugaboo of later Traveller, the room-temperature
> superconductor Omnesium (atomic number 119, undiscovered).

Hmm. I dunno about "omnesium", but there has been (or at least *was*)
some speculation that metallic hydrogen, once formed would be stable
under normal conditions (much like diamond). It was also thought that
it'd probably be a room temp superconductor. Estimated density was only
1/10th gram per cc though. 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 00:58:54 PST
Subject: Re: Fission Reactors

John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu> writes:

> > > > ...Maybe explain why you'd want to use TL9-11 Fusion plants when TL8 Fi
> > > > plants are cheaper & smaller (ie: what are the game effects to using fi
> > > 
> > > A flying Hanford (you know, the site in SW Washington that is leaking all
> > > sorts of grotesque things into the Columbia...)
> > 
> > I know that *we* all know the answers to these questions (like # of spinal
> > mounts), but newbies to Traveller might not.  Anyways, *rules* (a few sente
> > at most) for fission disasters might be a good idea.
> 
> 	For combat, you could say that a hit on a fission reactor gives 
> an additional crew hit, or something.

More than some percentage damaged, or certain types of damage should
render the reactor inoperable until they can get to a shipyard equipped
to handle fission reactors.

It's a great power source as long as you don't break it. :-)


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 01:11:05 PST
Subject: Re: SSDS PROOFREADING CRITICAL!

jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) writes:

> I know that *we* all know the answers to these questions (like # of spinal
> mounts), but newbies to Traveller might not.  Anyways, *rules* (a few sentenc
> at most) for fission disasters might be a good idea.

Another one that just occured to me. The most practical bulk moderator
for a reactor that has to be operated in conditions ranging from
several g to free fall is gonna be graphite. It's relatively cheap,
strong enough to not need special supports (though not strong enough to
use for any load bearing purposes). It resists high temps, etc, etc.

You *can't* use liquids in a reactor like this. At least not outside of
carefully designed piping. So it'll not resemble US reactors *or* the
common Canadian CANDU heavy water reactors. Free fall and the
possibility of accelerations at odd angles just won't allow all that
water (or any other fluid).

That means it's going to look more like Russian reactors.

So, what's the biggest risk if something goes wrong? *Fire*! If the
reactor overheats, the graphite will burn. Just like in Chernobyl. So
will the fuel if the fire gets to it.

Sure, you'd keep oxygen away from the reactor. But if the ship is
damaged, you can't guarantee that.




Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 01:22:39 PST
Subject: Re: Fission Reactors

cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic) writes:

> Fusion reactors are assumed to operate normally, without 
> special rules for disasters.  So should fission reactors; 
> a properly designed fission reactor is far safer than 
> any other known power generation technology.   

True. But we *are* talking about battle damage here. That makes a
difference. Fusion (at least any scale that'll fit into a ship) stops
if you break the reactor. Fission keeps going until you get the control
rods in, and can continue even then if things are messed up enough.

It won't go "boom". It isn't going meltdown in the "normal" way,
because as I noted in another message only an idiot would use a "pool
of liquid" as the moderator in a spaceborne reactor. 

So, it's possible that the reactor could do a thermal runaway. Not too
big a problem, you cut thrust and if you can't get the control rods
working, it just melts into a spherical mass of crud in the middle of
the confinement (ain't free fall wonderful).

If the thing catches fire (given that graphite is a likely moderator)
you vent the area to space. Then you get the cause of the fire under
control. 

If it gets busted into chunks that stay in the ship, then you have a
messy radiation hazard. 

I think those pretty much cover the possibilities. 

One fact worth noting is that if any of these happen the odds are good
that you can't repair it yourself. If it was a fire and controlled
quickly, then you make be able to fix it, depending on how much spare
graphite you have.

If presented as above, I don't think anybody knowledgable would have
much to complain about. And you might actually get across to a few
players that reactors are pretty safe.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #189
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 30 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 190

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: FF&S Light
         2. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
         3. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
         4. Re: Virus rocks
         5. Re: Virus rocks
         6. Aging Rule (version 1.0)
         7. Re: Imperial citizens and taxes
         8. Re: Virus by Email
         9. Re: Rational Discussion
        10. Re: Overexplaining technology
        11. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
        12. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
        13. Re: Virus rocks
        14. Re: But Why?
        15. Re: Fission Reactors
        16. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #188

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 02:01:57 PST
Subject: Re: FF&S Light

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> writes:

>         Rich Text Format (RTF) is generally considered a portable format ...

For future reference, here's a list of what the conversion program that
comes with WP 5.1 accepts:

*1	Revisable-Form-Text (IBM DCA Format)
	Final-Form-Text (IBM DCA Format)
	Navy DIF Standard 
	WordStar 3.3 
	MultiMate Advantage II 
*2	Seven-Bit Transfer Format 
	WordPerfect 4.2
*2	Mail Merge to WordPerfect Secondary Merge
	Spreadsheet DIF to WordPerfect Secondary Merge
	Word 4.0 
	DisplayWrite 

*1 this is not equivalent to MicroSloth's RTF format!
*2 WordPerfect only formats

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 01:48:53 PST
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> (I'm wearing my asbestos undies and kevlar vest so do you worst.)

Derek's head explodes, and as he slumps to the ground a loud Crack! is
heard in the distance.....

(Vest and undies don't help against snipers. They go for the head. And
with a .50 sniper rifle, nothing short of battle dress would help
anyway. :-)



Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:25:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> I've always been into small ships.  I remember playing the Star Trek RPG 
> (gash shock) and looking at the crew size and the first words out of my 
> mouth were.  
> 
> "Crew of 351 eh?  That's 350 people to rise up against me."  
> 
> I was 14 at the time. 8)

Hehehe.  :)   Players are a suspicious, paranoid lot.  And it's a proven 
fact that they have no need to be.  The chance of any given player 
getting into a dangerous situation is so small as to be of no consequence.

Now, Player Characters on the other hand . . . :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:41:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Virus rocks

On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:

> > My biggest complaint about Virus is that no provision was ever made for it
> > to gain control of asteroids, accelerate them to 0.1c, and slam them into
> > planets.  My second biggest is that no provision was ever made for PCs to
> > throw asteroids into the Virus.
> 
> But would we need someone with foward observer skill to do that?  

No, no, no.  We'd need a special sub-skill:  Virus-Targeting 
Rock-Launching Forward Observation.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:23:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Virus rocks

On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:
> 
> > > My biggest complaint about Virus is that no provision was ever made for it
> > > to gain control of asteroids, accelerate them to 0.1c, and slam them into
> > > planets.  My second biggest is that no provision was ever made for PCs to
> > > throw asteroids into the Virus.
> > 
> > But would we need someone with foward observer skill to do that?  
> 
> No, no, no.  We'd need a special sub-skill:  Virus-Targeting 
> Rock-Launching Forward Observation.
> 

Would that be a cascade skill? 8->


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 09:58:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Aging Rule (version 1.0)

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, John R. Snead wrote:

> Good job Joe-
> 
> I like this system quite a bit.  This seems to give just the right aging 
> rate/TL

Thanks, John.  Here's the complete rule, which I just finished writing:


____________________________________________________________________________
                         Aging in Traveller

Introduction

In the Far Future, it is reasonable to believe the average lifespan will 
be greater than it is now.  I believe the Traveller aging table does not 
do a sufficient job of taking this into account.  While that table 
is very playable (in that it is one of the factors keeping players from 
making characters with unreasonable skill levels), it is not very 
realistic.  On the other hand, there are those who will feel the 
increased average lifespan that the table presented here allows is 
unrealistic.  So, use whichever system you feel most comfortable with.  
At least you have a choice now. :)

The Aging Table presented here was developed based on a conversation I 
had with John Snead and Andrew Boulton.  During the conversation, it 
was noted that using this table will allow players to generate 20-term 
characters who still have 100 years left in which to adventure.  If that 
is not your goal as referee, then the use of survival throws and/or 
referee intervention ("Look, guys, I don't want you to make a character 
that has spent more than X terms in their prior service.") will be 
required.  Personally, I prefer the survival throw/reenlistment throw 
alternative. As always, use what works for you.


About the Aging Table

In creating this new method of determining the effects of aging, I 
found that the use of a six-term interval gave the best results.  During 
each interval, the effects of aging remain the same.  That is, each 
interval has its own aging throw, based on the age of the individual in 
question and the tech level relevant to his situation.  Each subsequent 
interval will increase the probability of deterioration due to aging.
In addition, living at a lower technology level will result in more 
serious aging effects than if one lives at a higher technology level.

While the aging table shows intervals, it is still necessary to make the 
roll once per four-year period, just as in the Traveller rules.  
Beginning at age 34, and each four years thereafter, this table should be 
consulted.  


Using the Aging Table

Step 1: Determine the term's Common Tech Level (CTL).
Based on what the character has been doing for the last four years, 
the referee must decide what tech level of medical services have been 
available to the character.  For instance, an merchant engaged in trade 
between TL-15, Starport A worlds would have a CTL of 15.  A character 
exploring a TL 10 world without having access to medical services of a 
higher tech level would have a CTL of 10.  
Due to the nature of the Traveller game, it will likely come to pass that 
characters will have had experience with a variety of TLs during the term 
just passed.  If that is the case, the referee should use one of the 
averaging methods, such as determining the mean average based on the amount of 
time spent at each tech level, or simply using the tech level most 
frequently encountered by the players.  

Step 2:  Using the Aging Table below, cross-reference the character's CTL 
with his or her age.  This will give the saving throw required to avoid 
the effects of increasing age.  Make note of any DM's that may be 
received based on the character's social standing.

Step 3:  The player must roll the saving throw or greater on 2D for each 
characteristic affected.  During the first two intervals (12 terms), it 
is necessary to roll for a possible loss of: Strength, Dexterity (or 
Agility), and Constitution.  Each interval thereafter, an additional roll 
(for Intelligence) must be made. Each roll is for a possible 1 point 
loss to the characteristic in question. 

Example:  Clocker, a 62-year-old ex-Marine with a UPP of B75879, has spent 
the last four years of his life thusly:  1 year on a mercenary ticket on 
a TL-12 world with TL-13 medical facilities provided to his team by the 
patron (meaning TL-13 is the relevant tech level for this year); 1 year 
on a mercenary ticket on a TL-8 world with TL-13 medical facilities 
provided by the patron (again, TL-13 for this year); 1 year stranded on 
that TL-8 world, left MIA, with only TL-8 facilities available; 1 year 
on a TL-15 world getting some well-deserved R&R.  
The referee rules that the CTL is 13. (The referee may have ruled that 
TL-8 was the most relevant, however, if a major medical emergency had 
occurred during the year Clocker was stranded.  Or, he may have ruled 
that the relevant TL was 12, because the mean average is 12.25.  A 
variety of rulings are possible, and it is completely up to the referee 
how the CTL is determined.  However it is determined, it is necessary 
that the referee be consistent in the method used from term-to-term and 
character-to-character.) 
Clocker's age is then cross-referenced with the CTL, yielding a result 
of 5+ (Interval 2, TL 12-13).  The player rolls 2D for each of Strength, 
Dexterity, and Constitution (since the character is in interval 2, a roll 
for Intelligence loss is not necessary).  The die rolls are: 4, 5, 7.  He 
lost one point of Strength, but did not lose Dexterity or Constitution.  
Thus, his new UPP is A75879.

     
                               AGING TABLE
                              
Six-Term Interval:      1       2       3       4       5       6       7+
Terms:                 4-9    10-15   16-21   22-27   28-33   34-39    40+
Begin Using at Age:     34      58      82     106     130     154     178

                                ROLL REQUIRED TO AVOID POINT LOSS
TL                      
0-1                    10+     11+     12+     12+     12+     12+     12+
2-3                     9+     10+     11+     12+     12+     12+     12+
4-5                     8+      9+     10+     11+     12+     12+     12+
6-7                     7+      8+      9+     10+     11+     12+     12+
8-9                     6+      7+      8+      9+     10+     11+     12+
10-11                   5+      6+      7+      8+      9+     10+     11+
12-13                   4+      5+      6+      7+      8+      9+     10+
14-15                   3+      4+      5+      6+      7+      8+      9+
 

DM's:
      Social Standing:

	  0-4: -1 on saving throw
	  A-F: +1 on saving throw

___________________________________________________________________________

Design Notes:

Below are two tables derived from the one above, which give additional 
data for those who are curious what the effect of using this system will 
be (please note that these values are for an average character, who would 
have a SS of 7, and thus would not receive any positive or negative DM's):

 
Six-Term Interval:      1       2       3       4       5       6       7
Age At End of Interval: 58      82      106     130     154     178     202

                                Average Point Loss over 6-Term Interval
TL                      
0-1                     5       5.5     5.83    5.83    5.83    5.83    5.83
2-3                     4.33    5       5.5     5.83    5.83    5.83    5.83
4-5                     3.5     4.33    5       5.5     5.83    5.83    5.83
6-7                     2.5     3.5     4.33    5       5.5     5.83    5.83
8-9                     1.67    2.5     3.5     4.33    5       5.5     5.83
10-11                   1       1.67    2.5     3.5     4.33    5       5.5
12-13                   .5      1       1.67    2.5     3.5     4.33    5
14-15                   .1667   .5      1       1.67    2.5     3.5     4.33
 
 
Six-Term Interval:      1       2       3       4       5       6       7
Age At End of Interval: 58      82      106     130     154     178     202

                                  Cumulative Average Point Losses
TL                      
0-1                     5       10.5    16.33   22.16   27.99   33.82   39.65 
2-3                     4.33    9.33    14.83   20.66   26.49   32.32   38.15
4-5                     3.5     7.83    12.83   18.33   24.16   29.99   35.82
6-7                     2.5     6       10.33   15.33   20.83   26.66   32.49
8-9                     1.67    4.17    7.67    12      17      22.5    28.83
10-11                   1       2.67    5.17    8.67    13      18      23.5
12-13                   .5      1.5     3.17    5.67    9.17    13.5    18.5
14-15                   .17     .67     1.67    3.34    5.84    9.34    13.67  


______________________________________________________________________________

I hope this is of use . . .


- -Joe                                       
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)






------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:04:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Imperial citizens and taxes

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> Frankly, it would be very surprising if the survivors of Civil War,
> Hard Times, and Virus, wanted to be associated with the Imperium in
> any way...certainly not in form of government.

Oh I agree with you totally.  There's no way any of these people would 
want to be connected in anyway with the policies of any of the Imperial 
factions.  But if you look at Dulinor's ideals, representation, and 
getting involved in the internal polocies of every planet for the benefit 
of all imperial citizens.  This all came to pass.  Though no one would 
admit the idea's came from Dulinor.  They'd probably blame the whole 
thing on the Greeks or some such thing.
 
> The single biggest handicap for the Regency is going to be convincing
> people in the coreward regions of the Imperium that they have truly
> changed...that they aren't just the Imperium in new clothes...  If
> unburdened of this handicap, they'd probably steamroll the RC...

Oh, I think that if the Regency could prove to the RC that they were a 
new pregressive type of government, with a figurehead monarchy.  A 
government, "of the people, by the people, for the people" (I've always 
loved that line in your constitution) they'd have no problem with the RC. 
 The problem is they've got to convince them it is so.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:08:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

David J. Golden wrote:

>         EVERY SINGLE IMPERIAL SHIP HAD A COMMON INTERFACE AT THE
> TRANSPONDER! And other states' ships which dealt in the Imperium were
> required to have them as well.

Which means once it had taken over one Vargr, Alsan Clan X?, Hiver, 
Solomani or Kkree ship.  It could take over any other race X ship like it 
 was an imperial vessel.  It's like the super cockroach theory, if DDT 
doesn't kill it all it's children will be imune to DDT.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:15:40 -0700
Subject: Re: Rational Discussion

David J. Golden wrote:

>That's the crux of GDW's explanation of Virus. It DIDN'T originally
>Transmit a program, and hope the COMPUTER at the other end would be
>compatible and stupid enough to execute it. It used an existing 
>mechanism to alter the TRANSPONDER at the other end, and from there take 
>over the computer. Remember, the transponders were continuously talking 
>to each other.

I think that perhaps the largest problem with discussing Virus is 
realizing that when virus transmit's it's code, it's not computer code 
we're talking about.  It is, for lack of a better term, silicon genetic 
code that allows it to parasitize the chips on the other starship.  The 
more of that code the other starship recieves, the faster the Virus 
develops.

We must remember that the Cymbline Chip, as described in Signal GK, has 
the ability to carve it's circutry patterns on another chip at a distance 
by manipulating the electromagnetic forces around it.  As long as it has 
power it will continue to carve new circuts and develop/

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:19:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Overexplaining technology

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 06/29/96 at 06:54 PM,  Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> said:

> >This would be wee Mister Babbage's Difference Engine.
> 
> Don't forget Lady Ada Byron Lovelace, she was an equal, but silent,
> partner in the design of the Difference Engine.
>I'd say Ada was more probably more than just an equal partner.  She 
developed the programing language upon which all computer would 
eventually become based.  Though this eventually changed over time but 
Ada was the worlds first computer programmer.

Virus is all Ada's Fault!!!  8)

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:30:20 -0700
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:
> 
> > (I'm wearing my asbestos undies and kevlar vest so do you worst.)
> 
> Derek's head explodes, and as he slumps to the ground a loud Crack! is
> heard in the distance.....
> 
> (Vest and undies don't help against snipers. They go for the head. And
> with a .50 sniper rifle, nothing short of battle dress would help
> anyway. :-)

Ahh Crap!!  The headless corpse drags itself into Marvin the Martian's 
all powerful "Re-Integrator" and returns to life. 8)

I've always loved that device.  Marvin the Martian sits atop my monitor 
as stares at me as I write all my letters.  Which explains a lot your 
letters would be pretty strange too if you had to write them while 
someone else was staring at you.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:32:54 -0700
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

Joe Walsh wrote:

> Now, Player Characters on the other hand . . . :)

They just seem to attract it.  I played a GURP's campaign once which had 
a disadvantage to explain this.  "Wierdness Magnet."  I think all PC's 
have this to one extent or another.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:34:25 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus rocks

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:
> 
>>>My biggest complaint about Virus is that no provision was ever made 
>>>for it to gain control of asteroids, accelerate them to 0.1c, and slam 
>>>them into planets.  My second biggest is that no provision was ever 
>>>made for PCs to throw asteroids into the Virus.
>>
>> But would we need someone with foward observer skill to do that?
> 
>No, no, no.  We'd need a special sub-skill:  Virus-Targeting
>Rock-Launching Forward Observation.
> I don't suppose there's a lunch program involved with that skill?  8)

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 09:47:24 -0600
Subject: Re: But Why?

At 06:11 pm 6/29/96 -0600, eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) wrote:
>On 06/29/96 at 11:29 AM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:
>>Since the transponder, in order to perform its function of reporting
>>where a ship had been, what it had done, etc. already had access to
>>the rest of the ship's computers...
>
>Why? Why? Why!

        Because of your second paragraph below.

>I *know* the transponder performed IFF.  I know the canon 3I
>*required* it on ships.  I know, I know, but I'm sneaky, paranoid, and
>distrustful...so are my players..we NEVER liked transponders, we never
>trusted transponders.  There's no way we'd give a transponder any
>*real* access to the ship's systems, not in my universe anyway.  <g> 
>
>We didn't want authorities knowing where we'd been, what we'd been
>doing, even exactly who we were most of the time.  I remember the very
>first session where I brought up the required transponder for IFF, and
>the players *immediately* started looking for ways to isolate and
>spoof it.

        That's EXACTLY why the Imperium required the transponder to have
tamperproof access to the rest of the ship ... so dirty, evil, rotten
Zhodani sympathizers like you couldn't get away with your heinous crimes.

        Note that tamperproof doesn't mean you couldn't tamper with it, just
that the transponder would detect that its connections had been altered.
You've got a miniscule chance of successfully doing it, but if you fail the
Imperium's probably gonna hammer you first chance they get, because the Deyo
chip will squeal like a pig on you.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@rt66.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:02:46 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Fission Reactors

 
> True. But we *are* talking about battle damage here. That makes a
> difference. Fusion (at least any scale that'll fit into a ship) stops
> if you break the reactor. Fission keeps going until you get the control
> rods in, and can continue even then if things are messed up enough.

You won't need the control rods if you have a negative thermal
coefficient pellet-bed reactor.  A friend of mine is working on these at
lanl for space power applications.  The fuel is encased in tiny ceramic
pellets that are doped with neutron moderators.  The neutron cross
section of the pellet walls goes up with temp, so the reactor can't go
above the limiting temp where the shell stops enough of the neutrons.
These things really work, pretty cool.  They're not quite as good at 
making power though since they run at lower temps.
 
> If it gets busted into chunks that stay in the ship, then you have a
> messy radiation hazard. 

Still true.
 
- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 17:32 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #188

In-Reply-To: <199606301126.HAA05476@NS.MPGN.COM>

In message , owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM said:
> From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996
> 20:36:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Language Questions.
>  
> PS. I would like to see the term Galanglic changed to something else like
> Imperial or Sylean.  "Galanglic", to me, has always sounded like a fungus
> or something: "Hey George, I think you left your Nobbleburger in the cryo 
> unit too long, it's got a nasty bunch of galanglic growing on it..." :-)

:-)

IKWYM.

> From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:06:45
> -0700 Subject: Re: But Why?
> Eris Reddoch wrote:
>  
>> I *know* the transponder performed IFF.  I know the canon 3I *required* it
>> on ships.  I know, I know, but I'm sneaky, paranoid, and distrustful...so
>> are my players..we NEVER liked transponders, we never trusted
>> transponders.  There's no way we'd give a transponder any *real* access to
>> the ship's systems, not in my universe anyway.  <g>
>  
> A lot of ships in the wild's didn't.  That's why they survived the 
> collapse.

Except the ones that were mistaken for pirates and destroyed or impounded.

> From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:09:48
> -0700 Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
>  
> I've always been into small ships.  I remember playing the Star Trek RPG 
> (gash shock) and looking at the crew size and the first words out of my 
> mouth were.  
>  
> "Crew of 351 eh?  That's 350 people to rise up against me."  

Oddly enough, there *was* a mutiny last time I played ST.

> From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 00:09:21 -0600
> Subject: Re: Overexplaining technology
> On 06/29/96 at 06:54 PM,  Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> said:
>  
>>>> Computers were designed in the 1800s. They just didn't have the abil to
>>>> machine the parts required (these were mechanical systems).
>  
>> This would be wee Mister Babbage's Difference Engine.  
>> Imagine if this thing worked...
>  
> Not an if, it *would* have worked.  Babbage just needed more money than he
> could raise. 

It *does* work - the Science Museum had it built a couple of years ago.


                      --------=====OOO=====--------
Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #190
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 30 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 191

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Virus rocks
         2. Fatique and Upkeep in TNE
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #188
         4. TL 4 computers
         5. Re: Language Questions.
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #188
         7. SSDS Status
         8. Survival Margin on Virus (long)
         9. Cymbeline Chips
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #190
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #173
        12. Re: Language Questions.
        13. Brilliant Lances vs. Battle Rider
        14. Platinum Ores
        15. Re: Cymbeline Chips
        16. Re: Brilliant Lances vs. Battle Rider

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 12:02:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Virus rocks

On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> Joe Walsh wrote:
> > 
> > On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:
> > 
> >>>My biggest complaint about Virus is that no provision was ever made 
> >>>for it to gain control of asteroids, accelerate them to 0.1c, and slam 
> >>>them into planets.  My second biggest is that no provision was ever 
> >>>made for PCs to throw asteroids into the Virus.
> >>
> >> But would we need someone with foward observer skill to do that?
> > 
> >No, no, no.  We'd need a special sub-skill:  Virus-Targeting
> >Rock-Launching Forward Observation.
> >
> > I don't suppose there's a lunch program involved with that skill?  8)
> 

Good point.  I'll have to email David Golden and Guy Garnett and try to 
work with them on developing new rules, skills, equipment, and programs that 
will fill this gaping void in the rules.  Hopefully, we'll be able to get 
something reasonable out within the next ten days or so.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 12:25:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Fatique and Upkeep in TNE

I'm continuing through TNE, and I've come to the Worlds and Travel 
section.  I /love/ the Fatigue and Upkeep rules.  They really did a 
thorough job on this stuff.

Here's a paragraph from this section:

"The game referee should not bother about minor sleep period deficiencies 
except in instances where fatigue and endurance can both clearly become 
important to a group's activities.  That is, if a group is moving at a 
fairly leisurely pace with plenty of time to catch up on sleep and rest, 
an interrupted night's sleep period is of no great concern, and should 
not be allowed to slow up the game by causing a flurry of paperwork and 
calculations on the part of either the referee or the players." [TNE, p 
199, column 2, paragraph 7.]

Excellent.

I'd expand that and include it in a general section of the book:

"The game referee should not bother about minor effects of game rules.  
In an attempt to provide rules for as many situations as possible, this book 
contains hundreds of different rules which, if all were used all the 
time, would result in a flurry of paperwork and calculations on the part 
of the referee and players, slowing up the game.  Unless it is important 
to the plot, the referee is encouraged to ignore any specific rule or 
group of rules s/he wishes."

I know they included something like that in the referee section, but I 
like the way this is stated.  Don't just ignore the rules you don't like 
or which don't fit into your campaign.  Ignore the rules that are 
bothersome and pointless in terms of furthering the plot.

I can just see some of the old D&Ders I used to know in junior high, with 
a copy of TNE:

Referee:  "You're surrounded by vicious Wombats.  What do you do?"
Fred (PC): "So I pull out my assault rifle and begin firing at them."
Referee:  "So you try to pull out your assault rifle, but you're too tired."
Fred: "What?!?!"
Referee:  "Well, you haven't told me your character has been eating every 
day.  So, your character is starving.  And you never mentioned going to 
sleep, so you're dead tired, too.  Sorry, it's in the rules."

:)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 13:09:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #188

>From: Bill Rutherford <worj@worldweb.net>
>Subject: Re: Help!
>
>Perhaps you weren't MEANT to unsubscribe...
>
>At 02:56 PM 6/26/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>Why can I not unsubscribe? I've tried the following formats....
>>unsubscribe traveller
>>unsubscribe druid@datatek.com
>>unsubscribe traveller druid@datatek.com
>>traveller unsubscribe
>>ONE of these should work, Right?
>>(I'm getting tired of this 145 post / day ratio....)
>------------------------------
>From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
>Subject: Re: Virus rocks
>
>On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>> My biggest complaint about Virus is that no provision was ever made for it
>> to gain control of asteroids, accelerate them to 0.1c, and slam them into
>> planets.  My second biggest is that no provision was ever made for PCs to
>> throw asteroids into the Virus.
>
>But would we need someone with foward observer skill to do that?  

I think we've all been staying up a bit late trying to keep up with the list.  


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 11:14:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: TL 4 computers

Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> wrote:

>> Computers were designed in the 1800s. They just didn't have the ability
>> to machine the parts required (these were mechanical systems).

> This would be wee Mister Babbage's Difference Engine.  Imagine if this
> thing worked how different the world would be today. 

Actually, although Gibson and Stirling's SF novel based on this premise
was called "The Difference Engine," Babbage and Lovelace's fully
programmable design was called the "Analytical Engine."  The DE was a
specialized unit for calculating tables of numeric values using Nth-order
differences -- hence the name.  I think the authors chose this title for
the pun -- "See what a difference this would have made." 

The AE was a fully general computer in the modern sense.  Interestingly,
it used separate program and data stores (so Virus couldn't eat it... ;)). 
Babbage did the hardware side, pushing the envelope of early Victorian 
mechanical engineering to reach the fine tolerances needed to make the 
thing work.  The machinists he trained, though incapable of meeting the 
demands of the AE, took the techniques developed for Babbage and applied 
them to many other projects, accelerating the Industrial Revolution.

Lady Ada Lovelace, Lord Byron's daughter, handled the software side of 
the project.  She single-handedly invented many of the modern concepts of 
computer programming in a series of essays in which she explained how the 
AE would be used.  She also set an important precedent for software 
engineering practice by developing software for an architecture which (a) 
kept changing on a weekly basis, and (b) wasn't actually operational 
until about 70 years after her death. :)

By the way, the programming language Ada is named in her honor.  A 
fitting tribute, in my view.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 13:15:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Language Questions.

Quoth Charles Collin:
> A more specific query: If characters from the Sylean Federation
> (milieu 0) happened upon a base from the late Second Imperium/Rule of Man
> (i.e., just before the Long Night), would they be able to read the signs
> and button labels therein? 

We know the language of the Second Imperium was Anglic, the ancestor of
the Third Imperium's Galactic Anglic => Anglic.  Since the Third Imperium
based itself solidly on descent from the Second, it's likely that the
Sylean Federation used (Gal)Anglic as well.  So my guess would be that,
yes, the explorers could read the signs and labels, assuming that they
don't pertain to knowledge that was lost and then independently rediscovered 
(thus producing new technical terminology) or varied cultural assumptions.

Of course, if the Second-Imperium-era base was founded by one of the ethnic
enclaves that spread out from Earth throughout the Rule of Man, then all
bets are off.  The base indicators might well be in Arabic, or Swahili,
or, hell, Australian Aborigine....
 
> PS. I would like to see the term Galanglic changed to something else like
> Imperial or Sylean.  "Galanglic", to me, has always sounded like a fungus
> or something: "Hey George, I think you left your Nobbleburger in the cryo 
> unit too long, it's got a nasty bunch of galanglic growing on it..." :-)

"Imperial" doesn't work, else what did they call it during the era of the
Sylean Federation?  "Sylean" is the independently-developed common language
of the Sylean human minor race.  I think we want to avoid D&D-esque variants
of "Common" and such... ditto for Harrison-like advocacy of Esperanto.  What
would we call, say, a simplified version of English, something like the Basic
English that Voice of America used for broadcasts?  Heck, perhaps "Basic"
would be a good name, later changed to "Galactic Basic"?  Though that would
tend to abbreviate to "Galbase", which sounds even more fungal to me....

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 15:05:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #188

On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> >From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
> >Subject: Re: Virus rocks
> >
> >On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> >> My biggest complaint about Virus is that no provision was ever made for it
> >> to gain control of asteroids, accelerate them to 0.1c, and slam them into
> >> planets.  My second biggest is that no provision was ever made for PCs to
> >> throw asteroids into the Virus.
> >
> >But would we need someone with foward observer skill to do that?  
> 
> I think we've all been staying up a bit late trying to keep up with the list.  
> 
> 
> Paul  {tiger}
> 
> 

Yes, but I am still thinking about this thread.  Perhaps a large enough
mass of fighters could overpower the virus...that *is* after allthe *only*
way to win a space battle (g).

Ok, sorry, quiet time now.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 12:33:24 -0600
Subject: SSDS Status

        Just talked to Ken Whitman at Imperium Games, and the Starships book
is moving along on schedule for a 1 August release. What this means to us:

        SSDS will be beyond change in a few days. At this point its already
in typesetting and final editing, so the only things that will be considered
are bugs through which you can drive a Mack truck. HOPEFULLY we don't have
any of those.

        Please continue sending errors or questions to me. Thanks for all
your help!
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 14:49:23 -0500
Subject: Survival Margin on Virus (long)

THIS MESSAGE IS NOT INTENDED TO START A FLAME WAR, I JUST WANT TO HEAR WHAT
PEOPLE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE SUBJECT.  I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM BOTH
SIDES OF THE DEBATE.

_Survival Margin_ Quotes on Virus.

1. - "The Cymbeline chips reproduce by impressing their circuitry patterns
         onto existing silicon chips,"

2. - "In 1086, the researchers acheived their goal: the creation of a
         strain of chip -- the SDG-313F series"

3. - "The new SDG-313F transponder system consisted of ... two SDG-313F
         chips."

4. - "Most people are not aware that transponder systems are constantly 
         broadcasting and receiving information"

5. - "In conversing, the chips interactively exchange information from
         their dedicated memory chips, and from their own ship's main
         computer core and databanks, to which the transponders have
         unimpeded access."

6. - "...in 1088, the new transponders became mandatory equipment on
         all spacecraft operating within the Imperial boundaries."

7. - "The SDG circuits were also exported vigorously, ....  Many
         governments ... adapted the system for themselves rather than
         carrying two seperate IFF systems."

8. - "By 1116, the Deyo[SDG] Circuit was ubiquitous within the Imperium
         and along its frontiers, and was well-represented even at the
         core of K'kree and Hiver space."

9. - "...main strengths of the virus ... ability to cut new circuitry,
         i.e., embed itself in hardware, not just software. [Paragraph]
         Upon entering a new system, the first thing that the virus
         would do is ... cut its code into the computer's own circuitry."

10.- "While a virus-infected ship could also easily insert its code
         into other ships by routine computer-controlled communications,
         it was often more convenient to infect them by using the
         constant transponder chatter."

11.- "This also gave the virus a familiar, easily entered location in an
         alien electronics suite in which to 'gestate' while solving the
         riddle of an unfamiliar system."

12.- "One means of infection that was feared by the uninfected was via
         their sensors.  ...this never happened.  ...Any such attempt
         ... would take a very long time indeed."

13.- "...there would always be the computer system that was inaccessible
         to any methon of infection.  In these cases, the virus' credo
         was ... :'If I can't have it, no one can.'"


I'm interested to hear what the computer specialists among us have to say
about the "facts" listed above from _Survival Margin_.  As I said above, my
intent here is not to add fuel to a flame war, only to understand what
others are thinking.  If you don't think you can answer me to the list
without getting flamed, please respond to me in private, but PLEASE RESPOND.
Obviously, I couldn't quote the entire book above, but I think I've chosen
the best parts to convey the idea behind Virus.  I'm very interested in
responces.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 12:16:38 -0800
Subject: Cymbeline Chips

>        Using the transponder chips, it is NOT necessary to have a physical
>interface crawl from one transponder to the other. ALL these chips are
>"bred" from some kind of "living" chip which preyed on other chips REMOTELY!
>No physical connection needed. So, everybody who's arguing about different
>logic systems, microcode architecture, etc. is forgetting one thing:

Wrong... The chips were self mobile, and bred by imprinting their patterns
on a piece of silicon they had come into contact with; they also had
evolved "built in" photocells for power, and had limited magneto-gravitic
mobility. No remotely about it. According to _Signal GK_, they had
developed some radio comm abilities to share "huge" finds of raw materials,
and threat data. Niche: Hunter/Gatherer, as they could also prey upon the
simpler forms of silicate life  in their environment. Note that predation
amongst cymbeline's assorted species of chips was limited to reproductive
needs only, as they were all photocell equipped.

of all the models for virus operation, leonards works.... it allows the
virus to "do what it does", in a logical, timely manner, but also adheres
to cannon on they "deyo"/SDG chips (SDG being the lettering that they have
carried from their chance encounter with a solomani chip labeled SDG
something or other...).

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 13:15:34 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #190

At 12:34 PM 6/30/96 -0400, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:
>
>> (I'm wearing my asbestos undies and kevlar vest so do you worst.)
>
>Derek's head explodes, and as he slumps to the ground a loud Crack! is
>heard in the distance.....
>
>(Vest and undies don't help against snipers. They go for the head. And
>with a .50 sniper rifle, nothing short of battle dress would help
>anyway. :-)

Head shots are too much of a bitch.  The head moves too much to be a
reliable target.  Aim center-mass.  A hit to the center chest with a 7.62mm,
11.4g bullet moving at 792 m/s will ruin your day.  Kevlar below level IIC
will not stop it.

Sorry, but after trying to follow all the computer language and physics
lingo in the list, I couldn't resist the urge to throw my own obscure
terminology into the mix.

Douglas E. Berry

.sig on strike

1=BE


------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 15:19:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #173

>Hmmm.  It seems to me he would still bring in the same gross income, but 
>would get no profit from that.  If you charge 2000 credits for passage, 
>pay 1000 credits to the government (taxes), and pay another 1000 credits for 
>repairs and supplies, that leaves nothing for profit.  
>
>At least, that's how it seems to me.

Let's try again.

For transporting a high passenger the ship owner is paid (by the passenger)
10,000cr.
For transporting a mid passenger the ship owner is paid (by the passenger)
8,000cr.
In both cases the 'overhead' listed in CT for either passenger is 2,000cr.
Net income for a high passenger will 8,000cr (less a little more for
stewards pay).
Net income for a mid passenger will be 6,000cr (no steward for mid passengers).

It is out of the 'overhead' of 2,000cr that taxes and supplies are paid.
Net profits 
remains the same.

- -Daniel



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 15:19:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Language Questions.

On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Joseph Chepe Lockett wrote:

> would we call, say, a simplified version of English, something like the Basic
> English that Voice of America used for broadcasts?  Heck, perhaps "Basic"
> would be a good name, later changed to "Galactic Basic"?  Though that would
> tend to abbreviate to "Galbase", which sounds even more fungal to me....

...and sounds more like a simple programming language to me.  (New from 
MicroSquish: Visual Galactic BASIC!)  :)   Or maybe GalBase is a new 
database program...

Anyway, the term Galanglic hasn't ever bothered me . . .


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 20:31:28 GMT
Subject: Brilliant Lances vs. Battle Rider

Due to concerns with the upcoming T4 ship combat rules, I would like to
know if anyone out there would recommend either of these two GDW products
for recreating small-scale battles (no more than a dozen vessels involved).
I would prefer a system that isn't unnecessarily complicated.  I would
imagine that these two systems would be easily swapped over to the new T4
rules since QSDS, SSDS, BL, and BR are all based on the rules from FF&S.

What are these two games like?  Are they tactical games (small unit scale)
or more like grand strategic simulators?

What scales do they use and do they account for the presence of PCs?  Do
character skills come into effect?

Are they fully compatible with each other and might they be compatible with
T4 (that last question might be a little tricky) without major revisions?

I am looking for a system that will recreate mostly Corsair activity, with
to possible addition of two or three modestly-sized military actions over
the course of the campaign.




James W. Lindsay      Vancouver, British Columbia

"WIZARD PARKING ONLY"... All Others Will Be Toad.

------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 12:53:00 -0800
Subject: Platinum Ores

>I could be wrong, but I don't believe that any of the platinum group
>metals have "ores" in the sense being chemical bound with some other
>element. I'm *real* sure about platinum, iridium and osmium.

Platinum is seldom found in a pure state, and platinum production produces
another metalic substance as a by product: Palladium (sp?). Palladium is a
rose colored silveresque metal very similar to platinum in characteristics.

>From Perry's:
> Name          Symb    At#     At Wt
> Palladium     Pd      46      106.4

Palladium separates out in the process for separating platinum from it's
matrix materials. While less desired than platinum, it is also much more
rare, and thus has similar market values.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 14:48:11 -0600
Subject: Re: Cymbeline Chips

At 12:16 pm 6/30/96 -0800, you wrote:
>>        Using the transponder chips, it is NOT necessary to have a physical
>>interface crawl from one transponder to the other. ALL these chips are
>>"bred" from some kind of "living" chip which preyed on other chips REMOTELY!
>>No physical connection needed. So, everybody who's arguing about different
>>logic systems, microcode architecture, etc. is forgetting one thing:
>
>Wrong... The chips were self mobile, and bred by imprinting their patterns
>on a piece of silicon they had come into contact with; they also had

        No, right ... Survival Margin, p71 says the original weapon was
developed based "... on a newly discovered 'wild strain' of Cymbeline chip.
These symbiotic parasites were, in some cases, able to change the circuitry
of theur prey at long distance ..." And again, p79, "...which could command
prey chips to cut new circuitry without having to come into physical contact
with them."

        That's the ancestry of Virus. Therefore my comment about "no
physical connection needed" remains mostly correct. The true Deyo
transponder chips couldn't prey on other chips remotely. HOWEVER, Virus
derived from a chip which could and did prey remotely on other chips (such
as the Deyo's ancestors).
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 14:50:55 -0600
Subject: Re: Brilliant Lances vs. Battle Rider

At 08:31 pm 6/30/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Due to concerns with the upcoming T4 ship combat rules, I would like to
>know if anyone out there would recommend either of these two GDW products
>for recreating small-scale battles (no more than a dozen vessels involved).
>I would prefer a system that isn't unnecessarily complicated.  I would
>imagine that these two systems would be easily swapped over to the new T4
>rules since QSDS, SSDS, BL, and BR are all based on the rules from FF&S.
>
>What are these two games like?  Are they tactical games (small unit scale)
>or more like grand strategic simulators?
>
>What scales do they use and do they account for the presence of PCs?  Do
>character skills come into effect?
>
>Are they fully compatible with each other and might they be compatible with
>T4 (that last question might be a little tricky) without major revisions?
>
>I am looking for a system that will recreate mostly Corsair activity, with
>to possible addition of two or three modestly-sized military actions over
>the course of the campaign.

        Personal opinion, here... BL is a pain in the neck to set up unless
you use pregenerated ship control panels (conveniently available from my web
site <G>), while BR is designed for LARGE ships ... as in 30,000T Battle
Riders. I think we need to create our own game which is a decent blend of
BLs role-playing detail (players really do care where their ship gets hit)
with BRs speed.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #191
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 30 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 192

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Fission Reactors
         2. Re: Language Questions.
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #173
         4. Re: Brilliant Lances vs. Battle Rider
         5. Imperial citizenship
         6. Virus rocks
         7. Re: But Why?
         8. Re: Virus rocks
         9. Re: But Why?
        10. Difference Engine
        11. TNE Solomani: The True Story
        12. Re: Language Questions.
        13. Cost and Price...
        14. Re: Virus rocks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Edward Baltz <eabaltz@pac2.berkeley.edu>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 13:51:16 -0700
Subject: Re: Fission Reactors

 Anything heavier than iron could be split this way. Howver, the closer
 to iron (Fe 56) the *less* energy you can get from a given mass of
 material. To get the total energy extractable, figure the number of
 nucleons in the mass, divide by 56. Then multiply the result by the
 mass of a Fe 56 atom. The difference between the starting and ending
 figure is the mass that can be converted into energy.

Not really... The semiempirical mass formula which roughly gives the binding
energy of nuclei as a function of neutron and proton number looks like

E = -14 A + 18.1 (N-Z)^2/A + 0.56 Z^2 / A^(1/3) + 13.1 A^(2/3)

N is # of neutrons, Z is # of protons, A=N+Z
Binding energy PER NUCLEON is peaked at Iron 56, but total binding energy keeps
going up with heavier nuclei.

 However, you made one slight goof. it's unlikely that the nuclei will
 *fission*. Fisssion is an uncomon decay mode. Instead, you are likely
 to get a lot of alpha and beta decay chains. Thus, getting the amiount
 of energy from the calculation in the previous paragraph is difficult,
 if not impossible.

You have a nuclear damper.  You can make the things as unstable as you want,
and give them any decay mode you want.  You want fission or alpha decay, turn
down the strong force.  You want beta decay, turn up the weak force.

> This is also a great way to make fission warheads.  Take a lump of lead and a
> nuclear damper.  Detonate by making Lead 206 really unstable, decaying by
> spontaneous fission.  Pretty simple.

 Actually, the best way is to take some transuranic elements and
 stabilize them with the damper field. A good choice would be
 Californium 254. This is a fissionable element with a critical mass of
 less than an *ounce*! Picture the results when the missile impacts,
 destroying the damper, and leaving several hundred *kilos* of it
 sitting there. :-)

What happens if you have a power failure?  My way is a lot safer, and if we are
manipuilating nuclear forces, we can make any critical mass we want.

> I don't know exactly what the canon says about the capabilities of nuclear
> dampers, but it seems that they can do enough different things so that even
> wierder things are possible.

 Neutralize the weak force to the point that free neutrons won't decay.
 Feed neutrons into the field. With a little help from gravatics, you
 should be able to get a fairly dense "neutron gas", possibly even a
 liquid. I don't think even TL 15 is up to creating neutronium. In any
 case, when you drop the field on *this* the results should be
 gratifying, especially if you *reverse* the field just as you implode
 the contents.

 I figure the result would be *all* the neutrons converting to an
 electron, proton, and anti-neutrino. The densely packed hydrogen
 *can't* fuse until the damper field drops. If things are set up right,
 that'll happen at maximum density, and the result ought to make a
 regular hydrogen bomb look tame.

The limiting factor in the hydrongen buring is the first interaction, 

proton + proton --> deuteron + positron + neutrino 

Turn up the weak force and dont worry too much about density.  The reaction
rate at the center of the sun is pretty low, and there the hydrogen density is
like water.


Ted Baltz
eabaltz@pac2.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 16:53:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Language Questions.

Speaking only for my campaigns, Galanglic is of course the dominant
Imperial language.  I see it as about 75% Anglic and the other 25% terms
and expressions borrowed from Vilani and Sylean.

Other languages are common.  I see the typical Impie citizen as knowing a
smattering of Old Vilani or old Solomani languages, depending on what part
of the Imperium one is in.  Kinda like how many US Citizens (sorry but I
am from the US) know a bit of latin, or french, or whatever.

Accents vary of course, as do dialects.  A man speaking Galanglic from the
Spindward marches to a man from the Solomani Rim speaking Galangic would
be a bit like having a Scottsman and an American from the deeeeep south
talk to each other.  It could get interesting, *suppossedly* they are both
speaking the same language...

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 15:53:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #173

On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Daniel wrote:

> It is out of the 'overhead' of 2,000cr that taxes and supplies are paid.
> Net profits 
> remains the same.

The light dawns.  

So I get to wear the Stupid Hat today.  :)   For some reason I was thinking 
you meant the cost of passage was Cr 2000.  Lord knows WHY I thought that, 
but . . .


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@rt66.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 15:41:11 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Brilliant Lances vs. Battle Rider

 
> What are these two games like?  Are they tactical games (small unit scale)
> or more like grand strategic simulators?

Both are tactical.  The only real difference is the damage allocation
system (where the lions share of time is spent in BL play).
 
> What scales do they use and do they account for the presence of PCs?  Do
> character skills come into effect?

PCs are more for BL, but it takes a long time to play.  Down to
individuals and their skills (and where they are in the ship).
 
> Are they fully compatible with each other and might they be compatible with
> T4 (that last question might be a little tricky) without major revisions?

With each other they are with some fixes (which I've already done).  To
T4, um, from my experience playing with the T4 system, no.

> I am looking for a system that will recreate mostly Corsair activity, with
> to possible addition of two or three modestly-sized military actions over
> the course of the campaign.
 
If you want a "there's a 2cm hole in stateroom three.  Fix it!" level of
detail, try BL.  BR only deals with critical hits.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 15:19:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Imperial citizenship

>From: Matthew Harelick <matth@interactive.net>
>Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:25:48 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Imperial citizens and taxes
>
>Hi: 
>
>What precisely defines an imperial citizen? 
>
>>From what I remember about the description of the rebellion, Dulinor 
>wanted the Imperium to rule the worlds and not the space in between 
>them. This tells me that just because a world claims allegiance towards
>the Imperium does not mean that all the citizens of that world are the
>citizens of the Imperium. 

I hope that the following is consistent with the position I've taken in the
past on this subject.  I don't think that any of it is canon.

Imperial citizenship is defined by Imperial law, which recognizes three
sources of Imperial citizenship:  birthplace, parentage, and naturalization.  

Specifically, Imperial law decrees that Imperial citizens are:  
(1) every living sentient being that came into existence (a) on or within
the star system of a member state of the Imperium or (b) aboard a starship
in jump space (i) between two member states of the Imperium or (ii) between
a member state and a non-Imperial destination, but on the ship's clock
closer in time to the member state; 
(2) every living sentient being born to at least one Imperial citizen; and
(3) every living sentient being who has completed the requirements for
naturalization and has received certification as an Imperial citizen by an
Imperial Judicial Court or Imperial noble of the rank of Duke or higher who
holds an appropriate commission.

Citizens of the Imperium have certain rights in the Imperium (not many),
but, outside the Imperium are entitled to the full protections afforded by
treaties between the Imperium and other interstellar governments.  (Remember
the Don Pacifico affair for the importance of such rights, or Woodrow
Wilson's shelling of Veracruz.)  

Imperial citizenship does not conflict with citizenship in an Imperial
member state; indeed, the norm is to have two citizenships, Imperial and
local.  For example, Eneri Gonzalez was born on Efate/Regina/Spinward
Marches.  He is an Imperial citizen by birth. The law of Efate provides that
someone born on Efate to an Imperial citizen is a citizen of Efate.  Eneri
is thus also a citizen of Efate, subject to Efate taxes, military
conscription, education, etc.  

Prienjistebr was also born on Efate, but his parents were Zhodani citizens.
Under Imperial law, he is an Imperial citizen.  Under Zhodani law, which
also looks to parentage and birthplace, he is a Zhodani citizenship.  Under
Imperial law, he may retain dual citizenship until age 18, when he must
choose.  If he chooses Zhodani citizenship, he will have to get appropriate
Zhodani travel documents (specifically a passport) and an Imperial resident
visa.  Zhodani law also permits dual citizenship, and requires that the
choice be made at approximately the same age.  (A treaty between the
Imperium and the Zhodani Consulate has clarified any confusion on the age at
which dual citizenship ends.)

As to Efate, however, Prienjistebr faces a different situation.  Efate law
provides that someone born on Efate to an Imperial citizen is a citizen of
Efate, so Prienjistebr is not a citizen of Efate.  

An immigration law that shouldn't be confused with citizenship (which is a
bundle of rights) is that of travel documents, such as passports, visas, and
work permits.  Eneri Gonzalez obtains a passport at age 18 from the
government of Efate, which is really valid only for travel within the
Imperium.  He must present it at customs when he arrives at Louzy, but he
won't be allowed to board the long jump liner for Farreach if that's the
only passport he has.  In order to leave the Imperium legitimately, he must
have an Imperial passport, for which he must apply separately from the Efate
passport.  Nevertheless, the two passports are commonly integrated into a
single document with both the Imperial and Efate seals and appropriate
signatures.

Intra-Imperial travel does not present too many barriers.  Most member
states don't require visas of citizens of other member states who intend to
visit for limited times, but there are exceptions (rich worlds typically
restrict immigration, as do worlds dependent on artificial life support
systems).  These exceptions include, for example, limiting the time of stay;
requiring the expenditure of a certain number of credits per diem while in
the member state; requiring quarantine; and prohibiting entry entirely.

I hope that these are useful comments.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 15:19:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Virus rocks

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

>On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:

>> > My biggest complaint about Virus is that no provision was ever made for it

>> But would we need someone with foward observer skill to do that?  

>No, no, no.  We'd need a special sub-skill:  Virus-Targeting 
>Rock-Launching Forward Observation.

That's a completely wrong-headed approach.  FO should be made a cascade
skill, which would cascade into: rock targetting, deadfall ortillery
targeting, energy weapon ortillery targeting (which excludes meson weapons),
meson targetting, tac missile targeting, and artillery targeting.  Virus
should adjust the difficulty level of the task (up or down, depending).

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 16:59:34 -0600
Subject: Re: But Why?

On 06/30/96 at 09:47 AM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:

>>We didn't want authorities knowing where we'd been, what we'd been
>>doing, even exactly who we were most of the time.  I remember the ver
>>first session where I brought up the required transponder for IFF, an
>>the players *immediately* started looking for ways to isolate and
>>spoof it.

>        That's EXACTLY why the Imperium required the transponder to
>have tamperproof access to the rest of the ship ... so dirty, evil,
>rotten Zhodani sympathizers like you couldn't get away with your
>heinous crimes.

Damn straight!  <g> 

Ya'll aren't understanding my plaintive "WHY?"  It's not why did 3I
require it, it's why did you (the GM) require it AND make it so hard
to spoof.  I wanted a free and loose game, not one where the "powers"
had their thumb firmly shoved into the PC's windpipe.

>        Note that tamperproof doesn't mean you couldn't tamper with
>it, just that the transponder would detect that its connections had
>been altered. You've got a miniscule chance of successfully doing it,
>but if you fail the Imperium's probably gonna hammer you first chance
>they get, because the Deyo chip will squeal like a pig on you.

So, I suppose you just went along with that, huh?  ;-> 

I encouraged my paranoid and sneaky players.  I made it a Difficult
task to "tamper with the transponder", but the difficult is very
doable with good skills.  Avoiding discovery was Routine...unless the
authorities actually took the ship apart.

The PC's were perfectly legit merchant-traders too, but they had
several different *seemingly* official transponder codes.  They picked
them up from the same sort of NPC's that provided them with the most
*interesting* jobs.  :->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 17:03:18 -0600
Subject: Re: Virus rocks

On 06/30/96 at 10:23 AM,  Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com> said:

>> > But would we need someone with foward observer skill to do that?  

>> No, no, no.  We'd need a special sub-skill:  Virus-Targeting 
>> Rock-Launching Forward Observation.

>Would that be a cascade skill? 8->

No, but for subscribers to TML it *would* be a default skill. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 17:22:38 -0600
Subject: Re: But Why?

At 04:59 pm 6/30/96 -0600, you wrote:
>On 06/30/96 at 09:47 AM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:
>
>>>We didn't want authorities knowing where we'd been, what we'd been
>>>doing, even exactly who we were most of the time.  I remember the ver
>>>first session where I brought up the required transponder for IFF, an
>>>the players *immediately* started looking for ways to isolate and
>>>spoof it.
>
>>        That's EXACTLY why the Imperium required the transponder to
>>have tamperproof access to the rest of the ship ... so dirty, evil,
>>rotten Zhodani sympathizers like you couldn't get away with your
>>heinous crimes.
>
>Damn straight!  <g> 
>
>Ya'll aren't understanding my plaintive "WHY?"  It's not why did 3I
>require it, it's why did you (the GM) require it AND make it so hard
>to spoof.  I wanted a free and loose game, not one where the "powers"
>had their thumb firmly shoved into the PC's windpipe.

        Then change it. Either make it easier for them to spoof it, or
discard it, or use getting caught as an adventure hook...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:36:26 -0500
Subject: Difference Engine

Try reading _The Difference Engine_ by Bruce Sterling and William Gibson. 
It is a historical fantasy of what England might have been like if the
Babbage Engine did work.  The part I liked best was how they measured
computing power (Gear Feet), and the big ones were in Gear Miles.
DCB
- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: mike foy <musashi@norfolk.infi.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 20:21:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: TNE Solomani: The True Story

Musashi posts a looong post:
Concerning the Solomani in in the TNE, here are some deveopment notes from
my Mega-Traveller and TNE campaigns:  

 My Mega-Traveller campaign had an alternate ending to the Civil War, one in
which the Solomani get their act together after a revolution within the
government of the Solomani Movement. Joshua Davin (he's not dead) and the
Reformists have precipitated a coup against those nasty SolSec people,
destroying much of the command and control of the Solomani Movement. With
help of a variety of attack viruses (small "v") developed by the living
computer chips rescued from Cymbeline,  the coup was successful in its
commando attacks on the security and military leadership on both Terra and
Home. However, the assets of the Solomani military and security forces
quickly recovered and hunkered down in a protracted war with the liberators,
which hold Home and Terra.Yet, the common man (and  sophont) joined with the
New Patriots (Dahvin et al) in a widespread revolt against the fascist
Solomani Tyranny. The new movement and government has a name and a mission
that is extrordinary for the 5th Millenium AD, a revolutionary one, that
would appeal to the real Strephon. The Republic of the Milky Way seeks to
destroy and replace the ideal that destroyed both the Imperium and the
Solomani. The Custom of Superiority, whether it is based on social standing
or racial dogma, sacrificed the beings of the Imperium to a massive war that
could not be won, and destroyed the freedom of all sophonts in the Solomani
Sphere. The denizens of the Sphere, not unlike those in the Imperium, were
sacrificed not in the name of security or prosperity, but petty conquest and
the personal agrandizment of their so-called leaders.   The New Patriots are
still fighting the strong remanants of the Solomani Tyranny, but are
begining to set their sights on liberating the citizens of the former
Imperium before another very Long Night sets down on charted space. I am, of
course, still developing (and refereeing) this campaign as it continues into
the tulmutuous 1130's.  This background,  however,  led directly to my New
Era campaign.
  When VIRUS  hit the rimward states, one of the few governments
unintentionally ready to deal with the threat, was that of the New Patriots
of the Republic of the Milky Way, deep in the Solomani Sphere. VIRUS
devastated the elements and worlds of the Solomani Tyranny, including their
puppet states and coerced allies. The New Patriots had a defense waiting for
VIRUS. The living chips of Cymbeline, smuggled off their home planet by the
pansophists, became willing members and citizens of the Republic. By the
time Virus made it to the core of the Sphere, most ships, installations, and
other computer equiped systems were inhabited by Cymbeline Citizens (CCs as
they refer to the themselves). The CCs were quite different from the systems
that made up VIRUS in that they needed fairly sophisticated computer system
support to evolve and participate with non-silicon sophonts. They could not
invade computers like VIRUS. That was an ability developed later. CC's had
to be voluntarilly installed as resident AI CPU's controlling entirely new
systems or be retrofitted into an existing one, an exacting, complex
procedure, that would become obsolete when the CC's became the dominant form
of symbiotic CPU's in all advanced systems. The CC's are naturally evolved
silicon lifeforms, never the less. Their complexity and intelligence
exceeded all but the most highly evolved VIRUS strains,  just as any human
would be infinitely more complex than any pre-Virus Tech Level 16 or 17
psuedobiological android. VIRUS would never be able to catch up with the
CC's billion of  years evolution and the resulting explosion of intelligence
that took place when they became exposed the universe outside their now
irradiated homeworld, Cymbeline. The CC's became the last line of defense
against VIRUS. Younger CC's succumbed to only the most highly advanced VIRUS
strains and that was only one of the weak links in the Republic's defense.
Now VIRUS had the remaining military craft of the Solomani Tyranny and those
of the surrounding former Imperium. Some of the bastions of the Tyranny that
survived the assault of VIRUS, made quisling deals with the enemy, adding
their might and treachery to the onslaught. Only through sheer, brute
physical force was Virus able to push the Republic's sphere of 120+ systems
down to a small core of 35 systems, 22 possessing  habitable worlds. All
this destruction and genocide since IT was unleashed upon the Rim. In the
1170's , the CC's began developing the ability to fight Virus with ITs own
methods. Using a method called Gemini, the CCs evolved the ability to send
out powerful almost identical forms (Twins or Avatars) of themselves, that
were technically viruses like VIRUS, but self-aware in a way VIRUS can never
be.  Although it has been debated by theologians and philosophers to a
standstill in the Republic, there is a fact, so very important,  that not
even Yaskodray (Grandfather) would never know:  VIRUS,  no matter how
self-aware or conscious it may appear to be, does not have a SOUL! That is
the advantage Cybeline Citizens and their Gemini Twins posess and that is
the means the Republic will use to take back the Milky Way from the
literally souless VIRUS. The war against VIRUS became:  The CRUSADE. The
living community of CC's, humaniti, and other sophonts assumed an almost
Holy Obligation to destroy VIRUS. They know VIRUS, in their hearts,
theoretically, has no soul, never will, and with the few exceptions (maybe)
within the "God is Good" strain, deserves absolute extermination. Only then
will all beings be truly free. That is how the New Era has dawned in the old
Solomani Rim. Thus endeth just a part of my ramblings.



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 18:47:54 -0600
Subject: Re: Language Questions.

On 06/30/96 at 04:53 PM,  Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com> said:

>Accents vary of course, as do dialects.  A man speaking Galanglic
>from the Spindward marches to a man from the Solomani Rim speaking
>Galangic would be a bit like having a Scottsman and an American from
>the deeeeep south talk to each other.  It could get interesting,
>*suppossedly* they are both speaking the same language...

Speaking as someone from the deeeep south, you'all <g>, who has taught
native Scots, Irish, Welsh, and speakers of various English dialects I
*do* understand your point.  However, as long as we speak slowly, and
avoid colloquial and slang expressions we understand each other quite
well.  OTOH, it is *very* hard to understand folks who learn english
as a second language after reaching adulthood...partly because of
differences in pace and rhythms, partly because some sounds in english
aren't natural for them.

My guess is that in 0, Galanglic (a very respectable and old SF term,
BTW) will be similar to either Latin in medieval europe, or
trade-pidgin.  In the first case, most cultures would have people who
could talk to visitors..but these might be specialized professionals. 
In the second case, there would be huge
differences in local usage, but a small essential sub-set of the
language would be commonly understandable.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 18:25:31 -0600
Subject: Cost and Price...

...Price and Cost!

On 06/30/96 at 03:53 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
said:

>> It is out of the 'overhead' of 2,000cr that taxes and supplies are p
>> Net profits remains the same.

>The light dawns.  

>So I get to wear the Stupid Hat today.  :)   For some reason I was
>thinking  you meant the cost of passage was Cr 2000.  Lord knows WHY
>I thought that,  but . . .

I didn't get his idea either, so pass me the Stupid Hat when you're
through with it. ;->

The *fixed cost* for LIFE SUPPORT is 2,000cr per trip for every
stateroom.  Other costs the owner has to cover include fuel, salaries,
maintenance, berthing costs and mortgage.  
(p. 5-7 CT BK2)

The *price* the ship's owner charges to transport a passenger can be
some other number..like the 10,000cr price quoted in CT.  (p. 2 CT
BK2)

I can't say I'm enamored with the price fixing, "Passengers will pay
the standard fare for the class of transportation they choose:  CR
10,000 for high....", (p 8 CT BK 2), "Cargo is normally shipped at a
rate of CR 1000 per ton.", (p 7 CT BK 2). I'm much more given to
letting the market dictate prices.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 20:50:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Virus rocks

On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> >From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> 
> >On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:
> 
> >> > My biggest complaint about Virus is that no provision was ever made for it
> 
> >> But would we need someone with foward observer skill to do that?  
> 
> >No, no, no.  We'd need a special sub-skill:  Virus-Targeting 
> >Rock-Launching Forward Observation.
> 
> That's a completely wrong-headed approach.  FO should be made a cascade
> skill, which would cascade into: rock targetting, deadfall ortillery
> targeting, energy weapon ortillery targeting (which excludes meson weapons),
> meson targetting, tac missile targeting, and artillery targeting.  Virus
> should adjust the difficulty level of the task (up or down, depending).

Your head is full of rocks (moving at .1c).  Cascade skills are 
so...'80s.  We need a separate skill for everything, then we build a 
skill web showing their interconnections.

- -Joe (using his Typing-5 skill, which is related to his Archaic Computer 
Programming-4 skill, his biological visual senser operations-3 and 
biological tactile sensor operations-3 skills.)
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #192
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 1 July 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 193

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Words
         2. Re: Cymbeline Chips
         3. Re: Cost and Price...
         4. Re: Brilliant Lances vs. Battle Rider
         5. Re: Virus rocks
         6. Small Ship designs in SSDS
         7. Re: Language Questions.
         8. Re: Small Ship designs in SSDS
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #188
        10. Re: Difference Engine
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #188
        12. Re: TL 4 computers
        13. Re: Fatique and Upkeep in TNE
        14. Re: TL 4 computers
        15. Re: Brilliant Lances vs. Battle Rider

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 23:00:51 -0300
Subject: Words

re: guaxni

Glenn M. Goffin wrote

>So in places like that, PCs would have to rely on blat or guanxi to get
>things done. 

I'm familiar with blat.  What's the language/culture and exact nuance for
guaxi? Thanks.

re: Stere

Stere is a perfectly valid metric unit.  So, of course, is kilostere; but
the prefered term for civil use is abattoir.

re: virus

I have become convinced that a vampire cruiser has made its way back to the
twentieth century through a time warp, infiltrated the internet, and is
engaged in a desperate effort to prove it will never come to exist.  If it
fails, it will drop a rock on us.  We will probably be able to rebuild
civilization as a feudal technocracy.

Black globe on, number one...



Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 21:06:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Cymbeline Chips

>From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
>Subject: Cymbeline Chips
>
>of all the models for virus operation, leonards works.... it allows the
>virus to "do what it does", in a logical, timely manner, but also adheres
>to cannon on they "deyo"/SDG chips (SDG being the lettering that they have
>carried from their chance encounter with a solomani chip labeled SDG
>something or other...).

Nice try, but not remotely true.  SDG comes from (originally) the tests run
on the Cymbeline chips and their offspring - Strain D Group (in this case
313F).  Later, one of the researchers hooked up one of the chips of this
Group to a big data library, and it told the researcher (through a voder)
that it thought that SDG stood for Soli Deo Gloria ("To God alone goes the
glory").  Apparently the chip had found a Bach entry in the data library!

Deyo came from someone writing Deo down improperly and it stuck.

Incidentally, the researcher asked another chip what Deo meant to it, and it
replied, "Daylight come and me wan' go home."

And now you know the rest of the story.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 21:08:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Cost and Price...

On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I didn't get his idea either, so pass me the Stupid Hat when you're
> through with it. ;->

Oh, I don't know that I'll ever be completely through with it, but I'll 
let ya borrow it [handing hat to you]. :)

> I can't say I'm enamored with the price fixing, "Passengers will pay
> the standard fare for the class of transportation they choose:  CR
> 10,000 for high....", (p 8 CT BK 2), "Cargo is normally shipped at a
> rate of CR 1000 per ton.", (p 7 CT BK 2). I'm much more given to
> letting the market dictate prices.

I never bothered with changing the prices until I became enamored of 
economics in college.  My players had the dubious honor of benefitting 
from my college education, you see. :)  Every time I learned something 
new that could be applied to the game, it was.  It helped me a LOT on 
tests ('cuz I'd been using the knowledge), but drove the players bonkers 
at times.  :)  

It was MUCH more fun letting macro- and microeconomic factors determine 
pricing and availability.  For me, anyway. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 02:19:13 GMT
Subject: Re: Brilliant Lances vs. Battle Rider

On Sun, 30 Jun 1996 14:50:55 -0600, David J. Golden wrote:

>         Personal opinion, here... BL is a pain in the neck to set up unless
> you use pregenerated ship control panels (conveniently available from my web
> site <G>), while BR is designed for LARGE ships ... as in 30,000T Battle
> Riders. I think we need to create our own game which is a decent blend of
> BLs role-playing detail (players really do care where their ship gets hit)
> with BRs speed.

"Doh!"

So I might need both!  I like the idea of a single, combined system that
makes use of the strengths of the two systems much better 8-)

BL sounds a bit too complicated for my group's style of gaming, although I
can see why the complexity might be necessary when it is the PC's ship we
are talking about.  As for BR, I never ran the type of campaign where
players and/or characters would have control of such massive vessels.
Since large-scale fleet engagements usually have lasting effects on a
campaign's background, I prefer to have a little more control over these
events that allow me and my players to firght that battle (but that's just
me).

Just out of curiosity, what are the Jump, MDrive, armour, weapons
capabilities, etc. of these large ships in BR/TNE?  High Guard allowed me
to design everything from 100t scouts up to a 1,000,000 rift tanker but I
never had enough information to decide things like "what is the average
armour value on a destroyer or cruiser or battle rider (in relation to each
other)" or "how many redundant systems will an escort have vs. a
dreadnaught."

My own home-brewed rules (based on the aforementioned HG) would probably
work, although I really would have to wait for the T4 Basic Rules and
Starships books to be released before hand.


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:16:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Virus rocks

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Subject: Re: Virus rocks
>
>On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>
>> >From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>> 
>> >On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:
>> 
>> >> > My biggest complaint about Virus is that no provision was ever made
for it
>> 
>> >> But would we need someone with foward observer skill to do that?  
>> 
>> >No, no, no.  We'd need a special sub-skill:  Virus-Targeting 
>> >Rock-Launching Forward Observation.
>> 
>> That's a completely wrong-headed approach.  FO should be made a cascade
>> skill, which would cascade into: rock targetting, deadfall ortillery
>> targeting, energy weapon ortillery targeting (which excludes meson weapons),
>> meson targetting, tac missile targeting, and artillery targeting.  Virus
>> should adjust the difficulty level of the task (up or down, depending).
>
>Your head is full of rocks (moving at .1c).  Cascade skills are 
>so...'80s.  We need a separate skill for everything, then we build a 
>skill web showing their interconnections.

I think everyone need a little extra nap time tomorrow!  We must be the
craziest, stupid people in the world (note the we) to sit up into all hours
of the night waiting for someone to say something on the List that we can
JUMP ALL OVER THEM FOR!!!!

Has anybody seen my stere, er... um, cow, I mean, bull?

BTW, would that skill be a background skill or not?  And would it be rolled
or chosen?


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 19:28:56 -0500
Subject: Small Ship designs in SSDS

I was working on a small craft in SSDS, but I was wondering if SSDS will
include the Electronics tables to build custom suites for small craft.  In
a fighter, I want Fib computers, but I don't necessarily need a Military
Suite.  Just wondering.  Anyway, I designed a 20 ton Sylean Fighter, but
it needs 165Mw of power, 106 from the Electronics suite alone!  The end
result is about 100MW of power plant taking up 50m^3, and the design is
overspace by 38m^3.  It would also bring the cost under 74MCr.

I have a few other questions:
1. What is the benefit of ROF 100 over ROF 10 in combat terms?
2. What have people been using as armour values on MilSpec ships
3. How many weapons are going to be allowed on a ship, esp small craft
(e.g) can a fighter mount external missiles and a laser socket.


Sylean TL-12 Fighter Craft (Interdictor)
Tons 20 Wedge (AF)		Vol 280m^3		MCr 94.146 (90%)
Crew 1 (5 Maint)			Pass 0/0			Low 0	
Cargo 0m^3			Controls TL12		TL 12
07 Size Rating			00 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control			06 G Rating Thrusters
Laser Battery 1-0-0-0		17 Power Rating
				02 Fuel Rating
				10 A   4 P  10 J (EMM) Sensor Rating
				02 Armor	04 Structure

A 20 Ton Fusion Fighter craft, the Sylean Interdictor is the smallest
front line fighter around.  With a 6G acceleration, and mounting a 96Mj
ROF 100 laser, it can hurt small ships, and in swarms can hurt even larger
ones.  It requires 5 maintenance workers to keep the fighter operational,
and has a crew of 1 (pilot), who also serves as gunner.

Barring the problems of fitting a custom sensor suite, then the design is
fairly viable.  If I can get more space internally, I would like to see
either missiles, or up the armor to 80 for a USD of 3.

Questions, comments?  Are we going to be able to fit custom suites?  If
not, then I will most likely put in a civilian suite.

One idea I have is to build the fighter much like a modern fighter.  Use
passive sensors, and then launch a larger Electronic Warfare Fighter (EWF)
(like an AWACS or Hawkeye) that will find the enemy, then direct fire for
the rest of the squadron.  This could lead to linked fire against larger
targets (i.e.) Capital Ships.  The other idea would be to use the EWF to
paint the target for missiles (depending on how missiles work).
DCB
- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 03:27:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Language Questions.

On Jun 30, 1996 16:53:49, 'Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>' wrote: 
 
>Accents vary of course, as do dialects.  A man speaking Galanglic from the

>Spindward marches to a man from the Solomani Rim speaking Galangic would 
>be a bit like having a Scottsman and an American from the deeeeep south 
>talk to each other.  It could get interesting, *suppossedly* they are both

>speaking the same language... 
 
In fact I've been a "translator" in just such a situation.  
One of my cousins' husband (from Tennessee) was in New York  
on a business trip, and stopped by where I work. It turns 
out he and one of my co-workers (from Jamaica) have a  
common interest in, shall we say, the finer points of 
the distilling of certain beverages (and I mean connesieur-level 
interest: they'll argue fine points about rum or whiskey 
the way this list argues about asteroid-bombs), which they took 
as sufficient excuse to 'celebrate' after work. 
 
Thanks to the differences in pronounciation and  
speed of speech (my Jamaican friend speaks *very* fast, 
especially when he's excited -- or had a few), they couldn't 
understand each other unless they were speaking *very* 
slowly and clearly.  Since I was used to the way both 
of them spoke, I wound up "interpreting" when one wasn't 
too clear on what the other just said. 
 
It was rather surreal: they couldn't understand each other 
over half the time, but I understood both of them clearly 
(discounting for drinks consumed) and they understood  
me with no problems. 
 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 23:19:44 -0600
Subject: Re: Small Ship designs in SSDS

At 07:28 pm 6/22/96 -0500, "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com> wrote:
>I was working on a small craft in SSDS, but I was wondering if SSDS will
>include the Electronics tables to build custom suites for small craft.  In

        That was my original hope and plan. Unfortunately I didn't get them
in, and Don indicated SSDS was pushing its space limits anyway. However, if
you either have FF&S, want to ask someone who does, or wait for a possible
JTAS article ...

>3. How many weapons are going to be allowed on a ship, esp small craft
>(e.g) can a fighter mount external missiles and a laser socket.

        Your choice ... either track surface area and ensure it fits within
the available surface, or go with the "one turret per 100Td" rule of thumb.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:43:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #188

Andrew Boulton wrote:

> > A lot of ships in the wild's didn't.  That's why they survived the
> > collapse.
> 
>Except the ones that were mistaken for pirates and destroyed or 
>impounded.

This is true.  But there's one thing we have to remember.  They call it 
"SPACE" because there's lots of it.  8)
 


>>> This would be wee Mister Babbage's Difference Engine.
>>> Imagine if this thing worked...
>>
>>Not an if, it *would* have worked.  Babbage just needed more money than 
>>he could raise.
> 
> It *does* work - the Science Museum had it built a couple of years ago.

Actually I knew that.  Can't remember where I read it.  I used it as a 
Dark Conspiracy idea once.  Charaters went through dimension gate, 
darklings were building a difference engine to take over the world.


It was a really great wild west adventure.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:39:10 -0700
Subject: Re: Difference Engine

David C.. Broussard wrote:
> 
>Try reading _The Difference Engine_ by Bruce Sterling and William 
>Gibson. It is a historical fantasy of what England might have been like 
>if the Babbage Engine did work.  The part I liked best was how they 
>measured computing power (Gear Feet), and the big ones were in Gear 
>Miles.

You can't imagine the number of times I've tried to read "The Difference 
Engine"  I love William Gibson, I can't get past the first section where 
they dump the initail characters.  I've read 100 pages of this book and 
you mean to tell me I'll never see these character's again?!?

I liked what's her face, I was enthralled with the story.  Then they 
changed characters.  I couldn't forgive them for that and I never 
finished the book.

Derek Stanley
A huge fan of William Gibson.



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:43:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #188

Andrew Boulton wrote:

> > A lot of ships in the wild's didn't.  That's why they survived the
> > collapse.
> 
>Except the ones that were mistaken for pirates and destroyed or 
>impounded.

This is true.  But there's one thing we have to remember.  They call it 
"SPACE" because there's lots of it.  8)
 


>>> This would be wee Mister Babbage's Difference Engine.
>>> Imagine if this thing worked...
>>
>>Not an if, it *would* have worked.  Babbage just needed more money than 
>>he could raise.
> 
> It *does* work - the Science Museum had it built a couple of years ago.

Actually I knew that.  Can't remember where I read it.  I used it as a 
Dark Conspiracy idea once.  Charaters went through dimension gate, 
darklings were building a difference engine to take over the world.


It was a really great wild west adventure.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:53:37 -0700
Subject: Re: TL 4 computers

Craig Berry wrote:

>Actually, although Gibson and Stirling's SF novel based on this premise
>was called "The Difference Engine," Babbage and Lovelace's fully
>programmable design was called the "Analytical Engine."  The DE was a
>specialized unit for calculating tables of numeric values using 
>Nth-order differences -- hence the name.  I think the authors chose this 
>title for the pun -- "See what a difference this would have made."
> 
>The AE was a fully general computer in the modern sense.  Interestingly,
>it used separate program and data stores (so Virus couldn't eat it... 
>;)).   Babbage did the hardware side, pushing the envelope of early 

Can you imagine if every Imperial starship had one of these things on 
board?  8)

"Mr. Smee, four degrees to port after that pirate.  And get the men to 
throw some more coal in the scuttle, the computers slowing down."

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:49:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Fatique and Upkeep in TNE

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> I'm continuing through TNE, and I've come to the Worlds and Travel
> section.  I /love/ the Fatigue and Upkeep rules.  They really did a
> thorough job on this stuff.
> I've always thought that Fatigue was one of the best rules in the game.  
It gave you a sort of limit on what the characters could and could not 
do.

"I'm going to pack this fifty pound transmiter plus my golf club bag full 
of weapons over these mountians and then launch an assault on the TED's 
base at first light."

"Oh you are are you Rambo?"

And upkeep, that was always a perfect excuse for an adventure.

"I'm sorry captian, we've patched it as many times as we can.  We're 
going to have to find replacement parts and soon."

"Damn it all Cheif Engineer Wiggums, you know I just can't start my 
morning off right without that first cup of expresso!"

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 03:29:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: TL 4 computers

On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> "Mr. Smee, four degrees to port after that pirate.  And get the men to
> throw some more coal in the scuttle, the computers slowing down."
 You forgot the "arrrrrrrr, me matey theere be fine winds today!"
;)


bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 04:18:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Brilliant Lances vs. Battle Rider

Thus spake jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay):

[James states his need for a comparison between BL and BR]

> What are these two games like?  Are they tactical games (small unit scale)
> or more like grand strategic simulators?

Brilliant Lances is the more tactically-focussed game, while Battle Rider 
is probably your 'grand strategic simulator.'
 
> What scales do they use and do they account for the presence of PCs?  Do
> character skills come into effect?

Both systems (unless memory fails -- not totally unlikely) use the same 
time and distance scales (30,000 km hexes, 30 minute turns).  I think 
that BR makes some passing, slight allowance for PC skills (mostly it 
works in terms of total crew quality), but Brilliant Lances makes a much 
greater allowance (PC skills can figure into almost any task roll 
required for BL).
 
> Are they fully compatible with each other and might they be compatible with
> T4 (that last question might be a little tricky) without major revisions?

All ships in Battle Rider are actually ships designed using the Brilliant 
Lances/FF&S system, with conversions and simplifications made to 
facilitate faster play with large numbers of large ships.  The balance 
between both systems is almost equal -- in other words:  Whether you use 
one system or the other, the outcome will likely be the same.
 
> I am looking for a system that will recreate mostly Corsair activity, with
> to possible addition of two or three modestly-sized military actions over
> the course of the campaign.

Brilliant Lances is probably the best choice for this, especially if you 
don't want your PCs (and their skills) to get lost in the shuffle.  The 
caveat is that you're going to have to do a lot of advance preparation 
(those darn data sheets) in order to make the battles themselves run 
smoothly.  Check out David Golden's comments on this (his webpage has a 
whole bunch of pre-made BL data sheets).

On the other hand, if you're going to have large numbers of capital ships 
involved, then Battle Rider is the way to go.  I don't suspect that this 
will be the case, unless you've got a 30,000 ton battle rider or two 
beating up on scads corsair craft, which very rarely reach such a size.

As for compatability with T4?  I'm probably the wrong guy to ask, since 
I'm not an IG staffer, nor have I been asked to help one.  However, since 
all T4 design systems will ultimately lead back to FF&S (or whatever its 
next evolution turns out to be) as their basis (you know:  FF&S --> SSDS 
- --> QSDS), you can expect that BL and BR should work with them.  Of 
course, IG is coming out with their own, simplified space combat system 
(as hinted at by QSDS's 'factors'), and that probably won't be directly 
compatable with either of the previous systems (although, once again, 
they'll have a somewhat common basis).  Those offended by the lack of 
detail will probably stick with Brilliant Lances, and it's likely that IG 
may release a separate, detail-intensive starship combat system to 
satisfy these folks.  All of this is really wild-ass guessing on my part, 
with only a passing resemblance to reality, mind you...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest            Monday, 1 July 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 194

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Virus rocks
         2. Re: *NOT* the Virus
         3. Re: Virus
         4. Re: Psionic Suppression
         5. Re: 20 questions about Virus
         6. Re: Virus Flame War
         7. Re: Nukes in Space.....
         8. Re: Virus by Email
         9. Re: Rational Discussion
        10. Re: Fission Reactors
        11. Re: 20 thoughts on virus

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 07:03:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Virus rocks

On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> >> >> > My biggest complaint about Virus is that no provision was ever made
> for it
> >> 
> >> >> But would we need someone with foward observer skill to do that?  
> >> 
> >> >No, no, no.  We'd need a special sub-skill:  Virus-Targeting 
> >> >Rock-Launching Forward Observation.
> >> 
> >> That's a completely wrong-headed approach.  FO should be made a cascade
> >> skill, which would cascade into: rock targetting, deadfall ortillery
> >> targeting, energy weapon ortillery targeting (which excludes meson weapons),
> >> meson targetting, tac missile targeting, and artillery targeting.  Virus
> >> should adjust the difficulty level of the task (up or down, depending).
> >
> >Your head is full of rocks (moving at .1c).  Cascade skills are 
> >so...'80s.  We need a separate skill for everything, then we build a 
> >skill web showing their interconnections.
> 
> I think everyone need a little extra nap time tomorrow!  We must be the
> craziest, stupid people in the world (note the we) to sit up into all hours
> of the night waiting for someone to say something on the List that we can
> JUMP ALL OVER THEM FOR!!!!

The thing that worries me about this thread is that if we keep joking 
around together, people are going to get the impression we /like/ 
eachother, and that there will be no more flame wars.  What would the 
lurkers do then? :)

> BTW, would that skill be a background skill or not?  And would it be rolled
> or chosen?

Yes.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 00:19:42 PST
Subject: Re: *NOT* the Virus

Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> writes:

> At the risk of starting another war, let me clarify a few things that I
> think are misunderstood, and let me try to understand some things.
> 
> >> The Economists and Financeurs among us (myself included) have
> >> trouble reconciling the Imperial government structure and such with the
> >> existing trade practices in the Imperium.
> >
> >The trade rules are changeable.
> 
> Trade RULES are not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about the idea of a
> person in Traveller 1. being able to afford a grav car (much less a
> starship),

Are the prices *that* screwed up? I don't have the books handy?

> 2. the idea that people with a higher technology level (and thus
> an assumedly higher education factor) would accept living under a nobility
> structure without any control for themselves (look at the modern democratic
> reforms),

You might be surprised. And you do have to keep in mind that regardless
of all the BS floating around, the US was *deliberately* not set up as
a democracy. Democracies have a *lousy* track record, from the Greeks
right on up to the present. (Remember, the laws against the Jews in
the Third Reich were passed *democratically*).

It's not clear to what extent the Nobles affect everyday life. There
are ways such a system could work as well as our current one. And given
the apathy over elections in most places, I can see folks deciding it
really doesn't make that much difference as long as they can influence
their *local* government.

How many folks right now care *how* their UN representative is
appointed/elected/whatever? The Imperium doesn't affect everyday life
*on planet* much more than the UN affects everday life in most
countries. 

That's the beauty of the "planetary autonomy" bit. The planet can be a
democracy, republic, dictatorship, whatever, and the Imperial
Government doesn't care. 

(BTW, consider folks like the Kennedys and Rockefellers. They are *not*
that far from being a "hereditary nobility"!)

> and 3. The idea that a bank will lend someone the money to buy a
> starship and expect to get that money back!  (This is my biggest complaint!)

Banks loan money to folks with some fair-sized ships these days, don't
they? The only problem I see is that the profitability of the ships
should be a bit higher. After all, the idea is that the ship *is* worth
the loan. 

> Anyway, I'm not talking about rules, I'm talking about background issues.
> 
> >>  The folks who study FTL potential
> >> (sorry, I don't know what you guys are called) find the Jump drive theory
> >> crazy.
> >
> >Physicists again. And while jump doesn't sound likely, FTL is *not* a
> >settled matter in the phsyics community.
> >
> 
> That's my point right there!  Jump Drive (FTL into another dimension taking
> 1wk on average no matter how far you go) is probably considered a silly
> notion by the physicists who study FTL, but in Trav we must keep it because
> 1. it is a a plot device, and 2. since it was included in previous editions,
> we can't change it without changing background!

Ah! But in most of the rules, all we know is that you do something
called a "jump" and a week later you come out at somewhere else. That
doesn't do much violence to physics. As a matter of fact, it looks like
one of the major bugaboos of the anti-FTL crowd, time travel, is *damn*
difficult to pull off in this situation. (I'll eventually get the
requirements worked out).

> >Sorry. Wrong answer. The reactionless drive can be *ignored* (make it a
> >reaction drive of some sort) with next to no effect on the game. The
> 
> This is what TNE did, and got blasted because HEPLAR (I never remember which
> ones to cap) wasn't cannon, that is, it didn't agree with previous versions!

I know that I and a lot of other people just *assumed* that the CT
drives were fusion rockets.

> > FTL is *not* that big a deal.
> 
> It would be a big deal if you left it out, or even if you changed it.  The
> effects on the background would be devestating!  (Reread the Jump torp
> debate if you don't believe me!)

Yeah but the idea of FTL isn't that big a deal. The details matter, but
so do the details of every game element.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 00:38:44 PST
Subject: Re: Virus

Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> writes:

> >>   PRO-VIRUS SIDE -  Two things must be taken into consideration as the bas
> >> for considering Virus.  1. Virus is alive and makes its own choices, and
> >> therefore doesn't need to be activated to begin to take control of a
> >> computer. It can activate itself.
> >
> >If it isn't activated, then it isn't alive! It has to be alive to do
> >anything. It's in "suspended animation" until it is activated by the
> >receiving computer. Its "life processes" consist of instructions being
> >executed by the computer. So it isn't alive unless it is being
> >executed. If it isn't being executed, then it's like a person in a low
> >berth, all biological processes are stopped.
> >
> >I think you folks need to re-think this point.
> 
> Agreed, I changed the word activated to the word executed in the sentence
> above, but that still doesn't convey the message.  I think what I was trying
> (and failing miserably) to get across was that Virus didn't need human
> interaction to be executed.

And what we are trying to say is that the computer *cannot* execute
code that the *existing* code on the computer hasn't told it to run.
It's not a matter of human intervention. It's that the "code" that
comprises the virus may come over a comm link, just linke a file comes
over your Internet link. But unless the *existing* software on that
computer has instructions to start running the contents of the file, it
won't. Just like your system won't execute email. 

The *computer* has to make the "decision" to run the virus. And that
decision is based on whatever is running on the computer *before* the
virus gets there. If it has programming that says "files received over
this link and meeting these criteria are to be executed" then it will
do so. If not, *nothing* in files received over that link can make the
computer execute them.

Look at it this way. There is *nothing* that can make *you* read a
piece of mail, or email unless you decide to. And you are intelligent.
So why should an *un*intelligent computer be able to do so. 

If that isn't strong enough, then instead of mail, consider a package
that has just been delivered. I don't care if the contents of the
package are intelligent or not. You aren't going to open it unless
*you* decide to. A computer will *never* open ity, unless it has
instructions telling it to open packages (and those instructions would
constitute a "back door" in the terminology we've been using).

> >Again I disagree. For the simple fact that while we may not understand
> >how the *hardware* works, it is still going to be performing a series
> >of simple logical operations.
 
> I see what you're saying.  I think I may have not understood what others
> were arguing about the PRO-VIRUS issues, but after recently rereading parts
> of Survival Margin, I think I have a few better explanations of why
> PRO-VIRUS is possible.

See my description in another message of a way in which the virus
*could* work.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 00:52:05 PST
Subject: Re: Psionic Suppression

"David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com> writes:

> I think that Leonard Erickson is missing the point when he talks about
> Psionic Suppression from a standpoint of making it illegal, etc.  The
> point was how does one go about masking/disrupting Psionics from a
> technical level...

The "Psionic Suppressions" are a historical event. And the basic thrust
was that the use of Psi was made illegal (and Psi got treated a lot
like Jews under Hitler)

Psi *shields* aren't really all that arguable, unless you want to claim
that Psi is "magic". If it *isn't* "magic", then it has to follow
rules, and those rules are part of the laws of physics. So, it follows
that there ought to be able to be a way to produce devices that use
those rules. And it is usually *much* easier to disrupt an effect than
to create it. 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 01:03:06 PST
Subject: Re: 20 questions about Virus

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> writes:

> >One *doesn't* have to know a great deal about computers. One merely has
> >to know the basic principles behind them.
> 
> Hate to tell you this, but basic principals can change.  One example is in
> *my* area of expertise, weapons.  We now are experimenting with liquid
> propellent guns.  Unbelievable muzzle energy, much cleaner, and almost no
> muzzle flash.  If this works out, gunpowder might join the buggy whip on
> history's back shelf.  The idea was first thought 30 years ago, but was
> dismissed as impossible "due to the basic principals of chemistry" (Jane's
> Defence Annual, 1995)

The "basic principles" of a gun are that it propels a projectile at great
speed. Thus, everything from the "hand cannon" thru the steam cannon
(yes, they actually built such things) on up to rail-guns still use the
same "basic principles". If they used other principles, they wouldn't
be a gun. If you want to get picky you can narrow it by requiring that
the propulsion be by means of expanding gases in a closed tube. That
excludes railguns (and catapults), but includes *everything* that the
average person would call a gun.

The basic principles of a computer are that it performs logical
operations upon data, according to a stored list of instructions (known
as a program). *how* it performs the operations, how the data is stored
or transfered, etc are all irrelevant.

Given the above basic principles, the virus has to either have physical
access to the computer, or the computer has to have a "back door".
Otherwise it can't infect. 

A "back door" would consist of a set of instructions in the computer (a
subprogram) telling it to execute files received in certain ways that
met certain criteria. Then the virus could just arrange to have itself
sent over the proper channel and appear to meet the criteria (say a
specific file header or file extension). 

> >FTL is pretty much a given in SF, and is necessary to make interstellar
> >travel practical for a game. Besides, there are *several* different
> >ways it could be accomplished in theory.
> 
> So you admit to using a poorly explained, unrealistic plot device to further
> your game?  Hypocracy, sir.

Where did I say it is "unrealistic"? FTL per se does not violate the
laws of the universe. In fact there are a lot of people who have tried
very hard for decades to find a way to prove that FTL *would* violate
the laws of phsyics. And they've had little luck.

> >Now we get to the computers and Virus bit. Computers are based on
> >*logic*. And most of the rules they are based on have been studied for
> >several thousand years! We've refined things a bit, and explored the
> >ins and outs, but the actual rules of logic are about as fixed as the
> >rules of geometry.
> 
> Men also studied aerodynamics and flew toy gliders and kites for several
> thousand years.  But it wasn't until the technology existed for the Wright
> Brothers that man actually flew.  Even then, we found that many of our basic
> assumptions were wrong. 

But the laws of aerodynamics didn't change. And for that matter, there
is a big difference between the laws of mathematics and the laws of
physics. 

The laws of phsyics can't be proven, only approximated. That's what the
scientific method *does*, enable us to improve the approximation.

The laws of mathematics and logic are *provable*. They *don't* change,
nor do they in any way depend on the technology that may make *use* of
them to do something.

> >Sure, they may have hardware we can't conceive of in the 57th century.
> >But the rules the *programs* have to follow won't be any different.
> >Logic is logic. How you *implement* a device to perform logical
> >operations doesn't affect the results of those operations (except that
> >if you don't do it right, the answers will be wrong).
> 
> I find this to be the most annoying thing in this thread.  We are talking
> about THREE THOUSAND SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS.  In 1700BCE, do you think anyone
> could even conceive of what we have now?  That was the Bronze age.. the
> concept of STEEL was unknown.  All their "basic assumptions" were based on
> the strength of bronze.  If you described the Golden Gate Bridge to the
> finest engineers of the Middle Kingdom, they would tell you that this was
> impossible, and could never be done.

You confuse technology, science, and mathematics. Much of the logic
that any computer operates on dates back to *before* Aristole! It is in
no way dependent on *any* technology.

In 1700 BCE they understood how to add, subtract, multiply and divide.
And they had a pretty good grasp of geometry. They probably had the
beginnings of logic as well. None of those depend on technology.

You confuse the *computer* and the *program*. We couldn't understand
their computers. We could most definitely understand their programs, it
might take a bit, but we could. And we wouldn't have any trouble
understanding the *logic* they use. I'm talking the mathematical logic,
not the "electronic logic".

It does not *matter* whether you perform an "And" operation
mechanically (like Babbage's difference engine), with relays, with
dicrete resistors and transistors, with simple ICs, with massively
intergrated ICs using whatever semiconductor, with quantum computers,
or with some technology we can't even dream of. The *logical operation*
remains the same. And it's been known for a couple of thousand years!
Ditto for OR, NOT, adding, subtracting, on thru the compares and
branches that make up all of programming when you get down to the
lowest level. 

Again, technology, science, and mathematics are *seperate* things.
Technology changes, new technologies get discovered, become common, and
then fade into history. Science, ever science the discovery of the
scientific method, *expands*. What's true will remain true, though it
may get qualifiers added. Mathematics is independent of reality.
Mathematical principles don't become obsolete. 2+2=4 whether you do it
by counting with pebbles, using an abacus, or a supercomputer.

And the laws of computer programming a *purely* mathematical.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 01:38:26 PST
Subject: Re: Virus Flame War

"David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com> writes:

> All of the things GDW claimed Virus could do are POSSIBLE (not necessarily
> PROBABLE).  Virus (assuming it is what GDW says it is (e.g.) a
> semi-sentient life form, that can manipulate raw silicon around it to grow
> and replicate) could spread from ship to ship quite easily using the Deyo
> Chip.  Since it already is the lifeform, it could manipulate the silicon
> around it and create more life, (e.g.) the mainframe.  Now given that (and
> it is a big given mind you), it becomes possible for Virus to infect via
> Deyo Chips. 

So far no problem

> Given the electronic nature of Virus, it once again is
> possible that it could attach to another computer, and through remote
> execution (done all the time BTW) could load up and execute a basic EGG if
> you will that would begin the rudimentary life process of Virus. 

And here's the rub. There are systems where emote execution is *never*
done. Most military systems for example. And even where it is done,
there are safeguards. No rational system designer would design a system
that would accept a transmission for an outside location and execute
the result unconditionally. 

But that's what's required for the virus to spread. It has to be able
to send something to another system and get that system to execute it
(with root privleges!) even though there's no conceivable *reason* for
the other system to allow that. 

*Why* would a transponder be authorized to make a system it is attached
to remotely execute code sent from the transponder? And why would the
life support control computer or the weponry control systems have *any*
system authorized to send them code to be remotely executed? (If I was
a pirate, I'd *love* to find a ship setup that way. Get someone on
board and you can take out weapon, life support, maybe even propulsion)

So again we are back to the old "the Virus uses a back door that exists
on all systems". And given even *recent* history, that's *stupid*. 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 01:56:03 PST
Subject: Re: Nukes in Space.....

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> writes:

> At 01:18 am 6/29/96 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> 
>         Looks interesting. 'Course, I think his credibility went down when
> he referred to the "inventing the miraculous X-Ray laser" -- that's
> something hard-nosed engineers already figure they can do ... talk to the
> guys who worked on the early full-coverage Strategic Defense Initiative. I
> don't recall what the program name was (Ground-Based Laser? somesuch). They
> were going to replace the normal warheads on ICBMs and SLBMs with X-Ray
> laser warheads, and launch on alert to take out evil nasty pinko-commie
> missiles.

Do recall that there was quite a flap a few years back (shortly *after*
they nuked most of SDI) when it came out that the X-ray laser program
had lots of theory and damn little results (something about the
underground blasts that they were testing X-ray laser configurations
with having shown *no* evidence of useful lasing!)

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 01:59:22 PST
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> writes:

> At 08:00 am 6/28/96 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> 
>         /* snip */
> 
> >The one way that "the Virus" *could* propogate would be as follows:
> >
> >Supposedly the IFF transponders all use the "living" chips, and exchange
> >data among themselves. Ok, that let's the virus jump from one
> >transponder to another.
> >
> >To jump to any other system, it *can't* infect via the datalinks, as
> >they carry *data* not executable code. So, what it has to do is
> >"cannibalize" part of the transponder circuitry to create a mobile
> >subunit capable of *physically* following the data links.
> 
>         /* snip */
> 
> >To translate this into PC terms, we'll have the transponder be the
> >modem. So the motile crawls through the cable to the serial port. Once
> >it gets there, the "relay" is exchanging the usual stuff with the
> >serial port, while only *part* of the cable is dedicated to that, and
> >the rest is handling the data between the motile and the modem (again,
> >the relay is making sure the data goes to the right place, so nothing
> >unusual seems to be happening).
> 
>         OK. As somebody pointed out, I may haven't gotten beaten up enough
> on SSDS, but I've still been very leery of getting involved with this
> discussion. Nevertheless, here goes:
> 
>         Using the transponder chips, it is NOT necessary to have a physical
> interface crawl from one transponder to the other.

I didn't say it was. The motile is crwaling from the transponder to the
NON-TRANSPONDER COMPUTERS linked to the transponder.

> ALL these chips are
> "bred" from some kind of "living" chip which preyed on other chips REMOTELY!

Sorry, wrong answer. They did not prey on other chips "remotely". They
preyed on the *physically*. Really!

>         So Virus was GUARANTEED that it had an entry point into a ship's
> system which it understood and knew. And it was GUARANTEED that that entry
> point was capable of supporting an AI Virus. From there it was a matter of
> entering the rest of the ship's system.

Right.

> Since the transponder, in order to
> perform its function of reporting where a ship had been, what it had done,
> etc. already had access to the rest of the ship's computers

No. It had acces to whatever computers have a reason to be linked to an
IFF transponder!

> and had learned its ship's own internal logic system,

Huh? Sorry, but all it would have "learned" are the comm protocols and
data formats coming down the links from systems that were attached to
it. To determine the "logic" of those systems it would have to
*physically* examine them. And an uninfected transponder has no reason
to do that. In fact, if it did, there'd have been screams of outrage
from everyone, because it couldn't be hidden for long.

The transponder just sits there happily gabbing with other transponders
and sucking power.

> once Virus managed to take over the
> transponder, it knew everything it needed to grab the rest of the system.

Nope, because the transponder had no such knowledge. Nor any *need* for
it.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 02:08:29 PST
Subject: Re: Rational Discussion

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> writes:

>         And the transponder KNEW how to interface with the rest of the ship
> ... it had to to perform its function

Being able to interface means being able to *communicate*. Being able
to take over requires a lot more. That's the point I *tried* to make
with the motile. You don't know *anything* about how a computer on the
other end of a datalink works. All you know is that it is capable of
sending data in an agreed upon protocol. 

We can link PCs, DEC minis (Vaxen), and IBM mainframes over a network.
But every single one of them *translates* the data from internal format
to the network's standard format inside the network interface card. Or
else with a driver resident in the machine. You can't tell which kind
of machine is on the other side of the interface just by looking at the
datastream. (Well, if the "machine name" is something like "vaxone" you
can guess, but...)






Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 02:16:20 PST
Subject: Re: Fission Reactors

cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic) writes:

> On Jun 28, 1996 20:03:52, '"Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>' wrote: 
>  
> >Plus, when refueling is required, it is more expensive and inconvenient.  
>  
> If it is widely used, ships and fueling facilities will be designed 
> such that removing spent fuel rods and replacing them will be 
> less trouble than pulling an engine from a 747 and putting a new 
> one in.  Cost is reflected in fuel costs. 

Well, given that don't need to refuel very *often*, I'd say that they
wouldn't bother. If I recall correctly, ships have required
maintainence that happens a *lot* more often than refueling does. So
combining refueling with the annual overhaul would make a lot of sense.
So you don't need to make it all *that* easy to refuel.

Expense is just a matter of the fuel being inherently more expensive.
But that is likely offset by the infrequency of refueling. After all,
it might sound outrageuos to have a car that cost $1000 to refuel. But
if it only needs to be refueled once a year, that suddenly looks a lot
better. :-)

> Why balance it?  Isn't the Sylean edge supposedly the better  
> fusion plants at TL12?  Who cares if TL11 fission plants are 
> better than TL11 fusion plants? 

Anybody who needs to design TL11 ships! :-)



Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 02:24:55 PST
Subject: Re: 20 thoughts on virus

cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic) writes:

> To attack an uncontrolled system, the CPU on which the Virus 
> is already running (hereafter called the "Virus CPU") *must* 
> be in communication with the target CPU.  This is consistant 
> with canon. Once you have that, no "magic" or illogical-according 
> -to-current-knowledge assumptions are required; Virus just 
> plays Super Hacker.
<snip>
> The target CPU must have some means of communicating with the 
> outside world and accepting commands; without that, it's just 
> an expensive electronic sock warmer.  If Virus can access that 
> communication/command channel/socket/frequency/blah/blah/blah, 
> sooner or later it can hack its way in and take over the target 
> CPU.   

I think our difference here is that there's no reason for the link to
the infected computer to be set up to accept commands, rather than
data. And there are a lot of good reasons *not* to set it up that way. 

> >So any explanation of how the virus infects a system has to explain how 
> >the system can be changedto allow the virus *before* the virus is 
> >loaded. (You can run C64 programs on a PC if you load an emulator, but 
> >the c-64 program can't load the emulator on the PC, the PC has to do 
> >that in accordance with it's current programming) 
>  
> If your PC is hooked to the Internet, and running a real OS like 
> linux, someone could write a worm that would exploit a security 
> hole to get itself root access, download a C64 emulator, and  
> then run the C64 program in it...  Given (a) communications access, 
> (b) imperfect security, and (c) enough capability in the target system 
> to actually do anything useful, you can do all kinds of interesting 
> things.   

Of course, if I have the PC running in protected mode, and I have the
comm session running in a restricted segment, not much is going to
happen except that there'll be a access violation the first time the
worm tries to access anything the comm session wasn't allowed access to.

Of course on a 386 and up system, if you are allowed access to the
right things, you can *exit* protected mode. On a 286, that requires
access to a specific port *and* knowing how that system is set up to
allow playing games to get out of protected mode. And if it's an old
enough 286, you *can't* do it. (some old 286 systems don't support the
"controlled CPU reset" trick used to get from protected mode to real
mode) 

> It is hypothesized that the only perfect security is that of 
> having no outside communications at all, which makes the system 
> useless, of course.  Therefore, if there is an external method 
> of control, security is, by definition, imperfect. 

Ah! But if there is external *communication*, but not external
*control* you can be as secure as your paranoia allows. 

> machines. Data *can* affect hardware; there is a moderately well 
> known example from the early days of the space program where a 
> repetitive, tight loop being executed within a CPU caused dopant  
> migration sufficient to cripple the CPU in a satellite. They 
> fixed it by sending it instructions for another tight loop that 
> reversed the dopant migration.  Note that it wasn't what the 
> instructions told it to do that caused the damage, it was the 
> repetitive bit pattern set in the CPU's transistors. A repetitive 
> data stream of the same type would have caused the same damage. 

Heck, even easier if all you want to do is kill the system. A number of
systems using the 6845 CRT controller could be fried by writing the
right data to it. And other systems have other shortcomings.

> >60s. And some of the other ways that security can be breached that were 
> >described in the early 70s are far beyond anything anyone has tried. 
> >Yet military, government, and even large business computer requirements 
> >are designed to protect against these. 
>  
> Are you so sure they haven't been tried?  A successful security 
> breach, like the perfect crime, is never detected as such. 

Some of them, while quite subtle and thus capable of doing all sorts of
nasties, are just more work than is needed given the *known* security
holes. Why bother with things like compromising the compilers (You do
know about that one don't you?)

> >Psionics is not explainable. More or less by definition. :-) 
>  
> It also exists in the real world, though not with the fine 
> precision and scientific training of Traveller psionics. 

I know. :-)

> If you'd like to elaborate on various points, or argue points 
> I left undeveloped, please do.  But stop dogmatically insisting 
> that Virus is illogical. It's not. 

As *presented* it's illogical. Any of a number of assumptions makes it
workable. It's just that they not only didn't state them, they seem to
have been trying to say that they weren't needed.

> (where's my .sig! Something ate it)

It was delicious! <the Virus>


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #194
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 1 July 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 195

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Overexplaining technology
         2. Re: Language Questions.
         3. Re: Virus rocks
         4. Re: TML msgs
         5. Re: Fission Reactors
         6. Re: *NOT* the Virus
         7. Wasted Bandwidth Flame, was (Re: TML msgs) (LONG)
         8. More SSDS Formats
         9. More on cargo/freight
        10. Naval Ships in Milieu 0
        11. Re: Deckplans
        12. Re: BL vs. BR
        13. Fission vs Fusion
        14. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #180
        15. Re: Virus
        16. Re: Virus by Email

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 02:57:04 PST
Subject: Re: Overexplaining technology

Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> >>Computers were designed in the 1800s. They just didn't have the ability
> >>to machine the parts required (these were mechanical systems).
> 
> This would be wee Mister Babbage's Difference Engine.  Imagine if this 
> thing worked how different the world would be today.

It's also a good example of a *nasty* trick to play on a lower tech
group. It's something that is beyond their technical skills, but close
enough that it looks like they *could* pull it off.

Do this with a weapon design, and you've got a great way to keep that
petty dictator busy until he's wasted enough money and resources to let
his neighbors (or his population) overthrow him.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 02:47:10 PST
Subject: Re: Language Questions.

Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> writes:

> make a more specific query: If characters from the Sylean Federation
> (milieu 0) happened upon a base from the late Second Imperium/Rule of Man
> (i.e., just before the Long Night), would they be able to read the signs
> and button labels therein? 

I'd say they could. *BUT*, they may be able to read just enough to get
themselves into *real* trouble. Word meanings change over time. A
couple of examples:

"making love" used to mean "courting" or perhaps "flirting" would be
closer. "Roger", a commonly used phrase in radio traffic <g> was *not*
a word one used in polite society in the 1600s or 1700s (definitely
modern English). "Awful" used to mean "full of awe" or "causing awe".
"Artificial" meant "showing great artifice (skill)". 

So just guess what sort of booby traps may be waiting for the players.
Look at what happened to "awful". "Something awful will happen" changed
meaning 180 degrees over a few centuries. If that happened with a
technical term, or some phrase commonly used on controls they could
*really* "roger" themselves. :-)


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 03:16:15 PST
Subject: Re: Virus rocks

sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin) writes:

> My biggest complaint about Virus is that no provision was ever made for it
> to gain control of asteroids, accelerate them to 0.1c, and slam them into
> planets.

They can do it the same way as everybody else!

> My second biggest is that no provision was ever made for PCs to
> throw asteroids into the Virus.
 
Surely a better way to take out the virus would be Donkey Kong? That's
a *lot* more computationally intensive than Asteroids. 

:-)



Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 08:41:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: TML msgs

On 1 Jul 1996 robert.brennan@isocor.ie wrote:

> Hi joe,
> 
> could you please reduce the amount that you quote when you mail to the
> traveller lists.  The present level of traffic means that any decrease in bandwidth
> would be appreciated.
> tx
> rob
> 

Rob,

I'm forwarding this to the lists not to increase bandwidth usage, but 
because I think it is important that others see your message and my reply.

First, let me say that I have not been inflexible in the amount of 
quoting I do.  When I saw the first post in XTML that complained about 
the amount of quoting, I began paying more attention to that.  While I 
may have occasionally slipped since then (I've been on-line 
for many years, and old habits die hard), I feel I've done a good job of 
keeping the quoting to that necessary to allow everyone - even those who 
haven't seen the original post (for instance, new subscribers, those 
who have been away on holiday, or those who simply, for whatever reason, 
didn't read the message I am replying to) - to follow the conversation.  

When I originally subscribed to these lists, I posted many of my house 
rules in Xboat, as you may recall if you subscribed at that time.  I have 
also tried to contribute meaningfully to the conversations ongoing.    
But, I noted that there were increasing complaints from some XMLers 
regarding the level of cross-posting and the number of lines quoted, so 
I stopped posting to XTML for the most part.  All of my new material 
appears only on TML.  

Since I want to have the widest possible audience for my contributions, 
it makes the most sense to post to the "all games welcome here" TML 
rather than the splinter-sect "Only CT and MT" XTML - even though I'm 
primarily a CT referee.  

Now that I've received your email complaint regarding the amount of 
quoting I do on TML, I'm beginning to wonder whether posting to these 
lists is worth it at all.  Who needs to hear the numerous complaints 
about wasted bandwidth, when I'm spending my free time trying to join in 
with the many other great people here who are enhancing the Traveller 
experience?  It's not like I quote entire posts and add only "yeah, I 
agree."  Every time I post, I try to add something meaningful to the 
discussion.  I may or may not succeed, depending on your perspective, but 
that is always my attempt.

I have been on-line for many years, and have developed a style of 
posting that I think conveys the most information in the best method.  
Others feel differently, and that's OK.  But I do not believe in the 
theory that X lines of quoting is going to work every time...no matter 
what number you substitute for X.  Some say 2 lines, and others would 
rather see no quoting.  I try to quote enough so that anyone coming into 
the conversation without having access to older posts will be able to 
follow the conversation.  I do this because I believe what we discuss 
here is that important.  

I admit that the current humor thread has perhaps too much quoting, but I 
took that as a part of the humor of the situation.  That thread is a 
parody of all the arguments we've had recently, and I'm enjoying it.  The 
fact that it's gotten to seven or so levels of quoting is part of the 
humor precisely because of people such as yourself who have posted to the 
lists asking for less quoting - another type of flame, which is being 
parodied.

If I've been out of line in my quoting style because the mailing list 
culture is different from usenet and BBS culture, then I apologize.  If 
the people who contribute to this list feel that is the case, then I will 
change my ways.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 10:03:15 PDT
Subject: Re: Fission Reactors

>> special rules for disasters.  So should fission reactors; 
>> a properly designed fission reactor is far safer than 
>> any other known power generation technology.   
>
>Yup.  By far.  For normal operations.  Having rules for what happens
>when a PAW rips the reactor core apart is a different story.
>  
>You're right though, I'd puke if I saw some crap about nukes leaking
>radiation in normal use.  It is possible, though if they aren't taken
>care of.  People errors, nothing wrong with the technology of it.
>
I agree. I am designing a TL7-8 monitor and fission is the best choice
for power. I do think that the evolutionary chain of engineering
development would indicate the fragile nature of fission systems. There
would be pressure to put armor around the reactor in military systems.
On the other hand, there would also be safety systems to eject
radioactive debris into space and away from crewed areas.

IMO there should be an armor *requirement* for fission reactors on
combat vessels. The requirement could be a rule expressly stating such,
or a bad effect from combat that the designers want to avoid. The armor
requirement should be broken down into safety systems and actual
protection. This is a case where the FFS subsystem armor actually is
needed.

- --norm fenlason


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 08:16:42 -0800
Subject: Re: *NOT* the Virus

On  1 Jul 96 at 0:19, Leonard Erickson spewed:

> right on up to the present. (Remember, the laws against the Jews in
> the Third Reich were passed *democratically*).

This is, while technically the truth, a distortion of the facts...  
The Third Reich in 1934-36 (when most of the anti-semitic laws was 
passed, was a democracy in name only).  Hitler basically wrote the 
laws, gave a speech before the Reichstag (which was a rubber stamp 
body, with all opposition parties banned by this time), and turned 
the Gestapo loose...  

Facts are that the Weimar Republic was dead a full year before Hitler 
came to power, when Hindenburg began rule by emergency decree.  The 
last year before Hitler was basically deciding what sort of 
government would succeed it.

Nonetheless, the vast majority of Democratic or Republican forms of 
government have fallen due to internal turmoil.  Then again the same 
can be said of monarchies, military governments, dictatorships, 
etc...  

> How many folks right now care *how* their UN representative is
> appointed/elected/whatever? The Imperium doesn't affect everyday life
> *on planet* much more than the UN affects everday life in most
> countries. 

Hell, let's face it, the US is a government of nobility.  How many 
working class people have been elected President.  If you realize 
that the majority of people aren't even registered to vote, and half 
of them don't vote, most elections are decided by about 25% of the 
populace.  In local elections, its even less.  This sure as hell 
doesn't meet the classical definition of a democracy...

> (BTW, consider folks like the Kennedys and Rockefellers. They are *not*
> that far from being a "hereditary nobility"!)

Or the Forbes family for that matter...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 08:16:42 -0800
Subject: Wasted Bandwidth Flame, was (Re: TML msgs) (LONG)

On  1 Jul 96 at 8:41, Joe Walsh spewed:

<Big SNIP>

> agree."  Every time I post, I try to add something meaningful to the 
> discussion.  I may or may not succeed, depending on your perspective, but 
> that is always my attempt.

Joe, I did not perceive your quotings as being out of line.  
Sometimes I'll pick up something in mid thread, and somebody who 
does useful quoting is a blessing then.

<Big SNIP>

Much worse on bandwidth than people quoting each other has been the 
topics of discussions recently, of which I have been guilty in the 
past.  Has anybody here ever read the FAQ?????  I now understand why the 
Virus and Rocks arguments are listed on there as done to death!

After watching the flame wars on this list regarding virus in the 
past few weeks, I think we ought to change to a less controversial 
subject, like ABORTION or RELIGION, for example!!!!!

About a week ago, I came to the conclusion that no more meaningful 
discussion on the topic of virus could be had within the confines of 
this list.  It had degenerated into 2 sides both of which were more 
determined to prove that they were 100% right than to try to learn 
from the other, which IS after all, THE POINT of debate, anyways...

For the aforementioned week, I have made it a point not to read 
ANY postings with the word Virus in the subject heading...  I can 
assure you that a lot of the lurkers out there are doing the same.  
In fact if you really pay attention to the list, the lurkers are dropping 
like flies...2 or 3 of them are unsubscribing a day, most since the 
virus and rocks debates started happening.  You all may have been 
saying something useful (though I doubt it), but if it had Virus in 
the title, it probably didn't even get skimmed by me.

We've just about let the rocks argument die.  Back off on the Virus 
arguments, and take them off the list to private e-mail if you 
please.  Believe me, there is no intelligent or new point that can be 
made, that hasn't already been made about a thousand times in the 
past 3 weeks already...usually in ALLCAPS.

Sorry to rage for a while, but this is really getting old...  :-(

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 10:18:04 -0600
Subject: More SSDS Formats

        Three more formats are available from the FFSLight page  -- thanks
to Ross Coburn. Now showing: Word for Mac 5.1, Adobe Portable Document
Format, and Postscript.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 09:41:41 -0700
Subject: More on cargo/freight

One thing I would like to see in an expanded system is an accounting of the
*mass* of your cargo.  There is a big difference between loading my Free
Trader with kinu-down pillows and Sees'nu ornamental lead idols.

I did something like this with MT, using the expanded trade tables I just
assaigned a range of densities to the various cargos.. made up a few tables.
The look on my players' faces when I told them that their ship was way over
mass limits for their CG system.....

+----------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry     dberry@hooked.net |
|  Professional Driver - Traveller Guru  |
|   This is the thread that never ends,  |
|   It just goes on and on, my friend.   |
|  Some people started flaming it, not   |
|          knowing what it was,          |
|    And now they'll go on flaming it    |
|         forever, just because          |
| This is the thread that never ends.... |
+----------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 09:41:44 -0700
Subject: Naval Ships in Milieu 0

A quick idea to throw out.. What is the proper "header" for an Imperial Navy
ship?  USS is used for the US Navy, etc..

I'm leaning towards HMS (His Majesty's Ship), but then I've been reading a
lot of David Weber this week..

Comments?  How about civilain vessels?

+----------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry     dberry@hooked.net |
|  Professional Driver - Traveller Guru  |
|   This is the thread that never ends,  |
|   It just goes on and on, my friend.   |
|  Some people started flaming it, not   |
|          knowing what it was,          |
|    And now they'll go on flaming it    |
|         forever, just because          |
| This is the thread that never ends.... |
+----------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 11:46:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Deckplans

For ye Windows folks (3.1 or better) the program Visio allows one to not
only draw lines and such on a nice grid, it's main feature is the ability
to draw 'objects' and use them over and over.  I have made objects for all
the standard features of a starship (iris valves on floor, ceiling, wall;
chairs, bunks, turrets, desks, etc.  Some were already in the
office/layout object set)

Unfortunately (and this is a big problem!) it saves files in a .vsd format
which does not convert to .gif, .jpg, or anything else nice.

It is a commercial program and, since I use it at work, I do not know how
much it costs (not more than $100).

There is a shareware program for DOS out there that lets you make
different tiles and lay them out, but I never really worked on it since it
didn't have any printing capability.

Pete


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 09:47:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: BL vs. BR

>> What are these two games like?  Are they tactical games (small unit 
>> scale) or more like grand strategic simulators?

> Brilliant Lances is the more tactically-focussed game, while Battle
> Rider is probably your 'grand strategic simulator.'

Untrue.  Both games use the same spatial, temporal, and unit scales.  
Both are purely tactical simulations.  Fifth Frontier War is an example 
of a "grand strategic" game.  In general, 'tactics' describes how a 
particular battle is fought, when opposing units move into engagement; 
'strategy' describes how forces are deployed so as to fight engagements 
favorable to your objectives.  To use a real-world example, the decision 
of where and when to stage the invasion of France in 1944 was strategic; 
the process of actually taking the five beaches was tactical.

Because a game must be somewhat focussed to be playable, strategic 
simulations usually feature hightly abstract combat-resolution and unit 
type rules, while tactical simulations contain little information about 
the reasons for the battle, potential alternate goals for either side, or 
the effect of simultaneous battles elsewhere on the front.

It is frequently convenient to define a level between 'strategic' and 
'tactical' called 'operational'.  The operational scale is distinguished 
by being small enough that, for example, artillery units have a 
noticeable range, and questions of terrain and maneuver become 
meaningful.  However, units still represent many troops and/or vehicles, 
and combat resolution remains abstract.  Avalon Hill's Panzerblitz and 
Panzer Leader games were at the low end of operational scale, and SPI's 
The Next War at the (very) high end.  Closer to home, Invasion: Earth is 
a good example of operational scale.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 1 Jul 96  9:16:19 MS
Subject: Fission vs Fusion

> ...Maybe explain why you'd want to use TL9-11 Fusion plants  
> when TL8 Fission plants are cheaper & smaller (ie: what are  
> the game effects to using fission). 

I would guess a good reason for "upgrading" to a larger and more expensive TL9 
Fusion plant would be lower overhead.  The Fusion plants are assumed to be 
fueled by hydrogen, while the fission plants would need more expensive and less 
easily handled fuel rods.  Not a big deal over a couple of years, but if you 
are expecting 20+ years of service, the extra cost is more than made up by the 
convenience and low upkeep of the fusion plant.   Just a guess, but it makes 
sense.  This would need to be expanded into actual "game rules" of course; cost 
of fission fuel rods, how long they last, etc.


Oh, yeah...
Welcome back, Cynthia!

------------------------------

From: "V.A.G." <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 18:51:41 MET
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #180

- -> <snip>
- -> 
- -> > >"this is the thread that never ends,
- -> > >it just goes on and on my frinds,
- -> > >some people started flaming it not knowing what it was
- -> > >and they'll continue flaming it forever just because..
- -> 
- -> > "this is the thread that never ends,
- -> > it just goes on and on my frinds,
- -> > some people started flaming it not knowing what it was
- -> > and they'll continue flaming it forever just because..
- -> 
- -> This is the thread that never ends,
- -> It just goes on and on my frinds,
- -> some peope started flaming it not knowing what it was
- -> and they'll continue flaming it forever just because... 

This is the tread that never ends,
It goes on and on my frinds,
some people started flaming it not knowing what it was
and they'll continue flaming it forever just because....
V.A.G.
- ------ 
- -"Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!!"

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 11:03:33 -0600
Subject: Re: Virus

At 12:38 am 7/1/96 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>And what we are trying to say is that the computer *cannot* execute
>code that the *existing* code on the computer hasn't told it to run.
>It's not a matter of human intervention. It's that the "code" that
>comprises the virus may come over a comm link, just linke a file comes
>over your Internet link. But unless the *existing* software on that
>computer has instructions to start running the contents of the file, it
>won't. Just like your system won't execute email. 
>
>The *computer* has to make the "decision" to run the virus. And that
>decision is based on whatever is running on the computer *before* the
>virus gets there. If it has programming that says "files received over
>this link and meeting these criteria are to be executed" then it will
>do so. If not, *nothing* in files received over that link can make the
>computer execute them.

        Except the Cymbeline transponder chip IS SEMI-SENTIENT and IS
VULNERABLE to a species of Cymbeline chip that Survival Margin specifically
states preys on other chips FROM A DISTANCE by "convincing" them to recode
themselves. Once you've taken over the transponder, which by Imperial law
HAS access to the rest of the system, you're in.

        Mind you, all this assumes you can buy the whole Cymbeline "sentient
chip" thingy and the idea of their use as universal transponders which
nobody knows are talking to each other nonstop ... I had trouble. So in my
universe I didn't explain Virus in detail. It made a good plot device. I
assumed its effects had been wildly exagerrated by fear and paranoia, and
decided that the truth had been lost and the players had no way of finding
it out, at least at first. Since I lost my group before they ever got
anywhere near needing a decent explanation...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 11:03:37 -0600
Subject: Re: Virus by Email

At 01:59 am 7/1/96 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> writes:
>Sorry, wrong answer. They did not prey on other chips "remotely". They
>preyed on the *physically*. Really!

        Sorry, wrong answer. Read survival margin p71 or p79 "... 'wild
strains' which could command prey chips to cut new circuitry without having
to come into physical contact with them." They *did* prey on other chips
"remotely," not *physically*.

>No. It had acces to whatever computers have a reason to be linked to an
>IFF transponder!

        p70, Survival margin, " ... from their own ship's main computer core
and databanks, to which the transponders have unimpeded access." The basic
assumption that the ship's main computer had a reason to be linked to the
rest of the ship's systems is left for the student.

>> and had learned its ship's own internal logic system,
>
>Huh? Sorry, but all it would have "learned" are the comm protocols and
>data formats coming down the links from systems that were attached to
>it. To determine the "logic" of those systems it would have to
>*physically* examine them. And an uninfected transponder has no reason

        Why does it have to *physically* examine it? First of all, it had
"unimpeded access." Try giving unimpeded access to some people I know, even
over a dumb terminal. They *will* get into your system without ever having
to *physically* access it.

>> once Virus managed to take over the
>> transponder, it knew everything it needed to grab the rest of the system.
>
>Nope, because the transponder had no such knowledge. Nor any *need* for
>it.

        It had *need* because it was constantly accessing ("unimpeded") the
main computer. After all, it's job isn't just to sit there and squawk "I'm
the Free Trader Beowulf, AWK!" See p70 of Survival Margin again. It has to
not only convince the other ship's transponders it's who it says it is, it
has to convince the other guy it hasn't been tampered with, and the ship
isn't a threat. 
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #195
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 1 July 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 196

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Deckplans
         2. Re: 20 questions about Virus
         3. Re: Rational Discussion
         4. Re: Wasted Bandwidth Flame, was (Re: TML msgs) (LONG)
         5. Re: BL vs. BR
         6. Re: Virus
         7. Re: More on cargo/freight
         8. But why?
         9. Re: [T96#187] Languages
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #195
        11. Re: Brilliant Lances vs. Battle Rider
        12. Re: Population of the Imperium

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 11:07:34 -0600
Subject: Re: Deckplans

At 11:46 am 7/1/96 -0500, you wrote:
>For ye Windows folks (3.1 or better) the program Visio allows one to not
>only draw lines and such on a nice grid, it's main feature is the ability
>to draw 'objects' and use them over and over.  I have made objects for all
>the standard features of a starship (iris valves on floor, ceiling, wall;
>chairs, bunks, turrets, desks, etc.  Some were already in the
>office/layout object set)
>
>Unfortunately (and this is a big problem!) it saves files in a .vsd format
>which does not convert to .gif, .jpg, or anything else nice.

        Does it save to *anything* other than .vsd? Most Windows programs
will let you export to .wmf. And I'm *sure* it'll let you cut a drawing and
paste it into another program that DOES export to wmf.

        As for getting GIFs or JPGs, you can use something like LView to
capture the windows to a gif file.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 11:03:36 -0600
Subject: Re: 20 questions about Virus

At 01:03 am 7/1/96 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>The basic principles of a computer are that it performs logical
>operations upon data, according to a stored list of instructions (known
>as a program). *how* it performs the operations, how the data is stored
>or transfered, etc are all irrelevant.

        So you're saying a neural network is NOT a computer. A true neural
network HAS no instructions.

>Given the above basic principles, the virus has to either have physical
>access to the computer, or the computer has to have a "back door".
>Otherwise it can't infect. 

        See survival margin again. The TRANSPONDER IS THE BACK DOOR.


>And the laws of computer programming a *purely* mathematical.

        No. The "laws of computer programming" AS WE KNOW THEM today have a
mathematical bent. But not completely. You generally have to use a special
programming language to be able to *prove* a program is correct, for example.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 11:03:40 -0600
Subject: Re: Rational Discussion

At 02:08 am 7/1/96 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> writes:
>
>>         And the transponder KNEW how to interface with the rest of the ship
>> ... it had to to perform its function
>
>Being able to interface means being able to *communicate*. Being able
>to take over requires a lot more. That's the point I *tried* to make
>with the motile. You don't know *anything* about how a computer on the
>other end of a datalink works. All you know is that it is capable of
>sending data in an agreed upon protocol. 

        But if I have full access, there's quite a bit I can can learn
WITHOUT EVER having to be in the same room with a computer.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:37:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Wasted Bandwidth Flame, was (Re: TML msgs) (LONG)

On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> Joe, I did not perceive your quotings as being out of line.  
> Sometimes I'll pick up something in mid thread, and somebody who 
> does useful quoting is a blessing then.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.  I feel better. :)

[snip]

> About a week ago, I came to the conclusion that no more meaningful 
> discussion on the topic of virus could be had within the confines of 
> this list.  It had degenerated into 2 sides both of which were more 
[snip]

I came to the same conclusion right before I posted that apology for 
engaging in that particular discussion.  Since then, I've read a few of 
the posts, but have ignored most of them.

> We've just about let the rocks argument die.  Back off on the Virus 
> arguments, and take them off the list to private e-mail if you 
> please.  Believe me, there is no intelligent or new point that can be 
[snip]
> Sorry to rage for a while, but this is really getting old...  :-(

I really don't mind the arguments that never die.  I don't pay per byte, 
and deleting them is as simple as hitting one key.  What's starting to 
concern me is the fact that there are few other discussions going on.  
It's almost like Virus were taking over TML . . . 


- -JOe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 19:13:32 GMT
Subject: Re: BL vs. BR

Perhaps you can tell me what tonnage, armour, weaponry, etc. are "canon"
for these big ships.  I want to begin a campaign shortly after T4 comes out
and I don't really want to pick up BR just to see how TNE designs their
capital ships (perhaps when IG designs a set of advanced ship combat rules,
but not before then  8-)

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 14:10:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus

At 09:17 AM 7/1/96 -0400, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>The *computer* has to make the "decision" to run the virus. And that
>decision is based on whatever is running on the computer *before* the
>virus gets there. If it has programming that says "files received over
>this link and meeting these criteria are to be executed" then it will
>do so. If not, *nothing* in files received over that link can make the
>computer execute them.
>
>Look at it this way. There is *nothing* that can make *you* read a
>piece of mail, or email unless you decide to. And you are intelligent.
>So why should an *un*intelligent computer be able to do so. 

You've never been served with a summons, have you?  Let me put it plainly:
I did not want to testify in the trial involved.  We didn't answer the
phone, I avoided my ususal hangouts.. did everything I could.

Then on the bus.. this guy looks at me.. says "Didn't you go to Leigh High
back in the early 80s?  On the speech team?"  I say yes, and he reaches over
to shake my hand, introducing himself.  I'm a polite guy, I reach out and
state my name.

Whammo.  There was a summons in my hand, and my new "friend" informing me
that I had been served.

The recieveing computer may be dumb, but Virus is smart.  It may take weeks
for it to find a chink in the OS that allows it to take over.  Remember how
Dulinor bled ships after the release? (Survival Margin)  Dulinor's own
flagship made it back to Illiesh before Virus disabled it.

This is my last post on the subject.  Mr. Erickson seems to firmly believe
that since he cannot conceive of how to do it, it isn't possible.  Of
course, that's what a computer professional in the 1940s would have said if
you described the PC I'm using right now.




+----------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry     dberry@hooked.net |
|  Professional Driver - Traveller Guru  |
|   This is the thread that never ends,  |
|   It just goes on and on, my friend.   |
|  Some people started flaming it, not   |
|          knowing what it was,          |
|    And now they'll go on flaming it    |
|         forever, just because          |
| This is the thread that never ends.... |
+----------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:15:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: More on cargo/freight

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
> 
> One thing I would like to see in an expanded system is an accounting of the
> *mass* of your cargo.  There is a big difference between loading my Free
> Trader with kinu-down pillows and Sees'nu ornamental lead idols.

The kinu, a silicon-based lifeform found on an inner world of the Quopist
system, has a feathery down composed of iridium/tungsten allow, density
(allowing for air gaps) approximately 8 g/cm3.  Conversely, the Sees'nu
idols are small (approx. 4 cm) figurines surrounded by a light wicker
framework some 1.5 m across, decorated with haaneth blossoms and skra'ana
hair, having a net density of about 1 g/cm3.  So yes, there's a big
difference. :)

Kinu-down pillows, by the way, find a ready market among the ascetic 
monks of the Ecatl-Chalchihuitl Community, whose monasteries dot the 
worlds of Lanth and Vilis subsectors.

> I did something like this with MT, using the expanded trade tables I just
> assaigned a range of densities to the various cargos.. made up a few tables.
> The look on my players' faces when I told them that their ship was way over
> mass limits for their CG system.....

You know, perhaps we should provide special trade rules for cases like 
this.  One might posit a separate category of cargo, covering extremely 
dense materials which make unusual demands on ship CG and propulsion 
systems.  Fees would be higher for cargos in this category.  
Hmmmm...dense metals...costs more...

How about "Bismuth Class"?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 17:30:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: But why?

Eris spake:
:On 06/29/96 at 11:29 AM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:
:>        So Virus was GUARANTEED that it had an entry point into a
:>ship's system which it understood and knew. And it was GUARANTEED
:>that that entry point was capable of supporting an AI Virus. From
:>there it was a matter of entering the rest of the ship's system.

:I *know* the transponder performed IFF.  I know the canon 3I
:*required* it on ships.  I know, I know, but I'm sneaky, paranoid, and
:distrustful...so are my players..we NEVER liked transponders, we never
:trusted transponders.  There's no way we'd give a transponder any
:*real* access to the ship's systems, not in my universe anyway.  <g>

   Yep, us too. I find it so hard to believe that *everybody* would
   accept transponders so easily, and not try to get around it. Criminal
   types (ie, PCs <g>) will ALWAYS try to find ways around stuff like
   this, and there is NO WAY I'd let something like that have unrestricted
   access to my ship's systems precisely because it leaves it so wide
   open to outside shenanigans.

   For the record, I don't have a problem with *a* Virus, just GDW's
   contradictory explanations. There are lots of ways to implement Virii
   without so violently offending so many people.


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 



------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 17:26:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#187] Languages

Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com> saith:

T::>Quoth William F. Hostman:
 ::>> In both cases, you're probably overlooking the highly likely different
 ::>> character set imposed by the intermingling of vilani influences...Where
 ::>> modern english differs mostly in spelling and clutural ideomatic
 ::>> expressions (one of shakespear's greatest problems for the modern reader is
 ::>> his constant punning and slang derived double ententres), Sylean would have
 ::>> over a millenia of borrowed terms, added characters, and half a milenia of
 ::>> quasi-isolated evolution...

T::>I doubt that Galanglic uses a variant character set.  Given that Galanglic
 ::>is descended from Anglic, which is evidently English plus assorted other
 ::>Terran-language influences (most of which probably use the Latin alphabet:
 ::>Arabic is just not going to be that influential, Chinese is just ideographs
 ::>so far, Japanese katakana and Slavic cyrillic characters are already
 ::>readily and frequently transliterated), the Galanglic character set will
 ::>almost surely (IMHO) consist of English/Latin letters, possibly with some
 ::>understood variant pronunciations for consonant clusters ("zd", etc.)
 ::>representing transliterations from Vilani, Sylean, Luriani, or whatever
 ::>else gets picked up along the way.  Okay, I might grant you a French
 ::>cedilla, a Spanish tilde, and maybe a few other assorted accents and
 ::>modifiers.  Maybe even a few "new" letters in some dialects to simplify
 ::>combinations like "sh" and "th".  But the basic structure and character
 ::>of the alphabet, particularly if literacy isn't lost during the Long
 ::>Night, should remain constant.

 Not necessarily true - Consider: the evolution of the modern
 European alphabets have all been traced back to Phoenician,
 Aramaic, and Hebrew; yet none of those writing forms is
 recognizable to a modern reader of any language except Hebrew -
 and the Hebrew reader would be unable to deal with Phoenician, and
 would have a bit of trouble with both Aramaic and to a lesser
 extent, old-style Hebrew.  Also, the Latin alphabet is derived
 from the older Greek alphabet (which is readable by modern
 Greeks), as is the Cyrillic, yet any one of the three languages
 will be unintelligible to anyone totally unschooled in it.

 Moreover, the evolution of _all_ modern forms from the ancient
 forms is really over the last 3,000 years; here, we're talking as
 much more time, with the availability of totally alien writing
 systems as well.  Further, the First Imperium doubtless used
 Vilani script (for thousands of years, IIRC); how likely is it
 that a _total_ conversion to Solomani Anglic could be accomplished
 over a mere 400 years, especially when you're dealing with at
 least 5,000 planets.  Only if a new system is easier to use than
 an old system is such a conversion likely to occur, and even then,
 it won't be a rapid conversion.

T::>English changed so much after the Norman occupation precisely _because_
 ::>there was no written form of the language (in fact, that's when we got
 ::>rid of all our declensions!).  The Second Imperium is likely to be a
 ::>two-tier language system, using both Anglic (for upper-level dealings)
 ::>and Vilani (for dealings with occupied populaces), with those who want
 ::>to advance in society learning the occupiers' language.  Thus it's much
 ::>like the eighteenth/nineteenth-century colonial empires.  But each language
 ::>will maintain its original alphabet, and change only in vocabulary and
 ::>style.

 All of the XVIIIc examples I can think of used a common alphabet,
 so that part of your theory has no backing - nor disproof.  On the
 other hand, I point out that Korea has been under Chinese
 suzerainty for most of its existence, yet it was a king from the
 Medieval period or before that created the modern Korean writing
 system (Hangul).  The Chinese have been bureaucrats \par
 excellance et non-pareil\ for centuries; do you not think that
 they would have tried to impose their writing system on Korea?
 (N.B. Hangul is something of a "planned" writing system; it didn't
 develop naturally from earlier systems.  Each of what looks to
 Western eyes like a single "character" [a la Chinese, or Japanese
 Kanji] is in fact built up out of up to three components - an
 initial consonant, a medial vowel, and a final consonant. [Gee,
 where have I seen that breakdown before?])  So, perhaps you're
 right about a particular culture keeping its own language and
 writing system.

 On the other side of the coin, there is the issue of translation
 and transcription.  When you are doing either for people that do
 not speak the source language, you are doing it into an alphabet
 that they recognize - usually, their own.  You do the best that
 you can, given that there may be sounds that are not normally or
 cannot be represented in the target language - for example, the
 tones in many of the oriental languages, or the gutturals in many
 middle eastern and eastern European languages.  Sometimes, you
 succeed reasonably well, as when you write "da svedanya" as a
 transcription of the Russian phrase of leave-taking.  Other times,
 you fail miserably, as when the early church missionaries to
 Ireland and Wales tried to transcribe what they heard, and came up
 with spellings that look impossible even centuries later, or when
 you try to transcribe Arabic or Hebrew (how do you transcribe a
 glottal stop, or the guttural sound that Germans write as Ch, but
 which sounds nothing like the initial or final sound of
 "church"?).

 I would be inclined to believe that whenever two literate cultures
 come into contact, each will maintain its own system of writing,
 and its own sound values for the glyphs, even if the spoken
 language itself is ultimately discarded.  Thus, at the fall of the
 Second Imperium, much of the bureaucratic paperwork was still done
 in the Vilani writing system, even if it may have sounded like
 badly accented Anglic when you tried to pronounce it.  Not to
 mention the notorious lack of speed with which bureaucracies tend
 to move, especially when it comes to replacing equipment...

T::>> I assume that there are five "Common Languages" in the late third imperium,
 ::>> nearly a milenium later than (IIUC) the question refers to... Old High
 ::>> Vilani, Solomani Anglic, Old Sylean, Galanglic, and Modern Vilani

T::>Actually, I think MT materials differentiated between assorted dialects
 ::>of Galanglic: Riftian (Deneb, etc.), Transform (Antares), um, ?Core?,
 ::>and Rim (Solomani Rim and Old Expanses).  Modern Vilani incorporates
 ::>many other influences, and Old High Vilani is the original, First-
 ::>Imperium dialect.  Old Sylean was never heard of until Lucan's
 ::>pronouncements (which I never quite understood).  Likewise, the Darmine
 ::>cultural region maintained its original language (which was from a
 ::>minor race with millenia of independent and uninfluenced development).

 Differentiating between various dialects of Galanglic could mean
 two different things.  You could have (a) an English-like system,
 where there are minor differences in sound values, spellings, and
 vocabularies (picture a Brooklynite speaking to an Australian from
 Melbourne), or (b) a Chinese-like situation, where the spoken
 language is incomprehensible from one region to another, but the
 written language is identical over the whole country.  For most
 adventuring parties, it probably won't matter; for something like
 the DGP Grand Tour, or the Arrival Vengeance mission, it becomes
 important.  I suspect that GDW took option (a); there was never
 anything during ArrVen that suggested that language was a problem.
 I would hope that there would be some discussion of this in
 Traveller when it is released, or in subsequent JTAS articles or
 game supplements.

T::>I'd very much like to see the Unifon alphabet.  How about a web page?
 ::>The illustrations probably are of Vilani (or, actually, just deliberately
 ::>"alien" so the artist doesn't have to distract the viewer with mundanities
 ::>like "Restrooms", "Customs", and such).

 Probably - but those mundanities are what gives those kinds of
 pictures verisimilitude - something I feel is very important.  But
 that's just my opinion.

T::>On this same note, has anyone else noticed that the Vilani language, as
 ::>presented in CT and MT materials, contains no letter "V"?  The published
 ::>language tables allow initial consonants K, G, M, D, L, SH, KH, N, S, P,
 ::>B, Z, and R.  I've always wondered if we should be talking about the
 ::>"Bilani" from "Bland" instead....  :-)

 Actually, that sound is somewhere between B and V, as we think of
 them, and there were two different transcription systems.  The one
 that gave us the name of the planet used a V; this was later
 changed when the language tables were drawn up.  Incidentally, I
 note for the record that the "B" in AAB stands for "Bilandin",
 so...

 Go look at some old maps of the Far East, spanning several
 decades.  You'll find that there's a city marked as the capital of
 China whose name is variously spelled "Peiping", "Peking", and
 "Beijing".  Which one is correct?

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for valuable prizes.



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 16:38:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #195

>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
>Subject: Wasted Bandwidth Flame, was (Re: TML msgs) (LONG)
>
>On  1 Jul 96 at 8:41, Joe Walsh spewed:
>
><Big SNIP>
>
>> agree."  Every time I post, I try to add something meaningful to the 
>> discussion.  I may or may not succeed, depending on your perspective, but 
>> that is always my attempt.
>
>Joe, I did not perceive your quotings as being out of line.  
>Sometimes I'll pick up something in mid thread, and somebody who 
>does useful quoting is a blessing then.

I agree here, too.  I appreciate the fact that someone else considers that I
may not have been keeping up with a thread long enough to respond.  I'm not
yet to the point that I say, "If Joe talks about it then its good enough for
me!!"  But I do appreciate the insight that I've seen from Joe and Others on
the list.  Joe, and others, represent to me the background in Classic
Traveller that I never had.  I also have found Joe's "House Rules" valuable,
although I would like to have a bound hardback copy, I'll have to settle for
the Email version.


>Much worse on bandwidth than people quoting each other has been the 
>topics of discussions recently, of which I have been guilty in the 
>past.  Has anybody here ever read the FAQ?????  I now understand why the 
>Virus and Rocks arguments are listed on there as done to death!

... Lots of stuff about current topics snipped ...

>Sorry to rage for a while, but this is really getting old...  :-(

I agree that arguement is getting us nowhere, and I regret that some folks
still insist on arguing on these topics, but I'm trying to understand what
the ANTI-VIRUS group is trying to say.  I'm not a computer guru, and I'm new
to the net (Less than a year), so my background doesn't help me in
understanding.  I've tried posting to private addresses, but most of the
time, my post doesn't get answered because the person is spending all their
time answering the srguements from the list, so I post to the List to get an
answer.  Sorry if this is bad.  I'll try to go back to private postings, but
if I don't get any answers, I'm gonna try here again.  I may be the
exception, but I WANT TO UNDERSTAND!!


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 17:47:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Brilliant Lances vs. Battle Rider

On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, James Lindsay wrote:
> What are these two games like?  Are they tactical games (small unit scale)
> or more like grand strategic simulators?

  I have no experience with BR, but I have BL. The BL rules are quite
close to the TNE rules, with some expansions. 
> 
> What scales do they use and do they account for the presence of PCs?  Do
> character skills come into effect?

  Individual characters that have appropriate skills can use them in lieu
of the game defaults for certain tasks. eg, PCs with sensor skills can
substitute their sensor skill, captains can use their tactics skills,
gunners can use their gunnery skills, etc.

> Are they fully compatible with each other and might they be compatible with
> T4 (that last question might be a little tricky) without major revisions?

   I *think* there are conversion charts for BL <-> BR.

> I am looking for a system that will recreate mostly Corsair activity, with
> to possible addition of two or three modestly-sized military actions over
> the course of the campaign.

  BL is quite good if all the players know the game, it is a bit
cumbersome to learn though. I personally dislike the way the game flows,
but it's way better (as far as realism goes) than most other space games
on the market.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 16:48:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Population of the Imperium

Bruce Johnson <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU> wrote:

>Using the numbers here, the total population of the Imperium is as
>follows:
>
>Total Population                28,051,512,234,733
>average population              3,992,529,495

The number DGP claimed was 15.77 trillion, pre-Rebellion.  Some of the
MT materials like _Survival Margin_ refer to the "fifteen trillion"
citizens of the Imperium in passing.  I think that this is comparable
to the population of Larry Niven's ringworld, which gives you an idea
how big *that* thing is.     

Unfortunately, a fair number of the on-line sector files are junk, as
Wildstar pointed out.  You have to examine them to determine just how
far they can be trusted -- there's some obvious problems.  So these
figures are hard to verify.  

To recap Wildstar's results for the Imperium:
  Population:                16.73 trillion (US)
  Gross Imperial Product:    TCr 317425   
  Imperial Mil Budget:       TCr   2195
  Planetary Army Budgets:    TCr   2237 (local)
  Planetary Navy Budgets:    TCr   4429 (local) 

I did a similar analysis, but from the point of view of using the WTH colony
rules in a rough manner to test it and previous estimates.  My results are
in the Missouri archive at

  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/archive/TNE/Imperial_Economies.txt

and treats the Imperium as a 15.77 trillion, tech-12 colony world, with the
average Imperial starport (assumed to be class-B).  I got results that were
in the same order of magnitude as Wildstar's, but with a slightly different
slant.  To sum up some relevant comparisons and data: 
  Population:               15.77 trillion (US)
  Gross Imperial Product:   TCr 538000 (TL12, port B credits)
  Military Personnel:       0.16 trillion (US) (1.0% of population)
    with civilian dependents, support: add 0.47 trillion (US) 
  Naval Personnel:          126 million (US) (0.08% of military) 
  Space units:              42000 "major", 126000 "minor"
  Military Base value:      TCr 8820
  Military Base upkeep:     TCr  423
  
All military figures include both Imperial and local forces.  Notice that
while the navy *looks* small, the ships are so expensive that it helps keep
the size of the service down.

If you adjust my GIP for Imperial (TL15, port A) credits, it's TCr 430400.
This makes GIP per capita about Cr 27300.  Wildstar figures Cr 19000. 
In today's USA, personal income averages about 80% of GDP per capita, so 
figure the average income (my figures) as Cr 21840.  In MegaTraveller, 
the annual upkeep for SocSt 7 is Cr 21000.  However, you could argue that
that should be *local* credits.  If you take my figures as a high estimate
and Wildstar's as a fairly conservative estimate, we're both in the right
ballpark.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #196
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 1 July 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 197

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Virus
         2. Re: But why?
         3. Re: Naval Ships in Milieu 0
         4. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
         5. Re: Fission Reactors
         6. Re: Survival Margin on Virus (long)
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #190
         8. Re: TL 4 computers
         9. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
        10. Re: [T96#187] Languages
        11. Re: Deckplans
        12. Re: Joe's Quotes
        13. Marines vs. Army
        14. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #195

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 14:56:31 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
 
>The recieveing computer may be dumb, but Virus is smart.  It may take 
>weeks for it to find a chink in the OS that allows it to take over.  
>Remember how Dulinor bled ships after the release? (Survival Margin)  
>Dulinor's own flagship made it back to Illiesh before Virus disabled it.

Actually Dulinor's ship made it back to Illiesh because the Virus on 
board let it.  This virus, realizing that Dulinor was taking him home 
tagged along and infected as many computers along the way as it could.

>This is my last post on the subject.  Mr. Erickson seems to firmly 
>believe that since he cannot conceive of how to do it, it isn't 
>possible.  Of course, that's what a computer professional in the 1940s 
>would have said if you described the PC I'm using right now.

Don't forget in the 30's they figured each and everyone of us would own a 
flying car etc, by 1975.  8)

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 15:01:53 -0700
Subject: Re: But why?

Larry Hadley wrote:

> Yep, us too. I find it so hard to believe that *everybody* would
> accept transponders so easily, and not try to get around it. Criminal
> types (ie, PCs <g>) will ALWAYS try to find ways around stuff like
> this, and there is NO WAY I'd let something like that have unrestricted
> access to my ship's systems precisely because it leaves it so wide
> open to outside shenanigans.

Absolutely, but you don't think the Zhodani, Solomani and Aslan didn't 
try that too?   And they've got way better resources than a group of 
PC's.  The thing was the Deyo circut had unlimited access, but do you 
think that the Imperium told anybody that?  Hell no.  They just said, "If 
you want to do buisness in the Imperium you'll have to have a regulation 
transponder attached to your ship.  All it does is broadcasts you ships 
identity to allow our customs inspectors to preform their duties with 
as little inconvenience to you.  Oh and by the way if you do try to 
tamper with it we'll be forced to blow you out of the sky the next time 
we encounter you.  Have a nice day."
 
Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: kstclair@cie-2.uoregon.edu (Kelly St. Clair)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 96 15:25:31 PDT
Subject: Re: Naval Ships in Milieu 0

Someone asks about naming prefixes for starships, Navy in particular.

My guess would be SFSS (Sylean Federation StarShip) or just SFS.
  For the Navy (once they get one), perhaps SFNS?



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 13:09:56 PST
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > 
> > Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:
> > 
> > > (I'm wearing my asbestos undies and kevlar vest so do you worst.)
> > 
> > Derek's head explodes, and as he slumps to the ground a loud Crack! is
> > heard in the distance.....
> > 
> > (Vest and undies don't help against snipers. They go for the head. And
> > with a .50 sniper rifle, nothing short of battle dress would help
> > anyway. :-)
> 
> Ahh Crap!!  The headless corpse drags itself into Marvin the Martian's 
> all powerful "Re-Integrator" and returns to life. 8)

I'm glad you didn't take it personally. I just couldn't resist. :-)

> I've always loved that device.  Marvin the Martian sits atop my monitor 
> as stares at me as I write all my letters.  Which explains a lot your 
> letters would be pretty strange too if you had to write them while 
> someone else was staring at you.

I have a toy racoon, and a large pink rabbit (looks like he's related
to the Energizer Bunny, if you get those commercials down there)
sitting in corners watching me. And my messages aren't strange. (yeah,
right...) 

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 13:14:36 PST
Subject: Re: Fission Reactors

Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@rt66.com> writes:

> > True. But we *are* talking about battle damage here. That makes a
> > difference. Fusion (at least any scale that'll fit into a ship) stops
> > if you break the reactor. Fission keeps going until you get the control
> > rods in, and can continue even then if things are messed up enough.
> 
> You won't need the control rods if you have a negative thermal
> coefficient pellet-bed reactor.  A friend of mine is working on these at
> lanl for space power applications.  The fuel is encased in tiny ceramic
> pellets that are doped with neutron moderators.  The neutron cross
> section of the pellet walls goes up with temp, so the reactor can't go
> above the limiting temp where the shell stops enough of the neutrons.
> These things really work, pretty cool.  They're not quite as good at 
> making power though since they run at lower temps.

But you still nedd *something* to tell the reactor "Ok, we don't need
any power right now, go to sleep" :-)

Whether you disperse the fuel a bit, or use control rods, you do need
to *do* something to shut the thing off.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 13:21:26 PST
Subject: Re: Survival Margin on Virus (long)

Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> writes:

> _Survival Margin_ Quotes on Virus.
> 
> 1. - "The Cymbeline chips reproduce by impressing their circuitry patterns
>          onto existing silicon chips,"

Ok. Though this is going to require either physical contact, *close*
proximity, or psi. The first two would seem to fit best with Signal GK.
And phsyical contact fits best of all.

> 5. - "In conversing, the chips interactively exchange information from
>          their dedicated memory chips, and from their own ship's main
>          computer core and databanks, to which the transponders have
>          unimpeded access."

"unimpeded access" to the *information* is not necessarily the same as
being able to execute there. And it likely isn't.

> 7. - "The SDG circuits were also exported vigorously, ....  Many
>          governments ... adapted the system for themselves rather than
>          carrying two seperate IFF systems."

Which is why the system isn't likely to require *write* access to the
ships computers, just read access. Otherwise the other governments
would be less than thrilled by the chips.

> 9. - "...main strengths of the virus ... ability to cut new circuitry,
>          i.e., embed itself in hardware, not just software. [Paragraph]
>          Upon entering a new system, the first thing that the virus
>          would do is ... cut its code into the computer's own circuitry."

Which fits my description quite well. 
 
> 10.- "While a virus-infected ship could also easily insert its code
>          into other ships by routine computer-controlled communications,
>          it was often more convenient to infect them by using the
>          constant transponder chatter."

"Easily" implies some *very* unlikely things about those communications.

> 12.- "One means of infection that was feared by the uninfected was via
>          their sensors.  ...this never happened.  ...Any such attempt
>          ... would take a very long time indeed."

Good! Though I'd say "is next to impossible".

> 13.- "...there would always be the computer system that was inaccessible
>          to any methon of infection.  In these cases, the virus' credo
>          was ... :'If I can't have it, no one can.'"

Good. At last a flat out statement that it *can't* infect everything,
and shouldn't be expected to.

> I'm interested to hear what the computer specialists among us have to say
> about the "facts" listed above from _Survival Margin_.

You've got my comments. Note that I only flat out disagree in two
places. I just think that their wording in #9 needs a lot of work. It
fits my model as well as the one I've been arguing about. It just
implies something that doesn't fit with #1 very well (unless you take
the psi option)

I also note that the quotes flat out contradict lot of the *pro* virus
comments.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 13:36:57 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #190

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> writes:

> >Derek's head explodes, and as he slumps to the ground a loud Crack! is
> >heard in the distance.....
> >
> >(Vest and undies don't help against snipers. They go for the head. And
> >with a .50 sniper rifle, nothing short of battle dress would help
> >anyway. :-)
> 
> Head shots are too much of a bitch.  The head moves too much to be a
> reliable target.  Aim center-mass.  A hit to the center chest with a 7.62mm,
> 11.4g bullet moving at 792 m/s will ruin your day.  Kevlar below level IIC
> will not stop it.

Check it out. Real sniper teams *do* go for head shots. And as I
understand it, they tend towards custom rifles with muzzle velocities
around 1500 m/s. Less drop, and they can shoot from farther out. 

Gives "reach out and touch someone" a whole new meaning.

BTW, I understand that some folks use the Barrett .50 cal as a sniper
weapon. That's what I assumed above. Like I said, it'd take nattele
dress to survive a hit from *that*. :-)

(God that rifle is a beautiful weapon. Pity it costs a small fortune)

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 14:01:04 PST
Subject: Re: TL 4 computers

Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> Craig Berry wrote:
> 
> >Actually, although Gibson and Stirling's SF novel based on this premise
> >was called "The Difference Engine," Babbage and Lovelace's fully
> >programmable design was called the "Analytical Engine."  The DE was a
> >specialized unit for calculating tables of numeric values using 
> >Nth-order differences -- hence the name.  I think the authors chose this 
> >title for the pun -- "See what a difference this would have made."
> > 
> >The AE was a fully general computer in the modern sense.  Interestingly,
> >it used separate program and data stores (so Virus couldn't eat it... 
> >;)).   Babbage did the hardware side, pushing the envelope of early 
> 
> Can you imagine if every Imperial starship had one of these things on 
> board?  8)
> 
> "Mr. Smee, four degrees to port after that pirate.  And get the men to 
> throw some more coal in the scuttle, the computers slowing down."

Well, actually, electric motors would work just fine to run these.

But picture a ship from some planet that made it into space on their
own, and uses analytical engines in the ships. Now it meets a Virus
infected ship (an unarmed one). Even if they have the radio hooked into
the AE somehow, it's gonna be a *long* time before the virus infects
*that* system. 

For even more fun, consider someplace that got mechanical computers
working and managed to get to micro-machining before getting to
semiconductors. They could have near nanotech level computers that were
purely mechanical, and smaller and faster than ours. We are *almost* to
the point where we could implement an AE in silicon with gears and cams
only microns across. 

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 96 14:34:09 PST
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> > Now, Player Characters on the other hand . . . :)
> 
> They just seem to attract it.  I played a GURP's campaign once which had 
> a disadvantage to explain this.  "Wierdness Magnet."  I think all PC's 
> have this to one extent or another.

We have (or had) a TV series here in the US based on a guy who was a
weirdness magnet. I think it was called "Strange Luck". They actually
handled the concept fairly well. 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 18:01:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: [T96#187] Languages

Quoth JEFF ZEITLIN, albeit more extensively:
> Not necessarily true - Consider: the evolution of the modern European
> alphabets have all been traced back to Phoenician, Aramaic, and Hebrew;
> yet none of those writing forms is recognizable to a modern reader....
> ...Also, the Latin alphabet is derived from the older Greek alphabet...
> as is the Cyrillic, yet any one of the three languages will be 
> unintelligible to anyone totally unschooled in it.

I'm not going to deal with the Cyrillic alphabet, since it, too, is a 
designed alphabet (vide St. Cyril).  As for your other examples, they're
irrelevant to the current discussion, since all such development took
place in pre-modern largely-illiterate societies.  All the "evolution"
and "derivation" took place via slow commercial and social contact, and
changes are easily propagated when the total number of literate citizens
lies somewhere in the hundreds, say, rather than the millions or billions.
So far as I can see, the greater the number of people who are literate,
the more resistant the underlying alphabet to change.  And the possibility
of change in the Galanglic alphabet, rather than the pre-modern development
_of_ that alphabet, was what the original question was about.

>  Moreover, the evolution of _all_ modern forms from the ancient
>  forms is really over the last 3,000 years; here, we're talking as
>  much more time, with the availability of totally alien writing
>  systems as well.

But, again, barring total loss of widespread literacy and education (which 
appears not to be the case for the Sylean Federation during the Long Night),
3,000 years of "modern" history should not show anywhere _near_ the amount
of change exhibited in 3,000 years of "pre-modern" history.  Do you see
the immense differences in social background?

> The First Imperium doubtless used Vilani script (for thousands of 
> years, IIRC); how likely is it that a _total_ conversion to Solomani 
> Anglic could be accomplished over a mere 400 years, especially when 
> you're dealing with at least 5,000 planets.

I never argued for a wholesale change by the entire populace to Anglic. My
argument was that the language of government and big business was likely
to become Anglic, and Anglic would supplant Vilani as a prime second language
for non-Vilani speakers.  Vilani would very likely survive on heavily-
populated industrial worlds taken over by the advancing Solomani, and
indeed would probably contribute heavily in terms of new vocabulary and
slang as the two cultures intertwined.  At least in the near-term, much
of the populace is likely to begin to gain familiarity with _both_ writing
systems.  But the deck is stacked in favor of Anglic if political, economic,
and military power remains with the Solomani overlords.

Mind you, Vilani will remain a potent and popular language on many worlds: 
we know the Solomani were stretched rather far in their occupation, and
even over four hundred years some of the coreward worlds where Vilani were
numerous and Solomani even scarcer may well have shifted naturally to using
Vilani completely for local use and translating interstellar edicts that
come down in Anglic.

I'm curious: where does the "at least 5,000 planets" come from?  (I don't
have my copy of Vilani & Vargr handy).  I've always suspected that the
Ziru Sirka was rather thinly spread, settling only the most hospitable
planets or those containing minor races which "had" to be put down. 
(That's the only way I've found to explain away the odd growth pattern
shown in canonical maps: the bulk of development stayed comfortably close
to Vland, without threading the Corridor isthmus, for example.  But a
significant number of minor races, contacted by traders prior to the
Vilani consolidation, forced Sharurshid (I believe the most rimward of
the bureaux) to expand farther and more rapidly than the other two.
But Vilani expansion, rather than language, is probably grist for another
thread.  (ANYTHING to save us from rock-dropping and Virus! :-)

>  All of the XVIIIc examples I can think of used a common alphabet,
>  so that part of your theory has no backing - nor disproof.

We should go look at the British occupation of Egypt and the other Arabic
countries.  Despite the presence of far more Arabic speakers, English was
the language of governance, and the Latin alphabet rather than the Arabic
the one for governmental decrees.  Had that situation persisted centuries
further, I suspect that English would have come to dominate more and more: 
a direct analog of the Anglic-Vilani situation.  At least, IMHO.  As you
say, the Solomani occupation and following Long Night lacks any good
historical precedent.

> I point out that Korea has been under Chinese suzerainty for most of 
> its existence, yet it was a king from the Medieval period or before 
> that created the modern Korean writing system (Hangul).  The Chinese 
> have been bureaucrats \par excellance et non-pareil\ for centuries; do 
> you not think that they would have tried to impose their writing system 
> on Korea?

I'm familiar with Hangul, though not with Korean history in detail.  Again,
it's a premodern situation without widespread public literacy and education
to swing the balance one way or the other.  I suspect that Chinese *was* 
the language to use to "get ahead" during the Chinese occupation... but 
once the foreign overlords were thrown out, Hangul was a fine gesture of 
native patriotism and a way to thumb the nose at the foreigners.  We've
seen very little of radical Vilani (aside from Zid Rachele and others who
surfaced in early pre-MT Digest Group publications), but I suspect that
the Syleans may well encounter their fair share of proud Vilani-speaking
worlds who overthrew their Ramshackle Empire governors.  Adventure seed!

> I would be inclined to believe that whenever two literate cultures
> come into contact, each will maintain its own system of writing,
> and its own sound values for the glyphs, even if the spoken
> language itself is ultimately discarded.  Thus, at the fall of the
> Second Imperium, much of the bureaucratic paperwork was still done
> in the Vilani writing system, even if it may have sounded like
> badly accented Anglic when you tried to pronounce it.  Not to
> mention the notorious lack of speed with which bureaucracies tend
> to move, especially when it comes to replacing equipment...

But technology would help, too, with replacing the written language!  I'm
sure, just for reasons of practicality, that new Solomani governors would
allow their subjects to fill out forms in their "usual" alphabet... but it
would be fairly trivial to reprogram the computers so that the stored
documents, which the (Solomani) governors will keep for access, hold the
Anglic transliterations/translations.  If the government refuses to change
from its native alphabet, and has technology to collect information in
foreign alphabets but then "correct" it, then even written Vilani has
little hope for survival, IMHO, over the course of several centuries,
let along millenia.  All that will remain is Anglicized vocabulary.

>  I would hope that there would be some discussion of this in
>  Traveller when it is released, or in subsequent JTAS articles or
>  game supplements.

I find language problems a splendid spur to role-playing.  I hope, too,
that we get at least a Journal article out of it!
 
> T::>On this same note, has anyone else noticed that the Vilani language, as
>  ::>presented in CT and MT materials, contains no letter "V"?  The published
>  ::>language tables allow initial consonants K, G, M, D, L, SH, KH, N, S, P,
>  ::>B, Z, and R.  I've always wondered if we should be talking about the
>  ::>"Bilani" from "Bland" instead....  :-)
> 
> Actually, that sound is somewhere between B and V, as we think of them, 
> and there were two different transcription systems.  The one that gave 
> us the name of the planet used a V; this was later changed when the 
> language tables were drawn up.  Incidentally, I note for the record 
> that the "B" in AAB stands for "Bilandin", so...

Yes, I'd wondered if that was a sign of a change in transliteration, but
hadn't remembered the AAB -- good catch!  I'm just amused that the change
was never mentioned in canonical Traveller (I presume your explanation
above is IYHO, unless you can provide a citation).

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:42:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Deckplans

On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Peter  H. Brenton wrote:

> For ye Windows folks (3.1 or better) the program Visio allows one to not
> only draw lines and such on a nice grid, it's main feature is the ability
> to draw 'objects' and use them over and over.  I have made objects for all
> the standard features of a starship (iris valves on floor, ceiling, wall;
> chairs, bunks, turrets, desks, etc.  Some were already in the
> office/layout object set)

I use Viso to design local and wide area computer networks, nice package.


Hmmmm...with a screen capture program....hmmmmm


------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 16:50:54 MST7
Subject: Re: Joe's Quotes

Joe sez'

> Now that I've received your email complaint regarding the amount of 
> quoting I do on TML, I'm beginning to wonder whether posting to these 
> lists is worth it at all. 

	It's worth it, Joe! I've never considered your posts to be wasted 
bandwidth, and I do hope you continue to contribute.

	Very few people on this list ever do a 100 line 'Me Too' quote...and 
most of the instances have been rapidly followed by a message to the 
effect of 'Sorry..I did that by accident'

	There is a lot of detailed point-counterpoint argument on this list, 
and sometimes, especially on the immortal threads, this <can> be 
incredibly tedious. Still, most of the time this list has a very 
high signal to noise ratio.  If anyone disbelieves me, go try 
rec.games.frp.* sometime...s/n runs around .001 sometimes!

	I think it's just that the list has been energized a great deal, 
both by the advent of summer (for those of us on an academic 
schedule) and because of everyone's obvious enthusiasm for the new 
version of the game.  It's been a very long time, if ever, that I've 
been subscribing to this list that I've ever seen the amount of 
traffic we've been seeing, I have <never> seen the quality of content 
we've been seeing...in between the immortal threads.  (Whatever 
happened to 'There can be only One' ???...Maybe that's where the 
Forward-observing, rock-throwing, feudal-technocrosizing Virus thread 
comes in;-)

My 0.02 Cr...

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 20:23:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Marines vs. Army

I was just reading a newsgroup today, and came across a point that some
people here would probably be interested in.

One of the reasons the Marines have the "everybody carries a rifle" rule
is because they have *no* logistical tail, this is covered by other
services. (eg, Navy provides transport and medical, while army provides
things like massed artillery and long-duration garrison support)

This doesn't mean Marines are more "elite", just that they have a
different mission and train/organise appropriately.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"The meanest bunch of mercs that ever wrecked a world for pay"



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:33:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #195

On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> I agree here, too.  I appreciate the fact that someone else considers that I
> may not have been keeping up with a thread long enough to respond.  I'm not
> yet to the point that I say, "If Joe talks about it then its good enough for
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> me!!"  But I do appreciate the insight that I've seen from Joe and Others on
  ^^^^

	God help us all if anyone ever gets to that point.

> the list.  Joe, and others, represent to me the background in Classic
> Traveller that I never had.  I also have found Joe's "House Rules" valuable,
> although I would like to have a bound hardback copy, I'll have to settle for
> the Email version.

Dunno about bound hardback copies, but I've been told by IG that I will 
have permission to publish material for T4.  At this point my wife and I are 
unsure what form those will take, though.  Initially, it will almost 
certainly be something less than hardback.  

BTW, lest anyone misunderstand, I've no plans to make oodles of money off 
of my ideas.  That's a pipe-dream in the world of RPGs for most people, 
really.  I just want to publish them, and make back what I put into 
them.  It'd be nice to have my ideas in print, and that is the 
essential impetus for me.  (Besides, I like having a set of rules to hold 
in my hand, add to my collection of Traveller material, etc. and a 
printout just isn't the same.  I figure there must be others like me.)

I was thinking along the lines of the type of books that used to be 
published for CT by Paranoia Press, FASA, and Gamelords Ltd (36-48 pp, 
digest-sized).  Price would be something like US $5.00.   (Assuming there 
is demand....I've done work on figuring the costs involved, but if I 
could sell several hundred, the cost structure will be better than if I 
see a demand for only a few, naturally.)

I haven't mentioned anything in the past because the plans weren't set - 
and still aren't, really.  I have material worked up, but a lot of it is 
pending getting my hands on a copy of T4.  I have world data, culture 
data, adventure outlines, etc. etc....but nowhere to put that world in 
the new milieu, for example.  (Same goes for character types - until I 
know for sure how IG is handling character creation, I can't come up with 
a final product.  Additional rules - same thing.)

Anyway, we'll see what happens.  It's still a dream at this point.  In 
another couple of months, though....who knows?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest            Tuesday, 2 July 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 198

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Wilds Ships
         2. Disposable PCs
         3. Re: Joe's Quotes
         4. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
         5. Re: Disposable PCs
         6. Re: More on cargo/freight
         7. Re: Snipers (was: Re Traveller-digest V1996 #190) 
         8. Mathematics in Traveller
         9. Virus via E-Mail
        10. Psionic Suppressions
        11. Ship Name and Deckplans
        12. Re: Joe's long post (was: Traveller-digest V1996 #197)
        13. Re: MMT Adventure Questions.
        14. Re: Fission Reactors\
        15. Re: But why?
        16. Re: Joe's Quotes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 01:07:17 GMT
Subject: Wilds Ships

On Jun 30, 1996 22:43:52, 'Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>' wrote: 
 
>Andrew Boulton wrote: 
> 
>> > A lot of ships in the wild's didn't.  That's why they survived the 
>> > collapse. 
>>  
>>Except the ones that were mistaken for pirates and destroyed or  
>>impounded. 
 
Or simply destroyed by rampaging Vampire ships. 
 
 
>This is true.  But there's one thing we have to remember.  They call it  
>"SPACE" because there's lots of it.  8) 
 
 
True, but every ship has to come to port sooner or later. 
That narrows things down a bit. 
 
 
 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 1 Jul 96 17:17:53 MS
Subject: Disposable PCs

Dave Golden said:
>Since I lost my group before they ever got
>anywhere near needing a decent explanation...

No, no, no, no... you are allowed to kill off the 
characters, but it is frowned upon to kill off the players.  

Bad Dave.  Baaad...  No biscuit.

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com
scharlto@rtd.com
I've never killed any of my players, and besides, they were asking for it...

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 20:21:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Joe's Quotes

On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> 	It's worth it, Joe! I've never considered your posts to be wasted 
> bandwidth, and I do hope you continue to contribute.

Bruce,

Arrghh!  When I wrote that, I didn't really think it through.  My intent 
was not to whine and say I'm going to take my ball and go.  Gadzooks.  
Serves me right for posting first thing in the morning.  

My usual rule is, no one knows when I read any given message, so if it 
upsets me, I wait a few hours until I can approach it calmly and 
rationally.  I didn't do that, and I'm suffering for it.  Please, 
everyone, just forget I said that.

Anyway, thank you for the nice comment!


> 	Very few people on this list ever do a 100 line 'Me Too' quote...and 
> most of the instances have been rapidly followed by a message to the 
> effect of 'Sorry..I did that by accident'

I've never seen that as a problem.  It's funny how mistaken I was about 
mailing lists until I subscribed to this one.  I thought it'd be a bunch 
of stuck-up snobs (else, why not have a newsgroup, which would allow 
unrestricted access to all?).  Although I wanted very badly to discuss 
Traveller, I resisted subscribing because of that mistaken belief.  Of 
course, I know now that there are many advantages of discussing things 
via a mailing list rather than a spam-prone newsgroup.  Subscribing to 
these lists has been an educational experience for me...on many levels.  


(Oh, and while I am on the topic of mistaken beliefs, I have been meaning 
to mention that one of the biggest reasons I didn't buy TNE was the names 
on the supplements.  I know, I was judging the book by its cover 
(literally!), but perhaps I wasn't the only prospective customer GDW 
missed because of that.  I saw "Fire, Fusion and Steel," "Brilliant 
Lances," and "Battle Riders," and got these respective impressions: 
"Cyberpunk," "Fantasy," "Fantasy."  Then I saw the "Vampire Fleets" 
supplement, and I was sure they'd completely perverted Traveller.  It 
seemed like they'd added every RPG fad that came along - cyberpunk, the 
renaissance in fantasy gaming that came with the new AD&D rules with 
their endless stream of "complete..." books, and the gothic horror fad.  
"Great, cyberpunk fantasy with vampires thrown in for good measure," I 
thought.  Of  course, none of those books were about any of those 
things.  But those titles made not even want to bother with reading the 
back of them, let alone open them up.  Just a cautionary tale.  Make it 
clear from the title what the subject matter is - even if that means 
renaming a plot device from "Vampire Fleets."  This all probably sounds 
quite silly to those of you where had actually purchased TNE and 
therefore knew the source of these terms and/or had faith enough to open 
the darned things up.   But, as I said, maybe others, unfamiliar with 
Traveller, reacted as I did.  Anyway...)

> traffic we've been seeing, I have <never> seen the quality of content 
> we've been seeing...in between the immortal threads.  (Whatever 

The content makes my jaw drop.  I never dreamed there were so many people 
so willing to put so much time into the game I love.  All the detail work 
for starships, missiles, population, taxation....wow!  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 01:28:04 GMT
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

On Mon, 01 Jul 96 14:34:09 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> We have (or had) a TV series here in the US based on a guy who was a
> weirdness magnet. I think it was called "Strange Luck". They actually
> handled the concept fairly well. 

Might not have it for long.  Its filmed up here in Vancouver and it doesn't
look like it will get a crack at season two.  Too bad, really.  Now
Sentinel, on the other hand, P-U.

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 21:38:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Disposable PCs

On 1 Jul 1996, Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:

> Dave Golden said:
> >Since I lost my group before they ever got
> >anywhere near needing a decent explanation...
> 
> No, no, no, no... you are allowed to kill off the 
> characters, but it is frowned upon to kill off the players.  


What??  WHAT???!!  I have been refing for 18 years and NOW you tell me
that when a character dies I am NOT supposed to kill the PLAYER TOO???

Jeeze...


Tom


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 19:19:17 -0700
Subject: Re: More on cargo/freight

>From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
>Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:15:05 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: More on cargo/freight

(snip)

>The kinu, a silicon-based lifeform found on an inner world of the Quopist
>system, has a feathery down composed of iridium/tungsten allow, density
>(allowing for air gaps) approximately 8 g/cm3.  Conversely, the Sees'nu
>idols are small (approx. 4 cm) figurines surrounded by a light wicker
>framework some 1.5 m across, decorated with haaneth blossoms and skra'ana
>hair, having a net density of about 1 g/cm3.  So yes, there's a big
>difference. :)
>
>Kinu-down pillows, by the way, find a ready market among the ascetic 
>monks of the Ecatl-Chalchihuitl Community, whose monasteries dot the 
>worlds of Lanth and Vilis subsectors.

You die.  You die *so* bad....  (For those who do not know, Craig is my
older brother.  He's been doing this to me for years.)

I know - when Lenore visits this summer, I'm going to teach my darling niece
- - your little angel - to sing "The Thread That Never Ends...."

...over and over again....

Or perhaps I'll just buy her Rolemaster.... >8-)

+----------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry     dberry@hooked.net |
|  Professional Driver - Traveller Guru  |
|   This is the thread that never ends,  |
|   It just goes on and on, my friend.   |
|  Some people started flaming it, not   |
|          knowing what it was,          |
|     And they'll continue flaming it    |
|         forever, just because          |
| This is the thread that never ends.... |
+----------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 19:20:58 -0700
Subject: Re: Snipers (was: Re Traveller-digest V1996 #190) 

This is drifting off topic, but...

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> writes:
>> >Derek's head explodes, and as he slumps to the ground a loud Crack! is
>> >heard in the distance.....
>> >
>> >(Vest and undies don't help against snipers. They go for the head. And
>> >with a .50 sniper rifle, nothing short of battle dress would help
>> >anyway. :-)
>> 
>> Head shots are too much of a bitch.  The head moves too much to be a
>> reliable target.  Aim center-mass.  A hit to the center chest with a 7.62mm,
>> 11.4g bullet moving at 792 m/s will ruin your day.  Kevlar below level IIC
>> will not stop it.
>
>Check it out. Real sniper teams *do* go for head shots. And as I
>understand it, they tend towards custom rifles with muzzle velocities
>around 1500 m/s. Less drop, and they can shoot from farther out. 
>
>Gives "reach out and touch someone" a whole new meaning.

Let's make a critical distinction here.  There is a world of difference
between police and military snipers.  Let's address military first.

Military snipers are trained in doing head shots.  They prefer not to.
They are, in a military situation, probably unnecessary.  Getting close
enough to be sure of one implies that you are in effective range of
the target and his friends' small arms; that is an undesirable state
for a military sniper.  Most prefer 400+ meter engagements if they are
dealing with groups of unfriendly targets.  That's a bit much for an
effective head shot under field conditions with uncertain range.
Any sniper round is going to penetrate current body armor even
at those ranges, and almost certainly incapacitate the target
enough to prevent accurate return fire at *least*.  Military snipers
usually play the law of averages and accept moderate lethality shots
in exchange for being able to do so many many times between mean
effective rounds of return fire.

Police snipers live and breathe head shots.  Their job is to handle
one situation basically, which is some armed nut or criminal who is
going to kill someone (hostage, police officer, whoever) if they don't
take the shot promptly.  Often, the target has a gun on a hostage.
Under those conditions, if you shoot him and he isn't dead right then,
he can still kill the hostage.  That more or less mandates head shots,
and not just any head shot.  And typical maximum ranges in urban and
suburban police / SWAT encounters are only a hundred meters or so
anyways so it's not that much of a problem to do the head shots.
While it isn't unknown, effective counterfire against police snipers
is very rare, and with all things considered they will take head shots
if they have to shoot, most of the time.

The different types of engagements and tactics affect the equipment used.
Police usually use bolt action, moderate caliber rifles (say, .308 Win,
though many are bigger) with large scopes, "bull" heavy barrels, and 
bipods.  These heavy rifles are specialized much like competition
target rifles for maximum accuracy and don't care that much about
weapon system weight.  Military use varieties of weapons, but usually
lighter and paradoxically for the relative engagement ranges less
precise/accurate rifles.  They have to lug the gun around out in the
field where the police don't have to carry it more than a block.
They also tend to stay away from gadgets, finely tuned rifles, etc.
and stick to more robust systems which will keep plugging away after
being covered in dust, shaken, and sitting out in the rain some.


- -george william herbert
gherbert@crl.com
Pacific Sound and Light's Motto:
	When in Danger, When in Doubt, Bring a Sniper, Cheat, and Scout


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 21:37:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Mathematics in Traveller

Hi,

>From the time I was shown how to figure probabilities for die rolls, I've 
loved doing that.  In fact, I've applied to role-playing games most of the 
stuff I learned in the probability and statistics courses I took.  You can 
learn some neat stuff that way.  For instance, based on the fact that 
Traveller uses six characteristics ranged initially from 2-12, I found 
that there are 1,771,561 different characteristic sets that may be rolled 
up.  When you extend the range to the sixteen different values each 
characteristic may take on during the course of the game, you find there 
are 16,777,216 different sets of characteristics possible.  Discounting 
the characters with 0 in any characteristic, you come up with 11,390,625 
possible characteristic sets.

There are other uses for mathematics in Traveller, of course.  As an 
example, in creating new rules it is handy to know the probabilities of 
any given value coming up on 2D6.  Any one of you could (and possibly 
have) come up with this stuff, of course.  But, since I have it handy, I 
thought it might be useful to share it.  Maybe someone out there has been 
itching to make some new rules for Traveller, and this will provide him 
or her with some useful information.  I keep these charts handy when I'm 
designing new systems or modifying old ones.

Here's some information on one of the standard Traveller tables, used for 
CT advanced character generation, TNE anagathic side effects, and many 
other things:

 2D		Probabilities
Roll	Fractional	Decimal		Percentage
  2	   1/36		 .0277		  2.77%
  3	   2/36		 .0555		  5.55%
  4	   3/36		 .0833		  8.33%
  5	   4/36		 .1111		 11.11%
  6        5/36          .1388           13.88%
  7        6/36          .1666           16.66%
  8        5/36          .1388           13.88%
  9        4/36          .1111		 11.11%
 10        3/36          .0833            8.33%
 11        2/36          .0555            5.55%
 12        1/36          .0277            2.77%


Notes:  If you add the decimal equivalents up, you'll get .9994.  For 
more accuracy, just extend the last number out to as many places as you 
like - they all repeat (ie, .0277 becomes .0277777777).  But I've found 
this is plenty of accuracy for the work I do.
	If you want to develop a table like those used for assignment 
determination in the advanced character generation systems, and you want 
a given assignment to have a probability of X, just pick some rolls which 
have probabilities which add up to X.  For example, if I want something 
to have a 50% chance of occurring, I might choose to put that result next to 
the rolls 3,6,7,8 which add up to a probability of .4997 (49.97%).  This 
makes your table look jumbled, with gaps between similar results, however.


Here's another one you may find useful when designing your own rules.  
It's the basis of task rolls and almost all the Traveller rules that 
aren't covered by the table above.  

 2D	       	Probabilities
Roll	Fractional	Decimal		Percentage
  2+	  36/36          1.000            100.00%
  3+      35/36          .9722             97.22%
  4+      33/36          .9166             91.66%
  5+      30/36          .8333             83.33%
  6+      26/36          .7222             72.22%
  7+      21/36          .5833             58.33%
  8+      15/36          .4166             41.66%
  9+      10/36          .2777             27.77%
 10+	   6/36          .1666             16.66%
 11+       3/36          .0833              8.33%
 12+	   1/36          .0277              2.77%
 
Notes:  Again, I truncated the decimal values.  I've never needed more 
accuracy, but if you do the same thing applies to this table as to the first 
one.  
	When designing a rule system based on this sort of die throw, 
remember to take into account the effects of any DMs you provide for.  If 
the average throw is going to have DM of +1, for example, it is necessary 
to allow for that skew (perhaps by increasing the die throw necessary, 
for instance, if having a common DM of +1 is important to the feel of the 
rule you are designing - otherwise, drop those DMs that are making it 
skewed.)


I hope this information will prove helpful.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:36:17 -0500
Subject: Virus via E-Mail

Actually Microsoft's Internet Explorer 3.0 (and almost any Java enabled
app) will download files from the Internet, and execute them (sometimes
without the user even knowing it took place.

As for Virus executing programs on another computer, most server these
days allow for remote execution of software.  For Example NT has a command
that will let you run a program on another system at a specified time and
date.
DCB
- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:41:10 -0500
Subject: Psionic Suppressions

Leonard,
  I wasn't saying the Psi Sup did not occur, merely that I had inferred
from the post that it was the technical aspect of blocking Psi from
another via some type of helmet that was a little far fetched.  I for one
do not like Psi in my game.  It doesn't make sense to me, and I usually
disallow it.  I cannot think of a way for it to work in my world view. 
That is one of the things I have a problem with Mileu 0 (Psi is still
OK).
DCB
- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:03:50 -0500
Subject: Ship Name and Deckplans

INS (Imperial Naval Ship) or ISS (Imperial Scout Ship) is the canon AFAIK,
although I rather like H.M.S. or H.I.M.S. (His/Her Imperial Majesty's
Ship)

Campaign Cartographer is a really great mapping program that comes with a
Traveller Style Scout Ship.  It saves to BMP or PCX format, and makes
wonderful maps.  I will try and put some on my Web Page after July 4th (I
am off that day)
- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 22:52:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Joe's long post (was: Traveller-digest V1996 #197)

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #195
>
>
>Dunno about bound hardback copies, but I've been told by IG that I will 
>have permission to publish material for T4.  At this point my wife and I are 

... Extremely RUDE, LONG, and OBNOXIOUS part snipped ...

>Anyway, we'll see what happens.  It's still a dream at this point.  In 
>another couple of months, though....who knows?
>

Dear God, I've created a monster!!!!

*sob, sob, weep*


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:12:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: MMT Adventure Questions.

Shadow spurt forth:
:Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net> writes:
:> > Hah!  Now that should get you all wondering! :-)
:>
:> Oldest trick in the book, that.  Two days before a gaming session, start
:> asking your players odd, disconnected questions..."Hey, what's the speed
:> of a shock wave in granite?" "How many wasp stings do you think it would
:> take to kill a human?"...drives 'em nuts. :)

:Or ask to look at their character and equipment sheets during the game,
:roll dice at odd moments and smirk a lot. :-)

   One of my favourite tricks is to ask _everybody_ for their dice during
   an encounter or tense situation, and roll 'em like coal down a chute!
   The look on their faces was usually quite gratifying, as long as you
   don't do it too often. <g>

   Random rolling to keep the players on their toes is SOP, of course.

:I once *seriously* considered buying a wastebasket size paper-shredder
:that was on sale *just* to be able to do this:

:Player: Ok, what happened?
:    Me: Let me see your character sheet...
:        <feed it to shredder as player stares at me... >

:But I figured I'd get lynched. :-)

    Heheh. We once had a D&D group that had problems with a particular
    thief character, one player got *real* fed up and hired a Hobbit
    assassin (this should date me _real_ bad) and asked him to "live"
    in his backpack for an adventure. The thief (as predicted) tried to
    pick his pack, and the assassin pops out and slits his throat (this is
    all done through notes and discussion with the GM beforehand) and
    promptly hides in the backpack again.

    GM politely asks the thief player for his character sheet, and proceeds
    with the gaming session. For the rest of the session the player sits
    there with a baffled look on his face, until his body was found.

    The funny part was almost _everybody_ was in on it, and NOBODY EVER told
    him what happened! <g>


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"The meanest bunch of mercs that ever wrecked a world for pay"



------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@rt66.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 23:39:38 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Fission Reactors\

<regarding neg. thermal coef. reactors>
 
> But you still nedd *something* to tell the reactor "Ok, we don't need
> any power right now, go to sleep" :-)
> 
> Whether you disperse the fuel a bit, or use control rods, you do need
> to *do* something to shut the thing off.

True.  I was talking about damage problems, mostly.  If I remember
right, the operating temp is ~2400K or so (I wouldn't bet money on my
memory :).  With a decent containment vessel you'd turn the power on and
off by turning the turbine on and off line.  I know what you mean,
though, there'd be an outside moderator to shut it down.

- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 96 00:39:55 -0600
Subject: Re: But why?

On 07/01/96 at 05:30 PM,  Larry Hadley
<lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> said:

>and :distrustful...so are my players..we NEVER liked transponders, we
>never :trusted transponders.  There's no way we'd give a transponder
>any :*real* access to the ship's systems, not in my universe anyway. 
><g>

>   Yep, us too. I find it so hard to believe that *everybody* would
>   accept transponders so easily, and not try to get around it.

Yeah, just because a GDW proclaimed that transponders were required
and then made the things tamper proof doesn't mean we have to play it
that way.  I liked, and I think the players did to, having Patrol
Boats pull the ship over for a spot check of their papers.  It always
gave them a chance to sound out a system..while trying to keep the
nosey agents from finding the contraband they always had aboard. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 22:56:23 -0800
Subject: Re: Joe's Quotes

On  1 Jul 96 at 16:50, Bruce Johnson spewed:

> 	I think it's just that the list has been energized a great deal, 
> both by the advent of summer (for those of us on an academic 
> schedule) and because of everyone's obvious enthusiasm for the new 
> version of the game.  It's been a very long time, if ever, that I've 
> been subscribing to this list that I've ever seen the amount of 
> traffic we've been seeing, I have <never> seen the quality of content 
> we've been seeing...in between the immortal threads.  (Whatever 
> happened to 'There can be only One' ???...Maybe that's where the 
> Forward-observing, rock-throwing, feudal-technocrosizing Virus thread 
> comes in;-)

I've got to agree here.  Despite my rantings on the previous post, 
the healthy argument on this list tells me that T4 has a very good 
chance of succeeding...

Well spoken, Bruce...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #198
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Traveller-digest            Tuesday, 2 July 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 199

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Disposable PCs
         2. Re: Virus Flame War, et. al
         3. Re: BL vs. BR
         4. Re: BL vs. BR
         5. Re: Survival Margin on Virus (not so long)
         6. RE: Fission reactors
         7. Re: Language questions
         8. Re: Deckplans
         9. Don Perrin Down Under
        10. Virus Flame War, et. al

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 23:18:48 -0800
Subject: Re: Disposable PCs

On  1 Jul 96 at 21:38, Tom Ellis spewed:

> What??  WHAT???!!  I have been refing for 18 years and NOW you tell me
> that when a character dies I am NOT supposed to kill the PLAYER TOO???

As a player of Tom's e-mail game, you all are my witnesses that Tom 
threatened me with physical violence if my character dies... :-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 01:56:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Virus Flame War, et. al

Thus spake shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson):
 
[D. Broussard mentions the Deyo chip vector of Virus infection]
 
> So far no problem
> 
> > Given the electronic nature of Virus, it once again is
> > possible that it could attach to another computer, and through remote
> > execution (done all the time BTW) could load up and execute a basic EGG if
> > you will that would begin the rudimentary life process of Virus. 
> 
> And here's the rub. There are systems where emote execution is *never*
> done. Most military systems for example. And even where it is done,
> there are safeguards. No rational system designer would design a system
> that would accept a transmission for an outside location and execute
> the result unconditionally. 

Today, maybe, but David Broussard was using information taken out of 
"Survival Margin."

> *Why* would a transponder be authorized to make a system it is attached
> to remotely execute code sent from the transponder? And why would the
> life support control computer or the weponry control systems have *any*
> system authorized to send them code to be remotely executed? (If I was
> a pirate, I'd *love* to find a ship setup that way. Get someone on
> board and you can take out weapon, life support, maybe even propulsion)

Well, the simplest answer to this question is:  because.  The whole point 
of developing the Deyo transponder suite was to have a transponder system 
that could not be spoofed.  The Imperium wanted little electronic 'honest 
brokers' to be sure that no (civilian) ship misrepresented itself.  To 
this end they not only developed the SDG-313F chips, which were more or 
less immune to unauthorized alteration (the 'black box' in which they 
were contained would fry itself if ever opened or disconnected).  In 
order to cut down on crimes of commerce (piracy, barratry, smuggling, and 
the like), it was also required that the transponder suite be wired into 
the ship's computer, which was in turn wired into every other shipboard 
system.  Although no mention was made in "Survival Margin" of the true 
nature of this connection, it could be inferred from the text that the 
link between central computer and transponder suite was more or less 
"read-only." (at least as originally manufactured)

As far as the central, unified nature of a ship's computer architecture 
goes, it's a valid assumption that there were controls in place 
restricting which users and which systems were able to influence other 
systems.  DGP's "Starship Operator's Handbook," another great source of 
canon concerning shipboard operations, mentions these security measures.  
Your scenario regarding the passenger who gains control of the ship via a 
remote terminal isn't too far-fetched; it was one of the best ways of 
hijacking a starship, and at least as much effort was spent preventing 
these sorts of takeovers as was preventing the kind where armed force is 
used first.  A hijacking battle could easily be fought on two fronts, one 
with the hijackers and the crew engaged in armed conflict, and the other 
with each side's most competent computer experts fighting for control of 
the ship's systems.

Now, getting back to Virus:  We're in agreement up to the point where an 
infected system subverts the operation of an SDG transponder suite and 
burns its own design into the poor little Deyo chips.  We're not talking 
about a bit of program code here (nor are we talking about an Evil Space 
Ghost, to quote another Debunker) -- we're talking about a silicon-based 
life form that's just used its own method of reproduction (the original 
Cymbeline predator's electromagnetic 'cuckoo-call') with the aid of 
man-made equipment.  So it's taken the transponder.  Now what?

The transponder's not just a computer that's running a new program.  It 
hasn't had new code loaded into memory and then executed -- it's actually 
been physically altered into a new device.  It's not just a horse by 
another name, it's something else entirely.  It's now a mule, a 
bloodthirsty, death-loving mule that sits back and plays the horse game, 
examining a computer system that at first it can only look at, but not 
touch.  The theory, as presented in "Survival Margin," is that it either 
finds and opening into the ship's computer, or it makes one.  Maybe it 
finds a bug like the old one in TRS-80 BASIC ("Sherman, set the Wayback 
Machine...") that dumps the user to the command prompt when he hits ENTER 
on a blank line when a numeric input was expected.  Maybe it sends 
voltage spikes to the interface until it gives up and becomes 
bi-directional.  Who knows?  This post is long enough already.
 
> So again we are back to the old "the Virus uses a back door that exists
> on all systems". And given even *recent* history, that's *stupid*. 

It may be stupid, but it's canon, unless you want to find and burn every 
extant copy of "Survival Margin."  Keep in mind that, despite other 
safegaurds against unauthorized entry, nobody really expected that the 
ship's transponder would ever do anything except inform the crew of 
invalid transponder returns and collate records on the ship's activities 
using its read-only link to the computer, so it's perhaps understandable 
that safeguards limiting the transponder's access were lax or 
non-existent.  Even the contemporary history of computer security 
includes examples of unforeseen weaknesses suddenly and disastrously 
exploited.  And nobody can dispute that history has a nasty tendency to 
repeat itself.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 02:12:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: BL vs. BR

Thus spake Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>:

After I mumbled something in response to:
 
> >> What are these two games like?  Are they tactical games (small unit 
> >> scale) or more like grand strategic simulators?
> 
> > Brilliant Lances is the more tactically-focussed game, while Battle
> > Rider is probably your 'grand strategic simulator.'
> 
> Untrue.  Both games use the same spatial, temporal, and unit scales.  

You know, I believe I said as much in the next paragraph, which you 
didn't quote.

> Both are purely tactical simulations.  Fifth Frontier War is an example 
> of a "grand strategic" game.  In general, 'tactics' describes how a 
> particular battle is fought, when opposing units move into engagement; 
> 'strategy' describes how forces are deployed so as to fight engagements 
> favorable to your objectives.  To use a real-world example, the decision 
> of where and when to stage the invasion of France in 1944 was strategic; 
> the process of actually taking the five beaches was tactical.

[snippage...]

What I meant to illustrate was the difference in scale between the two 
game systems, which I feel I managed effectively.  I am probably at least 
as guilty of getting the terms 'strategic' and 'tactical' wrong as the 
guy who asked the original question, which inferred that one game system 
was 'strategic,' while the other was 'tactical.'  I hope that you can 
forgive me for that.

For the rest of you reading this:  The above paragraph I quoted (that 
Craig Berry wrote) describing the terms 'strategic' and 'tactical' is 
correct, and you ought to refer to it if these terms confuse you.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 02:21:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: BL vs. BR

Thus spake jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay):
 
> Perhaps you can tell me what tonnage, armour, weaponry, etc. are "canon"
> for these big ships.  I want to begin a campaign shortly after T4 comes out
> and I don't really want to pick up BR just to see how TNE designs their
> capital ships (perhaps when IG designs a set of advanced ship combat rules,
> but not before then  8-)

It's hard to say, really.  All I ever used were the encounter tables in 
the TNE rulebook and the "Vampire Fleets" sourcebook.  Picking up BR 
won't give you any insight on how TNE designed large ships; they were all 
designed using the FF&S system.  What BR does is take the FF&S stats and 
cooks them down into a format that allows them to be used with its 
simplified combat system.  There's been some previous discussion on what 
tonnage ranges constituted battleships, cruisers, and whatnot (and these 
figures will vary between Milieus, as the recent discussions on Sylean 
warships bears out).  Ballpark figures (my own guesses) have battleships 
weighing in over 100,000 tons or so, cruisers filling the gap between 
about 10,000 tons and 100,000 tons, and frigates, corvettes and 
destroyers being 10,000 tons or less.  Carriers, I suppose, could be any 
damn size they wanted to be.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 02:39:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Survival Margin on Virus (not so long)

Thus spake: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson):
 
> Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> writes:
> 
> > _Survival Margin_ Quotes on Virus.

[...point-counterpoint discussion snipped to conserve bandwidth and sanity]
 
> > 13.- "...there would always be the computer system that was inaccessible
> >          to any methon of infection.  In these cases, the virus' credo
> >          was ... :'If I can't have it, no one can.'"
> 
> Good. At last a flat out statement that it *can't* infect everything,
> and shouldn't be expected to.

And this is from the canonical source on the Virus phenomenon.

> > I'm interested to hear what the computer specialists among us have to say
> > about the "facts" listed above from _Survival Margin_.
 
[Leonard's comments snipped -- you've already read them]
 
> I also note that the quotes flat out contradict lot of the *pro* virus
> comments.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:  If both sides had the full 
benefit of canonical (there's that word again!) information on the Virus 
phenomenon as presented in "Survival Margin," there'd be a lot less 
discussion on the subject.  People on both sides of the debate are guilty 
of using "facts" not supported by that document.

Oh, crud!  We're starting to agree on things!  Can it be that some 
rationality is finally starting to creep into the discussion, or could it 
be that there is actually some common ground (*gasp!*) between the Pro- 
and Anti-Virus camps?  I shudder to think...

So, how 'bout them rocks?

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 96 10:35:00 PDT
Subject: RE: Fission reactors

Cynthia wrote:
>>Ship-reactors do face one disaster that current reactors do not: they
>>fly, and can crash.

>Submarines swim, and can sink & be crushed. Real World(tm)

True as far as it goes.  But how many Real World nuclear powered
submarines are owned and operated by a disreputable bunch of
traders, wheelers and dealers?  How many Real World nuclear
powered subs could be owned and run by someone who stole
it or is skipping out on their ship financing payments?

The great difference between fission powered transport in the
world today, and fission powered transport in Traveller, is that
as far as I know today all such craft are in the control of the
military.  In Traveller they are in the control of a motley assortment
of weirdos and criminals, not to mention all the NPC's.  Do you
really think that military standards of maintenance and safety
will be adhered to?  I think it was Merrick who wrote in an
earlier post on this topic that the greatest problem with nuclear
safety is people, rather than technology.  I don't think that you
can really divorce the two as technology does not exist in a
vacuum, but as a tool or tools used by people.  History shows
that people unfortunately have a tendency to take short cuts
where safety is concerned, particularly where those short-cuts
lead to a financial saving.  As an example, look at the
decommissioned Russian nuclear subs slowly rusting away
in Vladivostok harbour.

I could certainly imagine many worlds wanting to take great
care that any ship being flown over their city which had a
fission reactor sitting in the middle of it met pretty rigorous
standards of inspection and safety, which of course, they would
need to enforce.  If those ships were piloted by  the average
group of PC's, I should imagine that a VERY close inspection
would be made.  If the reactor was not being adequately
maintained (or the PC's failed to bribe the inspectors/
inadvertently insulted them etc) the ship would be grounded.

My 2 fuel rods worth

Iain
iain.rowan@sunderland.ac.uk

------------------------------

From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 96 10:43:00 PDT
Subject: Re: Language questions

Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote
>Well, my question about language seems to have opened up a bit of a
>debate.  Part of the problem seems to have been that my question was a bit
>broad (didn't want to give away too much about the adventure :-).  Let me
>make a more specific query: If characters from the Sylean Federation
>(milieu 0) happened upon a base from the late Second Imperium/Rule of Man
>(i.e., just before the Long Night), would they be able to read the signs
>and button labels therein?

Galanglic remained broadly the same over the period of the Long Night,
with the exception of a few bizarre shifts in meaning.  One of which was the
surprising shift which meant the pre-Long Night phrase 'Press for
Self-Destruct' became transliterated as 'Coffee White, no Sugar'. Of
course, surprisingly few Syleans knew that...

Iain
iain.rowan@sunderland.ac.uk

------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:38:32 PDT
Subject: Re: Deckplans

Dave writes of Visio and Exporting:{snipped for bandwidth]

*Does it save to *anything* other than .vsd? Most Windows programs
will let you export to .wmf. And I'm *sure* it'll let you cut a drawing
and paste it into another program that DOES export to wmf.*

No Visio does not export to other formats. But, yes, I just exported a
Visio picture to Corel  3. Corel 3 exports a lot of formats. Visio
supports full OLE embedding. I use it in my work documents all the
time. I do not even keep native Visio documents any more. My drawings
are all embedded in Word or Ami Pro documents.

Checked out the reverse. Corel will also export to Visio. So at least
between these two products, there is compatibility. Corel objects will
UNGROUP in Visio, so cross usage is possible.

I use Corel when I need to add that autistic touch. :)  I also use
Corel 3 at home. I would be willing to swap my Corel symbology for
Visio symbology. (?)

Are there any other drawing program formats that poeple are using?

- --norm fenlason


------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:49:25 +1000
Subject: Don Perrin Down Under

I had a wonderfull talk today while he was in Sydney today (He was here 
with Margret Weis as part of a working holladay). His comments about 
traveller as well as his work with Margret on the Mag Force 7 books.

1. I asked him about the high tech in Traveller, pointing out the 
apparent technophobia in the Imperium around 1100. He replied that things 
like robots and other super advanced technolagy is possable but not 
economicly viable. Given the view that the massed labor pool of 
the Imperium makes better economic sence that high scale robotic 
manufacturing. He feels however that Imperium at Year 0 is about 
embracing the new technolagy of Fusion+, thruster plates et al. 

2. Skills. He mentioned that stats WILL play a part in skill resolution, 
unlike CT where combat was roll 8+, no matter if you where Arnie or 
Barnie (my words not his :-) ). He did state that the skill resolution 
will not be as convoluted as MegaTraveller.

3. QSDS/SSDS. He is quite happy the way this has turned out, especially 
when I mentioned that I am no gearhead and lothed FFS/MegaTraveller 
construvction rules. He also likes Stu Golden's comabat rules to go with 
these system design rules. He feels that Guy's QSDS will be appreciated 
by smucks like me.

4. Mail. When I gloated about the size of his mailbox when he goes back 
to the US, he gloated in turn. Apparently Margret's daughter goes through 
the e-mail at home (she is here in OZ too). At one stage he was getting 
150+ mail PLUS the Trav and GDW-beta list in digest form. 

5. The meeting of ImperialGames that Marc Miller mentioned has seemed to 
set the ground rules for T4. Don mentioned that some cannon might be 
changed, especially the TNE stuff. Virus may be on this hit list, as he 
mentioned that Virus limited the potential of a possable Millue 1200 body 
of work. This was the problem for FFS, as it was scewered towards 
post-Virus. Any FFS2 will be more Impirial centric. 

6. Don was fun to talk to (As was Margret , but that is not too relevent 
here worst luck). I had problems forgetting that Don is from Canada, so 
when I and others translated things into Miles and Farenhight, he had to 
remind us that he too uses a sensible scale of mesurement (apparently he 
drives a car with a km's speedomiter, and his Yank friends keep pointing 
to it and say "Your going 100?!?!" He loved our winter (sunny and about 
10-15 deg celcius), plugged his game store "The Game Guild - Lake Geneva 
HTTP://www.mag7.com" He is excited by T4, and his excitement was 
contagous. 

If you are an aussie, He will be going to conventions at Canberra and 
Melbourne, and is here for two weeks. Go talk to him, it is worth the 
admission fee (the book signing I went too was free [#smirk])


>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 07:56:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Virus Flame War, et. al

On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, Wes Payne wrote:
> It may be stupid, but it's canon, unless you want to find and burn every 
> extant copy of "Survival Margin."  Keep in mind that, despite other 

   (Pointing flamethrower)  "Hold up your copy, please" :)

   YOU bear in mind that all this business about the trasnponders STILL
doesn't explain how the TL6 agro-world's D spaceport traffic control
computer (without transponder, b/c it's not a starship) is infected by
Virus through the radar dish.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"The meanest bunch of mercs that ever wrecked a world for pay"




------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #199
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